TTK / Time to kill discussion

[pearl haven]

A thread to talk about time to kill / TTK in BBR because a lot of people are spamming it in other threads.

I think TTK should remain the same, or if not, even faster, to punish poor movement / rotations from players

Prolonged TTK is likely to result in rewarding poor decisions on the matter and drag out fights unreasonably - armour already does a good job in extending the fight, why would we rely on an increased TTK to make it worse

Personal opinion - the current TTK is better, having an extended version of the TTK will just reward poor movement and rotation plays

[next swallow]

Where's the suggestion?

[pearl haven]

To keep TTK

as it is now

There I developed the pinned comment

Plus I cannot imagine Support armour will balance well with an increased TTK

It already takes many bullets more to kill Exo supports

Prolonged TTK will greater that fact

I just want to hear the other side on why TTK should be longer

No like, hate or anything, just an opinion wanting to hear what would it benefit

[next swallow]

Thre really isn't anyting to discuss here.. you kind of just made a thread just to make a thread..

[pearl haven]

It's a discussion tart

do you think TTK should stay?

increase?

decrease?

The entire point of having an opinion

I mean to edit "tard" to "tart"

I can't do it for some reason

there we go

Don't misinterpret that, I didn't mean to refer to r word or what not, genuine mistype

[clear kraken]

You know it should be in feedback

[pearl haven]

Would that be a better place for it?

I thought only devs could psot things in there

Plus it's not a followed up on feature yet

[clear kraken]

Everyone can

[pearl haven]

but the mods make the thread no?

[clear kraken]

Just you have pinned feedback

With generic stuff

[pearl haven]

oh I see

[next swallow]

https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1138534079499862208

[pearl haven]

I hadn't scrolled that far with that channel

Makes more sense, fair enough

Gun play ≠ TTK though

[next swallow]

Does it not, would you rather go through each and individual gun thread instead and talk ttk that way?

[pearl haven]

Gunplay is general reference to how guns handle or shoot ect. I wouldn't exactly put time to kill in that factor

[next swallow]

Damage, Handling, Types.. its a general thread for everything guns do.

unless you are adding nades and hammers to time to kill as well.

[pearl haven]

Gunplay is more of a generalisation not the specification of TTK since I imagine it's a relatively important factor I don't think it should be included to be drowned out by everything else

[pearl haven]

I mean, TTK effects everything I imagine

Not just weapons

Unless it's specifically gun TTK

Which there was no mention I believe, it was just TTK as a generalisation

[next swallow]

#1138198378027679754 message
Then I guess you make a post in here telling the mod you want a TTK general thread..

[pearl haven]

but isn't feedback for currently implaced mechanics and such?

TTK hasn't been changed yet, they're planning to experiment on it in the future

but it hasn't been added yet, so no real "feedback" is there

It's just "I don't think we should have it cause ---- "

[next swallow]

Neither has milsim and it has a thread.

[pearl haven]

which is what this thread is for

[pearl haven]

Milsim is an experience more than a mechanic in the game

[next swallow]

Alright bye.

[pearl haven]

Plus, the old games they made

were more milsim

btw

so there is feedback from that

and look how those versions of the game turned out

but yeah that's fair

[brittle shard]

TTK is fine as is. But faster: Hell no.

[pearl haven]

Okay that's fine, finally someone who actually puts forward an opinion

Why would you be against faster TTK?

I'm not saying it should be, I personally would want current TTK to stay as is forever unless further development

but I think faster TTK would do less harm than longer TTK

[brittle shard]

It's already plenty fast, and it's already in the "you don't have the human reaction to react" for the SMG category

[pearl haven]

Sure, smg TTK is strong, now PDW for the most part is

FAL has it also

[brittle shard]

human reaction at average is 0.25s

0.20s if you're really good

So yeah, faster TTK will just be more people like "I got killed in 1 frame" people

[pearl haven]

Yeah I understand that - obviously you get a lot of 1-frame deaths too

Can't help it, it's just ms

and packet loss ect

[pearl haven]

Valid reasoning

Can't argue it, 1-frame deaths are dumb

I just think curernt TTK is nice

but the longer TTK they're wanting add/test is a bad idea and a waste of time for them

When focusing on matters more pressing

would be smarter

---

Just want someone to tell me why they think TTK being increased is a good idea

[jolly chasm]

honestly ttk is kinda high with 127 people tbh

[brittle shard]

if adding a bit of TTK would solve the "1 frame kill" problem why not. But I do not think it'll do it. If they want to slow TTK maybe by 40% max. Like don't double TTK 💀

[pearl haven]

so you think, due to the player count, TTK should be increased?

