Claymore - Feedback

[flint portal]

Please keep it on topic, and civil, we want serious feedback

• No gifs
• No 'skill issue'

[heavy python]

I don’t know exactly what the answer is, but claymores and AP mines feel like they’re a bit too similar right now.

I remember hearing someone say claymores used to be very different to the way they are now but got changed, would anyone be able to explain that to me?

[lusty laurel]

mines used to despawn when you died
claymores used to not despawn at all, so you could pepper dozens of them across the map
with the 1.8.1 update, they both got a limit of 4 per player, and mines no longer disappear when you die

[heavy python]

I was here for that, I mean even earlier. I heard people talking about “old claymores” even before the update which placed the limit of 4 on mines and claymores.

[left lichen]

currently claymores offer a wider activation area at a cost of being more notable

[fast flower]

only being able to place 4 claymores is not very good, most people see a claymore and destroy it instantly. Claymores are not an item i pick as there are just better things to use. If the limit was changed back to the original, or a limit of possibly 15 to 20 it would make it much more viable and fun.

[lusty laurel]

a limit of 20 claymores per player would only be fun for the person placing them and no one else

you just have to be more thoughtful with your placement now. put them in areas that enemies are most likely to trigger them, rather than "who gives a shit, place them everywhere"

[winged basin]

that was absolutely awful 4 claymore are more than enough for what they are supposed to do.
Mines however could be increased to a limit of like 6

[green mulch]

• Re-work claymore AoE so that it only does damage in front of the claymore.
• Let players interact with claymores to diffuse/switch them.
• Remove claymore limit.

Claymores used to be fun because they enabled players to make chaotic mine fields and booby trapped fortified fortresses. They're not difficult to spot, but the lack of dynamic counter-play made encouraged mine spam as there was little to no downside to either haphazardly place mines or place them in awkward positions where players can spot them, but not deal with them without taking guaranteed damage.

On the other hand, the mine limit heavily killed the chaos that made BattleBit stand out, and it killed the outplay potential from smaller squads or individual players.

Letting players hijack enemy claymores/mines will now turn them into a double edged sword. If a player or a squad has trapped a high grassy area, this can now be turned against them as there's a chance that an enemy stealthily switched/hijacked a few, and the players will run through being none the wiser. With this, the current limitations will no longer be needed, as players will quickly learn the downsides of haphazard placement.

These changes won't just make mine spam an unviable strategy while bringing back player agency and individual power, but they will also add an interesting dynamic to the game.

[winged basin]

the mine limit was the top best change this game has yet had

especially now when enemy can kill you with friendly mines

nothing about claymore spam was fun or an interesting dynamic

[green mulch]

That's a very subjective take.

Mines were what allowed solo players like me to become a one man army deep in enemy territory. They also let me solo-handedly fortify my spawn beacons as squad leader. I've literally had matches where squads would take the entire game to take out our beacon because of how meticulous my mazes were made in conjunction with a trap around every corner.

I would design passageways with the explicit purpose of luring enemies there and had my traps placed exactly where I knew they would go.

[winged basin]

and that's why they needed to go

[green mulch]

The amount of times I've been called autistic was... something lmao.

That's where you and I differ in what we want from the game.

[winged basin]

a single player should not have the option to create such an annoyance to 20+ ppl with little effort

if we go by that logic lb needed no nerf too since it allowed solo players to become a one man army

that it made the game unfun for 100 other players doesn't matter

[green mulch]

The thing is, there is counterplay.

If a player can't have fun because they cannot adapt, then you don't go neutering the rest of the game.

Explosives, deconstruction, and RPG squads are labyrinth counters.

Outplaying is the name of the game.

[winged basin]

I can see increasing the mine limit to like 6 and/or adding a 'minefield' buildable that allows you to build extra mines with squad points (maybe even unlimited but that would need testing).
This would allow players like you that actually want to place a minefield instead of just spamming mines everywhere to build them with the cost of time and points.
These mines can only be placed in game modes where building is allowed and would keep those extra mines out of the smaller game modes. Furthermore you can't just spam them all while running around with their 0.3 sec deployment time to get free kills since you actually would need to stop and place them manually.

having mines every 5m is just straight up bad game design, no fun and has no 'counter play'

[green mulch]

I mean, back then I used the supply drop for my minefield.

If they limited the mines that you respawn with, I would have taken no issue with it.

[normal cradle]

Good vision and an Mp443 is the counter play

[winged basin]

you still spend half the game shooting mines so no its no counter play

[normal cradle]

You do get points for shooting mines though

[winged basin]

im not here to farm points from mines tho

i would play minesweeper if that would be my goal

[normal cradle]

Okay? Well then just carve a path through and keep going on your way.

