Map and Gun Balance

[twin sky]

Some maps and guns are just objectively better. With some maps like Basra there is almost no cover between objectives, and it is incredibly hard to avoid snipers. This is a thread to talk about possible balance changes.

[tough tiger]

Just make snipers do no damage to anything but the head

the devs are not brave enough to do this, they know redditors will be angry

[opaque dirge]

makes post
complains
doesn’t make a suggestion
will wonder why the post is joked about

[twin sky]

Literally did. Bullet drop

[twin sky]

Maybe be literate next time

2nd sentence

[opaque dirge]

That’s not a suggestion, that’s an “if” statement

[tough tiger]

L Blank

L Sniper

W Flare38

[opaque dirge]

Your post might’ve worked as an opener to a suggestion post about bullet drop

[night dragon]

but there is bullet drop already no?

[twin sky]

I don’t think so, but if there is, it is almost unnoticeable unless far enough away(other side of the map) so that the scope movement would already fix it.

[tough tiger]

There is bullet drop, that's what zeroing is for.

Its pretty unnoticable with the m200 in closer ranges though

[twin sky]

That’s what I mean.

With the 1 shot headshots, there is no point using anything else unless it is a very close range map full of cover with no high ground.

[twin sky]

I’ll fix it

[tough tiger]

What do you mean?

Like there are maps that you can only snipe on?

[twin sky]

Sorry that I don’t know the name, but there is a map that is very desert like that only really has brush cover on most of it.

[opaque dirge]

Sandy Sunset

Large desert map with cliffs and a city in the middle?

[twin sky]

Maybe? I don’t really know, let me check.

Wait no, I remember liking that map bc I could just play in the city if I didn’t want to snipe.

[tough tiger]

Usually there are supposed to be sections of the map that are good for cqc and sections that are good for sniping. The idea is that if you wanna do either you stick to those sections mainly, I think.

[opaque dirge]

battlebitstats dot com has map list

[twin sky]

I agree with you in general, but on the beach map with the lighthouse, if you want to help your team you have to be in areas with 0 cover from snipers.

[tough tiger]

basra?

[night dragon]

sounds like new basra

[tough tiger]

yeah basra is the worst map in the game right now for exactly this reason

[twin sky]

The capture points have not that much cover between them exept for the area with the storage crates

[tough tiger]

Its kind of an outlier, which is surprising considering how bad all the other maps are

[twin sky]

Lmao

[night dragon]

or is it zalfi?

since people can just shoot from islands

[tough tiger]

no hes definitely talking about basra

[twin sky]

I think zalfi has enough bushes that sniping isn’t too much of a problem.

Let me look up some images

[night dragon]

imo I think basra had good enough cover on the points themselves but moving between them there's a lot of open angles and space

[twin sky]

Yah

[night dragon]

unless you were on the boat which anyone can just plink you lol

[twin sky]

That’s what I think too

Basically on that map I only really stick to inside the large freighter because it is pretty contested.

[night dragon]

Yeh otherwise it is open as heck

[twin sky]

It seems like on zalfi there is enough cover unless you try to flank around the edge.

[night dragon]

edge is death

[twin sky]

Pretty much

[night dragon]

you have a different type of "sniper" ones that have RPGs lmao

[twin sky]

Lmao

Just wanted to say, for blank and anyone else that saw my original post before the edit, I was a bit mad when I wrote that from playing an hour straight of people picking sniper heaven maps in a row.

Also, something that I find funny is that when you shoot a sniper, there is a trail to let your enemies know where you are(good balancing), but it make it literally look like I am getting lazered from across the map.

[tough tiger]

For the most part if you like cqc and not getting destroyed by snipers you should probably try Domination or Frontline servers. There are still snipers but most of the time you can avoid them since the points are closer together so there's cover between them.

[twin sky]

Ok, I’ll try that.

Thx

[night dragon]

Also utilise building

I've seen people just repeatedly dying to snipers when they could've just built a barricade lol

[twin sky]

Building can sometimes help, but it also can make for sniper positions that are unbeatable. The wall with peaking holes in it for example

[tough tiger]

Building is pretty awful as it stands if you want to go around and do stuff, instead of sitting in one place not focusing on killing people

[twin sky]

^

[tough tiger]

If it gets really bad I sometimes equip smokes or a smoke launcher

[night dragon]

it's enough to discourage them and get some breathing room I suppose lol

[tough tiger]

The problem is that you have to play support to build effectively, and then you spend atleast 10 of the 40 minutes in a game just building in places that may or may not be effective against snipers, who can just change the angle they're watching

[twin sky]

That’s true

[tough tiger]

It's nice on the waki bridge when teammates do it, but building out in the open wont get you almost anywhere

[twin sky]

I only really play medic and recon(if opposing recon players are pissing me off or if I want to drone with mines), but I don’t really play anything else.

It’s just more fun that way bc with medic you can carry

[night dragon]

yeh out in the open is pretty helpless. but sometimes building is just enough to ruin their sightline

[twin sky]

And sniper drone + mines = funny

[night dragon]

and I feel some locations the sniper will have to give up elevation or some advantage just to get a better angle at you

[twin sky]

The one spot that I 100% just hate with a passion is the lighthouse.

[night dragon]

Just blow it up lmao

[twin sky]

Lmao, true

I’ll try that next time.

What would be most affective? C4 or rockets?

[night dragon]

Probably C4

[twin sky]

Ok

[night dragon]

Better ask the home renovation experts because I am not one

[twin sky]

Lmao

Imma hop off now, but thx for the counter sniper ideas. 👍

[plucky hemlock]

snipers honestly r weaker now than before

positioning is big in battlebit.. you die acrossmap because you get caught out of position by a camper

while you cannot do anything about the camping recons (campers are in every game, have been for decades) you can do something about your positioning and movement

[torpid lodge]

brother do not cook again

this guy wants snipers nerfed

maybe try not standing in the open?