[pearl haven]

I mean, how often do you get 1-framed though, personally I'd say 2/3 times a game

[brittle shard]

Personnaly, Idk, I don't put that much importance on it.

[pearl haven]

Yeah I mean, I don't think it's too much of an issue really

You can't really help it due to regions unless you region lock

Which there is?

I think

I know Tarkov doesn't allow I think 165ms+

[jolly chasm]

well think about it it's very easy to die if there are 5 people shooting at you at once

a little more time to react to the chaos would be nice

[pearl haven]

Yeah but generally 1-frame deaths refer to just instantly dying to someone (1 person)

[jolly chasm]

I'm not talking about 1 frame deaths I just mean in general

[pearl haven]

I would hope people have logic to not complain about "being 1-framed" when 6 people beam them

[pearl haven]

oh yeah for sure

[jolly chasm]

1 frame deaths are their own seperate issue

[pearl haven]

right right

I mean, should you be able to react though?

If 5 people shoot at you at once, I think unless they miss, you should die in a way where you couldn't react y'know

If I am able to come across an area where I didn't know there were 5 people existing, and I still am able to react to them, get a nade, c4, or half my spray off, I'm sure that would file it's own complaints

I'd think that is stupid

Sure, I imagine you can increase TTK in a way where if a group of people, shoot someone, it won't really change anything - however TTK is more 1 on 1 situation

As said above, 40% increase, that's 1-2 extra bullets

Might not seem like a lot, but it's enough for a lot of cases

[limber vigil]

• Oki makes argument that oh you spawn in open areas and die, the higher ttk will solve this issue

• also Oki, so guys i made it so when enemies are looking at you, you cant spawn, this solves the issue of dying in the open

[cedar bridge]

Surely everyone wont play support with higher ttks

[pearl haven]

Sureeely

Totally won't see many FAL Supports

3 tapping everyone but tanking your entire invent for fun

[ebon lintel]

Jacked kill times rewaed camping and positional play. If you die in a blink that isn't skill, that's just luck. Flick, spray, two or three decent hits, wow, great work.

The COD revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the FPS community...

It also shrinks the acceptable space of weapons. If things need to kill people in half a second or less to be viable, or have some big gimmick...

well, why have more than like eight weapons?
... although thay does turn into a question elsewhere too, but i digress.

[long flax]

making battlebit slower won't make you better

[pearl haven]

How come you say it's "luck" - when I die instantly, may that be to running in an open area, taking bad cover relative to the enemies, or dive bombing a stack of players, I wouldn't exactly call it "luck"

[pearl haven]

There are stats to the TTK per gun, I think the fastest is .200?

but the it doesn't exactly mean the rest are useless, almost every weapon is able to kill in less than .500

Not including DMR's and Snipers of course

I think TTK being increased can do more hinderance than have a positive effect

[cinder zealot]

Most guns in this game kill below .400 that includes most of the dmr's

Snipers ofc are the exception there

[pearl haven]

I mean, true given DMR's are 2 shot body lmao

Although you can argue sniper TTK can be instant if headshot ykyk

but nah that's nit picking

[cinder zealot]

Indeed lmao

[pearl haven]

I think fast TTK is healthier than extended TTK

If you've ever played Division

[cinder zealot]

It's a double edged sword in a way

A fast ttk rewards both good and bad players

[pearl haven]

You'll know that you can survive for minutes with correct cover and movement

[pearl haven]

I would argue that longer TTK would only benefit those who use movement and have good aim to increase their lethality

[cinder zealot]

You can drop someone with a fast flick but you'll die just as fast from the support prone in a corner

[cinder zealot]

Ye that's the one upside to loner ttk

Rewards good movement and aime

Like in quake or UT for example

[pearl haven]

Exactly, the only reason people may mention the "the movement sweats" ect isn't because they're aiming into a pit of 15 players and spraying them all with headshots killing them all

They're playing it with c4 or frag cause if they peak for more than .300 they're dead also

Not like they go unnoticed

[cinder zealot]

I personally prefer a fast ttk

[pearl haven]

Ofcourse, this depends on how much they go crazy with the increase

[cinder zealot]

Maybe just slightly longer than most guns are right now

[pearl haven]

I cannot imagine it being more than 30%

[cinder zealot]

But that's all personal preference

[pearl haven]

I'm with you on it

[pearl haven]

I think maybe .200 is a little fast

but that is more so a gun specific issue than a TTK issue

Give .200 is just, if you preaim/fire this area you're gonna win if you hit the shots

[ebon lintel]

My thought was that faster kill times made things more compatible with luck as much as skill.
See a man, spray at him, if luck smiles upon you all three bullets connect and the man dies.

