The sniper changes are actually pushing people to snipe from further away.

[gray jetty]

Yes, actual sniper nerfs

Hopefully

[woeful lantern]

you want more nerf?

[blissful gazelle]

Man cannot comprehend people getting more than 100 kills

[gray jetty]

Or reduced amount per team

Trail and glint arent nerfs

You all play the same as before

[sudden sparrow]

guy says he gets 47 kills in 5 minutes, 'can't comprehend 100 kills'. Reading comprehension in here is 0. im out

[gray jetty]

No one is going to follow you on glint on your base

Its a pointless nerf

Or trail in that matter

[atomic pumice]

I see the chat is still courteous and civilized

[crisp matrix]

stealth is compleatly gone vs anyone within a functional team. you might get 1 kill but your position is now exposed to anyone within 200 meters. so the only use of snipers now is at distances where only other snipers can counter you. i sure as hell cant survive 20 people shooting for me with 12 sec 3d spotting from drones that persists through walls and any position within 200 meter of an enemy. No reasons remains in the game to choose the pickaxe to make sneaky sniper holes near a active combat zone because everyone knows exactly where you are after the first shot regardless if i hit or miss anyone.

[woeful lantern]

it have been tested on custom server, it doesn't work, either you remove sniper and there is camper everywhere impossible to remove, or you limit them and they have less need to kill eachother so they focus more on the non-snipers and it does the opposite as wanted

[gray jetty]

Im Fine getting killed by snipers but not 30 of them shooting at me

[woeful lantern]

no-sniper/sniper limit were the first community server to open and the first to close, it doesn't work

[idle bay]

Exactly my point, people in this thread are only commenting on how it doesn't affect snipers long range because duh the main point is that it has killed flanking and sniping sub 150m cause the smoke trail alerts everyone in the vicinity look where I am and you get melted not everyone who snipes like to sit a mile away from the objs doing nothing

[woeful lantern]

dev said you have to use the weapon in the intended range so i guess every sniper will now have to do 1000m+ shot at every game

[idle bay]

And I think it's dumb to force players into boxes, close range sniping took skill but now you get punished for even shooting the weapon

[woeful lantern]

i totaly agree with you, i was ironic

[idle bay]

Ik I just hate that dumb point oki made just kills a class and makes it boring af

[woeful lantern]

and then just said "skill issue" when people complained

[idle bay]

Yup

[atomic pumice]

Not the way to do PR

[woeful lantern]

pull request?

[crisp matrix]

i for one like to use all my guns with silencer to kill from unexpected angles and places. That is something the smoke trails currently instantly destroy. As such the drms are the only long range option remaining for me and since every single class in the game is better at using drms then the recon class... i will just end up stop playing as the recon class in the end. Glints i can prevent by placement and timing, sounds can be reduced by silencer. Nothing prevent everyoner with functional eyes to follow the smoke trail

[idle bay]

Exactly 100%, make trails where added to baby unaware players who are in the open with no cover and get there head popped

[woeful lantern]

and that's supposed to be one of the roles of the sniper... punish people who play like headless chicken in the open

[idle bay]

Glint and sound at least requires them to rub 2 brain cells together and be like oh there is a sniper over there, but trail is just a free GPS to anyone in the area that last way to long

[woeful lantern]

exactly

[indigo basin]

every full auto gun has a lazer trail pointing where they are XD

now snipers got one to

[idle bay]

Tracers aren't that visible and snipers have tracers on their bullets too we are talking about smoke trails here

[spiral pilot]

They are auto guns spewing more lead and DPS in every way than any sniper rifle can.

[indigo basin]

snipers can one hit headshot that means its technically the fastest killing gun

[indigo basin]

then you are blind

the bright yellow lines in the air are definitely easy to see

[mellow harness]

Still think making trails only visible within ~5-10 m of yourself would fix a lot of these issues

So you only see it if a sniper whiffs a shot near you

[idle bay]

Ok let's think for a sec, let's use that beautiful brain we are all are born with, tracers require you to be aware youre being shot at and are only visible when bullets are being fired, a smoke trail stays up for 3 seconds for anyone in the vicinity to see even after you fired your shot now tell me which players will notice more a skiny yellow line only visible when a player is actively firing their weapon or giant and noticeable smoke trail that's visible even after you fired to anyone around pointing to where you were

[woeful lantern]

maybe being less agressive will help the debate?

[spiral pilot]

yet also the most skill dependant, and those two thing mate, have shitty correlation.

[spiral pilot]

Technicalities dont make for good experiences.

[idle bay]

I'm just tired of these brain dead takes for example saying that tracers are the same as smoke trails

[spiral pilot]

Agreed, this is the case. Why do we need smoke on top of that then?

[warm cape]

That trail is fucked
There's no reason to pick snipers below 600m distance

[idle bay]

Exactly killed or least ruined and is just a pain in the ass to close range snipe and it makes snipers just sit away on hills more a mile from objs

[spiral pilot]

Well put. Again the player base hes more than enough tools to deal with every threat they find. But they just associate that a player who took time to position and flank to kill them "An unfair way to kill me" since he couldn't put his gun sight in you and shoot back. They just want to solve all problems with their gun, intead of their full kit.

[spiral pilot]

Agreed.

[spiral pilot]

Single video to be inmmediatly disregarded as a single data point. Understand already you do NOT prepresent the hundreds of thousands playing this game.

[surreal thistle]

if i keep posting videos youll have your data wont you

[spiral pilot]

sure

[surreal thistle]

this is like the 7th instance or so

[spiral pilot]

I would prefer spreadsheet though.

7th is so small. regasrdless. You would have to provide me with about 10k samples to make a dent on incidence

[surreal thistle]

uh huh

[spiral pilot]

and then, the BIAS of your single knowledge in the game would affect the final result

more effective would be to have 1k players all sending data.

than you doing it ... as many times as you like.

[idle bay]

Youre actively shooting at players that are solo or with only 1 more person close and you're away from main action ofc people aren't gonna notice you

[blissful gazelle]

Absolutely not. A large data set doesnt inherently mean its unbiased.

[spiral pilot]

Indeed.

[surreal thistle]

Youve been here a bit, didn't they say they have stats on deaths and such based on weapon and location per map?

[spiral pilot]

in the end, any amount of examples provided by even 100 players here all shouting is irrelevant.

[spiral pilot]

I hope they do. Idl ike a crack at that data.

[surreal thistle]

Theres also an ally sniper behind me. Did you not see the dozen or so guys pull up?

[blissful gazelle]

I have no clue, I doubt Oki is using stats that detailed to make these changes.

[spiral pilot]

pretty sure we can come with very interesting findings if the data point have a timestamp to know if pre or post nerfs

[surreal thistle]

I could have sworn it was in one the early dev casts. There's heatmaps too

[spiral pilot]

This should be the case. Other games use this data.

[idle bay]

Did you also not notice the moment you shot at a group larger than 2 everyone turned around and started shooting at where you were or am I watching the wrong video

[mellow harness]

This isnt a case where you can really spreadsheet it out tho?

not without arbitrarily picking certain specs

[indigo basin]

tbh the bright yellow line then grey trail blinds in with a lot of the sky boxes and rocks easier and its only really noticeable when the person shoots right past your head while the bright yellow lines stand out on more maps and are easier to see when they aren't being shot at you

[surreal thistle]

2 people shot at me after a few rounds???
Again, theres more people behind me

[mellow harness]

or finding some kind of like "log" of all kill types and whatnot

[surreal thistle]

and im out in the open

[mellow harness]

which idk if that exists

[spiral pilot]

hahaha, you are wrong. Lets have the data of each kill, giving me only distance, loadout, and map. Then correlate to heatmaps. Simple descriptive statistics will quickly throw a light on who is being the whiny player. Maybe I am, maybe you are. Lets find out.

[mellow harness]

[idle bay]

And don't you think if maybe there weren't smoke trails you could've stayed there a little longer and gotten more picks because players were unaware of where you were, but you couldn't because there was a bunch of sniper trails pointing to where you were

[spiral pilot]

Lemme explain. If we get data from kills with distance and loadout, we can figure out quickly which weapon is overperforming simply by checking % of deaths. If snipers have a significatively larger % of kills, then they defo are overperforming.

[mellow harness]

No, I understand, but where are you going to find that kinda data from

[torpid tinsel]

^

[spiral pilot]

You have to factr in ranges to. It gets fuzzy up close where SMG-ARs-LMG kinda all compete, but lets say that the doming weapon type that kills you at abouve 200m should be DMRs, and above 500m sniper bolt actions.

[spiral pilot]

Thats is the devs issue. They can balance on data and thoughts, or feelings and textwalls and polls. Or both. Their pick.

[surreal thistle]

no really, snipers have always been loud and the tracers are still a thing

[spiral pilot]

im again, saying they should be more objective tham their personal playing experience, and the experience shared in social media and polls.

[torpid tinsel]

don’t tell people to find hard/unobtainable data then

[idle bay]

But its almost like they're harder to notice and require awareness to spot 😱

[torpid tinsel]

if it’s not possible to obtain why bother telling us to get it

[spiral pilot]

It isnt nor hard, nor unobtainable. We could start by making a simple score board check. This has its own issues (you can change classes mid game) but if we have score, kills and class % from endgame screens can give a potential starting point.

[ionic rune]

.

[spiral pilot]

I did address the devs in the OP

and im pretty sure getting a stream of logs with these stats from every server would not be that hard to implement, if they wanted to.

[mellow harness]

then make a suggestion asking for kill logs in a folder somewhere ig

[ionic rune]

We just need to see the KD, KPM and SPM stats of all players within 200m of an objective, split by weapon type/class.

As I mentioned in the linked message above...

