Not allowing snipers/vehicules to shoot from their spawn

[umbral urchin]

I believe many of us can agree that snipers shouldn't be able to shoot from their spawn (safe zone) as well as tanks and cars.
Ultimately, if your side (RUSSIAN OR US) is dominated, and you have zero capture points, you can, otherwise not. Because ennemies in their spawn(safe zone) shooting you from like 500m while YOU are playing the objective to help your team is very frustrating, particularly when you cant fight them back because of the safe zone.
Tanks shooting from their spawn is also an issue, and if you're lucky enough to hit them they'll just repair easily.
👉 Example: If the player remains in spawn for more than 5 mins they can no longer shoot, to avoid kills from the spawn,and one person in a vehicles( tank ext).

[sleek bobcat]

Could also move the part of the safe zone that doesn’t allow for shooting forwards. Just Don’t move it all the way to the edge as that would make the other team able to easily farm the spawn zone.

[lusty thistle]

I think you underestimate how that would fuckover so many teams with spawncamping

would have to be a bit more dynamic based on my map

[umbral urchin]

Example: If the player remains in spawn for more than 5 mins they can no longer shoot, to avoid kills from the spawn,and one person in a vehicles( tank ext).

[lusty thistle]

seeing how many gamemodes where that happens alot

i say again, you underestimate how many teams that would fuckover allowing a push to the border.

[umbral urchin]

I don't underestimate, if you like to be killed by a tank/vehicles/sniper who is at the spawn and who doesn't move from his game with his airdroop then nothing is going to change.

[lusty thistle]

oh but allowing players to be killed all the way till they run to the border where they will die because the enemy is right up against is better?

or are you saying do no damage to players till they are on the border? allowing safe reups of entire squads right in front of the enemy?

[hallow quartz]

Agreed on not being able to shoot from spawn, but not on a timer they 'll just dip out and go back in. You shouldn't be able to shoot at all from the zone

[umbral urchin]

Or you can kill people who have stayed +5 mins in the spawn.

Like 90% of snipers or sure tanks/vehicles

[lusty thistle]

yeah just step out, reset the time. only vehicles would suffer from it. even as it is, spawn camping in vertain gamemodes are prevalent enough that not being able to be in "spawn" to fight out would again fuck over players and teams.

also means they have 5 min of invulnerability if they can shoot

and if they cant then its unfair

and if they cant but they cant die then a squad can reup no matter how much danger they should have been in

[umbral urchin]

You just forgot that if you play the objectives you don't need to spawn in the safe zone.

Then, yes, you have to adjust to certain game modes.

[lusty thistle]

almost like for some gamemodes thats not always the case

and if a team is pushed to their spawn? what then?

tell them to just leave and find another server?

[umbral urchin]

Bypassed by the end is not that full rush straight for 10 mins like the 3.7/4 of the people

[lusty thistle]

fighting a border like that would either be useless and terrible to do, a la there is limited cover near in the area you can fight

or useless in stoping this because it provides enough cover to do so

which might fix vehicles since they need very specific locations to fight, not so much snipers

[sterile bronze]

why did you spell it "vehicules" its vehicles

[umbral urchin]

Mistranslation

[sterile bronze]

all good

[real rose]

That would cause an issue with people spawn farming but purposefully leaving one point uncaptured to prevent people in that spawn from fighting back

[umbral urchin]

What solution do you propose?

[young glacier]

maybe there could be a soft safe zone that allows shooting (say 20-30m from border) to prevent spawn trapping?

[real rose]

Should only apply to snipers in the safe zone, and vehicles out of RPG distance

[young glacier]

to add to this: it would be in shooting back range of enemies to avoid safezone camping

[umbral urchin]

it could be a solution

[lusty thistle]

would be about 200 meters.

[shy wadi]

It also makes a problem of people hording the tanks and not using them to clear sites for capture

[umbral urchin]

Sure

[quaint iris]

this is just pushing players to camp instead of pushing sites. bad feature request.

[quaint shadow]

I think you're giving the average player a lot more credit than they deserve when it comes to being both organized, and intelligent.

[teal silo]

I believe many of us can agree that snipers shouldn't be able to shoot from their spawn (safe zone) as well as tanks and cars.
while that might be true, how often do you actually get killed from a sniper from their spawn? probably little, and how often does that actively interrupt your gameplay? very likely astronomically low probability

the tanks part I am fine with btw, but constantly changing things for snipers feels like random ass changing for the sake of change, snipers are already at a gigantic disadvantage now, why now push them more into the map? they are snipers, they should operate medium+ range, at this point you could legit remove the whole recon class cause its useless

[umbral urchin]

it happens more often than you say when you capture the side next to their spawn, otherwise it touches you is while you heal are friend rushes you/tue

[umbral urchin]

so it's normal for a sniper to play in his spawn with a construction that we can't kill/touch and he has his airdroop so unlimited ammunition, how does he contribute to playing the objectives?

[teal silo]

not every single player has to actively play "the objective", snipers kill the enemy snipers for example

it happens more often than you say when you capture the side next to their spawn,
it would be great to have some data on this

and to be honest: if the enemy snipers are killing you from within their spawn, it might be your playstyle which is the issue, if snipers can hit you again and again at 500m+ range, you are not covering your ass enough / standing still too long

[umbral urchin]

I'm constantly on the move and always jumping even when I'm running, but I often take running/jumping head shots. In kills/minutes I'm at +2500, so I never stay still.

[umbral urchin]

I agree, but I don't want to spend the whole game in the spawn/safe zone, because they know very well that they're untouchable, so there's nothing they can do about it.

[umbral urchin]

Yes in the 3,5/4 we take the points with my team from their spawn to win the game we let the other players play the points in the center, if they can't capture the points in the center we'll help them.

