Sub Machine Guns (General) - Feedback

[vague goblet]

it's been weird. i went from consistent 60-80 kill games to being on pace for 100+ kill games and i haven't changed anything?

like i think i played 7 games in a row where nobody was using mines/claymores in a useful way

like just putting one down in the middle of the room in full view of a door?

it's disturbing

the vector salt was back in full swing though so that was nice

[silver sail]

idk i just had absolute bots in my team, it was impossible to do any sort of flanking because the team just couldn't hold a point for a minute and got steamrolled leaving me with no distractions whatsoever

[vague goblet]

i had those yesterday as well. dustydew game where my team spent the first 5 minutes stuck in the buildings between d and b unable to push

[silver sail]

and even playing the objectives was impossible with medics not doing shit and people walking around like headless chickens

[vague goblet]

and then suddenly i got a lucky break and sat between a/b/c and farmed like 5 or 6 8+ multi's?

it was fucking bizarre

while my team was still stuck between d and b????

[silver sail]

and someone just managed to get the humvee stuck on the first objective a freaking joke

[vague goblet]

tbh the shit i was seeing yesterday was so sad lol. so many games where i get like a huge solo push, kill like 9-10 people by myself, die. team still stuck in the same spot, nobody has moved forward at all. then have to respawn even further back because team is all stuck in combat

[wicked spire]

smgs function better than 50% of the ars, would like to see a buff to ars and a range dropoff to smgs

[analog cloak]

That statement implies that SMGs and ARs are exactly equal in balance

[warm ingot]

i still dont know why we just give smgs more horizontal so theyre harder to hit in the same spot at long ranges

and fix horizontal recoil being reduced by lean

[vague goblet]

It’s not reduced it’s that horizontal is typically more annoying to account for and correct and leaning causes the horizontal recoil to be applied more vertically

Also that’d be a bigger nerf to ar’s. Why would you want that?

[strong dove]

I'd prefer less horizontal on all guns tbh horizontal kind of boring to play with. It's not the biggest deal, you can counter it with reactive tracking, but it requires a ton more concentration and that causes fatigue more quickly

At most, smgs can have their drop off changed a bit. Slightly more vertical recoil would be fine but I don't think smgs/ars are in as bad of a spot as most players seem to think.

[warm ingot]

i dont think any of them are in a bad spot, just that smgs are way too effective at all ranges

like, i just unlocked P90, i dont care if it says "pDw", technically its an smg, and that gun is disgusting

[strong dove]

Maybe some ARs have to much horizontal recoil. Pp19, mp5, and ump all have low h recoil, but some ars have around 1-1.5 which could be reduced imo.

[warm ingot]

no recoil, good damage, good firerate, fast reload, big big mags

[warm ingot]

SG550 is a worse Mp5 but with higher horizontall

[strong dove]

P90 my fav gun in the game, but I don't really think it's OP. It's the gun I use to out skill the lobby, but if I'm running into a lot of good players I'll usually swap to something else like fal or scorpion with the faster and more reliable ttk.

Sg550 is better than Mp5 at range, and has the fastest ads speed in the game so it's still good at cqc, I wouldn't say it's a worse Mp5 at all. I think mp5 and some of the other smgs are just easy to get value out of because of how easy they are to use(low recoil). But if you have really good recoil control there are better options

The vector and Mp5 sort of feel like crutch weapons to me. I guess for some players p90 can feel like one, too, though I don't think it needs changing personally

[daring tinsel]

Like walk said, sg550 is a beast at range lmao. It's what the Aug wished it was.

[analog cloak]

The sg550 has way more recoil than the aug

[daring tinsel]

It actually has better recoil than the aug

Basically no vertical recoil still, with lower horizontal recoil

[analog cloak]

It has a higher fire rate, which amplifies it.

And I would say at range horizontal recoil will harm you more than vertical, and SG550 has more horizontal than the AUG

[daring tinsel]

Oops I got the numbers mixed

Ah I remember why now

I run flash hider on sg550

Mandatory for the gun imo

As far as I'm concerned, both guns have no recoil

Except the Aug has something like 33% worse ttk

[analog cloak]

It’s about 15%

SG550 is a fairly slow killer itself

[warm ingot]

sg ttk is low because it has like 27 damage and a meh rate of fire

[daring tinsel]

Where are you looking?

I'm seeing closer to 30% for normal armor

[daring tinsel]

It's actually very average

But gets above average damage drop-off characteristics

The ttk is by no means bad

Unlike the Aug which is dead last, by far

[analog cloak]

My spreadsheet :D

SSG ranks poorly in ttk against enemies whether they’re armoured or not

[daring tinsel]

🗿

I'm going off oxigens sheet

[daring tinsel]

It's just average in the ar category

[analog cloak]

Nah

ARs are fairly good in ttk generally

I think on average PDWs and carbines beat them though

[daring tinsel]

Average ar ttk is 331

Sg is 343

Pretty god damn average to me

[analog cloak]

For ARs against intact opponents it’s about 245ms with SG550 being about 334ms

[daring tinsel]

And coupled with the fact that it has bettter damage drop-off than most ARs

Yeah in practice it's also just avg

[daring tinsel]

Where the hell are you getting 245 from

No armor?

[analog cloak]

Mm. I’ve had to explain the method several times before

I will just say it takes into account varying hit locations and considers a realistic distribution of armour

[daring tinsel]

Lmao

No point in taking then

[analog cloak]

wdym

[daring tinsel]

All this just means I have no clue how you arrive at your numbers, which means any discussion about what is already highly theoretical becomes completely and utterly pointless

[analog cloak]

I can give you the source code used to generate them if you like?