[plucky hemlock]

snipers are still bad...

[lucid path]

Add more bullet drop mfs when zeroing walks into the room

[plucky hemlock]

honestly he probably never heard of zeroing

can't blame him. you never get any indication of being able to do it

i figured it out day 1 on accident...

[torpid lodge]

if bro thinks snipers are cheating wait until he finds out about dmrs

[night dragon]

legit why are people complaining about DMRs, and it's probably only the m110

[plucky hemlock]

mostly because of m110 being 2 shot across map

[night dragon]

that probably explains it, I use the other DMRs and don't feel like they're broken or like I am dunking on fellow battlebit-ers

[plucky hemlock]

it is literally only the m110

[night dragon]

people gotta be more specific honestly.. I remembered grinding the heavy barrel for m110 before the dmr buffs lmao

[tough tiger]

That never matters at all

All that matters is how it feels to die to them and how often you die to them

[night dragon]

player perception after all

I die to the m200 more than DMRs pls nerf snipers more : (

that was sarcasm if it wasn't obvious lmao

[tough tiger]

A big part of how bad it feels is the percieved skill of the person who killed you

It feels super bad to die to a recon using an AK not because it's particularly good, but because you know that if a Recon is using an AK they really really suck at the game

Same with DMRs. If someone's using a dmr its probably because they cant aim with a sniper.

[plucky hemlock]

if someone is using LMG they're a wholesome support looking to make some happy funny battlebit moments...

[tough tiger]

It would be cool to see a notification when you die of how far the shot that killed you was and if it was a headshot

[tough tiger]

Average lmg user accuracy has to be like 5%

or lower

[lucid path]

Or DMRs are better than snipers

[tough tiger]

for people who cant aim yeah

[night dragon]

I am getting called out

Tbh if I play recon it has to be for the basrs

[plucky hemlock]

if you get frustrated at not being able to hit your shots with a dmr or sniper just play smg and cqc... you will hit everything

and kill nothing

[night dragon]

Gotta join in with the turbo Frontline

[plucky hemlock]

i played frontline since i discovered it was a crazy gamemode hundreds of hours ago

basically smg only too

came back to sniper for one stupid basra rework and chained headshots on m200

🤷

[night dragon]

Being an smg turbo killstreaker is the secret to improving sniping?! No way

I do enjoy the occasional frontline

[plucky hemlock]

improving mouse control

not necessarily smg turbo kills...

[night dragon]

Sorry mostly joking about the whole turbo smg thing. Yeah Frontline can be good for training mouse control

I feel that though learning to lead and predict is the challenge of sniping

[plucky hemlock]

not even that when l96 and m200 are the only useful (good) snipers with insanely high velocity

[night dragon]

Maybe I just struggle with that then.

[plucky hemlock]

its more of just target the solitary snipers

[night dragon]

People are always twitching and moving up and down

[plucky hemlock]

snipers in bbr arent meant to counter airstrafe, they are meant to punish people out of position

[plucky hemlock]

yeah + terrible map design = aim for stationary noobs

free kills

[night dragon]

It used to be soo free now people actually see your trail and move somewhere else lol

Anyway this is derailing the thread

[plucky hemlock]

-> we need to rebuff snipers

and fix the maps

imo a big reason snipers r so annoying is because of the map design

[tough tiger]

just shoot at the 150 people in every lobby that dont move

[plucky hemlock]

@tough tiger probably sick and tired of me complaining about maps by now

[tough tiger]

Just looking at the number of snipers on each team kinda tells you the sniper nerfs didnt do much to make it less fun

Personally I havent noticed people reacting to my shots more when I snipe

[plucky hemlock]

the average battlebit player has the situational awareness of a cabbage

see this clip https://streamable.com/ylpltl

what are they doin 😭

[night dragon]

The sniper wep class also needs some balancing

[night dragon]

No one expects a dude spraying in the middle of the road xd

[plucky hemlock]

if you look at where they are standing 😭

[night dragon]

Poor dude was bandaging

[plucky hemlock]

hackusated me too

i clipped him twice..

[night dragon]

Bro just doesn't know how long a p90 mag is

Also bandaging makes noise

[plucky hemlock]

WHAT

[night dragon]

Yeah the bandage ripping sound

[plucky hemlock]

i hda no idea

[night dragon]

Enemies can hear it

[plucky hemlock]

wtf 💀

[night dragon]

Or I am crazy

[modern peak]

perhaps the snipers don't need more debuffing but instead the maps need to have more locations that can't be seen by snipers. The massive windmills at Valley are a great example because you can see upwards of 1800m away where they have very little cover.

[somber crest]

This thread is correct, snipers are OP and ruin games, maps and mechanics favor snipers. Anyone who disagrees is huffing weapons-grade copium

[floral star]

Almost every balancing thread can be broken down to poor map design and/or the lack of class limits. 🐴

[somber crest]

class limits are inherently a terrible way of balancing

[floral star]

They are only terrible because it makes people mad, not because it does not make sense.

[somber crest]

A much better way to do it would be to use current mechanics: An overall lowering of velocity, increased bullet drop, and increased inaccuracy at extreme ranges

[somber crest]

It's a kind of brick-to-the-face way of balancing, it doesn't actually resolve the issues of the class, it just forces them to be less present

and forces people who actually want to play them to bounce between servers to find an open spot

the problem with a 100% accurate weapon, is it becomes pinpoint accurate at any range

Nothing should do that, it's inherently gamebreaking

[lime wasp]

another way to solve this issue is to add class limit

[somber crest]

it doesn't solve the issue tho? You'll still get beamed across the map

[lime wasp]

what's the issue

the gun? or the amount of ppl holding the gun?