[teal silo]

thing is, i have played long hours with a lot of different people and of those people no one complained about snipers sitting in their safezone, for me and my peers, this is something which is not an issue

you say you find that often, data on that "kills with weapon (as class) within safezone" would be very helpful to have

anectodal evidence always sucks, your evidence sucks as much as mine, not comparable to anything and has no point for a objective view on that topic

polls would sadly not work either, inherently biased on where you poll

we need data, lots of data, devs should work on creating a framework which you could use for decisions like this

[compact aurora]

The devs already have heatmaps of players, including snipers, where they are killed and where they get killed from, so they know

or at least they have the capability to know

[shy wadi]

I've been getting killed by safezone camping snipers a lot in the last few days. It almost feels like the sniper changes made them able to hit shots a lot easier. I think that's mainly due to the spotting changes, but they get me like crazy even when I'm jump weaving. I try to be behind the enemy as much as possible, though, so I'm usually where the snipers can see me from spawn. I think this whole topic is very playstyle-dependent. If you're someone who plays the front line, you won't have an issue with the safezone campers. But if you like to pull off big flanks, then it's a much bigger issue.

[long shard]

this

"i dont like it therefore it's objectively bad"

[storm ocean]

@umbral urchin tell me. You are OK with vehicles being able to be destroyed while in saze foze. And for them do be defenceless there? It's not a problem to wait for them to show up and just spam them with HEAT/Tandem or use a drone, which they couldn't even destroy. That's your point?

What about being spawn locked? IT DOES happens. Should whole team be defenceless there, or should only vehicles and recons be punsished?

[real rose]

Not only is it possible for this to happen with just one organised squad in lower player count servers, but it often happens accidentally regardless of planning

[storm ocean]

He's not. That's quite common occurence. LittleBird with RPG'S camping helis is rarer and requires much more teamwork

Situations like spawn camping enemy vehicles and ratting on back cap are the most common examples of teamwork

And that does happens

[umbral urchin]

Ok so you in view of your answer, you play tank in the saze foze and if an RPG touches you you do t'est 2 meters to be repaired, I just say that there is a problem (in view of the YES votes I'm not the only one to think so) so = solution. you did not even read my

👉 Example: If the player remains in spawn for more than 5 mins they can no longer shoot, to avoid kills from the spawn,and one person in a vehicles( tank ext).

[lusty thistle]

shitty example as spawn pushes can happen and last much longer than 5 min.

come up with something that wouldn't fuck over a team in common situations

[umbral urchin]

Propose my Example

It can reduce the safe zone too it is big very big

[lusty thistle]

its either big enough to make this not a problem and fuck over teams on top of it, because its blocking any fighting points in the "blue"

or its worthless because it doesn't block those spots

[storm ocean]

You can't get kills while sitting in spawn further than first point, in which case, enemy spanw locks you, or sth simmilar, and he needs to deal with conswquence that you are close to your main base. Exeption to that are Sandy and Valley, but that's map issue, and those maps need rework anyways.

[storm ocean]

While fighting off enemy backcap/spawn lock, those fight can take a lot longer if enemy team is better. 5 min is enough for RTB, but not for contesting point while spawn locked. And because points are relatively close to the spawn border 100-150m max, you will stay in zone, because you as a player, want to leverage your advantage against enemies, in this case its tank range, with 100 being nothing. That's just how the game plays. Getting closer when you don't need to is just asking fo4 C4 or duble tandem in the ass

[storm ocean]

That's point of people that complain about that. In thier eays contesting first point while using your range advantage, is spawn camping. Shooting from first point to second point, while out of spawn is spawn camping, because you are outside C4 range. The true spawn camping its basically impossible on majority of maps, and even then very much ineffective, because above 400m, only AP isn't a chore to use

There is also a phenomenon with spanw camping 'evidence' when people will use ss of vehicles directly on road, very probably during RTB, which tanks do often, or ss of vehicles in safe zone, gun backwards to playable area, calling it spawn camping without any further context

But no one is willing to show a recording of a tank realy sitting 15 min in spawn zone and taking pot shots at 500m away

[teal silo]

data like

vehicle position over time
would be awesome to have

[storm ocean]

Yeah, true, would confirm that vehicles definitely don't push into 'enemy' half

[storm ocean]

Devs probably have those heat maps

[lavish moss]

there's not a single map where the first point out of base doesn't have some form of indestructible cover you can stay behind and if that's not enough for you then you can just build some

if you keep getting farmed by tanks and snipers because you can't hold yourself back from running at them then that's your own problem

[storm ocean]

That's ture, tho I will say that the amount of indestructible cover is not enough. But that's a map issue, and affects every map.

[storm ocean]

Untouchable is a big and not true word here. They take damage all the same. You can shoot with AP, HEAT that has 500m range, tandem with 250m ramge, C4 drone, C4 car, c4 quad. The only tactic that is impossible to use it just C4, but that's ok, it's alredy broken as fuck.

[umbral urchin]

It's true that know THAT my problem is to get focused by snipers and safezone tanks when we're not on the point(s) close to their spawn, so according to you, we shouldn't play the objectives.

[umbral urchin]

C4 because, c4 quad almost no one does this AND if you're lucky enough to get to them before the 10 second mark when you're in their safe zone know your solution? rare are the tanks that go looking for people in the other safezone to help control the point next to their safe zone, rare are your sniper allies that move forward to have enough range to kill the sniper(s) in the safe zone SO ...

and DMR

[lusty thistle]

there are ways to avoid thier fire, because they have one angle and one angle only. and on most maps its the same angle.