It’s a large scale simulation based thing

[daring tinsel]

If anything the SG on ttk sheets is even less theoretical than most guns due to less recoil

[analog cloak]

yeah, I don’t have an objective way of taking recoil into account for ttk. I consider it sufficient to just consider what affect it will have for the weapon in general

I have tried to compile H recoil, V recoil, fsk and fire rate to make a single value for recoil but the formula is subjective

[daring tinsel]

Nobody does really

[daring tinsel]

Yeah that's why I was saying there wouldn't be much point in discussing this

[analog cloak]

ttk still matters as a baseline ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[daring tinsel]

I agree, but we're disagreeing on what ttk numbers to use as the baseline to begin with

[analog cloak]

Well, the most realistic ones we can get

[weak quartz]

Tried playing with it, switched to long barrel and it's just too good switch back. Muzzle flash is not that bad.

[solemn oasis]

i've stuck to FH on the SG550 for the horizontal lol

[daring tinsel]

lb on it doesn't really hit any important breakpoints tho

[weak quartz]

More accuracy is always welcome

[daring tinsel]

less horizontal recoil = more accuracy anyway

[analog cloak]

they nerfed the smgs I guess

except maybe UMP that one is just baffling

[silver sedge]

Inb4 gamer tantrums

[analog cloak]

As far as I am concerned

The MP5 has now gone from this

To this

In its usefulness

Though the UMP

it now kills faster than a Groza

[daring tinsel]

oof that mp5 nerf

[analog cloak]

👀

[daring tinsel]

and i don't get why mp7 has the same dropoff as the pp19

it should have less if pp19 is going to be the "long-range" smg option

also the mp5 now has both worse ttk and worse dropoff than mp7

rip lol

[analog cloak]

Low recoil does also imply that there isn’t a lot of force behind the bullet so… it makes sense I guess?

[daring tinsel]

i'm just talking purely from a game balance perspective

ig mp7 is prob going be a better option than the mp5 now

[analog cloak]

My opinion of SMGs after the next patch is that they have gone from ok to bad. I know people don’t like them being able to fight in a wide variety of ranges but they really needed it

Though the MP7 nerf wasn’t that major.

They should at least be made to generally beat ARs in CQC now, since their low recoil matters so much less than it did

[patent dome]

Time to grind ACR and sg550 soon

Maybe Famas

[vague goblet]

it's fine, the FAL was already the superior SMG, now it's just significantly ahead instead of being a little bit close

[queen spruce]

Why do some smgs deal more damage than ARs?

[unreal cairn]

no clue to be blunt beside balancing

[gleaming lake]

Honestly no clue, the mp5 is still king after the latest patch

[wet violet]

I don't think that's really an issue as long as the drop-off is bigger
The thing that annoys me is less the damage and more the recoil characteristics
Smgs should be better at killing people at their range, with higher recoil limiting how far they can be used at, and ARs being more consistent across all ranges with less recoil to allow better mid range bursts and taps imo
Unless recoil is absurd, it's never really a problem up close, but always becomes more of a factor the farther away you are

[analog cloak]

SMGs having high recoil just doesn’t really make sense though

If you shoot a bullet with less force there is less recoil force to deal with

[wet violet]

Actually, it does make sense
Most SMGs irl are less controllable than longer and heavier guns
They generally are smaller, have high cyclic rates and low weight, you can be precise and hit targets from far away with a .22 lr, but good luck being accurate with a mp7 in full, especially if compared to say a m4, an Aug or a L86

This isn't a "ooh it's like real life so it should be like this" argument though
It's more so that it's weird to have more recoil on the guns that are supposed to work better farther away, instead of any balancing factor that actually hits their performance up close instead

[analog cloak]

Yeah the weight and size thing is important, though it seems in the battlebit universe having a heavier gun gives you worse recoil which is a little odd

SMGs are currently bad though as far as I’m concerned so I will oppose any ideas that would make them weaker.

[unreal cairn]

the range hit was that bad sausage?

[wet violet]

Eh, they seem fine from what I've tested
I don't think they need more nerfing, just find the recoil setup weird

[vague goblet]

I mean, they really weren’t much better than ars in their intended range (pretty much just ads speed and move speed advantage)

[wet violet]

The MP5 still slaps, and I feel less dirty using it so that's a plus

The UMP now has 3 shot potential

[vague goblet]

And it still feels like shit to use

[wet violet]

And that makes it a funny smg cannon up close

[vague goblet]

Also, figured out why the mp7 feels good but my score lines are always worse with it

[wet violet]

What? Are we thinking of the same ump?

[vague goblet]

The mp7 is very consistent at getting the 75 damage assist, where it doesn’t give you the assist counts as kill

[solemn oasis]

or just have smgs less accurate, but there's always people going "if you have enough skill you should be able to kill with the smg at ridiculous aim"

[vague goblet]

It has the same issue I have with the ak15/scar where sometimes the last bullet just never seems to connect

[wet violet]

Eh, they are fine rn imo

[vague goblet]

Where you’d expect 3 to kill I’m waiting on bullet 6 to actually deal damage server side

Makes no fucking sense

[wet violet]

Heh, I feel like that's more an issue with the AK and the Scar tbh
From 10 to 60m the ump slaps, at least from my experience

[vague goblet]

I tried it and didn’t like it, what can you do

[wet violet]

Actually, now that the dmrs are way better, it would be cool to revisit those 2's horizontal recoil or movespeed

[vague goblet]

Got my vector back though woooo

Prestiging a second time was arguably a mistake

But I’m gonna do atleast 3 (:

[wet violet]

They aren't bad per se, but they do feel outclassed by pretty much everything else
You can run a 2x scope on a MK20 and have a scar but better

That seems like AR thread discussion tho, not SMG

Darn you flow of consciousness

[vague goblet]