But devs wont share this, coz then we realize that snipers were not OP, and this change also didn't do anything except harm the small % of useful sniper players playing at ranges 0-200m....

Edit: at the ranges where snipers are hurt by this change, you can get much higher stats (and way higher KPM) by using other guns/classes. So again, IDK why this change had to be implemented...pls share some #s

Longer rambling about this same topic: 👉 #1184004829325053994 message

[idle bay]

Exactly why punish good snipers but promote the long range camping playstyle people hate recons for

[surreal thistle]

not at all??

[spiral pilot]

Im saying be transparent. Own your failures as well as you share your succesess. Game balance is hit and miss. lol.

[spiral pilot]

Exactly. Title of the OP man. Why on earth am i gonna use bolt actions below 500m? Just to be denied, supressed or killed after 3-5 shots.

[spiral pilot]

@thick kernel this is the way. Sorry for daring to ping you, though.

[indigo basin]

"noooooo only my game play matters and now i can sit in a bush and farm 20 kills from 75m away so the game is ruined"

[idle bay]

youre telling me you will notice one shot sound, now you can due to audio changes but before you couldnt, from a specific gun whos tracer is faster than youre average gun and requires you to pay attention in active warzone where tons of bullets are flying and saying that smoke trails arent notable but linger in the air for everyone to see where you are even if they werent paying attention to you

the issue we are trying to state at least me personally, is that audio, glint, and tracers require players to actually think and be aware of were you are to shoot at you or hunt you down. SMOKE TRAILS ON THE OTHER HAND require the player simply exist and be somewhat near a person you shot to be aware of where exactly you were without having to do anything

[surreal thistle]

But that's the same as tracers tho? What's the difference?

[spiral pilot]

A fair point, and the reason why I advocate for removal of bullet trails.

[spiral pilot]

Stop playing dumb. The difference is massive.

[idle bay]

tracers dont linger in the air and are only shown when a gun is being fired

[surreal thistle]

Then tell me the difference? Both give you an idea of where the sniper is. I find snipers way more often from glint.

[unique thistle]

when you get one shot, the bullet trails are even useless, man I cant believe how stupid okis reasoning is, it is insane

[surreal thistle]

Thats both as a sniper and a regular ooga booga obj rusher

[spiral pilot]

its a whole 3 second arrow straight to your face. c'mon lad. Move your head sideways if you have to.

[ionic rune]

holy shit dude, I watched your videos and cringed at the aim

and now this comment...

I hope devs disacknowledge every phrase regarding game balance from you...

[spiral pilot]

Then let's try and build something reasonable.

[unique thistle]

especially when I factor how often a sniper actually caused "issue" for me in the game, I never get mad or something cause I got sniped cause thats. my. fault., 180° 1 hit kills from a vector however are driving me mad

[surreal thistle]

I'm very bad when it comes to aim yeah lmfao. But that's a big disadvantage as a sniper right? If trails are so bad why aren't I dying like you guys say? I'm trying to find the disconnect here.

[unique thistle]

thats a hard topic to tackle

[idle bay]

we are specifically talking about sub 200m or closer range sniping where glint isnt the main give away to your location but usually its sound or enemy team communication but now they dont need that they can follow doras map to your location if you shoot at a group larger than 2

[spiral pilot]

If you die to snipers it is your fault, indeed.

[spiral pilot]

Right i forgor if he is so close and using medium scope he doesnt have glint

still, single data point.

[unique thistle]

even if we "build" a great solution for all of this, I have my doubts that the devs would care given the previous answers from oki ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[spiral pilot]

dismissable in the extreme. His opinion and personal experience are only valid for him.

[ionic rune]

So yeah we just need the stats: #1184004829325053994 message

[surreal thistle]

Yeah, ive been doing that. I haven't been killed form someone from looking at my trail. Only time I die is when I'm too pushed or from snipers.

[spiral pilot]

Bias, 100%

and as such, im pretty sure it is also 100% bullshit. Or can you read the mind of every player shooting you up?

[idle bay]

the vid you showed earlier had 3 people shooting at you because they noticed all the fucking smoke trails so you had to move even though they probably wouldnt have known you were there if it werent for smoke trails

[spiral pilot]

This is the way.

[surreal thistle]

Dude behind me is super loud. He shot way more than me before I was even noticed. That's why I don't think it's the trail's fault.

Moving isn't a bad thing either. I was going to move anyway since I was running out of targets.

[spiral pilot]

"I don't think" isn't a useful statement.

There is then, more than one factor and your sample is useless.

now you have to go get me another video.

[surreal thistle]

We can only infer what the enemy saw since we can't ask them directly. Their satement is also a "think"

[spiral pilot]

Inference is dangerous. And unsuable for our discussion. We cannot assume, we cannot infer.

[unique thistle]

another reason why the "trail gives you an idea where the sniper is" is invalid, is because when you get hit and NOT killed directly, you have the red thingy showing you from where you have been hit!

[ionic rune]

we dont need your videos, or analysis of what enemy saw

we just need the stats mentioned earlier #1184004829325053994 message

[idle bay]

if you have good positioning and enemy players are unaware of youre existence you shouldnt be punished for shooting your weapon into a group large than 2 is my point

[spiral pilot]

We need data. Reliable, reproducible, and transparent data.

[open wharf]

you get rewarded for dying too, game just tells you where they are for free 😄

good balance

[surreal thistle]

So adding the trail doesn't do anything then?

[open wharf]

It tells everyone who didn't get hit where you are across the entire map

are you purposely ignoring his point... or...?

[idle bay]

its redundant and punishes good positioning and flanking/ shooting into larger groups bro

[surreal thistle]

My point is that there are tools in the game that do that already. Trails aren't massively more impactful than those.

[surreal thistle]

But tracers do the same thing. Sound too

[idle bay]

THEY DONT CAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE AWARE AND TRACERS DONT LINGER IN THE AIIIRRRRR

[open wharf]

Bullet trail = 1 projectile you have to analyze for a split second. Trail = a 3 second smoke line straight to where you are.

Cmon

[mellow harness]

Since we want stats, l i'll make a thread. Will link when ready.

[unique thistle]

well, not if you get insta killed, you still have no idea where they are except the death cam

which to be honest, no one looks at if not really curious...

[ionic rune]

If what your saying would be true (it is not), then devs should add the exact same smoke trails to EVERY weapon in the game

[idle bay]

LETS ADD SMOKE TRAILS TO EVERY WEAPONN 🔥

[spiral pilot]

This is a very good take. And I agree.

[surreal thistle]

The thing is you can't see exactly where the sniper is most of the time. If you are behind cover like you should, people won't automatically know exactly where you are. By the time you swing your mouse at the trail, the origin is gone

[unique thistle]

if you get hit and dont die from 1 shot, you have a direction

[spiral pilot]

And then you have glint, and then it depends on engagement distance.

100m? Shoot back

250m, probably can shoot back

250-500m if you have DMR, counter snipe or Smoke

[surreal thistle]

the trail itself is really only visible for 1.5 seconds

[spiral pilot]

above 500m- smoke and hide

[open wharf]

I mean, I'll just paste what I posted in another thread:

1. Land a shot - enemy knows where you are based on the damage indicator.
2. Miss a shot - enemy knows where you are because now the snipers are Quake railguns
3. Simply aim - enemy knows where you are now because you glint
4. Kill someone - They get to know where you are as a reward for dying
5. Stand somewhere - Get spotted by someone ping everything they can

With these current changes there's basically no sneak or stealth at all unless you play so hilariously far away that you're a pixel on the map.

[mellow harness]

#1184221168572571658 message

And @spiral pilot

[unique thistle]

this is what you get as an idea when you get shot but not killed, the bullet trail justification for "you are invisible" falls apart as soon as you non-one-hit kill someone

[unique thistle]

agree

[unique thistle]

what does this tell me?

[ionic rune]

nothing 💀

[surreal thistle]

How many times did I shoot and no one did anything

[solemn marlin]

At the end of the day, who are these Trails helping?
Are these helping other snipers? Yes, they can locate you faster.

Are these helping support players? Not really? Depending on the range then yes, but support players are just going try running away or get cover most of the time. Rare cases if the sniper's close enough they will shoot back

Are these helping medic players? Not really also, for the same reasoning they lack the equipment to fight back.

Are these helping engineer players? Same as the the rest of the classes. No.

Are these helping Assault players? Situationally, yes. Depending on their weapon choice they can fight back. If they're not than it follows the same as anyone whos not on recon.

When you're the sniper what is this doing? Essentially making it blatantly obvious that you're shooting at players. Where if you're priority is shooting players closer to you, than you're very open to being killed any long range opponent who just so happens to be looking in the direction of the trails.

What is this change going to do overall for the class?

Makes good positioning less rewarding
Makes sniper more risky to stay in one position, therefore making sniper mobility a stat looked at more
Makes the skill gap between good/bad snipers much further apart. Cause now good snipers can take more of an advantage from the trails than the other snipers who a) Miss more b) Dont know good map positioning
Gives the feeling that you have to sit further back than normal to not get punished as easy

Personally for me, I like the change, I consider myself a good sniper, this just makes killing other snipers (the only real threat) much easier. Though this change just makes sniper a harder class to get into for anyone, because its much more punishing.

If Oki's idea is to make snipers less annoying he's doing the right thing to prevent it from being so casual friendly. If his idea was to nerf already good sniper players, then this is just a buff.

[surreal thistle]

even the guy i hit didnt do anything

[unique thistle]

#1184004829325053994 message

it would interest me how much people think the same, it somewhat feels like this "snipers are OP" has been blown out of proportion

[surreal thistle]

Snipers are not OP. It's just a class people don't like because its frustrating to get one tapped. I don't really mind snipers, but it helps people be less angry about them if they feel like they can fight back a bit easier while imo having little impact.

