AS VAL - Feedback

[keen atlas]

Put your feedback on the AS Val.

Please keep it on topic, and civil, we want serious feedback

• No gifs
• No 'skill issue'
• No video's - (Testing video's in the Polygon are fine)

[scenic hedge]

Reduce both its horizontal and vertical recoil, feels like a worse assault rifle with 20 round mags, damage seems good and i think it just needs to be more controllable specially since you can reduce the recoil way more with muzzle attachments on really similar guns

[split rock]

This thing certainly needs some love. When the vector gets nerfed, it'll have more of a fighting chance, but less horizontal recoil would be an excellent plus.

The 20 round mag is also fine, IF AND ONLY IF the extended round magazines were less severe.

[glacial peak]

Damage is fine. Its vertical recoil feels bearable, but its horizontal recoil is too high. Lowest you are able to get the horizontal recoil is 1.71 with a tradeoff of 1.50 vert. Its recoil problems are even more apparent when equipping the extended mag bumping the horizontal recoil to a whopping 2.14. If anything, at least lower the horizontal recoil as there is no reason to use this weapon especially when unlocked at level 105.

[rustic fox]

bring back the old horizontal recoil(1.6)

[paper phoenix]

Decresing horizontal recoil to between 1.20-1.40 would definitely improve this gun and make it more viable while still keeping it close range prowess and limiting longer range effectivness. Vertical recoil also could use some changes, slight decreas would be welcomed.

[knotty salmon]

One thing I find personally weird about both the AS-VAL and Honey Badger in particular, both are integrally suppressed but dont have reduced sound spread, like other guns with a suppressor. I feel like, even if it doesnt REALLY change much, it would be nice if that was reflected on integrally suppressed weapons. Agree with the horizontal as well, its FAR too high. I can deal with the vertical personally, horizontal just hurts

[molten pike]

Horizontal recoil must be significantly reduced same goes with honey badger, it seems like a terrible way of "this gun was strong before, lets add more Horizontal to make it balance" move, attachments that affect Horizontal recoil arent impactful enough to fix the weapon

[tiny trench]

reduce either the recoil or increase mag size. its hard to get 2 kills with 1 mag on medium distances, mainly due to recoil and spread. having a bigger mag would compensate for that, instead of having to reload after every kill. having lower recoil would reduce the amount of bullets flying into oblivion and makes the lower ammo count and faster reload that comes with it, more effective.

[jade kraken]

The Horizontal recoil is painful for my taste
I dont mind with the low mag size, but only if the recoil is much more bearable
I guess the Attachments giving too little of an effect to this gun is also kinda the problem

The lack of feedback in this is really unfortunate
As AS VAL is one of my fav gun and i wished to hear more from others

But i guess that's because the gun is available at rank 105 or 50+ hours of playtime making it rare to see people (casual players) using it
I really wished the grind is lowered so we could see more feedback to this gun

Out of topic a little bit
Rather than make a feedback section for specific weapon, why dont make it as a specific type of weapons, as its much more better to see the gun in a broader view, tho it might not work for Carbines since currently it only has 2 weapons, but it would help alot for KRISS Vector as an SMG.

[modest eagle]

There is absolutely 0 reason to play this gun.

Low mag size, mediocre damage, abysmal velocity, no muzzle attachments and that absolutely god awful horizontal recoil make this thing entirely pointless.

It just goes on the massive pile of guns in this game that are just eiher hopelessly outmatched or simply painful to use.

[modest eagle]

Of course, this goes for the HB too, as it's literally identical, just with a slightly bigger mag and slower reload.

[elder prism]

Do not reduce anything, make the gun worse if anything,

give it a small amount of muzzle flash that cannot be reduced, the kicker is, also remove the tracer effect from 90% of its shots or so.

ex: Turn it into "the" short range super assassin rifle with a built in silencer it was meant to be, it doesn't need to be balanced into the other guns, it is fine being markedly worse, but have its own unique stealth mechanic

[modest eagle]

It's a subsonic long 9MM cartridge. There's no reason why it kicks as hard as it does, especially on the horizontal. Vertical is fine, but the horizontal is absolutely dreadful on a gun that can't have a barrel mod.

The negatives of the extended mag are also ridicolous. +0.47 horizontal recoil? Might as well only shoot at people who're lying down at this point.