Facts, I’m following it though. I see how you got from A to D here

[unreal cairn]

suppose a question of what the average TTK is supposed to be is to be asked

[warm ingot]

m249 weighting like 10kg, on the ground, with a bipod having more recoil than a hipfired mp7

a gun that heavy with a bipod wouldnt even move

[warm ingot]

is it the last bullet or some bullets dont connect? i feel like i had this issue with the SG550 where i fired at people a ton and looked away thinking theyd die but they just didnt

i swear id land like 8 hits and theyd be walkin just fine

[vague goblet]

It’s just weirdness with hitreg. I’ve had the FAL land 3 non-armor hit markers and the enemy lived

Shits fucking weird

[warm ingot]

yeah happened to me with m110, fal

just today i was using the svd and i landed 3 shots on someones head and none counted as a headshot

not even the killing one

distance was like 50-100 meters, they didnt move an inch and the only visible part was their head

so there would be no way to hit their body

[vague goblet]

Wooo hitbox jank

My fucking favorite

[warm ingot]

i suspect it might be the servers refresh rate and ping problems too

so many times i go prone behind cover and die a second later

[analog cloak]

server refresh rate will effectively add ~6ms of ping compared to a 240hz server

which is a fairly minor factor

your connection is far more likely to be the bigger contributor

[warm ingot]

would be funny if its somehow my connection considering i have no problem in any other game

1gb upload/download

[vague goblet]

Playing on a 240hz server with the same 60 ping I’ve had to official servers and it’s night and day. Even still there’s hitreg issues but I really can’t do anything until someone hosts a central 240 server

[unreal cairn]

that or desync

[analog cloak]

it is going to be more or less imperceptible. A percieved difference is likely mostly just that.

[vague goblet]

nah there's a very noticable difference. like extremely

[analog cloak]

a 0-12ms reduction in enemy latency is literally the only thing it does

[vague goblet]

playing official servers with 60 ms feels like playing wow classic before they removed batching (the server was handling all actions on a 400ms timer, 0ms tick start you press button at 200 ms enemy press button at 300 ms, both actions occur at 400ms) imagine feeling that kind of delay in every gun fight?

because that's what official servers feel like

go behind cover and have time to pull a bandage or medkit out before dying from bullets around the corner

it was fucking unreal

playing community 240hz server with same 60ms feels like playing an official server at 30ms

[analog cloak]

that would be from something other than 240hz

[vague goblet]

doesn't really change the reality that there is a clear consistent difference between any official server where i've had 60 ms vs playing on a community server with the same ping

someday someone will host a 240hz central us server and you'll never hear from me again because i'll finally get to pinglord people

[violet geyser]

The MP5 reload animation is wrong in the game

[violet geyser]

you don't pull the gun cocking handle when there's round in the chamber, just change mags

in the game it does that anyways and the gun doesn't eject the round in the chamber despite pulling the cocking handle

or is this possibly some of the devs way to make the reload animation longer?

[daring tinsel]

it's prob wrong just because it's wrong

[unreal cairn]

charging handle & it is closed bolt to my knowledge (the Mp5)

[violet geyser]

yeah charging handle, didnt know what it was in english

having used that gun irl it just stuck out

[strong dove]

I thought you always had to do that w/ the MP5? Maybe an older version or something?

maybe it was another gun I was thinking of

[wet violet]

The MP5 is interesting for being literally just a downscaled G-3
They were like "well we could have a properly compact and cheap gun but our soldiers are already well trained on the G-3, just make that smaller"

[subtle oyster]

decrease accuracy by 50% on all SMGs

[queen spruce]

Mpx whefe

[unreal cairn]

(Support in corner going "Spare change? Spare change please?" when it comes to weapons)

[ember forge]

UMP needs a nerf back, 35 damage is just simply too much and it currently fucks every other weapon in CQB

[analog cloak]

Mmm nah

It’s weaker than the Groza still

And only useful in CQC

It is not one of the most powerful guns for sure.

[silver sail]

on range maybe and magsize, but the recoil isn't bad, the damage is better, the reload's faster and pretty sure the movement speed aswell idk, the ump is another op crutch gun just like the groza turning it into what it is now was kinda tone deaf

[analog cloak]

Damage is worse in general from headshot mult

[silver sail]

shut your theoretical brain up for once pls even tho the headshot might not be as great the recoil + movement and the good reload make the ump busted
meanwhile the fal has some of the most atrocious recoil ever

[proud pewter]

both the UMP and groza are blatantly overtuned. just because groza is even more cancer does not mean UMP is fine

[analog cloak]

yeah, I just don't support a UMP nerf unless the Groza was nerfed first

Groza has gone untouched for far too long

[ember forge]

groza just needs horizontal recoil

[gleaming lake]

"it's weaker than the most untouched, OP gun in the game"

Therefore we shouldn't touch it??

[analog cloak]

basically yeah
I can't support nerfing guns if there are better guns that are not being nerfed

[silver sail]

nerf 'em both ffs

[queen spruce]

Groza is fine. 3.15 first shot multiple balances it.

[silver sail]

fsk does nothing, just pull down and pouf

[daring tinsel]

at longer ranges it does increase the effective ttk

[proud pewter]

no❤️

[proud pewter]

groza isn't really viable super far out to begin with because of 390 velocity

but in the ranges where velocity isn't a problem, it's actually braindead

one of the fastest TTKs in the whole game, for 1.20/0.60 recoil

[maiden spindle]

[GrozaAce] Dev0s here, don't nerf the Groza! Only ace gunners can use it properly.

[queen spruce]

Groza is balanced but keep on complaining.