[somber crest]

the gun

the latter begets the former

You make sniping worse (objectively) and you'll find way fewer people doing it

[floral star]

🐴 lol

[torpid lodge]

how many times do you see snipers at the top of the leaderboard

[lime wasp]

so you hate us?

[somber crest]

Hardly ever, but score =/= effect on the game

[tough tiger]

I dont think that most snipers care at all about how effective they are for the game

They just like sniping

[somber crest]

This

They're not hated because they're effective, they're hated because they're annoying

[floral star]

Lots of annoying playstyles in this game, and most will probably change this next update with the shit oki's trying to do.

[torpid lodge]

what youre saying is that being annoying means its op?

[somber crest]

Yea but there's a range to annoying right?

[floral star]

Not really, you can be cqc annoying

[somber crest]

Some can be annoying but they gotta be close, snipers an be annoying across literal swathes of the map

[floral star]

It's like horse-shoe theory.

[somber crest]

There's a soft-power of area denial thats kind of being ignored here, which is one of the main issues.

Sniping is easy in BBR, you can sit yourself up somewhere and cover vast tracts of the map

[floral star]

Map Dev issue.

[somber crest]

Yes definitely

but also sniper gunplay issue, it literally shouldn't be that easy

[floral star]

You are not going to be able to persuade anyone that it should not be easy.

[torpid lodge]

easy at achieveing what exactly?

[somber crest]

hits

[torpid lodge]

because from what you said snipers are 1. not good at getting high scores/kills but they are at the same time 2. annoying because sniping is easy?

[somber crest]

dunno where you pulled that first part from

literally didn't say that

you're making this weird conjecture that score means something

or score directly correlates to kills

[torpid lodge]

kills contribute to the majority of the scores one can get besides challenges

[somber crest]

No, no they don't

Look at the scoreboard next time and check play kills vs score, it's not that large a percentage

captures/revives/assists/supplies/heals/transport do a surprising amount, none of which a sniper does

so their scores are generally lower, even if they have a high kill count, which they usually don't because it's a lower-kill class by its very nature

But kills aren't the problem, it's the ease in which snipers can disrupt the game whilst allowing little counterplay (the only counterplay is tank or another sniper)

[floral star]

People standing still, not building cover, never using smokes.. ect ect.. make sniping easy,
You'd have to nerf the gun to near useless and people will still find a way to complain about them being annoying.

[somber crest]

I mean thats very strawman

[torpid lodge]

finding cover and avoiding line of sight is a direct counter play, keeping yourself on the move would avoid you 90% of the long range sniper shots

[somber crest]

What about Sandy Sunset? Can literally be on any one of the edges and have almost full visibility of over half the map, with an M200 that's a 1-shot on anyone bar EXO heavy

[wispy otter]

• u can crash in them on quad

[somber crest]

It gets even easier as grass derenders at anything short of close range

[torpid lodge]

you are assuming that they hit you from over 1000 meters, which is nigh impossible when you are moving around and not being a static object due to the bullet velocity

[somber crest]

Ah so, that means you have to never stop moving right?

[torpid lodge]

its not the snipers fault that you are standing in the open waiting for a headshot

[somber crest]

If you stop moving, that's your own fault?

[floral star]

yes

[torpid lodge]

thats not what i said

[somber crest]

So just, never stop moving?

You're both braindead

[torpid lodge]

i said if you stand in the open you are just asking for a sniper shot

[somber crest]

Enjoy playing life in easy mode

[wispy otter]

write whats wrong: no
write ur braindead: yes

[somber crest]

What about when you're not standing in the open and get beamed by a 100% accurate weapon thats easy to aim?

[torpid lodge]

that means you are hiding in cover?

[somber crest]

Could be, could be walking from one area to another, it's impossible (mostly due to map design) to be completely in cover at all times

Not that you should be btw

[torpid lodge]

which is why you move when you are in the open, to avoid getting shot

[somber crest]

Leading targets in BBR is not difficult

[wispy otter]

have u ever played sniper? its nearly impossible to kill 1k+ metres headshot moving target, especially 4 afk noobs on spawn, they can hit headshot in 1/40

[somber crest]

especially with M200

[torpid lodge]

leading targets from over 1000 meters is not easy

[somber crest]

Why are you aiming for moving targets at 1000m

that's so edge-case

[wispy otter]

bro, y do u write bout me? i use awp 6 rnds 10-400 metres

[somber crest]

go get the rangefinder and scope down to 400m, thats the range anything other than a DMR is ineffective

[torpid lodge]

this is what you said about m200, which only happens with a range over 1000 meters

sure the maps may have give some favor towards playing snipers, but this does not warrent another sniper nerf as the class is already underpowered

[somber crest]

This is just circular arguing about edge cases, there's a fantastic video about balancing Sniping in videogames that covers pretty much all of this and hilights a lot of the issues BBR currently has

let me see if I can find it

[wispy otter]

ur god damn right, but savezone sniper still should be removed

[somber crest]

Then why so many people be playing it then?

[floral star]

Same guy that made the shotgun one too right?

[torpid lodge]

same could be said about other maps like namak, where snipers are near useless if you are not quickscoping

[floral star]

lol

[wispy otter]

because they have a cup of beer in their left hand maybe?

[somber crest]

The only maps I can think where snipers are useless are Namek

Maaaaybe err...

Construction

[torpid lodge]

many people playing a class doesnt mean its good, it just means people like playing that style of gameplay, other reason may also reflect on why people play a certain class. if you think people play snipers because they are the "best" or op that wouldnt be the case

[somber crest]

and non-rooftop Frugis

[floral star]

The new district has a thick fog, and I'm not domed as often on that one.

