RPG Balancing

[vocal bloom]

As it currently stands, Tanks and most other armored vehicles have a very limited region to which they can operate due to the fact that literally everyone and their mother has an RPG. There needs to be some kind of team limit or special role of some kind to make them more rare and more valuable. Perhaps each squad could have one man with an RPG? Maybe it could be a team limit or limited role? As compensation for making them rarer perhaps they could also become more powerful as tanks IRL aren't RPG sponges. There are lots of options but I feel something needs to change because RPGS are waaaayyyyy too common as it is.

https://tenor.com/view/grenade-explosion-rpg-boom-gif-5135363

[toxic ibex]

heat with 6 rockets(heavy bp) kinda needs a ammo nerf, 4 should be enough. 6 feels like a pain in the as sometimes. frag rpg could have 6 but not heat

[vocal bloom]

100%, something along those lines would be great. Armored vehicles are just so annoying to drive with everyone having RPGS

RPG Balancing

[burnt ridge]

Tanks need a rework all together all anyone does is complain about how weak they are

My opinion is chunk tf outa their speed and make them far sturdier make c4 less of a brainless 1 shot to everything

If you do that then tanks become far more scary as they don’t pop the moment they entire combat but they still maintain that kill ability

And then RPGs don’t need to be nerfed into the abyss simple cuz vehicles aren’t well balanced

[delicate root]

Well, Tandem still does. It deals 2.16x dmg of heat. That's definitely too much.

And nerfing RPG's dmg is one way to buff tanks survivability. Not only way tho

[delicate sorrel]

nerfing RPG raw damage in needed. make it do damage with multipliers instead.

[delicate root]

What do you mean by that?

[burnt ridge]

Not at all

If you buff tanks tandem wouldn’t feel super heavy plus tandem drop like crazy

People shouldn’t be playing tanks directly in front line as they are now

[delicate root]

Then should they be camping? Like they do now?

But when vehicles don't play in front line, people cry 'uh oh tanks only camp'
'Uh oh, vehicles camp in spawn'
*said vehicle is spawn locked by 3 engis with tandem and scared to move forward. Every game occurence

So if tanks shouldn't camp, and shouldn't push, what should they do @burnt ridge , hmmm? Any grounbreaking ideas?

[burnt ridge]

Camp as they currently are

This why instead of changing RPGs change the tank

Tanks obviously arnt beefy enough

Maybe i dunno read my comments before trying to make these condescending ass statements without any knowledge of what I’m recommending

[delicate root]

Lol, LMAO

No definitely not

It's boring, bad practice to incentives that, and it creates obnoxiousness on inf side

Majority of players expect/wants the vehicle gameplay to be like in BF series. Those who do not care would benefit from that over camping

[burnt ridge]

Continues to not read what I said

[delicate root]

I read what you said, don't clown me

I just find saying that they should camp a idiotic statement, divorced from the realito of the game.

I do agree that they aren't beefy enough, but saying they should camp is straight up terrible take

[burnt ridge]

I mean atm what else are they supposed to do. C4 are a 1 shot basically

RPGs really arnt used that much

Not on tank atleast

[delicate root]

It is. Tandem especially. People don't mind making pot shots with HEAT's, not to mantion just trying to get you

[delicate root]

c4 is due nerf/rework since releas

[burnt ridge]

I’ve never seen anyone use tandem ever

[delicate root]

Well, I see it very often

[burnt ridge]

Like 1 person sense release and he didn’t hit anything due to the significantly lower speed and faster drop

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Like I said RPGS arnt the problem it’s how soft tanks are

[delicate root]

yes they are. Idk where do you play, but tandem definetly will fuck you up, with it's 48% or 87% of hp per shot

especially when you stop camping and start playing more actively

[delicate sorrel]

they, the tandem more so, do raw damage that is then multiplied., which in the tandems case means that without weakspots it one shots basically everything except the apc, helo, and tank. the apc is like at 20% and the helo is less than that, with the tanke taking 3? to kill from a non-weakspot. this is required because the tank has a fuckton of health, with the helo in second and APC in 3rd. The health pool has been mega buffed because the RPGs did so much damage so quickly.