[daring tinsel]

it's good for sure, but i don't see why everybody is hyperfocused on the groza when there are quite a few guns with faster ttk while still being very easy to use

groza is hardly unique in that regard

and if anything, the long-ass reload even on a mag drop is a pretty significant weakness in 128/254 gamemodes

[proud pewter]

care to give an example? 🙂

[daring tinsel]

VAL, HB, FAMAS, etc. 🙂

[proud pewter]

AS VAL is the only one with a faster TTK. it only has 20 bullets and quite a lot of recoil

so yeah, you're talking out of your ass

[silver sail]

Val and hb are good but not op like the groza and famas is a worse mp7 if you will
stop talking bs

[proud pewter]

actually

AS VAL is only faster with LB

without it, it has a slower TTK than the groza

it's impressive how wrong you are

[daring tinsel]

huh? it's so easy to control. if you have problems controlling the val, idk what to say

and no, all the guns have faster ttk

[proud pewter]

source: your ass

[silver sail]

what lb? that thing can't attach anything on the barrel, double suppressor XD

[daring tinsel]

unless you're claiming oxigen's spreadsheet is incorrect

i literally have the numbers in front of me

[maiden spindle]

https://tenor.com/view/popcorn-blob-gif-23105869

[daring tinsel]

clueless mfers

[silver sail]

groza is still faster with less recoil

[proud pewter]

according to eleanor's spreadsheet, groza has 0.092 TTK, HB has 0.136, AS VAL has 0.150, FAMAS has 0.133

[daring tinsel]

.092 ttk wut?

no gun in the game has .092 ttk

idk where this eleanor is pulling their numbers from, but it's definitely wrong

i don't think the server tick rate would even be able to handle automatic weapons with that sort of ttk

[silver sail]

ye not even hs ttk reaches those levels of "bzzttt you're ded"

[proud pewter]

ah, i was looking at the headshot table

with bodyshots groza has 0.185, HB has 0.205, AS VAL has 0.225, FAMAS has 0.200

so yeah, you're still blatantly wrong, just not nearly as much

[daring tinsel]

lmfao, where's all the bravado from earlier

[daring tinsel]

this is going off normal armor

which is what most people are running

[proud pewter]

no, that's going off 100 HP

[daring tinsel]

yes, the numbers you are quoting assumes no armor

the numbers i'm referencing assume medium armor

in this sort of test, i would never assume the guy is damaged

kinda defeats the point

[proud pewter]

armor covers a very small portion of your player model, and hardly ever affects the outcome in a firefight. but sure, in like 1 case scenario the AS VAL has slightly faster TTK (with two thirds of the bullets and far more recoil)

cherrypicking sure is a wonderful thing, isn't it

in regards to them being "very easy to use", literally all of them have both higher vertical and horizontal recoil

[daring tinsel]

dude, you were literally going off body shots earlier yourself

and what covers the body? armor.

[daring tinsel]

that's right, all of the guns i listed are very easy to use

i never claimed they had statistically better recoil, because quite frankly, it doesn't matter

[proud pewter]

it doesn't cover even all of your chest, let alone your arms and legs

[proud pewter]

it doesn't matter because it kinda makes you look like you're talking out of your ass, don't it

[daring tinsel]

at the ranges where these sort of weapons are effective, the recoil on any of those guns don't matter

if you have problem controlling the recoil... then, well

i'll do my best not to judge

[proud pewter]

i don't think you're in any position to judge anyone considering how blatantly wrong you are defending the groza

[daring tinsel]

says the guy who was looking at the wrong fucking spreadsheet and making a fool of himself

[proud pewter]

"b-but one of these guns has a faster TTK in one very specific circumstance! (with two thirds of the bullets and higher recoil)"

[daring tinsel]

now that i think about it

[proud pewter]

someone's projecting

[daring tinsel]

this entire conversation started off with you looking at the wrong ttk numbers

and then you doubled down on them

of all the hills to die on lol

[proud pewter]

they're literally the same thing whether you look at bodyshot or headshot numbers

[silver sail]

"oh yeah the val isn't as overtuned and bs as the groza"

[daring tinsel]

but you do you mate, have a nice day

[proud pewter]

you don't have an argument so you have to nitpick at shit like that so you don't look braindead

[silver sail]

he didn't double down on the ttk stats buddy

[unreal cairn]

(Aims low to hit legs)

[daring tinsel]

just the entire first half of this conversation

[daring tinsel]

yeah, except willing to bet most people go for the head/upper torso because muscle memory from every other shooter

and leg shots only work against people out in the open

[unreal cairn]

than you got tarkaov and so on

[unreal cairn]

also arm shots

which do effect if you aim near torso

[daring tinsel]

except center mass, where the armor is, still has the greatest surface area

rather than the arms

[daring tinsel]

prob the only other fps i can think of in that regard

[unreal cairn]

to my knowledge most other FPS games also do asimplified version of armor at best (AKA just a protection bar that either helps in damage reduction (AKA half life & such) or takes the hit for your health)

[proud pewter]

upper torso huh? that's interesting

wonder where the arms are

[unreal cairn]

well aimming around neck/shoulder level seems good place to target

also some armor discussion ideas I had

#1152896217517391902 message

[proud pewter]

yeah, you kinda get to bypass armor completely if you shoot the arms, don't you?

it's too bad that you are, purely hypothetically, forced to discard that kind of information when it goes against your only real argument

[unreal cairn]

arms or legs

[proud pewter]

yup

[unreal cairn]

and based on looking at that image

in a 1v1 gunfight with the other guy ADS, head/neck level seem like a good place to aim ,even with the legs behind cover due to how big the arms take up space along the shoulders mixed with being so close to the head

[daring tinsel]

so you picked an example where the enemy is in your face looking directly at you. what was that about cherrypicking earlier?

[proud pewter]

if your enemy isn't pointing back at you, then TTK kinda doesn't matter, does it? you'll just kill him before he has the chance to turn around

[daring tinsel]

it doesn't change the fact that armor still covers more of the top half of the body than either the head or arms

[proud pewter]

whatever helps you sleep at night, sunshine

[daring tinsel]

how would it not matter lol

your ability to kill before they react depends entirely on your effective TTK

[daring tinsel]

i sleep well at night, thanks. it's helped by the fact that i'm not whining about the groza thinking that it has a 0.092 ttk 🙂

but now that you've finally figured it out

maybe you'll sleep better too

[unreal cairn]

I will say it makes sense to account for people who have when through a fight & lost their helmet (looks at medics running low armor and healing themselves)

[unreal cairn]

in fairiness this is a case of a 1v1 where the enemy has full armor in exo and is aimmed at you (Fairly commmon to see all but the full exo part, which other armors offer less)

Thus it is actually to your benefit some in this case

[proud pewter]

it does if you hit only headshots! but i guess you can't really expect that from someone who thought famas has a better TTK than the groza...

