Squad spawning timer depending on enemies near them and distance to them.

[onyx solstice]

can you do this with my dad so one can find the milk, the other can find the ciggs, and the third can be in my life?

[clever moat]

fair to blame frontline spawns if oki didn't rework squad spawns to allegedly stop in-combat spawns. Now I spawn into active bullet storms more than ever.

[clever moat]

you need help bro

call him he misses you

[faint hamlet]

there was a better version of it for a brief while but people complained they couldnt spawn

[clever moat]

lame

[faint hamlet]

he prly should just up the spawn restriction range back to the 25m or w/e it was

[clever moat]

or do a spawn offset like other games allegedly do

instead we gonna get a mouse button click and hold simulator

[dire hamlet]

seriously it's fun for them but hooooly shit way to make my kills feel even more useless

[pearl musk]

do both. Spawning into a sniper shot meant for someone else sucks lol

[charred fossil]

Offset? wdym

@clever moat*

[pearl musk]

Spawn near but not on top of

[clever moat]

i've seen others say something like battlefield spawns players well behind the target squad member or something like that

[charred fossil]

Oh yeah definitely

Offset is a must imo

[dapper maple]

Ok, so what are we holding in that spot exactly?

[dire hamlet]

squad spawn and rope that's right next to C

flank route p much

[pearl musk]

Got to go. Good luck solving this everyone

[dapper maple]

because not only does the rock ridge not favor you peeking outward, you're also peeking into someone on the rocks to the far left

[charred fossil]

Thanks for the good discussion Disciple, cheers

[faint hamlet]

people would hate it but i wouldnt mind if sniper shots engaged into combat at longer ranges to stop that very thing XD as im playing right now it just happened where i literally couldnt kill a squad of 8 because they kept spawning

[devout shore]

What is this clip supposed to show?

[onyx solstice]

so if some one gets hit with a sniper shot it turns off their squad spawn for a little longer? I vibe with it

[swift flax]

is that not a feel good moment that there are that many players to shoot at in general tho?

[dapper maple]

Even in the first clip you killing those players wouldn't change much, you didn't fully clear the steps before you hopped down. You just assumed you were clear behind you and hopped down.

[swift flax]

with the spawn system theres gonna be less of those moments

[dire hamlet]

it's a bad clip but I was pretty much spamming that squad spawn to try and hold off the flank route onto C, any 3 kills come back actual seconds later so it was just sisyphus

[dapper maple]

I'm not doing a mini-coach thing, but i'm just saying that majority of that Is player fault

[dire hamlet]

Yea I coulda played better and it was a losing fight either way

[devout shore]

I dont think the proposed spawning change would have made that fight any better

[dire hamlet]

Yea, In-combat mechanics would improve that

[dapper maple]

Nah, because had you been alive still they wouldn't have been able to spawn anyways

p sure you were close enough to the dude on the stairs

that I could be wrong about though, range in this game is funky

[dire hamlet]

I really don't understand how in combat works

bc sometimes I'll look away or take cover and 2 spawn

or my teamate will be in the middle of nowhere and I can't spawn

[clever moat]

or you spawn into your already dead teammate and the rest of the bullets that were meant for them

[dire hamlet]

revives and static spawn beacons still helps with density my frustration is moreso that we have the equivalent of

[dapper maple]

AND THIS IS MY POINT LOL, not calling you bad or anything to that effect but a lot of it is player sided. I'm not saying people have to be sweat lords but a bit of mindful and a bit of "Is this a good play?" makes a world of difference on how you percieve a game

[devout shore]

It used to work pretty well but then an update changed it

[dapper maple]

even you in retrospect could say that you could have played it a smide slower and been more mindful

[clever moat]

moo says people complained

[devout shore]

about what

[dire hamlet]

I mean that's a larger problem with getting a squad to cooperate

[clever moat]

the old, better working spawn lock out

[dire hamlet]

I had a squad spawn, a defence marker, an attack objective marker, asking people to spawn and I got one recon on me

what's the point of Squad lead?

but w/e, I don't have an issue with that bc I can just play with a premade

[clever moat]

to not drop rally points when you ask

[dire hamlet]

dropped, left undefended

people just do not care

[dapper maple]

Sometimes you just gotta be "him"

[dire hamlet]

way I see it, I'm supposed to lose that fight, but still slow them down/ make their push worse

with a 10 second respawn next to point, I lose the fight, but I did nothing

[clever moat]

or make them back off to be able to spawn in

[dire hamlet]

only way to truly "win" is to pull off a full squad wipe within 10 seconds

[dapper maple]

And again, that's part of my point of it being players and not the game's systems. People need to be more aggressive when it comes to controlling their space

[dire hamlet]

well you can't fix players

[devout shore]

#1180246958347145257 message

[dapper maple]

nope, but you can give them the tools or feed ideas

[dire hamlet]

I'd rather it be too strong like before than too weak like now

[dapper maple]

Again, I don't like it because I prefer the map as is now but a mini-map isn't a awful idea to help people when they notice NO ONE is around them in a certain area

[near sluice]

That's how it is till you get better at the game. Spawn, die, spawn, die. Survivability is part of the learning curve.

