#Attachments rebalance proposal

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

muted valley
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Together with @long pawn and @tired flame we created a proposal for an attachment rebalance, so everything is usable in one way or another. Due to huge amount of attachments in game, it's hard to come up with completely unique grips and barrels. The rebalance aims to somehow fit the new attachments looks, make each one viable and give more variety.
We decided to put barrels and grips into tiers.
Barrels:

  • Vertical reduction barrels
  • Horizontal reduction barrels
  • Jack of all Trades barrels
  • Range increasing barrels
  • Suppressors

Grips:

  • Vertical reduction grips
  • Horizontal reduction grips
  • Jack of all trades grips
  • Mobility grips, which we can divide into:
  • ADS grips (for people who love to use their sights)
  • Draw speed grips (greatly improves switching between your loadout stuff like Secondaries, RPG or C4)

In the future, range increasing barrels could affect damage fall-off. That would require some tweaking (it should be based on gun category).
For sniper mains we prepared something juicy - As you can see, Ranger gives you a lot of penalties BUT... it would affect bullet trails by either removing them OR halving the visibility time.

B-25 URK IRL is mostly used only on LMGs, for better comfort due to the box mags. That's why, to give some love to support players, we decided to prepare an optional change: Make B-25 URK LMGs only. In this configuration, B-25 URK will reduce both recoils a bit and give a big reload speed reduction. In exchange, draw speed will be bit slower and first shot kick will be increased.

Osprey would be available for all SMGs.

This rebalance, combined with @tired flame's #1173894704635580527 message rework would highly improve the balance of game.
In short: Everything would be viable in one way or another.

BARRELS.png grips.png
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To check how stats affect some of guns, we prepared some examples for the more popular weapons. Please download and zoom, we had to do it this way so automod doesn't 1984 us.

Examples_1.png
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Why tiered attachments and how would they work?
We decided to use tiered approach, due to sheer amount of attachments in game. It's kinda hard to come up with something to make every single one of them unique.
With this approach, the greater recoil reduction - the greater penalty. You can decide if you want huge recoil reduction at cost of your mobility, if you want the slightest reduction at little-to-none mobility penalties or if you want something in between.

Why B-25 URK should become LMGs only?
In reality, B-25 URK is used pretty much only on LMGs. It's comfortable for the user due to the Box Mag being in the way, making it uncomfortable (and sometimes impossible) to use other grips.
Also, if we assume that @tired flame's mags rework gets added, URK won't really be that needed on other guns + there are mobility based grips to make your overall gun handling better.
Addtional reason being: Support players getting some love.

Why horizontal reduction attachments have so many downsides?
As we all know, horizontal recoil is pretty much the most important stat in the game. It dictates how deadly your gun is (the lower it is, the easier it is to hit enemy, the easier it is to kill him) and how well can you full-auto the enemy at range. In current state of game, horizontal reduction attachments are the best ones, simply because of reasons above. To make other attachments more worth it, we gave Horizontal reduction attachments some penalties.

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How range increasing barrels would affect damage fall off?
With the increase of velocity added with the range increase barrels, your bullet can travel further. With this in mind, these barrels could either move the damage fall off start, damage fall of end or just shift them all.
First aproach: Damage fall off start moves, damage fall off end stays the same. You deal full damage for further range, but damage fall offs quicker.
Second approach: Damage fall off start stays the same, damage fall off end moves. Your damage reduction-over-range is lowered. So for example instead of dealing 1/3 of your damage at 100 meters, it would be 2/3.
Third approach: Both fall off stats move. Your overall damage-over-range is higher.

All assuming that Oki can and is willing to do so. If not - range increase barrels would just increase your velocity making it easier to hit enemies moving at range.