[cinder zealot]

The bigger issue I see there is the inconsistencies with armor but that's a whole diffrent can of worms

[ebon lintel]

Egh, I worded this poorly. Hang on, that's my bad.

I think of it as shrinking what's a viable option, especially for closer encounter weapons. When the baseline is something like 700-800rpm 2-3 htk, well...
You could make a lot of weapons reskins of eachother and it wouldn't matter too much, or might even be healthier for the game. Balance easier, customization not a question of what gun in meta.

[cinder zealot]

You can do just fine playing bin meta guns tho tbh

[ebon lintel]

oh man...
god thats something to keep a dev up at night lmao

[cinder zealot]

Best example for aggressive play is the pp2000 there imo

[cinder zealot]

Indeed I don't envy the guys one bit

[ebon lintel]

Man, the F2k used to be cheese

hmm yes high stability assault rifle range profile with inbuilt... what, 1.8x scope?

uhoh.

[cinder zealot]

Hehe sounds like Bf4 ace23

[pearl haven]

That sounds more like aim than luck to be honest, sure your connect has play, if you have bad ping, you're likely to get hitmarkers, but no actual dmg, but then that's more of a connection thing than anything

I don't think luck has much to do with it really

[cinder zealot]

Never the best at one thing but insane jack of all trades

[pearl haven]

I mean, CQC is dominated by most SMG's and PDW's now, but that's okay, I think it's supposed to be really, I think Assault rifles / BR's are great medium ranges - not like many SMG's will out perform that, sure some can, but depending on the player I would say - and DMR's / Snipers for long

I would say the general combat is more so favoured by a CQC superior weapon for sure though

[cinder zealot]

FAL looking at you very dissapointed throwing shades at its unrivaled stopping power

[pearl haven]

I mean, I've done requests onto streamers channels, for them to play the PP19, the least favoured SMG, they performed above the typical players

[cinder zealot]

pp19 is fine tbh

[pearl haven]

True tbh, FAL is strong in many and all ways

[pearl haven]

Worst SMG though

[cinder zealot]

really fun to play still

[pearl haven]

I couldn't say

[ebon lintel]

i think armor as a concept turns on the "realism" bonus as much a gameplay concept
armor punishes aiming for the easy target with higher killtime, but also rewards doing so with consistent damage.

[pearl haven]

Armour is tricky, because with it, it changes a lot of factors and numbers

complicates balacing a little I feel

Definitely with the fact it's got durability ect

Then you're resorted to default TTF factors

[cinder zealot]

i'd love a playtest without armor to see how it would feel

and go from there

[pearl haven]

Insane probably

I wouldn't mind armour just having a flat dmg drop off and no durability

cause I feel like it just gets in the way sometimes

Maybe not that for helmets though

I don't mind helmets being shot off due to snipers ect

[cinder zealot]

getting a armor crack on your killing shot...

on a slower rpm gun especially

[ebon lintel]

ironically memesim mode that's been promised forever is probably not going to be what people hoped for

[pearl haven]

The amount of times I've had Exo tank half my P90 spray, stupid stuff that shit is

[ebon lintel]

reality is not consistent
reality f*cking hates you
if you want realism, prepare to have xcom

[pearl haven]

Yeah I think realism aspects into BBR are dumb

[ebon lintel]

it's the oddities of ping and not having a player facing on desth damage log I think

[pearl haven]

The Devs are constantly referring to trying to be between "Battlefield and Squad"

[ebon lintel]

eh, they aight.

