Carbines (General) - Feedback

[normal marsh]

Please keep it on topic, and civil, we want serious feedback

• No gifs
• No 'skill issue'
• No video's - (Testing video's in the Polygon are fine)

[fervent dirge]

The only 2 carbines in the game have very drasticly different gameplay approaches so its hard to give feedback as a whole rather than indivually, the AS val is its current state is in a weird place, it holds some powerful CQC abilities and some mid range but the recoil and bullet capacity is a big fuck you to your face, only 20 bullets in a mag while the honey badger has an extra 4, sure the asval compensates through reload time but why waste using the asval when th FAL exists? Same ammo capacity but almost half the ttk is a bit ridiculous, if the barrel was customizable then i cam see it being more useful. The scorpion evo on the other hand is in a great place, beautiful balancing where it can demolish in cqc but with troubles at range, the only thing i would change is the first shot kick as it is very jarring when you have to effectively aim at their feet if you wanna headshot on full auto

Adding onto the recoil of scorpevo, i dont believe that it should just be removed but rather, there should be gradual build up on full auto rather than just kicking you up a meter when you first shoot, as it is now you only have to think in the first half a second of clicking with the scorpionevo, after that its not too hard to keep it at a consistent level making it all the more powerful

If anything the firstshot kick is a buff as i see myself getting more headshot kills than not as i jump from the body shots to headshots without even having to think

[wind sleet]

maybe add the scorpion to assault, i really don't see why it shouldn't be, it's well balanced and has a place in the assaulting class imo

[candid halo]

Why is the first one locked behind level 105?

[scarlet ravine]

Carbines are supposed to be AR-caliber SMGs, I have no idea why they have a much worse damage fall off than almost every SMG.

[wind sleet]

because they have a dramatically shorter barrel irl ig

[orchid ice]

smg are also sb (obv). So carbines being 2x worse than most of smgs is kinda dumb.
Oki should lower carbine's recoil, at least Val's

[stable wyvern]

EVO should be moved to SMG

[wind sleet]

ik

[wind sleet]

the evo, atleast the a1, is a carbine, there's no reason to make it a smg

[fervent dirge]

i feel like the scorpion evo could use either a runspeed buff or atleast moved to assault class

[stable wyvern]

it's literally a SMG, it's not a AR

carbines are literally rifles that have a shorter barrel

[fervent dirge]

guess what, the scorpion evo has a shorter barrel!

[stable wyvern]

that doesn't shoot rifle caliber 🤓

listen I can nerd all you want but the EVO fits the SMG description more than a carbine description

[fervent dirge]

the scorpion evo is a pistol caliber carbine

[wind sleet]

👆

[fervent dirge]

it follows a similar size to other assault rifles but has a shorter barrel and lower caliber

[stable wyvern]

this is the carbine version

[fervent dirge]

the scorpion evo is massive in size compared to an SMG, it doesnt fit the description

[wind sleet]

the a1 evo sports safe, 3-round burst, full auto, guess what that's the thing in the game

[stable wyvern]

this is the SMG version

[wind sleet]

that's the a1

[stable wyvern]

massive in size in-game cause the dimensions look whack in every case

[crystal berry]

Moving it to PDW would make more sense

[stable wyvern]

the EVO never had any reason to be in the carbine section, at most it could be in the PDW section

what they said

[crystal berry]

I just want osprey barrel and quick mag

[wind sleet]

a pdw shoots "miniture rifle rounds" aka 5x7 or 4,6x30, p90, mp7

the evo is good in terms of balance without a barrel

[fervent dirge]

PDW's fire rifle cartridges

[wind sleet]

not really

[fervent dirge]

scaled down yeah

[wind sleet]

more like smaller ones ye

[stable wyvern]

then my case still stands then

[wind sleet]

the thing should be a pdw? it shoots 9x19 parabellum what

[stable wyvern]

a SMG

[wind sleet]

well yes, but actually no

[fervent dirge]

typically PDW's are for performance in range, accuracy and AP capabilities, scorpevo lacks all of those

[wind sleet]

it's classified as a carbine and it shouldn't have a barrel, it would be vector 2.0 and even worse than the vector

[stable wyvern]

say all you want, it's literally built as a SMG, the manufacturer even defined it as a SMG and has a seperate carbine variant made, even wikipedia defines it as a SMG

[orchid ice]

We already have honey badger so why not

[stable wyvern]

idk why you are so stubborn to refuse the FACT that it is classified as a SMG in real life, and that the Czech military also classifies it as a SMG

[fervent dirge]

i think its too heavy to be a SMG in this game

[stable wyvern]

cause game balance

cause devs don't know how to balance for shit

💀

[wind sleet]

yeah ok man the thing in game isn't a carbine, but it should probaly still stay there cuz barrel and balance

[stable wyvern]

all i am saying is that it does not make sense

for it to be in the carbine section

[fervent dirge]

i'm seeing a 50/50 split in marketting, a lot of czech websites detail it as a pistol caliber carbine while others describe it as a smg

[wind sleet]

nope it doesn't, same for the val

[stable wyvern]

VAL makes sense cause it's literally built as a carbine

it's shooting 9x39 which is basically rifle caliber

[wind sleet]

yup also written on wiki to then say it's carbine but actually not the a1 but fuck it

[stable wyvern]

• that special suppressed barrel

[fervent dirge]

pretty sure the semi-auto cz scorpion evo is the one thats considered a carbine

although both have the same trait of a shortened suppressed barrel

[wind sleet]

yes but that thing is classified as an assault rifle, the vss vintorez is a sniper rifle, because

yup, kinda confusing that thing

anyways just bring it to assault

[fervent dirge]

bring it to assault and give some mag variety

not very good reload speed for a gun that can burn through a mag in seconds

[stable wyvern]

the reloads for some guns are just exaggerated for no reason

1. EVO
2. AK5C

[wind sleet]

ye, although it could be a little to cracked with a quick mag

[fervent dirge]

it should not take that fucking long to pull your hand up and cock the gun

it almost doubles the reload time unnecessarily

[wind sleet]

tbh evo reload's sick

[fervent dirge]

its cool but slow

[stable wyvern]

it's not cracked cause that shit is literally stuck to close range with that much recoil

not only that, shit is loud as hell

[wind sleet]

but it fucks when it fucks

[fervent dirge]

yeah its borderline impossible to get kills past 90m

[stable wyvern]

anyone hearing that will just swarm to your location

[fervent dirge]

longest i got was 88m and that was sheer luck from spraying

[wind sleet]