[daring tinsel]

unless we have some pretty thorough statistical analysis, it's impossible to determine how much armor the average enemy has left in any given engagement

hence the useage of medium armor as the baseline

[unreal cairn]

I will make a mention considering the wide spread use of light medics

[daring tinsel]

1v1, no cover, and at point blank range. hence my remark about it being a cherrypicked example.

[unreal cairn]

it makes sense to consider unarmored

[daring tinsel]

yes, i agree

light armor is common, so i think that might serve as a baseline too

but i don't think it makes sense to assume you're up against damaged opponents

because if their armor is gone, there's a good chance a chunk of their HP will be gone too

and that's just impossible to account for

[unreal cairn]

to use a baseline of light medics

they will 9/10 have survived a fight & lost some armor (generally helmet)

and be at full HP

[daring tinsel]

rich coming from a guy complaining about as val recoil lol

[unreal cairn]

Helmet only has 12 HP afterall

[daring tinsel]

and you know this how

most people probably only get one kill and die right afterwards lol

so a lot of your opponents will be fresh with armor intact too

[unreal cairn]

Equally it is a case of revives exists

[daring tinsel]

maybe, maybe not

none of us have the tools to know for sure

so this is just pure speculation

[unreal cairn]

I simply find unarmored is a good starting point

[daring tinsel]

agree to disagree, guns are balanced around armor existing

[unreal cairn]

since those reasons assume the worse & we can assume the best later

[daring tinsel]

rather than everyone having exactly 100 hp

[unreal cairn]

equally it makes the ability to bypass body armor far easier to argue as a headsup

[proud pewter]

speaking from experience?

[daring tinsel]

sounds more applicable to someone who can't even handle the as val tbh 🤔

but it's aight, this convo is all wildly off topic

none of the guns we're talking about are SMGs

[silver sedge]

And people wonder why they don’t read everything in the feedback threads.

It seems like over half of all the messages in here are just insults and pointless arguments instead of usable feedback

[daring tinsel]

so i'm calling it a day here before the mods nuke this thread like the vehicles thread

[daring tinsel]

i can only assume they thought the groza was a smg 🤷

[mighty moss]

hot idea to balance SMGs: reduce movement speed to something reasonable

[vague goblet]

they are reasonable

[patent dome]

reasonable being what? AR guns are at 1.0. With attachments for AR, its like 0.97-0.99.

[silver sail]

40+km/h with the right equipment
usain bolt reached like 44 as his fastest speed ever, and that was only for a small part of his world record run his average speed was smth between 38-40 so um yes constant 40km/h with 15kg of gear seems kind of insane xD

[proud pewter]

this is a videogame

gameplay takes precedent over realism, and being able to go fast is fun (and necessary to be able to close the gap)

[silver sail]

i am very well aware thank you

only said it's ridiculous
especially when compared to the slower side of the spectrum...

[proud pewter]

that's a support issue, not an smg issue

[silver sail]

yes, obviously...

[analog cloak]

Reasonable meaning if they didn’t have this advantage then they’d be useless weapons

[vague goblet]

Some of the ar’s reach 1.05/1.1 move speed as is. Same as most smgs

[silver sail]

which ars reach 1.1ms?

[wet violet]

Sadly the fal

It should not do that

Honestly if I could change the movement, what I'd do is
Get the current movement, subtract 0.95, cut the remaining value in half, then readd the 0.95

Anything below 0.95 is faster and Anything above is slower

So 1.1 would turn to be about 1.025

And 1.05 would go to 1

[silver sail]

the fal doesn't reach those speeds, stat wise maybe but in actuality it's like 0.03
there's some funky thing going on with movement speed mutlipliers on attachments only doing 1/5 of the advertised speed loss/gain

[wet violet]

Actually, I dont think I'd apply to anything below 0.95, just the stuff above

[wet violet]

Oh, thank God then

[silver sail]

someone found that out a while back pls don't ask me who, where and when cuz i have no fucking idea dementia 'n shit (a joke obviously)
wait what was the joke again?

[vague goblet]

I thought the attachment bug was fixed

[silver sail]

nope it's effect only got halfed after effectively killing lsws

[vague goblet]

Ah of course

[silver sail]

oh yeah and snipers aswell

[vague goblet]

Snipers can kick rocks. Support needs help

[silver sail]

yeah def

[unreal cairn]

fal with short mag to my knowledge

[silver sail]

nope it's actually 1.03, movement adjustments via attachments only do 1/5 of what is advertised in the stats

[unreal cairn]

interesting

[eternal bolt]

Damage drop-off start needs to be tripled. Balancing weapons by making them straight useless is just bad design.

[analog cloak]

It’s literally 20m for most of them

SMGs are terrible at mid range

Loosing frequently to an MP5 at mid-range doesn’t make it OP, it means either the weapon is just popular or you have a… significant limitation when it comes to skill.

[leaden heath]

honestly i feel like SMG damage drop-off should start at 10m like with the kriss (with the exception of the PP19). it makes no sense that something like the MP7 shreds in CQC but also deals full damage at 40 meters out

[silver sail]

remember, recoil + 25dmg breakpoint, it's not that effective even at like 35m, i think it's ok, what isn't ok is the ump and groza...

