Vehicles and Anti-Vehicle weapons

[analog lance]

I see a lot of people complaining about the survivability of vehicles and a lot of discussion around this mechanic of the game.

As others have mentioned, the APC needs a rework seriously. Having 1 guy in the vehicle is counter productive as these guys are looking for killzones, and then sit until an RPG takes them out.

BF3 had a great vehicle system, with upgrades/loadouts. Reactive armour, thermal smoke, oil cooled barrel etc etc.

we need stingers for airships.

we need helis that shoot rockets (attack choppers)

main bases need AA.

all of this could be introduced and balanced accordingly.

adding more vehicles like in BF3 with MLRS (HIMARS) trucks (with the loadout option for anti vehicle or anti infantry rockets)

infantry mortars

1 commander per team, can coordinate all squads, has a drone for spotting (increase spot bonus for drones!!!!!!) And perhaps artillery with a long cooldown

[serene phoenix]

I would be down for Lock on missiles, but only if they had proper balance and werent just fire and forget. Im level 72 and i still havent figured out how far or how little you have to lead your rockets on choppers

[cedar ferry]

I would rather just have a build AA gun that can be used on helicopters.

It can only be built on points you control and only 1 can exists on a point at any given time.

No need for heat seeking if we have aa

[main ocean]

Rockets for aircraft are in the no-no list right now

[dusty parcel]

having infantry mortars would probably need a squad point cost, especially with a 254 player server

[analog lance]

Why though, besides just "no". If balancing were to take place i dont see why i cant be a healthy mechanic. Look at BF3 and see how everything was balanced.

[analog lance]

of course. BF3 stingers took more than 1 shot. Also repairing while in the heli helped with survivability. All things need balancing for my recommendations to work. But imho the gamestate cannot stay like this while we are adding things like ribbons ?!?!?!? Nani??

[analog lance]

stingers used to take ages to lock on. If the chooper dumped flares youd lose your lock and start again. (pilot gets a lock-alert) Tanks could pop thermal smoke to break line of sight and intefere with further lock ons, and causing the lock on to start again as well. There is so much nice stuff that can be adopted from the BF franchise while keeping it in a middle ground of milsim and arcade

[analog lance]

@cedar ferry perhaps deployables could work, like a mini flak cannon. But it needs to be costly otherwise itll just dominate air. Thats why i reckon you need AA in home base, fixed structure like BF3. Can keep your local airspace clear for any "air campers" and get some pings on distant craft without being overly oppressive.

Mobile AA was introduced in the armored kill expansion but was only on select maps

[analog lance]

definitively. No objections there.

[steady yarrow]

Any sort of AA is unnecessary and stupid even, unless we get capable combat aircraft, which devs said we won't.

Lock ons would be extremely obnoxious and unbalanced on the scale BBR plays, 254 players is A LOT, especially when ammunition atrition do not exists.

APC does need rework, true, a fundamantal one too.
It definitely needs second player station, and it has to be MG, spotter seat is boring and brings less utility

And vehicle survivability needs changes. We have 127vs127 players as a main game mode, but vehicles are balanced for 32v32, because they have survivability simmilar or worse than vehicles in BF4.
Devs need to look to PS2 for an idea how to do that right

[analog lance]

@steady yarrow all true and fair. I hear you. My reason for suggesting AA is because in my mind its like this:

1. More vehicles needed, not just 1 tank and 100 Humvees, we need more combat vehicles (air and land) in each game, and needs to be balanced according to the map. (more tanks less helis/more boats less tanks etc etc you get the idea right?)
   Vehicles need options like in BF.
2. Infantry needs a way to kill these armored units. (stingers, AA, javelin whatever else)
3. Armor has abilities (flares, IR Smoke etc)
4. Engineers are actually incentivized to protect ally armor as much as nuking enemy armor.

