Personal Defence Weapons (General) - Feedback

[rustic steppe]

Please keep it on topic, and civil, we want serious feedback

• No gifs
• No 'skill issue'
• No video's - (Testing video's in the Polygon are fine)

[haughty panther]

Currently, all PDWs are either balanced or could use a buff.

[zealous idol]

Probably best balanced class of weapons in the game. Honey badger could use slight buff, either less vert or less horz, but not too large of a buff (don't want pre nerf vector back!)

[west lily]

Yeah the lack of some attachment slots on each of them keep them in check, while still being useful

[tropic galleon]

pdws are in my opinion the most enjoyable guns to play. the honeybadger is proly the worst of the pdws but very balanced besides the recoil.
the groza might be a lil overtuned in terms of dmg for accuracy/recoil. it shreds ppl at pretty much any range but is still somewhat balanced by its long reload time. its good in cq but only if you play arround the reload. in my opinion it still might need just a little bit more recoil to be in a perfect spot.
the p90 is also pretty well balanced. it has a little bit more horizontal recoil than comparable weapons but also features a big mag. it also rewards headshots more than lets say the vector.
ads feels great and the weapon overall feels great but its not op for the most part.

[mental isle]

Theyre very strong, i dont think they need a buff at all. They seem like SMGs under a different alias though

[rapid yacht]

Do we really need a separate category for Smgs and PDWs, what if we combine SMG and PDW together? Also... why the Groza is under the PDWcategory, isn't a carbine?

[dim geode]

the P90 is actually just the new vector now

[dim geode]

The reason I say this is because Im getting killed in the same manor as the vector used to. Nearly 1 framed from ~30 meters with little to no time to react. Its got a huge mag and a huge fire rate. Pretty much all the people using the p90 are using it the exact same way they used the vector and its a nearly unbeatable laser with 800 bullets per minute that kills in under 200ms if 4 shots hit (which isnt difficult, especially at <50m which is where its a 4 hit kill).

Disagree or whatever, but this is what Ive experienced on an average ping of ~80. Getting basically one framed by a gun that has no recoil with a mag size of 50 and capable of killing 12 people isnt great

[zealous idol]

if you are getting 1 framed by a P90 you're getting 1 framed by literally half the guns in the game, that doesn't make P90 OP or in need of a nerf.

It's literally not even the fastest PDW TTK wise. Might actually be the slowest, I don't remember honey badgers TTK, but that's pretty fast as well

[dim geode]

It needs more recoil IMO. After you unlock the p90, theres hardly a reason to use the SMG class at all.

Things basically a laser.

You can keep hitting me with clown emojis, but first shot recoil stat and other recoil stats literally show how little recoil the thing has

[zealous idol]

MP5 has faster TTK and literally half the recoil. Vector has faster TTK and less recoil. MP7 has faster TTK and less recoil. I'm sorry but you are just coming in here and having no clue what you talking about

P90 is used to skill gap lobbies because of it's mag effeciency, it's a mid/weak 1v1 weapon. You are complaining about dying to it in 1 frame, but it's not even close to being the fastest TTK weapon or the best; which means you are dying to 1 frame with literally approx 50% of all guns.

You are getting skill gapped by players who are much better than you and can make up for it's mid TTK with better positioning, movement, and aim, you aren't losing because of P90 and it doesn't need a nerf. Those same players would skill gap you much harder with half the other weapons in the game.

[bitter jasper]

Groza might be a bit overtuned. It just doesn’t need to be quite as good as it is.

[shy ridge]

Um @dim geode are you and me playing different games, I've never seen a p90 before.
I'm NA, have a 100 hours right now and mainly play 127 and 64 modes, and not died to it once. I'm not a god, I suck balls at this game, mind you.
Not attacking you, just curious.