By taking away the raw damage and adding multipliers bases on vehicle class and weakspot hits, means its far easier to balance in the long run, especailly if more vehicles are eventually going to be coming.

[delicate root]

So we are talking about x% to A vehicle but y% to B vehicle from the same weapon?

Something like that?

[delicate sorrel]

basically that yes, right now the starting point is very, very high, so when multiplied it obviously does even more damage. It would be far better to have a much lower raw damage output, player flesh damage essentially, and a much bigger multiplier to specific vehicles or vehicle classes. its far easier to fix a multiplier than it is with raw damage to get the same result.

[delicate root]

I like that idea. Though Oki will never see it

And he will never care'

[burnt ridge]

I agree with this

Changing it so that hitting specific locations on the tank to do more would be far better than chunking them as a whole

[delicate root]

That's how it is rn

But it's straigh up 200% more, so from 48 to 87% dmg

Which is a joke

Even BF have max dmg for RPG's capped at 55%
https:// planetside.fandom.com/wiki/NS_Decimator

[delicate sorrel]

like I said a 2x multiplier ain't bad

but with the starting point so high any muliplication just makes the problem worse

I rather have crazy as hell multipliers than can be changed quickly and easily than raw damage being altered even a bit because that makes massive changes.

[lament kernel]

I definitely like the idea of making tanks slower and beefier like their IRL counter parts. Tank players most often: sit in/around spawn and snipe from 500m+ or play like a glass cannon - able to annihilate anything it sees, but being incredibly vulnerable itself. This vulnerability in one is because the lack of infantry that are able to cover a tank and vice versa. How the hell are you gonna use a tank for mobile cover if its speeding at 30mph and can be taken out by a single medic with ~4 c4 (this action can be done within 3 seconds). By having a 'tankier' tank it indirectly nerfs the HEAT, and if you want to do significant damage, like devildog implied, a damage multiplier for hitting specific parts of the tank rewards skillful rpg usage

Also sorry, ik this is a rpg balance post, not a tank balance post, got a bit off topic

[delicate root]

"slower and beefier" - I have a feeling that thanks in this game are too slow relaitevly to everything else. Modern tanks are fast. Far from slow.

Same with turret rotation. That's is 100% too slow

[stable compass]

Tandem does 22% to tanks, 44% if you shot a weak spot, tandem has 3 rockets, and most of engies use the Heat, because is the most versatile RPG

[delicate root]

It's 24, 48, and 87%

2600 dmg, out of 6000 HP, 50% reduction up front. 200% increase in the rear

The rear shot math doesn't checks out, but that's what you can get from avalible data

[stable compass]

In worst case scenario you didn't kill the tank even with the 3 tandem rockets, tandem is balanced for Vehicle destruction, and is shit against infantry

[delicate root]

Hahah no

[stable compass]

Best case scenario you kill the tank, but you shot all of the tandem rockets

[delicate root]

87% in one shot is far from balanced. Even if that's in weak spot

[stable compass]

This is on LAVs

Not tanks

[delicate root]

You need one heat and one tandem to kill. And there is 127 enemies

[delicate root]

And tanks rear

[stable compass]

Tanks needs an armor system

[delicate root]

What does that even means

Anyways your math is wrong

[stable compass]

Like the plates in the infantry gameplay

The armor absorbs x damage depending of the type of explosive

Tandem only have 1 purpose, destroy vehicles, specifically heavy ones

[delicate root]

Yes. And it does it too well. It's overtuned. Simply.

Compare its damage to hardest hitting rocket launchers in other titles if the reality of game is not convincing enough for you.

[stable compass]

In the most cases tanks die by C4 players, the sound of a rocket alerts every tank user, even if you hit most of the time you only do 48 with the rocket, alerting the pilot and the other tripulants, most tanks are cover by infantry, most of the time by snipers or DMRr engies

The Rockets are really loud

If you hit or miss you alert the tank of your presence

If you see any conquest game, there is only 4 to 10 people focusing the tanks and LAVs

And most of the time they aren't coordinated in order to destroy tanks

[delicate sorrel]

no thats what the tandem does to the rear of a tank, it just kills an APC from the rear in one hit

"alerting the enemy" is not a balance tool for how versitile the HEAT is, and how powerful the Tandem is.

