#Emergency/Fast Reload is unbalanced currently due to one "issue"/oversight (easy fix, plz read)

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

latent gate
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So, a weird "issue" with fast reloading is that you can pick up a mag at the same time as doing the reload (as seen in the picture below). You can also do it while ADS and not looking at it.

This makes it almost always a better option to do a fast reload while picking up your dropped mag at the same time rather than doing the slower tactical reload. Most of the time you'll finish picking up the mag BEFORE your reload finishes so you can move around while reloading anyway making the benefits of the tactical reload moot. Once a player knows about this it essentially invalidates the tactical reload for any uses other than while running between objectives.

I wouldn't call this skill expression because once you know about it it's the obvious choice. It's like L canceling in Super Smash Brother Melee. No real reason not to do it once you know how - except this requires no execution skill tbh.

Here's my proposed change: make it so you can't pick up a mag at the same time as reloading. This will make it so you'll want to recover your mags AFTER a fight, not during a fight. The emergency reload should - when you include picking up the mag - be slower than the hold reload. As it is currently, it's almost always better to just reload and pick up the mag in a corner rather than use the hold reload during any fights. A lot of players already don't bother pickup up their dropped mags, but this'll make reloading an actual choice rather than something with an obvious answer. When I choose between reloads, I want to be thinking "do I do a fast reload right now and abandon the mag possibly to win this fight? Or do I want to risk doing a longer reload, but keeping the mag for later."

TLDR: Reloading isn't a choice atm, it's boring. You should basically be doing the fast reload in most situations because you can pick up the mag while reloading. Change it so you can't pick up a mag while reloading. Force it to be an actual choice rather than an obvious decision.

20231210163304_1.jpg
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Emergency/Fast Reload is unbalanced currently due to one issue/oversight (easy fix)

grand kestrel
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not an issue

latent gate
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It kind of depends, I'm calling it an issue because I think it's such an obvious choice that it gives less interesting choices to the player. That's why I put issue in quotes.

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Emergency/Fast Reload is unbalanced currently due to one "issue"/oversight (easy fix)

grand kestrel
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it's a neat tactic

latent gate
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I do agree that it's kind of a cool thing to be able to do, but it has concequences as I listed above

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You essentially never want to do the slower reload because of it. The slower reload becomes delegated to "I'm moving between objectives" rather than being what it should be, the default reload

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the fast reload should (as it is in other games) be the emergency reload, done in situations where you need to be FAST and worry about picking up your mags later

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I showed doing this while prone, but you can do this while standing, crouching, etc

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in fact, if you crouch you don't need to look down necessarily

vocal sierra
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it forces you to stand still

twin delta
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Yes but that still means your stuck in place looking at your mag instead of sprinting

latent gate
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See, thing is

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A lot of times you can pick up the mag before your reload is even finished

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and it really does not take long

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So you can be ready to shoot someone SOONER than if you did a hold reload while moving

grand kestrel
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this is never an issue stop hating fun

slate shadow
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There are plenty of times I decide to slow reload instead of fast reload because I want to be on the move when I'm reloading and I want to keep my mag. There are many times I have died because I encountered an enemy while doing this.

latent gate
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It's not necessarily an issue, it's more that it invalidates the longer reload a lot I feel like and is an obvious choice in 90% of situations

real dirge
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Have you counted milliseconds of how much it is "faster"?

slate shadow
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This feature seems pretty balanced to me, it was actually one of the things I noticed and liked when I first started playing.

latent gate
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I think it's more noticable on guns like the ak15 and such for sure, but once you get the motion of it down it's basically your default reload

slate shadow
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Only if you have the ability to stay still while you do it.

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Which is good, there are pros and cons to each type of reload.

latent gate
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You really don't stay still long, lemme count the seconds it takes

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it takes less than a second to pick up an M4 mag

slate shadow
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Alright.

latent gate
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I know the larger mags on the LMGs take longer, I believe smg mags take less time

grand kestrel
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I sure love making the game slower and getting rid of cool mechanics BBClown

latent gate
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so like, another example. You would usually hold reload BEFORE going around a corner right?

