M249 - Feedback

[pearl acorn]

Put your feedback on the M249.

Please keep it on topic, and civil, we want serious feedback

• No gifs
• No 'skill issue'
• No video's - (Testing video's in the Polygon are fine)

[south path]

the bipod is absolutely useless and does nothing for recoil controll when using medium scopes (More of a LMG problem then a m249 problem)

[tawdry iris]

this and the ultimax are both nice weapons, but the handling is so abysmal even with double normal armor big backpack support that it does not feel practical for gunfights. Obviously they're big, heavy machine guns, but that 0.5 ads speed and 0.5 runspeed jump from lsws to this is too much for me

[tawdry iris]

anyways add shortmag options so I can run this like an LSW I want to do a lil trolling

[formal wave]

Bipod needs touched up to say the least but to topic of the gun itself

M249 effectively acts like a bigger & bulky M4A1 with a larger magazine, Kinda hope the LMGs & LCWs gets some suppression

[vernal walrus]

If we are going to have more recoil to LMGs, it needs some better accuracy. Most of the time it's rolling a dice even when I get a flank on people on distances that is about 50-100m.

Also where is the Support Feedback?

[tawdry iris]

unironically mod is taking a break after making the last ffew gun ones

[vernal walrus]

rip

Honestly I don't mind the speed and ADS time, but shooting at full auto is so bad and tapping isn't much better.

A lot of my encounters involve rolling dices and consulting fortune tellers with how bad the "bloom" can get.

[formal wave]

a idea I feel could work from say BF1 is give the LMGs reverse bloom (So fire longer,the acc will become 100% straight line over time)

[native coral]

That'd be interesting.
I do think it needs better accuracy alittle for medium-long range, but not too much
Ofc a bipod buff would be nice too. (Though that goes for most of the weapons you can use it on)

[plucky jetty]

i use them like a fat smg and hipfire them. the ads speed is crippling for trying to use it while on the move but the large mag size means you can effectively hip fire while turning corners.

the big issue is it feels like a monstly defensive weapon because of how slow it will make you and the slow ads speed which is fine but gets into one of my bigger complaints about how the game is balanced and favors attacking over defending most of the time

[formal wave]

will make a mention that you actually ADS faster from a sprint than a walk or such

it is a bit odd but it feels like a pretty good sized increase

[plucky jetty]

reverse bloom combined with the recoil scale decreasing as you fire could really make this weapon shine i think... but it depends on how fast it happens and whether there is any forgiveness with you letting of the trigger for a moment or if you need to just keep firing for you to maintain the benefits or what...

honestly, the fact that there are very few rewards for defending points is the big deal against a lot of weapons. why use a gun that slows you down a lot and requires set up when 90% of fights are going to be you sprinting and zerging to the next point. this applies to every weapon that severly impacts your move speed, has slow ads speed, has cripplingly long reloads (though this is less of an issue), or some combination of those factors

[tawdry iris]

So question, do you think the solution here is to make defending easier or to make the gun feel faster/more in line with it's AR counterparts

[vernal walrus]

Depends on what they are going to do to the terrain/environment/buildings in the future

[tawdry iris]

Ones obviously more arcadey than the other, but both are viable directions

[vernal walrus]

If they continue with full destruction then they need to make the buildables less breakable

[tawdry iris]

Assume current game design

[vernal walrus]

Needs to be more snappy or more accurate

[plucky jetty]

i think defending needs more rewards and more incentive to do. as it is, you only get points for defending points by being BAD at doing it. you can be on a point and mow down dozens of enemies running towards it but you only get squad points to help you fortify a spot when those people are actually on the point when they die

[tawdry iris]

Bc that isn't prone to change anytime soon

[plucky jetty]

the m249 excels wonderfully in a defensive role but the problem is if you try and use it like that it usually ends up with you trying to 1v20 because the rest of your team zerged to the next point and didnt bother to fully clear the buildings on the point you are trying to defend which means you are liable to end up getting shot in your back randomly by a squad that popped out the ass of some dude hiding in a bush or closet

[vernal walrus]

Most of the time, I die from being shot from behind cause you are now solo on defense

If I join the zerg, I cannot ADS or even run to the next point with the LMG

[plucky jetty]

which is exactly the problem. attacking is too easy and defending is too hard. it makes weapons like the m249 have too narrow of a niche

[vernal walrus]

All the LMGs suffer from the same problem high recoil, low accuracy, bad ADS, bad run speed.

[plucky jetty]

maybe you think "ok, instead of sitting on the point to defend i will try and set up a killzone to mow people down in when they move from that neighboring point to this one" and then that sort of preperation is moot anyways because 2-3 squads pop out from the direction of your own spawn because a heli dropped some random goobers there

squad spawning HEAVILLY favors attacking in games that have it

[vernal walrus]

With how the game is support lacks a lot of support whether it's offensive or defensive. The M249 is "better" but only due to lack of choices.

