Light Support/Machine Guns (General) - Feedback

[modest fern]

if I recall the L86 irl has a bipod

[steady zealot]

The variant we have for support should have one built into it

[topaz leaf]

we all know what it took for us to get there... 😔

[ivory granite]

Guess what

[ivory granite]

NEW LSW LETS FUCKING GOOOO

[grim orbit]

POG

[topaz leaf]

It got that CHONKY noise

[modest fern]

I shall state this

Prophet & the warlock Trailer

from WH2

[strange tartan]

The bipod attachment add on has the made the LSWs vary effective at mid-long engagements.
Definitely gives a new options to build for accuracy+range or mobility and stability.

[modest fern]

aye

[pale sleet]

So far the RPK feels like great fun to use especially the sounds.

I hope the drum mag isn't a hindrance since I wanna larp as Killa

[modest fern]

same downsides as normal 😦

[hollow summit]

Yeah, extended mag options have been bad since forever

[strange tartan]

LSWs aren't really the ideal to run an gun with. Theyare best used a supportive fire at mid + range.
The drum mags are trade off of ammo for stability.

[hollow summit]

It's a terrible trade off, and 99% of the player base completely ignores the extended mags. Quick mags are pretty much the go to option if the gun has it.

[ivory granite]

When The Light Support Weapons are for light support

[grim orbit]

I know, muh realism, but from what I've read on Wikipedia, you'd carry an actual LSW like the L86 over something like the 249 so that the unit can share the same ammo mostly

Not a thing in Battlebit (would be cool in milsim mode), but only other advantage would be it being lighter then a 249

Not an ideal run and gun, but should still be better then the 249 and Ultimax

And versus medium machine guns it a one man job

[modest fern]

Well may done some research due to the rpk 16 chat

SAW & LSW are different names for same thing

in essence a squad level fire platform

than you have GPMGs for the "Medium" MGs such as M240b

[pale sleet]

yknow what im gonna say it

lmgs and snipers should have penetration and hit multiple targets

[steady zealot]

when LSWs were meant to be ARs but with bipods for support and matching ammo/mags. but for some reason work worse than LMGs.

[ivory granite]

Imagine MG3 with 1200 rpm and piercing rounds vs namak hallway

[pale sleet]

Good.

It's called a buzz saw for a reason. A p90 should not be better for room clearing than a huge machine gun

[ivory granite]

I just want to be able to cut a house and the people inside to ash

[lilac zinc]

front bus gets kinda in the way with the rpk on the lower profile sights awawa

also the barrel attatchments seem 2 b a bit small

[naive current]

it's a feature 💯

[lilac zinc]

prolly would have been better in the rpk16 specific feedback thread my bad

[naive current]

*gun thread
but nah the attachment scaling is all over the place 💀

[topaz leaf]

the smaller the area, the more damaging the impact...

we reduce the size of the bullet during exit to increase it's penetrative power

[lilac zinc]

smallar boolet go faster go trough more armor

[modest fern]

"It just works, it just works it just works"

[grand tulip]

Smfh- these stats make zero sense and are only indicative of poor attention to detail when it comes to Support weaponry relative to their counterparts and other weapon classes.

[hollow summit]

What do you mean?

[grand tulip]

As usual the effective range and damage over range values as well as bullet velocity which even when considering the cartridge would normally be in the LMG's favour simply make this a forgettable weapon in comparison to it's counterparts. I'm not even sure why the AK-15 is in the Battle Rifle category in the first place.

[topaz leaf]

That’s a lotta words

[topaz leaf]

Counter argument: DAKKA.

[foggy comet]

It is a deliberate decision to have LMGs with poorer damage dropoff than battle rifles, and not a failed attempt at realism.

[jaunty spear]

they look similar, they're different calibers

like, entirely diff guns

RPK 16 and RPK 74 have more in common with the AK 74

[jaunty spear]

if anything, this shows poor attention on your part to actually understanding weapons

[grand tulip]

I literally stated "which even when considering the cartridge".

5.45x39mm has higher muzzle velocity and a flatter trajectory in addition to the tendancy of maintaining a more stable and predictable flight path over longer distances in comparison to 7.62x39mm.

The only thing 7.62x39mm in the AK-15 offers is better close to medium-range stopping power.

[grand tulip]

Which- as I stated, is a gross inaccuracy, and that's excluding the fact that the AK-15 isn't even a Battle RIfle to begin with.