[dim geode]

@shy ridge Apparently not because I played for about 2 hours today and the players with a P90 in every lobby were wiping the floor with my team. Different players too. Consistently getting 40+ kills with <10 deaths with that weapon. Only time me and my squad of suck asses were able to kill them was when he got sniped or was already injured

[tropic galleon]

wich is not because of the p90 cuz as was explained to you the p90 isnt a vector. it just gets more common as more people unlock it, theres not a lot of interesting guns other than 2-3 at higher lvls let alone one with good magsize and at least okay damage output. it sits at a rank where people get it after maybe 75-100hours (old xp) of playing, often beeing really good players from other games and now already having quite some practice in this one. thats exactly what gets you killed. i myself dropped a 57 3 with the p90 yesterday.
does that mean its op ? hell no
i wouldve done the same with the vector in easymode. theres guns where you dont have to worry about every single 1vs1 you get into but the p90 is def not one of them..

believe it or not a p90 player on distance vs anyone even only wielding a m4 is shit outta luck

if those people actually can aim that is

and cq you get beaten by any gun that kills faster unless you drop them with headshots and that might get u killed cuz helmets anyway... (fal,vector,badger,mp7,groza,scorpion)

[stray osprey]

Honey Badger could use a slight buff, rest of them seem to be fine the way it is.

[bitter jasper]

P90 ttk is only very slightly slower than the vector now. Like a couple of milliseconds

Also kills faster than MP7 against undamaged opponents

[tropic galleon]

ak15, scar,famas,fal,m110,mp7, vector (still), groza, scorpion, l86, mg36 all kill faster than the p90.
a few ms like 25 also might not sound like much but its noticeable and even on the recieving end every ms you have might let you react in time to avoid that last bullet getting sprayed at you while you lean out or sth

you proly mean aggainst armored enemies ?
the mp7 dev kills quicker than the p90 on someone thats not armored and scince smg users shouldnt really aim for the head unless youre super close -> you dont hit armor that often

[bitter jasper]

25 would be a lot more, I’m thinking more like 2-3

MP7 does kill faster if their armour is destroyed though

[tropic galleon]

its not 2-3

i think it was 225ms if i remember correctly vs 200 but i could be wrong here. the mp7 sits at 180 sth

somewhere arround that

and as said remember : headshots have a bad multiplier so you wont hit helmets with the mp7 that often unless you have no choice and the body armor -> most ppl want no armor there for good reason

so yea sometimes the 7 feels bad in comparison to others if you hit armor but you dont hit armor all the time

[bitter jasper]

P90 vs armoured enemies is 2ms slower ttk than the vector according to my current best estimates.

[tropic galleon]

ah ok that makes sense

[bitter jasper]

20ms on full hp with broken armour

[tropic galleon]

thx for clearing that up 😂

considering how big the difference is with armor on ( to the base ttk) : is it a really a problem ?

even for the vector every single bullet u need adds 50ms

i dont have the big ttk chart right in front of me atm but if u consider armor the ttk in this game isnt that low anymore

anything above 250ms should even leave the average player a chance to at least react no matter what happens after

[fervent gyro]

The Honey Badger could do with a bit less recoil and spread, just a tad bit annoying to use for even 60m+ engagements

Not Vector or P90 levels of laser accuracy, but just a slight nudge towards a bit more accurate

Any HB kill over 50m I get feels like blind luck rather than actually having had better aim than my opponent

[rapid yacht]

Based on what are carbines and PDWs categorised? For example, the Scorpion is 9 mm and is a carbine, while the Groza depending on the version can use either subsonic or rifle ammunition and is under the PDW category.

Honey Badger is also AsVal, I did not understand why they are not together under the same category.

[dull light]

honey badger needs to do less recoil and the p90 could use a slight reload nerf, maybe 100ms slower or so

I've never used the as val so idk if it's balanced or not

i think everything else about the p90 is fine tho, but with it's mag capacity it should not reload as fast as it does

[fervent gyro]

H B could use a reload buff, I don’t see how or why it is this long when you can achieve under 3s with most ARs

[cosmic talon]

As val default mag should be 30 rds

[boreal trout]

P90 and groza are in a good place right now. Do not nerf the p90. Its def good and meta because of its great uptime, but i feel like its balance works because its damage is relatively low and it lacks range

[bitter jasper]

Damage is actually pretty good

Not enough to be super high, but the ttk is lower than it is for most guns

[fervent gyro]

(ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ

Honey Badger pog

Damage nerf doesn’t matter we still have 4 hit breakpoint :)

[bitter jasper]

That matters quite a lot.

