Armour - Feedback

[merry whale]

I have seen people spawn camp vehicles

and vehicles camping in spawn

[hard valve]

it's atm the best way to play them because how weak and cringe they are in fight

BF3 Tank is a real tank that'll make you fear, BBR tank is a fuckin meme where I'm jumping all around and destroying it in 1.2s the time to throw 3C4 at 8m from him and RMB

when HE shell is actually less efficient than AP on other games

[long pollen]

Their projectiles are already so slow that anyone getting hit at long distances deserves it tbh

[dry cliff]

Cone of fire is actually the worst on vehicles

like, a little ok, but the LAV is just pitiful

[hard valve]

LAV is imo the worst threat if it got the power of BF's LAV (normal LAV balance) but on this game it's pure meme imo
3 body shoot to kill and like 6 with aoe (at feet) going 8+ shoot to kill 1 guy, topkek

[twin hazel]

with how quickly an LAV/BTR can be killed, would their gun actually being somewhat more powerful actually be terrible?

[dry cliff]

Just give them a machine gun

Then they have both the main gun and the machine gun. It's the 7 second reload that gets it killed pretty easy

[hard valve]

just change the 1 code line of BTR aoe dmg
I know the vehicles physics rework is cooking so I'm good with that

[twin hazel]

the machine gun would help but not really do much in the long run I think. does the Tanks coax actually range or is it purely close range use?

[hard valve]

no sense on a LAV or BTR to have machine gun and actually it'd ask to change the model

[twin hazel]

Both have it modeled actually.

[hard valve]

the machine gun on LAV?

Where

[hard valve]

It's midrange

[twin hazel]

hmm, well where it goes on the BTR is already there anyway. LAV should have one too. either way, a coax ain't gonna help much at all

still no clue why we got the BTR which is an IFV and a LAV which is an APC as comparable vehicles

[hard valve]

Both infantry support

[twin hazel]

not really

[hard valve]

same combat capabilities

[twin hazel]

LAV armor can't stand up to 12.7

it ain't meant to go near the fighting

[hard valve]

wdym can't stand up to 12.7?

[twin hazel]

that is literally one of its listed limitations

by both manufacture and the marine corps.

[hard valve]

on what parts?

[twin hazel]

the Hull

the part where it keep the infantry

the turret everywhere but the front

actually I think hull front is capable to take 50 ap

but every other angle no

[hard valve]

There's actually MEXAS that can be added to protect against heavier calibers

[twin hazel]

I mean yes

but we got base LAV

[hard valve]

And..?

It's a game

[twin hazel]

we aren't talking armor packages?

[hard valve]

It was like that on BF idk why changes things for very minor IRL points

[twin hazel]

there are other things that do the same job as the BTR that are not the LAV?

[hard valve]

Looks almost the same, we all know this one, idk why change

[twin hazel]

BTR = IFV and anti air armored weapon system

LAV = APC meant to stay well behind main force

anyway this is armor

not correct chat technically

[hard valve]

If you're talking about the 30mm for anti-air, the LAV can do same with the 25mm

For real it's such minor things

[twin hazel]

BTR was designed to aim higher anyway

[hard valve]

Before replacing, adding models doing way more complicated things like that, just buff the current cannon because it's shit

[hard valve]

Ok doesn't change the fact that you can do AA with the LAV

[twin hazel]

only cause they made it the same as BTR for some reason

even if they nerfed elevation by alot

[hard valve]

Desert eagle are a thing in game when it's total shit for military war, and there's tons of stuff like that, idk who cares really

[twin hazel]

they maybe elevate to 30 degrees, maybe up to 40 at most and thats pushing it. they should be closer to 70-80

[hard valve]

...

[twin hazel]

they nerfed it cause it was "too OP" vs helos

[hard valve]

So you want devs to look at wikipedia ?

and do the nerds about it

basically

[twin hazel]

they literally already had that buddy

I don't think you understand where this game started

[hard valve]

I don't care where it started tbh

[twin hazel]

all those "nerdy" things was actual research already done

[hard valve]

I know the current game

and things that have to change

[twin hazel]

you really don't.

[hard valve]

Oh yes I know my friend

because I played since I'm 5yo and I've done maybe like 250+ games in my whole life and actually work a lot as beta tester and spent shit tons of time with balance thing on BF3 forum when DICE guys come times to times

So I don't know the whole story about how it was.. and thing like that
The game has problem today, the AoE of the LAV and BTR is shit so my feedback is => Buff the aoe

I don't talk about helis

Idk why you are talking about helis

[twin hazel]

"I have dedicated my life to this game and have played many games before" lol

[hard valve]

?

[twin hazel]

anyway, BTR and LAV had the elevation to contend with choppers. were more accurate, and had more velocity.

[hard valve]

And it's not the problem

[twin hazel]

then Heli players complained, so all were nerfed cause Too OP

[hard valve]

Yes and?

Now?

[twin hazel]

so all those things were taken away

[hard valve]

there's no chopper in BBR btw

when I said chopper talking about attack helicopter

[twin hazel]

Buffing AOE is not a thing that is going to happen or even needs to happen.

[hard valve]

You don't know, and why?

[twin hazel]

the other things make the gun so shit, the average AOE is a joke because your bullets go everywhere

[hard valve]

Absolutely not

[twin hazel]

the thing has a 5 meter blast radius at least.

[hard valve]

Actually I killed many people with the LAV and BTR and I often land direct shots, you need 3 (which is kinda dumb) my problem was not really about direct shot but on the AoE made by it

[twin hazel]

you just can't put your shells where you want.

[hard valve]

The AoE on BF dealt way more damage that on this one, and the reload belt was also way faster

also BTR and LAV in BF was way more maniable

So I know by a fact on a game where infantry is already way faster than BF, and where the meta is C4 RPG HEAT, that you can buff the BTR and LAV AoE without risking an imbalance

I don't throw random feedback because IRL I've read that it should be like that, I throw feedback because I see a big problem, I know there's some solution and I try to change the main problem to avoid having impact on other things

[twin hazel]

yes, but AOE is not the thing we would need to try and fix first. there's alot of other things that need to happen for that thing to be anything other than a midrange RPG magnet.

[hard valve]

Btw we're in armour feedback so it's not even the good thread

[hard valve]

no, the aoe is the problem because ven if it's big, it deals shit damage and you need 7/8 rounds when a guy is 1/2 meters next to the explosion

[twin hazel]

the AOE is... fine I guess, the other things, including overall damage, make the gun just shit.

that's.. not how the AOE works currently? unless you are shooting groups you mean

[hard valve]

You don't imagine how boosting the aoe can make the BTR broken I think

[twin hazel]

so you want... to buff the AOE anyway?

[hard valve]

But it needs a buff right now to be still 3/4 rounds when very close to the direct hit (1/2m)

The BTR is made for that so.. if it can't even kill infantry (and how shitty is the driving + how squishy it is) it'll really never be meta or fun to play with

[twin hazel]

at least we know the vehicle driving shit is becasue unity bugs

[hard valve]

In BF vehicles were way way more stronger than those, I don't even understand how can people complain

There was no jet, no attack heli, no javelin, FAR FAR less players in the map

[twin hazel]

same way people see "x weapon" and think "broken"

[hard valve]

the Little bird was litteraly 10 times stronger compared to LAV and Tanks rn

[twin hazel]

FAL, M4, AK74, fucking m9 early on lol

if they see it alot, they complain about it

they challenge a vehicle staring at them and can't fathom why they died

[hard valve]

You know that on BF, you have like personnalization around vehicles you could specific smoke to cancel mark/lock, thermic vision etc

[twin hazel]

ye, loved rolling around in the tanks

[hard valve]

Here there's nothing about that + vehicles are shit and there's 127 players on the map, but people think vehicles OP

I mean just remove them

There are fuckin useless rn

Just turret good to camp at spawn, nice

Basically tank and BTR rn are improved M200

[twin hazel]

I do think you are advocating for a damage buff instead of an AOE buff btw

maybe a falloff buff for AOE

[hard valve]

wdym

[twin hazel]

AOE is a decent size, but it doesn't kill because damage/damage falloff, which is what I think you are talking about?

[hard valve]

I don't have the data, I should try it on private server

already did to see how suppressors are shit and that you've to be at 5m radius of the trophy system to be working

[twin hazel]

well that's fair for the trophy system since you get so fucking many and they go through walls in a sphere the same radius.