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A lot of times doing this faster reload after going around a corner can get your ready to shoot faster

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I'm speaking as if you're running away from a fight

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OH also

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you can pick up the mag while ADS and such too

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and not even looking at it

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added that to the first line of the post

grand kestrel
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this should be romoved because you don't like it and are the only one to complain about it?

latent gate
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Some peeps don't realize you can do it. I explained why I think it would be better NOT to have it

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It subtly removes a lot of risk reward from the game

real dirge
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imo, this is not big thing in the game to even look at it.

latent gate
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It's just a little thing tbh, but I thought it'd be good to bring it up. I've brought it up elsewhere

slate shadow
grand kestrel
slate shadow
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Read the post bro

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just because you dont agree with his justification doesnt mean its not there

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He wrote four paragraphs of detail explaining the change and why he wants it.

grand kestrel
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it's bad because I don't like it
isn't a justification

slate shadow
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This makes it almost always a better option to do a fast reload while picking up your dropped mag at the same time rather than doing the slower tactical reload. Most of the time you'll finish picking up the mag BEFORE your reload finishes so you can move around while reloading anyway making the benefits of the tactical reload moot. Once a player knows about this it essentially invalidates the tactical reload for any uses other than while running between objectives.

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First paragraph

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This will make it so you'll want to recover your mags AFTER a fight, not during a fight.

grand kestrel
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Once a player knows about this it essentially invalidates the tactical reload for any uses other than while running between objectives.
incorrect

grand kestrel
slate shadow
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A lot of players already don't bother pickup up their dropped mags, but this'll make reloading an actual choice rather than something with an obvious answer.

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When I choose between reloads, I want to be thinking "do I do a fast reload right now and abandon the mag possibly to win this fight? Or do I want to risk doing a longer reload, but keeping the mag for later."

grand kestrel
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(ther's 14k posts about why making the game slower isn't good)

slate shadow
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There is plenty of justification here

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all of these points are points i disagree with, but they exist.

grand kestrel
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they're not good points so they might as well not be there

swift solar
slate shadow
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lmao I think i've done that like once

swift solar
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Ive stolen every mag in game at least once

slate shadow
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Are you sure youre not stealing your own mags?

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Maybe you just forgot who they belonged to

swift solar
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Nope
Sometimes i just find one on the ground

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Other times i just beat someone to it

latent gate
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I'm currently trying to record a quick little example with my bad aim

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I reload back and forth between fast and slow reloads

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It clearly does make a bit of a diff even on the M4, I'ma do a diff gun real fast

grand kestrel
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I have to move - slow reaload
I don't have to move - quick reload with mag pickup
I don't have to move but there's danger quick reload without picking up my mag

This is depth, this is complexity there is no reason to remove it.

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You can figure out how to do it in the first few hours of gameplay on your own.

slate shadow
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I think the disconnect comes from different playstyles. If you play more static than run and gunning, you will almost always pick up your mag because there is no downside for you. But what static players dont see is that there is a downside for people who run and gun.

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Problem is that I think if there weren't people who run and gun in this game, it would be much more fitting for reload times to better match the drop + pickup speed anyway.

latent gate
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It's pretty much the same idea as the M4, but figured I'd show it on a different gun as well

latent gate
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and if you look at youtube vids of peeps who are particularly good at the game, you'll see them basically reloading like this all the time (fast reload + pickup)

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There seems to be depth, but in reality if you get incorporate this maneuver into your kit you'll end up doing it way more often than most other ways of reloading. It's especially important if you run empty/light armor like me and have limited mags.

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That half second of being able to shoot back is often more vital than running away and reloading, especially if you're on a flank with enemies all around you. You'll want to reload faster rather than hold-reload and get caught out in the open

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Now, if you play much slower with heavier armor and such, or at long distances, this may not feel like something you need to do ever.

If you play support tho and have found this out, you'll never hold reload again lol

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Like it's actually SO much faster for lmgs to reload this way

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The risk of dropping the mag and running isn't really there is my point right. Very rarely do I find I need to both drop my mag and run away. If I'm reloading I'm often in a situation where I have enough time and space to pick up the mag

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Picking up the mag also doesn't speed up the reload here, so if you were going to get caught out unable to finish the fast reload, you'd die anyway

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So you may THINK there's more choice currently, but really there isn't tbh.

native nymph
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I feel like dropping and picking is the best or at the very least a good option 9 times outta 10

latent gate
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Like, leaving my mag behind doesn't make my reload faster, it just leaves my mag behind lol. If I'm puttin myself in situations where that'd save me changing this tech wouldn't affect anything I think. Changing this is for the other like 9 outta 10 times like @native nymph just said.