[pearl haven]

Depends how deep you go really

for eg stamina

god no

[pearl haven]

Part of the experience really, it is what it is

[ebon lintel]

for me there's something very fun about blasting someone to death with the G3 though
ping ping thock thock splat
feels neuron activate-y

[pearl haven]

I don't mind server side registration for the most part - probably saved me a godly number of times

[pearl haven]

FAL experience right there

[cinder zealot]

oh for sure

[pearl haven]

Although the opposite, ScorpionEvo - just "brrrr" weaponised

[ebon lintel]

tbh the best implementation of stamina might be like
hideous destructor

while uh
256 player HD would be oh jesus christ

there are some very cool things i that game

and like
Y'know how there's some game concepts that you know would be disasters but

[pearl haven]

Unfortunately most game gimmicks die

May that be the consumer issue

or the game issue who knows

Probably both

[ebon lintel]

its not a gimmick
its like
ok, so.
Combat sim.
Slow. Purposeful.
...right?

[pearl haven]

My issue with BBR is, aspects are just polar opposites sometimes

The movement and gunplay feels as though it's supposed to be super fast paced and arcade style (imo graphics play into this also)

[ebon lintel]

Except hideous destructor lets you do rolls and side dives, lets you sprint up to crazy speeds with inertia to jump gaps...

sure, stamina, but it's not cod run out in like three seconds
and there's something exhilarating about dodging fireballs and shit by doing hollywood bs

[pearl haven]

but they want to award sitting on an OBJ and not killing anybody because you didn't move

Oki has mentioned previously that he believes "kills don't win games"

Which to a degree is correct, but not even close to being pure

[pearl haven]

I'm unsure of what the game is honestly

I searched and only got a DOOM game

Since you said Fireballs, I think it might actually be DOOM

lmao

[ebon lintel]

yes it converts doom into a combat simulator
a futuristic combat simulator

On one hand, rhat man with a rifle is a threat now. On the other hand, with your manportable 35mm cannon, you could just shoot dead a cyberdemon.

Introducing:
the ZM66 assault rifle. It is a 50rnd caseless digitally controlled weapon, with adjustable scope, red dot, semi automatic, 3rb, and full auto firemodes. Also has option for a grenade launcher capable of firing grenades with dialable airburst.

[pearl haven]

I don't think BBR want sliding / rolling I think they mentioned someone idk

but like, idk the whole dynamic of BBR is weird constanly bouncing between polar opposite mechanics

[modern sand]

"to punish poor movement" sorry, but players who dont lean spam/crouch spam/prone spam etc. dont want to be killed all because some dude on discord said that it is better to do so

[iron topaz]

@limber vigil tap in

[iron topaz]

Oh why the fuck did i scroll up

[pearl haven]

Division is just an insane case of long TTK in most cases

Most definitely they won't have TTK as such

I imagine only 20-40% increase

[pearl haven]

so you're saying, because some dude wants to run in the open willy nilly they should be okay and remain fine because they don't use intended movement mechanics?

Sounds like a huge flaw to be honest

As someone said above, if you're going to benefit those who're weak, it'll only benefit the strong much more

Wasn't their exact words but it equates

[glass frost]

TTK should stay the same as it is

[iron topaz]

Insane is an understatement

[versed delta]

ttk is fine. with movement getting absolutely obliterated it wont matter how fast or slow you die, the second you get caught moving you'll be dead anyway

[pearl haven]

True lmao

[pearl haven]

Entirely correct honestly, I think if movement is gutted (airborne inertia) it'll be rather simple to kill just about anybody

[versed delta]

The logical fix is to increase hitbox of the player slightly so it's EVEN EASIER to hit the crazy movement. Keep in mind it isn't exactly hard unless you're using no attachment scorpion

[ebon lintel]

to be fair the implementation of it in HD means you need to wrestle your weapon back on target cause you don't pick up where you started aiming
but sliding I uh
could see being a problem lmao
like, hang on

[pearl haven]

I did have a moment a little ago, where you actually can shoot through the gap between peoples legs, ended up shooting through an enemies legs killing another behind them - though that was cool

However for general gameplay, I don't know if bigger hitboxes would benefit the game positively #

Then you have issues with pinging being new - not to mention, dying around walls happens enough already

[harsh swallow]

It's true that the quicker the TTK is, the easier it is to fight with various guns, so I prefer the TTK to be quicker with all guns, but I'm sure I'll get criticism from light players and players who like casual/sport FPS.

[sterile linden]

Its incorrect to assume that high ttk makes a game easier. It makes getting caught off guard less punishing, sure, but it also makes it take much more skill to actually get a kill in the first place.
I think the sheer number of players on the map, and the ability for them to come from every angle, limits the merit of "good positioning"

[versed delta]

I did say slightly. It wouldn't be too detrimental, at least in the proportion I had in mind. Pinging is insanely OP. No way around that now. It is what it is.