This game is an arcade game at it's core but that doesn't mean it needs to disregard the benefits of specific weapon categories, especially seeing as it's a class-based shooter.

[naive current]

then what should the ak15 be?
an ak5c-esque assault rifle

[grand tulip]

The AK-15 is an assualt rifle, also the AK5C isn't even of the same family as the AK's, It's of the Belgium FNC family which derives from the M16 so the two weapons couldn't be anymore different even if they were in the same category.

The AK-15 is chambered for 7.62x39mm which is an intermediate cartridge, The term "battle rifle" is generally used to describe rifles that are chambered for full-power rifle cartridges which would be 7.62x51mm NATO or .308 Winchester.

[naive current]

dude i'm aware of the guns, i meant in stats you dingus

[grand tulip]

Sure you were.

Anyways, point being the AK-15 shouldn't have better range capabilities both in regards to actual distance of effective travel nor muzzle velocity; the longer barrel of the RPK-16 coupled with 5.45x39mm being designed for engagement at greater distances would make for superior ranged engagements compared to the much heavier 7.62x39mm from the shorter barrel of the AK-15.

[jaunty spear]

so rework the AK 15?

From a caliber and barrel standpoint the RPK is accurate

only thing it's missing is velocity

[grand tulip]

There's quite a few guns that need a re-work and re-classification, ultimately the game needs to decide whether it's attempting to add a more realistic approach to the arcade genre or is simply going to attempt to transition to more arcade-like gameplay, because as it stands it has an identity crisis.

There are certain attributes that pertain to the likes of Insurgency and Squad, others make CoD look like a Mil-Sim.

[topaz leaf]

the reason LSW and MGs compare worse damage wise it's because of Support's """Defensiveness"""

cant have both offense and defense so dmg nerf it is

[timid flicker]

Finally you guys fixed the m249 and the bipod. Thanks! I love it now!

[steady zealot]

squeezebore guns?

[pale sleet]

I think the ultimax should get more L Armor dmg

Now that the m249 has the same damage and faster firerate it just seems to make more sense to stay on that then to swap

[lilac zinc]

ultimax still makes more sense in different sutuation

imo

[pale sleet]

more range, less damage. just like it used to be

I still think it should be the anti vehicle lmg. give it 8 or 9 dmg

[lilac zinc]

its still got so much less recoil

[pale sleet]

Doesnt really matter. its easy to hit helicopters with the m249

[steady zealot]

both work well, Ultimax is better for range, but arguably the bipod makes that point moot

[pale sleet]

I also think LMGs should get buffed again.
They max into ammo capacity and falloff damage. At the cost of slower:

-movement speed
-aiming speed
-reload speed
-drawing speed

And tbh their damage is pretty crap

it just really sucks that even the LSW's do the job better since the rpk is so good and they flat out do more damage

[timid flicker]

I love the m249 and a buff is always welcome 🙂

[pale sleet]

m249 could use some recoil buffs tbh. Its not nearly as accurate as an LMG should be

[steady zealot]

its already rocking pretty well, I think it's ok where its at. and more buffs and it would just be the gun to use.

[pale sleet]

just feels like its in an awkward middle spot right now.
LSW's seem to be the obvious better choice especially for damage and close quarters. Ultimax is superior for range. M249 is just kinda in the middle.

[foggy comet]

I’m fine with that setup

There are times when you’re in an area of a map where the ultimax is just objectively worse than it, so it’s not unviable. It’s the best choice in those if you don’t want to sacrifice the huge mag

[heady gazelle]

MGs are just ARs with bigger mags. Don't see any point in them rn, because there's no supression mechanic in this game

LSW kinda hit or miss. RPK and G36 are nice. L86 is trash

[foggy comet]

What’s wrong with L86

Were it on a class like assault it would be a really good option

Would be better than the HK apart from perhaps with move speed as far as I’m concerned

[heady gazelle]

I'm kinda precision guns enjoyer, maybe that's why I hate doing L86 weekly

Too sharp of the recoil in too fast firing weapon

[foggy comet]

It’s not a low recoil gun but it’s not bad

Less recoil than almost every gun with comparable ttk

Only exception might be the Groza

[pale sleet]

the guns that are the most annoying to lug around should be the deadliest once theyre set up in a good spot. buff the lmgs

[ivory granite]

I'm down for lmg buffs

Make them 1 shot🙏🙏

[pale sleet]

bipoded lmg should be the deadliest automatic in the game. at least make that accurate

[pale sleet]

I meme a lot in the support feedback channels but, it really does seem like LSW's outdo LMG's.