[hard valve]

I don't even know why you get that much btw

5

[twin hazel]

wakistan

that alone

[hard valve]

yeah but why not 2 with 8m radius

now it's just you spam an area of it

some takes are so weird

[twin hazel]

it is meant to be able to cover more entrances, and I think the going through walls is not intended

[hard valve]

but it doesn't impact the meta in any way, it's just a weird thing

[hard valve]

yeah like AoE working weird

[twin hazel]

true yeah, just throw c4 20 feet by looking up and do the same job

love being in my little box of cover and getting blown up by stuff on the other side. they said I think they fixed it? or are going to anyway

no clue what they did that messed that up, since it was working fine before

[flat laurel]

The little box on the side is the PKT.

[twin hazel]

LAV don't got its coax modeled, but its supposed to be under and to the guns right a little

[hard valve]

yeah but it's not modeled

as the LAV

[twin hazel]

just needs the guns barrel added

for both

[hard valve]

I don't think it's good idea again

it's just avoiding a problem by adding a qwak solution

[twin hazel]

its not needed and would be unhelpful in 90% of cases. would be nice to have but def not something high on the list of wants.

[hard valve]

Wouldn't change the fact that you don't kill ennemy behind cover when the 25/30mm is supposed to

Actually it's a 3sk 12.7 with some super weak aoe (and it deals less dmg that the M2 on the jeep 2sk)

[twin hazel]

it just needs to be more of a threat period, right now you can challenge one, and as long as you are not in an open field, get at least one shot off, which is likely gonna be a tandem.

I personally wouldn't mind it going back to what it used to be with more accuracy since its so easy to kill. (honestly I can't say I've been killed by a vehicle sitting in spawn unless I challenged it)

[hard valve]

yeah for now vehicles are toys with funny weapon
you'll see after some months of gaming everyone will jump like bunnies around vehicles
want to know why? Because even in BF experimented players did that around vehicles and they were 3 times stronger than those ones

[twin hazel]

yeah c4ing a vehicle was a staple

[hard valve]

I don't think it needs accuracy, just more aoe like that you can actually clean infantry as it supposed to be

[hard valve]

and was way harder => support only => 2 in the back (only) else 3/4, took way more time to put and was like 2/3m throw, not 8

[twin hazel]

more damage, a larger aoe is just going to be the same thing, except worse in groups

[hard valve]

not larger aoe but aoe dmg yes

[twin hazel]

that would be damage falloff?

[hard valve]

should be very close to 35dmg (it was 35 IIRC on BF3)

[twin hazel]

right?

eh something like that

[hard valve]

huuuuh I don't know how it works there, if it's direct fall off from 100 straight line down or if it's like area, I think it's lethal, then dmg fallofff

but there's no lethal there, so I assume it must be like 20 dmg to nothing

[twin hazel]

I've been at the edge of its AOE and taking less than 20 damage per hit(since it took 6 or 7 shots to kill me with aoe alone)

no clue about if I was close to the center

[hard valve]

talking about aoe only there, no direct hit

direct hit is imo fine IF aoe is way stronger

if you want to keep that aoe, then put it 2sk but it'll be a little wild
also there should be headshoot

[twin hazel]

wouldn't mind that, especially with the low ammo count, slow reloads and slow rate of fire.

accuracy would be nice as well so if a guy standing still beyond 50 meters is not bracketed by my shots instead of being hit

[hard valve]

they can make 1st shoot accurate, not the other one in the same volley

[twin hazel]

the thing fires slow enough that it shouldn't miss by 5-10 meters, at least have accuracy get worse the longer the burst is, cause unless they are out in the open they are not gonna die.

Hell I would settle for two shots being even somewhat accurate to where I aim.

[hard valve]

Accuracy is not that much of a problem for -100 but after 150 it becomes to be a bit annoying, for that I'm fine, most fight I did on BF were before 150m there was also that CoF

[twin hazel]

that was also with a more damaging gun that fired alot faster however.

and within 100 is a death sentence in this game

[merry whale]

pretty sure you only get 3 at a time per player

[twin hazel]

isn't it 4 or even 5 to place? still thats per player.

[merry whale]

it is 3 to my knowledge, you get up to like 5 to place as support but they disappear similar to mines

[supple pulsar]

isnt it 4?

[merry whale]

just checked

it is 4

my bad

[dry cliff]

Can we timeout Okami and Devil everytime they speak to one another lol

[long pollen]

Feedback quality would improve by 5000% if they added a 10 minute timeout like the map threads have

[dry cliff]

I don't want slowdown, I think the live talks are valuable. Okami and Devil are just dummies 😂

[devout mango]

nerf exo armor, there is currently no reason for support players to stay stationary to provide cover fire so you encounter them in regular engagements and their armor makes killing them as a medic very difficult

[sick prawn]

Exo actually feels like it needs a buff, i dont see any reason of using it unless you wanna survive more against snipers and DMR

I run the other armours for speed and feels way better

Like, no disrespect, if you hit your shots right, the TTK doesnt feel that different most of the times

[dense juniper]

Remove armor

[sick prawn]

Goat

[long pollen]

Yes, Support should just directly get +250 hp as its class perk 😌

[twin hazel]

just give support painkiller

[long pollen]

When support reaches 0hp the countdown to be revived starts but you don't die until it's empty 😎

[merry whale]

I can't tell if this is joking or not

[devout mango]

i dumped a full mag from the automatic glock into the back of a supports exo helmet from point blank range, he turned around and hipfired me

[merry whale]

that may be the bug getting fixed, also as a side note

the glock does 18 or 19 damage ( I forget)

the support exo helmet is 37 armor

assuming 19

[devout mango]

damage is 19 and capacity is 19

i have not done the math on amount of bullets it would take for it to break armor and then also kill

[merry whale]

that is 2 shots to the helmet

Than the 19 x 1.2 (HS Multiplier)

so might as well say 23 damage (5 tap range)

[devout mango]

i think the bigger issue is just the support challenges making everyone use support

[merry whale]

If it helps,against support aim for the arms or legs

arms & legs avoid the armor

does 1x damage as well

[devout mango]

yeah at the time of the g18 incident i was not aware that the arms and legs don't have armor

[merry whale]

so 6 shots will kill a support

[devout mango]

still even with that most of the time i run into support players they are like point blank in front of me

[merry whale]

and you have a good round a 1100 RPM if I recall

Well here is a thing Mime

the arms cover the upper half of the torso when ADSed

let me nab a SS for you

[devout mango]

yes please

[merry whale]

this is just a standing target

gets worse when they are crouched or prone

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1152896217517391902/1159621701945012234/8mb.video-8QQ-VvOsqcHi.mp4?ex=6531b0de&is=651f3bde&hm=833de09e931c6ea935c9a91050c8848db934474922f1ab2b40c0f0ba8b5894dc&

[devout mango]

oh yeah i get what you are saying

[merry whale]

otherwise keep in mind all of support's weapons take longer to ADS prior to the penalties

[devout mango]

yeah most of the time they just hipfire me

[merry whale]

so if they are sprinting & you both run into each other

you have a advantage & best guess

they heard your footsteps

(Enemy footsteps are by a default louder than a ally's)

[devout mango]

i think footsteps are broken and often times play ally footsteps as if enemys

[merry whale]

well another bug to add to the list lol

[devout mango]

there have been many times i have heard louder footsteps in the building i am in and i go looking but find no one other than nearby teammates

[merry whale]

but to sum up, you get the idea

Exo isn't the best in the world

the helmet is the only truly useful part

[devout mango]

yeah id say my biggest issue is not having aiming for legs or arms as muscle memory

i run into the enemy panic and immediately aim for the head or body

a lot of things with gun fights just seem inconsistent to me

[merry whale]

Aye fair, well we do currently have the one bug in play

so guns that prefer a closer range are at a disadvantage currently

[devout mango]

very

[merry whale]

so once that gets fixed,things should at least be a touch more consisent

[devout mango]

next week will prob be better if they don't do support challenges

[merry whale]

I am just wanting a MG3 here mixed with differenting the kill requirements on the various things

AKA having the use THIS weapon having the least

with having the class wide ones being the most

[dry cliff]

Fursuit armor when

[twin hazel]

wearing it means you take FF damage and 3x damage from enemies

[random marten]

How are you not dead yet!
C O C A I N E

[random marten]

Yeah, I usually either run heavy or medium vest with exo hat

[sick prawn]

g18 kills exo with at least 9 bullets at point blank range

[limber pewter]

not to mention, what they described is pretty much exactly what exo should do IMO. thats the point of it lol