[plucky jetty]

like, i feel rather strongly that the m249 is a fine weapon. its just that the niche it resides in is poorly supported by the game

[vernal walrus]

Bipod fix when?

[plucky jetty]

never

[tawdry iris]

This week if I can sell it

[vernal walrus]

I want my Support Feedback thread

[tawdry iris]

I'm planning to sell Oki on a host of balance changes for support

Namely to make the class faster

That includes a bipod that doesn't do anything negative just neutral

[plucky jetty]

personally, im fine with the class being slower. the problem is the rest of the game just does nothing to support you for it

[tawdry iris]

And unfortunately it won't

The current direction is for this circular map flow

Game is designed around it

[vernal walrus]

Squad points accumulation based on objectives but objective is always attack

Cannot build cause no points

If you defend you get almost no point

[tawdry iris]

You can actually get squad points from kills on defensive objectives, squad leader has to mark for defence tho

[plucky jetty]

doesnt feel like it, i feel like it is just two zergs circling each other eating up the slower players left behind. outside of the first few weeks i havent seen some actual large fights from huge groups of players clashing, instead the game has devolved slowly into being more and more random squads popping out of bushes at the back of the map as the two zergs chase in circles attacking empty points

[plucky jetty]

no, you dont understand. you need to be BAD at defending for this to happen. you only get those points if the enemy is on the point itself. if i kill them before they get there i get no points

[tawdry iris]

I'll bring it up w/Oki bc I agree squad points aren't in a good state

[plucky jetty]

if a larger circle was added around points where kills in that zone counted as attacking/defending without needing to actually be in the capture zone itself it would help a lot

[tawdry iris]

This manifesto gets longer and longer

[plucky jetty]

something like a "capture zone" and a "threatened zone"

so if you kill enemies in the threatened zone, which is larger than the actual capture circle itself, you can get points

[vernal walrus]

I get that they want defensive plays to be "countered" but everything is just about rushing and zerging

[plucky jetty]

perhaps a hot take, but claymore during the spam days actually did do good at slowing zergs down and creating stalemates and exchanges rather than just having one force flood over and mow down the other

the barbed wire has helped a lot too... but it just isnt enough

[vernal walrus]

Sadly it created grievances even if it made zergs slower and more "controlled"

Overall LMGs can perform better if supports had better tools at their disposal

Like setting up outposts or defensive structures

[plucky jetty]

yea, they actually feel like fine weapons but the game just doesnt play around them

support is better now though than before. with the change to healing i can actually somewhat decently hold down an area by being able to patch myself up between fights

[vernal walrus]

Honestly they need to take a deeper look at destructible/buildable's interaction

[faint mural]

I find myself doing the same thing to be honest. It's silly how often you can win close quarters fights by just spraying down a hallway since the gun has so little wiggle room as far as hip movement.

I think the main issue with support is that the armor is still too weak for how slow it makes you, and in general the guns have such awful ADS speed that you need to have no hostiles looking at you to properly set up.

I wouldn't mind exo armor being as weak as it is now if it didn't suck in every other aspect

Plus, if it's an exo suit, shouldn't you be faster?

Or at least able to move at normal speeds

[plucky jetty]

the other thing that incentivizes zerging is that is the fastest and easiest way to get squad points which... well most people dont use them enough they are pretty powerful. with support being a slower and more defensive class they rely upon them more than the other classes which means that they get double whammied by being unable to attack effectively and not having the squad points to set up effective defenses

[faint mural]

Even then, the class as a whole suffers from bad movement speed even when using the lighter armors on hand

[storm kayak]

revert move speed nerf to all support class.

[plucky jetty]

still, even this wouldnt be an issue if the game didnt so heavily favor attacking

[faint mural]

Yeah, I agree

I think the only real solutions for support is to either make it faster or make the armor stronger

[storm kayak]

yeah what about support class as a whole being to slow??

its like concrete shoes

un playable

[faint mural]

Cement shoes while trying to run away from a monster in a dream

[drowsy plover]

Would be better if bipods acted like bipods

[plucky jetty]

and if suppression was an actual thing. imo, it should be something akin to scope sway but jerkier and more sporadic

it would give lmgs a longer range use instead of just making yourself sniper fodder. if i could hose in the general direction of a sniper and fuck his aim up by giving him massive and really jerky scope sway then i would really enjoy it. as it is support is just sniper fodder if you shoot for more than 3 seconds

[faint mural]

LMGs or the support class as a whole having a suppression effect would be really nice

Like, it can actually do its job

"Suppressing" right now just means you're missing shots with no benefit to you or your team