This way we can see mechanized units actually contribute, engineers need to actually engineer (not just pick the class for ACR and HEAT RPG cos infantry goes BRRR)
Engineers will roam the map placing mines, and shooting enemy mecha

[steady yarrow]

1. True that.
2. HEAT is enough to solo a tank. Use AV nades and it's easy. C4 and tandem are basically a cruth at this point. Especially when you are not alone. We don't need lock ons, current AT options are more than enough for that.
3. It doesn't right now, and I doubt it will have. APC doesn't even have smoke ffs
4. Well, they are right now, but they just do not care. Running after kills with HEAT, C4 and PDW of choice is much more appealing strategy than basic teamwork it seems

[analog lance]

100%, apologies, for point 3 i mean, IF they end up making the changes, mecha units will be strong enough to be a target for intentional weapons made as theyll have smokes etc.

Also, to your response to point 2, not everyone is a super mega uber player who can snipe choppers with an RPG. Once there is a way to practice flying and driving, people will become way more proficient pilots/drivers.

Helis are weak af though in current state and I also would not recommend target seeking munitions until they make the other changes.

[steady yarrow]

I could see that, in point 3, but only after any meaningful changes to vehicle and thier gameplay, if that would be needed.
And about helis, they are alredy quite easy to take down. APC is very good at AA, and inf can deal with helis with sheer firepower, especially with Littlebirds

[analog lance]

100% thanks for the banter.

To get philosophical for a second, do you not think theres a missing piece if people are using APC as AA 😅 Surely theres a gap that needs filling, albeit after some meaningful balancing.

I still wanna see 5 tanks roll over a hill and all chaos breaks out 🥵

[steady yarrow]

I mean, all AFV'S with .50 cal or 20mm+ have the ability to work in AA role, and if transport helis are the biggest pray, no need for something more specialised

[steady yarrow]

@spring mist why do you disagree

[spring mist]

learn to rpg

that’s our AA

[steady yarrow]

False

LAV's are better at that

[spring mist]

Ok but there’s like at max 4 lavs on the battlefield versus 256 rpgs max

rpgs are gonna be the more prevalent thing you see

[steady yarrow]

Eh, single APC will have much more succes and by that impact on air vehicles then RPG's.

Especially with how easy it is to tail rotor helis

[chrome bison]

If you’ve ever flown a heli in game and done hot drops you’d know the heat/tandem is more than enough to take out a heli. There isn’t even cockpit armor, you don’t need auto-lock rockets. Buildable AA emplacements would be reasonable, but it should be air burst 40mm rather than any type of missile/radar setup

An AA gun truck variant should be in the game already in all fairness

[steady yarrow]

Tandem I can see, it one shots, even if that's hard shot. HEAT tho? You need 5 hits to kill, one shot with it kills only when you are burning. BH js as tanky to heat as tank itself, and more than APC.

[chrome bison]

BH takes on that same damage profile as the tank vs the heat and I agree it should be adjusted, maybe a 2-hit kill with heat seems better

[steady yarrow]

A fucking helicopter requires 2 more shots to kill with HEAT then APC, idk how you guys, but I find it fucked up

[topaz sky]

Ngl just give BH HP to APC and APC HP to HB

With that, BH wont just shrug off a literal rocket and APC wont have to go to base after every hit

[steady yarrow]

That would result in BH being imprevious to small arms, APC being vunerable to such, APC being still one shotted by tandem, but now everywhere, while BH could tank 3 heat 2 tandems

They have the same hp value 3000. They have different HP types.
APC is heavy, that means imprevious to small arms, and different damage from RPG's/C4/tanks.
BH is light type, like any other vehicle

[topaz sky]

Huh, i thought they had different HP values all this time

Not types

Well in case, obviously don't switch types

[steady yarrow]

The whole vehicle thingy is wierd af honestly

[topaz sky]

I can see that now

Well it should be doable then to make heat deal 40 vehicle dmg to BH and 20 to APC and keep the rest intact

That shouldnt be too hard

Like just make BH get more easily destroyed from heats and APC to not be as much, while BH retains being able to be damaged from small arms and for APC to be invunerable to such

[topaz sky]

The design is very human

[boreal quiver]

Helis that shoot rockets we know we aren’t getting, and that’s fair enough because that would be absolutely devastating. Infantry mortars too, because from the POV of the targets it’s just occasional random death. AA I don’t think is needed as helis aren’t that strong right now.