[stable compass]

You mean a back shot right?

IDK where the rear is, and we need many experimentation in order to view the average situation of the tanks

[delicate sorrel]

wtf you mean you don't know where the back of the tank is?

[stable compass]

Backshot, right, how big is that area ?

[delicate sorrel]

anyway side is also a weakspot.

two shots.

at most, since I don't know how much the multiplier is to the side

and the rear is the rear dipshit.

[stable compass]

The sides recieve 44 damage

The hitboxes sometimes are very inconsistent

[delicate sorrel]

not really no

whats happening is splash damage hitting one of the weakspots first

hitbox is very consistent

[stable compass]

Many times I shot in the front and get the 44

Tanks needs buffs in survivability, like the reactive armor in real tanks

And many people disagree because the games when the tanks are spwancamped are pretty rare, most of the time is the people trying to get the point from the same direction over and over again

[delicate sorrel]

the front and the turret all count as the same I believe

[stable compass]

Actually destroy a tank is very easy if you catch them of guard

[delicate sorrel]

either way hitting the rear with a weakspot hit is easy cause splashdamge works, no point shooting at the side unless its moving

[stable compass]

Specifically with C4, makes no sound

[delicate sorrel]

yeah for some reason breaching charges are fucking amazing at killing vehicles

[stable compass]

Yeah, it's sneaky, it's very spammable, and everyone can use it

[delicate sorrel]

which is another problem that certain people really love.

[stable compass]

C4 it's the solution of all problems; chokepoint?, C4; Tanks/LAVs?, C4; Infantry?, C4, Recons camping in the "IDK" but I call them air towers in the Valley map, C4

C4 is your solution to all of your problems

[delicate sorrel]

....you mean the turbines?

[stable compass]

Thanks

Yeap

[delicate sorrel]

Wind Turbine to be exact btw

[stable compass]

It is funny destroy the base a watch all snipers fall

[delicate sorrel]

I don't go up there anymore for that exact reason

[stable compass]

Hahaha me 2

The most big killstreak in this situation I ever made is 5 snipers

[delicate sorrel]

I killed 12 once, they were all on top of the close tower way back when

[stable compass]

Good times when the people only cares in the objectives, now is like COD, who have most kills

[delicate root]

Whole ass

[delicate root]

It's technically 3 shot. But you are left with 4% of HP. So any dmg earlier makes it a fucking 2 shot.
Oh, and add the fact that top is also neutral, so also 48% but you can reliably hit top of the tank with tandem while loking from the front

Not to mention lobing tandem over the tank to hit rear while shooting at front of it, also quite easy

[sharp rivet]

Im more for this kind of thing more than anything tbh https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1183084663770710087

Amd making frag actually good against infantry instead of heat

[delicate root]

Big blocks of hit box area slapped on to the front and rear without second thought

[delicate root]

Sorry, not related to the discussion

Tho ofc great ide

[sharp rivet]

Came here just to say that dw

[vocal bloom]

Exactly! Something like that would be wonderful

[vocal bloom]

I don’t think they should be nerfed, quite the contrary. I think they should be more powerful yet rare. That would make them far more valuable

[cunning musk]

6 HEAT rockets is a bit strong, but again that's the amount required to take out an MBT

[delicate root]

You can take out MBT with 3 or 5

6 rockets is definitely too much, given that there is like 20-40 engis

And you still have fuckload of C4 and AV nades

[cunning musk]

C4 yes (it should be nerfed), nades are a joke

But HEAT should be dropped to 4 and Tandem to 2

[delicate root]

Nades are not a joke

They are very good at urban maps with verticality

Or as a finisher

[cunning musk]

They are as they take up your nade slot

[delicate root]

Shoot at the rear up close, then nade

You can kill lav in that way in like 3 seconds

[cunning musk]

