Battlebit currently has severe pacing issues

[winter zinc]

Currently the game has a very fast movement and time to kill. It also has a large number of players that commonly come from all directions and can kill you from far range. This means you're very rarely safe and are encouraged to constantly keep moving to stay alive and play effectively.

The game also has tons of mechanics that leave you extremely vulnerable. Gadgets and grenades require a decent amount of downtime to use. Most engagements result in bleeding which forces the player to be vulnerable to bandage and heal. Reloads are slow and combining magazines does not allow the player to sprint. Players are expected to revive each other with a long, immobile revive process.

The result is not a slow and team focused game, but a very fast paced gameplay that repeatedly comes to a screeching halt before snapping back to a fast paced game as soon as possible. There is no safe downtime, there is only forced downtime in dangerous situations.

Possible solutions:

• Lean into the slower side of the game. A stamina system of some kind could limit how easily players can flank eachother, and turn sprinting from a constant to a deliberate choice. Doing so could lead to a slower paced game without as many screeching halts, result in more safe downtime, and possibly encourage teamwork and interaction with players.

• Lean into the faster side of the game. Reduce the necessity for screeching halts. Consider limiting bandage mechanics to the planned milsim mode, or change the conditions where bleeding occurs. Consider instant melee and grenade buttons or speeding up the bandaging process. Allow players to choose a time to stop and organize themselves before going back into the fray, rather than forcing them to stop every few minutes.

[smoky acorn]

what is the issue with how it works rn?

[winter zinc]

In most games we see a gradual raising and lowering of the pacing. You go from safer (not safe, but safer) down time to moments of excitement that reside back to down time. Think how games like counter strike or older battlefields play out. Too much down time, the game is boring. Too much excitement, players burn out and don't have time to toy with stuff.
Currently Battlebit is the latter. The mechanics that are intended to slow it down dont do so with a natural down time, but a time sensitive halts to combat that make you vulnerable to attack. This means the game burns out players and gives them little breathing room to get creative with the games sandbox.

[smoky acorn]

don't really see an issue with it

[undone perch]

Oki talked about this on the recent devcast, he feels that the game is only fun for people for a couple of hours a week due to having no long term rewarding elements

[winter zinc]

I dont believe this is a progression issue.
Edit: nevermind misunderstood

[undone perch]

Getting kills by out aiming or flanking and enemy is only fun for so long before it becomes stale and you burn out

[winter zinc]

Very reassuring if the devs already see the issue

[amber storm]

Yeah am I the only one who just plays the game and that's it

Game seems fine to me

[winter zinc]

question: how often do you play? This isnt an attack or anything Im just curious cause its relevant

[undone perch]

Doesn't matter that you don't, Oki already talked about seeing a continuous drop in player retention

[amber storm]

I play every night

[undone perch]

Good for you that you enjoy it, doesn't change the fact that it's an easily observable problem for the developers

[amber storm]

I'll never be the person that says "I dont care therefore it's not a problem" I'm just saying I felt like the only one who doesn't see the same issues as others

[winter zinc]

Then I guess our experiences are pretty different. I cant really do that because the game gets stale too fast.

[amber storm]

I play with friends so maybe it helps

[smoky acorn]

oh did he also say that this is the reason for it?

[winter zinc]

That is probably a very large factor. I usually play solo.

[undone perch]

Not necessarily what the post is about, but as I wrote above he explained something similar

Of course you can't point finger on one issue and blame it for everything

But he certainly feels its a part of it from what I listened to

[winter zinc]

From your description its a bit less clear if he thinks the issue I laid out is the reason for the burn out

[smoky acorn]

I mean the game is out for a while now and had no major update so far. Ye we got new guns, maps and some gameplay changes but nothing really major.
Beside except skins there is nothing to grind for and honestly I don't think most skins look good

/ are worth the grind to get them

[winter zinc]

Content updates are not the main thing that retains players. Many games have steady player counts with little content updates.

[hidden path]

I feel this ties in a lot with the spawning threads I've seen in the past honestly, it's a pretty common observation that full team wipes just dont happen often since players can respawn on eachother so quickly/easily

[winter zinc]

I wouldnt expect team wipes when teams are 128 players. But there is no sense of safe and unsafe areas in bbr

[hidden path]

squad* I mean lol

since you can spawn on squadmates fairly quickly. the only reliable way to get rid of a group of players is wipe the whole squad or run them off. Rarely happens when the guy you just killed comes back 10 seconds later with full ammo, armor, and fairly close to the front line

Can't find the specific messages bevause they butchered discord mobile and I can't search in threads 😒 but user '_disciple' mentioned some other games with wave-based spawning mechanics that gave players bresthing room after getting some kills

I'll look around tor it but can't promise anything with the janky searching

#1180199257333059584 message

While I don't think this would mesh well with Battlebit as a whole, I think the ability to properly put enemies out of commission without having them respawn shortly after nearby can be a part of the issue

[solemn pond]

The casual player does not want to run around like a spaz constantly and that is the playstyle BBR is nurturing.

Honestly, they need to start listening to the minority players here as the long term players are not thinking of getting new players to stay.

[hidden path]

thing is too, "majority" is just majority of vocal players on the discord

not game as a whole

It really is an issue, the divide here though. Ik Oki talked about adding ingame polling so fingers crossed on that

[winter zinc]

In my experience, devs should listen to everyone, but in context. Instead of just listening to the majority, consider who they are and why they say what they do. The average person doesn't have experience with game design, but their experience playing the game is still valuable

[willow spade]

I know casual players that do

So...