[karmic yew]

i think guns like the as val and honey badger might fit into their own niche if you removed the vapor trails / tracer like effect from them. might help them fit into a stelth flanker niche just a thought i had

[modest eagle]

Having no tracers is basically of no advantage when you can't reliably engage anyone in the open

And the fact that it has the same exact stats of a weapon with an entirely different architecture and cartridge screams lazy from every pore

"Here's a very slight sidegrade of a weapon you unlocked 70 levels ago, enjoy"

[static haven]

idk the gun isnt terrible but its below average,
low mag size, high recoil, low velocity and no barrel attachments, and dmg being short 1,4 dmg of a 3 shot kill

i feel like u could keep the magsize but tone down the other things and it might be good enough

[modest eagle]

I don't know man, I'm F U Sighting all guns I unlock and this feels by far the worst together with the HB. Not even the Aug which I expected to suck was this painful, if anything it was so much more enjoyable.

[elder prism]

"Having no tracers is basically of no advantage when you can't reliably engage anyone in the open"
you have 30 other guns to do that, let the val be unique

[modest eagle]

??

I think you're missing the point.
The gun is garbage. Why would giving it an ability that it can't really make use of improve it?

Wtf is going to see your tracers when you're shooting within 10m? God?

[elder prism]

I dont know about you, but knowing approximately where the guy is before I engage him is generally a pretty big plus for me

[modest eagle]

Yeah, which is plenty useful in the open, not in corridors and windows.

[elder prism]

so dont use it in the open?

[modest eagle]

Mind you, I fully agree it needs that, but saying it'd fix the gun is delusional.

[modest eagle]

You literally can't read and that's ok.

That is exactly my point.

[elder prism]

I dont see the problem with the worst gun being the worst gun, but unique

[modest eagle]

I see the problem when it could not be the worst gun by this much of a large margin

It can be unique and not garbage

[elder prism]

ok

[modest eagle]

Incredible eh?

[elder prism]

try the famas?

[modest eagle]

Yes, it's ass

Not sure why the Famas matters to the VAL

Feels like I'm talking to a toddler.

[elder prism]

sure

[modest eagle]

On a lighter note.

I absolutely agree with your suggestion, it just needs more than that.

And, in truth, all silencers and pre-silenced guns need this kind of love

[noble root]

Its just an MP5 with 10 less bullets and way more recoil, with absurd recoil compared to a silenced MP5

It has the same issue the honey badger has, it's just a bad mp5

[dark torrent]

reducing horizontal recoil a little and buffing it by 2 damage to 34-36 (making it a 3 hit kill against a 100 hp target) would do a lot for it

would still have the downsite of low mag size but at least would have some damage so if you hit your shots youre good

[long pumice]

The gun currently has the strength of very quick time to kill and aimdown time; it fills a good niche. I think loosing mag capacity is a fine trade off considering it reloads quite quickly, but it also has big recoil problems. I think if the gun is to be buffed, recoil should be the focus.

[woeful spade]

Unfortunately, if you buffed the damage to 34, you will have a gun that kills just as fast as the scorpion evo. So if you were to go that route, you will also need to increase vertical recoil or horizontal recoil to keep it in line with the EVO.

[long pumice]

I think generally it would still be a little slower than the EVO, but yeah damage buff is not needed, the gun is already strong in raw ttk

[woeful spade]

depends, against unarmored, its exactly the same if you buffed the damage up to 34. Against armor it will have its original TTK prebuff

[long pumice]

It always depends. People tend to exaggerate the importance of bypassing specific thresholds for ttk since there are countless possible scenarios involving different hit locations, armour types and how damaged the enemy already is.

[dark torrent]

I think the recoil is already "bad enough" as is for a gun that has fast TTK.