It would also provide a benefit to the support class vs snipers at medium range

[plucky jetty]

ehh, it can help if its a doorway or something you are hosing down. i get quite a few kills just sort of spraying into windows or doorways enemies are running past

[faint mural]

No more getting domed by a guy who had a gut feeling and 180'd you

[faint mural]

That's fair, but at the same time it can just as easily tell a mildly observant player to check for another angle to shoot you from

I've done that to guys trying to suppress my position more times than I can count

[plucky jetty]

well yea, thats why i only do this if they already know where i am or im surrounded by allies trying to push through. keeping enemies out of windows and doorways helps a lot

[faint mural]

That's why I think the support class could do with being a bit more punishing towards the unobservant in this regard

[plucky jetty]

give support a ghillie suit 🤔

[faint mural]

It's not uncommon for support gunners to use leafy suits among spec ops guys

Altho, they're all just using that stuff nowadays regardless of role

Something like this would be neat

Although, I am very much against the idea of being super stealthy bush beings in arcade shooters like this

[plucky jetty]

it would be fine if, as i regularly say, squad spawning wasnt a thing

squad spawning really fucks with the risk/reward ratio of things

[faint mural]

Squad spawning on its own has so many issues beyond just being a get-out-of-jail-free card

Like how the game has no idea what counts as "not in combat"

I think flags should be able to be spawned on while being captured, not being able to makes the squad spawning almost needed to counteract pushes

[plucky jetty]

stealthy ambush player sneaking behind enemy lines? high risk and time consuming but potentially huge reward. but, if you make it so you can just spawn in on some dude who did so it removes all the risk.

whether squad spawning remains or not, you cant fucking balance the game without keepin in mind how it fucks with playstyles and risk/reward

[faint mural]

But, on the same note, it can make gridlock much worse than it already is

[faint mural]

For real, idk how many times I basically pulled eight men out of my pocket into a rear position and destroyed 30+ players

[plucky jetty]

the fact that a single guy can contest a point and keep your entire team from spawning on it while his own squad pops out his ass is a huge gameplay issue. its the biggest example of the disparity between attacking and defending right now

[faint mural]

100% agree

It's way too easy to abuse and the only "legit" counter to it is using a rally point

Which really just exacerbates squad spawns in a way

[tawdry iris]

alr I'll pass along y'alls feedback
Just to paraphrase
Support needs to be faster
Exo armor doesn't do enough for the movement speed
Support needs to have more defensive ability
If the game is going to remain "fast" guns need to be able to keep up
Better rewards for defense (squad points, XP)

anything I missed?

[vernal walrus]

Give Supports to build anything without Squad Points

[tawdry iris]

huh

[tawdry iris]

that's too much

The easier squad points while defending is more reasonable

[vernal walrus]

Take Rush for example

[plucky jetty]

you know... thinking on that a limited ability to build without squad points would be nice though. being able to place a sandbag, just one, would help a lot. easier squad points fixes more issues with the game though as it would raise all classes up

[vernal walrus]

Most games I've played in that mode I get almost no points

[faint mural]

I think a discount would be good, but at the same time I feel like building stuff instantly should go to the engineer and not support lol

[vernal walrus]

So Support's instant build is worthless

CTF is also another mode that makes Support worthless outside of being a bandage station

[tawdry iris]

Ok, quick sales pitch, I've been thinking up a concept that other members don't like but
what if support generated a personal pool of squad points per minute that only they could use

[faint mural]

That would be great tbh

[plucky jetty]

engineer would be too stacked i think. they are already really good

[vernal walrus]

That's fine if it was reasonable and wasn't restricted to being sitting in a game for 20mins+

[faint mural]

This is true, it's just a bit jarring to me from an irl role standpoint

[tawdry iris]

20 points a minute passively from existing

[faint mural]

Altho I think engineer could use more variety in launchers than anything else

[tawdry iris]

maybe 10

still finetuning

[vernal walrus]

I look at Engineers as longer range C4

[faint mural]

Just thought of this, but maybe a set bonus for using all exo?

[plucky jetty]

thats enough to build a sandbag every now and then which would help a lot. i had some rough matches where, because im playing support and im so slow and the rest of my squad went a different direction, i couldnt actually get to a point before it was captures and thus for the first 5+ minutes of a match the whole squad couldnt build anything

[vernal walrus]

We do get one and it's being slow and immobile like the LMGs we have

[faint mural]

Encouraging a tank vs light support type role

[tawdry iris]

exo right now gets the complaint of being too much to fight against, so I'm more in the process of making it cover more and be faster at the cost of less health

[faint mural]

That's entirely fair

[tawdry iris]

being a tank just doesn't have a role in this game that would make it fun

[faint mural]

Like I said, exo has only two real directions to fix it with, and they're really polar opposite

I'd just be happy to have a faster exo speed

[vernal walrus]

Damage reduction or a flat shield

[tawdry iris]

Consider medic is the gold standard of class design rn

[plucky jetty]

idk man, i had a group of medics healing the shit out of me while i was peaking and it was like i was wolverine. tank absolutely exists in this game in the right circumstances

[tawdry iris]

Faster I think is the route worth taking

[faint mural]

Erm I think you meant engineer....