[storm ocean]

Tanks don't go past middle point mostly because:

1. They run out of ammo really fast
2. They are slow enough to not be able to retreat fast enough, and will be left alone and picked up by inf
   It's not because it's better to stay in safe zone lol.
   Pushing gives you more kills, but it's totally not sustainable

[lusty thistle]

they got like 24 rounds total right?

[storm ocean]

The fact that not many people are using very effective tactic doesn't mean its not effective. Just use it.

[storm ocean]

14 AP, useless against inf
14 HE, not as effective as should be for that amount

If your team pushes, you have ammo for pushing one point, assuming you aren't conserving it

You can maybe push 2 poitns if you use coax a lot, and that's it. 4 min RTB you go

[umbral urchin]

you forget the people who arrive to defend their objective you are in combat with a person go a hit from the sniper who is in his safe zone, and then 20 seconds later another, after the tank on his (mountain) in his safe zone that finishes you, gg you helped defend the objective that is next to your safe zone in your safe zone gg the gameplay

[lusty thistle]

oh no, that person was an idiot and decided to run in the open

smokes work now.

sniper nests are obvious, especailly in the safe zone

tank and apc nests are obvious, even more so when they sit in the safe zone

[umbral urchin]

you yourself say that a tank doesn't push half the map, so getting to the safe zone is a miracle, so this technique has a 30% success rate, for you the solution is C4 cars wow

[lusty thistle]

these things don't change spots. they usualyl have one angle to look at you

if you cannot figure out where those nests are after 2 games on each map, that's on you

[storm ocean]

???

[umbral urchin]

lol I have +500 hours of games I know the game come play one day with the team (141) you'll see,not to mention the hours of playtesting before the game's release

[storm ocean]

Could you rephrase your message?

[lusty thistle]

oh wow

and you never figured this out?

man you got some problems

[lavish moss]

you gotta wonder what the playtests were good for given the state the game was released in lol

[umbral urchin]

yes we've never understood it, we're not that bad sorry

[lusty thistle]

lol

you playtesters were the reason for the vehicles current state

so saying you playtested doesn't give much confidence in your replies or ideas.

[umbral urchin]

descrimination? ok, to tell you at the playtest there wasn't this gameplay, people played the rare players/cars objectives that stayed in the safe zone.

[storm ocean]

Could you elaborate on that?

[lusty thistle]

"Vehicles are too powerful" and many other variations of that

[lavish moss]

I suppose people were just bad at the game initially and things got balanced around that lack of experience

[umbral urchin]

if you want I’ll stream for you today to show you

[lusty thistle]

they had more ammo, did more damage, were faster, faster turret rotation, more elevation and so on

but no, they were too powerful

[storm ocean]

Oh man, there was a lot of crying about them being bad during playtestes. Before suggestion purge there were posts from mid 2022 about buffs to them.
Oki just duly ignored them

[lusty thistle]

so now people who use them don't want to wait 6 min to grab one, drive for 3 more, shoot once then die

[storm ocean]

Those are ancient times man, pre 2023

[umbral urchin]

Your solution knows that the tank arrives by chance to the points of the objective to help destroy the tank that is in safe zone or it can make 2 meters to repair is reloaded know unlimited ammunition, if your tank has THE chance to kill one(s) snipers last know full sandbag built, or suicide C4/cars as you have 10sc before dying from safe zone (snipers) are much further, ah yes gg the solution lol

[storm ocean]

Are you using google translate?

[umbral urchin]

Yep

sorry..

[storm ocean]

Right, that's explains it

[storm ocean]

No problem man, don't worry

[lavish moss]

All good but FYI in case you need to do it for something more important (work/school) I've found that ChatGPT is better at giving more natural translations

[lusty thistle]

the problem is the tank ain't actually helping. And I never put forward anyideas, I said yours was shit

[storm ocean]

That's true

[umbral urchin]

I use deepl, not thought of ChatGPT

[umbral urchin]

It’s not my idea either

[lusty thistle]

literally your post

[umbral urchin]

you misread my main post

[umbral urchin]

no one else has an opinion ?

[formal ether]

.

Bumped to see if there are any other opinions on this.

[storm ocean]

Not allowing vehicles to shoot from safe zone basically makes them unable to defend themselfs against people camping exits and shooting them while in spawn zone. Behaviour that alredy exists. The same can be said about infantry players, if they try to run out of safe zone to join a fight, without abilty to fight back, they coule be easily camped . Also, if any player is unable to shoot out of safe zone, every other player shouldn't be able to do so, to keep the game fair.

[torn finch]

this shit will be aids for everyone involved so some spawncamping engenier can bust 10 times for every vehicle that tries to get into the fight
snipers can no longer chris kyle from 1000m+ which is also sad, what else do you want to use a sniper for (ik shotgunning and aggressive reacon exists but not everyone likes that and sniping from a far is very good to relax)

[storm ocean]

Making spawn protection zone bigger would be a solution, assuming there is still area that allow you to defend yourself while trying to leave the spawn.

[teal silo]

I think it should really be limited to vehicles not being able to shoot from their spawn

snipers that hang that far back are usually not a big issue for anyone except the others team snipers which would do the same, pushing the snipers closer to the combat makes long-range combat even less attractive as it is already

[storm ocean]

So vehicles should be defenceless form campers, but everyone not?

People alredy take engi and camp enemy spawn to kill vehicles, now vehiclea will be defencless, so people will do that more

[teal silo]

if you hit a vehicle that is withing the enemy spawn with an rpg and destroy it, ngl you should get the kill lol

People alredy take engi and camp enemy spawn to kill vehicles, now vehiclea will be defencless, so people will do that more
my personal experience is not much of "evidence", but as far as I am concerned the main "deaths" vehicles face is not withing their spawn when they are defenseless, perhaps the "activate-fire" line could be within the safezone of the vehicle but like 50 meters into the spawn?