Assuming a damage change doesn’t matter because it doesn’t hit one of like 50 breakpoints is not a good way to approach gun balance

[fervent gyro]

It’s a fair change in my opinion. The accuracy and recoil were the main issue with the gun. While you don’t hit for 64 in two anymore, rather 56 in two, you’re still gonna kill more consistently

Your 100HP breakpoint is still 4 shots, that hasn’t changed. You also still cause bleed in 3, the 4th still kills

You’re just more viable at longer ranges now and more consistently hit your shots. The damage nerf doesnt matter in my opinion because the buffs are overwhelmingly positive which more than makes up for it

[vivid notch]

the nerf matters, you can no longer 4shot medium armor

[fervent gyro]

Wait we could 4 shot medium armor before?

Well in that case yeah that’s slightly upsetting but I’m still happy over the accuracy buff

[vivid notch]

recoil and firerate buff is 🔥

[fervent gyro]

I can actually use the gun outside of 30m

[vivid notch]

same but it's aids

[bitter jasper]

honey badger now gets beaten in every stat I consider by the FAL, except for recoil which is a lot less bad than it was

[shy ridge]

At least it's somewhat silenced now

[fervent gyro]

Stealth Medics rise

[vivid notch]

stealth assault is more based-er some would even say the basededest

[fervent gyro]

Yes but we can heal indefinitely

[vivid notch]

🦐 krill issue

[proud flare]

Honey badger is finally playable

[vivid notch]

it was always playable, it just wasn't very fun

[fervent gyro]

It was fine in CQC but that’s any gun

But damn that 4.2 second reload was dumb

[scenic furnace]

isn't the honey badger in 300 blackout supposed to be very quiet or at least easily supressable? Why does it have the defautl 600 sound spread but no option for a muzzle device?

[vivid notch]

it has 200m of sound spread, ui just doesn't show that rn

[scenic furnace]

ah thanks

[fervent gyro]

Holy I can actually hit shit with the HB now

[timber forum]

Just merge PDW and SMG, having two categories of weapons that fill an identical role seems pointless. It's like having Assault Rifles and Battle Rifles, the distinction is pointless

[dull light]

I disagree

it organizes the load outs better

Doesn't have to serve a different purpose

battle rifles as a different class would actually be cool

[dusty pond]

HB recoil was way too high before

1.9 horizontal??? Why

[dull light]

why does it matter what it was pre update

[vivid notch]

because people used the thing for like 700 kills+ cough me cough

[fervent gyro]

How did we ever play like that

[vivid notch]

[compact pewter]

P90 still needs a nerf, it's too easy to get insane killstreaks with it, especially if you get headshots (50% headshot modifier)

[warm trench]

The damage drop off nerf should be universally applied to all the pdws. They're in a pretty good place atm, but it feels weird that the mp5 still can shred at 50m. Maybe the drop off could be less for the pp19 and mp5, but they should defo still be smgs. Plus if you really nerf the damage drop off you could really focus on their strength up close.

If damage drop off doesn't want to be adjusted, horizontal recoil is a fantastic way to nerf the range on the smgs. Horizontal recoil may as well be the actual accuracy stat since it's essentially randomization in the spread/jump of a gun. Very difficult to account for the side to side recoil when trying to control the vertical, so it'd be a great way to nerf the range on smgs without making them feel like pea shooters at range. The fal and ak5c and scar H sort of already have this in place.

[fervent gyro]

Oh no, a minor Honey Badger nerf

[bleak summit]

Started using the honey badger recently after the plethora of changes it's gotten and it's a really solid weapon for skirmishing now, especially the innate reduced sound spread on it. Solid gun.

[polar kelp]

It would be nice if honey badger had is 1 or 2 more magazines.

[fervent gyro]

Or if the quick mag didn’t nerf the mag size

[dusty pond]

It's alright

[bleak summit]

quick mag nerfing mag size is a confusing design decision. I feel like each gun should have more consistency when it comes to mag stat changes

[fervent gyro]

Yeah some guns have a quick mag that doesn’t nerf mag size

Some do

Some have an extended mag

Some don’t

Some have two quick mags, one is faster than the other but nerfs mag size…

[bleak summit]

some have drastic downsides to stats for the reload speed, some don't

[fervent gyro]

Having that be consistent through all weapons would be neat.