Imo Val should be a gun that just destroys people that are in your face, but has bad range

Right now it has terrible horizontal recoil, pretty bad vertical too (but vertical is fine) really bad velocity (as its a subsonic gun) really low damage dropoff start range and a very limited amagzine size, especially considering the fire rate, damage would be a perfect buff for it because it would make it better at its close ranmge role and it would be almost just as ass at any kind of range

tho I do understand the concerns with a damage buff to a 800 rpm gun, because there can be a lot of scenarios where you just instant die point blank

but it hnik thats fine if the gun is just bad at everything past point blank

[flint condor]

After the fix, the weapon is completely unplayable. It makes no sense to take it in your hands. The recoil is impossible to control. For 20 rounds with such recoil you can kill at most one person, which is obviously not enough for such a game. For the damage I'm not even talking. Conclusion: the fix is overdone. (honney badger is an absolute copy, don't forget about it too)

[modest eagle]

After 400 VAL kills, my longest vector kill is still 50m further out than that of the VAL lmao

It's just ridiculous how useless this gun is

[noble root]

Longest vector is 115m havent got half that or a quarter of that on the ASVAL, most my smgs have a +100m kill on em other then the PP2000

recoil makes it pretty hard to anyone taking cover and the clip size makes it impossible to rush people positions and kill 2-3 max

[noble root]

Honestly removing tracers is prob a good way to balance the gun if they really want it to be a stealth gun with high recoil

[inner roost]

Gives some love to AS VAL please, if u dont want to nerf vector, then make AS VAL great again!!!

[oblique pier]

Literally Honey Badger

[hasty sorrel]

I had literally been so excited to unlock the AS -VAL because it was my favorite gun in MW2019. I grinded to 105 whenever I got the chance. After unlocking I've gotten 700+ kills with it and the horizontal recoil is VERY difficult for me control and makes the gun very unfun to use. I regularly lose gunfights where at 35+ meters between the recoil and flinch.

[noble root]

The gun cant really be used past 30-50m range. It having tracers is just the coffin in the nail. It shares the same TTK as the MP5 on everything but medium armor but lacks the movespeed and recoil so chances are you can land 5-6 shots at 70-90m on a target but good luck getting anything past your first shot with the AS VAL, so it being able to pick off people without tracers giving your position every time would help the Honeybadger/AS VAL perform as a stealth gun

[hasty sorrel]

also I think the additional recoil from the 30 round mag is too much, the increase reload time is fair though.

[compact pier]

I unlocked this gun last night and took it for a spin, since it requires level 105 to unlock, I was intrigued. After using it for a round or 2, I couldn't see why I would use this weapon over countless other options that are easier to control and have a larger ammo capacity. The TTK is OK if you can control the recoil, but it feels like another in a long list of weapons you unlock that feels outclassed by earlier weapon unlocks.

[long pumice]

the ttk on the As Val is way faster than the mp5

like, it's not even close

not including guns with long barrels, as val is the joint third fastest ttk in the game, according to my current set of assumptions

[blazing elm]

God the AS VAL was amazing in MW19, I still preferred the MP5 though, due to the MP5SD haha

[dark torrent]

wouldn't say "way faster" ; its raw TTK is the same in most situations (assuming 100% accuracy and no headshots), and even if you take accuracy, headshot chance, limb shot chance, hurt enemies, and the different armors into consideration I only get like a 0.9s ttk for val vs a 1.1s on mp5 with the distribution I chose (25% accuracy, 15% headshots, 20% limb shots, and most opponents being either 100 hp, or 112 hp (with 12 hp helmet too), plus with that accuracy chances its 14 shots for a kill, thats almost a whole mag on the val

[long pumice]

accuracy doesn't make a difference at all

[dark torrent]

well yeah same rpm

but val has less mag size

so it matters

[long pumice]

RPM and accuracy are unrelated

[dark torrent]

with accuracy I mean your aim not the accuracy of the gun

[long pumice]

anyway, I currently assume 20% headshot and 40% limb shot, I can use your values and see how much it changes

[dark torrent]

how much % of your shots actually hit

[long pumice]

I am aware.

[dark torrent]

theres 0 chance you get 40% limb shots

[long pumice]

limbs are like half the body

well, the lower half plus a decent portion of the upper body

[dark torrent]

yes but you typically aim on the center of the person not the outline

[long pumice]

some people target legs specifically, anyway. I will use your numbers.