[storm ocean]

The active frie zone is OK, but making vehicles defencless is just asking for people to camp more

[umbral urchin]

render vehicles defenseless once a person has used them, or leave them invincible

[umbral urchin]

Yes, it could be a solution to reduce the last safe zone a bit.

[umbral urchin]

Example: If the player remains in spawn for more than 5 mins they can no longer shoot, to avoid kills from the spawn,and one person in a vehicles( tank ext).

[storm ocean]

What if spawn lock is longer than 5m? Those situations can happen, even tho rarely

[umbral urchin]

She can easily get out of the safe zone by the ends of the hills, which no one thinks of doing instead of rushing straight ahead.

[alpine iris]

yeah dont let snipers shoot from spawn

or vehicles

[storm ocean]

Again, that's asking for them being defenceless and easy to kill while still in spawn. YOU SHOULD be able to defend yourself in any place. Spaw zone included, especially when you can take damage.

If you can be damaged, you should be able to do damage, simple.

[hallow quartz]

When you can only be damage by another reacon its not balanced

Or you think someone is running in an open space to kill a sniper

[lusty thistle]

how many times is a recon in a spawn actually a problem.

most of the time that would put them in AR range, or there's other spots in the map not in their spawn that puts them just as far away

as for vehicles not shooting in spawn would mean more engy squads just chilling outside the border waiting for them to show up.

[storm ocean]

Literally what I want to explain to those people

[umbral urchin]

yes

[umbral urchin]

Yes, it's easy when the car is at the bottom of the safe zone and it's hard to hit it even with an RPG.

[lusty thistle]

at that point it isn't a problem

[umbral urchin]

[lusty thistle]

if its in spawn it isn't a problem most of the time, if its hard to hit with an RPG then its not gonna be a problem for most things anyway.

[sleek bobcat]

Have you played invasion?

Or frontline

[lusty thistle]

like I said, hardly a problem if its in a safe zone. in invasion you are close enough most of the time to hit it easily. in frontline it can be useless of to the side somewhere I guess, getting kills on people that don't know its there, but otherwise hardly a massive problem unless you are trying to kill it by traveling in front of its gun.

[storm ocean]

Invasion has this problem, that safe zone is so fucking big, and contested area so fucking small, that you don't have any other options if you want to keep any range advantage

Like, tensa town, as russians, geting out of safe zone on first set of points puts you uncomfortably close to enemies, 50-80 meters. You don't want to be in AR range as a snjper, and you don't want to enter city as a vehicle

Current implementation of vehicles, and sniping in general, rewards you for keeping range andvantage, and INV just has to small contested area to do so and not be in safe zone

You can do that on Valley, if you are spawn locking enemies, or on Wine, maybe, but other maps require you to sit in spawn zone, otherwise you are getting to close

[umbral urchin]

If it's a problem

[umbral urchin]

Up

[hallow quartz]

Still an issue on invasion and frontline

[storm ocean]

And on INV it will not change

Safe zone is just too big

[narrow dome]

My actual true problem is not being able to flanc sniper that are camping in their spawn, Just disable recon class in the spawn

Or force player to move from their spawn, so they can't camp in it and it force them to play the objective or play with their team
Like a limit of 2 to 5 minutes maximum in the spawn (the time they can leave the spawn, if they don't leave, it kill them (like betreyal or something like that) or tp them out of spawn or force them to spawn on a team mate

And for the vehicle, don't destroy the vehicle, just kill the player in it or
make transport/tank vehicles take more and more damage if they want to stay in the spawn (exponentially until it's impossible to repair)

[lusty thistle]

shit idea as usual. don't know why this keeps getting traction.

[hallow quartz]

you are the 10%

[lusty thistle]

you guys are actually the 10% lol. everyone else just sees the stupid post and ignores it

anyway, as has been said many times before this would just fuck over teams that are getting spawncamped. so no, this is never going to happen.

[storm ocean]

The best thing is, most people that call for this change propably don't play recon or vehicles, and just don't understand realities of the game. They lack perspective of opposite side, and are guided by thier percuved inconveniences

[narrow dome]

I actually played recon and I was kind of feeling bad for being able to stay at my spawn and kill people, the only thing is that i didn't have anyone beside me at this moment, but i already seen people staying together at spawn with sniper and reviving each other... like it's so stupid because you are not even able to throw a c4 or grenade because other people are spawning on them and protecting the zone around the spawn...

[storm ocean]

Well, the game currently incentivies and rewards you for staying as far from enemy as possible. You get more XP for long range shots, you are safer, sniping is easy with M200 at 1500 velocity.

There is no reason to play up close with sniper

[plucky loom]

The problem with people camping in spawn points is that they just too large, all the maps are too large for the gameplay allowing players to sit on the far far outskirts and shoot without being contested unless by recons or vehicles, the zalfibay islands for example. i dont even bother with them cause why waste 3-4 minutes getting to those islands for a couple kills then have to travel back and thats if i make it across the water cause god forbid i switch to recons to kill a couple campers

[teal silo]

it would be awesome if someone would have ever mentioned that the velocites are way too fast oh wait i did countless times and yet nothing happened

[storm ocean]

I mean, that's a obvious thing among players that have room temperatrure or higher IQ

[vagrant wind]

Except it’s fun

[storm ocean]

Fun is extremly subjective

[vagrant wind]

Nah, you just don’t know how to objectify it.

[storm ocean]

How to objectify not physical thing?