[sick prawn]

well, exo should tank, thats the point of running an exo suit

and i feel like the drawback are way too much, so i dont run exo

[limber pewter]

i dunno about the drawbacks being too much fullstop, but definitely too much for the relative lack of any advantage you gain from wearing it

(currently)

[sick prawn]

after a first gun fight, your exo suit is pretty much worthless, cuz the hp from armour doesnt heal

if armours had %dmg reduction, THEN i would see potential from running heavier armour

people run ranger armour for the extra mags, not for armour

people choose light armour because they give you MOVEMENT SPEED

exo suit makes you tank "some" headshots from snipers

increase TTK by 30 to 50% for the first couple of fights

and after that it just slows you down

if you tell me thats the point of running an exo suit, i will tell you they will keep being lackluster

[dense juniper]

I'll tell you just remove armor

[gleaming needle]

most armors medium or above already add 1 shot to kill so i don't see how a % that adds one shot to kill would change that

most people suggesting a % reduction want the same bullets to kill from full health but they want the armor to not break

so when your fully healed you basically are back to being fully armored and healed instead of just fully healed

and that's what i think most people aren't understanding they think people want the % to make people take 5 more shots to kill when that isnt the case

[dense juniper]

Also gonna require basically remodelling all armors except exos because they might as well be invisible and people start blaming hit reg again

[twin hazel]

I wouldn't mind blast resistance for based on the tier of armor, but yeah bullet Res % would not be a great idea in the long run. still want the ability to repair though.

[merry whale]

So far you got two main schools of thought on armor mainly

1. Keep it fairly similar but make it repairable + reduce the damage to limbs or armor them up as well somehow

2. make it unbreakable & change the armor EHP into DR effectively to reach the same EHP (So opposite of what R6S did)

[dense juniper]

You forgot the remove it

[merry whale]

well I meant main thoughts ,only heard two or three go remove it flatout

[long pollen]

Yeah, it's two separate issues. Armor needs to quit being shit, which changing it to % reduction would fix somewhat. Make the protection cover the full body (what's this pixel perfect armor shit we aren't milsim) or add limb damage that is always going to be less than a bodyshot at any level of armor. Then it's much better.

And then there's the fact that I don't like % reductions for the reasons given previously. But we would have to see where things land after the first set of changes.

[forest gull]

Armor unlocks are abysmal.
Especially on support where playing as support the armor feels like there's little to no positives, and you can't even equip a Normal backpack, Normal armor, or Normal helmet until rank 120.

[merry whale]

and 176

(a different normal backpack unlocks at 176 to clarify)

[dry cliff]

Untrue. Support unlocks an exo helmet that's objectively worse later on for the cool points 😎

Open face is 🔥

[hexed idol]

Do helmets protect the entire head hitbox or do they only work if the actual helmet model is hit?

This isn't necessarily feedback, which I apologize for, but I am very curious.

[grave shard]

only what's visible

[distant cape]

Hitbox is in line with the model, aside from decorative bits

I believe exo helmet covers entire face though

[merry whale]

excluding the 120

[dry cliff]

The one with the mask up doesn't 😎😎😎

[hexed idol]

Ok ty, that makes Exo a way better choice than I initially thought.

[shy dove]

I would like a way to resupply/repair armor. Maybe it could be added to heavy ammo supply kits to further separate them from light ammo supply kits.

[random marten]

Here's my idea, what do you think? #1152894121946648576 message

[shy dove]

I don't know how I feel about continuous resupply via ammo kit, especially since it already does that for ammo. However, I have no reservations about the rest.

[random marten]

Separate box

[shy dove]

Should there be a dedicated armor gadget for resupply and repair?

[shy dove]

Hmm, that could work.

There's also been the idea of repair tool being used for player armor to give it additional purpose, but maybe ammo and armor resupply should be support's niche.

I really wouldn't mind armor resupply being a thing in ammo boxes given that bandages are in there too. It's like a little kit of all around sustainability, but it's slow.

[vestal flame]

I think a seperate armor kit would be viable. Maybe make it support's thing since he is already has supplies, either a sidegrade for ammo, or taking up the primary gadget slot?

But I also think the inconsistency of armor is frustrating a lot of the time so reworking on that end would be more impactful to a lot of people

[shrewd crescent]

personally have always advocated for assault and support to get it
but assault gets the cooler edition that lets them fix helmets and stuff as well as having more armor repair pts or something
support is excluded from being able to just continuously fix his exo helmet in theory
either that or only allow repair of helmets to a certain level below the threshold to survive a bolt action headshot

[vestal flame]

Yeah, in general I'd like to see that when armor breaks you lose the downsides of them maybe? Or like

maybe you can remove broken armor

something like that

then repair/reequip new armor from kits

because other than the inconsistency (e.g. losing armor then getting oneshot like you have none at all) my big issue is running around with the massive downsides after it breaks

Kinda just makes heavy armor feel more negative than good really. Even on Exo I end up running the lightest armor I can w/ decent ammo capacity

I do like the idea of Assault getting armor kits/higher tier armor kits than other classes, it would fit their role pretty well imo

Maybe the armor kits only have a set of normal armor? But can be used quite a bit akin to how the supply boxes/medkits can

I'd prefer it to what we have now for sure

[shrewd crescent]

The concept was for me that:
Assault gains some extra sustain this way.
Assault gains a supporting role for the attack, or for recovery between defenses.
Armor Kit works like Ammo Kit, where you have a certain number of points to use on each item

so you can repair armor by spending points, juet like the ammo box

alternatively the assault can heal armor like support refills ammo and medic heals people

[twin hazel]

new box, right click to use on other people, only able to use on self if dropped on the ground, where there is a set time to gain a burst of armor HP

[vestal flame]

I imagine you could restore up to a certain point by hand, maybe only helmets from deployed or something like that (akin to how support can provide bullets but not grenades etc)

[shrewd crescent]

Eh, I'd rather just simplify for chestplate then helmet or only chest plate unless deployed

[vestal flame]

yeah that's what I meant

Either:
a) restores armor up to 'X' points
or
b) restores chestplates via rightclick. Helmets only restored when deployed

[shrewd crescent]

in other concepts ill republish:
assault gains access to special armor type
assault variant armor has the protection of armor 1 tier higher with no additional movement or ads speed penalty
however they have ammo capacity inverted
so heavier armor carries fewerr throwabkes and spare clips

as well as potentially something similsr to deal with explosive weapons

this includes a special assault exo

also assault gains hesvy helmets (not exo helmets) because having them all on one class is dumb

[vestal flame]

yeah I think heavier armor + still relatively fast movespeed makes sense for assault conceptually as well, just because... well, assault.

[shrewd crescent]

i want assault to have options in how it attacks a problem
brute force with c4 and heavy body armor
or eith hammer, grappling hook, and suppressed rifle
bunch of bad guys and youve got toys, figure it out

[vestal flame]

yeah, assault's niche feels like "go fast" and not much else rn, but honestly it doesn't feel great to go against in my experience

I would like to see more going for them for sure.

[shrewd crescent]

potentially giving them more specialty tools like specialized shields and breaching charges to soften up positions, or ninebang grenades to suppress areas...
regardless.

[vestal flame]

speaking of which, has there been any talk of adding suppression? (e.g. reduced accuracy when under heavy fire)

A lot of my friends have talked about the concept + seen it in other games a lot

[shrewd crescent]

I'd rsther just make suppressing fire genuinely scary
make bullets go snap crack real loud as they go over your head
no idea where they came from, now you just know you're gettinf shot st
most players duck or run for cover
suppression achieved.

[vestal flame]

Thing is, right now I can't tell where bullets are really coming from, so I do that a lot truthfully, but it still feels very icky when you have a person who just pokes out with a more accurate gun and it's over.

And I also just want a reason to like the LMGs ngl

[shrewd crescent]

thats fair
potentially giving a special hitmarker or other indication of when youre suppressing someone
as well as small points benefit

also if you really want suppression effects, give small involuntary flinch effect scaling with how nearby a bullet was?

[twin hazel]

there just needs to be something for suppression. if your shooting anything past 100 meters with anything but a dmr/sniper/Specific AR's, there is nothing you can do when they re-peak and beam you even if you are constantly firing, and even if you are doing that you will not do enough damage to single/tap fire them before they kill you due to accuracy

it doesn't help that I'm pretty sure the sounds continue forever in the direction they are fired, I'm in my spawn behing like 6 rows of buildings but there still bullets somehow going by my head?