[surreal thistle]

Also, ""you are invisible" falls apart as soon as you non-one-hit kill someone" is what that clip is replying to

[spiral pilot]

Completely on point man. With so many tools and ways to find sneaky players, why turn bolt action into Quake railguns/Halo snipers?

[unique thistle]

Snipers are not OP.
thats what oki implied with:

It was being abused heavily not gonna lie, you have a deadly weapon, almost no disadvantage, fast bullets, high damage, alot of ammo, easy graphics to spot, no bullet drop, big hitboxes.
What is the disadvantage?
Spoiler Alert:
None
Where is the skill level with laser beam snipers? None
Missing shot? no problem, you can try again, because the guy has no clue

imo

[ionic rune]

Its also frustrating to have your whole squad wiped by an adderall assault player with suppressed UMP from behind, having no idea where you and all your friends died from in 0.4s.

So maybe those smoke trails for every gun then? 🔥 Then we can all stop complaining :)

[surreal thistle]

Smoke wouldn't make a difference lmfao

[solemn marlin]

Should be a bit easier to kill those players now that footsteps sounds are louder for enemies.

[open wharf]

I can agree with that for long-range, but the issue is that close/medium range aggressive snipers are playing a completely different game than the ones playing far back. Lumping them both together with this change is horrifically bad.

There are so many weaknesses to agressive medium/close range sniping its not even funny.

[spiral pilot]

You got data of engagement ranges of all rifles? Mind lettig me on it? cause otherwise, your "Rare cases where you can get shot back" is hearsay. Help medics? Yes, they avoid sniper angles easier. Help all classes? Yes, they literally know your general direction, and can actively hunt easier, flank easier, and avoid fire easier. You dont seem to grasp the whole gist, that if they know where you are, they can shoot back. Simple as that. All your reasoning here falls apart on that simple fact.

[solemn marlin]

No it really does not, because I dont miss shots.

[spiral pilot]

then you are a single case, a data point outside the mean that is either ignored or excluded from consensus to achieve balance.

[blissful gazelle]

Thats not what hearsay is...

[unique thistle]

i love your absolute fixiation on actual data, disregarding every statement which is anectotal evidence

[solemn marlin]

If you're sniping closer than 150m lets say, you already in range of so many guns anyway. I dont see why you would have an issue when you're bringing a weapon outside its comfort zone to begin with.

[spiral pilot]

True, but it conveys the meaning of my words harder

[unique thistle]

I think amount of kills by distance would also be a nice datapoint for sniper rifles, maybe grouped by used scope?

[solemn marlin]

thats not how you debate.

[gray jetty]

Data deez boltz in yo mouth

[spiral pilot]

fair, im abusing it abit. But semantics aint going to make your single anectodal evidence any better.

[solemn marlin]

You're just randomly throwing words out with the improper meaning to try and convey things harshly out of emotions.

[ionic rune]

hes literally asking for hard data 💀

[torpid tinsel]

frustrating yes
An issue no

[spiral pilot]

This is how it should be, man.

[ionic rune]

same as getting killed by a recon player at a smart spot 50-200m away
frustrating yes
an issue no

[unique thistle]

emotion? nah, that guy just demands actual facts instead of anectodal evidence

[ember dew]

sniper killing peeps at a distance? 😲

[gray jetty]

Anectodal evidence of people with 500+ hours in the game

[pastel belfry]

i feel like feedback polls should be posted to the main menu so the community at large can have a say instead of just the people in this server

[gray jetty]

Gotta bê bad

[unique thistle]

n=1
50000 hours pass
n=1, you get that, right?

[spiral pilot]

wow, calm down there Jordan Peterson, no. Hearsay is for me, what your opinion is to you. He said that he thought that or i say that he thinks that... have the same value as your opinion. Im being hard to demote anecdotes because i have to drive the point that anecdotal evidence is extremly useless and waste of our discussion.

[ember dew]

could be a suggestion

[pastel belfry]

i should prob make a thread for that yeah

[gray jetty]

Dont care ratio +

[ember dew]

L bozo

[spiral pilot]

still anecdotal, or can you claim to remeber eveyr game in those 500 hours?

[unique thistle]

then you are an idiot, congrats on that self diagnosis

[solemn marlin]

If someone is going to debate properly without emotion, they're going to be using proper words and analogies. Not using terms to try and project, belittle or whatever else have you.

[torpid tinsel]

hear·say
/ˈhirˌsā/
noun
information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.
"according to hearsay, Bob had managed to break his arm"
Similar:
rumor
gossip
tittle-tattle
tattle
idle chatter
idle talk
mere talk
report
stories
tales
tidbits
bavardage
on dit
Kaffeeklatsch
labrish
shu-shu
buzz
the grapevine
goss
scuttlebutt
tea
furphy
skinder
bruit
Opposite:
confirmed facts
LAW
the report of another person's words by a witness, which is usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.

[gray jetty]

Data dn is useless

[unique thistle]

Kaffeeklatsch, german my beloved

[hexed cipher]

im not going to pretend that the sniper rifle isnt a one-shot weapon, but there are many factors to take into account to simply call it that or punish players for using it for its basic function. for example, simply calling it one shot weapon is not saying much in a game with low ttk and there are many other gadgets in the game that can one shot and are relatively safe to use. i think overall, recon should at least get some more perks that we can use to an equally rewarding benefit.

• double the exp for spotting.
• multiply headshot damage so that headshots guarantee one shot regardless of helmets.
• give recon a stealth perk and make them immune to 3d spotting, because i feel like 3d spotting was somewhat of an indirect nerf for recon.

[spiral pilot]

If y ou dont want one shot weapons in your game, then dont add them to the game. Like shotguns.

[ember dew]

this is the dumbest suggestion thread i have seen ngl, snipers are meant for long distance shooting, any changes that improved that is simply a step in the right direction. It takes skill to hit those long distance shots.

[vocal jolt]

xD

[torpid tinsel]

op ain’t the brightest too

[gray jetty]

Not on m200

[spiral pilot]

Would you look at that, I am using it correctly then. Hearsay it stays.

[ember dew]

like complaining medic heals too much

[ionic rune]

"LOOK AT ALL THESE USELESS SNIPERS ON THE HILL WHY ARENT THEY HELPING OUR TEAM?!?!?"

[ember dew]

its funny block game those guys need to take this less seriously

[gray jetty]

Snipers are useless thats an agreement

[ionic rune]

this change sure makes them useless

[vocal jolt]

trail and 3d spotting are so stupid it's unbeliavable

[spiral pilot]

Derailing the discussion, irrelevant.

[gray jetty]

They always have been

[ember dew]

snipers counteract enemy snipers, thats mostly what they do since trying to shoot an engy with 0 armor on is impossible

[ionic rune]

skill issue i guess

[spiral pilot]

Irrelevant, we have addressed team contribution versus personal enjoyment, and neither factor into this discussion

[unique thistle]

"LOOK AT ALL THESE USELESS SNIPERS ON THE HILL WHY ARENT THEY HELPING OUR TEAM?!?!?"
if the game wouldnt be so attracking to children (which evidently have no idea about military shit, not even close), the tactics involved in a round are little to none, squad com, SL chat for example, sadly very unused compared to games like HLL or Squad

[gray jetty]

Not really, snipers only dictate If you lose hard or little hard based on the amount in your team

[solemn marlin]

By no means can you claim as such then. You're not in power here. Regardless of this boring back and fourth on a word. I've experienced the change first hand and its concurrent with what I said.

[ionic rune]

so then why did smoke trails have to be added to snipers?

[gray jetty]

Not sure, they are very much useless

[spiral pilot]

As such, you are merely a dot in the plot.

[ionic rune]

ok so then devs can also revert this change 👍

[solemn marlin]

And as such, you also are exactly that.

[gray jetty]

Snipers arent op, they are annoying and bad when there are too many on both team

[spiral pilot]

Indeed. That is why im asking for data, so we can assess objetively. My opinion is bullet trail sucks, but I could be wrong.

[gray jetty]

Agreed, I Just Hope for an adjustment in the numbers per team

They are Fine when they are about 10% of a team

[ionic rune]

I would be very happy with a RS2 style class system, which could limit #s of each class per team

[idle bay]

I can agree with this there are servers who limit it to one per squad and I think that's fine

[vocal jolt]

those poor supports Sadge

[spiral pilot]

Im a not stating i am right, just that balance should come from way more than player feedback and opinions, polls, and personal dev experience, specially in a MP game. Data has to drive some of these changes.

All of your arguments saying "but this doesnt happen to me" Are dots in the plot, that alone mean nothing. even if you were a hundred, or a thousand.

[torpid tinsel]

ah so feedback is completely irrelevant to you

good to know

[spiral pilot]

Nope. read again. and read back. Feedback matters, but it is a double edged sword.

[torpid tinsel]

anything that isn’t cold hard facts won’t be considered here got it 👍

[ionic rune]

feedback should be supported by data

instead we get game changes because "it felt bad lmao" - Random casual player with 6 hours playtime

[spiral pilot]

That should be the base of balance, yeah. Sprinkle on top feedback, and minor adjustments can be the GOAT.

[pastel belfry]

believe it or not, the collective opinions of the game's players are also data, so if enough people agree on something that needs to be fixed then that is sufficient evidence to look into it

[vocal jolt]

I dont get it how mitigating all the effort of finding good spot and well hidden angle is any good for the gameplay

[gray jetty]

Because you are 1000 meters away and have no way to be punished unless its by another sniper

[spiral pilot]

yeah, It is totally true. But making that the mayor component of the thought process for balacing choices can be very skewed to a vocal minority that doesnt represent the majority of the playerbase. Both need to be taken into account.