[umbral urchin]

UP

[torn finch]

https://tenor.com/view/jebaited-low-quality-bait-wavy-man-gif-26402013

[storm ocean]

DOWN

[umbral urchin]

https://tenor.com/view/hasbulla-gif-22745503

[open siren]

Whilst this thread is alive let me just.. point out a match someone posted a month ago where the team started out with 20 spawn snipers. Literally 10 minutes in iirc it was like this and stayed like this

But sure reddit, spawn sniping isn’t a problem and somehow “promotes teamwork” by giving your team objectively bad spawns away from the action, and effectively leaving them at least one man down in fights where that could potentially make the difference.

inb4 “cherry picked!!” Even though this is literally what happens when a significant amount of your team refuses to leave spawn, because where else do the attacking players spawn whilst their points are being taken?

[teal silo]

given that the enemies have captured all flags and you and another teammate died very short past your own base, it is assumable that the enemies have completely pinned your team against the base, I fail to see what your argument is here

[lusty thistle]

he thinks 20 people from a 127 game playing sniper made his team lose

[teal silo]

do you want to argue for enemies pinning you to your base using snipers? I would doubt it, that kind of base-pinning does not originate from enemy snipers allone

[sick elk]

He's also mentoning that the other team had exactly the same number of snipers

[open siren]

Not my game. Point is all it takes is a decent chunk of people not pushing outside of spawn to lose. Pretty much a snowball effect.

Enemy snipers did push up for better spawns which made the difference.

Camping in spawn (in general tbf not exclusive to sniper) only benefits the one person doing it - they might as well not be in a squad

Now if you’re spawn trapped to hell and you’re just joining in fair enough. But if your team has points they need to defend so this situation is less likely to happen… maybe players should get into position to defend them instead of taking potshots at random enemies at spawn?

[teal silo]

Camping in spawn (in general tbf not exclusive to sniper) only benefits the one person doing it - they might as well not be in a squad
you are talking like everyone that is not actively capping points is essentially worthless for the teams chance of getting out of a situation like this

[open siren]

If they’re defending points, I wouldn’t be making this argument. Most don’t

Hell I love supports that actively build fortications on a point, infact I sometimes do it myself

[teal silo]

so, by your definition, actively preventing a potential flank of the enemy does not contribute to winning the match, thats just flawed

[open siren]

Most potential flankers actively taking points are not rushing to your spawn point. Maybe ticket farmers/people going for kills, sure. But players going for backcaps probably don’t want to be a glowing beacon for the enemy.

[sick elk]

Surely you know the golden rule of BBR players: "anyone not playing in my favored playstyle is ruining the game for everyone"

[open siren]

I don’t think it’s game ending, Just not something that promotes teamwork. We should try to promote it more

Ideally spotting woild be more practical in certain situations over sniping too. Same with riot shield on assault, mdx, etc…

[sick elk]

I think there are more fundamental causes to the lack of teamwork in this game other than snipers shooting from spawn.
How about:

• 90% of squad leads doing absolutely nothing
• Players who have absolutely no interest in teamplay having to be in squads
• Squad leaders not placing rally points.
• Squad leaders not setting objectives.
• Squad types being absolutely meaningless

[teal silo]

I would love to have a heatmap to stop this nonsenseical debate I could now have with derpster

[open siren]

Honestly, I would love one too

If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. But if it shows a problematic trend it’s something that should be addressed

[open siren]

In general, SLs should be less and squad types should have some more practicality. That I agree with

[sick elk]

In general though people just don't want to teamplay, so many times I've tried to make the squad i'm in play together and it usually just ends up with people telling me to go fuck myself

[sick elk]

The problem is there's no way to replace SLs other than requesting orders, and all they do then is just switch between 2 objectives and go back to ingoring their role

[open siren]

There technically is a way, but it involves glitching so.. yeah

Could base who gets priority on SL based on level, but that might case problems too

[teal silo]

yep, I have tried to do the SL in a serious way, little to no one cared
in the cases where my squad cared though, we absolutely destroyed the enemy defenses on their points

[sick elk]

oh? is that how people have been ousting me as SL without requesting orders

[open siren]

Yeah

Basically people who wanna actually sl just do glitch because of all the afk SLs marking 2 objs then going back to afk

[sick elk]

I don't even know why AFK SLs are so determined to stay as squad leads, the benefits are minimal. Why not just let someone else do the job

I mean you don't get to place rally points if you're not SL but they're not doing that anyway

[open siren]

Same case for me. When it works and teammates help, everyone’s happy. When it doesn’t work it just feels like a wasted squad

[open siren]

Xp farming

[sick elk]

It doesn't give that much XP though

They should make it so you can only get XP from squad members within a certain radius

[open siren]

People will do that + afk near a “populated” area then watch it rack up

Even though relay exists

[sick elk]

Yeah but it's a lot harder to go AFK right next to a giant firefight

[storm ocean]

I think there is much more to that. Teamwork is basically working together, players supporting themselves and filling up needed roles (Look Helldivers, DRG etc).
Why there is barely to no teamwork in BBR? Because every player, at baseline is very capable, very independent, and squad spawning makes death irrelevant.
Every player has more than enough ammo for their short life, and they resupply automatically when they die, no reason to search or stick close to support.
Every player can heal himself 2/3 times to full HP, majority of playerbase will die quicker, no reason to search or stick close to medic
Every player has C4, making destruction, anti tank, or room clearing trivial and available to everyone, no reason to work with classes that specialize in that like engi or friendly armor.
Movement gives a LOT of freedom, you don't need anyone to cover your back, you don't need to stick to your teammates for safety, you can jump in between kills or cover.
PTFO is in tragic state, no reason for anyone stepping up and doing SL work, everyone runs around and farms kills.
Squad spawning in it's current form makes death not punishing at all, and allows you to teleport across the map, making transport vehicles like helis used to RP only, APC isn't used at all.
So get all of those above combined, and every one is some kind of super soldier that benefits from playing solo, because only kills matter, instead of slowing down and working with squad/teammates.