Ah yes, balance around optimum conditions

[delicate root]

Different problem. Frag nades are just too good

[cunning musk]

But yea, nerf amount of both

[delicate root]

Yes. That optimal condition is calles 'presence of enemy vehicle'

[cunning musk]

Make frag warheads viable

[cunning musk]

3 direct shots on the weakest part of a tank without it just fucking off

That's why C4 is so effective, you don't know until you're already dead

https://tenor.com/view/youre-already-dead-omae-wa-mou-shindeiru-fist-of-the-north-star-gif-14326210

[delicate root]

And thats terrible because there is no counterplay

[cunning musk]

I know! It is terrible

[delicate root]

And averness is abbysmal

You hear footsteps when it's to late

[cunning musk]

People be too fast and C4 be throwable

But still, 6 RPGs is a bit stronk

Basically makes relying on support rearms redundant

[delicate root]

True

Though I would prefere damage nerfs

Because the problem isn't with how much ammo you have, but how good it is for how much players use them

[cunning musk]

Nah, as someone who main support they're already kind of ehh, unless you're using them to dome infantry in buildings

[delicate root]

20-40 players in lobby, everyone can solo any vehicle

You can't limit classes, so nerfing them is onlynway to go

[cunning musk]

Yea, nerf ammo

[delicate root]

Or buffing vehicles survivability, but that's all the same

[delicate root]

No, Alpha damage

[cunning musk]

The reload is pretty long, generally by the time you've got the second shot off you're already dead

[delicate root]

Individual shots needs to hurt less

[cunning musk]

Nah, you're looking at 20+ seconds to kill a LAV and 26+ seconds to kill a tank

They get used everywhere else, and a lot of maps are city-based

They're also 1000% accurate which I think could do with a nerf

The ammo count grants forgiveness when you miss (which you will), lowering that means people will be less inclined to use them against infantry and it's more punishing against well-manned vehicles

[delicate root]

Solo

But you are not alone

Dozens of people compete with you for those kills

[cunning musk]

You'd be surprised how often you are

[delicate root]

Drones, helis, vehicles etc

[cunning musk]

If C4 did no vehicle damage in this game, vehicles would be in a much better state

[delicate root]

Not really

[cunning musk]

And if there wasn't those goofy jiggle physics each time you get hit

[delicate root]

C4 should be able to kill vehicles

Not as easy, not as often, and that shouldn't be as accessible as it is rn

[delicate root]

Assuming you run alone after campers or camp enemy spaw itself, then true.

Near points there is always more people going for kills

Getting shit by 4 engis at the same time is common on 32vs32

[cunning musk]

Yea obvs, but points are built up

That's like diving into slurry then complaining you're covered in shit

[delicate root]

But you should be PTFO

That's your main role

[cunning musk]

What

[delicate root]

Camping shouldn't be incentivised

[delicate root]

If you are playing vehicles, you should be playing point

Getting close to them

Like in BF

[cunning musk]

Yea nah, that's infantry's job

Go be fire support

[delicate root]

Otherwise you create obnoxious situations that inf calls 'camping'

[delicate root]

Amd you are supposed to be there supporting them. Not 300m away taking pot shots at windows

[cunning musk]

You cannot drive around buildings then complain you're getting blown up by RPGs

[delicate root]

That's what BF3,4,1,5,2042 allows for and incentivises. Getting close or close enough to the point. Supporting inf and occasionally spearheading pushes

Sitting 200-300+ meters from the point is pointless, especially when those areas caters to INF only, not promoting or allowing combined arms tactics

I will even go as far as to say that we need capture points designed mostly for combined arms, like in PS2. When you need inf and vehicles to capture them

You know, armour and infantry working together to not be at disadvantage

[cunning musk]

Yea but, infantry moves slower and has less movement freedom and also can't throw C4 nearly as fast in most of those games

In BB, if you drive into an urban area without significant infantry support, you're asking for it

I still think RPG quantity should be nerfed

And there are many problems with vehicles, but it sounds like you're trying to play the game like another game and it's not working, which is kinda a skill issue

[delicate root]

That's true. It shouldn't be the case.
Sure, driving alone on the Frugis C should be death sentence. But rn even getting 50m from random contested point is one. On basically every map.

