Don't scale visual recoil with magnification

[obtuse pine]

Talking about med scopes with other players, a common sentiment I have found is that med scopes in BBR feel extremely sensitive to recoil compared to other FPS games. It seems like BBR recoil represents a displacement of the gun model itself, which means that the visual jump the player perceives is massively increased with higher magnification scopes.

While I of course don't know for sure what the specific workings of recoil in this and other games is, my intuition is that other games model recoil as a displacement of the player's viewport such that the end result is independent of scope magnification.

I understand that this would be a non-trivial buff to medium scopes for auto weapons, but if we consider that med scopes do apply some direct stats debuffs and still mean that the gun is no longer optimal for use in CQC, I think it would be largely perceived as a nice quality of life change that gives players more freedom in the loadouts they can effectively use.

[Post title is a question as I don't strongly favor either option, just wondering what people's opinions are on the matter]

[smoky dune]

So, you're suggesting that the player's camera should move, but NOT the gun model?

[obtuse pine]

Nah, the gun model should follow along. But the displacement would be calculated from whatever the player's current magnification is. So if you can imagine the screen extending beyond your physical display, recoil that causes you to "scroll up" by say 20 pixels, will always be 20 pixels regardless of your zoom level.

[potent meadow]

I agree with this

[obtuse pine]

Please mark the check so we can tally the votes :3

[potent meadow]

I couldn't :)

for some reason :)

[turbid scarab]

I think this would make medium range scopes simply overpowered. They are fine as they are, but imagine putting a 4x on a FAL and being able to shoot at long range with no issue (which seems to be how this would go)

practical combat ranges would increase a lot which I'm not much of a fan of, as you would be less likely to see your attackers.

[lean ginkgo]

it's already bad with a 1x on f/a...

[turbid scarab]

with a 1x it isn't that impactful imo - but this would still be literally a quarter of it

I don't have any games I play that I can really fairly compare BBR to, but I think most of them aren't nearly so sensitive to simply extending the ranges of guns with scopes if that is what they do

[obtuse pine]

No, it would just be the same instead of being 4x what you get at 1x. And consider that now this hits the overall ADS time plus some other stats I can't recall. I do agree it would make it a pretty scary weapon across a wider range though. But then that can be tweaked in other ways, as e.g. it's current dropoff seems too long for how unlikely it is to be used in such situations.

[turbid scarab]

the same would be 4x less

it would mean that at 4x the range the recoil would be no harder to control

[obtuse pine]

In "physical in-game displacement" yeah, but that's not what matters to the player. Magnified recoil translates into more jarring movement on-screen and more mouse displacement required.

[obtuse pine]

In principle, yes. Although some sort of weighing might be considered to make it scale with magnification but not in a 1-to-1 ratio.

[turbid scarab]

it isn't magnified, you are just zoomed into it. Your suggestion requires actively scaling down the gun's recoil as it zooms in.
If you don't like the extra mouse movement that comes with it, you can turn up the sensitivity for those scopes in settings and cancel it out.

If you do that then literally the only impact of using one of those scopes would be that you are zoomed in, as it would not affect how you control recoil

[obtuse pine]

Yes, you can, which should further drive the point that it end ups mostly being a quality of life thing if you can just tweak it away.

I do wonder how other FPS games handle this because it feels like whatever they do is very different

[turbid scarab]

a lot of games don't have customisable scopes, though tbh it wouldn't be that bad if canted/topsights didn't exist here

since you can switch between 1x and 4x on a dime it would be overpowered, but having better range at the cost of limited FOV would be a more ok trade if you could not.

[obtuse pine]

I definitely agree canted sights combined with this change would offer "too much" versatility. Some adjustment might be needed there on the switch speed or "general" ADS time to balance it out.

[smoky dune]

@obtuse pine the title of this could be renamed to be easier to understand without all the explanation. Something like "don't scale visual recoil with magnification" or "lessen visual recoil"

[obtuse pine]

Don't scale visual recoil with magnification

[obtuse pine]

Good idea, thanks

[turbid scarab]

I think “maintain perceived recoil across magnifications” would be more accurate? Though, that might be a little misleading since you never said it had to be 1:1

[opal holly]

That’s already easy to shoot full auto at 50-100 m distances. Imagine having same capabilities with ACOG

Anyway, there’s no real need in medium range optics for any weapon but DMR/Sniper rifle + G3. All weapons damage fall flat after 200m, most weapons fall even closer

x1 is plenty for the job

[obtuse pine]

I agree with you, which is why I don't feel it would change much in terms of actual balance, would just be a nice thing for players who prefer meds for some reason

(could be that it just looks cool or e.g. in my case I sometimes just have my small laptop screen to play on)

[opal holly]

Nah, it just make all DMRs OP

Imagine full auto G3 with x4

That’s gonna be meta for medium-long range fights

[obtuse pine]

I agree, but then that's one or two specific cases that could be balanced around the change right?