[distant cape]

Well, yeah… you’re gonna loose when the enemy is in cover, at long range and also has a better longer range weapon than you

That seems an odd criticism

[twin hazel]

100 meters is not long range

and the fact that a sniper can peak the same spot you are shooting at, even if you hit them, and line up the perfect headshot is a problem

[distant cape]

This is battlebit. Yes it is

[distant cape]

The previous strength of aim punch was constantly complained about. I don’t think people want to go back to that

[twin hazel]

man if your thinking 100 meters is far there's something wrong with you

[distant cape]

Most fights are under 20m

[twin hazel]

as it is, if you have anything but an accurate gun you can be peaked at the same spot you are shooting at because you won't be able to kill them before they kill you, even if both of you are in cover. for AR's and other weapons this isn't as much of a problem compared to DMRs or snipers. there needs to be something to punish peeking a covered corner.

most fights are 50-100 actually unless you are playing a smaller map.

[distant cape]

That’s… why accuracy is useful

[twin hazel]

could argue for 50-150 but that is map dependent

[distant cape]

Well, low recoil really

[twin hazel]

look man, if you can just peek out into a stream of bullets with minimal care and kill the person already shooting at you, especially with a Bolt or even a dmr, there's something wrong.

[distant cape]

The thing to punish peeking a covered corner is being shot
If the other person’s weapon is not effective in the scenario then it makes sense they will not get much of an advantage from it

[distant cape]

Well, you can’t really, but people think they can which is why ultimax is so fun to play sometimes :p

[twin hazel]

you can, easily for basically anything but an LMG, and even then recoil means that at 75-100 you will most most of your shots while they line up easily.

[distant cape]

If that’s the gun being used at a distance where it doesn’t perform as well as the enemy weapon, then that is the issue.

[twin hazel]

man it is any gun that is not a sniper or DMR

[distant cape]

Wdym

[twin hazel]

if the guy you are shooting does not have a sniper or DMR its rightfully even as long as you are also in cover

[distant cape]

Why does it matter that they have a weapon more specialised for longer range

That’s just a decision they’ve made

[twin hazel]

my man stop thinking 50-100 meters is far. that is the average engagement distance maybe even a bit closer.

[distant cape]

It’s far enough for recoil to matter

I genuinely have no idea what you think the problem here is. Guns that aren’t as bothered by recoil do well in a situation where recoil is important, simple as

[twin hazel]

so being actively hit and able to just casually line up a one shot kill is fine then?

because that's what happens

[distant cape]

Uhh… yeah. Being hit isn’t a 100% death sentence and it is not intended to be

[twin hazel]

yeah, but being able to not care and peek the same guy that is still shooting you without healing or even taking cover beyond leaning, get hit again and still line up you scope with no problem?

with your logic, most weapons should not be used beyond 50 meters because "recoil" while snipers should run rampant at all ranges.

[distant cape]

No problem? They risk dying.

If they don’t die then sure, but that’s on the enemy.

[distant cape]

Most weapons aren’t as good beyond 50m as most weapons specialised for long range. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t use them, but if you’re having to use them at those ranges often then consider changing weapons.

Snipers are not very good closer up. I’ve seen like one guy become competent at using them in CQC before :p

There’s no reason to use a sniper over a weapon like the Deagle at closer ranges, and nobody complains about that being OP.

There is definitely not a sniper meta in this game

[shrewd crescent]

its map specific honestly
one of my complaints is the inability to bring mixed grenade loads

sometimes youre judt pinned dowj by a sniper and literally cannot do anything lol
and you have all these people who really want to larp as chris kyle with a bolt action
so they camp at 500-800 meters and plink at people from across the map

irregardless...

[shrewd crescent]

its the potential of the instant kill iirc
because you can vaporize a guy through a helmet...

[distant cape]

At that close range you’re probably gonna hit their face anyway, I would definitely argue the much higher fire rate outweighs that

[long pollen]

Please go and record yourself trying to pin someone down at 500m+
Unless your target is playing the chonkiest support build, bullets take so long to travel you're not going to be hitting anyone that is not completely stationary or moving in an extremely predictable way

[distant cape]

It’s so weird that the word “irregardless” literally means the same thing as “regardless”

According to grammarly.com it is a “mess of a word”, and an “insult to … people who are passionate about English vocabulary”

[long pollen]

Grammarly also makes money off of selling "the right way to write" to people. Any mildly competent linguist knows that hardline prescriptivism is an idiotic position because language is socially constructed by its own users and as such is in a permanent state of flux.

[distant cape]

True

But I do personally not like the word

It’s the kind of word that makes you think it was mostly said accidentally for people trying to sound smart but this was common enough that it became recognised as an actual word

[dry cliff]

Nah, it's more regardless, duh

It's like you're saying it's even more regardless than regardless

Irregardless of that, armor

[dense juniper]

@past drum

[past drum]

bruh i didn't know you right armor like this

also where tf does #1170727258537865367 say anything about #1019712628970508338 ???

don't even have permission to post shit here

[dense juniper]

First time?

[past drum]

what's the point?

[past drum]

ye

[dense juniper]

[keen badger]

So is there a plan for an armor rework or buff or way to repair it?

[desert trellis]

Helmets are kinda frustrating with their current implementation. They pop off after a certain amount of damage, even if the shot was a glancing one that would've easily ricocheted, and they tank high damage shots at low angles of incidence just as well as shots that'd ricochet.

I feel that the angle of incidence of bullets on the helmet needs to be taken into account in some way for damage dealt and durability. Shooting down into someone and nailing their helmet flat-on, only to have your 1-2HKO negated is frustrating, and having your helmet pop off after 1 hit that barely grazed it is also frustrating.

[distant cape]

There are simply no armour angle simulations in the game

This sounds more like a complaint that this game lacks a system that another game has

If such a thing were introduced, I don’t think oki would balance it such that it made helmets any better.

[vestal flame]

Yeah, given everything is cube idk if it would do much anyways tbh

Imo, having a way to restore armor or make it less of a "one-use" thing is more important to balance, either by making them damage reduction but unbreakable, or adding ways to restore armor

[keen badger]

Yeah I disagree fully with this. It’s a game, a bullet hits an enemy in the head it does a certain amount of damage. Taking into account the angle would be unintuitive.

Especially with how much and quickly people turn, it would just feel inconsistent

[random marten]

I feel like making it so that support can carry an armor resupply box and assault can carry a small armor resupply kit would be a good temporary solution but in the long term a rework to how armor works is definitely necessary.

[merry whale]

I like this idea

[keen badger]

Yeah I agree

[shrewd crescent]

I've recently become of the opinion that heavy ammo kit should have a small amount of armor points, while assault and assault only gets dedicated armor kit with a large number of armor points.
it reduces how many supports will carry ammo and will give them too much sustain i feel like

[dense juniper]

Remove armor till its reworked

[merry whale]

depends how the armor replenishment would work

[long pollen]

real exo suit when

[proper sundial]

we need the bear armor exo suit

[civic hedge]

Parrotting the suggestion for permanent armor and damage resistance again. I think this would do absolute wonders knowing how steep the speed penalty is.

[long pollen]

I engaged Oki about this last week and he had concerns about making TTK inconsistent and the such. If there's interest I can look up the replies later today. IMO current armor already does that so I was thinking about writing up a #1170727258537865367 thread addressing his points more specifically.

[civic hedge]

I personally don't understand what would be the concern of making TTK inconsistent if armor is supposed to modulate it to begin with imo

This is already knowing that TTK in general is very low across the board imo

One way or another, I feel like armor just needs a buff in general as none of the drawbacks make it worth it for how little of an impact it might have currently (besides the exo helmet)

[long pollen]

I agree. Seems like a very weird circular argument, but those were his words.

[signal venture]

I like circles

[random marten]

Armor should work like this:
Guns have a multiplier for how much damage gets through each level of armor(e.g. 0.9 for assault rifles, 0.8 for SMGs...), and armor has a level value that ranges from 1 to 4. The damage that you take is base damage times penetration multi to the power of armor lvl (dmg*(pen^lvl))

  Armor Ideas: 

Light Chest armor options:

Standard: 1 level of armor covering most of torso.

Plate carrier: level 2 armor covering only the center of the torso. (Assault only)

Medium Chest:

Standard: 2 levels of armor covering most of torso

Plate carrier: 3 levels covering only the center and 1 lvl on the back (Assault only)

Heavy Chest:

Standard: Lvl 3 covering most of torso, lvl 1 covering groin

Plate carrier: lvl 4 over center, lvl 2 in back, lvl 1 over most of the rest 1.

Exo Chest(Support only ofc):
Level 4 in all areas currently protected, lvl 2 over groin, lvl 1 on arms and knees.