[wispy otter]

frugis ia ultrabad for snipers, one c4 = one roof

[somber crest]

Yea that's not the worst

[somber crest]

There's a whole lot of cover on Frugis, but this works both ways, I'd definitely say it's not as bad as something like Sunset

[torpid lodge]

some people play snipers because you dont have to learn alot of the foreign mechanics this game provides, people may choose the sniper class because it is a good starting place for people who just bought the game where they may be intimitated by the milsim esque mechanics

[somber crest]

People play classes that are easy and effective as a general rule, look at pre-nerf medic for example

[torpid lodge]

then this game should be full of assault players by now if thats the case?

[somber crest]

But assault isn't OP

[torpid lodge]

that is a very vcague and general rule that doesnt look at many nuances in the system

[somber crest]

it's middling at best

I mean, there's definitely some style preference there, EU servers generally have more snipers than US because eastern europe playstyle preference

[wispy otter]

ur right, but
in 90% situations they just hit a body and keep liyng, so they impact = 0
its easy to hit standing target, but sooo uneffective

[somber crest]

Going back to the start of the thread, it's just not very fun to play against, in a way that feels punishing and unfair rather than challenging and dramatic

Wanna flank? Too bad a sniper saw you because cover derenders

[torpid lodge]

it was never your role to be counter sniping at 800 meters as a medic

[wispy otter]

just panish them back
on sandy u can easely take quad, go on edge of the map and farm over 10 kills

[somber crest]

Want to push, get bodyshot which causes an instant bleed, go lie down behind a box for 4 seconds before continuing

[torpid lodge]

you cant expect to be able to do everything

[somber crest]

It is the ease in which it is done that's the issue

[torpid lodge]

the same way can be said about any other guns, you can tap fire with most guns and be accurate up to quite some range

[somber crest]

ah stop it now

you're clutching straws

[torpid lodge]

and have you even played snipers to say it is easy?

[somber crest]

Yea

I played a whole bunch

Not my playstyle personally

[torpid lodge]

you have to realise that the majority of recon players are not as good as you

if you dont like it, dont do it, but you shouldnt want it ruined because people can also have fun playing said playstyle

[somber crest]

Never said ruined, I said balanced

I'm not saying remove

I'm saying add a little more challenge

I would much prefer tracers were removed, I think they're stupid

If you've got a good sneaky position as a sniper, good on you, well done

Just maybe make it a little harder to hit people, of which currently it's very easy

[copper kettle]

Just remove hold breath mechanic

[somber crest]

that's one thing, yea, or make it so you can only hold for a second

not 10(?)

[torpid lodge]

if most of the recon players think recon is already underpowered and needs some buff, what caused you to think that snipers are "easy to hit shots"? you being hit with sniper rounds doesnt mean its easy to hit shots with it, many people can be sniping at the same area

[somber crest]

if it was an underpowered class, it wouldn't be popular. Sorry but that's the hard truth.

Post-nerf medic is an underpowered class, no one plays it

[torpid lodge]

medics are around all the time im not sure what server you are playing in

[copper kettle]

People literally choose classes cause of what they prefer as a playstyle, not on if its underpowered or not

[somber crest]

"no one" in the figurative sense

[torpid lodge]

again, you are ignoring all the nuances and going straight to hte assumption that people play something because its good

[somber crest]

And you're assuming recon is underpowered, which is pure conjecture.

[torpid lodge]

why would people be using anything other than the mp7? why would some still play medic/support/engineer despite using the same assault rifle?

[somber crest]

Please understand than when I say everyone/noone, I'm not talking in hte literal sense

[torpid lodge]

i am not saying it in the literal sense either, but my point still stands, assault players still do not make up the majority of the players

despite being "the best" class

[somber crest]

If recon is underpowered, what would you change to buff it?

Where does the class fall short?

[torpid lodge]

removing tracers in my opinion would fix some of the issues with close range sniping being difficult

[somber crest]

What distance do you mean by close range?

[torpid lodge]

200~ or below

[somber crest]

Should they be effective at that range?

[copper kettle]

Id say traces should pop up at around the 100-200 meter mark

[torpid lodge]

you are complaining them being too far off and uncounterable i am just giving my opinion here

[copper kettle]

What sniper shouldnt be
Like drawback of a sniping at that range seem very obvious to me

[somber crest]

I think tracers are a hack fix for a bigger issue and should be removed

[night dragon]

recons don't really have any proper tools to recon I guess? they at least seem to me like med-long range assassins xd

[somber crest]

Thats definitely a thing

[copper kettle]

Maybe recon could mark mines or rally points too

Something in the lines of that

[night dragon]

another issue is only way to convey info is via VC, not everyone is going to do that
or whoever wants the info has to actively pull their map out

[copper kettle]

Not per say

I mean respawn screen exists

You have to pay attention to that at the very least

[night dragon]

it's not a very visible thing for me at least

I was thinking of a goofy idea like a buildable trip wire that would make sound when some enemy walks over it + puts down a static red ping

[somber crest]

this game has communication issues big time

but getting off track of the thread slightly

[lucid path]

Yall yap too much fr fr, yall also just want snipers to be worse because you dont want to adapt to them.

Also

Sniper wouldnt be played as much if normal infantry gameplay was actually fun. Goes to show that afk is more fun than playing the game fr fr 🗣️

[somber crest]

fr no cap

[rich zealot]

sneaking up on snipers are also fun

assuming they dont just suddenly have spidey senses

[lime wasp]

then what's the issue? what do you propose on how to solve it?