[unique thistle]

which is highly subjective to intepretation and you set 100 % trust into their opinion (oh wonder, people also lie and misrepresent in favor of their opinion), that is not nice collection of data

[vocal jolt]

most of my kills are >1000m anyway so I still dont get it

[gray jetty]

[spiral pilot]

Indeed, a very bad one, but it should not be disregarded anyways. Specially if you are not transparent wit hthe thought process.

for making changes.

[pastel belfry]

i did not say to trust it 100%, just that the voices of the community are not to be ignored even if it may be a vocal minority (plus polling usually happens in this case anyway)

[unique thistle]

statement: "i get sniped constantly"
person 1 means: I get sniped often, I notice those deaths but die otherwise, too
person 2 means: every death I face is by sniper

[blissful gazelle]

"it feels bad" is really important feedback in a video game though.

it shouldnt just be ignored

[ionic rune]

yeah it should be replied with

unless the reason can be supported by data

unless like 70% of the playerbase says that it feels bad

[pastel belfry]

i made a thread in #1184228557954756711 to more accurately collect data so vocal minorities don't sway the game in the wrong direction

[unique thistle]

I would gladly smash the persons kneecaps when they reply with "skill issue" to someone which provides a valid, nicely argued point

[mellow grove]

There's basically no reason to play recon anymore. Bullet trails are super obvious whther you're near or far and so unless you can guarantee kills on every shot (which is also bad) then there's no reason to use one. DMRs are already better on assault. And the drone forces you into a particular mode of gameplay.

[spiral pilot]

Indeed. but you extrapolate to your hard data, to see if it maybe is true, or just a bunch of whiny players. the whiner could be me, i am not excluded from that possibility.

[vocal jolt]

Anyone who have played videogames realises that trails are stupid

[spiral pilot]

they have their merit in certain games.

Halo and quake for example.

And maybe if we had 1 shot body shot snipers.

[ionic rune]

Trails in halo are fine coz:
-small player count
-long TTK and sniper rifle is a special power weapon

same in quake?

[torpid tinsel]

Not gonna solve any issues im gonna say that

[spiral pilot]

true, but it was just a mere afterthought far removed from our core discussion.

[vocal jolt]

Make changes to address the issue that isn't actually an issue and make it even worse

[vale hazel]

Quake is a very far reach from BBR tbf, and their "sniper" fucking slaps and lowkey OP

[mellow grove]

There is literally no reason to play recon, assault does everything you can do except use the drone.

[ionic rune]

yeah thats the exact point, trails fit in those games, but not in battlebit

[mellow harness]

no bolt rifle too

[spiral pilot]

Worst of the fact is, devs claiming to listen to the community havent made the simple poll of "How do you feel about Bullet trails on sniper rifles, combined with all the other tools already in the game?"

I would consider that very, very bad data. But hell, it would be a starting point.

[mellow grove]

My own favorite playstyle was basically kneecapped. I run bolt almost exclusively at very close range--no reason to do it now.

[unique thistle]

to be fair, they are implementing things from #1170727258537865367 fairly often, but I get the point

[mellow grove]

Not when you have a giant "I'M HERE!" sign

[vocal jolt]

^

[ionic rune]

#1184004829325053994 message 👈

[vocal jolt]

Add drop, tune velo, lower body dmg whatever but trail, wth

Whole fun part was to find that nice small angle from aggressive location

[spiral pilot]

I would agree on bigger scope sway, less steady shot stamina, lower bullet speed, more drop even.

Bullet trails are where i draw the line though.

[unique thistle]

I would not, scope sway is barely enough to properly hit a single person which is moving a bit

more drop even.
yes, but only if that is caused by bullet speed reduction, bullet drop should be identical across weapons, gravity is constant and like I said, bullet speed would "increase" bullet drop

[spiral pilot]

hoho, this is easy levels compared to Huunt:Showdown, but I get it. Anyways, before implementation, data is needed.

[spiral pilot]

Indeed. specific gravity per weapon is stupid. The only changed value should be bullet speed.

[unique thistle]

m200: 1400 m/s --> 850 m/s, reasonable change, new value is realistic, current one is above mach 4, amraams dont even fly that fast lol

[spiral pilot]

Actually,. that should be the most reasonable change to the game.

Reduced bullet speed across the board. This should be accompanied by functional mil*dottted scopes, like we have for the RPGs

[ember dew]

just make snipers hitscan, problem solved 🤣

[unique thistle]

hitscan?

[spiral pilot]

The opposite exact of what we are saying

[ember dew]

its satire

[spiral pilot]

I know

[mellow grove]

Nerf the M200 bullet speed and hard limit recons per team. Remove bullet trails. Boom, done.

[ember dew]

no travel speed or bullet drop

[spiral pilot]

That would be very reasonable.

[ember dew]

instant connection

[unique thistle]

not just the M200, all the snipers bullet velocities are just unreal

[idle bay]

A REASONABLE TAKE, i actaully wouldnt mind this

[spiral pilot]

Limit each class to 4 per squad, or 3 per squad, reduce bullet speed to reasonable levels, add funcitonal scopes, remove bullet trail.

[unique thistle]

while we are at it: improve the binos lol

[spiral pilot]

Yep, bullet speed is well above where it should be.

[mellow grove]

Like the M200 legitimately goes faster than some modern tank shells.

[spiral pilot]

Much needed. They should have rangefinders and 0 glint.

[unique thistle]

1400 m/s makes a 1400 meter shot be nearly 1 second (bullet arches, thats extra distance)
~ 850 m/s makes a 1400 meter shot ~1.7 seconds, which makes that harder cause you gotta see further into the future

[spiral pilot]

The rangefinder attachment imo is abit OP. I should have to do more guesswork for my engagement distance

event if it is just popping in my binos, checking my distance, and then switching back to my rifle.

[unique thistle]

range finder could stay as is, just dont show in scope cause you cant see it from there

[spiral pilot]

I should have the ability to mark "landmarks" that indicate me certain distances, and thus quickly zero

in my head, not in game btw.

[mellow grove]

Knowing the general trend of balance changes though, they'll nerf bullet velocity and make the trails even bigger.

[unique thistle]

WhY iS nOnE pLaYiNg SnIpEr AnYmOrE

if they nerf snipers more, I am legit going to quit ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[ionic rune]

and in a few months: WhY iS nOnE pLaYiNg tHe gAmE AnYmOrE

[mellow grove]

The balance has been very questionable at times.

[spiral pilot]

Yeah. I would not like that. I think BBR has its role to fill in the gamespace. I hope it doesnt die ever. Seeing games like this triumph make the whole industry better.

[mellow grove]

Which is a shame, when it's going well it's fun.

[crisp matrix]

ohh look a conquest clip that have no different gameplay at all over domination, frontline or invasion /Sarcasm

[spiral pilot]

This is a good metric that can be used.

[mellow grove]

This nerf also really punishes SSG69 users.

Since they're going to be much closer.

[spiral pilot]

Which is the start rifle for the class and your only options for the first few hours of gameplay, driving many a new player off the class unless they do DMRs until a new rifle is unlocked.

[mellow harness]

Hate to say but several DMRs are comprable in the velocity department

[spiral pilot]

They should be toned down to to reasonable bullet velocities.

The IRL M200 has 914m/s bullet velocity. Maybe we should start there instead of taking tropes from Halo and Quake into a semir realistic mil sim

[unique thistle]

whats the m200 irl?

[spiral pilot]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CheyTac_Intervention

[mellow harness]

I def think at least the m200 needs to have speed toned down, but it's worth noting as well that it doesn't need to be 1:1, and that movement ingame is fairly quick in a lot of cases

I think 1000-1200 should probably be the upper limit

[spiral pilot]

It is nearly 50% faster in game than IRL lol.

[mellow grove]

It's almost as fast as actual IRL MBT shells

[mellow harness]

That's what i'm sayinf, the irl vs ingame doesn't matter compared to how it feels ingame really

And I will agree, it is WAY too fast

I think dropping it from 1400 to 1200 would be a good starting point

[unique thistle]

thats too little of a change imo

[mellow harness]

good chance more than that would still be fair

[mellow harness]

15% decrease

[unique thistle]

i'd just readjust every sniper velocity to their IRL equivalent

[spiral pilot]

True that IRL isnt the best metric to say it will be balanced in game, but general reduction to bullet velocities in game, to all long range guns, would impact what the devs wanted to target first better than bullet trails, as it actually affects longer ranges.

[spiral pilot]

I would, to start there, and the nadjust up until we find the sweetspot

[mellow harness]

I really don't feel most are that bad tbh. there's a few that are very overtuned to the point where they feel like hitscan, but most are decently hard to use beyond a few hundred meters

[spiral pilot]

A 15% to 20% decrease to all DMR and SNiper rifle bullet speeds would be a great start. Remove bullet trails and then we adjust.

I think this would be a waaay better change. It add significantly more skill to sniping, but not making it easier for everyone else to just outright shoot you.

[mellow harness]

Issue is, that puts a lot into AR ranges, and then you end up with issues tied to ttk vs ability to attack at range (for DMRs at least)

I don't remember the specific velocities but ik some are fairly close to ar speeds

[spiral pilot]

It can always be adjusted upwards to a middleground vs ARs VS bolt actions

[mellow harness]

true true

[unique thistle]

arent snipers always faster than ARs?

[spiral pilot]

This is true, but then, you still have all your DMR benefits.

[unique thistle]

oh dmrs

nvm

[mellow grove]

IRL? All comes down to barrel length.

Unless you meant the game

[unique thistle]

disregard, I had something mixed up

[spiral pilot]

Going back to how can we make sniping harder without pointing a 3 second arrow to the snipers face,

I think nerfing in general all DMR and bolt action rifle bullet speeds, adding functional mill dotted scopes, removing bullet trails, and making binoculars useful would be a proper way to start fixing this issues.