[delicate root]

You say it's skill issue. Suuuure.
I say it's badly designed gameplay that doesn't incentivises but punishes proper behaviours, while creating boring and obnoxious gameplay because of that.

[cunning musk]

I mean, yea that also, vehicles are pretty badly implemented

[delicate root]

Everyone complains about vehicles camping, that's a fact. They can't do anything else really.

[cunning musk]

But I don't think you should take that out on RPG damage

That's a bad solution for a worse problem

[delicate root]

But when you say that vehicles shouldn't camp, and they should play more actively, the same people will say either 'skill issie' , or 'but vehicles should be camping'

So like, decide for once FFS

[cunning musk]

I didn't say they shouldn't camp

[delicate root]

You said they shouldn't be close on points, and there is no in between here

[cunning musk]

Camping is also shit, but again mostly because MBT main guns have 100% accuracy

[cunning musk]

There is, you just can't see it

I said you shouldn't be ON points

[delicate root]

No, there is not. You are either close enough to get crub stomped. Or you sit far enough for people to complain about camping on chat.
I haven't seen othet outcome in my playtime, and it's not short.

[delicate root]

'ON point' is basically whole point area and 50m radious more in practice.
At leats that's what danger zone looks like

Point area is bigger than a cap circle

Because fights take place all around cap circle

[cunning musk]

Yea so, stay a bit away and use your range advantage, that's not camping

[delicate root]

For majority it is.

[cunning musk]

Sitting on the edge of the map and sniping is camping

No it's not, sorry

You're getting angry at the wrong thing

[delicate root]

Trust me. I was called camper for being 80 meters from dead center of the point

Not once, not twice, more than dozen of times

[cunning musk]

I mean, that's just videogames, just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true

[delicate root]

And given how fast infantry is, and how far RPG'S can reach, you need to be 300m away to be 'safe'

[delicate root]

Sure. If that happens every second game, day after day, you get the opposite idea

You can be 100m from fight, doing your job, yet still a lot of people will consider it camping

That's how BBR works

[cunning musk]

Sorry I just flat out don't believe you now

It just sounds like you're complaining around nothing

[delicate root]

Sure. Our experiences may vary. That's normal.

[delicate root]

No, I am complaining about hypocrisy of some players.

That is in the way of improving gameplay

[cunning musk]

Lowering RPG damage won't improve gameplay, it will just guarantee everyone runs C4 and RPGs are only used on infantry, causing more complaints

[delicate root]

Like, sure. I do not find sitting 100m away camping. That's resonable range. But people do. And they complain about that.

[cunning musk]

They're bad then

They have skill issues

[delicate root]

It would. Vehicles would get more survivable, which they need. You can achive the same thing with increasing thier HP, works the same for me.

[delicate root]

Majority of playerbase is bad. Because they are casuals playing for fun

Half of each lobby has barely 1kpm 1kd

Unless that's some specific CM server like 24/7 domi/front

[cunning musk]

But, you still think you should be able to dominate a point close range with an LAV/tank?

[delicate root]

Where better players tends to gravitate

[delicate root]

No. Not dominante. Survive more than currently and longer than currently.

One vehicle shouldn't dominate. It also shouldn't be crubstomped by the neares medic or solo engineer.
When there is few dozesn of the nearby

[cunning musk]

There is a limit in that just due to the player count

Many hands make light work

I do think there should be generally more than 1 tank on maps with tanks, maybe 2-3

[delicate root]

Eh, they should be limited

[cunning musk]

Because if you're the only one, of course you're going to get all the fire

[delicate root]

They should be high value assets, but they also should live up to that

[delicate root]

That's why you need to be beffier

[cunning musk]

6 RPGs from the front isn't nothing

[delicate root]

Look at PS2 damages to vehicles

[cunning musk]

PS2 be different

[delicate root]

That's 12 seconds for 2 engis. 2 engins is very low number for this game.