[bleak summit]

that goes for all attachments tbh

some are just completely useless

[fervent gyro]

Give each gun two quick and two extends mags tbh.

Give us the options

Then decide for ourselves what we value

Do we want small quick mag for minor reload speed buff, or do we want the other quick mag that’s even faster but you lose capacity

Do we want the normal extending mag that gives a few extra bullets for a minor loading speed decrease

Or do we take the big extendo mag that takes super long to reload

[bleak summit]

I hate that some large mags have such drastic downsides, tbh.

Like I can understand how it would affect run speed/reload speed, but recoil? why?

[fervent gyro]

Hence why there should be a relatively safe option for both with minor increases

And another option for big increase with drawbacks

Make it consistent across all weapons to encourage player choice rather than choosing the Meta gun because it has that attachment that the others don’t

[rapid yacht]

Should they nerf the P90?

Quick magazine + assault buff is OP tbh

[dusty pond]

What is the buff to the speed Assault provides?

I counted the same when I did quick reload with ACR , both classes

[rapid yacht]

Faster reload, ADS and weapon swap

[bitter jasper]

They already did

[bitter jasper]

25%

[rapid yacht]

Uh ok

[dull light]

longer damage drop off

honestly the p90 is fine

the ttk is kinda meh

only reason people like it is cause the mag size

good for multikills

but only if the multiple people you are fighting

are trash

cause any other gun will outclass it in a 1v1

[fervent gyro]

It is a bit of a laser beam but they gave it the drop off treatment so it’s kinda ok

Also I had someone I killed with the HB go “fucking smg cucks…”

I’m like “sir this is a PDW.”
How dare he compare us to those SMG using peasants…

[compact pewter]

say you're clueless without saying it directly

[vivid notch]

say you're clueless without saying it directly 😉
but srsly this guns ttk is mid at best but most people using it are pretty good and will still funk people up with it

[compact pewter]

I'm garbage and can win pretty much every 1v1 unless I get packet loss or I do something that isn't the gun's problem (me missing)

So yes, clueless.

[dull light]

enemy skill issue

[vivid notch]

doubt, or you're not as garbage as you claim to be,
the gun's pretty balanced already got hit with the range nerf so w/e

[compact pewter]

It wasn't balanced before, at all, now it's more inline to being reasonable.

[vivid notch]

it is an s-tier gun for sure but no pre nerf vector?

[compact pewter]

Stop putting words in my mouth

[vivid notch]

well you were implying it is broken and the only gun that was broken in ea up until now was the vector imo, so putting words in your mouth? moreso putting it into context, no bad faith here just that i think you're not correct with "p90 op"

[compact pewter]

no

XD

[vivid notch]

you were saying it's broken tho, which it isn't

[compact pewter]

I was saying it's broken before the nerf

but calling the ttk mid is actually dumb

[vivid notch]

it isn't dumb, even if it isn't the longest ttk out there it still feels like a pretty weak hitting weapon

[warm trench]

Battlebit players try not to argue challenge 😔

[vivid notch]

impossible

[bitter jasper]

Mm. Mid as far as guns without especially slow ttk are concerned.

[severe totem]

I don't know if its just me but the reload on the honey badger seems a bit slow. (Default mag) The quick mag is fine. I prefer not to use with the already low ammo count. I've yet to use the extended.

[fervent gyro]

Extended is basically old reload

[dusty pond]

just fast reload it since most of the time you don't live to use all mags

[warm trench]

Add the pdwr

[dusty pond]

Add mpx

[vivid notch]

going to get added

[bitter jasper]

add m

[amber blade]

I feel like the HB's extended mag should add more than 3 bullets lmao

[vivid notch]

3 bullets for downsides everywhere else, the darn thing moves slower than a base m4 with the extended mag
30 vs 28 bullets
foldable vs non foldable stock
shorter barrel (hb has a suppressor ik but still)

[fervent gyro]

Can quick mag not nerf our mag capacity on the HB pls?