As Val TTK = 0.244, MP5 TTK = 0.303. Pretty similar to my previous numbers in comparison to each other. This is with a weighted distribution of all armour types

[dark torrent]

I also use 25% are unarmored, 30% are light armor + normal helmet, 10% normal armor + normal helmet, 14% heavy armor + heavy helmet, 15% exo armor + exo helmet and 6% are 50 hp (pre damaged)

[long pumice]

An interesting methodology. I don't currently have any way of a good estimate for pre-damaged enemies so I don't count them

but I doubt it would make much difference, so I'm wondering where the discrepancy comes from

[dark torrent]

id assume the way of calculating it

I use a relatively simplified estimation, but it has been producing quite realistic results

[long pumice]

what do you mean, by simplified?

[dark torrent]

well, for example I dont calculate for any possible helmet + armor combination

[long pumice]

me neither tbf

[dark torrent]

just light and normal armor bnoth use normal helmet, heavy uses heavy helmet etc

oh tho I forgor to change headshot mult for the Val oops

[long pumice]

I have re-run it with your armour ratios as well, but As Val is still winning by quite a bit. But not as much as it was. It's now 0.216 and 0.26

0.46 seconds slower

[dark torrent]

but anyhow, vs 100 hp target which is also quite common

mp5 is so much better because its ttk is the same but the gun is better at everything

[long pumice]

interesting that you assume so many to have light armour. just in case you care, I did a poll on this and medium armour is actually the most popular by quite a lot

[dark torrent]

i assume so many light because ranger armor that gives you extra mags

almost everyone I knwo runs ranger tbh

[long pumice]

anecdotes are not a good source to me. but I will run another poll soon if community attitudes have changed since then

I am interested as to why you get different results to me though. Can you summarise your method?

mine basically runs a large number of trials where bullets to kill (after the first shot) are measured with each shot having a random hit location, and average ttk for a specific armour setup is measured from that.

[dark torrent]

i calculate average shots to kill with bodyshots, limb shots, headshots for every armor combo, then do a weighted average for those

and then a weighted average between the resulting shots to kill for the armor types

its not a simulation just a simplified calculation, theres some obvious flaws like the headshot calculation assumes a kill with only headshots in that case

but it works quite well

I have a calc that can calculate the hist to kill correctly with liek mixed headshots and shit too, but I cba to use that formula for the averaging out bc its too much work

anyhow, accuracy also matters here because if you need 4 hits to kill but only have 20% accuracy (pretty fair to assume with a gun with ass recoil liek val) thats a whole mag to get the kill

while mp5 needing 1 hit more woudl still have 5 extra rounds you cna miss

[long pumice]

mmm. I will consider mine more accurate then. yours sounds like it works the same as the first version of mine, which produced quite different results to what I have now

[long pumice]

doesn't matter. 20% hit rate will make your average ttk in all scenarios 5x longer, for all guns. because on average you simply need to fire 5x as more to do the exact same thing

[dark torrent]

??? did you read what i wrote

your ttk with val is gonna be much longer if you need to reload to get the kill because you missed shots lol

mp5 gives you "bonus" bullets you can miss too

[long pumice]

oh, I did not read very well... an interesting concept

[dark torrent]

val is so extremely much worse than mp5 in any kind of gameplay its not even worth a ttk comparison overall tbh

[long pumice]

20% accuracy is not a common scenario, but it is considerable

[dark torrent]

id say 20% is pretty average

maybe ask people in eng channel what their in-game accuracy is

[long pumice]

according to the numbers I have, on an average case the as val would kill someone in a mag with 20% accuracy, but if its unlucky it will not

[long pumice]

that isn't too helpful, it considers stuff like helicopter minigun firing

[dark torrent]

yeah with 20% I get exactly 20 bullets to kill someoen out of mine on average

25 for mp5

but val only has 20, mp5 has 30

[long pumice]

my program doesn't output btk as a stat, but it claims an As Val has a maximum theoretical average of 5.157 kills per mag

[dark torrent]

you can just calc btk out of your ttk and the rpm

[dark torrent]

0.216 ttk with 800 rpm would be 3.88 bullets

average

0.26 would be 4.47

so val would be 4, mp5 would be 5

same as mine says

[long pumice]

yes, I do not round the values because that does not represent the average case

[dark torrent]

???? you cant not round bullets man

[long pumice]

well, round them further than 3dp

[dark torrent]

youre not shootign half a bullet

[long pumice]

but if there's a half chance of needing to shoot that bullet. I would say you are

[dark torrent]

ttk is completely invalid if its calculated for 3.5 bullets instead of 4

[long pumice]

it isn't

in a given scenario at least

but across many, it will be a more precise value.