[open siren]

I’ve mainly seen them hide in buildings/bushes when doing that, take that info as you will

[sick elk]

Squad spawning only has some effect. Half the time the squad have no self awareness and will run into gunfiure to the last without giving their squadmates any chance to respawn on them

[storm ocean]

Squad spawning is probably the stupidest mechanic in the game, that works against what BBR want's to be. Even Oki on devcast stated that it's a problem, and will need some work.
It literally makes your death irrevelant. You died, and what now? Spawn on your squad mates. You get instantly teleport near some fight will full HP and ammo. It makes transport vehicles obsolete, it makes ratting, long flanks, capping points super easy. You can spawn 7 players on one guy, just like that, no restrictions.
It makes many mechanic pointless. It's just problematic.

[sick elk]

It does need reworking, but my experience of trying to spawn on squadmates if spending ages watching the map waiting to be able to spawn on a squadmate, Seeing one being out of combat and then either having the spawn menu select the wrong squadmate or having my squadmate get back into combat before i can spawn on them

[umbral urchin]

"We understand, you have a grudge against squad leads, BBR from the beginning, it's been like this, you want to change a huge game mechanic since its creation? By "Oki" constantly listening to everyone and changing everything, there won't even be 1,5k players left, do you want only 300 players to remain? That's not the topic here, thank you

[sick elk]

A grudge against squad leads from the beginning? I sure hope you've got something to back that up, because nothing I've written here, or anywhere suggests that. I play squad lead often.

[sly mauve]

who? what mod team

?

[sick elk]

Oh no ignore that

Op is op poster not server op

been spending too long in irc

But still I have no grudge against squad leads or squad spawning or the concept of squads in general. I'm not really sure why someone would suggest i do.

[cloud hollow]

If you shoot in spawn, you lose spawn protection

That might solve the issue, allowing players to kill those who actually pose a threat, but not completely screwing over the losing team

[storm ocean]

You can't shoot when you have spawn protection

Fundamental and obvious feature honestly

If you can shoot, you can take damage

[cloud hollow]

I’m saying, if the issue is that players shoot out of spawn, which makes them unable to be hit, allowing them to be hit would solve the issue, no?

[storm ocean]

And it's not like you have any LoS on enemy players while under spawn prot at main

[storm ocean]

They are totally able to be hit, take damage, or die while they are in blue zone

[cloud hollow]

Then why not just shoot the players in it?

[storm ocean]

You can't be hit, take damage etc, or shoot when you are in main base, where you spawn at the begging and where vehicles and resuplies are

[storm ocean]

Idk man, I do that. Ask those 178 people that voted ✅

[gusty ridge]

I think the issue for those is not that you can't shoot them but rather that you can't get close enough to do any meaningful damage

[storm ocean]

But you can. Its not even hard lol

People are just to lazy to do that. Like with countering LB pre overnerf

[gusty ridge]

[storm ocean]

Too much effort required=time to complain

[gusty ridge]

your 8dmg smgs won't do anything to them

[storm ocean]

Then use other weapons, more suitable to the task

Simple as

[gusty ridge]

...

[storm ocean]

Or changing eq is too much effort still?

[gusty ridge]

it's amazing how every single discussion about snipers I have seen ends with "just pick sniper or dmr and shot them"

[storm ocean]

Well, unfortunately, unless you have RPG or are inside the tank, you kind of doesn't have any other options to fight someone at 500m +

[gusty ridge]

ye an that is the entire point of the discussion 😭

[cold vault]

It be a fact that if you camp on spawn as a sniper you have no balls

[storm ocean]

It's good that recon has its own class identity, and no class encroaches on that, but on the other hand, it's super hard to couner them unless you are recon

[cold vault]

I just came here to say this bye bye

[storm ocean]

What about super small maps, like Salhan or District, when not camping in spanw puts you on too short of a range?

[gusty ridge]

giving them space where they can shoot and not be flanked means you can only fight them as a sniper which is very bad game design

[cold vault]

Same deal
Also who plays recon on district of all maps

[gusty ridge]

the snipers that actually have at least a bit of skill and don't need to be hundreds of meters away from the fight

[cold vault]

So none

[gusty ridge]

[sly mauve]

yes

[outer canopy]

Buff vehicles

In general, and nerf al RPGs, give them a reload animation every time you switch to the RPG and an animation when you change from the RPG to another weapon

Buff Frag RPG

And pls, 3 tandems are too much, 6 heat is a vehicle nightmare considering you can one shot many of them, including helicopters (Littlebird and Hermit)

Or make the class the, APC/Tank buster, 1 rocket per RPG but you can equip 2

[hoary pelican]

I'd propose making an edge along the zones that works as "Safe zone" still, but snipers may shoot from here, and not in the "normal" spawn zone

So they are forced out to the edge somewhat

I say they, but I play sniper myself lol

[sick elk]

You can't shoot while in spawn protection anyway

[storm ocean]

Genuinely the best solution to camping tanks proposed here

But hey, people need every reason to call for nerfs, so they will complain till vehicles get nerfed instead of solving the problem at its core

[cold vault]

3 tandems are fine
6 heat is not fine

Also only vehicles that heat can 1 tap reliably are quads, jetskis and small helis

And yeah buff frag

[outer canopy]

Im thinking in a complete RPGs and Vehicle Overhaul, because these 2 aspects of the game are connected in some way

[outer canopy]