[tawdry iris]

Nah, Medic. The goal is for all classes to reach medic levels of good

I know this isn't what everyone wants to hear but

gotta work w/ it

[plucky jetty]

i have always thought a small amount of damage reduction would be the more ideal implementation of armor by allowing it to actually remain useful past the first fight you get in

[faint mural]

I'm just being a little jokester here, I get what you mean

[vernal walrus]

If we ever reach that point, but we'll see

[faint mural]

Do we have an engineer feedback channel? I'd like to do some input since engineer is my most played class by far

[tawdry iris]

Engi has gotten close to medic but it still needs more

[plucky jetty]

its honestly almost there already. with the self-heal changes support has been so much more pleasant to play

[tawdry iris]

not yet waiting for truedevil

[tawdry iris]

sure, but the class is still slow without good enough tradeoffs

[faint mural]

Engineer I think mostly needs more variety in launchers and a big fix to the fragmentation RPG

[tawdry iris]

the weapons don't stand out, the armor doesn't (and IMO shouldn't) stand out and overall the class is just slow

which isn't in line with the rest of the game's flow

ok, anything else?

[faint mural]

The armor is fine I think, he's just a slower assault with access to rockets

And a repair tool

[plucky jetty]

yea, but i mean now all of the classes are on a somewhat equal footing instead of medic reigning supreme with the self heals. it got rid of that massive opportunity cost of not playing medic: inability to heal yourself

[faint mural]

I feel like medics should get a cooldown on self-healing

[plucky jetty]

rockets and av grenades

[faint mural]

It's nuts that they can just whip out a box and run away for a split second just to trounce someone who outplayed them on the intitial engagement

[tawdry iris]

alr I'm gonna go ponder and write this stuff down thanks for y'alls input

[faint mural]

It would be like if the support could just get fresh ammo without laying down the ammo box like he's munching out of a cookie jar

BF solved this by requiring you to stay with your deployed box like everyone else

[vernal walrus]

Or bonus reload speed for putting their boxes down

[plucky jetty]

yea, crackhead medic is still an issue, the speed and movement that some players have with their loadouts is goofy as hell and they can heal while doing this...

it is still a lot better than before we could all self-heal

[vernal walrus]

If they want to bring things up to Medic's level

Give everyone a medic box

[faint mural]

Idk how many times I've died to medics while using a tank or IFV

[vernal walrus]

There's no way around it unless you have infinite sustain like they do

[faint mural]

They're more dangerous than engineers because they can fully heal while behind indestructible cover and ambush with C4

Plus they're fast, so they can juke forever right at you

Frankly, I think they shouldn't get C4 at all

[plucky jetty]

this is why i want recon to get antimaterial rifles that can penetrate through cover

[faint mural]

I have MANY complaints about the already annoying power of snipers at medium range

These better be prone only weapons

[plucky jetty]

pretty much one of the balance ideas i had

[faint mural]

I think that's fair then

[plucky jetty]

i dont want a weapon to 1shot people with headshots, i want a weapon to finish off that dude i just saw duck into cover behind those sandbags 😩

[faint mural]

Snipers are already in a really good spot, possibly one of the sleeper godlike classes

The damage ramp-up to one shot torsos is insane to me

[vernal walrus]

The fact they can zero in shots make shooting easier

[faint mural]

"Oh woops you didn't use heavy armor at 700 meters, you're dead now"

I get that the devs want extra long range sniping to be viable, but it should be a select few dedicated rifles and not literally all of them

[vernal walrus]

Limit roles

[faint mural]

Still, there's plenty of maps where you can just play line of sight correctly and win

[faint mural]

Already exists, just needs more limits

[plucky jetty]

sniper good, but glint in its current form is a bit stupid. i played since the first week or so and it has been surreal watching the amount of glint decrease. first few weeks and i would see 20+ per game. now i see maybe 1 or 2 glints from the occasional eccentric every other game if that.

anyways, this has kinda strayed away from m249 discussion 😆

[faint mural]

Or, rather, people just create infinitely smaller squads until we have only medics and snipers

[vernal walrus]

That's because M249 isn't the issue

The entire Support class is

And Bipod

[tawdry iris]

so uh

[faint mural]

Ironically the M249 has few issues and it's let down by a lack of balance in the ecosystem it lives in

[tawdry iris]

turns out the ak15 and LSWs share handling/runspeed stats

do we feel like the AK15 is too slow?