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How would ranger barrel work?
Ranger right now is in weird spot, because it is kinda useless, simply because it's sniper-limited attachment and because we have a lot of barrels in game, that do it's job better.
Sniper bullet trail is annoying for a big part of community, so we came up with it reducing the visibility of said trail.
In first aproach, bullet trail would just simply disappear.
In second approach, bullet trail visibility would be cut in half. According to Oki, it's visible for 4 seconds for player shooting and 2 seconds for enemy. This way it could be 2 seconds for player and 1 second for enemy or it could reduce only the visibility for enemy to 1 second.
As a payoff, your other stats are a bit worse, especially the muzzle flash and sound spread, so you're not completely invisible.

Ofc, assuming that Oki is willing to do something like this.

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A little problem with fall-off barrels
If the developer wants to add damage fall-off altering barrels or attachments, they must take into account the fact that you have weapons that have 10, 50, 150 and 600m damage fall-off weapons. You can’t make it a simple multiplier, as an example lets observe ARs, BRs and DMRs: Your average AR has a damage fall-off starting point of 50m, to make the attachment interesting you would want to at-least add 25m to that fall-off starting point, that would be a multiplier of 1.5 (50m x 1.5 = 75m starting point for damage fall-off). Now with that simple 1.5 multiplier you have made weapons that have 50m damage fall-off a great attachment, however that multiplier doesn’t transfer well over to BRs as 150m x 1.5 = 225m and that’s already really far for a damage fall-off starting point, now do the same with a DMR and you see how badly it scales. That 1.5x multiplier breaks sniper damage fall-off curves as that would push the damage ramp further which is not good for snipers.

To make a proper damage fall-off barrel:
Use the weapon category to decide how big a multiplier is as generally the same weapon category has the same/similar starting and ending points for damage fall-off, this way you avoid that problem of cross category scaling and breaking damage fall-off curves of snipers.

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Why add Osprey suppressor to other guns?
Osprey is rated for calibers from 9mm to .45 ACP. Since almost all SMGs and PDWs are either one of them, it should be possible for them to use it.
Yes, you should be able to use it on Scorpion Evo.

Why NT 556 isn't a suppressor even tho it is one in real life?
TLDR: We have no clue how to make it different from other supps.

long pawn
placid wedge
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Is there an indication on the spreadsheets as to what tier an attachment is, for comparisons sake?

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Yall been in the kitchen a minute Clap

long pawn
muted valley
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Yeah yeah, lemme just type it in wordpad so I can just copy-paste

placid wedge
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This post, and the images, are going to be hard for most people to digest just, as a warning LUL

tired flame
long pawn
steep kraken
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Thonk any reasoning for limiting URK to LMGs? (besides realism)

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There should still be reload time reducing grips for all weapon, no?

placid wedge
tired flame
muted valley
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BARRELS:
Jack of all Trades:

  • SDN-762 - tier 1
  • BASIC - tier 2
  • TACTICAL - tier 3

Vertical:

  • Compensator - Vertical recoil
  • DGN (will be called Dragon after update) - 1st shot kick
  • VAMB - a bit of both

Horizontal:

  • HEAVY - tier 3
  • MUZZLE BREAK - tier 2
  • FLASH HIDER - tier 1

Range Increase:

  • LONG BARREL - 1st shot kick + velocity
  • NT 556 - vertical recoil + velocity

SUPPRESSORS:

  • SHORT SUPPRESOR
  • LONG SUPPRESOR
  • OSPREY

Ranger - sniper exclusive

GRIPS:
Vertical:

  • Vertical Grip - vertical recoil
  • Stabil grip - 1st shot kick
  • Stubby grip - a bit of both

HORIZONTAL:

  • BCM Grip - tier 2
  • RK-6 Grip - tier 1

MOBILITY:

  • Vertical skeletal grip - mobility with a bit of vertical penalty
  • VTAC grip - mobility with a bit of horizontal penalty
  • Shift short angled grip - a bit of penalty to both, better mobility

ADS:

  • Magpul angled grip - horizontal oriented ADS
  • Angled grip - vertical oriented ADS