[left lichen]

also grenades & other explosives

[winged basin]

now we are back at the beginning

[normal cradle]

Or just be careful

Step around them

[winged basin]

if i have to pay attention to mines every few m i can just shoot them. The issue is the same

[normal cradle]

What's the problem with having to pay a little attention?

The point of mines is to slow down advancing enemies and/or make them make a lot of noise

[winged basin]

yes but not on the entire map because 2 guys are spamming them while running

[left lichen]

I could see upping the cap for mines a bit to be honest

So like 6 AP & 8 claymores

[winged basin]

having more claymore than ap makes zero sense

[left lichen]

effectively APs are easier to hide to sum it up

[keen glade]

Ever since the nerfs I have maybe died to 5 claymores/mines combined so far. They're just way too easy to get rid of due to grenades and chain reactions. The big maps simply make having such a small amount (especially since everyone's moving to different locations) absolutely useless. Not to mention if you trigger a claymore its not even a guaranteed kill for that person, I sometimes run straight into them and will be fine and just gun the guy down right afterwards.

Most of the issues I saw people having with the mines/claymores was because some maps have issues with the cover being bushes that go for miles that you can't see through at all (Isle is the worst case for this) so everyone put their claymores/mines in them because its not practical to spend time searching every bush when those areas are the only real flanks. On some maps you can solve this issue by being able to blow up the bushes/trees (New District), but not every map allows you to do this.

Another issue is how all explosions go through floors so somebody could shoot your claymore/mine on the bottom floor and trigger all of them on the second floor potentially killing you and all your teammates. This could easily be solved by differentiating the types of explosions in the game though.

All of these issues stacking up with the fact that C4 exists I genuinely don't understand why you would choose claymores/mines unless you just want to goof around. You can see how bad it is in-game with people who used up their ammo literally just running up to you placing claymores/mines because of how useless they actually are for protecting an area.

[lusty laurel]

All of these issues stacking up with the fact that C4 exists

that's a C4 issue, not a mine/claymore issue, innit

mines are claymore are still very much usable, you just have to be thoughtful with them (which is why most people prefer to use C4, because it doesn't take any thought whatsoever)

[supple kiln]

Yeah, you can certainly use them to the extent that they at least deploy when you click your mouse. There's no actual situation where being thoughtful with C4 does not outperform mines.

"Thoughtful" mines = try and guess enemy behavior, hope your prediction becomes true and that they are distracted enough to fall for it

Thoughtful C4 = useful for sightlines, mobility and flanking, can use hit markers to check for enemies behind walls or outright kill them, ambush vehicles, etc.

So yeah, not only is it basically a braindead easy to use shotgun, it also offers far more versatility to anyone who actually cares to take advantage of it

Thoughtful mines, more like hopeful mines considering how easy they get triggered by any enemy who might be using nades or C4 to move through the area anyway.

Not to mention C4 is actually better at securing buildings because you can just blow stairs up once your team is set up in the upper floors and chuck it down at people trying to climb up.

Mines absolutely need to have their explosive resistance greatly buffed.

Additonally, the only way I see Claymores becoming a useful alternative over AP mines is by greatly extending their trigger range. Would be something of a nerf for open spaces since it would get triggered more often at non-lethal distances, but in places like stairwells, it would essentially be guaranteed damage to enemies that is unlikely to kill but enough to give occupants the upper hand.

Also, by properly treating the wire as such, it could for instance detonate when the wall it's pointing at gets breached, in addition to being placed farther away from doorways so they can't be peek-shot.

For instance, in this scenario, the person attempting to enter the room would be damaged by breaching either wall or going through the doorway, with no possibility to directly shoot the claymore. Obviously the counterplay here would be to stand farther back or off to the side when breaching walls, giving the occupant a bit more time to react.

[supple kiln]

With the proposal above, I think AP > Claymores would make sense. APs are easier to spot inside buildings, so their niche would be open spaces where you need more to effectively cover an area.

6 claymore limit seems sensible as it would allow protecting two entrances to a room by the above layout.

[left lichen]

aye fair there

my idea was with the current setup in mind

[left lichen]

might as well start with mutual exclusivity is a factor
You can't use both at the same time thus people will compare and contrast things that use the same slot or such

[vast zinc]

bring back unlimited claymores

[gleaming lintel]

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[green mulch]

What do you think of these changes?
#1152892810891112578 message

[vast zinc]

That's a fine compromise

[gleaming lintel]

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[left lichen]

(think of cod4's laser on the claymores)

[gleaming lintel]

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[left lichen]

well that is COD5

COD4 is the original modern warfare

[gleaming lintel]

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[keen glade]

Unless you think thoughtful is wedging the claymores/mines inside map geometry, I fail to see how they're useful with how obvious they are to spot. The day maps don't really have any colors that make the claymores blend in, contrasted with night maps where the opposite issue is in effect where you can't really see them at all since everything is dark. If I enter a white building contrasted with a giant black object in the room my eyes will naturally notice that because of the contrast.

