Lean Spam - Feedback

[fallen anchor]

Wondering why you say someone needs to be a P90 medic with very good movement and high KD to enjoy the game. Seems like an unjustified claim?

[vivid oar]

Btw kd means nothing. Kpm maybe.

[abstract eagle]

a 3.0k/d is pretty high aswell as medic + meta guns is pretty self explenatory

[fallen anchor]

The best players are too small a minority for it to make sense to cater the game towards them. Average player should always be first priority

[vivid oar]

What? Where'd i say that

[fallen anchor]

In the message I replied to

[paper briar]

being a sweat is fine, you can be a tryhard and that's cool. what being a sweat entails sucks and sometimes should be curbed

[vivid oar]

My reply was sarcasm

[fallen anchor]

So do you agree with them?

That doesn’t really make sense

[paper briar]

at the end of the day, sweats use the tools they are given like any other player. whining about people who are sweats is pointless, they're playing the same game as you are

blame the game, not the player

[vivid oar]

I don't think a p90 + medic automatically makes someone a "sweat". Thats dumb af

[abstract eagle]

that's why lean spam is gone now

[abstract eagle]

are you trying to not understand me?

[paper briar]

lean spam sucks. simple as

[fallen anchor]

Seems contradictory to the statement that your reply was sarcasm. Don’t think this is worth arguing over though

[vivid oar]

I asked you what you defines as a sweat. You brought up kd which is a useless metric in a game like this and medic 🤣🤣😭

[fallen anchor]

Can someone successfully be a sweat without a fairly good KD? Like you can’t do well in any stat if you can’t win fights

[abstract eagle]

dude you know what a sweaty player is shut up with your bs

[vivid oar]

Yes absolutely. Sit with an m200 and move around to avoid deaths. You get kills and very few deaths vs a medic "sweat" who goes charging in every life

[fallen anchor]

That gives you a high KD

[abstract eagle]

i'd argue most snipers aren't sweats

[fallen anchor]

yes, nobody thinks they are

but that’s just because we don’t really see them so don’t care about them, I think?

[vivid oar]

But then you're a sweat bc you have a 3.0 kd according to @abstract eagle 🤣🤣🤣💀💀

[fallen anchor]

You don’t usually notice super deadly snipers

[fallen anchor]

That was not their only criteria. I think you’re deliberately misrepresenting their point.

[vivid oar]

I notice them

[fallen anchor]

And the criteria were a general description

[paper briar]

a sweat is someone who tries hard. it's a stupid word

[abstract eagle]

dude kd might not matter to define a sweat but it's still very prevelant with all sweats

[paper briar]

just say they're a tryhard, it's that simple

[fallen anchor]

I don’t know how you even try hard or don’t in a game like this. You just do.

[vivid oar]

Yah so @abstract eagle made the initial argument that devs shouldn't listen to players that like to excel in their game because they're "sweats"

[paper briar]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

the game isn't that hard to "tryhard" in anyways, i can get about 50-60 kills casually sniping

[fallen anchor]

The reason isn’t because they’re sweats, that’s tangential. It’s because they don’t represent much of the playerbase.

[vivid oar]

You're too sweaty

[proper cedar]

@vivid oar has earned the Tier I Member role!

[vivid oar]

Oh damn

[abstract eagle]

uhm what? i'm talking about people like ethereal who cry about every "skill mechanic" getting nerfed

[small marsh]

congratulations

[paper briar]

hang this on your mantlepiece

[small marsh]

you are a no life in this discord server

just like the rest of us

[vivid oar]

[fallen anchor]

what a humorous situation!

[abstract eagle]

a boomer getting to that point

[glacial path]

sweat is a dumb as hell word that idiots use to try and talk down to players who are better than they are. I have 4.0 KDR 3 KPM while blasting music and dicking around, I spend less effort dropping 100 kills than most players do trying to go even. It takes less effort the better you get, not more.

[vivid oar]

Boomer?? Shit I'm not that old yet

[paper briar]

i think anyone who says only "skill mechanic" should have to argue against the idea that you should have to solve an algebraic expression before you throw a grenade

[fallen anchor]

That is a fair assertion
The argument did get a bit detracted from the point

[paper briar]

completing an algebraic expression quickly is skillful

[vivid oar]

Too sweaty

Ppl who work hard in life are sweats too.

[abstract eagle]

point is: movement ok, lean spam bs. i thought we were over this already

[vivid oar]

Should just sit around on welfare and be casual

[fallen anchor]

“sweats” have always been a strawman, really. But it is still useful as a word because we all know what it means and how it plays out in the physical world doesn’t really matter

[paper briar]

i think air strafing should be exactly like source games

[vivid oar]

Prob is its too vague

[abstract eagle]

i just worded it badly but my point still stands, listening to "sweats" is not a good idea for balance, that's all, don't listen to the bottom of the barrel but also not to the top 1-5%

top 1-5% is probaly the best way to describe them

[fallen anchor]

tbh most people who are active here are probably top 5%, the bar is low

[small marsh]

Blindly listening to any criticism/feedback/suggestion without taking into consideration on how the game is supposed to be played/designed is just a recipe for disaster

[fallen anchor]

Ethereal members are like 0.1% for sure

[paper briar]

i think the devs should listen to good ideas and ignore bad ideas

[small marsh]

Luckily the devs haven't missed with the recent updates

[abstract eagle]

that's what i'm trying to say here thx

[small marsh]

..yet

and i hope it stays that way

[glacial path]

balancing around the top 1% is exactly what you want to do.. nearly every long term successful pvp game is a result of doing that.

One of the reasons cs:go is such a long lasting franchise is specifically because it balance around the top 1% or better. dota is another example.

You want to design your game to have ease of access and having a skill floor that lets players jump in and have fun, but you want to balance around the top players. Balancing around average players is how you get call of duty balancing, where everyone ran around with shotguns as snipers, snipers as shotguns, and grenade launchers were OP to the point where the game was unplayable in some patches.