Jack of all trades:

  • HERA grip - tier 3
  • SE-5 grip - tier 2
  • FAB grip - tier 1

RELOAD

  • B-25 URK grip (with optional change to make it LMG only, note that mobility grips give tiny bit of reload bonus)
tired flame
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Yep there we go

steep kraken
muted valley
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B-25 URK can stay as all-guns grip, but the recoil reduction combined with reload bonus makes it too cracked

On the other hand, Support should get some love, so that's why we propose B-25 URK as LMGs only

placid wedge
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OOHHH So tiers are, stat groupings? I initially interpreted it as, a tier 1 attachment would be worse than a t2 attachment in terms of bonus added

tired flame
placid wedge
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And you want to unlock t2

tired flame
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Like ok

steep kraken
tired flame
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How do i put this

muted valley
placid wedge
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How do you say.. PepeLaugh

muted valley
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But if we combine this optional proposal with @tired flame mags rework, then there isn't really a need for B-25 URK + we have mobility based grips that improve your gun'n run playstyle, which reload bonus fits

steep kraken
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even then i would also include LSWs because i dont see the sense in making an attachment be available for only 2 whole guns in the game

muted valley
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Yeah that could work

steep kraken
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Welp, last attachment change certainly wasnt good imo, so very open for a new setup.

muted valley
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The thing we came up with aims for everything to be viable in one way or another

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so it isn't like current state of game where like 3-4 grips and barrels are viable and everything else is just unlock-forget type of stuff

tired flame
steep kraken
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muzzle break catErm

placid wedge
muted valley
placid wedge
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Its just more of both

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NODDERS got it

tired flame
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Yep

muted valley
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Like, we tried to think to make EVERYTHING unique, but it was impossible, literally ran out of idea with ~7ish attachment in category (7ish grip and 7ish barrel)

tired flame
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Of course some are unique while others allow more min maxxing

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Basically you have unique attachments and then the ones that allow for you to experiment with the whole min maxxing thing some like to do

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And as you may see we put up some potential ideas like with the ranger

muted valley
steep kraken
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did take a small look

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horizontal barrels certainly seem more differentiated than before

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the velocity barrels all seem meh

muted valley
steep kraken
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otherwise could defo be better than before Thonk

long pawn
steep kraken
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wasnt that literally you?

muted valley
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Velocity barrels need some Oki's love (dmg drop off fuckery to be better, but that would require some important changes and some thinking)

tired flame
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Yep

muted valley
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cuz in the current state of game there is no way to do it for every gun category differently, so Oki would have to modify the code a bit

tired flame
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We really couldnt do much about them
If we could fuck around with range/ falloff etc. it would be much better

steep kraken
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Thonk i guess then it would be fine, tho that makes me even more scared of open areas, some maps already suffer heavily under long range weapons

muted valley
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Yeah, but iirc Oki will kinda lower the range? At least I heard some ppl talk about this, like it was said on devcast or smth

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so that would compensate a bit

steep kraken
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would be good news

tired flame
steep kraken
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and i guess i am fine with the URK removal if oki really gives every weapon mag options

muted valley
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is it showing for everyone?

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cuz it shows me that it got flagged as spam and is red XD

empty epoch
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I see it

tired flame
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I mean it looks fine on my end

hushed barn
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Hahahahahah theyre doing it again

muted valley
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🙏 thanks Chum

steep kraken
hushed barn
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@warped sinew check it

steep kraken
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ya

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very interested to see what he thinks of this

hushed barn
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@long pawn on his way to give me deja vu

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Hell aren't these the same barrel groupings

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The grips are different but swap and ads were combined bc no one uses them (even now)

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Round 2 of underestimating how much people care about recoil

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Lmao the annihilation of muzzle break despite it being okay at best rn

stark merlin
long pawn
hushed barn
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U should post these on reddit and get deservingly ripped apart for how little effort was put into them

long pawn
hushed barn
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he doesn't remember

long pawn
empty epoch
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Wouldnt the whole point of posting it here be to get input from more people about it?