[mellow grove]

Or even just nerfing the bullet speed and setting a hard limit on recons per team. There's a reason some servers have them set to like 1 per squad.

[unique thistle]

limit on recons per team would be something I dislike, but I would vote for it

it makes sense

127 player teams: 16 snipers
64 player teams: 8 snipers
32 player teams: 6 sniper or so

[mellow harness]

Limiting most classes to 3 I wouldnt be against

[unique thistle]

maybe 32, 16, 10

values would never be something everyone is fine with

[mellow harness]

Its when you end up with 3-4 of something per team I start cringing mostly... especially when they're all medics running around self healing

[pastel belfry]

i don't think limiting the amount of a certain class on a team would fix anything, because snipers are great for defending but awful for attacking because they are never in front and i think that's enough of a reason not to always pick recon

[unique thistle]

stats could also help: at each round end: how many <squad class> per team

[pastel belfry]

i feel like the trails should just not last so long, 3 seconds is just crazy

[mellow harness]

Ngl i dont think anyone would see that and change things... maybe in the leaderboard would be nice though

0.5 - 1 second is plenty

[indigo basin]

and you all are assuming that everyone on the map is looking for smoke trail and aren't busy with other things

[pastel belfry]

you'd be surprised how quickly you can fire in a general direction adjacent to the enemy and immediately get shot at

[indigo basin]

that happen with all guns honestly

[indigo basin]

i can agree with this tho

[pastel belfry]

i said this before, more people are using DMRs than ever right now because it's so difficult to be sneaky with a sniper

[indigo basin]

tbh more because the trails can be annoying when shooting

[pastel belfry]

yeah i don't think anyone likes how there's a big ol arrow pointing to your location for 3 seconds when you fire

[hazy gull]

Makes no sense at all. Smgs are not used for further ranges cause of less bullet velocity translating to bullets simply not reaching their target or doing abysmal damage. But i can assure you that a bolt action will still kill you even if you are only 50m away. Besides that bolt action rifles actually get used in middle range firefights with mid range scopes in the real world.

[indigo basin]

the only DMR i have a big problem with is the m110 because it stronk

[spiral pilot]

It is gatekeeping indeed, because it is unreasonable to use inference to draw a conclusion that is truthful.

[mellow harness]

use in real world == effective translation to game

Inferred info is valid, just unreliable by nature. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered

[spiral pilot]

All players are always scanning for threats. If they are not, then complaining about being killed by an unspotted enemy is a bad faith argument of "no fair, he killed me"

[pastel belfry]

not to mention you can literally put iron sights and canted red dots on your m200, if it was a weapon just for long range this wouldn't be the case lmao
you can't even put a 6x on most BRs

[mellow harness]

thank you for the compliment

[spiral pilot]

Welp, being more optimistic here but this is true.

gotta know your paradoxes lol

[mellow harness]

I take one logic class in college and now It's just hiding in the walls of my mind

a blessing and a curse

[mellow harness]

But yeah I do have to agree that both this...

[mellow harness]

and this are both worth considering to a degree

[unique thistle]

realisticly, you would have to see the trail form to know where it comes from, if you just see there is a trail, you dont know the direction it formed

[mellow harness]

highly dependent on circumstance. Those who are paying attention and not mid fight are gonna see the smoke trail and light up snipers

Thise who are mid fight are gonna be a lot more likely to not notice or not care

[unique thistle]

if you see the trail form: you got a vector
if you only see the trail existing: you got a line with no indication of direction

[mellow harness]

Yeah, exactly. If you have the time to follow the trail, easy sniper spot

If not, you know there's a sniper and a general direction, and thats it

If even that general direction

[unique thistle]

well, general direction either ahead or behind you

[mellow harness]

Yeahh

And me personally, I don't mind "general direction"

[indigo basin]

ya they are scanning for threats but would the sniper 100m away be more of a threat then a smg user 20m away if you ask me I'd be more mindful of the smg user and there is the thing of ya you may see a snipers trail leading to a building 50m away but you don't see them in the window anymore so are you going to stop and just stare at that one window

[mellow harness]

im hoping reducing trail time makes the "general direction" easier to take away without leading right to the sniper

[coarse tree]

The basic sniper rifle was too powerful, as was this append, and a slight nerf was terrible because it didn't reduce the number of snipers who were far away, holed up in their bases and so on.

[mellow harness]

This is what I meant earlier, snipers mid-firefight are still strong if positioned decently and with covering fire on them

[coarse tree]

Smoke has been added to the trajectory, but this has settled down to the point where you can tell the snipers are shooting at each other in great numbers.

[queen gust]

Bullet trail only good for countersniping, outside of that, it only works to make infantry take cover

[mellow harness]

And between that and the ability for recons to spot could be crazy strong... but weak af outside of 1v1s and firefights

[spiral pilot]

If you put yourself in that position, the odds are already against you. Why did you put yourself in a position where a huge line of sight can spot you and at the same time, you have to worry about a very close threat. The smart player knows to position and engage as few threats as possible at any given time for maximum success.

[indigo basin]

why shouldn't it be the same for the sniper 🤔

with the trail they have to properly position

[spiral pilot]

Outright not true. Do you have access to data were it points out every sniper killed was killed by other snipers?

[indigo basin]

and think about when and how they shoot

[indigo basin]

I mean I'd like to see a SMG take on a sniper at 100m

[queen gust]

If you're already engaging enemy infantry and see a bullet trail hit your homie you can't do shit against that, that sniper is probably 100+ meters away

[torpid tinsel]

do you have access to data that points to the fact medium to close range sniper support is harder to perform?

[coarse tusk]

I know for a fact certain rifles need a velocity change

[indigo basin]

also if your attacking points you have to at some point leave cover and start fighting people in close range while also being mindful of snipers but are you going to engage the snipers 100m out or the other people 30m out first

if it were me I'd run and weave to avoid the snipers and shoot the people 30m away

and that's if they haven't already one shot me before I've even noticed them

and that trail isn't going to be useful at that point

[spiral pilot]

You just fell into the biggest trap. You do have options. You can build cover, and hide, or smoke up. But you wont smoke, cause you have to use that slot on your frag, right?

[spiral pilot]

Nope, I'm requesting them to make a better decision.

[queen gust]

👍

[torpid tinsel]

im leaving this thread its giving me irreversible brain damage

goodbye

and good luck

[spiral pilot]

They already spent time doing that to gain their vantage point over you. Why must they spend twice as much, and relocate a lot more than necessary? Relocating is always a must as recon before this.

[indigo basin]

because of retaliation it happens to real life snipers in closer range sniping engagements

except irl they would instead be met by MG fire, artillery, or a sniper

instead of just MG or a counter sniper

[spiral pilot]

That is not the issue. The issue is how easy and or hard this is to do. And the fact is, as it is right now, it is stupid easy, and heavily discourages close range sniping with bolt actions. Retaliation versus close range sniping has existed always in BBR. This is just dumbing down the awareness required to dodge bullets to the floor.

[crisp matrix]

a real sniper in a urban combat situation could very well eat a tank round for their trouble as well..... its a bit silly to talk about since we have vr equipped drones that could just fire a regular tank round into the position of the sniper in real life

[indigo basin]

it discourages close range camping snipers
from personal experience if you stay moving its exactly the same as its always been

[crisp matrix]

good luck doing that on the smaller dom maps

[indigo basin]

if I'm on a smaller dom map and using a sniper I'm feeling extra ballsy that day

on those maps I'm normally rocking a BR or DMR

[spiral pilot]

There is no such thing as a close range camping sniper. Not without data to back up your claim. And if they exist, are they an issue warranting the destruction of the playstyle? Or just because a few people feel like so and voice it up they get their way? How about rather than that we find out if any of both extremes is true.

[indigo basin]

doesn't mean i haven't tested on thoes maps with snipers and it feels extremely similar to befor the update if I'm playing within 50m of objectives with a medium scope

[spiral pilot]

Not. not even close. No matter how you put it, it simply isnt how it was because it is not how it was.

[spiral pilot]

Still, single person anecdote holds little value. We need actual data.

[indigo basin]

bru from my personal experience I've been staying around the same k/d if not better so yes in my personal experience its the exact same

[indigo basin]

same goes for yours then you are saying it makes it worse most likely from your own game play

[spiral pilot]

Maybe i need to phrase this a little bit more strongly: Your personal experience means nothing. literally nothing. It is nullified as soon as a single other person appears and claims the opposite.

[crisp matrix]

and if players want to challenge themselves and get satisfaction from pulling it off we should always nerf their playstyle due to some made up examples on how all should play the class?

[spiral pilot]

The same goes for Oki, and any and all of us. Dots in the plot.

of course, though, Oki is in power to do anything he wants.

[spiral pilot]

Give me data or give me death I guess.

[coarse tree]

The real problem is that most of them are scouts or medics. So you see ballistic smoke flying all over the place, but it's comedic and funny!

[surreal thistle]

My guy this post is your experience. By your own words nothing you or anyone else says means anything. I get that changes should be made based on data, but player sentiment is important.

At any rate, videos are more concrete than words. None of the anti-trails have posted any proof of what they say.

[crisp matrix]

giakoma you do realise that the devs might not have the logging potential that you are after? just becausse devs create a game in an engine like unity does not mean they have the possabilty to log and track every single thing that happens in the engine

[spiral pilot]

You are like, 500 comments behind on that. And if you want to factor player sentiment, how about the cold hard fact the game struggles to keep above 10k player anymore. If we draw a audience normalized chart of player base, the game is losing players quickly. Doing way better than other stuff, i hope.