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Like, off the top of your head you might be like "hey, wait a second this is removing skill expression"

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but is it skill expression if it's the optimal choice almost EVERY time?

grand kestrel
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yes

latent gate
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Similar to how L-canceling in super smash bros melee is the optimal choice nearly EVERY time you want to use it to speed up your aerial move recovery on landing.

grand kestrel
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having choices is good no matter what

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as long as they are used

latent gate
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That's what I'm arguing, it isn't really a choice

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Like really try to implement this in your gameplay if you haven't yet

native nymph
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But it isn’t a choice, an overwhelming majority of time it’s just straight up better to do.

grand kestrel
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stop doing it if it bothers you

native nymph
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That’s not-

latent gate
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Something Oki wants to do with this game is make it more tactical. A big part of tactical gameplay are the choices you make. Thinking about your options, what would be best to do. Currently being able to pick up mags while reloading makes it so there really isn't a difficult choice to make. There's nothing interesting about it

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If oki wants to make this game more "tactical", a bit step is making choices more defined and matter more imo

grand kestrel
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after removing this you'd slow reload most of the time would that be bad too?

latent gate
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Whether the choices be fast or slow

latent gate
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While the fast reload is an emergency reload

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IRL it literally is an emergency reload lol

native nymph
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Thinking, a terrifying thought

latent gate
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Sometimes it might be better to fast reload to kill someone even while far away, but currently you'd just fast reload no matter what tbh

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So

grand kestrel
latent gate
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once this is implemented fast reload + picking up the mag would be overall slower than the hold to reload because you have to pick up the mags after. This means you have a recovery time

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Meaning there's a risk there

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Sort of like throwing out a super in street fighter or something

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like the recovery frames

native nymph
latent gate
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IN FACT

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if you bind grab mag and reload to the same key it'd probs be even easier to reload

grand kestrel
latent gate
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So that's a moot point imo, that's just another issue entirely

grand kestrel
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they'd do it more if they would have less opportunities to get mags back

native nymph
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Yeah that’s already what’s happening. Reviving isn’t meaningful enough so people would rather just get back to respawn

latent gate
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I mean fuck, when I run out of mags from emergency reloading every once in a while I just kill myself 😂

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Usually from accidently hitting it 😔

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I've got butter fingers I'll admit

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Emergency/Fast Reload is unbalanced currently due to one "issue"/oversight (easy fix, plz read)

latent gate
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anyone who knows how to pick up mags this way generally will have all their mags, or die before it would matter

native nymph
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(Tbh unrelated but they can stay bugged and pure white because it makes it easier to find them for me)

latent gate
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Like, I've talked to people who are like "lol I don't even pick up my mags" in game before

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some people don't even know you can tactical reload, but that's a diff issue

grand kestrel
latent gate
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Point is, this is just one of those things where at first glance you'll be like "wait wtf, why", but when you really think about it it's like "oh wait, that makes sense why you'd want that to be changed"

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Now, if you could make it more skill based I'd be fucking down

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like if I could FLING my mag in a direction while reloading by moving or something

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so I can plan out where I want to pick it up

grand kestrel
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I still wouldn't want it to change, it's not like I'd care that much(then why do you care lmao) but I see no point in removing it

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it lowers the skill ceiling

latent gate
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It's just like one of those little things that adds up man

grand kestrel
latent gate
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Ehhhhh, the skill ceiling for reloading is like 15ft, this would honestly raise it imo

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like to 20ft

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Not much, but I think it'd make when you choose to reload matter much more

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Like sweats for example wouldn't just do this by default

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It's bascially speeding up your reloads for free

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It's like jumping around and moving your mouse to quick turn right, once you know about it you've mastered it

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it's very easy

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Sometimes limitations can breed more choices/creativity or makes the choices you have to make more impactful

native nymph
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The choice between quick and normal reload should be
Keep mag vs Faster Reload
Right now though it’s
Heck, why not both?