[dapper maple]

and also hopefully the audio rework helps

[wet yarrow]

there should be a risk indicator that someones looking near them or is near them when spawning, like green/amber/red

[clever moat]

that indicator will be how long you have to hold the space bar

with this thread change

[wet yarrow]

id rather just know how risky and not hold it down for ages

[dapper maple]

^ honestly

If the issue people have is spawning into death, then give em a danger indicator when there was a enemy within range in the last 2 seconds or something

so you know if you hit that button your head better be on a swivel

[grim tiger]

I mean they do know that spawning there can get them killed they do it anyways and blame system

[dapper maple]

End of the day the "You choose what buttons you press" is a very applicable statement imo

[faint hamlet]

imagine opening your map seeing this and thinking people being able to spawn on their squad for free isnt the issue

[dapper maple]

Like I also feel that way when I spawn in and die, but I also have to remember it was my dumb ass spamming spacebar

[wet yarrow]

the system is currently meant to not let you spawn when the person is being watched or shot, but it doesent work quite frequently

[clever moat]

when the person that designed the system says it shouldn't let you spawn into immediate danger, why can't we blame it?

[charred fossil]

I think the spawning can be goofy at times, but for this change, I think I'd prefer this honestly, yeah

[strange lily]

The problem isn’t really with spawning into death it’s that current squad spawning is very cheap to do making a lot of game features practically irrelevant. Spawn deaths are just the symptom of that

[charred fossil]

I don't disagree at all... But I don't think spawn timers are the solution on this front, so i'm more in favor of adding more info about danger on spawn locations, and working on those issues with other changes

[dapper maple]

Counter point:

[charred fossil]

Or at least no spawn timers like have been propsed. I like a lot of the ideas from HLL that Disciple mentioned earlier

[dapper maple]

You can ride this baby for miles I promise

[onyx solstice]

smokes are underappreciated

[strange lily]

what is danger indicator supposed to do? it doesn’t prevent you from abusing it

[dapper maple]

No one uses them

then bitches about frontlines

[charred fossil]

It doesn't that's what i'm saying - there should be a seperate thread imo for the spawninf issues

[dapper maple]

it makes me ANGY man

[clever moat]

https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1180246958347145257

[onyx solstice]

i double up, smokes in throwables and smoke launcher

[charred fossil]

I really think more fundamental changes need to come into play to fix it

ueah probably the thread cheddar mentioned

[strange lily]

i mean there is a spawn mechanics thread in feedback

[charred fossil]

That too

[clever moat]

smokes mad good

[charred fossil]

All of the above

[dire hamlet]

hell this helps to highlight the issue

[clever moat]

smoke launcher is great

[onyx solstice]

i use the smoke launcher to put smoke ontop of snipers

i love it

[dire hamlet]

if you can keep up the frontline density of players, why would you push?>

there's no sense of tide turning

[charred fossil]

But honestly, the tedium of having a spawn timer doesn't fix someone sitting a few feet away, crouching in a bush, and becominf a mobile spawn beacon

[onyx solstice]

if you snipe me expect 2-3 smoke grenades inbound

[dapper maple]

Because you just clog the drain

Nothing happens until some sweat swoops in and folds like 15 of them

[dire hamlet]

this is a clogged drain

[dire hamlet]

exactly

[charred fossil]

it alleviates it but doesn't address the real cause,

[dire hamlet]

you need one person to wipe squads just to get a foothold

not piece by piece

[dapper maple]

And my argument is it doesn't even have to be a need lol

[onyx solstice]

How about ~wearable spawn beacon~ now everyone can spawn on you to their hearts content. but you get 1 less equipment and now look like a dork with your large antennae and incessant static

[faint hamlet]

look at any map these days and you will NEVER see a constant stream of players regardless of how many people die vehicles only getting used by one dude then his entire squad falls out of his pockets

[faint hamlet]

just play recon

[onyx solstice]

that sounds helpful to my team though

this isn't a team game its a CQC run and gun /s

[devout shore]

Is a constant strem of players desireable?

[faint hamlet]

yes that isnt whats happening

[onyx solstice]

but for real. if squad spawning was removed as it is, and a radio backpack (mobile spawn beacon) was added that way players could not only choose if they are able to be spawned on but would have to make a loadout choice to enable it

put it in the C4 slot 🙃

[devout shore]

Why is it desireable?

[dapper maple]

People play way to safe to do nothing in this game i'm ngl

[devout shore]

That's stupid, all that serves to do is remove elements of soloplay

[onyx solstice]

if you want to play solo then dont wear the backpack?

[devout shore]

Then I cant spawn on someone if they dont have it equipped

[dapper maple]

But then the issue moo posts becomes worse

because people just camp more

[devout shore]

there is literally no reason for someone to lose c4 in exchange for the backpack if they want to play solo

[dapper maple]

and teams hold flags longer

which results in more losses since you have to run from your nearest capped flag

[onyx solstice]

they should just let players play without a squad so we can kick the "i play solo" players into purgatory and they will stay there

[dapper maple]

so then it becomes a race to see who contests the backcap faster if people don't want to run the bag

[devout shore]

This game has always been designed around facilitating solo play as well as team play. There is no reason to prevent players from playing how they want. Stop trying to control how I play the game, it doesnt even effect you.

[onyx solstice]

I'm not? you seem to have some over reaction issues

[dapper maple]

Yeah I was gonna say i'm pretty sure Oki literally said he wants both playstyles to be viable

[devout shore]

You are.

[charred fossil]

i mean i'm fairly certain it's leaning more towards co-op

just pub friendly

[dire hamlet]

I'll debate that one, with good transport vehicles and player skill, it should be even easier to break up these campy groups

[onyx solstice]

How so? I said to allow people who play solo to be allowed to play outside a squad

thats literally the opposite lmao. 🤡

[dapper maple]

that's implying you have more than one or two of those on each team...