I spectate people who are doing good killwise on support a lot and majority of the time they have an RPK or L86. Sometimes the m249 but not often.

I think its a balance issue with the LMGs but it might be a bigger picture thing. The tradeoff of speed and damage for magsize and range just doesnt seem that good. Especially since the scope kick kinda limits how useful LMGs are at those longer ranges

[flat marlin]

I used to play mostly exo support with m249, got sth like 1700 kills on it
then switched to l86 to do challenges and then just loved it and reached 1k kills
and it just ... feels better
I'm getting more kills on avergae with it, better movespeed, a bit faster rof
only thing is drum mag sucks ass but that's the issue of drum mags in total

[modest fern]

L86 wise was the best TTK of the support weapons prior to the weapon reclassification update

mix in it had faster velocity than the rest & such

[foggy comet]

It still is? That hasn’t changed

Though your wording makes me wonder if I’m misinterpreting that.

[modest fern]

FAL comes to mind some

be it that is Headshots, unsure on bodies

[foggy comet]

Oh yeah

When you said support weapons I didn’t think of BRs

[modest fern]

well meant support's weapons to be more precise

so what he can currently use

my bad on wording

[pale sleet]

After prestiging again and using the L86.

Wow LMGs are really weak in comparison. Its insane how fast this kills

Yeah they have more range but most of the highkill games are done in closer ranges

[lilac zinc]

yeahh lsw's just outclass lmg's now, m249 is kinda obsolete the ultimax still has its niche

should just give the m249 an extra 100 bullets and it would have its own niche as well, still wouldnt be as good as rpk or l86 with a drum mag

[lilac zinc]

imo^

[fathom quest]

bipod is pretty based huh, like it alot

[naive current]

bipod is the only way

[fathom quest]

maybe ultimax doesn't need it but seems quite good on most of the lmgs

did they buff extended mags yet, haven't checked that

[naive current]

on the ultimax it allows you to reach up to 200m in f/a
150m is the effective range but yk, 204 or 205 was my longest range kill with the thing

[fathom quest]

interesting, longest range with the ultimax for me is 152, l86 is 435

[hollow summit]

No, extended mags still suck. Probably will for a while.

[fathom quest]

nice, they just have to middle road it and not make it gimp suit tier

like it can still be bad but still usable

[hollow summit]

If they just removed the recoil debuffs I would use em more

[grim orbit]

Id take ultra extendo mag for the 249

But id prefer a suppression mechanic + suppression assist points for LMGs

[hollow summit]

Oki "I don't want to reward missing"

Looks at all the battlefield games and how well they did

Support was a fun class in those because you actually felt like you had a reason for that big mag. Plus, the better accuracy over sustained fire mechanic was great

[foggy comet]

You do have a reason for it

To kill everyone

[grim orbit]

That's dumb

May as well remove LMGs then

[foggy comet]

seriously

[pale sleet]

Bipod LMGs should be the most accurate automatic fire in the game

[naive current]

the ultimax is
the ultimax is...

[pale sleet]

You're giving up the most important thing which is movement so you should have superior firepower.

The Ultimax does it but the m249 doesn't

[naive current]

[pale sleet]

Would also be great if scopes didn't bounce like a crackhead so you can actually use the higher range LMGs offer better

[naive current]

mg3 and mg5 will probably end up as dumb 100rnd smgs instead of medium range monsters

and the m60 is just a worse scar with more bullets
peak lmg/mmg/lsw balancing

[steady zealot]

heavy as fuck guns actually having limited vertical recoil? what is this sorcery?

[topaz leaf]

mfw having more weight increases my recoil apparently

[hollow summit]

What's really sad is the Ultimax doesn't even have superior firepower, just accuracy. The equivalent assault rifle, the AUG, has better damage, similar recoil stats, and a much better first shot multiplier

[pale sleet]

Yeah ultimax was or maybe still is tied for the worst TTK of an automatic

It's really weak but it has the best range

[modest fern]

Being blunt
LSWs
MG36 (different damage profile to the others at a 3 tap 600 rpm)
L86 (fastest TTK of the LSWs & LMGs ; most aggressive I would wager)
RPK (Very accurate, kinda a jack of all trades of the LSWs)