You can be easily targeted by 4 or more at the same time

Because 127 players is A LOT

[delicate root]

It's suprisingly very simmilar in terms of scale to BBR

Most fights are on 50-100 per side. Rare 3 way fights.

On smaller areas

[cunning musk]

12 seconds in absolutely perfect conditions and assuming the tanker is braindead

[delicate root]

Majority of fights in PS2 take place on area smaller than District playabke area

[delicate root]

That's 3 shots each. Not hard to achive for 2 engis

The only reason I struggle with landing 3 shots on tanks is because they are dead before I relaod

Like, seriously, it's too eays to take vehicles down. Especially when they don't camp

And camping shouldn't be thier intended gameplay

[burnt ridge]

Ya so buff vehicles

[jagged flare]

Or it could be like the juggernaut from C.O.D. Were you have to earn a certain amount of points to get the unit or something like that.

Good idea CaptainCole

[floral sapphire]

This is my opinion from server Asia, but often visit EU and America. RPGs and tanks/vehicles have a close bond, and need to be discussing along.

1. Firstly, I see tanks very fragile, by RPG, yes, but more scarier, ninja with C4 kamikaze. I see tanks camping not so often, but yes they do, though I see it's not the bigger problem than c4 kamikaze.

2. Tanks, and vehicals in general should be more tankier, more health in common, have some critical spot to panatrate by RPG, but not should be fragile toward to C4. I like the orientation about armour and infantry work each other to get objective. Tanks should be a beacon for infantry depend on, and infantry surround around tank, to protect it like a valueable asset. Tanks is center to infantry when def, and the spearhead when atk. Other things I hope to see are tanks, and other vehicals, can be drived, be reponsible by actual soldiers have experieced proceed, maybe votes for order commanding vehicles, or vehicals supply in a container drop above sky down, tanks and LAVs for vehicles squadleader, other vehicles for common squad leader. More interesting if some new weapon like mortal/missle, able to drop mine, antenna for supporting commander/driver around can be apply in game.

3. About RPGs, I hope these can be varified for multiple purposes or not, just 1 kind for all matter. I like a idea that engi only needs a RPG, but have 2 kind of bullets : tandem one like now, to counter tanks, fell off like crazy, etc, but modified three things, these are lower dmg, not useful to infantry, and take 2 soldiers for conduct the process. I hope these make tanks has chance to survive, engie attack tanks must go in group and have a bond between them when decide attack a big thing. No need to creat second part when supporting fire tandem, the soldier behind just have a animation to stick with shooter, and tandem can be shot. Time for calling a friend, time for stick animation, shooter needs to stay silent, 3 things that long or short, can be modifed for balance.
   Another bullet for RPGs is HEAT or fragmention, does not impotant. I see for counter infantry, just need a kink of bullet, have a bit high velocity and not fell off like tandem, have radius and support for destroying building, like HEAT now. This thing can be conduct by personal, yes, and have low damage to vehicles, espescially tanks, but yeah, still hurt, not to much like tandem.

[marsh shale]

The RPG effectiveness doesn't need nerfing, but I'd reduce the HEAT amount to 4 and remove fragmentation entirely. The role of dropping grenades on enemies should be that of the Assault: give it a frag grenade launcher instead!

[floral sapphire]

Yeah I also agree the idea reducing amount of bullet RPG for balancing, though it'll be very sad for not much times to gift the crowd a blow I love that loud sound BLEPTTT ~ very pleased to hear that

[vocal bloom]

I think instead of an effectiveness nerf we need a limit on the number of them or find another way to obtain them

Because it makes sense that they’d be powerful and do a lot of damage, we shouldn’t make tanks RPG sponges to balance our the problem

[cunning musk]

^

I like the idea of frag RPG's, they just kind of suck. They should have a much larger blast/damage radius for the downside of zero damage to buildings or penetration on vehicles, any damage caused by one should automatically cause bleeding.

also, limit to 4 ammo, 6 is stupid

[lean birch]

Swap infantry damage of frags and heat, now frag has a use while heat is still a good all rounder.