[opal holly]

The thing is: before release devs decided to make most guns unusable past 200m. The consequences of that - all nerfs aka shitstorm around snipers

You suggestion is a game changer. It would have massive consequences

[hearty lynx]

Snipers suffer

[opal holly]

I don’t really want to know how do they look like

[opal holly]

I feel you pain brother

[obtuse pine]

I like the sound of that 😎

But more seriously, the dropoff and bullet travel time would still make shots at those ranges more of a gamble

It might even help snipers out by increasing the amount of overconfident people who think they can outgun you :P

(it's really funny watching a support emptying half a clip in my general direction at like 300m while I calmly line up my shot)

[opal holly]

That wouldn’t be that funny anymore if you suggestion hit the game somehow

He most likely beam you out of existence. Even with minimal damage

[obtuse pine]

Hmm you know this could be a tactical offering in exchange for getting rid of those silly bullet trails

So let people have an actual fighting chance but at least make them go through the trouble of finding where you are

[vernal crown]

The medium scopes do simply bounce around too much

but if they were more accurate we'd get sniped from far away even more

but also I want them to be more accurate lmao

[potent meadow]

filthy stinky milsimmers go back to arma

L

[obtuse pine]

Alright give me those checks bby 🤑

[vernal crown]

I'm not a milsimmer!

https://tenor.com/view/crying-sad-emoji-gif-22168442

I LIKE FUN

[plain ruin]

I cant vote no because he blocked me :-(

This would be an unbelievable buff to ranged weapons, recoil is one of the main ways range is balanced in this game.

[vernal crown]

I think it's less "make the recoil better" and more "make the visual recoil less"

aka not the real recoil, but the way the gun jumps around and stuff

[plain ruin]

I dont think thats what this post means. Regardless, how would that even be implemented?

[vernal crown]

Here's a poor example of what I think it means. Visual recoil means the way the reticles jump around, but the part the bullets come out of isn't lined up with it

Which technically isn't very realistic 🤓

I think it would mean just lining those up better

[turbid scarab]

Oh yeah, that is a thing isn’t it

I remember some example from a while ago when people showed that could happen

The reticule should always point towards the aimpoint

[wispy brook]

I'd love being able to use Medium Sights with ARs but... recoil is too bad

[chrome onyx]

already doing it

[opal holly]

They bounce kinda OK and in realistic way. It's just recoil values are too high in a first place. IRL guns have less recoil

[opal holly]

I mean you can't hit shit past 200 full auto x4

[chrome onyx]

that is true but im still using medium scope cuz i cant use red dot

skill issue with red dot

[chrome onyx]

yeah i think this is the thing where people ive seen in #game-bugs think

[opal holly]

IDK why PP19 have less recoil than SCAR H. It should be less, because PP19 is a simple blowback, while SCAR H is gas operated lock-breach

[chrome onyx]

they hit something on that reticle whent he bullets doesnt actually hit there

[opal holly]

Funny enough you'd get better results shooting full auto with x2 past 200

[chrome onyx]

i mean the different bullet type should be considered

if you are talking about recoil

scarh is what

308?

[opal holly]

308

[chrome onyx]

pp19 what 9mm?

[opal holly]

yep

[chrome onyx]

difference in power right there

lmao

scarh should have bigger recoil

[opal holly]

that's kinda funny, because most felt recoil goes from gun cycling, not bullet itself

Blowback inherently have more recoil, than gas operated systems. 5.56 guns for example have WAY less recoil than 9mm PCC.

[chrome onyx]

idk im checking people at shooting range on like youtube right now i can see people feeling the kicked on scar h than pp19

[opal holly]

308 guns are heavy guns in general, that easily compensate for more energy in cartrige

[obtuse pine]

If you agree that they bounce too much for med scopes, but fine for shorts, then probably tweaking the scaling is the better approach instead of buffing recoil across the board no?

[opal holly]

well, you kinda right

[potent meadow]

The Scar H is actually known as one of the softest shooting 308s out there