20 boolets is painfully little

We have quick mags that maintain mag size

[fervent gyro]

Honestly the fact that this thread is mostly quiet, it makes me feel like people think that PDW are in a good spot with a few tweaks here and there

I'd be inclined to agree, PDW feel nice to use and I don't feel bullshitted when I get got by one

[haughty panther]

I don't like the recent damage-fall of nerfs to PDWs, but there's no point in saying it over and over.

[polar kelp]

Not bad compared to smg

[haughty panther]

Bad as in too strong or too weak?

[fervent gyro]

they said "not bad" tho

[fervent gyro]

ok rant here but was there a baby nerf to the HB?

I keep getting 4 Hitmarkers but not killing, even in CQC????

like something feels off here

[polar kelp]

32 dmg went to 28dmg. Rate of fire increase, dmg drop off increase to 40m, recoil decreased. Nothing else new

[fervent gyro]

weird

[vivid notch]

4 shots, one of those was a hs, with the g3 and the dude still wasn't dead, hit reg do be funny sometimes

[bitter jasper]

Chances are the last one was denied by the server due to you being already dead

[polar kelp]

Honey Badger seems lacking. I miss the 5 extra ammo from mp5

[timber forum]

Groza is still bullshit, the rest are fine

[dull light]

whats wrong with groza?

[vivid notch]

laser with fal ttk, 10/10 "balance"

[bitter jasper]

Right behind it in the ranking against unarmoured things, though that is still quite a big difference. FAL and scorpion are just way better than anything else there

[fervent gyro]

where HB? >:(

[timber forum]

Groza is a high damage laser you can effectively put 100% of your rounds on-target over long distance

I wanted to win a CTF round really bad, so I switched to groza/medic and got 114 kills with very little effort and very little skill, no one could beat me in a 1v1

[bitter jasper]

HB ranks 13th here

Ignoring the long barrel ARs

[wise stone]

groza is on par with the FAL in regards to TTK, they're both 0.185

no one cares about your fake meme sheet

they're both a 3 shot kill and they both have 650 rpm

except groza has more bullets, no recoil, and a longer reload time (which doesn't matter because groza shitters don't live long enough to reload anyway)

[bitter jasper]

Groza cannot kill with a headshot + bodyshot

That is pretty major

Ignoring this is being wilfully ignorant of situations that can and do happen in game.

this is how they generally compare against armoured and unarmoured enemies respectively. Though impacts of damage dropoff and velocity are not represented in this

[wise stone]

again, no one gives a shit about your fake meme sheet

[bitter jasper]

their loss

[wise stone]

both the FAL and the groza can kill with bodyshots in 0.185, and with headshots in 0.092, and no amount of obfuscating is going to change that

[bitter jasper]

I literally just explained this
if you hit one headshot with the FAL it's a 2 shot, the same is not true for the Groza

ignoring this is pointless

[wise stone]

it's an edge case

[bitter jasper]

not really

[wise stone]

your whole concept of trying to build a sheet around edge cases is really, really fucking stupid

[bitter jasper]

it isn't hugely unlikely

[wise stone]

and you should stop asserting it everywhere, because no one cares

[bitter jasper]

...why?? ignoring a ton of breakpoints can never make your conclusion more accurate

literally pretending things don't exist when they very much do

anyway check out this ai generated skibidi toilet

[wise stone]

im not saying it doesn't exist, im saying it's not relevant enough to try and skew TTKs

[bitter jasper]

if more accuracy is "skewing" then sure.

[wise stone]

if you aim for the head then you're actually bad at the game

[bitter jasper]

this holds up with a 17.1% headshot chance. I can redo it with another value if you'd like

[bitter jasper]

interesting take

[wise stone]

i mean if you like hitting helmets then have fun with that

upper torso bypasses both armor and helmets

[bitter jasper]

hitting helmets is always better than hitting limbs

[wise stone]

lol no

[bitter jasper]

the only reason you don't want to aim for the head specifically is that you can hit the body by mistake

[bitter jasper]

an exo helmet (also the only one that covers the face) will give you 99 effective head HP. Compared to 100 for limbs

[wise stone]

no one cares about your "values". you're obfuscating numerical statistics of the weapons

[bitter jasper]

ignoring important data is obfuscating.