LMGs
M249 (M4 damage profile with a mix of stats that says long range (double max damage range) & Shorter range (over 2x H-recoil) compared to the M4)
Ultimax (Longer ranged, low recoil laser beam)

I'll be honest if they buffed the M249 to 800 rpm & slightly reduced the recoil stats to help compensate

I would be interested in seeing what that would create

[hollow summit]

I just want the Ultimaxs damage to be normalized to 30 or 31

[hollow grail]

The only thing I wish for is 1.5x scope. I feel 2x is too big and 1x is too small for some guns

[steady zealot]

1.2s, 1.5s, 1.8s and so on. hope fully they are coming eventually

[hollow summit]

This year on my wishlist I'd like for the lmgs(mostly just the Ultimax) to get a accuracy buff

Also the F2k, but wrong chat really

[pale sleet]

m249 really needs a buff. ultimax has range and slightly worse damage but m249 gets outgunned at most ranges

theres a very small golden area where it excels except rpgs dmrs snipers shit on it

[hollow summit]

I'm just sick of having my crosshair on target at longer ranges, only to miss because of the stupid spread

Why does the long range automatic weapon class have worse accuracy than most assault rifles?

[foggy jewel]

From the perspective of a child, it might be intuitive to think "big gun = inaccurate but does a lot of damage"

[steady zealot]

because they tried to balance it like an AR but with big mag

and looking at the extended magazine attachements its pretty on par.

weapon weight needs to be the main deciding factor, with caliber being secondary.

[pale sleet]

now if only it did a lot of damage

[foggy comet]

I use the gun all the time but have never observed that before

It only affects the cone of fire when hipfiring, in which case you can see the impacts of low accuracy

Not that they matter much there

[hollow summit]

I use a 2x, so its easier to notice. Fire off single fire shots at longer ranges through a scope, and its noticable. Most people don't realize because most combat is shorter range.

[foggy comet]

I use a 4x a lot

For single shots loads of people have tried with minimum accuracy builds in the shooting range and not found accuracy to have any impact

We know 100% it doesn’t affect single shots, no way to be certain for full auto (but no proof it makes a difference yet)

It does affect hipfiring as you can clearly see bullet impacts dancing around a laser dot like 20m away

[modest fern]

It isn't spread, gun just has more H-Recoil than V-Recoil

[modest fern]

even than, it doesn't have a superb damage profile through

[steady zealot]

why does the 20 pound 249 have so much vertical though

[hollow summit]

Either way, it makes me annoyed that the scopes are so difficult to use with anything other than a dmr or sniper

[modest fern]

so it can decide to bounce left or right at random a good degree

[foggy jewel]

oki was thinking from a child-like perspective, but somehow made it worse

[modest fern]

Well give oki this, at least he buffed it up some

[hollow summit]

"More ammo is always better, obviously, so lets nerf all the other stats of the gun so nobody wants to use it ever"

[pale sleet]

Ultimax's draw speed is actually the most ridiculous thing I cannot fathom that this hasnt been buffed yet

Its such a massive unnecessary hindrance to the class.
Wanna swap to do things support is expected to do?
-drop ammo
-supply
-trophies, mines, etc.
-bandage, revive, bleeding

all of that is clunky because it has such a slow draw time for no reason

[steady zealot]

20+ pound gun?

[pale sleet]

m249 has a fast draw speed.

[steady zealot]

it really doesn't, but you are right it shouldn't be slower than the 249

also, just checked, loaded with 100 rounds it weighs less than 15 pounds/

so it should at least be equal with the FAL

[foggy comet]

I think its fair enough to limit the gun’s usefulness close up

[steady zealot]

I would rather recoil, draw, and movement is based on how the weapon actually operates. Weapon weight, Barrel length + weight, and so on. would make weapons be far more distinct than they are now.

[pale sleet]

It is already one of the weakest automatics why does it need an unnecessary problem

Like honestly both the LMGs are mediocre automatics that just have more range.
M249 has not great accuracy Ultimax is slow as hell

[foggy comet]

If “weak” = TTK then you’re correct, but I’ll argue with you if you mean in general

It’s a laser beam that barely has to reload

[pale sleet]

Low rate of fire and bad damage bruv

Accuracy and mag size aren't that great to spec in to especially at the cost of speed because speed is the best thing in this game and the LMGs got none of that

[foggy comet]

speed is the best thing if you're playing a playstyle built around speed, yes

being able to beam anyone you see while they probably don't have a reasonable chance at fighting back is pretty powerful.