[rich zealot]

you can't solve sniper that easily. its always been a pain in the ass for developers in any game

[lime wasp]

is the issue of snipers beaming people 1000m away? then too bad, they are doing what they are good at. if you are complaining because you got hit by one though you schmooving, its probably a lucky shot/hacker

[lime wasp]

exactly, have y'all even seen arch's video of snipers?

battlebit is literally encouraging you to play far by making the damage dropoff upwards

[somber crest]

The issue was across-map pinpoint accuracy, the fix is to make scope glint work properly and reduce accuracy from 100% to ~99% or something, now clue exactly how the game calculated accuracy percentages

[rich zealot]

speaking of lucky shot. my luckiest shot by far was a spawn in kill. spawn on a squad mate > misclick fire button by accident > gets a noscope kill

[lime wasp]

then I propose a stamina system

[rich zealot]

its only pin point if its hit scan

[lime wasp]

similar to deadline

I hecking love deadline

[somber crest]

Nnno, pinpoint is it goes exactly where you're aiming, hitscan is hitscan

As in dispersion

[lime wasp]

what you mean glint work properly?

and the accuracy symbol is when you hipfire, not scoping in

ads for all weapons first shot accuracy is 100%

[somber crest]

source?

[lime wasp]

I can't believe you

[somber crest]

and I meant weapon stats

[lime wasp]

you don't know this?

[rich zealot]

tbf I sometimes do wonder about getting sniped from a very far distance but not seeing any scope glint. either that guy spotted me using a binocular and decided to snipe me with an iron sight sniper or its a bug

[somber crest]

I can categorically tell you this isn't true

unless you can provide a source that tells me I'm categorically wrong, which I'll take

[rich zealot]

I mean you can always go to the shooting range and test it out?

[somber crest]

but I make single shots with Mk20's while laying down prone with medium scopes and there is very slight inaccuracy at range

[rich zealot]

maybe there's something wrong with the game calculations then

[lime wasp]

#battlebit-eng message

[somber crest]

A rando said it?

[rich zealot]

its not just any rando tho

[somber crest]

I'mma triple-check this when I go on lunch

[rich zealot]

that dude is like 7 tier

[lime wasp]

he is p10

bro has been down here longer than me

and I been here since early 2023

(ignore aug 23, I got banned)

[somber crest]

Misconceptions be misconceptions, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong tho

I'll give it a test on the range

[copper kettle]

Yeah i have tested this myself

Every gun has 100% accuracy

No dispersion, bloom, whatever people call it

[subtle nymph]

Theoretically the vector has slight full auto dispersion, and the MP7 and iirc one other gun should have a tiny amount as well

But yeah pretty much

[somber crest]

Nope you're absolutely right, every gun is 100% accurate on teh first shot

thats absolutely scuffed and also confirms sniping is even easier than thought

feels like incredibly lazy coding

[subtle nymph]

There’s nothing lazy about that. They just didn’t want RNG in aim.

The functionality for that inaccuracy is implemented, just unused. There are four accuracy stats and only one of them is actually widely used and measurable :p

[somber crest]

In an arena shooter I'd 100% agree with you, but in a Battlefield style game?

[subtle nymph]

I agree with the lack of bullet deviation myself

Just don’t like it

[somber crest]

Do you agree though that it provides a much greater benefit to high-alpha weapons?

You basically have an entire class of weapons made immune from a core mechanic

[copper kettle]

I think thats just horizontal recoil, not dispersion

Seems rather silly that a few weapons have it for some reason

[lucid path]

All weapons first shot is 100% accurate source: me 💀

[somber crest]

You're right, I was wrong

[delicate forge]

If you play so close you didn’t even know there’s bullet drop I am incredibly unsurprised you get killed a lot by snipers lol. This time it’s literally just a skill issue.

[copper kettle]

Does bro expect that bullets will drop after 50 meters

[twin sky]

Dude. The bullet drop is almost unnoticeable within 200 m

[delicate forge]

That is how modern rifles tend to function.

[twin sky]

Also, what do you want me to do with a close range weapon? Are you ok?

[copper kettle]

Shoot?

[twin sky]

My point was that I don’t want to be forced to play sniper

[copper kettle]

Dmr

[twin sky]

Bro

[copper kettle]

Its not a sniper it is a designated marksman rifle

[delicate forge]

If you choose a close range weapon you are choosing to be effective at CLOSE RANGE and not long range. If you want to fight long range, pick up a gun that’s good at long range.

[twin sky]

Those are just annoying. I play to have fun. You probably never heard of that.

[copper kettle]

I too play for fun

[delicate forge]

The snipers are also playing to have fun lol

[twin sky]

Again, my point is that I don’t want to play like that

I think you guys have dementia

[copper kettle]

You even have guns that are good at 200

Like aug

That shreds mid range

[twin sky]

My point is that I want to play something fun for me and not be forced to use those said guns

[copper kettle]

So you want to use a smg to kill someone at 200m?

[twin sky]

No

[delicate forge]

No he just wants sniper rifles to not be effective at long distances, which makes a lot of sense.

[twin sky]

I want either the maps or the snipers to not force me to play sniper

I just want cover

Then I am fine

Also, I didn’t want them to not work at long ranges, I just want it to be more skilled, not a point and click adventure.

[delicate forge]

You are not being forced to play sniper. You are occasionally killed by snipers, because sometimes other players will kill you in fps games.

[torpid lodge]

thats crazy

[twin sky]

“Occasionally”

Bro, that’s almost all of what kills me

[copper kettle]

Sure its annoying af at times

But like

[torpid lodge]

sniper complainers when they realise that snipers cant kill you without line of sight:

[copper kettle]

You cant have everything

Sure maps could use more cover

[delicate forge]

Or just move lol it’s not nearly so easy to hit moving heads.

[copper kettle]

But if you arent utilising it then its a skissue

[twin sky]

Again, I want to be able to stay out of line of sight, but some maps you can’t if you want to actually help your team

[torpid lodge]

"what do you mean i cant stand in the open and not get shot in the skull?"