66m by spraying into a pile and hoping

[fervent dirge]

the gun really only excels at 20-30m or less

[wind sleet]

not to mention the absurd sens you need to have to use it xD

[fervent dirge]

so having a shortened reload time would make a more convienent gun

nah the sense isnt that bad

the only gripe i have with the recoil is the inconsistency on the first shot

you fire once and your barrel goes up effectively 1m, keep holding it down and then it just stays there

although it might not even need a quick mag if its paired with assaults inherent buff

[wind sleet]

well had to max my ing sens onto 1100 dpi already :/

[wind sleet]

exactly that's what i mean, with a little to cracked

but honestly as it is rn, it should be on assault ffs

[fervent dirge]

imo, swap the asval with the scorpion evo

the asval as a whole is just a copy and pasted honeybadger with 4 less bullets

[wind sleet]

bu' i' has fa'er reload

fuck the balance of those 2 just no fuck 'em

[fervent dirge]

using a tac reload makes the difference negligble

[wind sleet]

idk only used the badger, it looks cooler

[fervent dirge]

the 4 extra bullets goes a long way honestly

badger > val

[wind sleet]

[granite shale]

you shouldnt have to change sens to make a gun viable. IMO the two best options are A. make it into an actual carbine as suggested by @stable wyvern with the gun taking a more ranged approach and giving it more damage and range at the cost of firerate and movement speed/ads speed. this would require the model to be changed and may be too much work for what they are looking for so option B. just reduce the fucking recoil. forgotten weapons on yt has a video shooting in full auto and he himself claims its "very controllable". this gun should be an upgrade from the vector if its not going to go through a full remodel/reclassificaton.

[wind sleet]

the thing is tho if you make this a vector upgrade, then wtf do you have, that's right a fucking vector upgrade, it may be controllable in rl but the ak74 is also more controllable, aswell as the vector, it has been done for balance, seriously this gun doesn't need a buff it's fine as is just bring it to assault and all good

[scarlet ravine]

My impression is that vertical recoil is way higher across the board in this game than any other I have previously played. I honestly think having that taper off during extended full auto would make most guns feel a lot better. As you said, this isn't so much about skill than it is about buying a device with convenient options to optimize settings and having a big enough desk to drag the mouse around.

[wind sleet]

try upping your in-game vertical sensitivity, it was weird at first but now it's kind of good actually, recoil controll is certainly easier than before

[crystal berry]

adjusting the base recoil is a very slippery slope

on one hand it would make every other grip that isnt the vertical viable

but then it would make the weapon even more oppressive than it already is

to the point of pre-nerf asval

I dont think the overall vertical recoil should go below 2 after attachments

[fervent dirge]

i dont think that the general vertical recoil needs to be changed, rather the speed at which it impacts the gun

i mentioned it before but the way it is now, the scorpion evo is only awkward to use because you have to aim the first bullet significantly lower than all the others, once you start firing, maintaining a stream isnt that bad

[granite shale]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ezkjYynTTYY?feature=share weird he isnt looking at the sky like my character does when i shoot 15 bullets

not one other gun in my leveling progression have i had to change my sens to be able to use

not to mention the 280 kill grind before you unlock the only grip that makes it remotely viable

[fervent dirge]

maybe instead add a knockback feature to the scorion evo? can make things like vaulting into windows more diffcult which is a fair trade off for significantly less recoil

[granite shale]

i think the horizontal recoil could be bumped up a bit along with slowing the firerate to 1100.I do agree with the inital first bullet needing to be changed for QOL on the gun aswell, and the mag should be hit down to just 30 bullets. The main reason i think the gun is fine otherwise is the small magazine matched with the high fire rate leads to a ton of reloading. You can not just spray down a squad with a scorpion even with zero recoil like you could with a p90 or vector with extended mag. In my grind to 150 it was one of the slowest to start progression wise and by far the least rewarding.

[fervent dirge]

i believe the real model is issued for 1150 RPM with 30 bullets, has a 50 drum mag and a 100 dual drum

[granite shale]

i understand the fear of the vector 2.0 but keeping unrealistic recoil stats on a gun. The carbine catagory ^(would need to have) no mag slot so it would stay the 30, thus being the nerf

the rpm hit could also help slightly with recoil and how fast the gun rises

i think the as val suffers the same issue and would greatly benefit from it

[fervent dirge]

speakin on carbines as a whole, i think the biggest issue is how lacking they are in customizability, once you unlock the grip attachments, thats it everything else is cosmetic, compared to something like an AR that can customize barrel, mag and underbarrel

[granite shale]

thats exactly what made the grind so unrewarding

ideally they just make this the carbine version and turn the evo3a1 just into a pdw considering it doesnt have a mag slot and is very uncustomizable

[fervent dirge]

isnt that version just semi automatic though?