[surreal thistle]

Like at least let us see in game what y'all are complaining about.

[spiral pilot]

True, but it is possible. Up to them if they give a damn though. At this point its entirely up to them to tweak their game as they see fit.

[indigo basin]

how can the ddevs have logs saying smoke trail are 100% the cause of more deaths

because there has been more people playing sniper in my lobbies

there was a free week recently so more new players probably have the game affecting stats

[spiral pilot]

Im sharing how i would approach it and how i fell with their changes.

[surreal thistle]

Those numbers were inflated based on hype. Those weren't a real expectation. The devs have stated this in one of their devcasts. They never intended to have that kind of playerbase.

[indigo basin]

there is no way to get a complete positive on what yhe smoke trails affect

[crisp matrix]

i think you have to reread what i wrote there....

[spiral pilot]

Irrelevant, again. The expection factors not into how to balance a game. It does factor the fact that with their low manpower and size, bias and balacing are very hard.

[indigo basin]

I'm using what you said to go with my point

[spiral pilot]

We lost that chance already. Unles they remove it, and start collecting data.

Are snipers killing 50% of the players capping a point, when they are between 100 to 500m?

Then yeah, snipers are defo dominating, go nerf em.

[indigo basin]

there is no way to tell 100% if trails are actually greatly increasing death of close rang snipers or no

[crisp matrix]

that is a very odd way to phrase it.

[indigo basin]

maybe slightly but no way to be 100% about it

[spiral pilot]

Even at peak population the 17k votes on the most voted post in devs asking channel is less than 20% of the players.

at 8219 players, the 62 people upvoting this conversation represent 0.8% of the current game pop.

[surreal thistle]

It does affect balancing because they might have gotten players they never intended to get.

[spiral pilot]

Oki might as well just ignore all this.

[spiral pilot]

Sigh. irrelevant. It is their game and their vision. But they did say they wanted to listen to their community to make the game better. Well, now they get to listen to it. All of it. Big or small. And it is only their jugement to gauge the community that we may influence this. Once it is this big, if you balance things solely on polls, vocal players and your own dev personal experience, you might end up anywhere. Who knows? Although, games that use stats to balance remain stupidly popular. So, again, Devs choice. Im just calling them out on perhaps a better way to decide for changes.

[surreal thistle]

Can't do that. You don't have data

[copper skiff]

snipers already had downsides to being used in short range. bolt action time, bullet tracers, ADS time, aim punch. all you're doing with adding bullet trails is making sniper the gun you can't effectively flank with. why? an SMG player can get behind people and get 20+ kills, a sniper gets in a good position and after one shot is revealed to everyone?

I tried doing the 200+m quest on WINE PARADISE last night and even trying my absolute hardest, it was difficult to find natural spots people were more than 200m away from. naturally defending or attacking points even on this VERY open and long range map are ~100-150m and it used to be possible to snipe from these distances, but you were still vulnerable because you lost every fight to an AR/SMG, which was fine - you could take precautions. position properly, use a silencer, etc. now there is no counterplay. you either sit at the edge of the map and duel other snipers doing the same, or you're dying constantly because you're giving your EXACT location away with every shot.

[spiral pilot]

Of other games with success and balancing based on a data driven approach? Are you mad? Every battlefield, Every online FPS, and MOBA that is big enough does it. lets not forget battle royales.

they just dont publish their decisions, because usually, they have sales tactics to exploit. Like releasing overpowered shit to nerf later after it sells with a boom on bad stats.

Here, Devs have nothing to win, or lose, but players.

[gray jetty]

I'm playing a game currently on bbc frontline and the enemy team has 45~ snipers

No one told those people they got glint and trail?

[mystic forum]

Don't fool yourself about big corps doing proper data driven analysis

They might be doin them, but those rarely get implemented only by the data

[coarse tusk]

Last night it was half the server

[spiral pilot]

AS i said, sales come first.

[gray jetty]

damn sniper is so bad its just 30-40% of the lobbies

[spiral pilot]

Give me data or just GTFO.

[surreal thistle]

Let me give you an example. League of Legends does balancing based on a crazy crazy crazy amount of stats AND player sentiment. It's not entirely based on the numbers. They've arguably got the best balance team in the industry and they have always worked with the community.
The point is they balance for their playerbase, as should Oki and crew. A big thing with Battlebit is they have a long history of sniper problems that the community has said is a problem. How many people do you see in chat complaining about snipers compared to other games? It's a lot more

[gray jetty]

join the fucking server moron

[spiral pilot]

https://www.reddit.com/r/BattleBitRemastered/comments/18gldjj/sniper_bullet_trails/ get out of your local bubble and find out.

[surreal thistle]

I will say the skill issue comments from Oki are definitely his personal bias lmao

[gray jetty]

maybe actually play the game before yapping all day long

haiodshdashiashdido aHAHAHAHI

yea these people are so reliable on meta reading its crazy

[surreal thistle]

I'm on reddit too lmao you don't think I've heard this before?

[gray jetty]

I wonder what a public poll on sniper is going to look like it

[surreal thistle]

Yeah, it's gunna be "nerf them harder"
Most people hate snipers but this game is really bad with sniper hate

[spiral pilot]

Hence data driven IMO, but hey, people know what is best for them right? Like they didnt vote for DJT?

[lofty hamlet]

make it so if snipers are in friendly blue line territory they cant scope in and can only hipfire with it so there is less campers in spawn that are unkillable without sniping back

[gray jetty]

damn getting shot from 700 meters every 5 s gotta suck why would they not like it

[surreal thistle]

He still lost the popular vote twice lmao fuck that guy

[spiral pilot]

Because that is a factual lie mate. And if they are, they are simply refusing to learn how to adapt to the threats in th game.

[gray jetty]

try to enjoy playing the other classes when there is 30-40 people shooting at you every moment

see how you like it

thats why community suggestions should fuck off

[copper skiff]

I got 140 kills/50 deaths and topped the leaderboard last night playing medic. went to do my sniping quest and was struggling to even maintain a positive KD and over 30 kills a game. it's been overnerfed to hell and back.

[gray jetty]

why are 30-40 players on each team playing it if its so bad

[copper skiff]

there's a fucking weekly quest to get 150 kills at 200m+ you dingus

[gray jetty]

every week there is a sniper quest dingus

[spiral pilot]

I play medic too and I dont get sniped cause i aint out in the open waiting to get shot. And if do, I aint angry, cause I know i was exposed.

[surreal thistle]

Imo the sit in one place afk play style was nerfed, not the more mobile play style.

[spiral pilot]

Also this, lol

[coarse tusk]

snipers need to be limited to 2 per squad atleast

[copper skiff]

the real question is why are you positioning in such a way that you're in LOS of 30-40 people at once

[surreal thistle]

But you don't really play like that in games like this anyway

[spiral pilot]

Not at all. You dont even understand what is wrong at all.

[surreal thistle]

The problem is people see you right?

[gray jetty]

maybe because most maps got no cover and are wide open spaces

[spiral pilot]

The problem is announcing your position with every shot. At long range, IDAF, glare was there anyways broadcasting. At closer ranges, it is simply suicide.

[surreal thistle]

Aka people see you

[gray jetty]

I'll try play inside only one building for the rest of the game because recons

sure

[copper skiff]

1. this isn't true
2. use build menu
3. use smokes

[gray jetty]

thats very healthy for the game

[spiral pilot]

Hyperbolic statement. Its BS. you dont have to. Smokes and cover exist.

[spiral pilot]

It is. You have tools, use them you fool. Not all solutions in this game involve gunning it down.

[gray jetty]

Just play inside cover all game because the enemy team has 40 snipers

why didnt I think of that

damn

[spiral pilot]

And win the game. Ez.

those 40 snipers wont win the game for the enemy team.

[copper skiff]

you're just terrible at the game if you're constantly dying to snipers. smokes, cover, or even simply not moving in a straight fucking line counter snipers so hard.

[spiral pilot]

and im pretty sure, you will flank them eventually, rack in like 6 - 10 kills and die.

[copper skiff]

get hit with a body shot and you can literally just jump and bandage while moving your mouse around and never die

[spiral pilot]

And the maps are prety well designed. You can easily just, move from a different angle.

[copper skiff]

oh? i thought it was unplayable because 30-40 people are constantly killing you? looks like you were lying

[coarse tusk]

New Basra is pretty good not like 30-50 opfor snipers just dnt deadlock the map

[spiral pilot]

Kill counts doesnt mean you are good mate.

[surreal thistle]

I'm dead

[copper skiff]

you get that hiding in a building? cause that's what you said you had to do because snipers were so strong

[blissful gazelle]

Getting a single 261 game absolutely means you are good. There are no bad players that could ever acheive that even in the longest invasion games.

[surreal thistle]

I disagree with you on a few things, but at least you're sensible

[copper skiff]

lol probably a tank spawn camper given how he talks

[blissful gazelle]

I can vouch that he is not.

[coarse tusk]

He doesn't

[spiral pilot]

hes prowess is irrelevant anyhow. Anecdotal records arent what we need to make sensible balancing choices.

[maiden mantle]

Totaly agree with this. Not only that, population of snipers also increased, making it even more obnoxious. Half of your team is 400m from the nearest point

[blissful gazelle]

He posted it as a response to you saying he was bad, not as an example of a game where snipers were being oppressive.

[surreal thistle]

Your analysis of his performance is irrelevant since you have no data

[copper skiff]

this is not how a skilled player handles snipers.

my movement alone simply makes snipers irrelevant unless they're getting me while I'm prone bandaging from an off angle.

[gray jetty]

I feel like after this discussion my brain lost its wrinkles and now its smooth as butter

[copper skiff]

have to cross an open area? you throw a fucking smoke. not bitch about how you have to camp a building because there's "no other choice"

[blissful gazelle]

Try flanking on basra with 15 snipers on the islands and let me know how it works out for you.