[twin sky]

It’s not a skill issue if I am playing for fun and just want to use something fun

King king

Bro

Read plz

[delicate forge]

Sounds like you are doing that but have an issue with other people who do that if they happen to be using a sniper rifle lol

[torpid lodge]

playing for fun mfs when others are having fun

[twin sky]

King king might be illiterate

[torpid lodge]

you want to enjoy the game at the expanse of other sniper players lol

[twin sky]

Again, no

[delicate forge]

“Could it be these people disagree with me? No, they must be unable to properly understand my immaculate logic.”

[torpid lodge]

calling someone illiterate doesnt help your argument

[copper kettle]

Me when no power fantasy

[twin sky]

That’s like saying that if a gun is overpowered, you should leave it overpowered bc ppl enjoy that.

But then you got the other ppl who are then forced to use that to counter.

[torpid lodge]

well snipers arent overpowered so idk what you are suggesting

[delicate forge]

Snipers are overpowered because they can kill me, they need to be balanced so that they can’t kill me anymore if I don’t want them to.

[twin sky]

Bro, go talk to a wall, because I am not even going to read your messages king king

[torpid lodge]

[twin sky]

You haven’t said a single helpful or useful thing

You just said “nut uh”

[delicate forge]

Why does he look like Jesus in the last supper painting lmfao

[twin sky]

Repeatedly

And there goes the last bit of sanity

Adios

[delicate forge]

Anyway nerf smgs

[copper kettle]

Return lazur vecotr so i can sniper thw snipers

[lime wasp]

add shotguns 🤓☝️

[twin sky]

One more thing, if you have never played brisha map then that is your only excuse for thinking snipers are balanced.

[copper kettle]

What the fuck is brisha

Basra you mean?

[delicate forge]

They should balance the weapons by giving sniper rifles a much higher rate of fire (800-1200rpm) but much less damage and more fall off and a lower headshot multiplier. Then to compensate SMGs should have much higher damage and drop off and headshot multiplier, and have their fire rate reduced to like 20-40rpm.

[lime wasp]

brisha

guys new map just dropped

[delicate forge]

Brita best map

[lime wasp]

located west of the British straits

[plucky hemlock]

basra just makes snipers more useful

snipers are in a terrible state...

[copper kettle]

Not to be mistaken with the large atlantic trash patch

[lime wasp]

no wonder there's a container ship featured

[delicate forge]

It’s called the “United Kingdom” okay

[torpid lodge]

this is the only way

[subtle nymph]

High alpha as in, initial dps? Single shot damage?

[subtle nymph]

Most guns have it at 100%
like 2 guns have it at 95%
vector has it at 90%
(iirc)

[lime wasp]

agree with that only if it one shot even with an armor

[somber crest]

single shot damage

[subtle nymph]

I have never played a game where snipers had dispersion

It would make them much less consistent yes, but I certainly view this as the norm rather than a specific property of this game's snipers

[subtle nymph]

nvm, checked again. Most guns are 1.0, several SMGs/PDWs are 0.99, famas and a couple of carbines and SMGs have it as 0.95, Kriss Vector has it at 0.85

[copper kettle]

Where did you check that

Just curious

[somber crest]

I mean, most do in some way

[subtle nymph]

ox1gen has a data mining script which I used to get all the gun's stats

[somber crest]

Or, they have a slowly raising accuracy as you stay still/don't fire

[copper kettle]

Huh, didnt know that

[subtle nymph]

so I have all this stuff

yet to put it to any actual use though

there are 56 stats for each gun here

[copper kettle]

So all this time there was dispersion just for like

4 guns

Why

[lucid path]

I love how i just look at the headers and neurons just fire off.

[subtle nymph]

the "lowest ADS fire accuracy" has values below 1 for most guns

but how that works is unclear

[copper kettle]

Does it even work

[subtle nymph]

vector again is the worst, and in game it's still hard to see

[copper kettle]

How do you even test this

[subtle nymph]

oki knows ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[subtle nymph]

Not really possible without a decompile of the game

trying to measure spread on a full auto gun only works when it's big enough to clearly see... and even for the vector it's questionable if it's a case of your brain tricking you into thinking these bullets are moving

For that gun in particular it looks like there's a bit of spread in ads

but it's not obvious and I don't think anyone's proven it's actually a thing

[copper kettle]

Only way you could test it is by pretty much making it recoilless and shooting at a dummy over a good distance

But nobody can really do that

[subtle nymph]

yep

but if we had access to making recoiless weapons we'd probably already have the code which dictates deviation anyway

[twin sky]

I agree, also autocorrect for some reason corrected me to “brisha” no idea why, and it says that it isn’t even a word

[twin sky]

I think so, but 1st shot accuracy is still insane with the vector and I don’t think there is even bullet drop. I have no idea why. There is still no point in taking far shots with it though because the damage is so small from that range with a single bullet.

[subtle nymph]

there is bullet drop.

that is there for all guns

[twin sky]

Ok, lmao

I thought there wasn’t bc I was testing a while ago and could hit ppl really far away with no adjustments for height

Still barely any damage

[subtle nymph]

it's a low velocity gun, it makes a significant impact

will drop by about 55cm at 100m

[twin sky]

That makes me question how I was hitting those shots unless I got lucky bullet spread

I guess it is possible I was hitting their toes

[subtle nymph]

the spread is tiny and doesn't happen outside of full auto

[twin sky]

Ok

Idk then

Mby I was accidentally aiming higher

Imma change the title to guns and map balancing mby

My biggest concern is maps bc that is the real reason snipers are so good

U less you are just cracked, then they are good on any map.

Map and Gun Balance

[opaque dirge]

Snipers are too easy to use and that’s because the maps allow it

[twin sky]

That’s what I mean.