[wise stone]

someone inexperienced sees your dumbass sheet and thinks groza actually kills slower than the FAL

[bitter jasper]

it's no better than cherry picking, even if there is no motive behind it

[bitter jasper]

and they'd be right

[wise stone]

stop posting

you're intentionally misleading people lmao

[bitter jasper]

the sheet is based around the average player's performance (as rated by the community)
so for the average player it is accurate

[wise stone]

genuinely uninstall discord

you're getting a kick from fooling new players into thinking 2 guns with the exact same TTK don't have the exact same TTK

[bitter jasper]

There are cases where the FAL kills faster than the Groza. There are no cases where the Groza kills faster than the FAL. It is literally not possible for them to be the same

it's absurd even.

[wise stone]

they're edge cases. at baseline they kill at the exact same speed

[bitter jasper]

even on unarmoured foes it's hardly an edge case. It will happen like a third of the time

on armour the difference is far more pronounced

it becomes a majority case there I believe

[wise stone]

again, if you aim for armor then you're bad at the game

[bitter jasper]

That's why I have two charts

but the first one is based on how most players play.

[wise stone]

you should have 0 charts, delete them because you have no idea what you're talking about

[fervent gyro]

idk man I trust the guy who's been here for 2 years

[wise stone]

i trust people that don't obfuscate weapon stats

[bitter jasper]

you're honestly just really annoying at this point

if you want to argue with me give me some actual reasoning, please

there are actually some valid counterarguments to this but you're just giving really dumb takes

[fervent gyro]

(and also being needlessly hostile but that's just the average BBR player anyway)

[wise stone]

a TTK is not supposed to represent all the different edge cases that can happen because that's what they are, edge cases. it is a fools errand to try and represent them all in a number, and you're misleading new players by making them think 2 weapons, both with 650 rpm and 3 shot kills, have different TTKs

[bitter jasper]

what about when the edge cases happen most of the time?

call it a fool's errand but it takes me like 5 seconds to compute them all

ignoring data can never increase its accuracy. Even if I considered an edge case with a 0.1% chance of happening, it will be represented as 0.1% of the final value it spits out. Where is the issue with that?

if you've really convinced yourself that there is no difference between a 34 and 40 damage weapon then I just don't know what to say to you

[wise stone]

would be really nice if you stopped strawmanning me

i get that you don't have an argument but like, don't, lmao. i never said that there is no difference between 34 and 40 damage

this is how you actually convey information. not with a single, skewed number

they have the same TTK baseline, but groza is worse at dealing with armor

this is all it takes

[bitter jasper]

#1138742624849768509 message I guess I should quote this. You have heavily implied they're the same in ttk throughout this whole argument.

[wise stone]

they have the same TTK baseline, and you're willingly misleading new players by claiming otherwise

so like, stop

[bitter jasper]

yeah this is way less useful to the average player. You're supposed to look at a grid of 10 3dp numbers and think "yep thats the ttk"? Especially as in reality there are much more that this omits

[wise stone]

there is nothing less useful than your sheet

it's not only useless, it is actively misleading

[bitter jasper]

pretending something that exists does not exist is misleading. A ttk chart that doesn't even try to weight the importance of the breakpoints is very misleading

[fervent gyro]

Well, given experience, I still think the Groza is better

[bitter jasper]

for example EXO pure bodyshot breakpoint - that is genuinely an edge case. But it is represented here equally with all the others

the idea of mine is to represent all cases proportionally to how likely they are to happen

I could split mine into a grid like that if you want, but it would be harder to read and harder to gain actual useful info from

[fervent gyro]

this has turned from a PDW Discussion to a Microsoft Excel Discussion that happens to contain a PDW

[wise stone]

do you think it's easy to gain actual information from a single number

especially when it's incorrect

do you think this is actually, unironically, genuinely useful

[bitter jasper]

it tells you everything you need to know - which is how well your weapon will do on average

presenting it in a convoluted, overcomplicated and cherry picked format is way less helpful

[wise stone]

no, it's an incorrect number skewed by your idea of "average"

you're skewing numbers and presenting them as a fact

[bitter jasper]

average = all scenarios summed weighted for the likelihood of their occurrence.