[solemn pond]

Player retention says otherwise for the vast majority.

[willow spade]

So fuck them even though they're also casual players?

[undone perch]

If the game keeps dying then yes

I don't want to see this game end up like the majority of indie successes where the developer didn't learn anything form making the game a hit

[willow spade]

Ok so let's say they do that and the game's numbers dont improve.

What then, we going to blame the game for other people's lack of want to adapt and play around anything?

The issue isn't pacing imo, the issue has been player awareness which they're actively trying to remedy (from what I've seen maybe a bit too well )

Game's pace feels plenty fine, it's more that some classes just cant match it like recon and support.

[undone perch]

People disagree what the issue is, Oki needs to decide what he think its best and stick with it

If he takes the middle ground, it will just piss of everyone and nobody will like it

He doesn't want it to be a full arcade shooter

[willow spade]

Id rather him that than lean hard into one side, which always results in worse outcomes

[undone perch]

But it reamains to be seen what other "milsim" aspects he wants to put it

[undone perch]

Hard disagree on that

The games disconect is the main issue in my eyes

Some elements just seem completly out of place from others

[willow spade]

Only mechanic I've felt that way about is bleeding tbh

Not even because it exists, but because its HP and not shot received based

[willow spade]

Halo and Apex are very recent examples of how leaning one direction when making your game can fuck it royally

Apex does the "flip flop" shit which makes the community as toxic as it is now to each other, when a lot of patches could have been middle-grounds that could have been easy to do.

And Halo listened to nothing BUT pro players, completely foregoing the casual audience

Though halo infinite is starting to come back after realizing what they did was dumb

[undone perch]

That is a much different and dumber example

I cant say anything about Apex

Since I never even touched that game once

The issue in my eyes is that the best strategy in this game is to ambush and flank

Nothing else is even comparable

[willow spade]

Because people don't spread the fuck out

[undone perch]

Squad gameplay is pointless except rally points

[vital tusk]

In my First hours of the game I couldnt even Tell apart enemy from friend

[undone perch]

SMGs are hands down best weapons in most situations

[vital tusk]

There is a lot of issues in the game for starters

[undone perch]

And other features like destruction is a situational gimmick

[vital tusk]

You are months behind the meta son

[willow spade]

On 258 and 127, yes. Don't expect coordination from those with how chaotic they get.

[vital tusk]

Maybe update the game

[willow spade]

False lol

[undone perch]

Thats the games main selling point

And its marketing

[willow spade]

Of course, it's a tool to be used to your advantage when applicable.

[undone perch]

Then eligthen me what is best?

Because SMGs are definetly the things I die to the most

[willow spade]

Yes

If you're really going into a FPS game with 258 players expecting a coordinated and tactical experience it's not gonna happen unless they slow the game down hella hard

And the only thing that changes is that steamrolls will still happen, just much slower

Which will still make people want to leave

[vital tusk]

Dmrs are currently the strongest imo, after that its very balanced

[willow spade]

Yeah DMRs rip everything apart

[vital tusk]

Dmr on Assault not ok recon

Or eng

[willow spade]

Whereas if milsim mode is still coming, it can build more mechanics around that other than transforming the base game

Because despite what a lot of people think, milsim type experiences aren't popular by any stretch.

[winter zinc]

I'd then, then my theory is wrong. But I think that is unlikely

[willow spade]

And I also think slowing the game down is unlikely to bring many players back.

[undone perch]

This is not about bringing people back

I have never seen a time that actually worked

This is more of a question how to make sure new players dont leave

[winter zinc]

I dont think the answer is slowing it down. I believe the answer is finding a more consistent and stable pacing
I propose 2 solutions, one that is faster and one that is slower.

[willow spade]

I looked those over, and I think they're good ideas but I'm more of the mind that map design is a larger issue.

A lot of maps have open space for fuck all of a reason, and it makes flanks and back caps so easy.

So every match since release has been just players chasing each other's tails

[winter zinc]

Hmmm. I'm not sure how less open space will make it harder to flank

[willow spade]

They'd risk being spotted more easily

[winter zinc]

Isn't it harder to be spotted when there is open space?

[willow spade]

Not really

If you know how to scan with your eyes it's easy to spot players, but the further they are the harder it is.

[winter zinc]

But surely it is easier when there are less buildings blocking line of sight, no?

[willow spade]

Depends, trees and bushes are also a factor.

If it's just flat land then no, but most maps aren't gonna be flat land

[gilded jasper]

Don't agree with your solutions but you have a good diagnostic there. I'm pretty sure that removing squad spawning in favor of more abundant, destroyable/capturable static spawn points would give exactly this kind of pacing.

[willow spade]

Static spawns would be nice, idk about destroyable, but capturable yeah

[winter zinc]

Yeah I'm much less confident in the specifics than the diagnostics generally. I'm only an amateur game designer

[willow spade]

Little forward bases independent of flags would be interesting

Would encourage players to spread the fuck out too

[gilded jasper]

Destroyable like rally points I mean. Those would just need to be more easily accessible (i.e. not leader only, no point cost) without squad spawning.

[willow spade]

Plus it doesn't hard nerf flanking because you literally would just have to work for it a smidge bit harder

[winter zinc]

It's not that flanking should be weak, but that it shouldn't be so common that you're attacked from all directions all the time

[willow spade]

Again comes around to being selfless and and spread out to cover your team which people do find hard in this game, so some kind of incentive that benefits the team to do so would be extremely fucking welcome.

[winter zinc]

This can only go so far when one player can so easily sneak past and summon their entire squad in an area.

Especially with team sizes so large