Helmets:

Medium Helmet: Lvl 1 over normal areas

Heavy Helmet options:

Standard: Lvl 2 over normal areas

Face shield variant (assault & support only): Lvl 2 over normal areas, clear lvl 1 face shield over... face, has significantly slower aim speed.

Exo helmet options(support only ofc):

Standard: Lvl 3 over normal areas, face shield is "only" lvl 2.

Face shield-less variants: Doesn't have a face shield but noticably faster aim speed.

Alright, there's my third idea so far.

[twin hazel]

what the hell levels are you even using?

[random marten]

Wdym? Do you mean that level 4 armor should stop 95% of dmg from ARs and lvl 3 should stop 95% from SMGs(rather than ~35% and ~48% respectively) as if they reflected the Department of Justice ones often used in the US.

[grave shard]

oh god the formatting

[twin hazel]

lvl one would stop a bb gun. maybe a .22 if you are far enough away.

not even worth using as flak armor

[random marten]

These aren't meant to reflect the DoJ categories

[twin hazel]

so we are back to my orgional question. Wtf are these "levels"?

[random marten]

Abstractions

[twin hazel]

also this formatting sucks

its legitimately hard for me to read

[random marten]

Tl;dr: Make armor not break and make player damage be
gun dmg * gun penetration factor ^ armor level

[random marten]

Alright what do you think now?

[twin hazel]

I think armor would need to break if we are wanting to add percentage damage mitigation

fixing it would work, as well as not having the downsides of the armor after it does so

this means a longer life is harder, because otherwise getting mediced would basically mean a full reset every 5 seconds. which while not much is even faster than squad spawning right now. (still want squad spawning gone)

[long pollen]

Can make the mitigation work as a general modifier to HP change so it works both ways, slower to die but slower to heal as well

[twin hazel]

possible, but sounds like a lot of work when repair could do job easier, at the very least as a stopgap

[long pollen]

Sorry but how is adding a completely new interaction easier than just modifying the rate at which existing actions happen?

[twin hazel]

the armor system is litearlly just hp, and we already have a thrown box that does that. just change the target.

[long pollen]

Is your box going to instantly repair it? If not, is the helmet going magically reappear the moment you get a single tick of armor back? Will it repair in parallel with the body armor or one after the other? If so, in which order and why?

[twin hazel]

have you never used the thrown medic box before?

[merry whale]

hmm, Personally I like the idea of a progression bar

Nice timing DD

[long pollen]

You hold and then you start healing, it's not an instant health back is it?

[merry whale]

the medkit is a progression like the bandage

when on ground

[twin hazel]

you hold, then after a second, you take a certain amount of HP healed.

its slower but allows you/the medic to do other things

the numbers are up in the air right now. but I don't see the problem with the armor reappearing as its repaired even if not at full health. to avoid situations of shooting what looks like an unarmored guy who actually does have armor that isn't fully repaired.

[long pollen]

You still haven't answered how you will allocate the armor between body and helmet. You realise this also entails having a UI element to communicate to the player whether their armor is now fully repaired or still has some points left to go and how much?

[twin hazel]

yeah, a progress bar

for HP

not like we don't have one of those already

I was thinking chest then helmet but honestly I don't care how that goes, just that it does. If I'm repairing I at least think I am safe due to the time involved

[long pollen]

Bar isn't interrupted by damage is it? So now I can stand on some roof while constantly channeling armor back and being healed by a medic simultaneously

Seems like a pretty good deal for support, not sure what the rest of people will think about that

Will also be fun to see how long it takes for people to say it's too slow and demand enabling right-click refills on the move as medkit and ammo boxes already have

[twin hazel]

there is a second or 2 to take a small amount of hp back say 10-20 health(from the medic box)

like I said numbers are up in the air.

[long pollen]

You said it was easier. It is clearly not.

[twin hazel]

anyway, you can easily out damage both even if the 20 health from the medic box also applies

[long pollen]

I don't mind whatever solution they go for as long as armor starts doing something

[twin hazel]

"it's clearly not"

[long pollen]

Also, that still won't help the fact that armor does nothing half of the time thanks to the huge exposed limbs

[twin hazel]

that's a separate problem

[long pollen]

I'd just have the full resupply boxes at every capture point

[twin hazel]

ah yes that would be fun to deal with

5 seconds or less and its a respawn for anyone medics pickup

[long pollen]

Have you ever tried that? They have a cooldown to prevent repeated use.

[twin hazel]

could work if we had to run logi, but we don't have that

[twin hazel]

oh then it would be useless 95% of the time

[long pollen]

So now you have all the numbers? That was fast

[twin hazel]

ah your gonna be that kind of asshole

either the box is used often enough to keep pace with the high-speed action we have

or people will just respawn

one is op

one is useless

[long pollen]

I mean, make up your mind, you want a simple solution, which this literally is: take something that already exists and paste it around the map. And it needs no new numbers because those are already baked into the thing.

[twin hazel]

I would like something that would actually work and be useful beyond that one time you are still alive after a fight and can reup everything without dying

cooldowns like 30 seconds right?

[long pollen]

Yes, more than enough to walk outside, get into a fight, bandage and walk back inside to rearm. Specially if you're wearing armor.

[twin hazel]

if the fight was like 1 dude sure

its also not gonna be in a defenable area, at least not one that is easily turned into that

or something that could be destroyed

that removes alot of points of being able to have one. it's just squad spawning but slightly worse

[dense juniper]

Remove armor already

[shrewd crescent]

Hmm
beyond specialized assault chestplates being added and assault gaining access to heavy helmet, armor repair kit...

What else?

[shrewd crescent]

right now, given the explosives spam, would it be reasonable to make some sort of antiblast armor?

[dense juniper]

Removing it

[shrewd crescent]

why lmao

[merry whale]

hmm, Suppose a question is how does it work vs the explosives

to clarify, currently

second would be how would it differ (assuming armor helps against explosions)

[shrewd crescent]

Nonimpact protection
Flak type vest has same protection class of the type, eg same armor level of medium normal, but penalties 1 class higher.
in exchange it greatly reduces blast damage, until with something like heavy you take like 60-80% less and can barely survive nearby grenades.

[shrewd crescent]

I feel like armor needs to be more tsken into consideration
reintroduce the armor damage mechanic or something
scale armor at like
20/45/65/85
and so that buys you 0-1/1-2/2-3/3-4 extra hits before the armor fails
in consequence, increase headshot multiplier to 2 base across the board, slightly boost close quarters damage to ensure that hits to kill for assault rifles don't fall below like 6-7 or something against heavy/exo armored enemies in most cases

make SMGs less effective against armor, but maybe reduce the amount of jumping around and movement so legmunching/facemunching is viable?

[dense juniper]

6-7 are you trying to piss everyone off

[shrewd crescent]

heavy armor and exo might need some additional downsides if it's to get that extreme, true
but there's also a factor of how much armor matters
if tou boost base damage it gets to be where sometimes you nail a guy a frw times in the srms and maybe once in the chest
or nail him in the face and drop him after only two to three hits
other times life hates you and you nail the shit out of a guy with like ten bullets but some actually missed and you hit his limbs all of those times so you did low damage + you hit his chestplate several times to break it

there's also the thing where right now with heavy armor it is like 5-6 hits

[dense juniper]

Its 2

[shrewd crescent]

in terms of total hits to kill against a person
its like 3-4 hits against a person and the armor breakpoint sits at like 2 so you end up with 5-6 with 7 in absolute worst case situations iirc?

like im not making this mech warrior online lmao
im not gonna impose realistic body armor on you folks

so like, most assault rifles deal 30 armor damage
35-40 body damage
early dropoff start, maybe at like 50 meters, but much more gradual out to like 150 before it starts being more aggressive.
so like an M4 should kill a support in like
what, 4 hits breaks armor and 3 kills the guy?

egh
this is the forever problem of armor in fps
hoe do you mske it matter while also not pissing off the cod crowd who demands 3-4 stk and like 0.5s ttk

... wait a second I scaled this wrong

ok so
assuming like 25-30 armoe damage for rifles
instant break of light armor and minor damage, 4-3 hits kill
and with exo...
3 hits before break, 4 hits to break, with spillover damage, so like you dtill get something like 6 hits assuming no limb shots
but that's the thought
if you like, halved armor and armor damage, then scything out someone's limbs would be more impactful
...hmm.

[keen badger]

Bold of you to call him a hoe but I have to agree

[shrewd crescent]

it also inherently pivots against how the gsme has introduced armor (different levels? types? different damsge types?) and how the playermodels are set up

in summsry...
pain.