long pawn
hushed barn
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^

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we chillin

empty epoch
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You should only bully people in ways that make sense

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Logical consistency is important, otherwise we have nothing.

long pawn
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☝️ 🤓

steep kraken
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If I had to choose two people to do the attachment rework it would be diego and seggsy Thonk

long pawn
muted valley
long pawn
untold fog
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Alright buddy

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I ain't readin' all that

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explain it within 5 sentences

muted valley
long pawn
muted valley
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yes

untold fog
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I don't get it, but sure

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I'll upvote

muted valley
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gigachad

untold fog
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where's the guy with the CD profile picture, he made a bit long one too at some point

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Found it

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It's a while ago, but after the attachment rebalance, so it's still relevant

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I SUMMON @vital wagon FOR HIS ATTACHMENT OPINIONS

steep kraken
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the best would be to have a test server to be able to refine these ideas but that seems hella unlikely

sonic laurel
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As a QoL balance feature, I really don't think small little shroud optics (like red dots/holos and canted optics) should have any stat alterations.

They can't weigh more than a couple ounces TOPS, it's like having a few US quarters in your pocket.

tired flame
steep kraken
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if only why

tired flame
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This is the best 3 dudes could come up with with limited stats to work with

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Like if accuracy or control could do anything this would have been much easier

steep kraken
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no idea how its gonna play tho

empty epoch
steep kraken
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whoever came up with the old attachment rework must have also thought it to be a good idea yet i cant say that it was better than the previous state of attachments

long pawn
tired flame
tired flame
empty epoch
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that leaves plenty of room for uniqueness

muted valley
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most important stuff being recoil

empty epoch
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Like even if you do it in the most simple way of picking 2 stats for an attatchment to boost by some set percentage, you have 45 unique attatchments you can make

muted valley
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with 6 being viable and rest sucking

empty epoch
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well in that case you can just buff the percentage by which they improve stats until they're good

tired flame
empty epoch
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Yeah what would adding quality entail though?

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It would mean you change more stats for each attachment in different ways for each attachment, which gives even more opportunity for niches

tired flame
hushed barn
empty epoch
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Recoil (2 types), run speed, reload time, velocity, damage, muzzle flash, ads speed and draw speed are all relevant and could influence the usability of a attachement if the effects the attachment has on any of these was great enough

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So that's 36 unique attachments you can make in the simplest way possible

vital wagon
tired flame
empty epoch
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And that number grows exponentially as you increase the complexity of how you choose stats for each of them

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Ok then the number goes down to 28

tired flame
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Besides you are going into the territory of potential new attachments
While we have to work with the ones that already exist in the game and make it work

empty epoch
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No im not, you guys are saying that it's hard to make each attachment in the game currently unique because there arent enough stats to play with, thats just not true

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You can easily do it using a pretty simple algorithm. I'm not saying the algorithm is at all the best way to do it

muted valley
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We can make every single one of them unique, but then stats would have to be cracked beyond broken in some cases

empty epoch
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Why?

tired flame
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The less stats an attachement has the higher the effect it should be

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Given how much customisation is currently avaible in bbr

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Which literally boils down to barrels and grips for the most part

empty epoch
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Im not sure you guys understand what im saying

naive fox
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That's suprisingly high effort for this server

empty epoch
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Im not saying the way to do it would be to give each attachment 2 stats that it boosts, that would be an awful way to do it

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Im saying if you were to do it in that way, which produces the least number of combinations, you would still have more than enough unique stats for each attachment

muted valley
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most stats would need rework tho

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in case of accuracy that would fuck the game too badly

empty epoch
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Adding more variations (e.g. having some stats be lowered, having more than 2 stats effected by attachments, having variable number of stats effected by attachments) would only increase the amount of unique attachments you can make.