[topaz sky]

Tbh get like 4 engies on BH you get rocket shooting heli

[steady yarrow]

No, helis with rockets wouldn't be devastating. Sure, you would see good pilots going 200+ in every game, good pilots , but that's the same score here like 60 kills in BF. It wouldn't be devastating, but inf mains would cry

Inf mortars would be bad, but only because of scale of the game. The problemem with them wouldn't lie in how many kills they get, but how many people are using them.

[topaz sky]

I thought we agreed that mortars are a no no

[steady yarrow]

Because they are no no

Attack helis tho would be a good addition to the game, if people were more open to anything other than running around aimlessly with SMG's with search of kills while screaming against anything that affects that playstyle

[topaz sky]

Medic mains cannot comprehend the fact that their class is meant to actually help people instead of being assault but with free heals

[steady yarrow]

Rn it's also assault mains, simmilar mentality

[topaz sky]

At least assault does actual assaulting

[analog lance]

I am coming back here after digging around on reddit. The fact that FlyAce and their cronies were in the suggestions review team, and pulled the wool over everyones eyes for what seems like months claiming the little bird was in a good state, while simultaneously going 100 - 0, 150 - 0 and even 200 - 0 is telling enough that we need (or needed) heat seeking anti air. Just because 100 infantrymen could fire their AR in the air and bring down a Heli, doesn't mean that actually happens. I have gone entire matches without seeing a single heli shot down. It really depends. Are we catering for the 1% or the 99% casual base?

@boreal quiver I don't understand your sentiment, why are we all talking as if these changes are going to be absolutely gamebreaking, IMBA PLZ NERF!11!!!!11111!!!*
Ceteris Paribus* : Things can be balanced, just because heli has rockets, doesnt mean we can adjust damage multipliers? We can have 2x splash damage against buildings, 1.5x splash damage against mech units, and say even 0.5x splash multiplier against infantry.

In BF2 and BF3 I could easily identify if a chooper was shooting rockets at me because firstly, they couldnt cross map beam you, they were about 150m away max and you knew that shit was coming from a heli with that "Shoop Shoop Shoop Shoop Shoop" sound. Chilling...

Anyways, I guess theres more important things that need balancing, and also removing the rot within the teams (see the FlyAce saga on reddit).

[steady yarrow]

Wow.

What a ignorance

[spring mist]

and what happened to the littlebird? Physics removed, damage range butchered, total death to it

and flyace moved on

your point?

[steady yarrow]

It's 100% reddit side of the drama ONLY

[topaz sky]

Yap yap yap

[analog lance]

ok but don't feign ignorance please guys, this was directly in the review team xD

[steady yarrow]

Idk about 'suggestion, feedback ,team' thing

[steady yarrow]

No one knows what happes there, so yeah

[analog lance]

blah blah blah contribute please bud.

[steady yarrow]

FlyAce was good, they knew how to fly and play LB, it's just reddit that get a siezure when someone is playing well

[analog lance]

Please enlighten me, im just saying what ive sen, if you got info for me let me know, ill change my mind

[steady yarrow]

They went on a 2 week long witch hunt

[analog lance]

ok but also, what im higlighting here is that the skill ceiling goes very high, and you end up with domineering forces that cannot be contested

[steady yarrow]

Chceck rule 8 on subreddit

[analog lance]

especially when half the team runs around like headless chickens

[analog lance]

taking a look

[steady yarrow]

Lack of skill on player part is no reason for adding brain dead tools like AA lock ons,

Lb even at thier peak were easily countered by LMG's, 7m and HMG jeeps

Tanks also

[analog lance]

what strawman is this, im not witchhunting, im just stating what HAPPENED

[steady yarrow]

APC's especially

[analog lance]

doesnt mean it never happened because everyone moved on

[analog lance]

thats fair, i hear you

[steady yarrow]

Not a straw man. I am just saying that your 'stating what happend' is very one sided, on the perpetrator side. You lack objectivity in describing that drama

[analog lance]

look, appeasing everyone will never happen

[topaz sky]

Lets be real here, LB is sometimes annoying but AA is not yet needed

[analog lance]

noted

[topaz sky]

It was infact busted ages ago

But not now

[analog lance]

yeah, look, in my OP i was stating it would be needed if they add what I was reckoning

like more Attach choppers etc

in the current meta, not a chance

[spring mist]

Which they won’t add

[analog lance]

more than likely

[spring mist]

!aircraft

[swift dawn]

What aircraft may be added, or not..?