[hollow summit]

As someone who mains ultimax, it could use another +1 damage upgrade, but otherwise it does its job well. I mostly just want to make sure it's on par with its AR equivalent, the AUG.

[foggy comet]

it has lower recoil than the AUG does

it should have worse ttk imo.

[naive current]

the fall off for lmgs is bad
my gun is effective out to 200m but only has good damage until 150-ish, wth

[steady zealot]

both LMGs effective should be about 300, and 150 is pushing it

[naive current]

my longest kills with them are
204m for the ultimax,
197m for the m249
yeah...

[pale sleet]

damn i forgot how weak the ultimax is

dawg buff the draw speed already cmon man it makes supporting 10x slower than it needs to be and its already slow as fuck

[silk zinc]

didnt they already buff the ultimax?

i must be playing a different game. the guns have been fine the whole time (if lacking in variety for support since you poor bastards only get like 5 guns)

[pale sleet]

Did some quick tests in the firing range again to see just how bad the Ultimax's draw speed is.

test done by swapping from pistol to primary and holding left click so it fires as soon as it can.
(in 60fps, so a 30frame time is 0.5s)

L86 w/ drum mag: 32 frames
RPK w/ drum: 1 second 3frames
MG36 w/ drum: 43 frames
m249: 20 frames
m249 slowest draw build (flir, vertical, longsup, cantsight, targetfinder): 43 frames
Ultimax: 1 second 6 frames.
Ultimax w/ shift short angle grip (fastest draw): 43 frames.

SO. The fastest Ultimax draw = slowest m249 draw.

Default ultimax draw is slower than the RPK drum draw, which is insane. Its faster than it used to be but 1.1 seconds is still brutally slow for a draw speed.

The difference in speed between the LMGs is actually ridiculous.

(Also the Ultimax's default draw speed is 1.20 for some reason when every other default gun is 1.00 but the stat makes no sense because higher draw speed = faster except for the ultimax)

[foggy jewel]

I would think that the data would show that support players as a group consistently do worse in terms of kills and score than medics and such.

[pale sleet]

yeah look at any leaderboard during a non-class-specific challenge week, support is usually not the top ones

[hollow summit]

The only buff I can remember the Ultimax getting is the velocity buff

[modest fern]

4 to start with prior to the weapon category

[foggy comet]

It got a significant recoil buff a while ago

[hollow summit]

Well dang. Guess my memory is just that bad.

[foggy comet]

There it is

It was pretty substantial

4 months ago

[pale sleet]

found a post from 6 months ago where I measured the old draw speeds.

Apparently ultimax used to be a 1.7s draw and m249 was 0.68s.

i dont remember them getting a draw speed buff tho

maybe i was inaccurate one of the times but the ultimax is def over a second still

[silk zinc]

That hasn’t been the case in my games now that they have br access. And aggressive medics practically don’t exist since assault is just better in every way.

[silk zinc]

Idk why I thought it was 5, maybe I need to play another support game but I don’t think I have any other lmgs/lsws with 0 kills on them

[silk zinc]

I never found the draw speed to be a problem but I also don’t like to be empty handed anywhere near the fight, even with faster swapping weapons

[jaunty spear]

Draw speed is a multiplier to draw animation

So high number just makes the base animation per weapon faster

[stone iris]

The way Oki uses non-relative values for various gun stats stats is so fucking frustrating. Having access to those stats is meaningless if a stat value means two different things on two different guns. Hell, even using the words "Fast" "Faster", "Fastest" would be more helpful than that

[jaunty spear]

[pale sleet]

Going from the .2s m249 to 1.1s ultimax is extremely noticeable

M249 can fire on the first frame it draws and the Ultimax has this weird animation it does first

[silk zinc]

noticeable sure, but why do you ever not have your gun out that you need to suffer the draw speed penalty?

[naive current]

bandaging, throwing grenades, supplying people, throwing out your box, reviving (shocking thing to do ik mr assault medic)

[pale sleet]

Bandaging supplying placing trophies mid cluster fight. Yknow things support is expected to do

I literally can not think of a gun with a slower draw maybe one of the snipers

[silk zinc]

okay, but you die anyway if you're caught doing anything with something else in your hand regardless what gun you have, why would you expect it to be somehow better with lmgs?