[dark torrent]

thats always going to gimp numbers towards higher damage guns even if they effectively going to take the same hits to kill almost all the time

[long pumice]

I don't see why it would.

if they take less hits to kill some of the time, then this must be taken into account

I would really reccomend not assuming integer bullet to kill values for finding the final ttk of a weapon. It's simply further from reality as it represents the most average scenario, not the likely product from a range of scenarios

[dark torrent]

the "most average scenario" is what you encounter when you shoot someone in the game on average

and since you typically go engagement to engagement, you will always end up with a interger btk value in gameplay

[long pumice]

an example. give an AK-15 a long barrel. This speeds up its time to kill against a medium armoured player a lot, it makes a significant overall difference to how fast the gun will kill. But that will likely be totally ignored with the way you're doing things, because it probably doesn't make a full btk average difference.

[long pumice]

if you only had a single gunfight... people will have hundreds, thousands of kills with their favourite weapons.

the btk will not be the same for all of them. it's important we factor this in.

[dark torrent]

yes but every individual kill will have a whole number btk there, and thats pretty important when youre also looking at capacity of the gun compared to btk when you also miss shots

which is a hugely impiortant factor in gameplay

[long pumice]

to consider a smaller range of scenarios is simply less accurate. I don't really care how you put it.

[dark torrent]

you cant peek a guy, shoot 20 round sout of the val, not kill him and tell him he should be dead on average

[long pumice]

I didn't imply you can. But since you probably would have done, that should have informed you better on your weapon choices beforehand.

I believe every possible scenario should be accounted for and weighted for how likely it is. this will get you perfect stats. I cannot do this, but I will try to consider as many as can be done in my algorithm.

ignoring scenarios entirely because they're unlikely, rather than just prioritising them less, really biases the answer.

[dark torrent]

well, not using roundup, i get ~0.21s/ for mp5 and ~0.18s for val, in any case, val is faster in theory but the mp5 is the far superior gun

[long pumice]

I will not argue that the As Val is superior to the MP5, because I don't agree with it. But we should appreciate the advantages is does have.

[dark torrent]

val should have the fastest ttk point blank of any gun in the game anyways imo, it has slow velocity, low capacity, and shoudl ahve big damage dropoff too, its overall the definition fo a gun that shoudl destroy up close but be bad at range

[modest eagle]

The only thing the AS VAL is good at is catching SMG users off guard point blank.

Unless it's the Vector or you're further out than 35m, then you still get shitcanned.

[long pumice]

fair enough. though perhaps it would beat the EVO at its own game

(though in my opinion, the FAL already does that)

[blazing elm]

i think it's in a really good spot, but maybe the mag size could go up from 20 to 25, with the extended mag getting +5 too

[modest eagle]

It's in a really good spot

The spot: trash bin

[molten pike]

Unlocked the gun shit asf, mid range is barely doable because the gun is all over the place and cos of that you have barely any ammo left

[humble lark]

Oki is doing balancing now but still no news on val🥲

[elder prism]

if it was just a number tweaking I assume it would be included, since its not I'm assuming he's gotta do a little bit of work to try the tracer tweak

tbh I was trying the val yesterday, it aint great but smg range was doing some work, biggest limitation was the capacity, if I didn't hit with the first few rounds I just slipped back into cover rather than finishing the burst because I knew I didn't have the bullets to kill the guy XD

[barren wind]

AS VAL and Groza should have their damage switched, one is a low velocity, high caliber, flesh tearing 9x39 and the other can be modelled after Groza-1 which fire 762x39.

[long pumice]

Realism is very much a secondary consideration for gun balance

[barren wind]

Fair enough, I I'm only irked that the Groza is overperforming. Then I propose that the Groza damage be brought down to 28-30 and then make it an easier to control Honey Badger.