[granite shale]

thats the beauty of being a dev, they dont have to make it be

[fervent dirge]

i feel like making the a1 variant a pdw would be unnecessarily strong, the scorpevo already benefits from its recoil making headshots easier than body shots, adding the pdw multiplier on that could be broken

[granite shale]

id like to see your kill stats on the weapon if you think headshots are easier than bodys with it

[fervent dirge]

i genuinenly find myself getting more headshots than not because it bumps upwards

[granite shale]

ive never seen an argument be made that a gun is better at killing because the recoil is higher

[crystal berry]

Riding the recoil does help land more headshots at range

[fervent dirge]

its because of what i stated before with the first shot inconsistency

[crystal berry]

but you typically shouldnt aim at their upper body anyhow

considering how armour in this game works

[granite shale]

thats the issue, you aim center of mass and end up cloudwatching

[crystal berry]

I find the most success aiming at their legs

interms of recoil

I think the inability to control it lies between the chair and the screen

[granite shale]

read rule 2

before i report you

LMFAOOOOOOO

[crystal berry]

go for it

[granite shale]

hahaha yes bro its skill issue

you are just braindead ig

[fervent dirge]

im confused what rule are you quoting

[granite shale]

you dont get it?

that means skill issue

[fervent dirge]

ah

player issue

[crystal berry]

yeah whatever

[granite shale]

@crystal berry stat check

[crystal berry]

I stand by my statement

[granite shale]

post kd rn

[fervent dirge]

he has 9k+ on scorpevo

he sent an SS before

[granite shale]

let me see it then

[granite shale]

now sens

dpi and ingam,e

[crystal berry]

132 and 400 dpi

[granite shale]

HAHAHA

exactly

double my sens

im not fucking cranking it to make the gun viable

no other gun have i had to change sens

you sir are bricked

[fervent dirge]

i dont change my sens for the scorpevo

[granite shale]

no we just aim at feet because thats a reasonable workaround instead of just giving it realistic recoil

[fervent dirge]

fair enough

the guns usability is far too limited by its recoil

it just doesnt work at all on more open maps

[crystal berry]

My biggest gripe is the reload speed and volume

[granite shale]

THATS THE NERF OF THE GUN

[crystal berry]

I find it serviceable within 100 metres

[fervent dirge]

because you play high sens

think in the brain of an average player not for your own need

its servicable at 40m maybe 50

[crystal berry]

It isnt "High" sens?

converted to source its 3

which is default for all source engine games

[crystal berry]

I just dont think its wise to compensate for either extremities which is why I recommended changes that are the least impactful interms of overall performance

[jovial valve]

Balance means, SMGS should be the best at everything man.

[sly canyon]

Buff VAL Range or Lower its Horizontal recoil
for Evo, just add more attachment to it

[vestal palm]

That's exactly what I was about to suggest lmao

[quiet jolt]

Why is the scorp a carbine? its an SMG....I can see it for thee ASVAL, maybe stick M4 in there and keep 20incher long rifles or battle rifles in the Auto Rifle category, get an AKS74U in carbine, 416c, 36c. Hell keep the M4 where it is, get smaller AR derivative like the mk18 or the like

[north plaza]

I think the scorpion evo should deal a little more damage over distance, as it’s chambered with the same round as the mp5 yet does not come close to the same damage at range.

[cloud plover]

evo should get a quick mag and extended mag as it kinda feels bare when it comes to customizing it

[lethal flume]

Can we have a re-definition of what guns are carbines, SMGs and PDWs?
Its driving me mad

[fervent dirge]

carbines are typically shorter barrelled AR's and may be chambered in a smaller calibre, SMG's are light weight machine guns chambered usually in 9x19mm, PDW's are rifle cartridges that house a smaller caliber

i think

[crisp widget]

G36C and Ak5C should be moved to the carbine section, because the C stands for Carbine (for future reference for the devs)

[wind sleet]

doesn't the c in g36c stand for compact? idk could be carbine but yeah ak5c should def go there

[sly canyon]

pls noooooo!! ak5c range will be nerf to the ground bcse of carbine effective range in this game

[wind sleet]

carbines need a make over tbh

[sly canyon]

IRL definition (idk the definition of those 3 guns in this game)

Carbine: A carbine is a miniaturization of an assault rifle, utilizing less weight, shorter barrel, less volume, and a reduced ammo capacity. Carbine discharge intermediate cartridges which are the same fired by regular assault rifles.

Maximum effective range of carbines: 200-300 meters

Personal Defense Weapon: PDWs are a crossbreed of carbine and sub-machine guns. They are light, compact and maintain a reduced ammo capacity but tend to fire special-sized high-velocity ammo capable of penetrating armor (higher stopping power), higher accuracy, and extending range.

Maximum effective range of PDWs: 100-200 meters

Sub-Machine Guns: Sub-machine guns are much like assault rifles in features but fire pistol cartridges such as the 9mm rounds. In terms of physical size they are usually the size of a carbine or smaller.Sub-machines have a limited range in terms of battlefield standards and therefore are only effective in short-range close-quarter combat.

Maximum effective range of sub-machine guns: 50-100 meters (with overpressure ammunition)

[wind sleet]

but even if carbines don't get a make over atleast bring the scorpion to assault, just makes no sense to not have it just why, why are the devs not allowing me to main assault and brrt people with that thing

[covert nexus]

Carbines comes from the word "carabine" in French. It means a smaller long gun than the standard sized rifle. Rifles used to be crazy long due to line formation usage so 2 rows of men can shoot without the risk of having the one behind the first guy shooting the guy at the front during the black powder muzzle loader era. Cavalry didn't had this issue so they preferred having shorter sized rifle. It's also why you see a lot of "cavalry carbines"

And a submachine gun literally means a carbine which can fire in automatic mode chambered in a pistol cartridge lmao

Which can be pretty massive like the Beretta Model 1938A

• It's not close to an assault rifle. The whole concept of the assault rifle came way after the concept of the submachine gun. The Sturmgewehr concept came during the interwar which led to the real practical theory of it -> development of the Mkb42 program which ended up with the realization of the STG44

It's just a pistol caliber long gun which can shoot full auto. That's a submachine gun. It can have a ton of form format even weirdest ones. The scorpion Evo is definitely a submachine gun

And if you are going to make that a carbine you need to remove the full auto capability otherwise it's a nonsense

• Carbines can also shoot full sized rifle rounds. KAR88 is the Karabiner 88, which is the smaller sized (very small indeed) version of the Gewehr 88 rifle. But it can also shoot dedicated rounds like the .30 carbine round of the M1 Carbine

[lethal flume]

Thanks for the reply.
Sorry, english is not my first language...
I actually meant in the game. Right now there are guns that don't actually fit the category they're placed in.
I really want them to re-arrange the guns so that a carbine is ACTUALLY a carbine, and not a gun that fire SMG-type calibers.