[pale sleet]

straight up wrong. Quick drawing the m249 has saved me so many times when bleeding

[silk zinc]

it's a positioning issue if you get caught with your pants down.

then that's the other player not having hands

that has nothing to do with weapon balance

[naive current]

💀

it absolutely has

[pale sleet]

No skill issue in these threads man cmon one rule.

It absolutely has to do with weapon balance

[silk zinc]

i can post clips all day of people whiffing shots on me while i'm bandaging/refilling ammo from an assault box, doesnt mean i wouldn't die there every time to any decent player

[pale sleet]

"Oh I have good reaction time, I can pull out my primary rapidly to kill the enemy"

Vs "I have good reaction time but my Ultimax takes a literal full second to pull out so I'm dead 3x over"

[naive current]

it's a low dps gun and if you die to the drawspeed it's literally shit like rezzing someone in a safe spot only to have leeroy jankins come flying in and leeroy all over the place (wouldn't have happened with any other gun)

[silk zinc]

then pull out your pistol? or stop getting caught

i hear pistols have a great draw time

[pale sleet]

Hey yknow how when you're stopping bleeding you hold 3

What happens when you stop holding 3

[silk zinc]

that circles back to positioning. you got pushed and caught while bleeding, has nothing to do with your gun and at that point the only thing deciding that fight is whether your enemy has hands

bleeding is what? 20 hp and below? what doesnt 1 hit you at that point

[pale sleet]

Again. M249 makes that survivable Ultimax doesn't

You can absolutely QuickDraw with most other guns and survive that if you react fast

[silk zinc]

then you play with people who use touchpad to aim. i clearly need to join your games cause i'm dealing with people who i can't beat even fully prepared to fight them

[pale sleet]

You don't even know what you're talking about man. If you can't see the issue with the slowest draw speed ingame on a slow firing weak automatic then I can't help you. It's a balance issue

[silk zinc]

yep you're right, i don't know anything. clearly if the ultimax had the same draw speed as the m249 you would win every gun fight regardless of if you were bleeding or not.

i bow to your superiority and incredible knowledge

[foggy comet]

This is acting like it’s an underpowered weapon

I don’t mind it being forced into a slightly slower playstyle for what it offers

[stone iris]

Mom and Dad are fighting again

[pale sleet]

I argue both the lmgs are underpowered

[modest fern]

brs wise i don't see many use

[silk zinc]

i think i've died to one guy ratting my safe zone with m249 in the last 3 weeks, every other support is using br's, and there's a fuckload of supports nowadays because we keep getting repeat weekly challenges

[modest fern]

glock if i recall

[silk zinc]

the glock does have a solid rof tho

[modest fern]

true

equally i was just looking at damage

[silk zinc]

yeah that's fair. oddly enough i dont think a lot of people use the glock, i think public opinion likes the mp443 or w/e it is

[modest fern]

personally i just like the full auto

[silk zinc]

same

[modest fern]

BR wise on support

I tend to note fellow supports use the LSWs or LMGs more often than BRs at the very least

[silk zinc]

it's rare i see lsws/lmgs now. i really would have preferred if they would just follow through on giving support more weapons without giving them br's

[modest fern]

hmm

Maybe a server thing than

[silk zinc]

when the rpk got added it was super popular, all over the place, every support using it. now it's fal's/ak15's

[modest fern]

Because you keep seeing them & I keep seeing more LSWs/LMGs

[foggy comet]

I prefer Unica to glock, I guess because of its relative sneakiness and that it usually 1 hit kills against damaged enemies

[modest fern]

at least this discussion says that the pistols are decently balanced for most part

[silk zinc]

i haven't even looked at the unica but i swear i've been getting 2 tapped by it from full

[modest fern]

at least between categories

[modest fern]

if i recall 1.5x hs on a revolver would do that

[silk zinc]

i don't think i've ever had an issue with the pistol balance in this game. (as a general comparison, there was definitely some internal class balance issues between like, the rsh and the unica before)

what's pdw hs multi? also 1.5?

[modest fern]

1.5x is standard

[foggy comet]

Only SMGs and light pistols are 1.2x

[modest fern]

only smgs, semi/full auto pistols and snipers differ

[silk zinc]

yeah... i think maybe he needs to go to a weapon by weapon balance basis on that

mp7 probably shouldn't be 1.5x multi, as someone about to retire mine when i get gold camo...

[modest fern]

gotta agree with that

so did the mp7 have that prior or?