[vague goblet]

UMP should probably just be disabled till it can be fixed

[patent dome]

Mp5 does <23 dmg after 60m and it's a sharp decline from there so bullets to kill increases to 6 and higher. 7 bullets (17dmg) at 80m for 125 hp. At full armor/hp, MP5 loses pretty much to anything outside of CQC range, even to F2000s. UMP does MP5 dmg at 60m then it drops off.

[silver sail]

wow you realized what an smg is, i'm proud of you
and yeah fix that ar with erectile disfunction known as the ump

[eternal bolt]

Yes, because SMG bullets magically lose all their kinetic energy 50m in on virtue of being an SMG. However, it's fine that ARs, DMRs, and Snipers can perform just as well up close within the SMG range as they can perform in their actual niche ranges.

[silver sail]

average ar ttk vs average smg ttk...

[silver sedge]

I mean, irl a 9mm will have about 70% of muzzle energy at ~50m

And at 100m it’ll have about 53% of muzzle energy.

[vague goblet]

If we wanna talk about realism I want the ultra laser vector like irl

Otherwise shush, stop using it as a shitty arguing point for why smgs need to not be viable in the game

[silver sail]

i mean they are, just not fucking with ars that hard anymore, but ye trying to grind to lvl200 again really only leaves the mp7 or a crutch that should just auto ban you XD

[vague goblet]

Yeah that’s my point. And people wanna nerf them all further

[silver sail]

didn't see anyone saying that hmm

[vague goblet]

Don’t make me scroll up to find the guy literally in the last 48 hours saying to push all smg fall off start down to 10m

[silver sail]

oh yeah that guy

[vague goblet]

These people are delusional

[silver sail]

ye we need good balance

but well ump and groza

[vague goblet]

Ye

Ump groza, support, scope glint

[silver sail]

and also m110 got its ass fucked a little to hard

[vague goblet]

The fuckin

Server desync

60 ms is definitely closer to 100-150

[silver sail]

yes

[vague goblet]

Imagine getting a scorpion mag dump on a guy with 5+ hit markers, dying, teammate gets the trade, assist 26…….

Aintnoway

That’s at 60ms

Where are my bullets oki?

[silver sedge]

it's also gotta have a stoppage every mag and a half then lol

[silver sail]

and dump an entire mag for only the last 5 bullets to do something

[silver sedge]

and do literally zero damage if it hits the torso of a player wearing any armor at all

[vague goblet]

The thing that bothers me, is there’s basically 0 central us servers as far as I can tell. I can spend hours joining leaving looking for 1 server where I get 30 ms

So I either don’t play battlebit, or I play on this whack ping

[eternal bolt]

Wrong thread.

[vague goblet]

True, still salty

Actually hol up I got this

I get 1 framed by the ump

There wrapped around to on topic

[eternal bolt]

Lol

[vague goblet]

😛

[silver sedge]

just up your framerate then 4head

ez fix

[vague goblet]

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttt u right dawg

That a lot harder to do on mobile

[silver sail]

pov battletits on steam deck

[silver sedge]

i play on my apple watch and get 300fps easy

[vague goblet]

I get 180 on my toaster but it goes down to 30 when I’m tryna make waffles

It’s a real problem

[unreal cairn]

so to start off, make them have 60m Range compared to their 50m prior to nerf (So outranging most ARs)

[eternal bolt]

Is tripling it only 60m? Shit. Let's quintuple it. I want no less than 100m.

[queen spruce]

deleted

[solemn oasis]

I'm fine with realistic fall off if there's realistic movement speed and map sizes. The full Mil sim experience 😂

Walk 5km just to die

[wet violet]

I mean we do have pretty good bullet speed and falloff
The issue is the movement is all fucked, the map sizes are okay and whatnot, the issue is you literally cannot reliably hit people changing directions if they're not super close and your gun isn't a railcannon rn

It's not even a 'get gud' thing, there is no amount of skill to reliably lead a shot on someone that might as well be vibrating in and out of this realm of existance

And it takes significantly less skill to do it than the difficulty to hit shots it create

Most systems in this game would work much better with each other if we had a minimal amount of inertia

Not even necessarily like speed reductions, just "doing a 785° spin does not maintain your entire inertia"

[solemn oasis]

Fr. Being able to spin on a dime and the sprint prone nonsense gives some whack af hitboxes

[vague goblet]

I’m not even sure it’s hitboxes. At 60 ms I’ve been 1 framed by a support who swung me where he came around the corner at sprint speed then proned and shot. On my screen I was dead before he went prone

[silver sail]

same for everything really, even tho i already had like 5 shots up their ass they just kill me... server connection at its best...

but a support doing that is actually funny to hear as yk they're so thiccc

[wet violet]

You know a thing that helps mitigate issues with server connection?
Movement inertia and movement tech balance taming
Not even joking but besides everything I talked about, it Improves the the reliability of hits and the consistency of gameplay dramatically across multiple latency ranges

[solemn oasis]

Yeah being "one-shot" by piss weak guns like the f2k.

Server shenanigans 😂

[vague goblet]

I just assume I haven’t hit someone at this point. The hit markers are a lie

[solemn oasis]

I mag dump until I get score.

[vague goblet]

4-5 hits then die for an assist 25

0 packet loss

[solemn oasis]

Too many times I've dumped enough bullets but somehow no kill or even the right amounts of hits registered. Really rustles my jimmies when I rewatch in slo mo on shadowplay.

Yeah no packet loss too, like wtf even.

[silver sail]

an entire scorpion mag and it took the last 5 bullets, 150ms to 1.75s ttk 💀

[vague goblet]

I’m starting to suspect there’s some lag comp fuckery as well

[solemn oasis]

😂 All I know is high rof win game.

[vague goblet]

People from Europe playing on the same eastern us server with double my ping having fewer issues

[silver sail]

tell that to my scorpion ._.

[analog cloak]

you die or they die?