[faint mural]

YES

[tawdry iris]

because to move everything down you'd have an m249 as fast as current ak15

which might be bad

[faint mural]

It's not a heavy rifle at all, but it behaves like something twice it's weight

Personally, I think it's an odd choice to have it behave like a battle rifle

[tawdry iris]

ok but same thing with scar

should m249 have the same handling as scar/akf15

[faint mural]

The SCAR-H is actually a heavy fuckoff rifle that destroys optics irl with how heavy its recoil is

It behaves like it should

[tawdry iris]

the point is m249 would be as fast as scar if you buff it

I'm guessing that's too far

[plucky jetty]

honestly, maybe a funky idea here but maybe recoil should be more closely corelated with the "weight" of a gun, or rather the stats that represent the weight which are ads speed and run speed.

[faint mural]

That would be nifty

[tawdry iris]

we're going a bit too far into this

[faint mural]

Agreed

[tawdry iris]

let's dial it back, add movement speed/ads to the armor and see how it feels

if it's still too slow we can talk about gun stats

an m249 being as fast as an AK15 would be a meme

[edgy mango]

Am I the only one who consistently gets seemingly beamed by the M249 on a regular basis lol? Or am I somehow always just the 50% the bullets hit?

[faint mural]

I think the SCAR is a little slow, but it doesn't need a ton of buffing to make it feel nicer to use

The main issue with gun balance is that, if we're trying to make everything more on par with the M4 and AK-74, almost every other AR needs a buff

On the other hand, you could nerf the M4 and AK-74 and all the guns are relatively reasonable comparatively

It's a question of whether we want to pull down or build up, but both have some negative potential

[vernal walrus]

You happened to be unlucky unless they been tapping their shots

[plucky jetty]

it is a pretty serviceable gun. i use it at 50m-100m with the long barrel and vert grip.

really, the problem is the ecosystem the guns live in

[vernal walrus]

Given our options with attachments

We don't have many choices

[faint mural]

The attachment problem is a whole mess imo

Most don't have any real benefit and those that do benefit a select few already good guns far too much

[plucky jetty]

the uhhh, gun fighter grip is also pretty good too because it is the best at ads speed and horizontal recoil

[faint mural]

Guns with almost no side to side recoil get best in slot attachments, while guns with more side to side get almost nothing that makes the gun competitive with those top slot guns

[plucky jetty]

really, the problem is that some grips just have too many upsides and too few downsides

[vernal walrus]

That's ok but most have little upsides and lots of downsides

[plucky jetty]

hell, there are some grips i have unlocked while progressing some guns where the previous grip is superior in every way to the later grip

[faint mural]

^

This is a MASSIVE problem imo

[plucky jetty]

literally no tradeoffs

[faint mural]

I really have no idea how to fix this

It's a pretty serious issue for gameplay

[vernal walrus]

Devs need to methodically go through each one and ask "Why do we have this?"

[faint mural]

Too many attachments with like 70% of them being useless on 100% of the guns

[plucky jetty]

part of the issue is some stats dont really seem to do anything. control really doesnt do anything for any gun except those with high power scopes

[faint mural]

I don't even know what it does

[plucky jetty]

it is how fast your scope stops swaying when you hold your breath. so high ads speed and high control means you can scope in, hold breath, and shoot in a fraction of a second

[faint mural]

Oh, so it's basically irrelevant to every other class lol

[plucky jetty]

yea, fucking exactly

but like, its seriously an issue. stubby grip vs vertical skeleton grip. skelly grip is worse in every way except a marginal difference in first shot recoil which doesnt even matter much for snipers

same with magpul angled on snipers

[faint mural]

In general I think different weapon classes should get different attachments

As it is, there's two suppressors (the NT 556 and SDN 762, which go to 5.56 and 7.62 weapons irl respectively) in the loud category while we have generic short and long suppressors for the actual sound suppression devices

That's not even going into how attachments aren't even scaled to the guns correctly half the time

For being such an integral part of the game, it comes off as utterly unfinished and poorly thought out

[snow night]

Fix the bipod!

[clear panther]

Current meta is low recoil, high RoF and running around like crazy. So what do most players do to their M249? Try to reduce their recoil as much as possible and instead of becoming a defending "turret", run around like everyone else. This weapon should be strongest when planted down with the bipod but ironically it performs best when you do everything to reduce recoil from a standing position.

[north solstice]

I think this gun could do with a little less recoil - it’s about as damaging as an M4A1 but the recoil is notably higher despite the gun being heavier, why?

[vernal walrus]

LMGs

It should be easier to control the recoil considering the weight

[proud thicket]

Lower the penalty for bipods across all LMGs, currently they're almost pointless

[brave patio]

M249, bread and butter LMG. M4 TTK with 100 round mag. Gun is pretty balanced atm. Recoil isn't too bad (Limits it to Med range and close range engagements). Slow movement speed and slow reload speed means you can't just run around like other classes with an M4 and beam people. I would say its really balanced atm and requires no changes.