[pearl haven]

Well, slightly maybe sure, I can't see how it'd be too much of a problem

[pearl haven]

I mean, I agree with you, higher TTK just feels more natural and smoother with gameplay - in BBR standards I mean

[versed delta]

Depends on how high the ttk is, as exo armor is already incredibly strong. Making it stronger is just absurd.

Imagine flanking more than 1 exo player with a 15 bullet kill.

You'll probably never win against even just two of them unless they have no brain

[pearl haven]

By all means, the amount of players does null the thought down quite a bit, but I imagine the majority of people won't question when they get shot at by 3+ people at once - just in the standard of 1v1 situations, which happen often enough, it would most certainly feel awfully spongy with the lower firerate weapons

[pearl haven]

Average Exo expereince at the game stands now tbh

Mfs just take every bullet you can throw at them and more

[versed delta]

I shoot their legs and if they prone their heads. If there's more than 3 I just don't engage

Who made the decision to give support players the fal? It's actually so dumb.

[pearl haven]

Yeah I mean, I just tend to shoot head always given natural response to wanting to fastest kill on players - even if there is more than 1 I usually throw myself around the corner with no option of turning back, it's why I tend to get so many deaths in my games

But works out nevertheless, still get double/triple the kills

[pearl haven]

true actually

FAL Support is monsterous, surprised there aren't more of them

[versed delta]

Try shooting exo legs. It's just better.

[pearl haven]

But they love their M249's

[versed delta]

Bc most support players are insanely bad. Like, no shade, but their aim is garbage.

[pearl haven]

Yeah it's definitely better, but it's more of a auto-pilot reponse with "shoot head" kinda thing

[versed delta]

It's very rare I find a support who can aim past 30 meters. Then they rage at me on mic when I outgun them lol

This is my support player experience.

Yeah FAL support actually has potential to make support meta, especially with bandage speed buff. You can just walk up to 4-5 people and mag dump them and survive.

[pearl haven]

I can imagine Support becoming meta if TTK is increased more than what it is now honestly

Purely from the fact FAL destroys

[versed delta]

It's already one of the stronger classes. Arguably at the same level as light armor assault mp7

4 grenades, two large ammo boxes (or three I can't remember), exo armor, FAL,

[pearl haven]

Ah I mean, I wouldn't got that far since Assault MP7 is insane, don't think Support quite matches, but it's not too far off

[versed delta]

C4 access

Which is better, being able to quickly flank 10 people or just straight up consistently win 1v5 in head to head

No need for insane routing, ability to post up with an LMG or FAL, extremely strong armor, ability to survive sniper headshots, essentially endless ammo supply,

[sterile linden]

Similar balancing problems will appear with any sweeping ttk change

[pearl haven]

That harshness of such a game like BBR really

Reality vs Expectation type

[modern sand]

That's not what I said, i was saying people who abuse that kind of stuff shouldn't have an advantage over people who use normal movement. just because you are swinging your head left and right doesn't mean you should have more kills than me.

[pearl haven]

How would simply swinging ones head back and forth result in more kills though?

I'd imagine in turn they'd survive longer

but it doesn't directly impact kills at all

I would argue a player that uses such movement may also have the ability to rush backlines and use C4 or their gun to spray enemies down, but that is very much possible without such movement

[modern sand]

well they are usually shooting at you when they are doing it so if they don't die then it usually results in one more kill for each time they do it

[pearl haven]

so you're saying someone who evades death by fairly slim odds, and managed to kill 1 or 2 more players in that life just auto-mean, more kills than you?

If your playstyle isn't effective with killing the enemy team, why would you do that

Many people aren't capable of doing said movements and still manage to pop off kills wise, hell, I got shit movement, whenever I try wiggle my mouse around I just die straight away

but I still manage to kill 1 or 2 anyway, because it's not all about "wiggle mouse = more kills"

[keen escarp]

My suggestion to improve ttk and make it less frustrating and more rewarding for the player's skill:

• Reducing all damage to arms and legs by half;
• Reducing body damage taken by 10% for all armor;
• Reduce the size of the model's head a little and increase the damage to the head (headshots need to be more valued);

[late prairie]

headshots are already very much valued (best seen with the as val, ak74, p90, deagle, rsh and probably multiple other guns which greatly benefit them)

deagle and rsh become a 1sk
ak and as val only need 1 headshot to then only take 2 more shots to kill (on flesh)
the p90 just gets better value out of its ammo
and so on...