I'd love to see the VAL in PDW, alongside P90.

Scorpion should be an SMG.

I'd place the Honeybadger in the Carbine section but it's quirky so PDW is kosher, I guess.

G36C(arbine) and A(utomat)K(arabin)5 should be CARBINES, for example.

[wind sleet]

ak5c(arbine) so yeah, but just give assault the evo ahhhhh

[covert nexus]

Well the VAL is actually an "Avtomat" which is its own definition (but actually it's close to the current definition of an assault rifle when it comes to the usage of the gun since the 50s, which isn't the same as the 1915 meaning of Avtomat) so being in the carbine section is not that weird Imo. Something funny tho is the M4A1 should be in the carbine session then because it's literally an M4A1 carbine lol. I mean if you take an IRL approach ofc.

And no it doesn't mean "Automat Karabin". It means Avtomat Kalashnikova. Avtomat doesn't mean "automatic". It means Avtomat which is its own definition (present version of the word is close to the definition of "assault rifle". "Automatic" would be "Avtomaticheskaya" like for the AVS-36 or AVT-40 "automatic rifle"

And I agree with the Honey Badger in the carbine session too. Tbh carbines should really have their own identity. Right now it feels not that well defined Imo

[wind sleet]

the ak in ak5c stands for automat karabin, it's swedish i think, oh wait he wrote ak15 ouch

[covert nexus]

Something funny about this word is the fact that the AK-5 based on the FNC is the successor of the AK-4 also meaning "Automatic carbine" but it's a G3A3

[wind sleet]

and another thing is, when we get the g3 is it gonna be a fal sidegrade or actually gonna be the lsw version of it with a bipod, switchable heavy barrel and carrying handel

[covert nexus]

I guess that their definition of carbine at this time period would include this rifle. Idk words meaning can be pretty different. But maybe they compared it to the AG m/42 rifle

[wind sleet]

i have no clue i just want the scorpion on assault that's it

[covert nexus]

This would be the HK11 then not a G3A3. I just hope that it has some diversity. Maybe longer reload time but other buffs because wacky ergo

[wind sleet]

nope there is a g3 variant that's actually a g3, that thing's used by the bundeswehr you can see it on their yt channel, yes for some reason our bundeswehr has a fucking yt channel xD

[covert nexus]

You mean the one very close to the CETME 58 ? It's very rare

And G3 derivatives are nearly all based from the A3 variant

Maybe put an HK51 or 53 as a carbine smh

But ---> Scorpion Evo should be an SMG change my mind

[wind sleet]

well they called it g3 something something so no it actually was a g3

[wind sleet]

no fuck realism, i need it for assault, i don't wanna main medic, i wanna main assault with something else then fal, p90 or m4/g36c

[covert nexus]

The "real" G3 is closer to the CETME 58 on which it was based. It wasn't made in huge number and was quickly modified into the A2 then the A3 variant.

The HK11 is the LSW variant that you mentioned

[wind sleet]

yes a3 and so on but based on the thing

anyways i don't want a fal sidegrade but a proper gun

[orchid ice]

imo it would be cooler to see big ver of scorp evo instead of small thus it could make it's way to assault rifles. Anyway, carabines need to be reworked, i feel like they're kinda pointless atm

[crisp widget]

G36 - Heckler & Koch. With its short 8.98 inch (228 mm) barrel and buttstock folded, the G36C (compact carbine) has an overall length of less than 20 inches— shorter that an MP5 submachine gun. It is the perfect 5.56 mm weapon for use in confined areas such as a vehicle.

Compact Carbine

So yeah its a carbine

[wind sleet]

thx

[crisp widget]

🫡

[wind sleet]

ofc it's a carbine with that barrel but i just didn't know what the c meant Dx

[crisp widget]

When a gun has a C at the end it will almost always mean Carbine/Compact Carbine

[wind sleet]

alr ty ^^

[lethal flume]

A lot of countries also spells Carbine with a K (Karabin), like Sweden for the AK5.

German (Heckler & Koch) also uses K for "Kurz" for "short" , in for example the MP5K. The WW2 rifle "Kar98K" also has the K for "Kurz" at the end.

So in general, a C or K at the end of weapon designations means "smaller than standard" in most cases.. is the little faulty rule I remember for myself.

[wind sleet]

i know about that i just wasn't quite sure, and the k in german weapons is a no brainer for me since well i am german xD

[lethal flume]

ABER DOCH!
My bad! Sorry. Wasn't really sure whether or not to ping you, but it seems like some handy info to have on hand either way

[pseudo charm]

"JuSt CrAnK yOuR sEnS uP eZ"

What a braindead way To Say skill issue

Scorpion should not have that much recoil

Irl it's pretty easy to control

"Oh but its high RPM weapon, it has to be like that"

Ok lets make vector have same absurd recoil then

Lets make all higher RPM guns unusable

As Val need slightly less horizontal recoil, other than that, I find the gun to be good.
But skorpion, oh my god, on my way to rank 200 i have used all guns And made them usable And fun, but this piece of shit garbage weapon will definitely stay on 50 kills until they make some changes to it

It's not even fun to shoot the gun

[wind sleet]

i never said it that way man xD, i just stated it helped me tackle the recoil of that beast, it was meant as an advice not a "skill issue", the problem lies in balancing tho, you can't just have something that kills even faster than the vector, have easily controllable recoil to just keep shooting a whole mag into someone or a group of people, this weapon is "burst this dude down recenter and again"-type of deal, it is not and should not be the vector but with vertical recoil

[pseudo charm]

Nobody says it has to be vector type recoil, it Just has to have easier recoil for people to use it

Not even mentioning the fact that to get the gun to somewhat usable point you need a grip that is like what, 230 kills in?