empty epoch
long pawn
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I love seeing old chum cooking in the suggestions

RDT_20240110_1153321143843628506664090.jpg
tropic knot
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oh god are people cooking some goofy ahh balancing again 💀

long pawn
tropic knot
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but as long as it isn't oki doing the cooking HyperXD

long pawn
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It's the same thing as the last one but with more people behind it HyperXD

tropic knot
muted valley
tropic knot
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my favorite polish bb eng yapper 🔥

tired flame
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With the funding from me, Markiplier

untold fog
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TBH as long as attachments have benefits and drawbacks it's fine. Attachments don't need to be useful on every gun tbh

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But we should unlock the useful ones FIRST, whether by letting us choose which ones or by customizing it for each gun

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I still think the heavy barrel and such should adjust the damage falloff range with tradeoffs in recoil or buffs in recoil respectively

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As long as each attachment does something clear and lets me tweak a guns performance in a way I like, but isn't just straight up the BEST CHOICE I'll be happy. Like heavy barrel before was required on a lot of guns simply because it broke a damage threshold. Having HB adjust the damage fallout end range/start range would instead benefit smgs and such more drastically than ARs, but NOT be the best choice necessarily

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TLDR: I didn't read the post lmao. So everything I'm saying may not matter

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Example, maybe on the scorpion I wanna slap a heavy barrel on it

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Because it's funny

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I think it's ok to have an attachment that lowers everything very slightly as well. It might be nice for some guns where I don't find anything too particularly bad. Maybe give an ADS debuff to compensate. Kind of like that one attachment does currently, but like barely

steep kraken
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all stats -1%

untold fog
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since you literally start with it lol

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lmao, -1% might not be good on some stuff too, so that might be funny

tired flame
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We bring out a few ideas as well as elaborate on some things further

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A summary cannot go really into detail, but the general gist is this:
We tried to make sure that no attachment was truly useless, stuff like basic barrel and RK-9 grip have more of a purpose now. Some are more unique and in general, now they allow for more min maxxing, which the current attachments lacked.

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Another thing is that we tried to make sure that the stats for the respective attachments actually made some sense. Empasis on some sense, since we really didn't know what to do with some of them.

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We asked Terminal for which attachment is which to help us with the whole "attachments making sense part"

ISMsQ4qvQF-1.png
naive fox
tired flame
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But overall, it should at the very least be better now.

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And before anyone points it out, yeah couple of attachments have different names now

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Dragon is DGN and Venom is VAMB

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Just for clarification

patent blaze
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Too much numbers in the pictures to read in one sitting
Still got my respects to work with this stuff ngl

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This is probably the stuff people really do ignore bc of how much thinking it has to be done

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Sadly to actually know if it works it has to be tested since guns have different stats and you can do some combinations that can make a attachment good or bad

hushed barn
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That should be an amazing attachment, it gives you reload, ADS, pretty sure there's draw speed in there someone

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not that popular w/ wider community

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it's niche af

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Most people prioritize the 2 recoils and sure, I'll give you reload speed and runspeed, the other stats are dump stats

untold fog
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Incorrect

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it should be VAMP

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like

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how did you mess that up Mr. Markiplier

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If we're going with fakey fake names they might as well be references 😔

hushed barn
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at best the rest are supplementary stats that people might prefer over another but if you give someone the choice between velocity/muzzleflash or recoil they pick recoil 90% of the time

untold fog
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@tired flame be better

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I actually like picking suppressors or the flash hider to hide muzzle flash

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I think the flash hider and suppressors shouldn't have a significant impact on the base abilities of the gun - maybe changing some things here and there

tired flame
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Larry did

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I think?

untold fog
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@jade inlet call it the vamp not the vamb

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I refuse to not die on this hill

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MAKE IT COOL DAMMIT

naive fox
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Kinda based

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Very stupid tho

untold fog
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😠

hushed barn
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Current attachments actually might have a better impact on the game with recoil getting kerplunked accross the board