[silver sail]

loki ded

[vague goblet]

I die

4-5 hits with an mp7 or skorpion and I get an assist as if only 1 hit landed

Same issues with FAL/ump/ak15/scar. Enough hits to kill and then an assist that isn’t even a “counts as kill” because half my shots never registered server side

[analog cloak]

yeah that would be hits being denied because you were dead

[vague goblet]

Yeah I have 60 ms bro

Explain how I die like it’s 250?

[analog cloak]

I'm not sure. I have noticed it being more pronounced recently as well but I can't be sure if that's real or imagined

with the ping I get it should be impossible for more than one hit to be denied before I die

[patent dome]

Mp5: starting drop off starts at 35m instead of 20m 😓

[leaden heath]

MP5 is fine. it has virtually no recoil, 20m serves it well

what is not fine is MP7 not starting at 20m

[icy prism]

ump needs dmg nerfs

[vague goblet]

facts

[daring tinsel]

Damage to 34, RPM to 1200

[vague goblet]

new vector?

sounds good to me, ship it

[leaden heath]

you say it as a joke but at this point anything is possible with oki balancing

[silver sail]

mg3 with tons of recoil and 800rpm

[wet violet]

The fact PDWs exist as their own category, having 2 carbines and a PDW in it, while the only other PDW in the game is classified as an SMG will forever be incredibly frustrating for my passable-at-best-gun-knowledge self

PDWs are literally a subcategory of SMGs

[opaque latch]

no

smgs use pistol cartridges, while pdws use cartridges intermediate between pistol and rifle to try and balance smg advantages while having more penetration

[silver sedge]

So you’re saying a pdw is some sort of sub-caliber machine gun? I wish there was a word for that.

[opaque latch]

it's an smg like firearm that uses rounds higher in power than pistol, but less powerful than AR rounds

(which themselves are "intermediate" rounds between pistol and proper rifle rounds like the lsws use)

here we go @silver sedge

[silver sedge]

Yeah I’m aware of what a pdw is. You can still technically refer to them as submachine guns, though

[silver sedge]

I already know all about 4.6x30 and 5.7x28 and the pdw trials lol you don’t need to explain

[opaque latch]

On the left is a .22 pistol cartridge
Middle 5.57 used by p90
right 5m56 used by m16

[silver sedge]

And what an intermediate cartridge is

[opaque latch]

just found a good image is all

[silver sedge]

Yeah the image is fine, I already do know all of that though.

I was just pointing out that you can technically call the MP7 and the P90 submachine guns

Both Fabrique Nationale and Heckler and Koch refer to their PDWs as submachine guns anyway.

Or at least some of their marketing materials do.

[opaque latch]

And the m4 is a carbine

But it's in ARs, and we don't have an m16

(it's official name is literally Carbine, Caliber 5.56 mm, M4)

[silver sedge]

Yeah I know

I don’t really understand what the point is though, sorry.

[eternal bolt]

I'm typing this because my friend doesn't want to give Discord their phone number, and as a result, they are unverified and cannot post here. For reference, they got on BattleBit for the first time in weeks. They're around level 50ish. They quickly took note of how bad the PP2000 felt at most ranges. They were initially going negative, taking note of the majority of their deaths were from ARs and then Snipers some. They proceeded to switch to the F2000 and started wrecking. They went from something like 3-8 to something like 27-11 that match. Then they went 2.0+ the following match. They asked me what the point of that SMG 10% speed buff was when players could just camp with ARs and shoot you from a corner of the room or at a distance. They commented on how busted the F2000 was, how it had low recoil, how they could kill regardless of distance. Basically, they felt that ARs and SMGs just switched places. They felt that if the developers insist on really making SMGs do shit damage at anything not immediately in arm's reach, then the speed bonus either needs to be upped by a lot (like 50% bonus) or be reworked to allow shooting while sprinting to actually give the mobility purpose.

[analog cloak]

Some people still say SMGs are meta so they can’t be that bad. I do agree they generally should be a little stronger rn though, aside from perhaps UMP

[silver sail]

smg doesn't work at range "suprised pikachu"
bad positioning leads to death
"suprised pikachu"
ars are good allrounders
"suprised pikachu"
truly the argument for smgs of all time

[eternal bolt]

Personally, I still hold the controversial opinion that balancing through damage fall-off is just bad design, and should only ever be used on hitscan weapons: #1138742525440565258 message

It just doesn't feel good being denied the same allrounder potential that ARs, DMRs, and Sniper have through damage fall-off, and nothing else to really show for it. It just punishes players that take the risk to engage in high risk engagements through an arbitrary means.

[eternal bolt]

Dawg, I literally picked recon last night on one of those sandy maps. I was on a cylindrical structure, and I headshotted 3 people in a row on the opposite cylindrical structure that was definitely sub 50 meters. With your logic for how weapons work, that should be impossible, and until you become consistent in your ideas for how weapons should be balanced, you are really in no place to speak or criticize.

[silver sail]

nuh uh, smg no good at range but good close up, a sniper is more difficult to use smh

[analog cloak]

AR good everywhere 😎

[eternal bolt]

Those three kills were fucking easy.

[silver sail]

dmrs and snipers suck up close my guy stop smoking shit my guy

[eternal bolt]

Peak, headshot. Peak, headshot. Peak, headshot.

Easiest k/d of my life.

[silver sail]

*positioning

[eternal bolt]

Positioning in this case didn't involve range, and snipers are long ranged weapons.

It involved cover in a <50m engagement.

Weapons with high damage / low RoF benefit from cover in general more than low damage / High RoF.

[silver sail]

with an smg you run in
a sniper takes a good spot to be effective
idk what you're taking to come to the conclusion positioning shouldn't be an important factor...
anyways byeeeeee

[eternal bolt]

According to chatGPT, P90's effective range is 200m lmao.

If we're going for realism, as so many have claimed, it would lose 50% muzzle velocity at 200-250 meters.