[vernal walrus]

It requires tweaking particularly in the movement speed and ADS speed especially with how fast the game is.

Accuracy would be a better adjustment if they don't intend to give more "speed" to the gun itself. It's accuracy is pretty bad causing more bullet hosing than needed.

[drowsy plover]

I just wish bipods would work like they do in battlefield. Especially in bf1 you are really locked to that position and it makes your gun a laser at the cost of all mobility

[vernal walrus]

I wish bipods just work

[north solstice]

They do, they’re just… intentionally bad, I suppose

[vernal walrus]

The legs folding out with the white dots works
But the Bipod does nothing to the actual gun besides intentionally nerfing it even more

[north solstice]

It does, just not much

It removes weapon sway

Not an issue unless you’re literally sniping

[vernal walrus]

What sway? On the LMG?

[north solstice]

Yep. All guns have sway and LMGs naturally have a lot (low control stat)

If you’re 40x scope sniping with an M200 then a bipod is actually useful, that’s about it though

[vernal walrus]

The control stat means nothing unless you have a x6+ scope on and iirc only DMRs and Snipers have that

[north solstice]

Yes

It should at least reduce recoil, I think

[vernal walrus]

It should but it doesn't currently

It's literally a direct nerf to you if you use it on the gun

Apparently there was a laser shot camping meta before they released the game

So they nerfed the Bipod but that's from what I heard

[native coral]

We can post our concerns with with bipod here as well 😁👍
https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1138534897246556301

[vernal walrus]

M249 feels fine to use if you hit your shots but it is far too inaccurate past 25m.

[vernal walrus]

Given there is no way to tame the accuracy and only recoil. It feels bad especially when you flanked them properly.

[brave patio]

not sure what attachements you running, but i've had many kills at around the 50m to 100m marks with BCM gun fighter and Compensator. Try using those attachments with a 1x sight. It works wonders for me on the SAW

[north solstice]

It’s still higher than comparable guns for no real reason

[tawdry iris]

It actually does turn down your vertical recoil

just not by much

[tawdry iris]

yea it's very slightly better than vertical grip

[plucky jetty]

Except vertical grip always works

You can use a bipod and shoot through the sandbag with holes.

[tawdry iris]

If bipod had no downsides period, basically acting as an empty attachment, would you take it with it's current bonuses

[vernal walrus]

No downsides like not having to play a puzzle game each time you prone to activate the attachment and it actually reduces the vertical and horizontal recoil enough to notice a difference from the vertical/flash hider? Sure.

[vernal walrus]

I have no issues getting kills. I don't like how inconsistent it is compared to SMG and AR while dealing at those ranges.
Our ADS is already completely garbage and we deal with the worse recoils and accuracy.
The L8 is closest thing we have to an AR that except it has a stupid amount of recoil like the rest of the Support weapon just because and to make it even usable requires very specific attachments which don't unlock until much later making it feel like 💩 until then.

I run medium scopes with a red dot since I don't want to squint each time I use a x1/x2 scope around 50m+

[plucky flax]

All support weapons are outclassed in every role. Fix bipod. Add more suppression mechanics

[plucky jetty]

i would love if sway was added to all scopes and if suppression added a jerky and unpredictable sway. some dude hosing at you? your aim will get slightly jittery and it will fuck with your ability to hit longer range shots

[plucky flax]

see also: https://discord.com/channels/303681520202285057/1120273018543951912

[south path]

yeah trying to use anything above a 1x is fucking useless

[brave patio]

yeah, med scopes aren't that good on anything other than snipers or AUG, Slip sight is about the only exception

[north solstice]

slip sight is good for almost anything

[calm olive]

please fix the bipod for this
otherwise it's an awesome gun, with some pointless attachments

[hollow sparrow]

if only LMGS had the effective range that they should

[formal wave]

has over 100m last I checked before damage drop off (and than you need to go below 25 for unarmored)

[north solstice]

Recoil is the main issue

[vocal bough]

yeah, i dont know how to describe it, but the recoil feels extremely snappy. Other shooters with high recoil guns dont have this problem. Especially the M249, i got the bipod thinkin i could chill with it and do what its supossed to do.. spray at long range with 0 recoil cuz y'know, 8kg weapon planted on the ground with a person behind it should not have recoil, then i was met with my sight jumping all over the place

[hallow shell]

I think that the LMG's need a buff. Atleast the tripod. I think BF5 did it right. A soldier with an M1919A6 walking around was pretty useless due to recoil, but when he found his spot and got his weapon settled on a tripod he became a machine of death.The tripod should definetly eradicate almost all recoil. A stationary soldier with an LMG on a tripod should be very deadly. At this moment the recoil makes him no more harmfull than a soldier who's doing a run and gun with an ak15. I don't think that's fair towards the support class. I think that this change would distinguish the support class from other classes which it deserves.