[devout shore]

If thats what you meant by "purgatory" then whatever

[green viper]

I don't think you should be that drastic but I don't hesitate to yeet funny snipers that live on the edge of the map out of the squad usually with 0 regret

[devout shore]

As long as it doesnt effect my playstyle im all for it

[dire hamlet]

you have like 12 humvees one of them is bound to bring a decent squad onto an objective

[onyx solstice]

yeah, I call the place when you aren't in a squad and cant choose a class "purgatory" i should have made that more clear. my bad

[dire hamlet]

or in dom, one good spawn beacon

[dapper maple]

ahaha...

[devout shore]

I wouldnt have an issue with letting players play outside of a squad but there would have to be something to replace squad spawning

[onyx solstice]

This is what I do. if I'm squad leader I want a squad who at least sticks in the same general area. If I have "attack b" marked and i see some one making tea over at E ill just kick them

[dire hamlet]

the point is, it's the spawning on players piece that leads to it just being frustrating

you can kill a spawn beacon, a heli, whatever way easier than a full squad

find a replacement sure, but that shouldn't be impossible to do

[faint hamlet]

nothing should lmao if you wanna lone wolf you lone wolf not do the team thing when its convenient

[clever moat]

we need a group of 50 lone players on each map with no squad leader

[dapper maple]

So I shoudn't help with as push after I free up a frontline for my team? My bad then.

[green viper]

I mean I don't mind people running whereever they want cos as long as they're near the objective or the fight they contribute with both pressure and acting as a spawn point, map edge dwellers usually don't do anything but restrict your spawn options

[onyx solstice]

you mean their 4 - 0 score after an entire match wasn't helping?

[pulsar cargo]

Have solo players only spawnable on radios and objectives, snipers wanna piss off cool, solos wanna rush the obj on their own cool. They are solo they should be apart of the whole team but just not in a squad. And those in a squad can team respawn, radios or objv. Seems sence able

[green viper]

[devout shore]

If nothing replaces squad spawning im just gonna join a squad and play solo anyway, just like how it works right now.

[dapper maple]

Especially if my squad is doing the shit most do now where they just sit in a building off site and do nothing

[dire hamlet]

the constant pressure is just too much

the middle class won't admit or accept it but having constant action leads to constant frustration

[onyx solstice]

I think this is valid. if the squad leader cares they can kick you and you can try another squad. i've been in enough squads where everyones running solo that it isn't restrictive i dont' think

[dire hamlet]

add some room to breathe

[green viper]

Maybe you could use something like a gadget that's only usable when outside the squad acting as a one time respawn beacon type stuff so you can play your solo sniper dream at the low low cost of one gadget, not like you'd need it anyways, just a random idea though

[dire hamlet]

objective spacing failed to do this

for conq and invasion just allow people to spawn on friendly vehicles

[green viper]

Maybe the defending side should be able to spawn on their contested point, just saying

[dire hamlet]

No need for squad spawn, vehicles matter more and transports like the APC, boat, blackhawk become waaaaaaaaay more of a menace

[onyx solstice]

this. Even if its around the perimeter of it

[dapper maple]

Then we'd have a issue we used to have where it was impossible to un-constest a point

the flag areas used to be bigger mind you

[green viper]

Maybe with some restrictions like a capped spawn rate or something

That needs to be polished further ofc

[onyx solstice]

I wonder what the thinking is behind not making flag capping whoever has the majority on point

[dapper maple]

but people used to rat so much and players never full cleared sites Oki had to nerf the radius of a lot of them

[dapper maple]

It makes sense, enemies are still on the flag. If it wasn't the cause you could have people spawn camping flag spawns

[green viper]

Maybe if someone stays inside enemy point for too long and contesting it by ratting they should be visible on the map idk

[dapper maple]

so you couldn't take it back anyways

[dire hamlet]

literally tho this is still an issue but now people stay 1m from an obj instead

[green viper]

Topic too complex but yeeting dumb ideas never hurts, maybe someone can think of something better

[onyx solstice]

So many times me and many others are running around a point looking for that 1 enemy hiding in a bush contesting a point lmao

[dapper maple]

Nah, then that makes going for flags worthless because people will literally just use the map for a free UAV on flags

[dire hamlet]

people becoming their own silent mobile squad beacon

[green viper]

The one dude that's just chilling on the point and scratching their ass is just dumb, there needs to be more ways to counterplay that

[clever moat]

improve nukes

[dapper maple]

Mine has always been blowing the site to the fucking dirt, but people rather keep cover they're not using I guess

[green viper]

Give heartbeat sensor gadget

[dapper maple]

And I also don't feel like coming back 5 times to blow up a building because I run out of C4

[onyx solstice]

do we know if oki has said no to Squad leaders having a UAV type of thing for squad points? Not a lingering one. but one that would ping an area one time and the dots would disappear after 4 seconds

idea for another thread. I'm just thinking of how to counter people hiding on points

[strange lily]

actually would be pretty cool ngl

[main jacinth]

I like how way more people are up voting in here and not in the actual #dev-wip message

[green viper]

People see funny blue link

People click

[honest silo]

I'm assuming thats why he linked it to here

yeah ^^

[green viper]

Also cos those who go into suggestions are more likely to vote because they went here for a reason

[main jacinth]

tbh its hard to tell where to vote for stuff because sometimes they ask in the update channel to vote

and other times they dont

and they will link the suggestion both times

[quick wagon]

l feel like there should a middle ground and not instant from safe to 5 sec close to enemies. 5 takes too long and instant could causa insta cap flanks to points. so those numbers gotta be adjusted. not instant and 5 if this is pushed