(haven't touched many of the SMGs & PDWs excluding the evo)

[foggy comet]

MP7 does so much better on limbs I still don’t think 1.5x makes headshots viable, but for whether or not I think it should have it I’m pretty ambivalent

[silk zinc]

it couldn't have. i think it's literally just an internal class flag that decides the multi which is a weird way to do things

[modest fern]

lets see

So MP7 has 25 base damage, correct?

[silk zinc]

i mean it's limb ttk is like 189 or smth, the hs multi doesn't even matter at that point

there's like 5 guns total that can compete with that and 3 of them require headshots to beat the baseline

[modest fern]

because if so the damage per shot is
1.2x HS = 30
1.5x = 37.5

Ow

[silk zinc]

isnt it 27?

idk why but i swear it has a higher damage base than the others

[modest fern]

could've swore it was 25

but I'll check

sec

[silk zinc]

nah you're right. what had 27....

[modest fern]

maybe mp5?

or is that 28?

[silk zinc]

mp5 is 29

[modest fern]

welp I am checking

[silk zinc]

mp443 is the only gun with 27 base damage so clearly i'm off my rocker

450 hours of bbr, i'm losing my mind. good news is i'll be prestige 10 soon, which means level cap soon. which means uninstall soon 😄

[foggy jewel]

Anyone else thinks that it's silly that a gun that looks like this will lose in a 1v1 to a gun that looks like this?

[naive current]

depends on the circumstances

[silk zinc]

depends on situation, also bullets don't care about your feelings. that's why we shoot eachother instead of talking. much easier to send 18 year olds to war than to speak openly

[modest fern]

(Happy we don't have this)

but anyhow

Suppose a question to be asked, what does everyone feel a LSW/LMG should be generally good at?

and what should the standard upsides & downsides be to accomplish this goal

[foggy jewel]

It should excel at suppressing the enemy

If it can't suppress, then it should be accurate and shred enemies in it's optimal range, especially when the user has a bipod.

Downsides it should be heavy and slow to move with.
Upsides is it should be accurate and powerful.

Right now it's just kind of heavy, slow, inaccurate, and weak. Like a big M4 with no advantages over it other than mag size

[modest fern]

suppose the question of shred enemies in optimal range

if it was based off another gun (Example the M249 & M4A1) would the LMG have the same FR & such?

[foggy jewel]

What does "it" in "if it was based off another gun" mean?

Are you asking "if the m249 is based off the M4, would the LMG have the same FR & such"?

[modest fern]

as if the LMG was based off another gun

[modest fern]

pretty much

[foggy jewel]

I don't know if it should have the same fire rate and such, or if it even SHOULD be based off the M4.

[pale sleet]

LMGs are sluggish to aim, load, move with. they should absolutely be the deadliest automatics when theyre setup especially with a bipod. and especially because static bipoding is easily countered with rpg dmg sniper.

It shouldnt even be a contest at medium ranges

[hollow summit]

M249 should not be a worse M4 at any point. As it is, the M249 has better range and better vertical recoil(largely considered an easier stat to control anyways) and worse everything else compared to the M4. Heck, until recently, the M249 even had worse velocity.

[naive current]

it still has

idk what the devs are cooking up with lmg balance but damn
fucked up velocity, fall off and recoil 💀

[hollow summit]

"Let's make the long ranged weapons get beat out at long range by everything short of an smg"

[naive current]

yeah

aimpunch being this irrelevant on lmgs is just mind boggling

[foggy comet]

They don’t

[silk zinc]

Aim punch is bad. I hope it stays gone

[naive current]

on every gun, yes
on guns meant to suppress, i'm not so sure, especially if they're staying as big ars

[silk zinc]

no. aim punch is bad. also fuck right off. i'm so god damn sick of supports tanking half a mag of vector because of this games dogshit netcode. they dont need fucking aim punch on top of that

if they get aim punch remove all armor

jfc you people are fucking insane

[naive current]

🧂

lmao

[silk zinc]

you dont even have a counterarguement. you just said some dumb shit and then drop a salt emote like you're superior or some shit

[foggy comet]

I have not seen nearly enough packet loss yet for supports to tank half a vector mag

like one hit gets denied every many hours of gameplay in my experience

[silk zinc]

i'm literally playing rn, in the last 2 hours i've had an enemy standing still just, stop taking hits mid-mag. like 6+ hits on a guy, 2-3 more shots, i stop shooting, there's just a gap where bullets are phasing through his body not regging. i'm just wasting ammo for literal nothing

i've had people with 0 head armor tank 5+ hits from a ump to the head (nice bright yellow hitmarkers)

[foggy comet]

do you have any clips of that?