The mantra "easy to pickup, hard to master" is what you want to design your game around if you want it to be a long term success.

you can't balance around players who suck at the game, that's how you get unbearably overpowered stuff that makes the game completely and utterly unplayable at higher levels. If it's balanced around high level players, it's also balanced around mid and low tier players by default; but that doesn't go the other way. Balancing around low or mid tier players means some things are absurdly broken in the hands of anyone with a few working brain cells

[paper briar]

balance around the top end, but that doesn't also mean take direct suggestions from the top

[wary swift]

Balancing around the top end is fine as long as it doesn't negatively affect the accessibility of the game

90% of "top players" are SMG medic shitters and I definitely would not want the game balanced around them

[abstract eagle]

ofc easy to pick up but hard to master is important but lean spam, vectoids and so on just isn't accessible

[paper briar]

you do have to balance around them, as in you have to determine if they're enough of a problem to deal with, but i agree that the game would be worse if it catered to them

[small marsh]

Wanted to write something to add upon that, but it's pretty sound and makes some sense.

[wary swift]

Sorry, what I mean is balance with emphasis on their opinion

[vivid oar]

A dev that wants a balanced game is a dev who takes time to play their own game. Most don't

[small marsh]

This will wholly depend on what their feedback is.

[abstract eagle]

exactly i'm just not good at using english

[small marsh]

If they are advocating for more diversity in class and weapon selection, then I'd listen.

[wary swift]

Generally pro gamers will advocate for the advancement of their preferred playstyle

See: shitting and pissing over lean spam nerf

[paper briar]

the devs should not have to ask people that, especially people who have settled completely into the dominant playstyle

[small marsh]

Feedback from all players should be valued and considered, even the less try-hard players. But the devs will have to make choices and filter out suggestions that won't make the game healthy.

[small marsh]

This is, like, the minority of the minorities.

[vivid oar]

I play 1.5-2 hrs max a day. I'd say that's fairly casual. Rest of the time I'm at work irl. Yet i still like the "sweat" features. Weekends is when i get most of my gaming in

[small marsh]

Really good players won't complain about it

[paper briar]

that's also a normative claim about what a "good player" is

[small marsh]

Just good spatial awareness and aim.

That's what mostly matters in FPS games

[lament python]

https://www.reddit.com/r/BattleBitRemastered/comments/161sw7y/no_one_told_me_i_was_playing_against_agent_smith/

[paper briar]

a good player might not need lean spam, but if everyone's lean spamming and it wins that fight that happens 1/100, then why not?

[small marsh]

Lean spamming is degenerate gameplay, if everyone feels the need to use it in order to catch up, then its not good design/mechanic

[paper briar]

it's actually so stupid how quickly you can go from prone to ballerina twirling lol

this isn't even something you can do in most "movement shooters" lol

[small marsh]

A byproduct of giving the players too much control

You can literally start bolting by unproning

[wary swift]

Ok, see shitting and pissing about vector nerf

And we can all agree in retrospect, it was a good and necessary nerf

[paper briar]

i mean you saw it in this channel already, "good players" shitting themselves over the upcoming lean spam nerf

[glacial path]

who was complaining about vector nerf lol it was pretty much universally agreed it needed a nerf, the biggest arguments were over how it should be nerfed because in the past Oki has been extremely hard handed when it comes to nerfing guns

[fallen anchor]

Was that a thing? I argue a lot here but I don’t remember anyone vehemently defending its then-current state.

I was kinda neutral towards it being needed

[glacial path]

as well as arguing against players who made ridiculous claims like they were being beamed down at 150-300m, which was complete non-sense but a complaint that happened all the time

[wary swift]

It was a thing, check the feedback thread logs

[paper briar]

a good deal of the arguments against the vector nerf is just bad faith argument about "now everything is getting nerfed"

[small marsh]

i think it was mostly the same 2 or 3 people

[vivid oar]

The day oki fucks with movement in this game is when it enters a permanent death spiral. I guarantee it

[small marsh]

this is like really loud minorities

[paper briar]

lmao

[wary swift]

Fair

[lament python]

didn't you quit already

[vivid oar]

When did I ever say i was quitting?

[olive iris]

Literally this guy is complaining that movement makes it harder for him to hit the other person and thats why it should be nerfed

Also i feel like this “problem” is way overblown, its so rare that people actually try to move like that

[rocky nymph]

"being able to shoot someone in the head while they can't do that to you isn't an advantage"
Man, the sweats are coping hard. If it didn't give someone an advantage then why care?

No you don't understand, if I can't wiggle during combat the game is 0/10 and I'm going to quit REEEE

[gentle sequoia]

Maybe you don’t understand that headshots are on average worse than going for limb shots and generally center mass (heavy armor is op).

[rocky nymph]

Next level cope

headshots are bad, never go for them

[gentle sequoia]

Maybe read a spreadsheet and then we can discuss.

[rocky nymph]

nevermind the fact that half the players don't even have a helmet at any given time

Maybe play the game?

no, you see, because this spreadsheet has these numbers that means that's how it always going to be in-game

There's theory and there's practice, cope more

[thick summit]

the practice is that even with the larger head hitbox and the damage multiplier it's better to shoot people in the legs because the legs don't have armor

[gentle sequoia]

People can’t think for themselves these days, shame to see.

Bigger problem with this statement is that 50% of players don’t wear helmets, the average player is shooting themselves in the foot if they don’t wear a helmet.

[thick summit]

i've realized lately that i frequently get many armor hit markers in a row because i'm hitting head/chest armor alternating instead of just one or the other

just better to not hit that ever and shoot legs

which, to loop back to the actual topic, means that lean spam does nothing because even if their torso is moving, their legs are pretty static

[gentle sequoia]

I only shoot head if they aren’t moving or an extremely free kill. Otherwise I completely avoid it.