[cold pasture]

depends on exo head or exo chest I suppose

exo head makes more sense, exo chest is more easily avoided by more veteran players (AKA shoot arms or legs)

[cold pasture]

to my knowledge the evo has fastest body shot TTK at 0.15
Groza & fal at 0.092 for full automatic fastest TTK

[keen escarp]

Yes, I believe that headshot has "ok" damage, but my point is that the game needs to reward those who aim faster and more accurately and not a submachine spray in the leg killing in half a second or less.

[late prairie]

it already rewards aim you goober

and no spraying with an smg won't help you much

[keen escarp]

why insult dude ? wtf

[late prairie]

goober is not even a proper insult lmao

but my usage of it should probably make you wonder
"wait was my take a bit dumb?"
yes, yes it was

if you just spray with any f/a weapon you're gonna lose unless you fight against someone who's braindead

[keen escarp]

You probably play submachine and were bothered by the "spray in the leg" example, replace SMG with any other weapon and calm down.

[late prairie]

i play pdw and carbine actually ;D
and no, no one sprays the legs unless we're talking heavy armored support lmao

if aim doesn't matter you would probably be the best player ever am i right

oh i do play smg every once in a while, vector (which slaps you on the nuts if you just spray btw), scoop (same thing as vector but even more punishing), mp5 because it's funny and you can just laser peoples heads or legs - which you have to aim for - and pp19 sometimes because it's just has no recoil to speak of

but hey, lmgs should obviously be meta with their ability to just aim for you

[keen escarp]

No, I'm just a casual BB player, relax

[late prairie]

ok
you still haven't proven your point of "smg just sprays at your legs and wins regardless"
come on answer, or do you see how wrong you are and don't want to admit it

[keen escarp]

I cited the example of shooting with smg at the legs because it's something stupid that no one who has a bit of an understanding of fps would do on purpose. And I used this as a way to argue the point I was making about TTK, that the ttk in this game is so fast that you don't need to waste time trying to aim for the head, anywhere it will kill you in half a second. And how does a game deal with this? You can take the example of CS GO, which forces the player to only aim for the head, because it deals less damage to the body and 50% to the legs and arms... making ttk make sense and rewarding those who play well.
(I gave the example of CS GO, but this can apply to almost all fps except Apex Legends).

[errant crane]

shooting smgs at legs is a legitimate strategy in more realistic games like tarkov. it is fine as a mechanic.

boosting headshot multipliers would really not do much except buff dmrs.

[long flax]

you guys should kiss if you like eachother so much

[brittle shard]

I'm all for reducing DMR's damage to the body and boosting HS on DMR.

[wet tiger]

God please

People spam too much with DMRs when they're literally best for taking those headshots quickly, not as a spam cannon

[rough cliff]

they kill slower than basically every other weapon other than smgs beyond 80 meters.

[shrewd fiber]

Isn't that literally not true

Do you mean within?

[rough cliff]

the difference is like .4 seconds

and still under .2 seconds ttk

that is far faster than the majority of people can react. f1 drivers react to light at that speed.

[shrewd fiber]

That's at the assumption you hit every bullet I feel like

You fire dmrs at range a little more deliberately I feel like. Past 60 meters I'm pretty sure you can start out performing stuff

[rough cliff]

60 meters is still beyond the SMGs preferred range, so I'll give that to you. as for DMRs most range can be countered by AR damage. Getting the drop on someone may secure the kill but at that point spraying them down with an AR would likely do the same.

[fallen ravine]

You don’t truly outperform ARs in raw ttk until you start getting over ~150m

There are multiple ARs with recoil like the DMRs but also better ttk, the advantage DMRs have there is single shot damage and damage dropoff

[shrewd fiber]

Hrm ok

[jagged plinth]

What is blud waffling about

[hazy copper]

Longer TTK = Weapons with Mor personality

[fallen ravine]

Why would that be the case?

[rough cliff]

I think the logic is that with a longer ttk you have more space for weapons to have their own niche.

[fallen ravine]

I would think that depends on the ratio between fast and slow ttk guns

Rather than the average value of them

[rough cliff]

yes, that is what a range is.