[silk zinc]

i've been streaming for the last... 10 hours?

so i've got some nice footage of how much i hate this game

[foggy comet]

that would require some error to be occuring during collision detection which would be a very serious issue

[silk zinc]

tbh good luck finding any of those clips. i'm so miserable playing this game, i just want level 200 so i can uninstall

[naive current]

damn man xD
when you have hitreg issues don't blame it on armor

[silk zinc]

hitreg issues are made worse by armor. it's not fun needing to deal 1.5x more damage to someone because of whatever class they chose

when half your shit doesnt reg

[foggy comet]

I would be a bit surprised if it being this bad is more than a connection issue on your end

[naive current]

literal isp issue
(the guy has been complaining for ever about the "bad hitreg and server connection")

[foggy comet]

average lokisam gameplay

[naive current]

even my internet is more stable 💀

while it is shitting the bed

wtf is that clip

[foggy comet]

One of mine where my internet was just about functional enough to not be kicked from the server, but very close

It was like that for several minutes

You can hear garbled voices of my friends from where small bits of data get through

[naive current]

lmao

i have that for like a few seconds randomly (god i love german internet providers 🔥 💯 🗣️)

[pale sleet]

Yknow man people hype the Ultimax as being this laser beam and it's really not all that accurate

Like it's no MG36 but it's still got kick

[hollow summit]

It's one of the only automatics that feels okay to use with a 2x scope, which is nice

Could use a bump to velocity to compete with the AUG tho

[modest fern]

pretty sure the M249 still has worse velocity

[modest fern]

so let put the network issues to a side

since they can quite possibly be fixed & such

[modest fern]

not exactly 1.5x nor is it a consisent 1.5x

[foggy comet]

It’s the lowest recoil in the game

It is the most accurate

Outside of snipers

[pale sleet]

Doesn't feel like it even with a bipod a 3.4x is a struggle

[stone iris]

I mean, 3.4x is quite a lot of magnification to be using in full auto, fullstop. I'm pretty sure at least that part is intentional lol

[foggy comet]

150m range

I don't consider myself good at recoil control

but that's not bad

some people are very consistent at negating V recoil which would give them a lot less to worry about

[foggy comet]

(Over 10 seconds of firing your mouse ends up going so far down it’s hard to keep V recoil under control, usually you don’t fire for that long)

[hollow summit]

I find the Slip and Flir are a lot better for the Max

[hollow grail]

Tbh red dot is perfectly fine for me under 200m. Even 2x feels like too much zoom at that range.

[pale sleet]

hmm doin some bipod tests actually made me think of an idea

probably a very bad one but like. what if when a bipod is deployed, if you keep ripping your mouse down theres just... no vertical recoil

[foggy jewel]

Here's another bad idea, a treadmill mousepad that moves at a configurable rate when the mouse button is pressed/held, designed to cancel out the vertical recoil from any gun!

[pale sleet]

hey if the bipod made sense the ultimax would have practcially no recoil

one thing im actually noticing in terms of accuracy between the LMGs is tapping AD while scoped with the m249 feels way easier to control. while the ultimax tapping movement seems to make it jump more

[pale sleet]

also im not saying no recoil but like. it has a floor you can hit on it

like when you look all the way down

[foggy jewel]

that makes sense. There should also be bipod attach-to-surface. https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1189058945344622643

Maybe the difference between tapping in guns is due to first-shot recoil

[pale sleet]

do still think both lmgs could use a buff tho

[stone iris]

Yall having some kinda shrooms party or something? Treadmill mousepad??

[foggy comet]

That makes no sense at all.

Like literally none

It’s effectively just adding a bit more horizontal recoil and stopping you using the bipod

[foggy comet]

I do way worse with a red dot at that range personally. The reticule completely blocks your view of the target and any smaller movements they make are impossible to discern

Especially if they’re behind cover you can’t really tell if you’re on target or not which is very bad for recoil control

I flick between slip and prisma on the ultimax, after using either for too long I end up wishing I was using the other

Since 4x is a bit better for precision but halves your field of view which is bad for situational awareness

[hollow grail]

yeah that why I suggest 1.5x scope cause for me 2x is too big