[vocal bough]

using the m249 with a bipod had the same recoil as just runnnig around with it and a grip 💀, battlefield games definetly did it right. i remember getting that scoped lmg in bf1, didnt have the highest damage but it had a very big box magazine with practically 0 recoil

[north solstice]

I think the gun needs a buff

Ultimax got one that put it above comparable ARs for its niche aside from the slow movement and aimdown times. The M249 is just a worse M4 with a bigger mag.

[proud thicket]

Make the m249 an ultimax with higher damage, recoil and RoF, but less control

But still in the same ballpark

The ultimax is a very comfortable weapon to use with the downside of slow RoF and low damage

[plucky jetty]

Ultimax having that low horizontal recoil really makes it feel smooth as fuck vs the m249. M249 bonuses of slightly higher rof and damage dont really compete with that

Obviously at closer ranges m249 is better, but the ultimax becomes superior to the m249 a little too quickly as range increases

[tawdry iris]

What does this mean

[north solstice]

Control doesn’t really matter and the other 3 characteristics are already true

I just think TTK should be a little faster and recoil a little lower.

[tawdry iris]

So 750 firerate and same feeling recoil?

or 750 firerate and even less recoil

[north solstice]

Fire rate doesn’t have to change, but if it increases then recoil must be decreased in proportion.

[hallow shell]

It should'nt keep going up with the bipod! Only to a small degree and stop!

Fix this devs come on!

Stop making the bipod useless!

(only useful on snipers)

[brave escarp]

bipod should eliminate the recoil, you are standing still

[burnt cave]

well fix bipod, but they won't, nerfed it because "lmg snipers" and now the devs don't wanna anymore

[vocal bough]

oh no "lmg snipers"

smg effective up to 200m if you can aim
over 50% of players are damn snipers
most guns can easily kill at range
but ye, i guess lmgs shouldnt be good at the one thing theyre supossed to do aye

[burnt cave]

hyperbole but i feel you very much
fix bipod.

[fervent canyon]

Bipod.

[tall spindle]

What if there was a “Short Mag” option that uses the magazine well in the side?

Maybe give it like 40-60 rounds in exchange for handling buffs like much faster reloads, ADS time, run speed, and control.

[candid steppe]

Bipod chan where are you. But ya worse MG36 with a funny mag.

[devout tiger]

MAKE BIPOD USEFUL

[formal wave]

I would suggest possibly upping the fire rate by 50-100 rpm

[safe hazel]

it really doesn't need a buff like that

M249 is already great

[burnt cave]

it really isn't
just a worse m4 really
objectivly worst lmg at lmging, not hard when there's only 2 but still

[safe hazel]

100 bullets is not to be underestimated. flanking with the m249 is exceedingly rewarding, since you get to unload at as many people as you could possibly want

the problems are with support himself, really. let exo armor kool-aid man through walls and fix the bipod, and m249 will be right at home

[tawdry iris]

M249 is comfortably average, but that's not really something of value right now. Giving support a power option in an 800, maybe even 825 option 100 round gun would go miles in letting you play an aggressively powerful support TF2 Heavy style

[brave escarp]

I started running M249 with big vest and normal helmet, feels like a dream

Having agility with a big magazine is amazing

[burnt cave]

mg5 with 800rpm
mg3 with 1000-1200rpm

[formal wave]

#1138399550210576466 message

read this when you get a chance

but summary

M4a1 stats in everything but V recoil, magazine capacity, and max damage range is better, including the fact it has less than Half the horz recoil of a M249 for a bit more (more easily managed) vertical recoil, so the M249 can lose to a M4A1 in it's preferred role quite easily

Reason I propose a slight buff is that it has no real upsides to the M4 beside the larger magazine size but you get ALL those downsides for it

[tepid knoll]

I feel miserable using this m249. Maybe I don't have the right attachments but it bounces alot while shooting, it shoots pretty slow and I lose most firefights at all ranges.