[long pumice]

That wouldn’t make it anything like the honey badger, it would just make it weak

[blazing elm]

34 damage as val at 900rpm would be fuckin nasty

[barren wind]

I just checked, ye, I forgot the 9x39 has much less energy than 50. Beo. But it has 800 rpm which is basically honey badger rpm. I rectified my suggestion to reduce the damage and recoil.

sure, im fine with it being a honey badger clone, lets close this thread then /s

[dark torrent]

Would still be essentially the same vs anyone with armor as is now though, so it's far smaller of a change than it seems (except vs enemies without armor ofc)

Also, Val is 800 rpm in game

[inner roost]

buff ASVAL range, carbines range should be better than SMGs

[sonic narwhal]

@stuck elbow i saw you are getting a AS VAL skin for twitch rivals. what are your thoughts on the gun?

[subtle jasper]

new twitch drop skin so clean, as val still ass tho

so much love for design

[sonic narwhal]

real

[hot bronze]

I agree, it's pretty but sadly it's not great

[glacial scaffold]

No damage is felt with this weapon. It needs to be reviewed.

[long pumice]

It has joint 3rd-4th fastest time to kill in the game

The problem is low velocity + really high recoil + strong damage drop off

Makes it hard to actually use it

[hot bronze]

exactly, I think recoil buff would make this gun balanced

[blazing elm]

as val have 600 sound spread, that don't makes sense the weapon have a supressor as a barrel

[ember trout]

way too hard recoil for this pea shooter

[glacial scaffold]

It does not seem. At least not for me. I feel like I get more kills with the M4 than with this weapon.

But maybe it's just my idea.

[molten pike]

To counter this gun, you just have to move

[sonic narwhal]

i havent unlocked everything on it but it feels like those cartoons where they shoot a cutout of the person. sound def needs to be fixed and recoil reductions. kicks harder than a LMG

[blazing elm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEEpjES6mW4

ok now I understand why this weapon is so bad right now

deserved nerf but too much making the weapon underperform right now

[hot bronze]

Oki overnerfed this gun

this gun needs a recoil buff

increasing the dmg would make the gun broken again

[young vortex]

Recoil and sound are whack on this thing

[inner roost]

there's no point using this gun & unlock it

[fringe oar]

So even with the nerfs I would play this gun, but you had to remove the PK AS scope from it too. Please, pretty please show this gun some love.

[humble lark]

Finally, some buffs

[molten pike]

Yeeaaaaaaaa

[hot bronze]

Finally xD

[modest eagle]

About time

[elder prism]

aw I was hoping for no tracers but this works I guess

[loud shore]

With the buff and honey badger buff. Both gun feel pretty similar to each other. Like a side version of each other

[ember trout]

but the patch hasnt deployed yet?

[loud shore]

Yes but you can calculate the stats and ttk

[elder prism]

ah yes, the ole "I haven't tried it but speculative math adds up"

[long pumice]

Is it really speculative if it works in exactly the same way as it does in game

[paper phoenix]

This "speculative math" you are talking about is basically 90% of weapon balancing in any game

[elder prism]

I somehow doubt that 90% of weapon balance in any game is guessing shit based on partial patch notes on a test environment you couldn't be bothered to log into

[long pumice]

The patch notes should be complete as far as gun balance changes go.

[subtle jasper]

WE MADE IT

As Val

Horizontal recoil lowered, from 1.9 to 1.2.
Accuracy increased, from 68.75 to 75.
Sound spread lowered, from 600 to 200.
Control lowered, from 0.86 to 0.8.
Reload time increased, from 3 seconds to 3.33 seconds.
Damage fall-off starting distance increased, from 20m to 40m.

[elder prism]

I was hoping to the tracer change but i'll take it xd

[molten pike]

Finally usable and less frustrating weapon

[modest eagle]

Still not exactly a good gun, but at least it doesn't make me want to cry anymore

[rustic fox]

why not exactly good? you wanna make it overpowered?

[modest eagle]

That is clearly exactly what I said

[loud shore]

To me as Val is side version of Honey Badger. Maybe a bit weaker

[modest eagle]

HB now is the bomb, Val offers very marginal improvements with a lot more recoil.
HB is the way to go for pre-silenced guns.

[loud shore]

yeah HB have less recoil with same kill range. Val only have better TTK when it come to heavy armor. But lose to HB with any other type of armor.

[long pumice]

Interesting, while I haven’t actually used the guns since the buff I expected the recoil on both to be about the same now

As Val does just have the better ttk of the two now, though

[modest eagle]

Correct.