230 kills of true brain damage

[wind sleet]

280

[pseudo charm]

280 it is then

Even worse

[wind sleet]

yes that is something i can agree with, but telling me i shouldn't give tips and deflect it as a camoflaged "skill issue" really man

[pseudo charm]

i maybe over reacted here, but a gun should never force you to change your sensitivity, that was my main point

also not having scorpion for assault is dumb imho

[wind sleet]

yes def, but i also had kinda low sens sooo it really helped me cope with that bs, but the worst thing about the gun imo are the traces when ads, especially at night you can't see shit when firing, it's your red dot and then a big, glowing egg yolk on your target

and yes i fucking need it on assault

pls make it happen

[pseudo charm]

i just wonder if at some point they will actually turn all the feedback into reality or is it just another way to make people rant away and never take the info from community

[crystal berry]

I have 11000 kills worth of brain damage

[pseudo charm]

there have bbeen so many good ideas dropped here and i just wish shit actually happens

[pseudo charm]

i feel sorry for your loss

[wind sleet]

634 kills of egg yolk on my sight picture 💀

ok why tf does the burk feel better recoil wise then the vertical grip

[pseudo charm]

xd

[wind sleet]

idk it feels inconsistent but the vert grip makes that worse ig

[autumn tusk]

@wind sleet has earned the Tier I Member role!

[wind sleet]

oh fuck i'm a level 1 no life now yay

[pseudo charm]

massive W

[wind sleet]

more like massiv L

[scarlet ravine]

I saw a lot of people proposing suggestions along the lines of what the bandage change eventually became so that's either a remarkable coincidence or they do pay attention to the comments here.

I'd be surprised if they literally go through every single one of them, but they probably throw the logs into ChatGPT or something and get a summary of the most common proposals.

[wind sleet]

they got a group of dedecated players summarizing the proposals

[pseudo charm]

i've been here since first playtests

a lot of good stuff just got entirely neglected

[cloud plover]

evo doesn’t need a recoil buff, but it desperately needs more mag options

[wind sleet]

a slight recoil buff would help, rn i shoot people 20m away and miss like 2/3 of my shots even with good recoil control, it just feels frustrating to use, imo it wouldn't need a quick mag if it was on assault, which sadly it isn't for some reason but an extended and short mag would probaly be interesting to see

[radiant solar]

The evo scorpion recoil is extremely over the top. The gun is uncontrollable. Seems like it could use a recoil buff

[lean jungle]

shouldn't the archetypes just have rational themes? a lot of this convo is going gun-by-gun and considering changes, but the thread is about categories themselves. currently the carbine/pdw classes seem to lack identity.

for example:

PDWs might retain the damage characteristics and mobility (soldier running speed/ADS time) of SMGs and the damage falloff of ARs, but have poor recoil characteristics - they're skill cannons

carbines are totally intermediate between SMGs and ARs in terms of recoil, damage falloff, and mobility - they're decent all-around weapons (I think a lot of guns, e.g., the M4 could be moved to this category)

SMGs are easy to control, have high mobility, and quick damage fall off (in the 10m neighborhood, similar to the vector) - they occupy less their current role of all-arounders and more the role of the vector in its current state

ARs have decent control, intermediate mobility, and have very good damage fall off - with a nerf to SMGs they'd more seriously occupy their current niche

starting from these concepts makes actually placing weapons in different categories easier (you can just look at IRL weapon caliber as a starting point) as well as how to distribute their stats for balancing

[runic flicker]

I feel the smaller and more close range ARs such as the current M4 could stand to be moved to carbines, like previously said, while the heavier hitting more mid range focused weapons could stay being assault rifles

[runic flicker]

I don't feel the need for any weapon to be like that to be honest, recoil should be somewhat controlable in most guns, it could get a nerf elsewhere but as it stands it's the kind of weapon that isn't fun to play with or against

For me at least, the way I'd do it is:

SMGs and PDWs don't need to be separate if they don't interact differently to armor, and i don't think making armor interactions different would be all that healthy for the game, so i'd merge them into 'SMG'.

SMGs are pistol and sub caliber guns that excel between 0 and 50 meters, but struggle to hit targets much past that, either by high recoil, inaccuracy or slow bullet velocity, and have high damage drops from very up close.(these excel at rushing and up close gameplay)

Carbines: These are your honey badgers, AS Vals, Groza 4s, M4s, G36Cs, Famas' and AK5Cs, they can be used to a bit farther ranges, and are still controlable, but lack the raw close range power and total mobility provided by SMGs. They aren't as fast as SMGs, but they have a bit more controlability/range

ARs: Here is how i think things start to differ for me, ARs would take your longer and harder hitting weapons like the AK15 and Scar H or the FAL, and give them their own category. For starters, i would make their damage from 0 to 50m slightly lower, but rising up to their current damage with distance before they start to go down again(think of snipers in battlefield 1), while making them more controlable on account of their weight, or have a slightly higher max damage depending on the weapon. This would turn the 'assault rifle' category into a bit more long range one, with less focus on mobility in order to excel between say 60 and 180 meters with controlable burst and tap fire in the longer ranges.

LSWs and LMGs: Same as the ARs in some regards, i'd make their damage lesser up close, but make them overall more controlable, thus stopping them from being a effective laser up close while giving them enough controlability to do their job between 60 and 200-240 meters.

DMRs: Same thing, the damage going up when reaching 100 meters, and taking them into 2 tap range before it starts going down again, making their niche more close to 100 to 300-400 meters

This way you get to keep some form of the current SMG/Carbine close range meta, while actually separating the weapons into sensible categories, playstiles and ranges

As it stands, everything feels like a SMG or carbine, just some are way bulkier and less mobile than others

You should not have that many issues hitting someone from 80 meters away with say a Honey badger as with a UMP 45, and neither the groza or the honey badger fit the 'PDW' category, they aren't compact and both fire similarly sized cartridges as ARs, just fitted for lower velocities

As well as the P90 being a PDW while the MP7 is a SMG, while both were specifically made with the same standards and for the same purpose, is slightly bizarre to me

They even fire exceedingly similar tiny sub caliber rounds

The scorpion EVO counting as a carbine as well is kind of baffling, it's the most SMG a SMG can be

[wind sleet]

cool concept 👍 but the honeybadger is a pdw

could use some tweaking to work with balance, maps, gameflow etc. a little but overall very interesting

[runic flicker]

I'm not sure how i'd consider a .300 blackout gun a PDW, and then go and consider a AS VAL a carbine, since the concept it very similar and it even uses a carbine frame

But i digress

[radiant solar]

I dunno how you define a personal defense weapon cuz technically they all could be one. I think they should class them as SBRs

This is how it’s classified so yeah a honey badger would fit. Personal defense weapons (PDWs) are a class of compact, magazine-fed, submachine gun-like firearms designed to fire rifle-like cartridges.