Or on the bunker hill

[copper skiff]

"let me cherry pick the worst map and use that to balance the entire game around" ok bud

[blissful gazelle]

A lot of maps are like this.

[copper skiff]

played for hours last night and no one ever voted basra because it's so dogshit

[blissful gazelle]

Idk what @gray jetty is saying but i think the sniping issue is a map issue more than anything.

[coarse tusk]

Dnt forget the light house that can shoot into spawn

[blissful gazelle]

I meant old basra btw, I havent played the new one

[gray jetty]

My thoughts on recons is not they are op, they are way too numerous atm

Game is not enjoyable as now

[spiral pilot]

I did not assess his performance? I said a single stat (kill count) can't make you a good player. Different things mate.

[coarse tusk]

snipers can deadlock it bad like really bad

[gray jetty]

New basra is a huge open space

[surreal thistle]

"Kill counts doesnt mean you are good mate."

[spiral pilot]

If he gets 260 kills in a game, yet can't pop a smoke to save his bacon, well, yeah. He can improve I guess.

[coarse tusk]

the sniper issue isn't really skill, it's a mix of both map choices an number per squad/team
If it was a issue then it would be way more clear

[spiral pilot]

Indeed. I stand by that assessment. A single screenshot of a single game with a high kill count isn't convincing me that he is good.

[surreal thistle]

Irrelevant, not enough data

[spiral pilot]

Exactly. You are learning, finally.

[blissful gazelle]

Whats your highest kill game?

[spiral pilot]

About 60.

[surreal thistle]

Nah man it doesn't matter. He hasn't played 10k games. Too small of a sample size to know for sure if his highest kill game is actually his highest

[spiral pilot]

I do label my personal experience irrelevant.

Open, data driven changes are the goal here.

[blissful gazelle]

I dont think that youre in any position to decide what makes someone a goodd player or not.

[spiral pilot]

Doesn't matter. it was never something that mattered in this discussion. He is a single dot in the plot.

as i am.

[surreal thistle]

This has big anime villain monologue vibes

[spiral pilot]

I live for drama, bro. 😛

[dry sphinx]

killing agressive sniping and making people more likely to camp if they want to use snipers

[surreal thistle]

Untrue, I've posted multiple clips of the opposite. Aggressive sniping is not dead

[plain shard]

frontlining with a sniper isn't dead id it was ever even alive agressive flanking with a sniper is.

[spiral pilot]

Sigh, for Nth time, your personal BIAS towards the statement does not affect how others perceive it.

[dry sphinx]

maybe it was just the map i tryed agressive sniping again on but i still think its a little bit stupid that you are noticed 10x easier than anyone using an ar

[spiral pilot]

the "But I can do it" argument is not a real argument to being with, and a samples size of 3 videos that people even disagreed with your own description just makes it worse.

[surreal thistle]

No one can refute that I didn't die. What people said was that I had to move, which isn't true. I've shot at people under 100m, even 50m and I was fine.

[surreal thistle]

I'll try to flank when I get home

[idle bay]

bros videos showed people shooting back at the moment they noticed the trails and claim its was because of sound and tracers even though they where clueless

[surreal thistle]

Did you not see the amount of times my team and I fired before that? Hello?

You're ignoring everything I'm saying

[spiral pilot]

The point is , your video does not do anything to prove your point.

[plain shard]

Your clips were also not showing any sort of strategic awareness or actual productive impact on the game. You were just running around near absolutely clueless players that somehow weren't able to kill you inbetween bolt cycles. You didn't take a position and cause problems for the enemy team you just ran around shooting things with no discernable goal.

[idle bay]

wow yeah they noticed the volley of all the fucking white lines and turned around

[surreal thistle]

So you're saying we got off multiple shots before they noticed? How is that instant?

[spiral pilot]

So, 3 witnesses seeing the video, and all disagree wit hthe video poster. Whos telling the turth I wonder.

[unique thistle]

@spiral pilot still going strong, i call this determination

[spiral pilot]

Or, more likely, representing facts?

[idle bay]

you killed like maybe 4 people when it couldve been more if it werent for gps location being revealed

[surreal thistle]

I was on, near, or pushing, objs in each clip

[spiral pilot]

We cant tell sooooo.....

[surreal thistle]

Nah I could have gotten more if I could aim lmao

[spiral pilot]

yeah, maybe you are lying.

[surreal thistle]

You don't know the maps?

[spiral pilot]

Man, don't get me started lol. I just had too much time today for this hahaha.

[spiral pilot]

Not all of them that well I am afraid.

[surreal thistle]

That's fair

[plain shard]

being near an objective isn't really relevant unless you have the firepower to stop or create a push. A sniper doesn't have that irrespective of skill. When I say strategic awareness I am talking about seeing a small group going for a flank and engaging them on your terms or finding an angle on players trying to take cover from the main line. Actively engaging multiple players at a time. Distracting from or making it impossible to complete what they wanted to do. This is done by shooting in such a way that they can't work out where you are as as a sniper you will get overrun otherwise. Especially if you are in front of your main line rather than behind it. If you are pushing with the main line you might enjoy sniping and find it fun but you're not making use of the tools you have. You could and would be doing better with some armour and an ar. My point has never been that you are incapable of sniping. That is obviously not true. The guns still shoot. The point has always been that you can no longer provide any value as a sniper that isn't done better with other classes. Sniping is immensely popular because it is fun. The vast majority of the snipers in a game do awfully. They are having fun for sure but they are essentially not a part of the game. They typically are in the bottom third of the scoreboard with a few kills and little t ono objective score. To be at the top of a games scoreboard as a sniper requires a different approach. An approach that the trails have fundamentally killed. Now you have to choose whether to play sniper or play for the win as with the trails your ability to effect a match as an individual player is all but gone.
This change has killed my enjoyment of my most played class. It has killed my playstyle and it has killed my value as a sniper.

[sly smelt]

This is not an issue of the changes (which didn't really touch any of that) but of the class as a whole. Sniper is meant for low amount of kills and potentially high survivability, and no objective play.

Improved enemy spotting is a gimmick that got added recently, but barely anyone uses that, and it doesn't even make things that different from anyone else, as you're still spotting manually (no one would sacrifice the rangefinder for the detector or other accessories, because you can't rangefind with binoculars or any other way).

The way other games balance recons for more team utility would be with effective passive spotting options (e.g. enemy radars, motion sensors), team respawns (placeable radios), laser designation to help teammates with hitting stuff or call fire support, and more.

It's not a problem of the sniper, but of the Recon and not having adequate features. But it's an issue of most of the classes essentially. Assault isn't better than Medic, Medic and Recon have C4 for no reason, Support could focus on traps and extra buildables but that isn't the case, it's just someone with a big gun and an ammo box. Engineer is probably the only one that seems like a properly shaped class, if we ignore the frag rockets being worse than HEAT.

[plain shard]

The issues I am describing are a direct result of bullet trails. They make your position immediately known to even semi competent players. Prior to the changes I felt recon was a skill intensive but still highly valuable class. Sure most snipers weren't useful but that didn't mean the class was without merit. A skilled player can make any class perform the problem is bullet trails kill the niche that made recon valuable.
Also I never run the rangefinder. It's not necessary, muscle memory is sufficient up to 1km and passed that travel time is too long to guarantee hitting anyone that isn't completely stationary.

[sly smelt]

No one pays constant attention to trails in the whole chaos of the game, especially if it's unexpected. You get gooned when you keep firing a lot and they start to notice the constant trails, if the target is still alive or someone close is paying attention.

[lusty knot]

And even then you can just set your angles up so that only a small angle of people can fire back at you

[sly smelt]

Also it's funny that you say you never run the rangefinder to look cool, when it essentially makes sniping trivial as a point and click adventure and doesn't have any downsides (as the other attachments have very little meaning and the rangefinder doesn't give a debuff on snipers)

[lusty knot]

Eventually you'll get pushed depending on the spot but the "snipers need to not have their location known by anyone to be effective" argument is false

Just makes the weapon class harder to play and, as the title of this thread says, pushes more people into the noob trap of sitting way too far back

[plain shard]

It lowers your ads speed. That is a significant downside.

Also if it did make sniping a point and click adventure I would get sniped a lot more. I very very rarely get sniped regardless of which class I'm playing. I simply never stand still.

[sly smelt]

It doesn't. No downsides on snipers, check again.

[meager stream]

does the sv-98 still have it's holo 1x sight?

[pastel belfry]

it's like 0.02 seconds i don't think that will determine life or death in any case

[meager stream]

also the weekly meter based kill count challenge is ruining the game, i'm not scrolling up so i have no idea if that was brought up yet

[plain shard]

its .02 of a stat it doesn't translate directly to ms. The difference is noticeable in game

[pastel belfry]

i've consistently felt like weekly challenges should be unique per player so people can go about their own goals without completely changing the class balance

[lusty knot]

Yeah seriously lol

[meager stream]

yeah the weeklies being accessible to level 0s is really limiting the gameplay styles. We had the get 5 kills in a tank challenge, but it was buggedand said "destroy 5 tanks" so i guess they're out of the rotation?

wait until get 200 kills with SSG69, that shit would be hilarious

[pastel belfry]

i think the goal was to destroy 5 tanks but it said "5 tank kills" which made people assume it involved being in one

[meager stream]

aggro sniping was one of the best way to diversify your gameplay since bolts are pretty underwhelming in BBR, but i dont think it's a viable way to play anymore with these changes

[meager stream]

it said "destroy 5 tanks", but counted getting 5 kills in a tank IIRC

[pastel belfry]

ah well either way it was weird

[meager stream]

there was probably a get 5 kills in a tank weekly in the list it pulled from but they probably had their text descriptions swapped

[plain shard]

fr

[meager stream]

it's gonna be a pain just to get the rest of these sv98 kills to get to 1111

[idle bay]

Why use that awful sniper

[pastel belfry]

for the skin

[meager stream]

because i'm a dumbass and got every F U canted sight in the game, and now i'm getting everything to 1111 for the legacy skins

so if they add anything ill have it unlocked from the get go

[plain shard]

pog

[idle bay]

💀

[indigo basin]

ya

[meager stream]

oh we should probably get that removed then, we wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong impression and playstyle for recon

[pastel belfry]

using bolts with irons is fun

[solemn marlin]

The change is purposely to make sniping harder to learn, more rewarding to master

Missed shots are punished harshly, correct. Thats the whole challenge of sniping. If you're headshotting more often than not, and you have glints with smaller cones, and glints on med range scopes. You're basically handed free kills on a silver platter.