[thick summit]

^ or required due to head angle

[gentle sequoia]

I hate the idea that we’re punished for shooting head, I think that is a much much bigger problem than qe.

[rocky nymph]

But you said it's never a good idea to shoot them in the head, so why do that?

Just always shoot them center mass, it's easier

[thick summit]

"always shoot center mass, even if it's behind a box"

[rocky nymph]

Or are you saying... shooting the head... has some sort of advantage sometimes?...

[thick summit]

that's what you sound like 🙂

[gentle sequoia]

When they are a bot that’s not even moving.

[rocky nymph]

But why? You said a spreadsheet said that's not optimal

so why go out of your way?

if they're not moving it should be even easier to shoot them in the legs or arms

[gentle sequoia]

Spreadsheets say that shooting head is optimal. But there’s a high % chance that you hit helmet and also body armor which does no damage. You have to apply the numbers to what actually happens in game.

Think

[rocky nymph]

[thick summit]

one of those assumes perfect accuracy, the other is reality. if you have trouble differentiating the two, seek help.

because nothing about what was typed is contradictory

[rocky nymph]

stop talking for him, you're not part of this conversation

he's a big boy, he can explain himself

[thick summit]

it's a public thread

i can do whatever i please

[rocky nymph]

Okay, you're free to be stupid as much as you want

and I'm free to tell you to fuck off

[thick summit]

then i believe i'm free to tell you your head is shaped like a halfpipe

[rocky nymph]

Cool, don't care

[gentle sequoia]

Spreadsheet gives numbers that are true in a vacuum.

In reality you hit helmet and body armor when going for headshots. Therefore it’s not worth going for headshots because the armor tanks more bullets than just going for limbs / center mass. Then if you’re aiming for limbs / center mass, if the person qe spams your aim is unaffected.

I don’t waste my time, bye.

[rocky nymph]

It's fine, you've already proven yourself to be a liar or dishonest with your position by admitting there's advantages to shooting the head

cope more Lokisam, I hope you don't cry too much when the patch comes out to nerf lean spamming

[thick summit]

i don't lean spam so it doesn't effect me (:

why would i lean spam when i like the fal/ak15 and just leaning once does everything i need

[rocky nymph]

Oh, so yo'ure just a brown noser, sad

I recommend not having parasocial relationships

[thick summit]

no, i'm just not braindamaged

[glacial path]

we can easily end this convo by posting stats

[rocky nymph]

How do stats prove anything?

[glacial path]

ateryk, you wrong bruh. TTK in legs is more consistent

[rocky nymph]

And you're missing the point

The claim was lean spamming confers NO advantages whatsoever

[glacial path]

Because when the 0.85 KDR comes out we can all laugh and suddenly understand where each others view points come frm.

[rocky nymph]

I won the argument by making him admit there's some advantages to shooting the head, which lean spam makes difficult/impossible

[thick summit]

it really doesn't. the context of optimal play is to shoot legs because legs dont have armor and don't move

[rocky nymph]

The argument wasn't about what's optimal

[glacial path]

you definitely did not win that argument, don't take this the wrong way but you made a complete fucking idiot of yourself

[rocky nymph]

Stop moving the goalposts

No one cares what the peanut gallery wants - I was right by virtue of Oki nerfing lean spam

And I'm doubly right by having him admit making yourself near impossible to headshot confers an advantage

whether optimal play is going for headshots, centermass, or limbs is moot

and is moving the goalposts

You can seethe all you want though, go ahead

[glacial path]

are you sure I'm the one seething right now?

I jsut came in here, saw you make an idiot of yourself, and let you know. Now I'm dipping.

[rocky nymph]

Yeah, you bothered to jump in out of nowhere so something rustled your jimmies

[thick summit]

reality is you shouldn't be shooting at the head because you're going to hit head armor and chest armor alternately because you're not a machine. so even if the target is standing still you're artificially extending the ttk by going for it

that has nothing to do with lean spam and is a limitation of human skill

[gentle sequoia]

Idiots these days

[thick summit]

hence why LEG META exists in the first place

[rocky nymph]

And when there's no helmet?

Because I can definitely pull up videos of people running around with no helmets because armor doesn't restore itself

[gentle sequoia]

If they have no helmet they’re 99% a shitter and you kill them if you aim for their pinky toe.

[thick summit]

who cares? i'm aiming for consistency not for a highlight reel. i'm not scream, my aim isn't that good. i do what is going to work every time. which is always going to be legs.

[rocky nymph]

losing helmet =/= losing armor

[glacial path]

I run w/o helmet 🙂

[thick summit]

i finally switched to running no helmet, the ads speed is beeg

[glacial path]

I'd rather have the ADS speed

[rocky nymph]

Y'all couldn't be more dishonest in your position. Literally just strawmanning and goalpost moving

[thick summit]

i regret being 200 hours in before switching

[gentle sequoia]

F

[thick summit]

you're so inflexible to understanding reality that you're digging your feet in to be "correct"

[rocky nymph]

see you losers later, enjoy the lean spam nerf

Learn to argue next time as well and not resort to argumentive fallacies

[thick summit]

learn to have a real position based in reality

[glacial path]

You've been doing that for the last 10 mins straight bruh

[thick summit]

instead of being a jackass (:

and maybe i'd treat you less like one

kafka 2.0 out here

[glacial path]

ok he's a dumbass but that's just taking it too far

[thick summit]

you right. my bad

his head still shaped like a half pipe tho

[olive iris]

Yo walk! Do you always shoot at the legs no matter what? I understand that this is good in theory, but it seems so counter intuitive compared to any other shooter.
Ive always trained myself to shoot at the head. But i do notice that i usually destroy a players armor before i kill them.