[wet yarrow]

the way you can tell its risky shouldnt be by a timer, its hard to know what the timer means compared to a big text saying risky spawn or something

[green viper]

I have a hard time believing this feature would work properly considering we still have spawns onto teammates under fire even though they should be locked from spawning on as the enemy looks at them

[main jacinth]

i feel like its less about risk and more about oh there is 2 guys there and then you kill one.... and then boom there is 5 guys

[brittle nebula]

more kills for me

[main jacinth]

exactly but it can be cheesed also that being oh my whole team got killed let me sit in this building for 3 seconds and boom everyone's back

[languid violet]

It's so ridiculous I actually wholly support this. It could be linked to a specific class, like support

[clever moat]

https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1180246958347145257

[patent mirage]

So instead of spawning into a bullet we get to hold space for 8s then spawn in a bullet

[clever moat]

There are many people having regards on the voting system

People call it "broken"

[clever moat]

Bro Is like phantom forces 💀

[patent mirage]

Pf in combat check actually works 💀

[twin dust]

That’s what I don’t get. You’re effectively telling players to wait to just have the same effect of getting spawnkilled.

Only thing this changes is people being less likely to pull off flank plays when back capping enemy objectives. Which.. yeah sure that’s a great way to keep people on the same 5 chokepoints and waki bridge… but other than that it doesn’t seem like it would work

[clever moat]

Doki, I have a feeling this wouldn't work well

[abstract frigate]

holding a key pressed is boring, my friend complains that most things need to have stuff being pressed for multiple seconds

like every game long press to agree for not toxicity, long press every spawn now too?

[charred fossil]

If I may make a suggestion, maybe instead of this mechanic add a no-spawn zone wherever teamates are killed for a c ertain amount of time

so people don't just keep running in and spawning right next to danger?

[sullen dawn]

another idea: if anyone dies around players get into "in combat" state so if you are killing, you can be sure there is no respawn going for couple of seconds just due the fact you get the kill - so every kill will make no-respawn zone, this would resolve directly issue raised by Oki and also make medics more valuable

that would make your kills matter more i believe

I think the key is to use solution as simple as possible, test it out and then adjust if needed.

[sterile hatch]

how to get to the beginning of this topic?

aint gonna scroll up x'D

[sullen dawn]

i reply so people can scroll up

[sullen dawn]

i did it for you

[clever moat]

https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1180246958347145257

[lapis trench]

for the love of god dont make me hold yet another key for some arbitrary time, just make a countdown till i can click, it is hella annoying when games force you to hold down a freaking button, dying light 2 does that, no mans sky did that, i cant stand it

[flint crystal]

I'd say there's a problem with infinite stand-offs atm. Maybe respawns should take progressively longer if within half a min or near the same area etc

[pearl musk]

What about respawns get longer if you are closer to objectives AND those objectives are contested or have enemies within a certain range?

[pearl musk]

This is a good QOL change. I think that it's to give the feeling of getting into the action faster. Can't respawn for 5 seconds after death. Then hold the deploy button for 5 seconds. Versus can't respawn for 10 seconds after death. Not disagreeing with you, but speculating on the reasoning behind that decision.

Or possibly the 1-5 second hold is to give the player some idea of the level of danger nearby in case they change their mind?

[lapis trench]

im not against the time, im exclusively against the holding key down aspect of it

[pearl musk]

I understand. Was just thinking why that choice was made. Another feature you may like, one from Hell Let Loose, is the abilty to click that deploy button immediately and when the timer hits 0 you'll spawn in. While it's still counting down you have the option to cancel that deploy and choose another location

It's say "deploying in 5 seconds.." or something like that

[lapis trench]

how hell let loose does it basically yeah, you can click "spawn" or something which gives you this "spawning in 5...", you can cancel it to not spawn

[jade maple]

"Manageable" isn't a meaningful gameplay goal. Do you want players to stop being stuck in infinite whack-a-mole situations because they don't manage to wipe a squad? This doesn't stop that at all, it just adds another layer of unintuitive mechanics that organised players will exploit to wipe quick match randos. And you're giving them free wallhacks on top of that.

There are things you don't need to experiment with to figure out are fundamentally bad design. Good design always involves clear and consistent feedback for a player. If killing an enemy might mean they're gone for good OR that they're about to respawn behind a bush because a teammate happens to be there, you're giving a wildly different payoff for an extremely common action in the gameplay loop. And due to the sheer size and complexity of maps, it's impossible for any one player to thoroughly check an area to ensure it's fully clear, so you're again going against your claimed goal of having an experience geared towards solo casuals. And for the player who dies, whether they just need to wait a few seconds to appear in the same area or have to grab a vehicle and drive 1km back is also an entirely different result which is completely out of their control, depending on whether they have competent teammates or not.

Squad spawning is fine if you want a mode that plays like generic Team Deathmatch, otherwise, the Planetside 2 system of giving every squad member free access (cooldown-only) to the rallies is the best way to 1) remove dependency on a good squad leader, 2) provide a clear end-state when fighting off a squad that lets you know their presence in the area has been removed and 3) create a less chaotic flow as samet-team squads will intuitively position rallies close to each other forming a frontline.