[runic flicker]

Well, rifle-like is a bit of a stretch, expecially looking at 5.7mm(P90) and 4.6(Mp7), the two that pretty much started the whole thing, i wouldn't really classify a .300 blackout, which is the exact opposite of those and much more alike the 9x39(holy moly the .300 blackout and the 9x39 are big) the AS VAL and VSS Vintorez fire

PDWs from their inception have been lightweight and small weapons for backline and logistic soldiers to be able to pierce body armor at close ranges, they did this with exceedingly small yet very high velocity rounds, the biggest difference between what was previously considered a submachinegun and a PDW being exactly that, the armor penetration capabilities

Both the Honey Badger and AS VAL though, have the exact opposite idea in the ammunition they fire, it being sub-sonic yet very bulky and heavy cartridges for integraly suppressed carbine sized guns, with the main purpose of making them more silent via the absence of a sonic crack following the projectile

God i nerded out here, but yeah, this might be personal opinion or whatever, but i don't think the honey badger really fits the design doctrine that birthed the concept of a PDW

[radiant solar]

Most PDWs fire a small-caliber (generally less than 8 millimetres or 0.31 inches in diameter), high-velocity centerfire bottleneck cartridge resembling a scaled-down intermediate rifle cartridge, essentially making them an "in-between" hybrid between a submachine gun and a carbine.

[runic flicker]

Yeah, which is pretty much the opposite of a honey badger in .300 blackout, the idea with PDWs is bullet velocity over bullet mass, thus why 5.7 resembles a scaled down 5.56mm

[radiant solar]

Key word is most PDWs not all

Then is an FN five-seven a pdw? Shoot, the exact same round is a P90 excepted to handgun. So again, I don’t know how they classify it exactly

[runic flicker]

The main thing about the whole project that started the idea of a PDW was 'get a small and compact SMG sized weapon with armor piercing capabilities at close ranges so our logistics and transport troops can at least fight back in case of airborn behind enemy lines assaults'
It's not any gun with sub caliber rounds, it was specifically made to be small primary weapons that were capable of getting through paratrooper armor to defend dudes that weren't supposed to see the front lines, not the pistols that came along with it

That's why both the Mp7 and the P90 are the quintessential examples of a PDW, because they were literally the weapons made for the criteria

Now both a AS VAL or a Honey Badger have a VERY different purpose in mind, that being accurate close and mid range very quiet fire for covert and less loud than usual operations

They are by nature of their design, offensive guns

[radiant solar]

I understand I own a lot of the guns in this game but after all it’s a game.

[runic flicker]

Oh, i get that, i just feel it wouldn't change much balance wise to not have the Honey badger as a PDW, and it would just make a bit more sense for the logic of the gun to have it as a Carbine

Same with the groza, i'm not sure why it's also a PDW as per the game's classification, expecially while the MP7 remains a SMG

[radiant solar]

I totally agree the M4A1 is a carbine as well.

[wind sleet]

oh well carbine, idk had it in mind as a home defence weapon and my little peanut brain was like "yeah pdw, it's just one word from hdw so yes that's it" sry Dx

[snow notch]

How is the scorpion even remotely usable?

[wind sleet]

after hitting your head against a wall and telling yourself it's just your skill issue, grinding out 280 kills with it for the vertical grip and putting your vertical sensitivity as high as the game allows, but srsly this gun is nearly unusable if you don't waste hours on playing with it

[snow notch]

I feel like it wouldn't be as terrible if they just added barrel attachments

then again, the muzzle brake in this game doesn't fight vertical recoil as well as a real life brake would

[wind sleet]

we'll have to see, devs are now on the api for community servers so waiting is the name of the game or how ever tf that saying goes

[wind sleet]

the "heavy barrel" is a fucking barret 50cal. muzzel break ahhhhh

[knotty island]

I really want to like this gun (Scorpion EVO) but god does it feel like dog shit tier. I just started grinding the vertical grip... does it actually get better? I don't want to change my vert sens just to make it not feel so dogshit. Every day I play with it I feel like I have to get used to how absurd the recoil on it is. Why can't we have a barrel and quick mag for this shit when the recoil is this crap? Does going from 2.6 vert to 2ish vert really make this gun not feel like a chore?

[wind sleet]

it still takes getting used to it after that - i think i'm at around 500-600 kills with it - but a quick mag wouldn't really be needed if it was on assault, which it isn't for some reason :/

but a barrel would def help

[knotty island]

Yeah I think tactical + vert might it feel somewhat not ass because right now this gun just makes you feel like a sitting duck if you ever see anyone outside 20 meters.

[wind sleet]

although it's a carbine so we probaly can't look forward to barrel attatchments

[fallow sandal]

i mean, there's no reason why it shouldn't have them

it's not like it's internally suppressed like the honey badger or as val

(pic is from battlefield 4)

[wind sleet]

the funi is that that thing is not a carbine, it's an smg (scorpion evo a1), there is a carbine version but it's only semi auto but whatever

[fallow sandal]

either way, the scorpion not having magazine or barrel attachments seems like an oversight more than anything. considering it's the last gun you unlock, maybe oki just hasn't gotten around to adding them yet

[wind sleet]

if it gets mag attachments pls no quickmag
but bring it to assault, that'd be enough of a reload speed bonus to make it more effective

[snow notch]

well, scorpion is better with a grip but holy cow the learning curve is crazy

also it rivals the old vector for ttk, if not faster in close range.