[brave escarp]

Run a setup for horizontal recoil reduction

And do not use medium scopes

[tepid knoll]

I'll see what attachments I have for it to reduce the h recoil

[safe hazel]

pretty much just this

it's very controllable with short sights

[tepid knoll]

I was using medium scope, cause I love using those, but I'll have to detach it after using industrial glue to put it there

[safe hazel]

strikefire/aim comp/HS401G5 are really good compromises between short sights and medium scopes

[tepid knoll]

It's working better now with attachment changes
Weird enough it shows no hitmarkers or kill markers with this weapon

[plucky flax]

You might be in a community server where those things are turned off

[tepid knoll]

True lemme check shooting range

ok yeah that was it, never had seen that before

Anyways it was alot more usable. Doesn't particularly win fair close-midrange fights, but I can get people from further sometimes better

[formal wave]

didn't know that CS had that option

[plucky flax]

Find a "hardcore" server, those usually have it off

[tepid knoll]

Played with this for a while with h recoil lessened below 1 and it was very usable
Got like 5 guys by surprise with all the bullets I got on the box

[brave escarp]

still hoping they rework bipods

[ripe bloom]

I feel like the 249 could use a 50 round mag version

[paper depot]

M249 doesnt feel as long range as it should. Ultimax should always be better but even at 75m the m249 feels like its not accurate enough

[tepid knoll]

I cant use a x4 proper with the lmg. Found out it's more of an lmg you use on long fights at close range like namak or invasion in general

[paper depot]

thats an issue with the game in general. scopes are way too shakey
it is a closerange lmg but its not that good and gets outgunned by almost every automatic

[tepid knoll]

Yeh im not a fan

They also have the most in the middle damage per bullet values

[paper depot]

even using an m4, 1 less damage. but it feels like an absolute lazerbeam. m249 kicks too much for not that much damage

[tepid knoll]

Yeh I don't like using the lmgs at all unless I plan to bipod and even then it's a risk not moving to then get decimated by a sniper even with a fort

[paper depot]

yea you got this huge heavy thing lugging around and its not worth all the slowness

like make it outgun all other automatics except ultimax in range or firepower since speed is the most OP stat in this game

[formal wave]

As stated several times prior

the M249 trades around less vertical for over 2x the horz compared to the M4A1

(So the gun with 2x the max damage range has over 2x the horz recoil, and less velocity)

[tall spindle]

And has 333% the ammo capacity of the M4 for about 50% longer reload speed (twice as long with quick mags).

[formal wave]

Give it this, LMGs should naturally have good ammo capacities be it at a cost of slower reloads, ADS & such

my main headache is the whole confusion between where it is and what is it's aim (compared to the M4, the longer damage range you would think suggests it to be a longer ranged gun, but than the H-Recoil and velocity bites you in the rear type idea)

[tall spindle]

Well, yeah.

I think the velocity now is close enough to not really matter, and the bipod with the sheer volume of fire really extends the effective range of the M249. You can seriously reach out and touch further than with an M4, though the Ultimax is still king of that.

[formal wave]

aye

it is in a much better placed compared to launch

just still seems a touch confused

[tall spindle]

I'd still love to see the actual bipod on that gun, even suggested as much.

[paper depot]

That's actually bad. Because horizontal is harder to control

Guns will always go up but you cannot predict left or right per bullet. This is why even the old weaker Ultimax was considered so accurate despite is insane vertical recoil

[north solstice]

it used to have 3 first shot kick which was the main thing for that, I think

[formal wave]

to clarify it is around 0.3 less vertical (1.4 to 1.1 if I am thinking right) and 0.6 to the 1.3 (so M4 compared to M249)

(so 0.3 V-recoil for 0.7 H-Recoil roughly, assuming I did my math right & Recall the M4's base stats well enough, no offense I find that gun boring (Not bad, just boring) and don't play it much)

[tall spindle]

Oh yeah, the M4 is boringly effective. The only other guns even more boringly effective is the G36 and the AK74.

[ripe bloom]

yeah horizontal recoil is far far worse than vertical recoil it wouldn't even be an equal trade if it was 1:0.5 the saws way because the barrel isn't been driven just to the left or right like the M4 is being driven only up via recoil it's being driven left AND right

[ripe bloom]

you'll wish your gun was boring after getting used to the Scorpion EVO

[tall spindle]

I know that.

[formal wave]

I will state this

I am a support main

When I swap off support, it is generally challenge based or For one gun

the Scorpion Evo because dakka dakka

but back to the point

M249 wise I would be fully up for reducing the H-Recoil

[paper depot]

Having practiced with the M249 way too much I can fully say the bipod is not necessary at all for high range.
I'm wondering what if the bipod attachment made scope bounce less. Making 4x LMG builds way more useful.

Also speed vs tactical reloading on the M249 has a very negligible time difference. Very weird considering it's an LMG with the longest reload ingame (pretty sure)

[burnt cave]

even a 2x is not really viable on this gun

[paper depot]

I run the slip it's barely usable.

[weary shuttle]

u run the slip

just run strikefire ong

[formal wave]

strikefire is a 1x cabbage

slip is a 2x

[weary shuttle]

Duh

Y would i tell him to run a 1x if he struggling with 2x hmmmm

I mean mabye its just a skill issue

Id rather have a 1x for the faster scope in (even if only a slight increase) when u can just be more precise at range (its literally a skill issue either way