[elfin knot]

I think the idea that it takes longer to spawn on m8s when enemies are nearby is the way to go. Simply because as an attacker it gives me a chance to wipe squads but also because as a defender I still have a chance of a comback. Some people think that it should no longer be possible to spawn on squad M8s. That's bullshit. If I want to play a run simulator I can just play Hell Lelt Loose or something similar. The game is still causal. And hopefully it will stay that way. What I would like to see, however, is a "hardcore" mode in the game that has the respwan system from HLL, for example. You could also add a damage multiplier and other things to make the game harder.
In the end, Battlebit is also doing well with the current respawn system.

[charred fossil]

Yeah, that's more or less what I was thinking in concept, I think this would do LOTS of good

One of the big issues is definitely stealthy enemies hiding in a bush spawning entire squads on them. And the other imo is the endless wars at big points because people can die and respawn back on the front lines in 10 seconds

[humble turret]

How bad is this idea

[strong flint]

Not as bad as your assumption

[jade maple]

For your consideration, from someone who absolutely doesn't want walking simulator (but thinks that squad spawning is the source of most of the issues you listed in the last devstream). https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1183210810760249425

[uneven lagoon]

reminder that the !lead dev thinks that flanking is too powerful of a strategy

[faint hamlet]

what was the context behind that because i would agree because helis are so tanky it is kinda annoying to just have helis constantly drop behind you and not be able to do much about it

[uneven lagoon]

https://clips.twitch.tv/ProudApatheticHerdWOOP--Qq9q6Ocvhyd_zIO

yesterdays dev stream

[sinful pike]

Let it go bro, you're not being constructive

[uneven lagoon]

https://tenor.com/view/ltg-lowtiergod-mods-tie-him-up-coal-gif-13955980831715874640

[faint hamlet]

TBH just putting the spawn range restriction back up from where it is now would be better tbh

people complained because it was too hard to spawn but it should be difficult to spawn into a firefight that you litereally just died in

[agile trench]

^ literally what's the point of firefights if u kill someone and within 5 seconds not only they're back to where you killed them, but also they brought friends

[upper marsh]

i'd suggest letting people spawn on friendly points even if contested, but then let them spawn around the outskirts or something, since people are often entirely reliant on squad spawning to determine if a point is won or not

[honest silo]

Nah lets just do the squad timer depending on enemy thing and see how it works out

[opaque iron]

Yes, this is exactly the thing we were trying to pitch during the early part of this (and the deleted) thread. I think it will give a macro-sized ability for the entire team to coordinate. If we only allow people to spawn in the half circle~~ nearest to~~ facing a friendly spawn point, it would create natural battle lines for us to support

[charred fossil]

I think the big issues here is that you end up not having squadmates to spawn on as often

Unless you have snipers/people hanging back a bit, which happens fairly often... but I have tons of matches where everyone is far into the point as well

[jade maple]

Right. But that's a problem inherent to squad spawning, no? The only way to make optimal use of it is to have at least one squaddie that is willing to play from the back to serve as a reliable point for the squad to regroup at. Or have squad members that are really paying attention so they can disengage when their others mates are down. Either way, it goes against one of the core design principles of the game which is to be as friendly to casuals as possible, since the obvious way of playing is no longer the optimal one.

You could remove the noise the rally points make to make them more viable as backline spawns, but then coupled with squad spawning it would make entrenched tryhards infinitely harder to dislodge, specially in areas with complicated layouts (e.g. Wakistan point A) since there's no way you can possibly make sure there's no rally point left in the area without the sound cue.

IF rallies became the primary source of spawns, then making them silent would be a more reasonable proposition given that tracking enemies back to the source then becomes a viable strategy. And then they would have more survivability as backline spawns, so they can be thrown down some 50m away from a fight and stay there relatively undisturbed until your squad is wiped.

[charred fossil]

yeah i definitely think rallies are ok as is now if squads spawning remains

[jade maple]

Happy to confirm that squad spawning changes still don't prevent you from appearing in situations where you die 2 seconds later 💀

[jade marlin]

It never was going to stop it only lower the amount of times it happens.

The nature of player spawning, getting to the fight faster will also resullt in a faster death.

[jade maple]

Indeed. That's my point, Oki believes he can somehow give players instant access to a battle without this resulting in a chaotic, disorganised experience. Which is a fundamentally contradictory set of goals.

[dapper maple]

Crazy, because I play battlebit partially for that reason

love me some chaos in my FPS game

[jade maple]

Is being stuck in Waki bridge the chaos you speak of?

[dapper maple]

I don't get stuck, I either reach through to the other side and kill like 13 of them or die

no in-between

[jade maple]

Yeah that's cool

That's the kind of chaos I want to see and which people could still get without squad spawning

Appearing in the middle of a building missing half of its walls with multiple enemies shooting at you from all sides is the kind of chaos I don't find so interesting

[dapper maple]

But it takes me longer to help my teammates otherwise

[dapper maple]

Yeah that part is always annoying, people just lay down and die basically

Which is why if I know I can't help, I just don't spawn on that player

[jade maple]

Which means that your help is actually valuable. If you make a run through a storm of bullets, lay down some cover and revive someone, that's worth a lot more to them when you just saved them a walk from a point 50m back instead of a 5 second click to reappear 5m to the right. The enemy will also have the same restrictions, so this also means that when you kill someone, you know this just pushed back the enemy's frontline in a meaningful manner and not just that the guy is probably going to appear off to the side a few seconds later like nothing had happened.