Take the Squad RPG Frag, is a infantry nightmare, but you can only have 2 in their specific role and 3 in certain factions, but the point is, Frag RPG needs to be the perfect anti infantry weapon, Heat an Tandem complement each other because you have 1 of each RPG, 1 Scoped and one with the iron sight, it's complicated but simply at the same time

At least the Devs can take the good aspects of Squad Vehicle combat, this is one of the games BBR takes inspiration

[cold vault]

Nah id rather have this https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1183084663770710087

[storm ocean]

3 tandems would be fine, if they delt less alpha, and you couldn't run C4 and AV nades at the same time. So rn that's totally not fine.
6 heat is a joke too

[outer canopy]

Vehicles need a really good buff in their damage resistances, and RPGs needs a complete rebalance, it will be good equip 2 types of RPGs in the same lodaut but with their ammo reserve heavily reduced, you can equip Frag with Heat, Heat for Vehicles and Frag for infantry

[brave sparrow]

I think they should just redo the maps because most maps are poorly designed with how the spawn is implemented. You don't want people to sit in the spawn and shoot safely then redesign the maps 😄

[dawn dagger]

I like a idea that engie only needs a RPG, but have 2 kind of bullets : tandem one like now, to counter tanks, fell off like crazy, etc, but modified three things, these are lower dmg, not useful to infantry, and take 2 soldiers for conduct the process. I hope these make tanks has chance to survive, engie want attack tanks must go in group and have a bond between them when decide attack a big thing. No need to creat second part when supporting fire tandem, the soldier behind just have a animation to stick with shooter, and tandem can be shot. Time for calling a friend, time for stick animation, shooter needs to stay silent, 3 things that long or short, can be modifed for balance.
Another bullet for RPGs is HEAT or fragmention, does not impotant. I see for counter infantry, just need a kink of bullet, have a bit high velocity and not fell off like tandem, have radius and support for destroying building, like HEAT now. This thing can be conduct by personal, yes, and needs to modified likes low damage to vehicles, espescially tanks, but yeah, still hurt, not to much like tandem. At last, I think engie only take upto 1 tandem and 3 Heat, and make a choice if they want to 2 tandem 0 heat, or 0 tandem 4 heat.

[balmy crescent]

finally someone made a post about this, I made one a about the same thing a while ago and it got shot down instantly so pls let this be added to the game

[dapper reef]

Snipers are a curse to this game, anything that removes a bit of their safety I'm all for, I can't think of any other game that allows you to willfully play your entire game from inside the safe zone

[storm ocean]

Or, you can keep the safe zone, so it can serve it purpose and be, you know, safe zone that protects agains camping spawns, and desing the maps without aboundance of super long line of sight at every step, and without extreme verticality changes (lookig at you Valley and Sandy) and with more PoI kind of cover, not empty spaces in between points.

[dapper reef]

It doesn't really protect against spawn camping tho does it? You just get camped at the edge like currently

[storm ocean]

But you can't get LoS for anything deeper than that. You can't set yourself up and RPG vehicles right as they exist spawn protection.
Sure, you get camped at the edge, but there always IS cover to fight back at the edge. Not the perfect solution, and there should be no spawn camping at all, but for now it works well enough imo

[dapper reef]

The trade-off between protecting against spawn-camping and allowing snipers/tanks impunity isn't worth it IMO. Spawn-camping happens infrequently enough that it's a non-issue, whereas every game has at least a whole squads worth of people per side sitting in the safe zone with an M200.

I'm not saying get rid of the safe zone, I'm saying maybe you shouldn't be able to use it as a protective blanket.

[storm ocean]

It far from impunity, especially against vehicles.

FFS, you can kill them

And even if you particularly can't, you still can spawn lock those motherfuckerz

Calling it 'impunity' is straight up lie

[storm ocean]

Well, spawn zone is a protective balnket by design. It, you know, protects the spawn.

[cold vault]

Allowing snipers and tanks to do nothing but farm kills in the safe zone is not good at all

[storm ocean]

Well, having tanks being not able to viably do anything else than camping is even worse

And allowing infantry to camp enemy spawn zone with RPG and spawn locks enemy vehicles inside it, contributing to them camping there for no real cost at all is possibly even worse things

That's more complex thing that "vehicles camp in spawn, vehicles bad'

[cold vault]

Its one thing if most of the enemy team is right at the edges of the safe zone, not 2km away from you while you sit comfortably doing fuck all
Im all for better vehicles but this aint it

[storm ocean]

That's the point many people that do not play armour miss. Sitting in spawn zone is doing literally fuck all.
Good luck getting kills unless enemies throw themselves at you

Recons in this situation are bigger problem, but countering recons is a cake walk

[sick edge]

As I understand it, the whole essence of the dispute lies solely in one map. Sandy . I can’t remember any more maps on which you can stand on a tank in the safe zone

[cold vault]

Realistically its a map issue

Just like

[sick edge]

Say hello to Vilaskis

[cold vault]

Dont make the edge of the safe zone look over the entire map easily

At least like move it back a bit or lower it

[sick edge]

Salhan is also possible, there is an APC there and you can stand almost on the spawn side on the Russian side

[storm ocean]

Literally only that.

[dapper reef]

thats not the issue we're discussing (though I do agree with you)

Unless the edge of the safe zone is a literal wall, you're always going to have someone (multiple) camping in it because they want to play a point-and-click adventure game at the expense of everyone else

[storm ocean]

You can't do much about that without harming evryoje else gameplay too much to justify that

[dapper reef]

map design is also un-great in this aspect, but it's a very hard line to strike. It's very easy to do the opposite and allow the enemy a vantage point for free kills inside the safe zone

some maps already have this and it's a problem

thats legitimate spawn-camping

[sick edge]

Not such free kills. Exactly the same snipers sit on the other side and shoot at them.