[fallen ravine]

I’m wondering what the reason for stating that is

My point was a proposed contradiction of the point you assumed

[rough cliff]

you litearlly agreed with what I said you maroon.

[fallen ravine]

You assumed the point that “with a longer ttk you have more space for weapons to have their own niche”, which I specifically disagreed with

I don’t know if you believe in the point you assumed, but that is what I was addressing

[rough cliff]

you said it depends on slow and fast ttk weapons. which is what a fucking range is

I said it allowed specific niches for weapons, which a much larger ttk would technically allow while using an average engagement distance.

[fallen ravine]

Yes, but why does that matter? You brought it up like it does

The person who brought it up never mentioned ranges or ratios, they just said “longer ttk”, which I interpret in the context of this thread as “longer average ttk”

[fallen ravine]

Why would this concept change the depth of niches for weapons?

[rough cliff]

do you know what identity and niche means or are you just playing stupid?

[fallen ravine]

I don’t know what logic you’re trying to convey, so I’m asking you.

[rough cliff]

because right now nearly every weapon is below .2 seconds ttk.

meaning that weapons don't really have niches they all kill about the same rate outside of TAS stats.

[fallen ravine]

That is not only false, but doesn’t answer the question

(In response to the first of those two messages)

[rough cliff]

literally tested with every weapon.

the majority are under .2

the rest are under .25

[fallen ravine]

They can kill at very different rates compared to each other. 0.2 -> 0.25 for example is a big difference

[rough cliff]

barring bolts because of their nature

[rough cliff]

.250 is the average human reaction time

[fallen ravine]

Are you talking about pure headshot ttk?

For gamers I think it’s a bit faster, but yes

[rough cliff]

.2 is professional racer reaction time

most guns are under that already.

[fallen ravine]

Almost everyone also has like 20% or lower accuracy in their stats page

[rough cliff]

ok, so?

[fallen ravine]

Just about every ttk sheet takes it as 100%

[rough cliff]

player accuracy is not generally taken into account

[fallen ravine]

Mmhm, which means TTKs in practice will usually be slower than what you claim

[rough cliff]

ah yes, but guess what

thats now how ttk is calculated

ever

because there are so many players with differing playstyles that it would skew results a fuckton.

anyway

back to your orgional stupidity

what you said, creates a range of "ttk"s for the variosu weapons that is less compressed than it is now.

which is the logic behind the original post you are questioning.

[fallen ravine]

TTK is what happens in game, how it might be calculated for a spreadsheet isn’t too relevant

[rough cliff]

yeah if that's how things are done the vector would never have changed.

there is a reason player performance is not taken into account.

[fallen ravine]

Because it’s impossible to do so accurately without data we lack

[rough cliff]

people have already tested it out with body shots, only headshots, the various armors.

the worst ttk possible is an smg at 100 meters plus shooting exo at .3 seconds

.324 I think was the actual count.

[fallen ravine]

Ok that’s just wrong

[rough cliff]

everything you are trying to say to refute has already been tested over and over.

but of course, you would never believe it.

you also cannot seem to fathom what a mathimatical range is.

[fallen ravine]

I’m refuting the concept that raising ttk would significantly change the niches a gun can specialise into

Not sure what you mean by “tested” for that

[fallen ravine]

PP-19 at full damage dropoff with 100% accuracy has a theoretical maximum ttk of 2400ms versus exo armour (didn’t need to work that out but 324 is just so blatantly too low)

[fallen ravine]

God you’re annoying

I have gathered what your argument is by now but it’s hard to give any decent response when you’re just coming out with things like this

I would view your argument as correct if ttk played a far lower role in determining the outcome of a fight than it does currently. The difference between an ultimax and a FAL is vast.

[rough cliff]

not really lol

all the guns are very close to one another.

there is no "magic" gun that is the sure fire choice anymore

hasn't been for a while.

ultimax has a slow draw speed and movement, that's about its only real downsides.

fal is slightly above average, but again most of the time the ttk is going to feel exactly the same because you will not physically be able to react to it unless they miss.

[fallen ravine]

Hmm. There is a real temptation to use the “have you even played the game” card on this one

[rough cliff]

yeah, which is how I know this bud.

you apperently haven't though, that's pretty telling.

[fallen ravine]

There is no objective way to prove or disprove such statements. So I will just say (as someone who has the FAL and ultimax as my two most used guns) that that doesn’t reflect my experience whatsoever

[fallen ravine]

400 hours should be enough to make informed claims about the gameplay I think

[rough cliff]

yeah how long ago you get those hours?