[blissful gazelle]

But right now even hit shots give away your location.

[solemn marlin]

Perfect, more people to aim at

I played one match earlier today and went 89-5 sniping on frontline waki, you shoot people, and all of a sudden 2 more targets pop up for you to shoot at beacause they saw you headshot someone else.

[blissful gazelle]

I'd be interested to see a recording of a good sniping game right now.

Cause it seems to me that all these changes do is kill all but one playstyle for snipers, and the one that isnt killed is the biggest problem.

[solemn marlin]

Ill more than likely be playing tomorrow chum, and ill stream for you

Ive been trolling myself too cause im still using a 4x when long-range scope glints are heavy nerfed.

[pastel belfry]

i just realized one of the best recon mains hasn't made a video since the update 💀

[blissful gazelle]

who

[pastel belfry]

avallac

[blissful gazelle]

avallac has been gone for a while hasnt he

[solemn marlin]

dude has not made a video in months

[pastel belfry]

i wonder how he feels about it

[solemn marlin]

Probably should start uploading my sniper games

im not using any of that building bs

[pastel belfry]

was avallac banned? heard word about that

wonder what he did

[meager python]

[pastel belfry]

oh wait HE was the darth sidius pfp

i swear i saw him here before that's strange

[solid rune]

Make the recon class worse in every way just for the funni

[pastel belfry]

make every sniper semi auto

[solid rune]

With AoE damage

[pastel belfry]

with wall piercing and ignoring armor

[solid rune]

Just give em that gun from Eraser that can see and shoot through walls

[mellow grove]

Or, lower sniper bullet velocity and put a hard limit on snipers on a team, and remove those stupid trails.

[ember dew]

https://tenor.com/view/smg4-smg4skill-issue-skill-issue-smg4mario-smg4skill-gif-26104493

[atomic pumice]

Ah, yes, the pinnacle of arguments

[ember dew]

just dont stand still and dont run in a straight line

easy

[woeful lantern]

it require way less efforts to complain, especially if dev listen to you

[ember dew]

genuinelly its a skill issue if you get shot by a guy 500m away, takes massive skill to land a shot on a moving target

personally im ass with snipers, but i got major respect for em, and with all this inertia talk for the non-milsim bit of the game, will simply make sniping infinetly easier.

[stark wing]

as someone who has sunk hours into sniping your right. moving target shots are hard. even harder if you miss your first shot and they start hopping like meth snorting rabbits

[woeful lantern]

i only play sniper, majority of my kill are static people/camper/people who run straight forward, the same peoples who report me for various stupid reason (i even got racism/discrimination) and spend their day trolling sniper or asking for more nerfs even if they never touched the class

people don't want sniper to be balanced they want to play without any constraint

[spiral pilot]

it becomes clear that if general community consensus on a class is toxic, or plainly hated, commmunity feedback in the issue has to be immediatly disregarded

and then, we need to gather data and find out. If the data validates the louder community, address it.

If it doesn't, then being transparent in your decisions is also necessary

[woeful lantern]

i have 450h in the game, it's 450h of listening to the same stupid shit... "you never leave the spawn", "you contribute nothing to the game", "if they remove your class you're gonna have to actually play the game", etc, etc... from both your team mate and your opponents

[stark wing]

I love getting those comments when I am 200m from the enemy first point helping my squad backcap

[spiral pilot]

its toxic. Then we need data. some times community feedback doesnt have the answer.

And frankly, shooter communites are incredibly toxic.

[ember dew]

never seen an actually good player ever say that, which probably just means only the shit players that try to blame their teammates and game mechanics on thier poor preformance

[stark wing]

but no. let's force recons to be EXACTLY what everyone is pissed about.
obviously flanking recons that provided actual team play is the issue

[woeful lantern]

i literraly got a "you should leave the spawn" in the middle of a gunfight one Echo on Wakistan...

[spiral pilot]

This is hearsay. You cant even tell l how many good players you have ever met.

Your local bubble might not, but you dont know.

[ember dew]

is this a court of law?

bro its funny block game, and my local bubble are twitch streamers

[spiral pilot]

Try being factual, at least. your local bubble aint the world.

[woeful lantern]

good player don't complain, they search what goes wrong in their game on their own actions and if they think they did everything right then and only then they search in the balance of the game

[ember dew]

exactly

[woeful lantern]

bad player got kill, get mad, complain

[ember dew]

nothing wrong with the mechanics of recon as long as they are fitting into their niche and hold equal power to the rest of the classes

[spiral pilot]

mostly because players really dont have a say on balance though.

[spiral pilot]

Of which we have no value or data, other than, "me says it is balanced now /s"

might as well write a bible on that

[ember dew]

if its balanced now why did you make a thread?

[plain shard]

that's why the trails suck. It removes that power that recon had to impact a game

[ember dew]

they still maintain the power, all they need to do is move locations every few shots

[spiral pilot]

my bad, did not add the /s

[ember dew]

/s?

[spiral pilot]

Do you anything other than your opinion to make this statement?

[ember dew]

what do you want me to provide other then my oppinion on a suggestion thread?

[spiral pilot]

Either data I can analyze, or recognition that you cannot objectively evaluate the issue at hand. And maybe support to get the devs have something other than loud players in discords to make changes to the game.

[ember dew]

your pursuit of objectivity is hypocritical, what sort of evidence do you posses that supports the claim "The sniper changes are actually pushing people to snipe from further away."

[stark wing]

People that say recon is weak have never had a good flanking recon.

As a flanker I sat around 200-500m from the frontline of the fight.

As the flanker I:

• acted as a mobile spawn for my squad. generally getting them close to other points to back cap
  -picked off enemy flankers
  -put bullets in the backs of the head of squad of medics all chain reviving the front line.
  -swapped attention over to my squad that is now currently back capping and picking off enemies trying to surround and kill them
  -hit chopper pilots that think they are safe to fly in a straight line since they are still over their territory.

Sniper trail kills the flanker playstyle. the same playstyle that helps squads push back objectives or flank the frontline.

The only two things sniper trails do is
A. look cool
B. turns the recon into an unhelpful camper.

Glint on medium scope. fine. Honestly it might help. if you turn a corner and see glint down a hallway you know that your in a sniper sight line. you either run the fuck away or try to Quickdraw the sniper.
adds counter play to the closer sniper but also tension to the enemy.

All the stupid smoke trails do is force the recon to camp 800m away and provide limited to no impact in fights

or sit in their drone 24/7

[spiral pilot]

Explained in OP. But it is clickbait, I agree 🙂

I did steer this to a real thing tho.

[ember dew]

What is this real thing?

[spiral pilot]

Data driven changes added to player feedback

And transparency of the decision made to balance out the game.

[ember dew]

do you not believe developers have access to this data already?

[ember dew]

they are transparent, visa ve patch notes.

[spiral pilot]

Patch notes does not equal transparent decision making.

[ember dew]

dev streans?

you want a 24 hour stream of their day to day?

[spiral pilot]

man, if havent had the plasure to see how a good dev team displays decision making to make balance changes, go look at hunt showdown.

I do think it is too much for Oki to handle. He isnt a Dev team.

He is a Dev.

[spiral pilot]

Poorly written, too. We have had this issue a lot.

[spiral pilot]

Id they do, dont share, and dont explain reasoning to changes, we cant know and then community opinion is very uncertain. If they do and simply dont use it, why not share it. Im guessing they really dont, however.

[spiral pilot]

I hate WoT, but they have very decent explanations of balance changes (when they make them...)

[ember dew]

giakomo, i recommend making a thread about transparency rather then stating it here. 9/10 i assume devs will simply read the title, the opening messagae and look at the pool count to determine the viability of a suggestion.

[spiral pilot]

Oki dropped here, and was told this repeatedly by several people previously on this thread this same thing. He cant claim not knowing now.

[ember dew]

just my opinion at the end of the day 🤷‍♂️

[spiral pilot]

He never responded though, making me think he has some data (heatmaps) but I dont know about other gun stats.

or players stats.

[ember dew]

if we have access to our own stats, he definietly has access to them

do you play BBR?

[spiral pilot]

yeah, I know i have my own, but it doesnt record for instance

every single kill you did, with your loadout at that moment, and your position. It stores number of kills, range of your best kill, and your streaks.

that will not suffice for our purposes here.

We need at least, every kill, with its kill distance, weapon configuration, weapon, and distances to relevant things like distance to cap and distance to spawn.

also terminal damage dealt.

if you know how much damage the killshot did you get valuable info.

Hunt showdown records this for EVERY player in EVERY match. It even stores your exact map location. So i know this is doable.

[ember dew]

bare in mind you are comparing a triple AAA dev team to 3 indie devs

[spiral pilot]

yeha I do. Hence im aware this is overwhelming to this Dev team