[dapper reef]

Yea but, that's bad

[sick edge]

It's just a different way to enjoy the game

[dapper reef]

no, it's un-interesting non-dynamic gameplay

it's objectively bad for the overall game state, whether you personally enjoy it or not

[sick edge]

Imagine someone likes it, just imagine

[dapper reef]

They can enjoy it, that's ok

but personal enjoyment =/= quality gameplay

[sick edge]

So what's the problem if the main thing they do is shoot each other?

[dapper reef]

They ruin everyone elses fun, with no counterplay other than grabbing a sniper rifle and doing the exact same back.

it's that rock-paper-scissors triangle of gameplay, if there's no way to counter something other than doing the exact same back, it's inherently bad

[sick edge]

Maybe you just need to move? Most often, it’s not the sweatiest guys who sit like this and it’s difficult for them to hit a moving target.

[dapper reef]

so the counterplay is avoiding a large swathe of the map and ensure you're moving constantly?

[cold vault]

That is assuming you can get closer to them and that they are not in the safe zone

[dapper reef]

Which they are

[sick edge]

Imagine this is not the only moment against which there is no counterplay in the game. And this is not the worst of them

[dapper reef]

But that doesn't de-legitimise the point

[sick edge]

My point is simply that it's not a problem, not that it's legitimate.

[dapper reef]

and honestly, I can only think of a very few others, none of which are as widely used

One being the almost infinite-health Blackhawk and the other sitting an LAV in a body of water at distance

the counterplay to each is to either rub blackhawks together, get your own LAV, or just avoid a large swathe of the map

[gusty ridge]

i love it when the only counterplay is to avoid certain parts of the map

[storm ocean]

Counter to lav in water is anything that is a counter to LAV, (exept C4 which is good because you can't crutch that out)

I fucking love destroy LAV's stupid enough to do that

[sick edge]

с4 drones

LAV simply cannot do anything with it, even leave if it is standing on the water

No counterplay against no counterplay

[storm ocean]

Or a tank, that's straight up aim practice

[cold vault]

Yall do realise that explosions are kinda fucked on water right

[sick edge]

With it, if you try hard enough, you can fly into the safe zone

[storm ocean]

That's why you need to aim properly?

Splash from explosives against vehicles is also a crutch that you use?

[cold vault]

Ah yes its tottaly fair that my rocket immediatelly detonates upon touching water

[storm ocean]

Is landing direct hits a lost art among BBR players

[storm ocean]

Well, it's resonable?
It just detonates when it hits something

It would detonate on LAV if it hit it

[cold vault]

Yeah except majority of the lav is under the water

[sick edge]

In my opinion, there’s no point in arguing, water works stupidly and that’s a fact

[storm ocean]

That's a fair response, I will give you that
But it's requires just a little more skill to hit still very big hit box. LAV isn't small.
Having elevation advantage helps

[storm ocean]

Elaborate on the 'stupidly' part

[sick edge]

Projectiles simply break on the water like walls

[storm ocean]

Well, kind of realistic

HEAT rocket should detonate on contact with water
And simulating bullets under water is kind of pointles, when water is rare, you can't dive under it so you are always above its surface, and would increase computing power of client/server

[sick edge]

Ok, you're right

[dapper reef]

The RPG's travel slow enough that they can just move back or forward slightly, don't even think about Tandem. C4 drone is a legit counter you're right there

going off-tangent slightly, that was just to illustrate a point

[sick edge]

c4 drones are not just legitimate counterplay, but counterplay without counterplay

[storm ocean]

So they deserve a nerf then

Got it

[sick edge]

If in a tank you can still say that you have the opportunity to shoot it down, then the LAV does not have the opportunity

[dapper reef]

I mean, drones aren't overly hard to shoot down

[cold vault]

Yeah they are pretty easy

[sick edge]

Good luck shooting down a drone with LAV guys

[dapper reef]

They counter vehicles, yes, but thats way out of scope of this topic

[cold vault]

Well what can you do when thats one of the most viable ways to counter them

[sick edge]

Limit the number of c4 that can be stuck on the drone so that it does not become a one-shot

[dapper reef]

thats a whole nother discussion

[storm ocean]

If the player using drone is stupid, it's super easy. If he has some level of intelectual capability, you can't

[sick edge]

The level of intellectual abilities is greater than a chair

[dapper reef]

this just brings back to the point that the spawn-hider is the only uncountable playstyle

And should therefore be changed

[sick edge]

You can also fly up to them with a drone. This is not an excuse for their style of play, it's just a fact.

[dapper reef]

That's different, if a sniper can't shoot down an incoming drone thats just a skill issue

[storm ocean]

Yet seemingly rare

[sick edge]

Yes it's rare and it's a dumb design, but it can be done

[open siren]

Drone + c4 is effective but if the solution to the problem is to use one niche solution which can easily be countered by a basic level of awareness.. yeah not really a good thing

It’s basically saying “this isn’t a problem for the game because this one thing can counter it, sometimes.”

I did consider this as an idea when we were discussing it in bob’s. Maybe it could work? (+ allow shooting in enemy safe zone with said death timer. The game doesn’t allow you to damage people in the actual safezone and gives you a notification about it already)

Obviously frontline safezones aren’t really affected by this issue (opting for damage over time instead of can’t shoot + death time) but in regards to how frontline specifically handles it: just slapping that into the other modes would most likely not resolve the issue without creating another.

“But what about base grief” (you know the BF4 term for it but it’s filtered here) you may ask? Simple. Vehicles should just not take damage until an enemy enters it and leaves the spawn point of their ride with it.