I think the VAL is still a very barely mediocre gun, just not as absolutely dreadful as it was before.

HB is a blast instead

[loud shore]

only on heavy armor, on no armor light normal or exo HB have faster TTK

even though HB damage nerf from 32 to 28 but it still 4 BTK so with fire rate buff it actually have faster TTK

[long pumice]

I don’t bother tracking it for each individual armour type (pointless) but I can say against a realistic distribution of armour the As Val will kill around 14ms faster on average.

[long pumice]

Thanks to the existence of headshots, the average ttk is actually slightly slower than it used to be against unarmored enemies as well, it seems. Went from 193ms to 199ms.

[willow hemlock]

I think if you want to keep the asval as a 20 rnd gun you should reduce the bullet spread when spraying so you can actually kill more than 1 person per magazine at medium range

[elder prism]

why

[blazing elm]

I want VSS Vintorez

[paper phoenix]

Basically Val with Clean skin and 4x scope

[modest eagle]

That'd mostly bring it in line with most other guns, which would be just fine

[mystic gate]

i feel like the range dropoff nerf was unnecessary. the recoil buffs only brought the gun inline with other guns of similar stat spreads, the range nerf on top neuters the effect the recoil buffs have dumbass idiot stupidface

[clear tartan]

but it didn't get range nerfed? it got buffed, from 20 to 40m

[mystic gate]

... my reading comprehension skills are nonexistant

[clear tartan]

same dude same

[sonic narwhal]

agreed just tried it after the update and it still feels pretty bad for a 20rnd gun

[versed heath]

I mean its pretty good if you can get your shots in

[willow hemlock]

45 rnd mags when 👀

[clear tartan]

as val is goated

[marsh bear]

i like it as is. the recoil and low ammo capacity are pretty punishing, but it feels great when you get the hang of it

[versed heath]

I wouldnt say its goated but but once you get used to it its pretty good

[sonic narwhal]

i just think it needs a little less hori recoil and less penalties for 30rnd mag

[versed heath]

Agreed for the 30 round mag

not the base gun though

[long pumice]

I think the recoil is alright

[modest eagle]

After clocking in 1500 kills with the AS VAL, I'm not sure why I should pick it over basically any other weapon except for the fact that it looks cool.

[willow hemlock]

Val is only a fun gun in battlebit for it's nostalgia feel it's not an ideal pick

https://youtu.be/jn0GaifbrXM

this is how the val should function

next to no recoil high fire rate and quick reload

[sonic narwhal]

hopefully the attachment rework brings this gun to a more usable state with a 30 mag

[modest eagle]

If the gun had a 30-rounder with it's current base recoil it'd be a quasi-viable pick.

Right now, if I want to play a silenced weapon my go tos are the HB, the AUG, the UMP and the Groza.

The advantages the AS VAL has in close range aren't worth trading off everything else.

[sonic narwhal]

agreed

[modest eagle]

The gun does kick a lot for something that fires a subsonic cartridge and that is VERY front-heavy...

I'd also love for the devs to get rid of the tracers on silenced weapons, but eh.

Currently. sporting a silencer is more of a hindrance than anything. I use them because they are cool, but there's no significant benefit in using them and you tend to gimp yourself.

[clear tartan]

it isn't weak at all, you just need to know how to play to its strengths, which addmittedly can be difficult

[modest eagle]

Its strength is a rather swift short-range TTK.
Which, however, is only very marginally better than, say, the HB, which sports much better handling and a bigger mag.
The VAL outperforms it at range, but at that range it’s pretty hard to consistently land shots.
Like, it has some (1) strength, but it doesn’t mean it’s good.
It means it’s not entirely useless.

I’m currently working my way to 1500 kills with the UMP, with a silencer, and I still haven’t found a situation where I told myself “wow, I wish I had the AS VAL right now”.

[clear tartan]

i prefer it over the hb rn because it's better against armor even tho ttk is worse and vibes also reload is faster
and it holds me back so don't just run in and die because of over confidence

[modest eagle]

As a matter of preference, I also prefer running the AS VAL over the HB, despite the HB having basically all the advantages.
I just don’t think it has any redeeming qualities to be picked on a purely practical standpoint, over basically any other weapon that performs a similar task.