[dense juniper]

Remove it shrimple

[distant cape]

there are no different damage types as far as armour is concerned.

all bullets are treated equally

[merry whale]

suppose a question is, are limbs still a bypass option?

[merry whale]

helmets generally are two hits tops

the chests go up to 62 on exo (43 on heavy) so like 2-3 hits esh generally

currently

otherwise keep in mind most guns are a 1.5x HS Multiplier with SMGs & semi/full automatic pistols at 1.2x and snipers at around 2x

[merry whale]

depends on the spread damage I suppose

assuming they break all of a exo with something, that is nearly double base HP

[shrewd crescent]

heavy helmet is maybe two shots with a rifle
usually even normal helmet is like buying you one or no extra damage
and with a 2x headshot mult increase that means even the M4 deals what, 68 damage? even a little spillover damage from the helmet breaking
whoops

[merry whale]

so like 8 taps assuming they break ALL your armor with a 4 tapper & no headshots

[merry whale]

did say two hits tops

[shrewd crescent]

Iiirc didnt Oki say ARs wew 1.7x or something?

[merry whale]

to my knowledge they are 1.5x

[shrewd crescent]

adding complexity is usually fraught with players complaining.
:P

[shrewd crescent]

yeah
and most armors are pretty vulnerable to being shot through the side
and lap
so that's... something.

[merry whale]

otherwise the helmets are vulernable to face

[shrewd crescent]

on one hand with a proposed 35 damage M4 with 25 armor damage
you get like 2 hits to zap a 45 medium chestplate, 3 to drop the person
on the other hand you could accidentally kick the rifle up into their face once, deal an instant 70 damage and shave two bullets off the time to kill if not sometimes instakilling them alltogether.
and what's limb mult?

but this introduces a small measure of snipers everywhere problem
like, if every gun has 2x headshot minimum, then if you're not moving too fast people are gonna potshot the shit out of you

[grave shard]

3sk m4 💀

[shrewd crescent]

shifting a bit of effectiveness to armor
the idea is that the damage begins a bit higher and drops off a bit earlier at like 50, but drops off slower until like 150 where it really starts cratering, so as to not step on DMR toes.

[grave shard]

dmg already drops off at 50m

[shrewd crescent]

huh
i swear it was at like 75-100 or something start and then...?
ill check later i guess

[merry whale]

err 35 = 3 tap profile ya know

and at 700 rpm vs the current 600-650 rpm

[grave shard]

before trying to fix the current balance with new shit you should learn the current lmao

[merry whale]

otherwise AR standard dropoff is 50m

you have the scar H & such at like 150 esh

LMGs/LSWs are 100

[shrewd crescent]

hmm
if we want to retain current damage...
what, it's 30 or something?

[merry whale]

it is currently 30 damage up to 50m & 700 rpm

[past drum]

animu gurl pfp UwU

[shrewd crescent]

https://tenor.com/view/barrel-i-hate-you-screw-you-kicking-anger-gif-22768982

[past drum]

no u

:3

[shrewd crescent]

...hmm. maybe for consistency's sake some of the guns should behave more like the M4, damagewise...?
regardless:
30/30 armor/health?
45 medium breaks in 2, spillover 15. 85 health, 3 hits kill.
because accounting for worst case, that might end up being longer or shorter

[merry whale]

this assumes no arm hits

also grabbing these

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1152896217517391902/1159621701945012234/8mb.video-8QQ-VvOsqcHi.mp4?ex=6531b0de&is=651f3bde&hm=833de09e931c6ea935c9a91050c8848db934474922f1ab2b40c0f0ba8b5894dc&

But you can see how much the arms cover the chest

[shrewd crescent]

yup
and thats another issue
arms are like, 0.8x right? something like that?

[grave shard]

limbs are 1.0x

[shrewd crescent]

what
I swear to god they take less damage in the range? or is that outdated?

[merry whale]

1x

everything takes less damage at far enough distance, minus from snipers

snipers do more

[shrewd crescent]

okay then
topkek
ill check again in the range but if this is real then lol leemao

[merry whale]

but you have 4 hitboxes effectively

two being the armor

than head

& the last is everything else

head is weapon based

but 1.2x to like 2x as stated prior

everything else is 1x

[merry whale]

also ya beat me to the punch lol

[daring badge]

Old ass concept that never went anywhere

[past drum]

tldr ill just shoot ur legs and arms nerd

[primal notch]

add something that lets you know how much armor you have or whatever plates you have

[gleaming needle]

welp getting told to put armor suggestions into feedback ig or at least that's how it seems

Right now in battlebit armor is in a awful state. When people choose armor they normally always look at how it impacts ammo and move speed. Rarely ever do they care about the added health it give you.

What to know why... it breaks normally brakes after 1 fight or its completely Ignored by shooting the larger area of unarmored parts of your body.

first way to fix how poor armor works is to completely rework how it takes damage and breaks and how it stopes damage.

I believe armor needs to stop damage through a % and not just by adding more health (these % should not affect how many bullets it take to kill except exo i believe it should match bullets to kill with heavy armor not including the exo helmet in this as it should still cover 1 shot head shots) and break when that take a set number of hit (with helmets taking 1/2 the shots to break)
example:
○ light armor takes 10 shots to break
○ medium and recon armor takes 15 shots to break
○ heavy armor takes 25 shots to break
○ exo armor takes 40 shots to break

To fix the problem with legs and arms being so easy to exploit making armor very. Make leg and arm have armor slots.
example

○ medium arm and leg armor
takes 5 shots to break
damage reduction matches medium helmet
only covers elbows and knees
negatives stats are 1/2 of what is on the medium helmet
○ heavy arm and leg armor
takes 10 shots to break
damage reduction matches heavy helmet
cover whole top portion of arms and legs
negatives states are 1/2 of what is on heavy helmet
○ exo arm and leg armor
takes 20 shots to break
damage reduction matches 1/2 of heavy helmet
covers all of the arms and legs except elbows and knees
negatives states are 1/2 of exo helmet except movement speed its 1/2 of heavy helmet

[supple pulsar]

cs had something similar

tho instead of damage reduction on armor

the reduction depends on the guns penetration power

armor in cs is hp

but

if a gun lets say has 50% armor pen

50% goes thru hp while 50% goes thru armor tanking it

[gleaming needle]

tbh the biggest thing it it needs reworked

It can be anything at this point lol

[supple pulsar]

but lets say gun has has 100% pen it wont break the armor or damge it and directly damages your hp

tho technically bb can replicate it since we do have armor damage stat on guns

[vestal flame]

I think I threw this out earlier, but it being equivalent to something similar to shield in Apex Legends (a seperate bar restored with a seperate item, that you would have alongside bandages) would be something I'd accept personally. It would be a quick way to make it more viable without a ton of new mechanics or gimmicks

Maybe allow each player (excluding medics) to carry 6 bandages/plates total, or have a few presets or something like that

I like the % damage reduction too because it doesn't require too much extra stuff to be tacked on to make it work, just changes how the armor works and that's about it

[gleaming needle]

that's basically how it is now excluding repairing armor

and more unarmored parts are exposed then armored from the front

[vestal flame]

Yeah literally just make it so you can trade out 1 bandage for a 1 full(?) armor repair and I think it would just be balanced or closer to tbh

Would make players actually come to medics more too

Which is a win-win in my book

[gleaming needle]

not really most armors are less then 50 health so why take that over a bandage

so its not really a fix

[hasty magnet]

Gonna rehash the unpopular but correct opinion. Armor should stop SMG Damage period.

[twin hazel]

just make it based on irl levels of armor then

[hasty magnet]

Even Properlty layed Paper can stop Most pistol/SMG Rounds. their are rare exceptions to the IS SMG=Can Defeat armor.

The games just a spaz fest of SMG players using them like assault rifles at all ranges.