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There is little mechanical skill involved, very little mental skill either

latent gate
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Yup

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I kind of doubt this post will get many check marks because at face value it seems like a dumb ass change

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but I just wanted to bring attention to it

grand kestrel
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if u use the urk grip and fast mag on the FAL picking up the mag takes longer than realoading while quick reloading which is amusing to me

native nymph
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Never used FAL, is it that bad? HyperXD

latent gate
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The short mag on the fal is hiliarious

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Do recommend the fal, it's a funny gun

native nymph
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The funny

grand kestrel
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it's based as the kids say

native nymph
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Rather silly even

latent gate
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actually, as the kids say, my post wants to add fanum tax to guns

grand kestrel
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gotta love the right arm of the free world

slate shadow
# latent gate Something Oki wants to do with this game is make it more tactical. A big part of...

The problem is that this mechanic is only a "problem" for one specific playstyle. For high KPM, it's almost never ideal to stop moving to reload, so most of the time you will see players either slow reload while running (rarely), or fast reload while running. For high K/D there is more incentive to keep your empty mags, so whether you fast reload will depend on if you need to to survive, and whether you pick up the mag will depend on how much it impacts your ability to get more kills that life. For a static playstyle it is pretty much always the right choice to drop the pickup.

Removing this mechanic only positively effects the balance of the static playstyle, while removing some of complexity from the other two play styles.

latent gate
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Gotta make some skibbidi choices tbh

deep locust
grand kestrel
latent gate
native nymph
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@slate shadow how are you not level 1 yet bro. I see you everywhere yet you don’t have the funny ribbon yet

latent gate
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If you're skilled enough to have a high KPM, you're going to be doing this stuff constantly

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and you'll be positioning in ways to abuse it

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It actually can help high movement playstyles a lot

slate shadow
hollow gyro
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I'd leave it as it is. That's a minor thing that barely any people use.

latent gate
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And you'll naturally be choosing what's better for you situation, but this type of reload essentially lets you pick up your mags for free and speed it up

slate shadow
native nymph
latent gate
latent gate
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also I don't wanna lmao

slate shadow
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I watch a bunch of high kpm streamers and one thing I've noticed before is that they very very rarely pick up mags ever

latent gate
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I watched a youtuber who got like 1500 kills with each gun I believe? Like unlocked a bunch of stuff on everything. He always did this reload and he seemed pretty good at the game to me

grand kestrel
deep locust
slate shadow
latent gate
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Also, if you're high KPM you might just not care about your empty mags because you can just die and respawn if you needed to

slate shadow
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Which is exactly what I'm talking about

native nymph
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Remember: Swapping to your secondary is always faster than reloading! hmmnice

slate shadow
latent gate
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Yea, so they don't care anyway about picking up their mags, but if they needed to they can just do it for free

latent gate
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The good ol' days of pistols being slower to swap to

slate shadow
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The complexity that stems from this mechanic effects high kd gameplay the most.

latent gate
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I'm confused what we're talking about here tbh. What I'm saying is for higher k/d players they'll use this because it's just free reload speed once you get used to implementing it. For high KPM they'll either drop their mags and not care because they can just refresh upon death, or they'll use this instead of the long reload because it's faster

deep locust
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If they nerfed quick reload they would need to nerf every actions that can be done at the same time (all of them). For example, building while bandaging, or planting bomb while bandaging/reviving someone etc. I think it's pretty cool to be able to do multiple things at the same time

latent gate
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TBH I don't really care about K/D and KPM. I'm just speaking from the average player standpoint here

latent gate
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I think you shouldn't be able to do some of those things lol

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But one step at a time here

slate shadow
latent gate
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but agree to disagree

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I don't play static and I use it, I'm not good enough to be high kpm or high k/d, but calling my preferred style of play static defo isn't true.

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I'm always moving from place to place, trying to flank, hopping around to dodge stuff. I like to stay on the move, and I can fit this in my playstyle

charred mulch
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NO

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this would make it extremely annoying to deal with helis as support

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fast reloading while picking up the empty box is the only way to keep a decent fire rate on them

latent gate
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Also you can still fast drop the mags lol, so you can just drop two of them then pick them up

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Like, the strat is the exact same actually

charred mulch
latent gate
boreal lark
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difference between normal and fast reload is you have to stay in the same spot until the mag is picked up so more of a chance to die if an enemy comes to your position

thick raptor
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Me when i just dont pick up the mag

candid pendant
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Yeah unless you can sprint + pick up mag without stopping while doing drop mag reloads, I think it serves its main purpose. I do think it's a bit silly how 90% of the time you're doing 'drop mag' reloads tho

latent gate
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That's my point mainly. The drop mag reload is the main one you should be doing. It's just silly and defeats the purpose. I personally think you shouldn't be able to interact with stuff while reloading - or that it should cancel your reload like in other games.