[dapper maple]

If he does i'll likely kill him too from a angle he doesn't expect, I do bridge spearheads all the time from bridge to whatever point they we're advancing to

Taking it slower and clearing angles wherever cover is does a lot to make those pushes more effective instead of proning behind a hesco placement until the enemy team disappears or runs us over

[round musk]

This
It makes killing and reviving people have such a bigger impact on the game its unreal

[dapper maple]

So matches become sweeps if that team has momentum

[round musk]

"Having momentum" aka a team having good plays and doing well enough to actually get a swift victory
As opposed to the current hesco wall clown cars and a single flanking guy becoming an entire battalion on F point by your base

[dapper maple]

you mean the 3 sweats running through their frontline?

or the CatEat stack even?

[round musk]

The thing that already happens, and that ends up in 10 people spawning on them behind your team, turning the whole match into a clusterfuck

Making squad spawns more limited is a net good compared to what we have by a mile

[dapper maple]

So the fix to make kills matter more is to make kills more impactful but also in turn making matches very one sided if you're on a weak team.

which makes matches not fun for newer players, resulting in them learning from less mistakes and losing faster.

[round musk]

First of all, it's a very big assumption you're doing here
"Making lives matter more = lots of rounds will be landslides" Is a very funny slippery slope to try and counter "maybe matches shouldn't be a slog repetitive meatgrinder that goes nowhere"

[dapper maple]

My counter to that is and always has been "People should be aware of their positioning and learn to spread out more instead of doing the default meat grinder strat"

[round musk]

If a team is significantly better than the other, a decisive victory can happen, that's just the nature of pvp, and it's a thing that happens that GAME DESIGN is made with influencing player behavior in mind

[jade maple]

Not quite. Due to the way spawns would need to be set up, this actually gives the side who just lost a window to regroup and push back before the other side can consolidate their advance.

[dapper maple]

And how would that work if they take a flag on conquest for instance?

[round musk]

Also this, you're closer to the fight when you spawn if you're actually depending a point

[dapper maple]

their next spawn is either the flag behind it or their spawn

[delicate galleon]

make all spawns instant

[dapper maple]

which leads to spawn camping, which isn't fun for anyone

[round musk]

By some good player actually killing the person that was good enough in the first place to steal the flag? That's not really a compelling argument

[delicate galleon]

everyone happy

[dapper maple]

As that good player, yes it is LOL. People don't find fucking snowballing fun in ANY game

[jade maple]

Well, they have the flag, so if they want to "keep momentum" they will immediate need to start driving to the next point, but if the defenders manage to repel this attack, then they're left with no intermediate spawns so now a counterattack begins.

Otherwise, they will begin a slow advance while setting up forts and rallies, while the defenders try to prevent this from happening.

[dapper maple]

Idc if I drop 120+ kills, that shit isn't fun if it was mostly me spawn stalking because they couldn't spawn back fast enough to actually stop a push

[round musk]

Jesus, this isn't snowballing
This is making the impact of players on matches actually matter, if that's snowballing to you idk what to say

[jade maple]

I mean I agree that "snowballing" could happen in principle if you keep around mechanics like only awarding squad points to the side doing well, as then one side will be able to fortify their positions. But it's more about a big skill gap that just persists across the match and causes one side to be pushed back. But that's still not fun in the current system and is something that auto-balance should address.

[round musk]

And there are ALREADY ways in which players can do actual snowballing with the current system much worse than with the proposed changes
IE flanking infinite spawns

[dapper maple]

And my point is that if the attackers take the flag, then they lose the flag and have to spawn a fair distance back

which gives them almost no time to set up a defense

[dapper maple]

I knew this was going twards auto-balancing lol, which doesn't help if those top players are in different leagues themselves

it'll just be slower

[dapper maple]

That literally only happens if the whole team is at one flag

which i've seen happen often, and that's not something we should think will be fixed by making combat spawns moot

[jade maple]

And this only happens if you have every single squad get wiped with no rallies. At least some of the defenders are bound to have some peripheral rallies along the road that they can use to harass the attackers as they try to advance, or attempt a back cap to draw some forces.

[dapper maple]

like for these changes, they'll have to rework a lot of map flag layouts, which will end up in a lot of maps feeling way worse.

[round musk]

Nah, it doesn't need to be to full cap a flag, you flank a bit and get a squad behind the enemy and suddenly C is a chessboard of players that is not fun at all to be in
All squad spawning currently does is turn points into cluster fucks that don't go anywhere

[dapper maple]

would be nice if they did huh...

[dapper maple]

They make matches way closer than what you're proposing lol

[jade maple]

That's how it worked in Planetside 2 and when the high-level systems are kept similar, I don't see how this doesn't result in similar dynamics. People have a fairly predictable behavior based on the options you give them.

[dapper maple]

Planetside 2 maps facilitates that system

these maps aren't designed with that in mind atm

[round musk]

They make matches a slog that is always exactly the same and never goes anywhere
Squad spawning makes this game incredibly repetitive especially at higher playercounts

[dapper maple]

A slog because no one takes initiative to force space from the other team lol

[jade maple]

So? You can't know what/whether something needs to be tweaked unless you first test on what you have.

And let's not pretend our current set of maps is peak design. Every single "classic" map has a bunch of stupidly set up indestructible cover/foliage that allows any half competent squad to set up spawncamps anyway.

[dapper maple]

That is largely ignored by the current system

[round musk]

128 players, somehow no one takes initiative
Weird how it seems the game PUSHES things that way, right?
Would be insane if game mechanics influenced behavior...