[dense juniper]

[noble dune]

I think the problem with adding health bars or repairability to armor is that it'll just end up being what is effectively a second health bar you have to manage

[twin hazel]

it already is, except the only way we get it back is dying

[noble dune]

Which is fine in a game with generally longer lives or inventory management like a battle royale game but with how low TTK's are it would just take away to have to sit down somewhere for even longer while you heal up another health bar

[noble dune]

Yeah the way it kind of works at the moment is that it's more of just an attrition thing, the longer you live the less likely you are to be running around with all your armor on and the more vulnerable you are to a bullet

[twin hazel]

yeah sure, if I had the option to repair somewhere, or by a teammate it would be nice, because having all the downsides of wearing armor with no armor sucks

[noble dune]

I think it'd be easier to just remove those downsides as you lose the pieces, saving the actual replenishing for supply drops

Though I'm also kind of fond of the idea of just not having armor destruction at all, simplifying it into flat damage reduction based on what category you're wearing

Not sure if just a flat damage reduction would work though, since the increase in TTK for those sets of armor would be flat regardless of how much damage it's taking per shot. Which doesn't really fit the idea of armor being better at stopping low damage shots than high damage ones

A multiplier wouldn't work either, since that would have the opposite effect of affecting high damage shots more than low damage ones

[twin hazel]

if we lost the downsides, and could repair on airdrops or at base, I would be at least content

[dense juniper]

Having no repair just makes it useless to anyone above a 1kd

[hasty magnet]

Stop thinking about making Armor more complex. just make it so SMG's cant pen it, force SMG scrubs to aim for your face only.

[dense juniper]

[noble dune]

Had a bit more of a think, poked around with some ideas, came up with this:

using System;
                    
public class Program
{
    public static float Remap(float val, float inMin, float inMax, float outMin, float outMax)
    {
        return outMin + (((val - inMin) / (inMax - inMin)) * (outMax - outMin));
    }

    public static void Main()
    {
        var penetrationCap = 100f;
        var armorValue = 10f;
        
        for (int damage = 0; damage <= 100; damage += 10)
        {
            var newDamage = Math.Floor(Math.Clamp(damage - Remap(damage, armorValue, penetrationCap, armorValue, 0), 0, damage));
            var diff = damage - newDamage;
            var percentage = damage > 0 ? Math.Truncate((diff / damage) * 100) : 100;

            Console.WriteLine($"Damage pre: {damage} post: {newDamage} reduction: {percentage}%");
        }
    }
}

Tl;dr damage goes in, anything at or below armorValue does 0% damage, anything at or above penetrationCap does 100% damage and everything in between falls somewhere in that range

Damage pre: 0    post: 0    reduction: 100%
Damage pre: 10   post: 0    reduction: 100%
Damage pre: 20   post: 11   reduction: 45%
Damage pre: 30   post: 22   reduction: 26%
Damage pre: 40   post: 33   reduction: 17%
Damage pre: 50   post: 44   reduction: 12%
Damage pre: 60   post: 55   reduction: 8%
Damage pre: 70   post: 66   reduction: 5%
Damage pre: 80   post: 77   reduction: 3%
Damage pre: 90   post: 88   reduction: 2%
Damage pre: 100  post: 100  reduction: 0%

[dense juniper]

Man really went through the effort of dropping code

[noble dune]

I got nothing better to do

[dense juniper]

😭

[noble dune]

Might as well put a bit more effort in and see if my vague idea actually works the way I think it does

[supple pulsar]

i suggested something similar but instead of armor pen its just armor has it fixed damage reduction per caliber or guntype

#1180345678740865094 message

[noble dune]

Yeah I read that earlier, imo the problem with having different pen values for different weapons/categories is that it's just going to add more values you need to balance

The idea with this is that you have your penetration 'cap' as a single global value, your armor value per armor category (none, light, medium, exo ect) and then it'll just scale itself based on the damage of whatever you're hitting them with

A weapon that does more damage automatically has an easier time punching through armor, whereas lower damage weapons are affected more harshly

There's also the issue of category-based multipliers giving weapons with lower damage an advantage, since they'll be affected less than weapons that fire slower but hit harder

And if you account for all of that you're basically looking at individual weapon multipliers, at which point you might as well try to standardize it and save yourself the trouble

[dense juniper]

Something needs to happen soon tho current armor is just ass in every way

[supple pulsar]

im fine removing armor but people didnt like that kek

[merry whale]

depends more on breakpoints

[noble dune]

Yeah I haven't considered those at all with this, probably something to look at more later

[merry whale]

because in the end

if I hit you for 34 or 49, you still die in 3 hits

[dense juniper]

Best way is probably just going the pen route since everyone wants to piss and shit about armor being bonus hp

[distant cape]

SMGs would need a major buff to be competent if this were implemented

Do you have anything in mind?

[hasty magnet]

SMG need a nerf not a buff. I personally used the stock UMP 45 for the challenges, even with no attachments but a red dot, I easily started to clap dudes. Only dying to other people using various SMG.
SMG are just a waste of coding Oki made and now has to balance them to work according to “gamer” needs and not “logical thinking”

My idea was simple. SMG just can’t pen body armor above none and light armor. If you have a mid, heavy, ranger, Exo. They can’t break your armor. They have to focus down shooting you in the face and knocking your helmet off before they can kill you. High skill sealing of a pretty much high skill tier weapon type.

[distant cape]

Definitely disagree. They have been nerfed a lot over time.

[hasty magnet]

Nerfed the wrong way. Because Oki hasn’t actually learned how things work. Running of gaming and Dev knowledge. Good great got this far. Now go and learn the very available history of weapons ballistics and development of body armor. The setting and design he’s run with now and so close to the trash can games he was trying to avoid… I digress.

Simple answer, current, with how the games set up, not nerfing or buffing anything, just change how small caliber weapons like pistols and SMG, effect body armor.

“Oh but people will complain about it.” Good means you did your damn job as a Dev. Survive, adapt, overcome, it’s not just a military slogan it’s literally the way people get better in the games they play.

[hushed panther]

i think SMGs are in a pretty good spot right now

they're extremely good in CQC, but struggle hard at range. they have a very clear niche and downside

[hasty magnet]

Thats not my personal experiance. SMG are dangerous at all ranges outside sniper range, and event then ive annoyed snipers with tap fire from well over 300 meters away. I might have just been throwing fast moving nerf darts at them by that point. but i was experimenting and he was clueless as hell.

And not one single SMG either. Ive done this kind of derping around with all of them outside the EVO

Caz EVO is just a Reskin of the vector in The form of a bullet hose.

[hushed panther]

if you're dying to SMGs past 20m-40m then that's kind of a skill issue

you have far less damage fall-off than they do

[hasty magnet]

Im not gonna argue that being true. But A shithead in a house 140 meters away spraying me dead on the Flag of F in Tensa town. Yeah they are still broken BECAUSE!

People learned to Adapt, over come, and get good.

And thats why the SMG's need a nerf.

[hushed panther]

then how about you follow suit

[hasty magnet]

"Just get good. use SMG. Its fine." No. Im not a Meta Chaser. I like my weapons all kinds But if I 'HAVE' to use a weapon to avoid others dudes with the same weapon, Its Meta play and thats trash.

[grave shard]

damn xD

[hasty magnet]

everyone, EVERYONE. In the Close test ran vector.

It was a trend.

[hushed panther]

okay? and the vector was nerfed

it's extremely niche now

[hasty magnet]

OH Thats that one team that plays Comp! grab your vector

[hushed panther]

damage fall-off starting at 10m is super debilitating

[grave shard]

140m is such hyperbole, that was pre nerf mp5, everything else didn't do that before and certainly not now

[hasty magnet]

Dude... Your saying the issue and not thinking about it.

[hushed panther]

SMGs should not be unusable at range; they should be weaker and non-ideal, and they already are

if you're losing to SMGs at range, that means you're just bad. you have the advantage with an assault rifle, battle rifle, LMG, DMR, etc

[hasty magnet]

Hold up. we are off topic, this is about Armor, not SMG's Armor just should Stop SMG and pistol rounds. End of story.

[hushed panther]

nah. you're just mad and want to nerf SMGs into oblivion out of spite

[hasty magnet]

Or Their cheating, Or they are The closet Pro gamers hiding in pubs, or they are what ever.

Doesn't matter. I personally have done the same this to other people.

I have killed someone well over 200 meters away with the UMP.

Because I can aim.

[hasty magnet]

And im not skilled like others in the closed test

[grave shard]

🧢

[hasty magnet]

No cap. ill get a screen cap.

[grave shard]

sure, go ahead
make sure you run a range finder tho - to out yourself as either not being able to tell distances or being dishonest

[hasty magnet]

Brain dead gamer pic BTW

dude im pulling my service states from the game. on the guns ive done it with. not the shooting range. I know that stupid trick, Ive been here a while.

[grave shard]

hmmmmmmmmm, good ol' 1hp enemy who got "lasered" by an smg at 150m+

not even bipodded ultimax is reliable past 150m on a full hp target

[hasty magnet]

What? are you brain dead? Ive done that plunty.

THATS LITTERALLY HOW LMGS WORK!

[grave shard]

[hasty magnet]

Now. NOW!

I will admit when im wrong.