[crystal berry]

The damage output is on-par with pre-nerf asval

[fervent dirge]

"rivals"

it has the best TTK in the game bar none

it is way too unruly though, i've gotten to the point where the sheer amount of RPM causes the horizontal recoil to be more of a problem as its hard to just drag your mouse straight down without budging at all

[light granite]

l86 long barrel

[fervent dirge]

scorpion evo is faster

[light granite]

true but only by 4ms and if you ignore bullet travel

if you factor ads time, then mp7 wins

[fervent dirge]

you can fire before you ads

i think

[smoky star]

Yo-yo you

[stable wyvern]

This entire category of weapons makes no sense. The Skorpion is an SMG and the VSS essentially fits the same role as the Honey Badger.

As far as balance goes, the AS VAL is incredibly underwhelming and has far too much side to side recoil to justify having a 20 round mag and no muzzle options to start with, which is only worsened by the 30 round mag when attached. The damage fall off is also far worse than any SMG, which would be bad if the side to side recoil didn't make mid-range engagements a complete gamble. The only reason to use the VAL is because you want to torture yourself with all the downsides of an SMG with none of the benefits.

[wind sleet]

ass val will be buffed to chad val in the next update

[mortal ridge]

More like side version of Honey Badger

[wind sleet]

they both sucked big doo doo

[mortal ridge]

I mean after the buff they both really similar

Stats wise

[wind sleet]

they were identical before except for their reload and mag size 💀

now they're more distinct

[mortal ridge]

The recoil almost the same the ttk only 20ms different

Same damage drop off

[mortal ridge]

Even reload time is closer together than before the buff

[wind sleet]

but recoil, damage and firerate now distinguish them

[mortal ridge]

Asval have more recoil than honey after buff

Ttk Val is 225 honey 205 after buff only 20ms different

Horizontal recoil Val 1.2 honey 1.1 pretty much the same

[wind sleet]

but the as val is better against armor

[mortal ridge]

I feel like the different won't be that big against armor

Val ttk light and normal 225 heavy 300
Honey to light and normal 205 heavy 341

Not much different

[prime cosmos]

HB ttk against intact enemies went from about 230ms to 244ms

Against broken armour it went from about 193ms to 199ms

[mortal ridge]

HB? Honey badger? Heavy Barrel?

[prime cosmos]

Honey badger

[lyric kiln]

Hi, I think ScorpionEvo needs a buff. This is a very incomprehensible weapon, I understand the developers, he wanted it to be a monster at close range, but at close range even a conditional p90 or vector is often better, because they have a larger magazine and a faster reloading speed, as well as an improvement in the barrel, which gives more advantages. In my opinion, it is necessary either to reduce the vertical recoil so that the scorpion evo represents at least something at an middle distance, or to add a quick magazine(or buff base relaod speed) and barrel attachments like osprey-9

[wind sleet]

honestly it just needs to be on assault

[lyric kiln]

U mean smg?

Or u mean class

[prime cosmos]

scorpion

[wanton kraken]

I feel the Carbines class as a separate category is a bit redundant, since weapons with very similar characteristics are available in either the PDW or SMG slots. The AS VAL is very similar to the HB in many ways, as is the Scorpion to most SMGs.

[stable cape]

scorpion is great as is recoil wise, would love to see it's movespeed boosted to 105/110 otherwise no changes needed

[stable cape]

Pulling down on mouse to control recoil makes it excellent; I have videos to showcase that

however I do agree with earlier posters scorpionEVO fits more in the SMG category than carbine(at least for which model is being used). I think MP7 is also technically a PDW? due to the rifle-like cartridges it fires

[gleaming topaz]

buff the as val again

[steep current]

Make it a dmr

[wind sleet]

vss vintorez

[steep current]

There are a lot of carbine variants for ARs. Might be cool to include them as a selectable body type for guns rather than include them in their own category. Like the AK5d I believe is a carbine variant of the AK5c (do correct me if wrong)? AK74u, stuff like that. Would be neat to be able to exchange out the AR types for the carbine types when selecting the gun. That way they don't feel like filler guns, but extensions of the current guns. Meanwhile the AsVal and such are still in their own category!

[wind sleet]

ak5c and g36c literally have carbine in their acronym

[tender quail]

VSS with 12.7mm bullets and a 10 round mag pls (like ASP-1 Kir from Arma 3)

[wind sleet]

ah yes, hypersonic ammo stealth gun 👍

[tender quail]

is it hypersonic in arma? dunno, all I know its fun to use kek

[wind sleet]

dunno either, never heard of a 12.7mm/50cal. sub sonic round tho

[final hemlock]

It's subsonic in the game and doesn't have that crack. But the bullet trajectory has an insane arc, most of your shots will just fly over the enemy so you need to aim down a bit to hit the head

[thin fractal]

isnt this just the ASh-12/shAK-12

[tender quail]

yeah pretty much, ash12 but cooler

[stable wyvern]

Add exactly one bullet to the scorpion's magazine to make its default capacity divisible by 3 and 6.

[gleaming topaz]

as val 30rd default mag 🙏🏼

[spark onyx]

Scorpion just needs a drum mag and it will be fine.

i dont want to reload every 2-3 kills.

[placid notch]

Scorp needs barrel attachments. Stats is fine

[steep current]

Agree

[wind sleet]

nah that'd make it op
fix bipod and brin scorpion to assault.

[final hemlock]

tried playing a few rounds with scorpion. It is unnecessarily handicapped. It has been nerfed to the point where it is neither a good cqc weapon nor is it even considered for mid range because of the idiotic vertical recoil. You can check your own server statistics to see it is probably at the bottom of the list of player weapon choice.

[steep current]

Did it get changed at all?