I was wrong saying that they are broken

It’s just the maps that make it like that.

That’s why I changed the name

[sinful dagger]

"Open maps bad" is pretty much a universally accepted take here. The reason why Snipers (and by Proxy DMRs) are seen as "powerful" in these maps is because the map just straight up heavily favors them, for one reason or another lack of cover, water everywhere, etc.

[copper kettle]

Water everywhere wont be as bad if it wasnt borked af

Especially borked on basra

[sinful dagger]

Regardless, vilask just needs to add more cover for said maps

[copper kettle]

Correct

[sinful dagger]

if the solution is "just do X thing that only works in certain modes" or some other janky solution, i'd argue its not a good one.

Support kinda does suffer from this, funnily enough. Yeah you can insta-build cover so snipers aren't a problem. (Which can help you and your team against sniping players on these open maps) But by that same token if you aren't doing that, you might as well be dead. Also you have account for the buildable limits.

[copper kettle]

I just realised

Maybe one of the reasons why there are so many open areas is because maps are built with the intent of using buildables

Given everyone can actually do it

Given that many dont actually know how to do it, it would explain a lot

[sinful dagger]

Perhaps. but at that point just remove the limit then

It genuinely isn't that hard to blow through 20 of both sandbags tbh

[copper kettle]

Yep

[lucid path]

Weapon balance 🗣️

[night dragon]

in terms of balance I wonder what makes people rage more, ttk or effective range

snipers technically have a 0 ttk lmao and range

[plucky hemlock]

ttk goes out the window when you aim at limbs instead of torso/head armor

[night dragon]

yeah which makes the weapon very skill dependant I guess?

[late solar]

[subtle nymph]

No it doesn’t.

[plucky hemlock]

it’s where all the complaints about ttk came from

the next time you fight an exo support try only bodyshotting them

compare that to aiming at their limbs

[subtle nymph]

That doesn’t make ttk less relevant? I don’t know what you mean

[plucky hemlock]

i had meant to say it’s incredibly scuffed because of the armor system

[subtle nymph]

Mm, don’t agree with you there. The armour system is about as consistent as an armour system can get for ttk without full body coverage at least

As long as you can mathematically define when you expect to hit any given body part it’s no issue

[plucky hemlock]

i target switch and don’t usually have time to figure out where i’m going to hit and end up hitting body shots on exos or any other armor

funny how there’s no limb damage reduction multiplier so you can either bypass armor completely or get cucked because the support npcs turned around at the wrong time and saw you flanking

[subtle nymph]

At least for the most part it only takes one of your shots hitting the torso to make TTK against it consistent

Not for exo unless you have a DMR though

[late solar]

[somber crest]

Don't dare argue with SS and his precious TTK stat, you won't win

[sinful dagger]

“Consistent”

Only thing “consistent” about this current meta is just leg shots to avoid this whole mess, then proceeding to tbag the damn non playable support main hiding in a bush doing nothing to help his team defend an objective

Because if you shoot the armor you will lose the gun fight, simple as that. Decent players know this and just don’t go for armor shots as a result

[somber crest]

The chad armor-wearing Support, the virgin armor-rejecting SMG medic

Make limb shots do 50% damage, issue solved

[late solar]

😭

[sinful dagger]

Just remove legs, we all travel using mobility scooters

[copper kettle]

Wheelchairs

[plucky hemlock]

[plucky hemlock]

still better than hitting armor if everything else stays the same

[twin sky]

Tbh, I think % based armor would be better. You would do a % less damage and after enough damage it would break. The % would be low enough that it is still worth aiming for the head by having the damage multi to headshots be more that’s the % decrease. This would let you actually aim and feel good when you hit nasty headshots instead of seeing a blue crosshair for a second and knowing you did 0 damage.

Then again, mby I’m being stupid and that’s how it already is

[plucky hemlock]

this is not how it is

(read the entire conversation about limb meta...)

armor acts as disposable locational hp

one-time and can't heal and only applies to certain regions of body

[twin sky]

That’s kind of annoying

[plucky hemlock]

hence armor is going to be counted as an addition to player HP pool instead

[twin sky]

If we are talking realism, that’s not how it is either.

[plucky hemlock]

i would think getting shot 50 times in the arm doesnt cause you to die

people asking for realism in this game

wheres my limb immortality

[twin sky]

You get shot in the head with a helmet, you still get a concussion at least

[twin sky]

Lmao

True

[plucky hemlock]

most "realism" suggestions would cause a lot more people to be more frustrated with gameplay mechanics than they already are

look at bandaging

or mag packing

[twin sky]

I guess I just feel annoyed when it feels like I do nothing even if I hit the coolest headshot ever bc it doesn’t actually damage them

[plucky hemlock]

or snipers not having bullet trails

[twin sky]

There are?

[plucky hemlock]

that was a great time because snipers werent overpowered then

[plucky hemlock]

there are now

[twin sky]

Ok

[plucky hemlock]

sniper rifles used to not have terribly obvious bullet trails

[twin sky]

It’s kinda funny bc if you hit someone it literally is beaming them

[torpid lodge]

yeah try running around and scaling building with a lmg wouldnt be too realistic

[plucky hemlock]

yes and it gives you away to the 20 people on their team doing the exact same thing

[twin sky]

True

[plucky hemlock]

sniper is nerfed to shit in its current state

[twin sky]

I think that snipers are balanced, or even bad, if there weren’t maps that are impossible to play if the enemy team has snipers

[plucky hemlock]

but people will still complain because it is elevated to an annoying role which has low impact on matches but high impact on casual players mental

[twin sky]

I think that the maps make snipers good

[plucky hemlock]

correct

[twin sky]

Which makes ppl mad bc they feel like there is nothing they could do

[plucky hemlock]

they make most vehicles aside from littlebird, tank, and remote MG jeep terrible

[twin sky]

Yah

[plucky hemlock]

see the obvious positioning issue

only times i die to snipers are when im in an obviously open position

the way movement is in battlebit makes it damn near impossible to get crossmapped by a sniper if you're moving

[twin sky]

That’s true

That’s why i sometimes run vector to just never stop moving

[plucky hemlock]

"snipers are OP" is oki's argument as well but he's basing the meta on something he wants to MAKE rather than something the plaeyrs develop on their own

[twin sky]

I think snipers are balanced, just annoying to fight

[torpid lodge]

🥺

[plucky hemlock]

until you realize DMRs do sniper but better..