I dont disbelieve you, but im wondering how realistic it is in practice to always shoot at the legs. I practice crosshair placement a lot and keeping your crosshair at eye level kind of makes it easier to stay aware of your surroundings as well

I always try to dropshot and shoot at the legs with support players thi

[surreal bramble]

i feel like the people going "just shoot at the body! you're not supposed to go for the head!" don't understand how counter intuitive that is, especially when almost every single first person shooter ever incentivizes and encourages you to go for headshots if you're good enough
even if that's the case (and it certainly is with lean spamming dipshits that pretend they're good at the game), it really shouldn't be? the head is a much smaller hitbox that SHOULD be more rewarding to get hits on

[fallen anchor]

It is more rewarding

The entire reason many don’t do it is because it’s harder

[glacial path]

I always aim at the head, but I do this consciously knowing it's not the best way to play. But I'm also not playing battlebit in a serious or sweaty way, I play it for fun and part of that is focusing on headshots to help work on my aim.

If you threw me into a tournament with a cash prize I would aim at the legs, especially against support players or if I knew some opponents were running assault with heavy armor.

[vivid oar]

A lot of ppl also don't wear head armor so it's not a bad idea to go for it regardless

[lament python]

you guys need to understand the uproar of autistic screeching is largely people arguing in bad faith
if it really isn't a big deal, post-nerf there will be little to no difference, because it wasn't a big deal

if their arguement is true and this barely affects anything, they wouldn't be crying about the change

[thick summit]

i mean, i lean once maybe twice in a fight, the change doesn't effect me. it's a do nothing change to appease people who don't understand why they're dying when the dev time could be spent on better things

attacking people for arguing against changing something, before a change is made, is kind of stupid. the change is made, it's not going to change anything in reality, but there is now a change being made

[paper briar]

how do you know how much dev time it took?

maybe this was easy for them to do

[thick summit]

did i say how much time it took? no. i said it took them time they could be working on other things. like idk, some new maps? attachment update (since 90% of attachments might as well not exist)? weapon tuning, class tuning, etc etc etc need i go on?

[paper briar]

i dunno, it could've been really easy to do

could've just been a few lines of code

[thick summit]

that's not the point i'm making. when there are actual issues with the game that exist to be fixed. i'd rather those be the focus and not shit that i've seen ONE person do in 200 hours of gameplay (and he lost the gunfight because it turns out actual lean spam is pretty ineffective)

i suppose the bigger question at this point is what did he actually do to "fix" lean spam since it's been nerfed. is it a stamina system? or is leaning just going to be slower in general?

am i going to have to lean, before, the fight? can i lean during a gunfight? can i lean a second time during a gun fight if it gives me a better angle?

what is lean "spam" as the devs take it? is that 2 leans? 3? 4?

"leaning spam has been nerfed" doesn't tell me what he did

[silent rain]

I think that the leaning from one end to the other looks a lot less fast now. Excited to see how things develop from here.
Thank you for the update!

[olive iris]

Is it implemented yet?

[nimble briar]

Next update, it sounds like

[surreal bramble]

mad

[lament python]

if its blueprint based its 2 or 3 nodes to add a cooldown to an ability system key

so maybe 15 minutes, then an hour or testing or so to be relatively sure you didn't just break the world

most coding isn't coding, its "sposing" how the best way to accomplish the idea is, then redoing it a couple times usually

[paper briar]

I'm aware

I think saying "there's other things to fix" is just a deflection from their actual opinion which is that they shouldn't remove lean spamming at all

[lament python]

like here:

or this travesty i came up with first, lol

[lament python]

they're all arguing in bad faith they just do it in different ways XD

[paper briar]

I'm aware of how coding works, I'm almost done with my bachelor's

Yeah I know lol

[thick summit]

yeah dude it's just "bad faith". just like you guys calling "lean spam" when it doesn't actually happen. or like the people freaking out over how broken the vector was at "150m laser" etc etc

[lament python]

ive been iterating and re-iterating a grid system to make big, big spaceships with XD
next step is figuring out how to do like a dynamic hash or something so I dont have to store every single grid tile individually

[lament python]

https://tenor.com/view/perception-is-reality-perception-explaining-awareness-senses-gif-13278980

[thick summit]

perception of my 200 hours of gameplay and watching streamers play is that nobody is actually doing anything "spam" with lean

[lament python]

ok

dont worry, soon the population will stabilize like you keep saying and all the complainers will have left, amirite

[thick summit]

so what does "fixing lean spam" actually fix?

[lament python]

average player frustration when they run into it

[paper briar]

What lean spamming does is makes you marginally harder to hit, and while it's marginal it's also free if you just double bind A and D, so it's a intersection of incredibly easy to do and low reward, so it becomes a "why wouldn't you do it?"

Does it help? Maybe once in a hundred fights, but it doesn't hurt either

[thick summit]

because it doesn't make you harder to hit? we're in legs meta right now for a reason and that's because shooting high can regularly result in you hitting head and chest armor alternately

[paper briar]

What if I'm using waist high cover, or the other player is using a sniper?

[delicate gyro]

going specifically for limbs in a fps game is god damn weird

[lament python]

I guess there's no problem so its just a quality of life change
you like qualify of life right?

[thick summit]

waist high cover then you aim at the stomach instead of legs or, better idea. instead of approaching an entrenched position head on, you flank it?

[thick summit]

it is but until armor gets reworked or removed it's going to remain this way

regardless of a fix to lean spam

[paper briar]

Simply flank lol

[thick summit]

yes. flank

[paper briar]

How do you know I'm not?

[thick summit]

i already answered the rest of your argument with "shoot them in the stomach" since that ALSO doesn't move when leaning

so i'm not sure what else you want me to say here

[paper briar]

What if they're using a sniper?