Like I said there is hardly a "best" weapon that is magically better than every other weapon in the game anymore.

ultimax is an lmg with its own problems because support weapons got the short end of the stick.

but damage and accuracy wise its on par with the fal.

[fallen ravine]

I’ve played semi-consistently since game launch. Had about 100 hours in beta tests before that

[rough cliff]

drawspeed and movement is what kills it, and its not liek the fal is all to good on that part either.

[fallen ravine]

Not disagreeing with that.

[rough cliff]

ok good for you, then you must simply be blind. rather I hope its just you not paying attention.

[fallen ravine]

Accuracy?

You’re comparing the second highest recoil gun in the game with the lowest recoil primary

Same can be said for damage

[rough cliff]

you're the one comparing them bud

you took an lmg and a BR and tried to be "smart"

[fallen ravine]

You literally compared them right here

And in that case comparing as in suggesting the same

[rough cliff]

you brought them up, and I talked about exactly two stats

[fallen ravine]

You are the only person I think I’ve seen in this discord so far who thinks ttk doesn’t matter. Which isn’t inherently bad for you but it seems weird.

[fallen ravine]

Because they’re polar opposites on the topic of TTK, in the “TTK discussion” thread

In an argument that revolved around the importance of TTK

[rough cliff]

yeah sure, basically equal on the ttk board, but polar opposite

you need to head back to school, these basic concepts are really getting to you.

[fallen ravine]

Right on the opposite ends. I know what you’re actually talking about but I struggle to view this argument as anything but wilful ignorance

Taking ~64% longer to kill someone makes a difference.

You can claim it’s not a major difference if you like but to pretend it doesn’t matter is unreasonable

[rough cliff]

unless you happen to be in the top percentile of humanity, you will not see any difference.

[jagged plinth]

You don't need to be Einstein to feel the differences in TTK

[fallen ravine]

Reaction speed != rate at which we can perceive changes in the information presented. That’s a delay in one case and not in the other

I can totally see a 127ms difference, even if I can’t react to it within its duration

And the game doesn’t care about if the enemy has reacted or not, they’re dead / not dead either way

Next thing you’ll be telling me is that humans can’t perceive over 8 fps… :)

Having a lower ttk gives the enemy more leniency. Even if it’s still too fast to reasonably respond to on its own, they might have begun their response much earlier, or you might not hit every shot

⠀
The only case in which TTK definitively does not matter is one where they are only aware of your presence by the time you’re already firing, you’re using a fast ttk weapon, you’re hitting all your shots and you’re close enough for bullet velocity to not matter

I’m sure anyone who’s played any shooters will understand why this is not always the case.

[rough cliff]

ok wow, lots of words to say "you can see your death happening"

whoop-de-doo

still can't do shit about it.

unless they miss.

[jagged plinth]

"I can't read, therefore you're wrong"

[fallen ravine]

that’s a funny response ngl

[rough cliff]

literally says see, but not react

[fallen ravine]

Did you not read the part about how people don’t begin reacting to you the instant they take damage?

[rough cliff]

as I said, ttk is close enough it changes nothing.

[jagged plinth]

He gave a good explanation and good examples

If you can't see that, that's a you problem

[rough cliff]

yeah lets uhh, make ttk start when you shoot, include bullet time, and make the enemy not only see you but your bullets come for them

[fallen ravine]

Indeed two players may begin firing at the same time. If they’re hitting their shots, TTK is now the only thing that matters, yipee

[rough cliff]

surely this will let us calculate better ttk

[fallen ravine]

TTK isn’t a full on simulation of the entire fight. It just is one metric by which we can define a gun

I’d love to be able to account for everything and make a truly objective universal comparison of all guns, but this cannot be done.

[rough cliff]

keep in mind this all started because you were stupid and misinterpreted two statements, agreed with those statements, then decided to rant.

[fallen ravine]

I asked for elaboration on several of your statements. I suspected what relevant logic were trying to put forward at the start but you didn’t really confirm it until much later

Building arguments on assumptions about the opposition is a mistake I’ve made a lot of times and it usually makes arguments drag on for ages because of miscommunication, but here it might have been the opposite

⠀
I’m pretty confident by now that your stance could be fairly accurately be described with “if the enemy has their back to you, ttk is basically negligible”, which is true but not universally applicable