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why run vamb if ur gun doesn't kick at all

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new meta for shift short angled comeback

naive fox
untold fog
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I mean tbh I usually just go for negating horizontal recoil 90% of the time

untold fog
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Little shit matters bro

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If we're going with fakey fake names they may as well be cool

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AK 47? More like Assault Kremlin 77

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M4? More like Freedom4All

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Kidding aside, that's literally the only one I have a problem with lol, vamp instead of vamb plz Larry

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I'll even buy Oki a copy of the game so he can actually play it if you do

tired flame
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Well like i said
We just asked termi for names cause lord how the hell would we know what the 2 spiral lookin things were

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And thats how we found out they are getting slight name change

empty epoch
hushed barn
empty epoch
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In this case if you wanted to give the shift more of an identity you could make it's draw speed even better and make its ads bonus even better.

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Think about it in extremes. If shift were to make ADS speed and draw speed instant, it would probably be way over powered, but right now nobody uses it because those two things arent valued much

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So the goal is to find the sweet spot

hushed barn
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sure, but at the same time it'd be both niche since some guns just don't need that kind of draw speed or ADS speed and some guns would become OP, as well as what point is that sweet spot at?

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like, velocity buffs

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those gigabuff snipers, on every other gun it's whatever

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unless you want to restrict attachments to some guns, which is its own can of worms

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especially since we're currently looking at % based modifiers

empty epoch
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You can just make attachments effect different guns differently

tired flame
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Not really how bbr works afaik
Would require a lot of shenanigans for it to work

hushed barn
empty epoch
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If you dont wanna do that just choose the stats that find the sweetspot for the gun that benefitss the most with them. This way there are different attachments that are meta with different guns.

hushed barn
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which is IMO where we're currently at

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SMGs don't need recoil barrels or grips, so BURK comes out on top

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LMGs benefit from swap speed and ADS, so Shift Short Angled

tired flame
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We already proposed B25 to be LMG/LSW only attachment
Given its lore accurate and would greatly benefit support

hushed barn
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in that regard numbers tweaks would help

empty epoch
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Yeah i dont think there's much of a problem with attachments as they are right now, other than the fact that they kinda dont have much effect

tired flame
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Of course B25 on LMG/LSW will be bit different, not exactly copy paste from what we proposed rn

hushed barn
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could prolly just double everything's values

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see what happens

empty epoch
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thats a good idea

hushed barn
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so much stuff that a test build would be cool on

warped sinew
steep kraken
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this suggestion

signal elm
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Bipod?

tired flame
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It honestly requires no change

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Other than getting rid of its jank

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But statswise yeah

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No change needed

frigid vigil
tired flame
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Yapping for yapping sake

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Truly the feeling of all time

muted valley
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@long pawn it would save the game right?

long pawn
tired flame
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Dead game

muted valley
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game as dead as it's balance

raw plank
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Jesus this is ass, the king of "I made it look like i did a lot of work but there's nothing to show". Talk about bias balancing LOL.

long pawn
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Bless me with your amazing knowledge king of "I have 10 years of experience, but I will not mention any project i was working on"

tired flame
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Eh i mean we had very few things to work with anyways
And no proper way to test and see how it would actually look like

long pawn
tired flame
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We just kinda have stats in its purest form

long pawn
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R6 attachments goated with the purpose

tired flame
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If only we had more stats to work with

long pawn
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If only we could get rid of like half of the attachments

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And from there add purposeful attachments

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And not add soulless fodder

muted valley
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just do it like BF4 did

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4 types of attachments + rest being reskins

tired flame
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That or give more stats to work with
By that i mean make controland accuracy actually do something

patent blaze
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If we only had a testing eviroment

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Like a branch to test new stuff before gets added

untold fog
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Oki live reaction

muted valley
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#FixAttachments
#OtherAttachmentsMatter

tired flame
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Correct