[thick summit]

then they're likely outside of my engagement range? even if they're within 200m i'm not challenging that. i got better shit to do. though just saying "they have a sniper" doesn't cover enough of the situation to give you a real answer

are they within 30m? i can probably force a missed shot and kill them regardless of their positioning. 100+ with cover? prolly not worth the risk unless i know they're worse than me

[lament python]

dont you think everyone is worse than you though

[thick summit]

no? godforge, i'm gettin old. maybe 15 years ago i was better than a vast majority of players. when people were still figuring out all the ways you could hold a controller to play call of duty. now? fuck nah. i gotta take what i can get to be above average and barely at that

i got that arthritis now too lol. all the spam shit is a quick way for me to have to ice my hands before bed

that doesn't stop me from ego-challenging in game sometimes just to see if i can get away with something stupid even though i'm definitely not mechanically capable anymore

[paper briar]

Ok, I have a sniper, they have a sniper, we see each other at the exact same time. It's an SvS duel, right? If I lean spam but they don't, they're at a distinct disadvantage, are they not?

[thick summit]

i mean, that just depends on the player. because you commiting to lean spam, to me, would mean i take the free body shot into->dodge spam into second body shot.

maybe someone who actually snipes wants to weigh in on that because i don't like how they feel personally to know how feasible that even is lol

[paper delta]

Lean spam is annoying af as a sniper

[thick summit]

maybe i just insta die to a headshot? but even then that's not mentioning that i could lean once to try and force a missed shot and then i'd be ahead anyway

[paper delta]

It forces you to settle for a body shot on somebody who positions themselves like a total idiot

Then they can get behind cover and heal back up to do the same shit

Unless my teammates also shoot the guy with me I'm probably not killing them

[thick summit]

yeah but if you force cover in SvS you can probably isolate an angle and force them to walk into your crosshair

that's like, a lot of factors though

[paper delta]

It also sucks for hand cannons since outside of one tap headshots the likelihood of you making it out alive when going for bodyshots is low

[thick summit]

i'm also the worst sniper because sometimes i forget that i'm supposed to be paying attention

[paper delta]

It's not just sniper v sniper though

[thick summit]

yeah but he specifically mentioned SvS

[paper delta]

yeah but I didn't

[thick summit]

which is what i'm trying to answer through the lens of

[paper delta]

I'm just sharing my experience as a sniper player

I don't see a lot of lean spam in sniper v sniper battles

[thick summit]

oh yeah. sniping vs medic movement is probably aids. i don't wanna deal with that

ofc i get my head taken off all the time -_-

[paper delta]

The problem is "shoot at the legs" is just a dumb suggestion

It's quite easy to get your legs behind cover when peeking a chokehold

[thick summit]

unfortunately it's the best solution up close because again, and this is something i constantly deal with even aiming at chest, you can easily get hits onto head armor and "waste" bullets hitting armor

[paper delta]

Sure if you run into each other shooting at their legs is possible

but that ignores a lot of other situations and precision weapons

just get rid of the fucking thing, literally no game community enjoys lean spam

[thick summit]

it's being "fixed" how idk, which is what i'm worried about. is leaning about to be as clunky as jumping?

[paper delta]

reading oki's patch notes is the leading cause of brain damage in this community

[thick summit]

facts lol

it'd be great if leaning was still a viable tool for gunfights which is what i'm hoping for, because then nothing changes for me

but if leaning is kill in 90% of the situations i'd use it for i'm gonna be very sadge

[paper briar]

I do so I'll weigh in
In any given SvS, you can't really strafe because it makes your reticle unreliable (your bullet comes out the center of your screen, not where your reticle is pointed, so it's not good unless you're using a monitor crosshair), you can only get one shot off before you bolt. The best you can hope for here is shooting the enemy's head off first, because going for a bodyshot means he lives

Lean spamming is more advantageous to the user because the angle they have to correct for is less than the angle the enemy corrects for. Triangles and shit

[thick summit]

yeah but the situation you're discussing sounds like there's no cover. who cares if he lives if he misses?

obviously you can't force a miss every time, but mind games is big part of 1v1's

[paper briar]

It makes winning harder, and makes not losing more likely

If you could shoot someone in the face, but because they spammed Q and E, you don't win, that would be annoying

[thick summit]

you could also just go prone

or crouch

[paper briar]

And there are tradeoffs to those in terms of mobility and it affects your reticule way more than leaning

You forfeit the SvS essentially

[thick summit]

this discussion is exactly why i'm worried about nerfs to lean. it's one less tool to mind game an opponent

because i could lean once, or twice, or i could prone, or i could crouch, or lean and crouch

or i could go for strafes

[paper briar]

Ok, there's a difference between all of those and lean spamming

[thick summit]

and if center screen is all that matters then stop relying on your reticle. you can train out of needing that

so i don't get that argument really either

[paper briar]

When you strafe, crouch, prone, or just sprint off, then you essentially forfeit the fight. You can't snipe and he can't snipe

When you lean spam, you're still in the fight but it's disproportionately harder for the enemy now

[thick summit]

yes exactly. i'm worried about lean in general getting gutted in the crossfire because people madge

i mean if he can't hit me that's not a forfeit. especially again since he HAS to hit my head to guarantee a win, where i can take 2 bodies infinitely easier with any combination of movement and win

[paper briar]

If you can't hit him and he can't hit you, then I think it's fair to say it's a stalemate, no?

[thick summit]

temporary stalemates happen all the time. like when a medic gets hit and uses movement to stall for bandage+heal into a reset

that doesn't mean the fight is over or lost

[paper briar]

Unless he has the world's biggest ego, he probably understand that he's not gonna hit a sniper that's spinning around at like 200-300 meters and he'll fuck off somewhere else, especially if he knows the other sniper can just hit you in the body twice

[paper briar]

And tbh I think this is actually a bug, your reticule can be completely off and you can hit a clean headshot by following the center of the screen so IMO we shouldn't consider it.