[twin sky]

Lmao

True

No bolt action time

[plucky hemlock]

i should specify m110*

[twin sky]

True

Can you drone on other classes?

[plucky hemlock]

no

[twin sky]

/:

[plucky hemlock]

but the mine drone has little impact

you could get more kills by running and c4, which is what i do

[torpid lodge]

try doing a 360 no scope with a dmr

[twin sky]

I like droning bc funny

I just like the reactions

[plucky hemlock]

try actually killing me when you have my discord stream open

[twin sky]

If I’m playing serious I go c4 and smokes or frag

[torpid lodge]

mf i had to constantly tab out to see where you are

[twin sky]

Lmao

[plucky hemlock]

you still knew where i was while i was playing the game

and dropped like literally 5x your kills

[twin sky]

This is where you duel monitor if you can

[plucky hemlock]

with stuttery 80 fps

my shit was lagging so hard

[torpid lodge]

i only saw you like twice in that entire match

[twin sky]

Does someone want to do with me?

[plucky hemlock]

and u died twice

[torpid lodge]

once*

[twin sky]

I’m still kinda learning

DUO

WTF AUTOCORRECT

[plucky hemlock]

play with @opaque dirge the only surviving conquest player

[twin sky]

I think blank is mad with me bc I pissed him off with my lack of game knowledge

When I was talking to him earlier

[plucky hemlock]

people who dont know game mechanics and make suggestions are what piss good players off

[twin sky]

Does k/d count knock downs or only deaths?

Lmao

It was my fault

[plucky hemlock]

deaths only

[twin sky]

Ok

That makes sense

Does it only count that for you getting kills or getting killed?

[plucky hemlock]

getting killed

[twin sky]

Ok

I’ve been trying to run scar h for a while, is it worth the effort?

[plucky hemlock]

no

ak15

[twin sky]

Ok

I’ll do that

Thx

[subtle nymph]

The consistency I referred to is, as in, the variation in ttk is less than it might otherwise be since armour doesn’t need every shot to hit it to have its full effect.

For example if armour was % reduction based, it would be a lot less consistent

[tough tiger]

How? If it was % reduction based it would negate the same amount of damage as anyone else wearing the same armor at full hp

vs what we have now which might not

[subtle nymph]

Because there would be higher variation

Assuming the armour was just as viable as it is now, the difference between hitting all body shots and hitting all limb shots with % reduction armour would be massive, several times greater variation than we currently have

Because with current armour, once the armour is gone (usually after one shot), where the next shots land doesn’t make a difference

Apart from headshots ofc, but same goes for helmets

[plucky hemlock]

not for exo armor...

when you use smgs or snipers the difference is huge

[tough tiger]

You have it backwards. Currently there are I think two pieces of armor that can be broken, so if you land the next shot on the one you didnt break it does matter. If it were a single hitbox it wouldnt matter where the next bullet lands.

[subtle nymph]

The difference is most jarring for exo armour, you actually have to crank the reduction up hugely for it to be as good as flat reduction armour

[subtle nymph]

Yes, but most of the time this does not happen, I simplified it to show the logic
I should clarify I am specifically not talking about single hitbox armour, which would be more consistent

I initially claimed this implementation is relatively consistent given lack of full body coverage

[tough tiger]

Im gonna be honest I have no idea what youre trying to say. I dont see how flat reduction armor could be less consistent then armor with a bunch of hitboxes which may or may not be hit in different orders depending on the scenario.

[subtle nymph]

All I can say is this, again

[opaque dirge]

Remove armor problem solved

[plucky hemlock]

nerf stupid vector medics 1 shotting me in full exo (i was prone and looking toward my team safezone) 🗣️

[tough tiger]

Partial body coverage makes it less consistent though

[late solar]

[late solar]

Consistently inconsistent

[late solar]

Oi that's my bit

[subtle nymph]

Yes, I agree, I’ve already said that

[tough tiger]

So in this message are you talking about armor with a % reduction AND partial coverage versus armor as we have it now?

[subtle nymph]

Yes

[tough tiger]

Ok I understand

I dont think anyone wants partial coverage and % reduction. Most people seem to just want % reduction.

[plucky hemlock]

rather have armor add to total hp

all snipers one shot hs to non exo blah blah blah varying velocity rpm and mag size

[twin sky]

The reason i think that % based is better is that if you hit headshots it would still do more damage to the head than if you just aim at their legs. This would make some of the closer range engagements more than just spraying at their feet. I also think that the armor would still break after a shot or so. That would make you still have the same damage reduction, but you can still feel like you are playing an fps where headshots matter.

[subtle nymph]

Currently that is only the case if you hit one headshot and no more than that, and don’t hit the face in that shot

If armour broke after a single shot with % based reduction though? It’d need to be like 50-95% damage reduction based on type to be on par with current armour.

It would also mess with gun balance as lower damage weapons would be heavily favoured

[late solar]

remove armor already fr ong

[jaunty prairie]

At the pace they are going and with the ideas of "balance" if they can be called that way, it would be the best

[ruby kelp]

login in the game after weeks, see a billion dmr and supports

leave the game