My longest SMG kills Are not stupid range.

Im seeing that.

[grave shard]

i use the ultimax with a passion and past 150m it is unreliable on full hp or god forbid, armored players

[hasty magnet]

Tap fire the helmet off, then spray them.

4 round tap is bad, 2 round tap is deadly

[grave shard]

yeah nahh not when playing the game

[hasty magnet]

What do you mean? Post up!

Find a whole in the wall, a window, a tiny spot to look threw. Tap tap

anyway!

Not armor talk!

[grave shard]

armor is ass, that doesn't mean smgs are op...

[hasty magnet]

Im not having True come in and delete this conversation

No it means Armor is ASS so make it not ass. Doesn't directly effect SMG's as a nerf, it just means SMG's have to work harder to get their kills.

WHY is this even a problem, SMG users like the challange so whats it to themto run head shots only.

They have done it in the past.

[grave shard]

btw this is my lmg usage

[hasty magnet]

See! you can get the long boy kills

[grave shard]

lsws are between 112m and 142m

[grave shard]

but be honest, they aren't consistent, the m249 requires burst firing (on 700rpm that's super fucking weird)

[hasty magnet]

Weird, but not impossible.

[grave shard]

but...

not impossible =/= consistent

[hasty magnet]

Also. I see what happened to my SMG State. This was the gun that i got my near 100m kill at.

Fucking Oki moving P90 around.

[hasty magnet]

Consistancy is the impossibility of any large battle field.

[grave shard]

p90 stayed, PP and mp7 got fixed

[grave shard]

i hope you understand what i'm trying to say

anyways smgs all got worse range performance via recoil, damage and firerate so...

[hasty magnet]

Yes I get it.

But this talk isn't about SMG's its about Armor

My idea still stands.

Armor should stop small slow bullets.

helmets are NOT included here

[grave shard]

yes it would, that would be realistic

but this game isn't realistic in the slightest, not paced tactically either

[hasty magnet]

Yeah... Oki kinda made a mistake their. Turned this into the game he was trying to avoid it being like.

Heard more people i say to try the game out say it just a battle field 4 Roblox Clone...

Which is annoying... but not inaccurate currently

[grave shard]

the game is not supposed to be a milsim
it's not supposed to be cod either

there will be a milsim mode soon™️

[hasty magnet]

Im aware. But before that, Oki would need to fix, Armor, vehicles, Gadget. He's got to many to go threw to be a reasonable ask.

for examiple. WDF is with the IFVs?

They get into a fight with each other, both start getting kicked around and spun around like weightless tops with guns on them.

[grave shard]

well still 1.5 to 2 more years of early access to come...

[hasty magnet]

Or tanks. WHY is gods green earth are they so under armored and protected.

They may as well have given us the Tank destoryer IFV instead of the Abrums, and the Russian equal to that looks about the same.

"nah lets put the worlds more powerful armored vehical, with less destroyed count then any other Tank in its class this modern era.

against the Russian T-90. The russian close try at a world class tank.

Ack. Not armor talk. ill stop.

[supple pulsar]

https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1180345678740865094

[hasty magnet]

thank you

[vestal flame]

Too seeby tired rn to fully conprehend, but big kudos for throwing out solid concepts with numbers, we love to see it

[hazy zenith]

Losing armor, especially helmet needs to remove the speed penalty or at least half it.

[vestal flame]

makes more sense to lose half imo - No penalty for running heavy armor a lot of the time if you just lose the downside after it's used

[twin hazel]

let us run at normal armor speed after its dead maybe?

[distant cape]

Maybe one tier down would be fair? For helmet and body

[twin hazel]

so No armor/Light/Ranger/Normal/Heavy/Exo? I think heavy and exo should go to normal, and the others go a tier lower(barring no armor for obvious reasons)

[distant cape]

That benefits exo more than it benefits heavy which I think is unnecessary

Heavy doesn’t have much of a place in the game rn imo, due to mediocre stats but also since people tend to pick between holding down areas and brawling in buildings in their loadout specialisation

[twin hazel]

right so everyone go's down to one better level of "armor" stats, but exo goes down two because its downsides are more than every other class. heavy and exo can go down two to normal.

[distant cape]

Well, it’s upsides are more as well :p

I’d argue that heavy’s downsides are the worst in proportion to its upsides aside from mag count

[twin hazel]

its upsides are, 2-3 more bullets from low damage primaries, and one extra shot to the head. Heavy does the same (except sniper headshots) but you are faster and have more ammo.

[distant cape]

I’m just saying the protection heavy armour offers is lower than it should be considering the move speed penalty it gives, so I don’t think exo deserves a stronger buff than it does

[twin hazel]

percentage wise maybe. you're losing anything good it might have offered anyway

[distant cape]

If this is percentage-wise, then what-wise are you talking about I wonder?

[wheat falcon]

The problem is - you showing average TTK increase. Only If all bullets hit strip all armor and then kill you. Rn a lot of bullets hit non protected legs and arms. You get full damage from hitting whose parts. That's drastically reduce it's effectiveness in TTK reduction.
The second problem with armor, then it breaks - it's useless now, that's all. However the movement speed penalty is permanent until you respawn again

[distant cape]

no, this is with a 50% limb shot rate

this is not assuming the shots all hit the armour

limb shots are most common, followed by body shots followed by headshots

[wheat falcon]

Feels what something wrong, Imo. Especially helmet defence values with empty chest plate

[distant cape]

do it yourself if you like, you'll get the same results.

it is pretty simple

[wheat falcon]

What proportion of limb-chest-head did you used?

[distant cape]

50%, 32.9%, 17.1%

the shot simulation is literally just this

all I did is count the stks for all weapons against each armour types on a large scale

[wheat falcon]

limbshot_ratio and headshot_ratio constant's are not displayed tho

[wheat falcon]

^

[distant cape]

Yes, I didn't screenshot the whole program.

[wheat falcon]

Also I believe there's need in checking best and worst case scenarios for corresponding armor class. I think I'll do it myself in a spare time.

The thing that analysis doesn't count howerer - armor isn't reparable between encounters. First engagement support have a lot of advantage, second encounter he is in disadvantage, unlike his non armored buddy.

[distant cape]

well, this includes both of those

it includes all possible scenarios for approximately how likely they are to occur

[wheat falcon]

Ah, ok then. Less work for me, I guess

[distant cape]

this just simulates killing players 20,000 times in a row (more than enough to find all hit combinations) with the chances described, and finds the average of all of the trials, for every gun, for every armour combination, and prints them all out in a neat thing that I put in the spreadsheet

[wheat falcon]

Amazing work

[distant cape]

probably the first actual compliment I've gotten from doing this stuff

most people call it insanity :p

[wheat falcon]

Nah, you did a great job. There's a lot for crying and whining about balancing and how it FEELS. No one taking responsibility to at least simulate things and come up with numbers.

[distant cape]

thanks

These numbers aren't perfect for several reasons though

firstly in that they assume every gun (other than pistols) is equally likely to be used

and secondly that every shot is independant of every other (not true)

I think doing better on that front would require oki (or, perhaps a custom server host) to give a ton of data on where people get hit to draw correlations from

[wheat falcon]

That was surprising to see how underwhelming heavy armor is. who would have thougt

Especially heavy helmet

[distant cape]

exo gets a bonus above it just from full head coverage in addition to raw stats

since this assumes half the headshots hit the face for non-exo helmets

[wheat falcon]

Even aggregated data about hit probability from real servers would be a leap in right direction. Just simple as combined hit probabilities

Like you do now, but with plausible probabilities

[distant cape]

Mmhm. With a decent amount it would be easy to predict it over a whole series of previous shots

Could even do it for each weapon to account for how people use them differently

Of course it would only be a very slight improvement. But whatever

[wheat falcon]

In theory - yes, only slight. In practise - I'd bet a $20 the difference is massive. Because your dats doesn't consider multiple engages. Situations like - I got a close fight, patched up, got next fight and died, got revived and died againg a way too frequent

Your data, while useful, gives perspective only for first encounter after respawn

[distant cape]

Oh yeah, I wasn’t even thinking about how it would be possible to track for a player over their whole lifetime

That would be great

[versed rain]

air force helmet is misplaced on the head

[vestal flame]

any chance we can get a screenshot? I don't have it

[versed rain]

well yes ofc, silly of me i know im nit picking but it cant be unseen, here is compared to another helmet. look above the forehead

it needs to be pushed back a litle bit

[versed rain]

@sharp herald

[random marten]

Can we get these as actual suggestions we can vote on?