[dapper maple]

Would be insane if players influenced themselves instead of whining about it (not you) on forums

I hear this same argument in game a lot

and I check the player and they're literally behind their frontline doing nothing or just fishing for revives

or sniping clear in the back of the map

[jade maple]

Do you have any actual proposal for anything or are you just here to state "people are dumb and nothing we ever do will fix anything so let's never change the game again"

[round musk]

This game is literally in EA
This place is MADE for feedback
People aren't supposed to "play different and fix the game", the game is supposed to change
Making game mechanics push behavior is game making 101 and yeah, "whining on threads" is exactly the right thing to do

[dapper maple]

I said before to have a tactics/tips section for stuff like reading the map and predicting enemy frontlines

a lot of people don't even know there IS a map

[jade maple]

Didn't you literally just said all people do in-game is whine, and you want them to go read a field manual?

[round musk]

That can be helpful but ultimately it's game flow and how the mechanics influence play that most dictate player action and behavior

[dapper maple]

I didn't say all, I said I see it a lot

[round musk]

If the game tells you to do X, but rewards Y, the player is doing Y

"It's important to wait on your teammates and revive" means nothing if the game does nothing to make you even consider it against holding space

[dapper maple]

That also because a good bit of medics don't actually drag or smoke bodies to revive

[round musk]

It's a vicious cycle
They know themselves it doesn't mean much, and they are at a higher risk of dying as well if they do it while the person could actually just respawn

I try to revive as many as I can when I play medic but most people just space out immediately anyway

And it's pretty frustrating

[dapper maple]

It would also help if the "Coming to revive" prompt was noticeable

which idk if it even works when downed tbh

[jade maple]

You do realise that it's literally never a good idea to drag someone right? You can drop cover and smokes while dancing on their corpse reviving them way faster

[round musk]

It's one of those things that would alleviate things a slight bit, but ultimately the issue stems from how inconsequential the whole ordeal is

[dapper maple]

Draging them into cover while reviving isn't a good idea???

Wat?

So you're telling me giving the person on the ground about to revive with 20hp the BEST chance to actually live and fight isn't a good idea?

[round musk]

No, they seem to be saying letting the person die is best
(Which it currently is, the mechanics push it to be like that)

[dapper maple]

if they're in the open yes, it's risk and reward

[round musk]

The thing is, the reward is nothing when that person can respawn on you in 5 seconds

[dapper maple]

the reward is a +1 person to help fight and XP

[jade maple]

If they don't start running the second they get up they deserve to get shot again

And I can guarantee I am responsible for many players not dragging teammates based on how many I've caught with their pants down trying to do just that

The current systems absolutely make that a terrible idea

[round musk]

It's not a +1 person, that person will show up in seconds anyway
For most people the choice is waiting 20+ seconds for a medic that may or may not come or holding space and waiting 5 seconds to spawn directly on the medic or anywhere else with combat

[dapper maple]

It really doesn't if you as the medic have any level of awareness to be like "let me peek the corner to make sure i'm not going to get ran up on in 3 seconds" @jade maple

[jade maple]

You cannot peek your way out of my C4 through a wall

And you certainly cannot know if a sniper has that corpse scoped in waiting for a noob medic to go die there next

[dapper maple]

Which is why you smoke and drag 💀

[jade maple]

And by the time that smoke popped and you've dragged them, they could have already respawned and been on their way to an actual fight

with their armor not broken and their gear not half depleted

[dapper maple]

So how does this system you're proposing fix that? Sounds like we just need a way to actually patch armor up (or rework it into DR or something idk)

end of the day, point is there's very much other things that need to be address for this change to not be a clusterfuck of bulldozers

[jade maple]

It doesn't really :)

it's part of a bunch of system changes that would need to be done

[dapper maple]

"point is there's very much other things that need to be addressed for this change to not be a clusterfuck of bulldozers"

[round musk]

Nah, this is one of the things that would help make the battles more coherent, and it's not hard to see why
It gives people an incentive to wait on medics, makes you actually be sure someone isn't actually going to be right back semi instantly as soon as you shoot them besides their friends, stops any tiny hidy hole doing the clown car thing, reduces a lot of the clusterfuckyness of maps, makes holding and protecting points much more important in a tangible and not score only way

It gives value to kills and deaths, it's the kind of stuff that pushes players together and gets more effort and communication out of them naturally

[dapper maple]

Ok, so off lucuma's point. If I waited for 20 seconds just to have to wait another 10 for a medic to rez and IN THAT TIME the medic died AND the team is already near the next flag.

what do?

Do I spawn on the flag and get fucked anyways?

because i'm spawning on a site about to be rushed by an entire frontline

and if everyone else did the same, the likelyhood that you'd be able to defend anything is very slim

[round musk]

Respawn?
This isn't a common thing, and if lots of folks died for that push to happen, guess where they ALSO spawn while the enemy has to spawn all the way back at their point

It gives defending players an advantage if anything, the enemy can't just spawn on the other pushers, they need to stay alive if they want to maintain a push, while it's easier for you to respawn

This reduces the clusterfuckyness, but it doesn't make the game any more attacker focused

[dapper maple]

No, if they've cleared a site they're gonna have players rez other dead players that haven't full died if they have advantage in numbers

[dapper maple]

It makes it attacker sided lol

The moment your defense has a hole in it and their team is higher in numbers than you on that frontline, you're cooked.

they literally win by attrition, and if i'm there seeing players get mowed down as we take their flag, i'm waiting for res lol

meanwhile if defense is doing the same thing, i'm waiting for a medic to come get me and If they're getting swarmed I then have to full die and wait to spawn. In that time frame the wall of players running through the site is gonna cap it and move on to the next one

and be VERY close to the next one

[round musk]