[wise stone]

it doesn't even say that it's an "average"

it just says TTK, which is factually wrong

and again, it's misleading to anyone that doesn't know better

[bitter jasper]

the one you posted is a brilliant example of how stats can mislead people. All breakpoints are treated equally when in reality they totally are not

[wise stone]

dude you're actually just deflecting lmao

[bitter jasper]

The full document does clearly explain that

[wise stone]

it is a simple sheet of the weapons and how they do against no armor, and then armor

[fervent gyro]

...I lost what the original argument was, what's goin' here?

[wise stone]

you're not posting the full document here

you're posting a snippet

claiming to be the TTK

[bitter jasper]

I can't, this server doesn't allow the link I think. I can DM it though?

yeah it doesn't let me

[wise stone]

there is nothing i want to see less in my life

the point is that you either need to stop posting, or you need to rename "TTK" to something like "solar sausage's fucked up definition of TTK" as to not mislead anyone

[bitter jasper]

the document has disclaimers and lists all assumptions made for the generation of these values

[wise stone]

then include those disclaimers in the snippets you post

[bitter jasper]

I'd be spamming the same screenshot 20x a day :p

[wise stone]

because a new player is going to come in, read that FAL has a 0.156 TTK, and take it at face value

[bitter jasper]

that would be best for them - because that's how well it'll likely do.

[wise stone]

you actually enjoy gaslighting

[bitter jasper]

anyway here are the assumptions of the model

[fervent gyro]

Well no, I get solar's point, while yes, the theoretical baseline TTK is 0.185 and the same, but that doesn't really apply for a real game?
Sure Groza and FAL have 0.185s TTK but, in a real game, you have reaction time, movement, the guy could already be injured

[bitter jasper]

in the real game there is a common scenario where the FAL kills in 2 shots but the Groza doesn't

most ttk sheets pretend this doesn't exist

[fervent gyro]

like you're both kinda right

goobie is right in saying "aye, this is the basline ttk" and we can all agree on that

[bitter jasper]

yeah
however it's a useless value

[fervent gyro]

solar's sheet is just "hey, accounting for actual gameplay circumstances, this is what it'll probably look like"

so maybe just adding a disclaimer on solar's end saying that it's merely assumed results accounted for volatile gameplay circumstances and player skill could solve your dispute

you have a theoretical and a assumative practical sheet

nothing wrong with either really

anyway buff HB quick mag :)

[bitter jasper]

yeah it does tell you that if you think you perform differently to what it expects, that you can recompute it with different values for hit rates

which I have offered to do for people before but people seem more willing to throw insults than cooperate

[wise stone]

completely missing the point as usual. it is not that the data is skewed the wrong way, the problem is that it's skewed at all. but you clearly derive enjoyment from gaslighting new players so you do you

[fervent gyro]

nooo I think now you're the one missing the point

Yes your baseline TTK is correct and we all agree that would be 0.185.
All Solar is doing is assuming an average on certain gameplay circumstances that are unknown and extremely volatile but can be averaged out to a common value. Using those assumed values, using the theoretical baseline TTK, a new "How it's probably gonna go" value.

Solar isn't trying to say baseline .185 is wrong, he's just saying "ok but in a real game it might look a little something like this"

I see no fault in either of your approaches

it's booksmart vs streetsmart

Anyway back to buffing quick mag on HB (seriously who thought nerfing it to 20 was a good idea)

[bitter jasper]

I think the issue is that many guns exclusively benefit from quick mag, or at least have tiny penalties. I think quick mags should be a bit worse in those and a bit better in the guns they're actually bad on rn.

[timber forum]

Solar sausage, I speak for all when I say your sheets are fantastic and everyone's very impressed, but just like your dick, stop showing them in public

[fervent gyro]

[vivid notch]

[warm trench]

I ain't gonna read all that

Simplify it within 30 words or less to match my iq

[fervent gyro]

groza good

[wise stone]

good in the sense that it's strong, not good in the sense that it's well balanced

[warm trench]

Did our "groza op" gaslighting work 💀?

[fervent gyro]

wouldnt say op

just very good

compared to the other pdws

[warm trench]

I honestly think the reload time does make it tough to use at times

Like, it's actually gotten me killed a few times when I use it.

It's good when you're shooting though for sure