[thick summit]

i mean, we used to put tape with a sharpie mark on it on our screens back in mw2 because the snipers didn't have a crosshair

[paper briar]

#1138743146541486130 message

This is what I mean

[thick summit]

yeah i saw those, i know what you're talking about

[distant surge]

https://youtu.be/wu2Dd9VFfg4

[thick summit]

it's the same thing. you put a mark on your screen externally until you get used to where the center is without it.

looks like stamina system?

nothing changes for me then

[distant surge]

[paper briar]

bro why cant he just stand still and show it instead of running around and strafe and shit

[thick summit]

unless the stamina doesn't reset until you unlean, then i lose the 2nd lean option which is cringeeeee

[distant surge]

Great change

[paper briar]

jokerfied because of a single nerf lmao

[distant surge]

Worse changes have happened

[abstract eagle]

the game is ea it'll change

[thick summit]

yeah like putting aim punch in the game

[paper briar]

i dunno i just feel like it's really dumb that your bullets dont go where your crosshair go when you're using a reflex sight that's specifically supposed to do that with like, lasers and shit, but that's outside of the scope of this

if the type of SvS you're having is that you see each other at the same time and you get one shot off before you bolt out of sight, then lean spamming means the opponent wins less often, and i think that sucks

[nimble briar]

Welp, hopefully this thread never needs to get used agian.

[willow dragon]

the lack of specificity in regards to the "nerf" makes me very wary. the extreme conspiracy theory part of my brain is screaming "intentional placebo effect attempt", even if I rationally know thats probably not the case. Time will tell

[willow dragon]

https://www.reddit.com/r/BattleBitRemastered/comments/163z9d3/how_leaning_spamming_looks_after_the_lean_spam/?share_id=5twQvEZSteeoxUup92VoO&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1

(i really should not be having to provide this in the stead of the dev team, imo)

[small marsh]

the dev team did on the devstream

although, they didnt share the clip of it

[willow dragon]

i would imagine that not everyone watches the dev streams. i surely dont, just isnt my kind of media consumption

[wary swift]

Ok so it's literally just slower overall, I'm ok with that

[willow dragon]

some of the people who were saying to just remove leaning absolutely got me. the fuck kind of solution would that be lol

[thick summit]

Someone is still mad about the vector

[thick summit]

I can’t lie, I’ve put another thousand kills on the vector because every game someone still cries when they die to it.

[willow dragon]

ive put probably 30 total on it, but i will be definitely putting more on it once i unlock it again. came up with a real weird build for it in the test range that I wanna try lol

[raven edge]

So its just a bit slower but the accuracy remains the same? Thats barely a nerf

[abstract eagle]

it works out from what i can tell, only some use lean mid fight but it's no where near as atrocious as it was previously now leaning mid fight actually requires some skill and knowledge, experience whatever you wanna call it

[vivid oar]

Ppl still going to whine about it. Just like they're crying about air strafe.

[junior parrot]

Lean spam should be re-implemented only when being healed, now you cant show your appreciation to medics without using vc/looking stupid

And I seriously doubt anyones going into a fight with a medic trailing them just to lean spam

[abstract eagle]

just sneak spam, universal sign of peace in mc or smth

[wary swift]

Lean spam fixed in the best possible way, close thread?

Issue resolved?

[glacial path]

probably would be very beneficial to re-open thread so feedback can be received on current state on lean spam; it didn't feel very good to me at all

[abstract eagle]

why? you can still lean but no longer spam, isn't that how it should be?

[thick summit]

hopping on to test rq

[wary swift]

Lean spam not feeling very good was the intended outcome, right?

[thick summit]

leaning feels same to me for how i play

literally unaffected pog

[glacial path]

I never really spammed it at all, but it still aggressively applies occasionally out of nowhere.

I notice it most when sniping, I'll lean repeatedly as I slice corners and the change affects me doing that more than anything(which is the intended use of lean)

[thick summit]

random off topic question does anyone know if long barrel affects acr damage break points?

[wary swift]

I mean, it applies if you lean 3+ times in quick succession

[glacial path]

It feels as if "unleaning" using toggle lean counts as a lean

so If I lean and unlean, the next lean is sometimes very slow even though I'm not spamming it in anyway

[wary swift]

It might if it's detecting on input, yea

[abstract eagle]

ye, light armor

[wary swift]

So input for lean, input for unlean

[thick summit]

dope ty

[wary swift]

Whereas hold is input for lean, no input for unlean

[abstract eagle]

kinda bs if you think about it, 9mm smgs with a shorter barrel do more damage and are better against armor

no problem with the leaning whatsoever, i like the implementation

[thick summit]

it doesn't prevent 2 quick leans so nothing changed for ya boi.

actually 3?

or i'm just not spamming hard enough so it's resetting

kekw

[glacial path]

The initial lean also feels slower than it used too, so it's slower and then you slow down even more with consecutive leans, even in non-spamming situations. Overall it's too aggressive of a nerf that affects leaning even outside of lean spamming.

Like I said for me it's most noticeable when I snipe, which obviously doesn't utilize lean spamming. I don't particularly notice it all that much when I'm using regular full auto guns in fights; it's always when I'm using it to corner slice trying to gather info. Basically all it affected was when I was using it "as intended"

I guess players who binded it to a+d were also affected but they were trolling anyway

[abstract eagle]

those people should be affected by the nerf, that was the whole point buddy

[glacial path]

yea idc they were

[wary swift]

I'd agree, it feels about 40% slower and again on the unlean, which I'm not completely against

[abstract eagle]

it feels better in every way imo

[wary swift]

Watching a sniper rapid-peek from behind a rock was stupid, since peeking doesn't affect accuracy

[glacial path]

honestly maybe it's the unlean that is getting me more than anything. It might feel better if you un-lean at the regular pace all the time, and only the leaning portion is slower. I also think the slowest leaning can still be sped up a bit; it should be punishing but not make leaning completely unusable.

since the default speed was already nerfed ~40%, reducing it even more feels overkill. It feels more like I'm losing control of my character, especially using toggle instead of hold

[wary swift]

I feel that

[abstract eagle]

i'm using toggle but have no problems with the nerf idk how you're playing but it seems kinda cursed

[willow dragon]

yeah if you arent spamming it, leaning feels unchanged

[surreal bramble]

you just have to time it now instead of mashing Q and E. it's still extremely strong

if you keep pressing the lean keys in a rhythm your head hitbox is still essentially invincible. so i don't think the change really addressed the core issue

[thick summit]

looks good to me

[wise seal]

I think you're onto something on the unlean front. Instinctively it feels like that pull back to vertical / normal posture / behind cover would still be faster, at the cost of subsequent leaning. The initial lean is like putting tension into a spring as you move into position, the un-lean is the snappy release of that tension as you spring back, but then a further lean would have to deal with the damping from that release.