No? Like this goes way more on making things defense sided, you're really stretching your own team's incompetence and making up some super enemy force for that example
If your team can SPAWN on the point and the enemy have to either gamble to save teammates or spawn all the way on another point, the advantage is YOURS
If someone manages to get a push going past that then congrats, they're doing very well, and that's not a bad thing
This isn't what's gonna be happening most of the time, this is a very specific case you're stuck on

[dapper maple]

I'm going off of experience of almost all of my matches on official and non vanilla servers. A lot of the time if I die holding a frontline near a flag, by the time I full die and try to rez, they're either near the flag or almost on it by the time I spawn.

so I either can't spawn or when I do i'm immediately on the back foot because I lost a bunch of cover spawning where I did which funnels players into a small space where they just get:

https://tenor.com/view/fight-back-gang-fight-gif-14104821

which is just gonna end up with me spawning a flag back or running from spawn with these changes

[round musk]

Yes, they can do that because they can easily respawn on each other WHILE they push, and quickly recover all their numbers while pushing to the next
They get a big advantage from squad spawning that would not exist with the proposed change

The only way this can happen like this is because of squad spawns, they help the attacker much more than the defender

[dapper maple]

Yes, because people would just run medic making the issue more pronounced when they revive their teammate

because now instead of them keeping that pressure, you're maybe affording 5-7 seconds worth of extra time to do anything if they even have the points or realize whats coming

[round musk]

No?
Without squad spawning a attacking force suffers many more attrition losses, and having to spawn back at a previous point really takes a toll on the momentum of any force that isn't doing exceptionally well
You're imagining the worst possible scenario, not considering or downplaying any of the factors that make it rare and limit it to very well made plays, and ignoring or downplaying every advantage given to the defenders

Not everyone will be revived, this is ESPECIALLY true for attackers, medics need to also give their time and risk their safety to revive players when pushing, and no matter what happens, they WILL be weakened by a big push

[dapper maple]

The points are not that far away to... nvm

You're ignoring how most of the maps are designed with this proposal, the game is not that slow that I can't run through Waki B site and be halfway to A in the time it takes to spawn in.

a lot of maps are like that actually

so this change literally does nothing but give the team with the better/sweat players more weight on how the match plays out and actually values the other players less than it already does, giving no opportunity for any sway and makes matches lockouts which fucking sucks.

You're trying to give a meaning to more kills and teamplay with this change, and i'm promising you from being someone who's been on both sides of the coin it doesn't do anything but hurt the game's flow as is and makes people who don't have a run and gun playstyle less important

Which is the majority of newer players starting out and getting used to the game

So they'll just get frustrated and feel like they're just kinda there, get bored and leave.

And lobby balancing almost never fixes the issue.

[round musk]

I mean, I've seen lots of people talk about this being a reason for them leaving
The current way of things is very run and gun focused when a single run and gunner can amoeba style divide into more run and gunners
This DOES affect how matches go because discourages running straight past the enemy

I've played this game for a few good hundred hours, I've done the smg shtick and also the support bipod plays, this game doesn't need squad spawning, it only hurts the flow and makes it dull

[dapper maple]

Because running straight past a enemy isn't fun for majority of people, they come to chill and less so win in casual lobbies. Forcing a different playstyle doesn't change anything, it's just another flavor of the same thing.

[round musk]

It isn't, it's exactly what I said, with squad spawning you can capitalize on that because dying from some hell aggressive play has no weight

The games mechanics CAN and WILL influence player behavior

[dapper maple]

If the play is agressive enough you literally can't spawn as is anyways with the current way spawning works

[round musk]

If it's just aggressively enough you end with a map that looks like the floor of a person that hoards red vs blue figurines' house

[dapper maple]

Have you actually played the recent patch by chance?

Because i've been in matches TODAY where it's already the case of "Dude pushes, can't spawn"

like I haven't seen a jeep beacon in a long time, but i'm seeing it more as of late

[round musk]

That's a move in the right direction

[dapper maple]

and matches have been pretty even as is if players keep up the pressure on site retakes

It's literally doing what you're proposing, if they actually take space like they should, spawning on squadmates doesn't happen often if they're in combat.

meanwhile if a teammate is off the side of a site that's being pushed, I can spawn on him to add some extra attrition

It's literally the best of both worlds at this point

it's punishing to die in a frontline or a clash on a site, but a squadmate being further behind still gives you the opportunity to spawn closer

and if you're firing at or pressuring a players you can actively see, they can't spawn anyone anyways

[round musk]

It would still be better to have the points actually be important, as well as it having a much larger impact on moment to moment gameplay to at least restrict more squad spawns
And yeah, I've played recently, people still spawn in allies very frequently when they go behind cover for 2 seconds

[dapper maple]

They LITERALLY win the game if you take them and run the team out of tickets lol

like, I haven't had a match yet that was a fully carry by kills alone despite having most flags taken

and i'm around 304 hours in as we speak (Would be more but armored core and other shit released soon after this game did)

[round musk]

This isn't just about match balance, it's also about moment to moment weight of gunfights but whatever, you do you

[dapper maple]

they feel pretty weighty to me, if I lose them I lose space 8/10 times.

which hurts retake efforts

[dapper maple]

Which is why I flank the guy about to run away so that I can mow him and his squad down behind a rock. Aggression in those moments do a lot to alleviate the squad spawning "issue"

[sage aspen]

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