Most FPS games do a system where the physical claymores are very small or blend in very well, but the actual lasers are a very obvious bright red and show the exact activation area. The lasers aren't accurate in Battlebit since they seem to try and adapt to where they're placed, but its extremely buggy and sometimes makes the activation area smaller, but never larger.

Claymores should be used as a means to block off a doorway/window while mines are meant for a more spammy nature trying to catch people going too fast off guard. Currently everyone uses them interchangeably because they virtually have no difference because they have the same effectiveness (also unlike other games where mines usually have a much larger AOE to compensate for the obviousness).

[analog bough]

that's the thing; you have to place them in spots where you can't react before you've already stepped into them. corners, hallways, under windows, et cetera. it doesn't matter how obvious claymores/mines look when your only way of avoiding them is expecting them beforehand (and even then, in spots like the basra ship hallways, you basically can't clear them with your gun, and have to use a grenade instead)
they're very effective when used correctly, but you can't just put them in random spots and expect them to get people

[normal cradle]

They should both have the same AoE but the claymore's only extends in a 60-180° cone.

[keen glade]

Yes I understand how to use them. The problem, again, is the hard colored visuals and how obvious they are (+some bugs). A claymore in MW2 can completely blend in with its environment, but if you took the second to even check for the lasers its not too difficult to find them, they work because they're stealthy enough. The issue is in Battlebits method of visual communication with claymores/mines is terrible because they are completely black, like hex code #000000 levels of black and the lasers stretch out super far and are fairly thick for no apparent reason. You don't have to even think for a second the claymore exists because of how much they stand out.

Claymores and mines are usually a stealthy way to kill someone, when the claymores and mines might as well have a flare on top of them and I wouldn't notice a difference in how obvious they are that's an issue.

[left lichen]

to sum it up main traffic areas is one place I like putting them

Be it I feel due to nature of the current meta they are actually decently effective with everyone going 0 to 100 on speed

[fathom iron]

Literally just a worse anti-personell mine.

Spotting a claymore is much easier, the little "click" gives you a short window to quickly sprint away and reduce your damage if you have the reaction time (which you will since usually you will see the funny black lines first anyway.), which makes its kill potential much worse.

And that's coming from me regularly avoiding them with easy but still stepping onto AP Mines.

[desert nexus]

all of this is correct

maybe give the claymore longer range and only frontal explosion, like if we want to get crazy it could be a meter or 2, but only give 1 or 2 claymores active at once

so if you come around a corner not leaning it blasts you like a shotgun would

[supple kiln]

See this proposal #1152892810891112578 message

Lethal range can be limited to 1m or whatever, but having a longer area of non-lethal damage with much more extensive trigger length would let it be useful in a lot more situations but not so deadly that it needs to have its limit lowered.

[fathom iron]

I'm on board with that

[desert nexus]

yea anything to make it atleast compete with mines for efficacy is good

[green mulch]

This is my proposal to make them useful again.
#1152892810891112578 message

This could work in conjunction with the other changes others have mentioned, but I don't think a limit is needed if players can hijack enemy claymores.

[blazing kite]

Claymore camos based on kills would be nice.

[wooden halo]

I think claymore laser should be less easier to see (maybe lasers like in many other games (BF, cod etc), it's actually a lesser mine and it's way easier to spot. The only times I died on Claymore is when I'm pressured because I killed some people on a flank and I've to run away while reloading.
Also having claymore staying after death (idk if it's still the case) is imo not a smart idea, same stuff about having 4 claymores on the map/ per player, put it down to 3. Like that it'll avoid the pure spam of many support, or just the fact that a whole field/forest is too hard to go in because of 1 player spamming.

[mild depot]

mine/claymore spam got removed and mines now stay after death
updated like 2.5months ago ^^

[wooden halo]

The thing was too buff the claymore utily without buffing the number or even reduce it to avoid spam because you can put 4 on the same life ^^

[mild depot]

i get where you're coming from but 4 is a good number imo and i die to mines/claymores a bunch, the only thing i'd like to see changed would be them clipping inside of walls, stairs, etc.

[wooden halo]

I almost never die to claymore some mines but its often pretty obvious and same spot

[turbid garden]

Claymores shouldnt do dmg only to the front?

[gleaming lintel]

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[turbid garden]

So prob a half sphere dmg would be more correct

Rn is killing from any direction

[stuck latch]

well it actually would be very dangerous in the distance that it is set off for anyone in any direction, it should have a massive increase in frontal damage area though. Would also be nice if a triggered version existed as well.

[split terrace]

I's only me or claymores/Ai mines are taking like 10~15 bullets to explode?

[stuck latch]

known bug

[gleaming lintel]

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[turbid garden]

Mines could be slightly under the grass, would be a cool mechanic

[green mulch]

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