[final hemlock]

only once during the overall smg nerfs, but it recieved the worst of all

[steep current]

I don't think it's had any changes since launch

Idk, lemme check

[final hemlock]

i mean, devs gave the vector an overall nerf and its still the most widely used cqc smg. Not sure why they made scorpion so unusable

[steep current]

Looks like the damage just falls a bit more sharply yea. Doesn't seem that major though since it's recoil is so high it's pretty hard to use at any real distance

[final hemlock]

oof recoil is terrible, literally begins launching into space

[prime cosmos]

that's the point

fastest killing gun in the game (or maybe second fastest) but is very hard to use to balance it I guess

way quicker killing than any SMG

[final hemlock]

but now its not used by anyone, because the changes are overboard. It should be nerfed, yes but not to the point where it recieves such a handicap

[steep current]

It's had one change though

Whoops on the reply

[prime cosmos]

I don't think its nerf was significant
it was much less severe than any SMG's nerf all things considered

[steep current]

Referring to the scorpion

[prime cosmos]

people didn't use it much beforehand either due to high unlock requirement

[steep current]

Nothing was changed other than how fast the damage falls off. It's not like bad at all

Perfectly usable and still pretty good

[final hemlock]

perfectly usable, are you joking?

you literally have to start pulling your mouse down to compensate

[steep current]

Yea, it's been like that since launch I'm pretty sure

Idk, I can mostly handle it up close🤷. Good recoil trainer

[final hemlock]

on launch it was a death machine, now its the opposite. except the only rare case you're so close the enemy like within 10m

[steep current]

I mean. That's probably for the best. It's still a death machine imo

[spark onyx]

bro thats just basic recoil control, play any other shooter (r6,csgo, valorant) and you will need to pull ur mouse down way more than the scorpion, all things considered the recoil is pretty easy to control up till 30 meters.

[steep current]

Ummmmm, excuse me

It's CS2 now

Get with the times caveman

[median epoch]

i use it, and plenty of people use it

it's hard to use but very rewarding once you get good at it

all it really needs is barrel/magazine attachments, and a small speed buff so you can close the gap more easily

[spark onyx]

all it needs is quick mag, running speed increase and added to assault.

[median epoch]

and added to assault, yes

[gleaming topaz]

Buff as val again

[final hemlock]

AS VAL is weird, burst shots tend to kill enemies quicker than going full auto

[wind sleet]

no barrels, flurmps up the looks and makes it busted recoil wise, i could get behind the osprey tho
it needs to be on assault + a small run speed buff and it'd be wonderful for aggressive plays but not stupidly op/the meta option for it, keep the meme of it alive

[median epoch]

it looks perfectly fine with barrel attachments in battlefield

pretty sleek, even

[wind sleet]

ain't that a suppressor? no problems with those, just the recoil reducers, maybe flashhider and muzzle break for the meme

[steep current]

It should have barrel attachments

The scorpion is just weird without them

It kind of looks like it would be able to have some

[wind sleet]

i mean hey, what could go wrong with a 1.6 v-recoil gun at a 150ms ttk
pls don't buff the recoil of my baby, supressors alright but nothing removing more recoil...

[steep current]

I mean

You could just change the stats slightly and it'd probably be fine

I would never put a suppressor on it. The recoil is bad enough

[wind sleet]

osprey9 anyone?
recoil reduction on this gun via barrels is just stupid

[prime cosmos]

that is false

damn it messages didnt load

[prime cosmos]

to that

[chilly monolith]

No it's not

Are you stupid?

[prime cosmos]

ermmmmm

bullets do the same amount of damage in all firing modes, Bob!

[chilly monolith]

Nuh uh

[steep current]

https://tenor.com/view/nuh-uh-beocord-no-lol-gif-24435520

When shoot good dps go up

when shoot bad dps go down

therefore single fire is best mode because shoot good best

[median epoch]

the carbine weapon distinction is pointless. put scorpion in the SMG category (as the model depicted in-game is an SMG version of the scorpion), and put AS VAL in the PDW category (is it a PDW? no not really, but neither is G3 a DMR, and it was classified as a PDW in the battlefield games)

[wind sleet]

as val's a carbine, m4 aswell, g36cock, ak5carbine and a couple more i think, is the hk416 a carbine? idk those are atleast the carbines we have, oh honey badger and groza are carbines aswell

[median epoch]

what purpose does having the category serve, though? m4 and g36c are functionally identical to the rest of the assault rifles

AS VAL would be right at home in the PDW section, alongside the honey badger

[wind sleet]

idk, gun nerditry perhaps?

[median epoch]

if gun nerditry was a concern then the scorpion wouldn't be in the carbine category to begin with

[wind sleet]

yeah

idk just keep 'em like that, they're funked and otherwise it'd be just weird idk

[median epoch]

not really. what's weird is having a category for only 2 weapons

scorpion is functionally (and literally) an SMG, and AS VAL is functionally a PDW

[wind sleet]

fair point, i need that evo on assault tho 🤌

[median epoch]

yeah, assault should get SMGs

[wind sleet]

🥛

[noble linden]

I wrote a paragraph or two about this the other day, lemme see if I can find it.

[noble linden]

#battlebit-eng message

[final hemlock]

hk416 design is based on the M4, which is a carbine. But HK prefers to call it assault rifle.

[steep current]

A carbine is the covenant rifle of choice. It's green and shoots hot shit

Duh

Joking aside, I think most of the categories are a bit wack/rough in BBR for sure. I don't think "Assault Rifle" is even a real classification is it?

I believe the term came from the AR's (AR15 and such), but it isn't how they're really classified when you get scientific and nerdy about it

do correct me if I'm wrong

[noble linden]

Assault rifle is a real term. Loosely, it’s a rifle firing an intermediate rifle cartridge which is capable of both semi automatic and automatic fire and feeds from a detachable box magazine.

[wind sleet]

ar15 means armalite, not assault rifle or abything like that
but i agree, gun categories are a little screwed

[prime cosmos]

Nah, the term is assault rifle

AR15 is an assault rifle, that just isn’t the reason for it having AR in its name

Though actually whether or not the ar15 is an assault rifle seems debatable as it depends on the classification you use

[wind sleet]

"AssAuLt cArBIne"
"coMbAT rIFle"
the two other categories that it could be in (that shit's living rent free in my head)

[steep current]

Thanks boys, appreciate the knowledge share!