Due to some programming constraints & some design decisions:

• Player piloted planes or jets will not be added, as our maps are too small, and cannot be made bigger.

• Attack helicopters with rockets/bombs will not be added, this was a design decision.

• There may at some point be an airstrike call in, you can use Squad points on.

[topaz sky]

Homestly if you have like 4 engies minimum you can get rocket heli

[analog lance]

Can I ask you guys @spring mist @topaz sky @steady yarrow whats your vision of how BBR would look like

what do you guys look for in the game?

seriously asking

[spring mist]

Fun chaotic 127v127 matches regardless of playstyle

[analog lance]

do you feel like theres anything left to be desired?

[topaz sky]

Maps that actually allow all classes to shine

[analog lance]

this is why i want more spot bonus for recon 50pts is too min for me

[topaz sky]

Rather than having one class have a inherent advantage

Like recon on dusty

[spring mist]

I played night dusty and it was fucking amazing, no snipers at all

[topaz sky]

Like dusty is a good sniping map, just not a good map for everyone else

[analog lance]

I helped teams so much over the weekend just using drone and spotting, I could see from the air when i spotted groups they got instawiped. its very powerful but hardly anyone spots

[topaz sky]

One advantage of night maps, no snipers

Its weird how despite the state of snipers they are still sort of a problem

Its more of a map issue than actual class issue

[analog lance]

Coming from me, definitley below average aim and gunplay, i think DMRs are pretty stronk

[topaz sky]

Oh they are absolutely busted af

Svd main on engie absolute monster

[analog lance]

yep

SVD is my baby

long silencer and mid scope ez 2.0 kdr

[topaz sky]

Long supp and verti my beloved

[analog lance]

I wish i backed during patreon, couldnt afford it at the time 😓

I have crossed my comment, but have left it visible for accountability instead of wiping it.

[analog lance]

Tell me the other side of events pls, can DM me even. I'd like to know what actually went on from all sides

[boreal quiver]

Oh it can be balanced, but since troop concentrations vary so heavily in this game it is going to be extremely context dependant. A solution that is on average balanced is absurdly unfair on one map and useless on another.

Therefore you will have people complaining about it being unbalanced even if you could claim it’s objectively an overall “fair” solution, and those claims would be based in reality

[analog lance]

fair, fair thanks @boreal quiver

[steady yarrow]

Majority of LB problem was Waki bridge and popularity of that map. the rest was collusion, which mods failed to stop for like weeks

[steady yarrow]

Battlefield, but better bigger and some milsim sprinkled in

Game feels more like CoD than BF rn tho

[analog lance]

Thats what I'm looking for as well with my suggestions but lets see how it goes, I don't know the first thing about making a game or balancing one for that matter

I just hope the game lasts another few years is all

[analog lance]

what about limiting vehicles on certain maps, e.g. some maps where attack choppers are too oppresive, replace with transport or something? idk

[boreal quiver]

I guess that works, but I’d much rather have the cool vehicles enabled more universally

[spring mist]

like what maps

[analog lance]

just in general. lets use the waki bridge as an example, hectic choke point killzone.

actually talking about waki, last night my gaming friend (very casual player) asked me if theres artillery in the game because of the sheer number of nades and RPGs going off at the bridge head. it was nuts.

I forget the name of that map now, with the beached container ship in the middle. I can totally envision more tanks, and some attack helis going around.

That map is actually pretty massive

chuck in some HIMARS and youve got yourself a proper battlebit experience 😅

am i persuading anyone yet? haha

[spring mist]

Basra

I don’t like it anymore

Rework fucked it up

[analog lance]

cos theres not enough vehicles 😉

haha jk jk

[spring mist]

nah there’s plenty

[analog lance]

jeeps dont count 😛

[spring mist]

Waki, especially for littlebird, is very hit or miss. Either everyone’s on the bridges fighting for C or it’s one team dominating C

And the APCs and the tanks

[analog lance]

i read something about balancing once, and it went something like this, paraphased:
"nothing is overpowered if everything is overpowered" 🤣

just playing though, that would be disgusting^