[vale vigil]

I think the nerving is too much this time, why can't we only weaken the range of lean span and weaken its speed?

My speed reduction makes the feel very bad, and makes lean spanning often miss good peak opportunities

i think the main point of this nerving is people use it too much and the hitbox always missing when u doing it

or I think we can only make the player incoherent when switching between left and right lean spans, so that the player can only use one sided lean span at a certain time. Does this sound reasonable?

[thick summit]

i think lean is fine as it is now.

[nimble briar]

As someone who never lean spammed, this nerf has not affected my gameplay in the slightest. It's not any slower if you're using it normally. Honestly, perfect nerf.

[thick summit]

facts

[wooden phoenix]

guy in the video didnt just lean he moved out of your crosshair

you literally hit him he just moved out of the way

if that guy lean spam instead of moving you wont be able to shoot him standing in one spot

[fallen anchor]

You can very clearly see him leaning

[wooden phoenix]

again

[fallen anchor]

Leaning and strafing are not mutually exclusive

[wooden phoenix]

didnt just lean he moved away from the cross hair

[fallen anchor]

That doesn’t mean he didn’t lean

[wooden phoenix]

some people just lean spam and dont even move out of the place

and you wont even hit them

like you can see him move out like far away from the crosshair via the image

and people do this it feels much better than actual lean spamming

lean spamming + crouching unga bunga

[abstract eagle]

rythmically leaning still exists apperantly

[abstract eagle]

so it's problematic that we removed this exploit because you can't sneak spam or use vc to thank a mate?
but srsly this was needed
you can just sneak like in minecraft or yk just speak,
we have a vc for a reason

[fallen anchor]

Yeah you can, just not as fast

[misty plover]

Why limit someone's capabilities. Lean Spamming should be allowed in the game, it doesn't even work as an over power advantage.

[nimble briar]

My guy, it's a roblox semi-milsim. I still feel like it's pretty original

[vale vigil]

they want battlefield ，not bad business

[viscid ether]

So how they nerf it, just hard capped it or?

[nimble briar]

Repeatedly leaning in opposite diractions puts a limit on how far you can lean, until you basically aren't leaning at all

[viscid ether]

Ah

Kinda surprised they didn't just add a animation to slow it down (So it isn't a instant change pretty much)

[thick summit]

it's timing based

if you lean on the right timing it doesn't do anything

you just can't spam now

[wary swift]

Apologise for your bad opinions too

[lavish kraken]

just lean slower? i still do it all the time at the beginning of the match. also shaking your head up and down to thank a medic works also XD

[lament python]

well, bye

[raven edge]

Just nod at your medic to thank them, most of them will still get it

[ivory hornet]

Broken. all im going to say.

[solemn quiver]

Agreed. The current changes aren't enough; The scoliosis meter and spine snapping really need to be implemented.

[thick summit]

it's not even spam at this point, the spam was nerfed

there's nothing wrong with leaning

[abstract eagle]

it's actually tactical now, leaning in a gun fight because won't help you, in cqc it might just allow you to do some aim and hitbox shenanigans

[barren sundial]

nah, it's still really useful, and i still do it all the time

it's especially annoying for recon players, since your head hitbox is basically invulnerable

i don't like it but it's the optimal thing to do, so i'll keep doing it

[abstract eagle]

it's not super broken tho anymore

my way to deal with recons
run away

[raven edge]

Add nausea if you spin around or lean too fast

[wary swift]

I haven't noticed any lean spam since the change, it's vanished completely

[nimble briar]

I've seen it twice, and both times the dude got absolutely destroyed

[wooden phoenix]

How fast was the lean spam? Or was it just leaning?

[round oracle]

Pretty much as fast as you pressed the keys.

[nimble briar]

Like, the person was attempting to spam, but it didn't really work for them and I dropped them like a sack of potatoes

[simple shadow]

I still see it from the ultra meta abusers because the UMP can kill before the slow lean kicks in

[abstract eagle]

(ump doing 35dmg is still stupid)

[lavish kraken]

is less lean spam and just holding the lean button

i think the lean animations could look nicer especially the one that happens when prone it looks goofy and makes the hot boxes kinda goffy to get head shots

[wary swift]

You mean, using the mechanic as intended....? The bastards!

[lavish kraken]

bru what XD

Leaning wasn't made to make your hit box jank and look awful when prone. It was made so you can peak around corners and out of cover to reduce the amount of you poking out of cover.

[latent sleet]

tbh from my time playing this game, I don't really see a reason for leaning to exist, other than for the fun of it and "muh realistic immersion"

with how fast paced the game is, a feature for you to hunker down behind cover kinda clashes with the rest of the game

not to mention the hitbox jank

[random forge]

honestly as aids as lean spamming is, its pretty much the only skill gap in the game, with armour in game making fighting more then 2 people hard enough the leaning spam gives you somewhat of an opportunity to out gun the other person. if lean spamming was to be tuned down i think there should be a topic created on introducing another mechanic to the game such as sliding.