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If interacting canceled your reload, when you drop your mag you could be like "oops" and pick it back up still, but not finish the reload

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I think that should apply to medkits, arming stuff, etc, it just makes sense imo. If the devs want the game to be gamey, that's A-OK, but it seems their intentions are to make it a little less gamey, so fixing stuff like this is a step towards that.

slate shadow
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Please please please please please please please please stop trying to remove things from the game because they are "silly"

latent gate
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Well when I say silly I mean more so it's kind of jank and gamey. There's nothing wrong with that, but if the devs want the game to be jank and gamey then we should be able to have things like shotguns, parachutes, sliding (as a transition state), a melee attack, etc

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If they want to slow the game down this is one of the steps they can take

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But, I think it should apply to interactions across the board as well personally

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But, baby steps

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Like, it's a bit nebulous to explain, but game feel can affect how a game feels to play right. Attention to detail and all that

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So having consistency in that sort of thing is important if that's what you're going for. If they don't want to be "silly block game" to the general populus forever they'll need to tighten up and polish stuff like this. If they want to be a "mechanically complex game" with neat little tricks, cool little mechanics, etc, they'll need to be more purposeful with the stuff. TBH the picking up and interacting with stuff while reloading simply feels like an oversight they just left in because it wasn't bothering anyone/wasn't a big deal

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Like a light sliding system could add more complexity to the movement as an example. Just something basic where you can slide into cover - no momentum conservation like apex/titanfall.

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It could smooth it out, feel more polished. That's kind of what I'm getting at with this change as well. Not only do I think current reload stuff is a bit of a non-complex decision to make that isn't very interesting or intensity inducing, it also helps applies that image of "jank roblox game" to the game. It's a little part of a greater whole imo.

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But like I said, baby steps with this stuff.

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I'm the kind of person that appreciates attention to detail and all that, so I'm a bit biased lol

thick raptor
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Damn

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Wall

latent gate
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Inertia you wouldn't read anything no matter how short it was lmao

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Gimme ur downvote and get outta 'ere

thick raptor
thick raptor
latent gate
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You could have a slide into a prone motion, that'd be cool

thick raptor
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People would cry

latent gate
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Like you slide onto your back and shimmy

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Climbing over walls is realistic tho

slate shadow
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idk man, sliding seems kind of jank and gamey

latent gate
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Either or, primary argument for this is in my post above. Feel and mood are just some secondary things I thought I'd

latent gate
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Like climbing currently is jank af as well, but I like the choice and freedom of movement it gives you

thick raptor
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Fuck you just say you have a drop pouch ez fix Clueless

latent gate
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Lol nah

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Add one of those grabby hand extenders

slate shadow
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sliding as a way to move faster / dodge shots is def gamey

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and imo pretty clunky

latent gate
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Not to move faster, but just as a transition to crouching

slate shadow
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unless its like quake arena sliding

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oh

latent gate
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Sliding doesn't necessarily have to make you faster, it can be a nice little transition too to make crouching from a sprint smooth

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I think that's the main reason it's in a lot of games now tbh

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Like halo infinite sliding barely speeds you up, but man does it feel nicer than just crouching

candid pendant
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would help improve the speed and flow of cover-to-cover combat which I think a lot of people would be happy with

delicate otter
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Sliding is one of the thing that is on the banlist of the thread

arctic marsh
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I'm with this suggestion, doing multiple actions at once is weird. You should be able to go pick your mags up after a fast reload but not during.

latent gate
scenic ocean
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Yeah 99% of the time the “emergency reload” is just the default reload, and the punishment for dropping your mag is negligible

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there should be a trade off for reloading faster, standing still for such a short time isn’t one

candid pendant
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Maybe make it so you can't pick up mags til the animation is fully finished?

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At least the mag being dropped for that reload