But that's a PDW in this game.

[eternal bolt]

Always has been.

[eternal bolt]

In well-designed games, positioning naturally becomes an important factor. No need for shoe-horned "balance". But if the devs really want to go this route, they need to up the damage of SMGs at close range to that of the UMP, so that they have higher potential than ARs within their own niche, and then they can make it fall off to oblivion afterwards. Right now, they're just glorified popcorn shooters.

[silver sail]

you're a funny fella

[analog cloak]

Gun balance is extremely important in a game with ttks like this

Positioning is only a factor for a well designed game if the game is designed around positioning, which it definitely doesn’t have to be

I so think SMGs need to kill a little faster generally though.

[eternal bolt]

When I say shoe-horned, I mean balance that doesn't come naturally. Damage, RoF, Bullet Velocity alone can balance an entire roster. Changes in damage over distance, especially steep ones, just make the game feel less skill-full and more arbitrary. Nerfing damage over distance on slower bullets just kills the skill ceiling in favor of streamlining how weapons are used.

[analog cloak]

Are you saying you’d rather all guns share the same damage dropoff profile? Because that’s what it looks like

[eternal bolt]

Yeah, as many pointed out, BattleBit has a bit of an identity crisis which plays a large part in the divide of the community. One group wants a largely agile and individual-oriented experience, where the purpose of classes is to excel at a particular niche. Another wants a grounded team-oriented experience, where each class exists to serve a distinct role and only fulfill that role. I think this bleeds into weapon design philosophy as well. I want weapons to excel at a particular niche, but to still be usable in another.

[analog cloak]

Agreed on that point

People were previously complaining that ARs didn’t have a place as SMGs could for the most part match them in their usable ranges
Which by this point is totally untrue of course

[eternal bolt]

Tbh, I'd rather there be no damage drop-off at all, but that might require re-examining weapon balance as a whole. SMGs and ARs already have similar perfect TTKs pre-nerf, some ARs even beat some SMGs. Weapons like the vector were more of a niche case and could have been dealt with accordingly.

[analog cloak]

Lack of damage dropoff just doesn’t make sense. It would make the usable range of a gun purely dependant on its recoil. Snipers would be hit hard by this

[eternal bolt]

What about bullet velocity?

Snipers have to lead less with 1000m/s at distance.

[analog cloak]

Snipers don’t tend to be running around in circles while shooting

[eternal bolt]

SMGs generally have 300-450 m/s.

[analog cloak]

As far as my own experience tells me, recoil is far more important than velocity for landing shots in this game. Even with much lower velocities, SMGs would genuinely outrange ARs if their damage didn’t dropoff

[leaden heath]

idk, i think it's more of a matter of SMGs having a higher skill ceiling and being harder to make the most of, as well as some maps just being really bad for them (like multu islands)

you need a lot of map knowledge to know where you can and cannot go, and you also need to use your speed to pick your fights

it's much easier for a new player to camp a window with an AR instead

but also, PP2000 is just kinda straight up bad

[eternal bolt]

This is true. Players are generally not mobile especially when in ADS. However, when shooting at moving targets, the difference between using an AR vs an SMG are night and day. I think removing drop-off all together would make it so that if a player insists on being stationary, they will need to be positioned well because they will no longer be able to rely on the arbitrarily-induced ineffectiveness of enemies' weapons to win fights.

That said, the developers will never go that route. There is also some "realism" with the muzzle velocity loss. However, the current damage drop-off is just criminal, especially when there really isn't much else to compensate for it balance wise. They felt like they were in an intuitive sweet spot before where enemies that can be easily aimed at with the reflex sight usually took the brunt of the damage. If the developers insist on the current damage-drop off profile, I don't want SMG base damage to be buffed such that they automatically win all engagements in CQC. I would rather them get a unique utility, such as the ability to simultaneously sprint and shoot. This would play into their high mobility and set them apart from the other weapon classes in terms of playstyle.

[eternal bolt]

It's a straight travesty is what it is!

[analog cloak]

Honestly, I would have been fine with old SMG balancing, just maybe turning down the strongest ones a bit

[sly epoch]

Still trying wrap my head around how an mp7 has a longer falloff range than a p90

[eternal bolt]

The real question is how a P90 has a shorter falloff range than an mp7.

That thing needs its range buffed.

[weak quartz]

no it doesnt

it's good as it is because before it was another problematic weapon same way as vector was

[vague goblet]

you mean like how the groza has been?

[eternal bolt]

No it's not. It has a lower TTK than a lot of ARs lol.

It doesn't even have a 1.10 run speed.

[unreal cairn]

P90 or?

[eternal bolt]

P90

Well, I can't link complete ttk charts.

[unreal cairn]

do it in offtopic

you can simply link the message afterwards in here

[silver sail]

it should be 225ms on flesh and light armor, that is faster than a bunch of ars

[analog cloak]

Yeah P90 has pretty decent point blank ttk

It beats the mid-level ttk ARs but looses to the ttk-oriented ones

Which I think is fine

[eternal bolt]

What isn't fine is the unnecessary nerf to fall-off damage it got.

[weak quartz]

Considering 50 round mag that reloads in 3 seconds the fall off nerf was needed

[rancid dirge]

something about mp7 seems off lately, ttk got an increase (nerf) ?

[leaden heath]

MP7 hasn't had any changes other than damage fall off starting from 40m instead of 50m (which is nothing)

[unreal cairn]

best guess is more supports & you are hitting their armor (which most seem to use a mix of exo &/or heavy)

[patent dome]

I've had supports tank shots beyond 50m as expected.

[rancid dirge]

Seems it was the short range hitreg bug. This must have affected the mp7 high fire rate. Cus I was mowing down people with UMP45

Will be fixed in next update according to Oki

[analog cloak]

It wouldn't affect different guns differently.