[abstract eagle]

air spinning, aim, other movement xD

[lethal cape]

remember corner peaking / headglitching also has to be in check

cus another game i play used to have full on invisible pixel peaks w leaning and that got super nerfed

[random forge]

there no movement in the game other then air strafing bro "xd" consdering you called it air spinning tells me enough "xd" 😉

bro said aim

LMFAO

[abstract eagle]

hey say skill issue if you wanna, fyi i'm the guy who does the spinning
and "no movement" is pretty funny man

[lethal cape]

positioning and gamesense lol

not really a movement shooter

[lavish kraken]

nooo clearly any skill that uses actually brain power isn't actually a skill

while the ones that can be easily done by just changing key binds some is

or randomly flinking your wrist

[random forge]

promise i'd slame you in any game of your choice borther lol.

[barren sundial]

how about you "slame" someone in a spelling bee first

[abstract eagle]

even in minecraft "no hit delay"?

[random forge]

you might have me in minecraft

[abstract eagle]

how fast do you click?

[random forge]

would slame you in that to bro

[abstract eagle]

*too not to

[random forge]

send pic of your stats

[abstract eagle]

not to mention the level of argumentative skills displayed by you are certainly something
and outright denying you can outskill people with other things than leanspam is just false, if you need that oh so skillfull mechanic to stomp on casuals you might suffer from something known as "skill issue" by most professionals in the field, others might call it "skill diff(erence)"

truly a gamer moment

dw i won't post stats for you personally, search 'em up yourself or go wash off that clown makeup of yours, you decide

[abstract eagle]

https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/408071248426434560 could help

[random forge]

unlucky that you're the one getting stomped on. if you think im here to flex that im good at a roblox fps game you're the clown. clearly you've never heard of a skill gap if you think battlebit remotely has one. my suggestion was purely for players that have fingers, clearly not directed towards you 🙂

[abstract eagle]

talking without saying anything and falling for obvious trolling, truly we live in a society

[random forge]

you're an npc bro

[abstract eagle]

haven't heard that one in a while

[paper delta]

bruh

[abstract eagle]

keep 'em coming

at the end of the day
why?

it's in the game and the devs surely won't revert it for some random goober

hope you had some fun tho, i had mine

[random forge]

what are you refering to?

[abstract eagle]

reverting the lean spam change 🤷

[random forge]

im still lean spamming away so

[abstract eagle]

same

it's just no longer a wiggle through time and space kind of deal

[random forge]

this game would be 10x better with no armour

[abstract eagle]

sliding might be cool but seeing how """inertia""" (no air control at all lmao) was implemented for community servers i'm a little scared of the devs version of it

[lavish kraken]

ya that's to heavy on inertia was kinda hoping it would work the same way the lean spam works now where you can do it but if you do it to much it does stops working

[hollow forge]

the lean spam slow down is not good enough
it takes forever to kick in enough to be effective and most head on engagements last no more than a second
it needs to throw off accuracy

also if you time your leans it doesnt kick in at all

[abstract eagle]

you can't lean spam anymore

[fallen anchor]

You can lean with unrealistic ease, flexibility and balance

But I wouldn’t call what you can do right now spam.

[hollow forge]

It’s not exactly spam but it can still be cheesed
It needs to be gone entirely
Lean spam has got to be some of the lamest shit to come out of fps games ever

[abstract eagle]

have you played the game before the nerf
you'd know that what we have now is super easy to counter, just lean with them, strafe a bit or just aim with their bodys movement, not like that no longer whips from side to side six times a second

[barren sundial]

it's not nearly as bad but it's still very abusable. i do it all the time to throw off people and make my head hitbox near unhittable

[thick summit]

i keep seeing this complaint about "making the head harder to hit". please stop. headshots have not been the correct way to play this game for 6 months now. please please please learn how this game works. stop shooting at armor. the engagement is over before your headshot matters. shoot their legs that cannot be manipulated. unless there is an armor rework this will likely not change. please stop complaining about not being able to hit headshots when it is literally worse than just shooting the legs

i am fucking begging you people

this shit is what oki reads and focuses on and tries to adjust, instead of the massively fucked gameplay and total lack of incoming content to the game. we have fucking legal wallhacks in game right now. lean is irrelevant. it was irrelevant when you could bind it to your strafe keys.

[abstract eagle]

legs get adjusted everytime you strafe or just move lol

[thick summit]

not enough that it isn't infinitely more predictable than someone elses timing for their leans

[hollow forge]

or he could just add a cooldown on leaning
shouldnt be in the game at all anyway

[fallen anchor]

why?

[abstract eagle]

there already is a cooldown and a slowdown after doing it repeatedly
and it's an integral part of the game
believe it or not, this isn't meant to be roblox battlefield, this game is supposed to be in between squad and battlefield with graphics that allow for very low hardware requirements + faster dev time

[hollow forge]

the slowdown can be avoided entirely
like i said it shouldnt be in at all
i dont know what roblox has got to do with it

[abstract eagle]

looks like roblox is what people are usually ripping on
but no, it is and always should be an integral part of the game, the leaning that is

[hollow forge]

Leaning in of itself is fine
but the moving from side to side repeatedly in head to head engagements is super cheesy

[abstract eagle]

not anymore lol

easy to counter

[barren sundial]

geez idk maybe not being able to discolate your head hitbox would result in aiming for the head being viable?

[barren sundial]

it's "easy to counter" in the same way that it used to be before the nerf. you just don't aim for the head

it's really counter intuitive that aiming for the head is actively playing the game wrong, when in most games it's what you're incentivized, encouraged, and taught to do

[thick summit]

aiming at head isnt viable because the people it'd be most relevant against are supports who have exo helmet...

everyone else you can pretty reasonably just shoot center mass and it won't matter.

[fallen anchor]

That’s the people to which it’s least relevant

If you could reliably hit heads it is way better than center mass

[crude acorn]

Wonder if this logic is why people think I'm cheating when I sink AK74 rounds into their temple

You hurt yourself with a lot of guns to NOT go for heads

[thick summit]

I mean if someone wants to stand still and try to catch your bullets with their mouth, sure shoot them in the head

But anyone decent is going to be using some kind of movement, or if they’re a support you’re not beating the armor check unless they’re absolute dogshit. Shooting legs is the most consistent play