[clear tartan]

groza was already bad but now we got an even better version of that crutch 💀
i'd say bring the damage back to 32-33 and increase the firerate to 700rpm, maybe increase recoil but do smth to the groza aswell, fuck that piece of crap

[clear tartan]

ye, both ooze swag, they're increadibly drippy but the val feels better to use for me personaly but i prestiged so mp7, then maybe vector if i'm feeling spicy

[versed heath]

Bro they say the mp7 is op when you have things that literally take 0 seconds to kill you

[clear tartan]

the as val kills slower than the mp7

[paper phoenix]

Val is balanced, MP7 is extremly good

simple as

[clear tartan]

ye

[versed heath]

I wouldn't say the mp7 is extremely good,definitely really good tho

I use the mp7 and even at cqc sometime i get beat by kriss vectors and mp5s

[clear tartan]

yeah suprise mp7 has a faster ttk and ads time than both of those guns

[versed heath]

Idk I'd say post nerf kriss and mp5 and mp7,since all of their min ranges got nerfed they are about the same

[clear tartan]

no they aren't
but i don't want to argue about that crap rn so whatever

[versed heath]

They are

[pallid marsh]

30rd default mag 🙏🏼

[long pumice]

ermmmm

(armoured/unarmoured)

I think the As Val kills faster overall

[mystic gate]

just gonna throw this out there; still feels a bit on the crappy side at 32 damage instead of 33

[clear tartan]

*more consistent against armor
i was talking about raw ttk, not your overblown nerd stuff...

[long pumice]

4ms faster raw ttk 💪😎🔥
49ms slower actual ttk 🥱🤓 😴

[paper phoenix]

WTF are those ttk's

Val definitely isn't as fast as this shows

[delicate herald]

yeah im pretty sure it's outdated. as val is 0.225 against both unarmored and armored iirc

and MP7 is 0.253 against light and medium armor

[clear tartan]

hs, armor shots, all that goofy bs is factored in by him making him the most accurate to the game by virtue of complexity (he doesn't realize ttk is a general indicator to go of of, not a realistic stat)

[paper phoenix]

Seems right

I had big wtf moment when I saw Val with ~190 ttk

[long pumice]

what's the point of having a stat that isn't realistic?

I would much rather actually know how good the guns are

[clear tartan]

because it really isn't a stat, it's a baseline, if you want to use it as a stat with an overcomplicated backround do that, but don't pretend anyone else uses that or has to use it as that
just let us others use it as a baseline and go from there on out

[long pumice]

a baseline for what?

if it doesn't apply to the game it's inaccurate at best, outright misleading at worst

[paper phoenix]

Then simply baseline ttk is much more realostic stat. All other things are too situational, and you just can't measure how fast weapon kills in every situation on average

But you can know that Val takes 225ms and 3 bullets to kill with no armour, and that's set in stone

[long pumice]

mm... yes you can

or at least, you can get as close to an accurate measure as is practical

much closer than "baseline ttk" is easy at least

[mystic gate]

the fuck is going on here

[long pumice]

a perfect ttk measure would consider every possible scenario and weight them for how likely they are to occur, which is a very simple concept

actually getting to that is the hard part

[sullen chasm]

played a bit with this weapon (never touched it before)
my impressions:

• damach is good (obviously)
• recoil is meh but the real issue is the mag size. Val should probably win an award for having the most greedy mag size for that RF. and extended gives you quite significant recoil penalties and also makes reload time very bad.

[long pumice]

Damage is good, mag size is poor, reload time is decent, run speed is good, recoil is quite high, damage dropoff is quite poor

[versed heath]

I'd say the damage drop off is ok as it is but buff to mag size to like 25 OR improve the recoil

[clear tartan]

improve recoil and buff extended mag, pls don't put more bullets in my 20rnd mag

[pallid marsh]

30 round default mag now 😡🫵

[clear tartan]

now that's smth i can get behind
20rnd short mag, 20rnd quick mag, 30rnd normal mag and 30rnd quick mag

[bold tide]

Mags need to be revisited, similar to HB.

[bleak tree]

Honey badger just does everything the asval does, but better in almost every way tbh

[clear tartan]

reload, armor, swag...

[gusty remnant]

Lower the vertical recoil, it's kinda decent with flir atm. I think it needs to excel in medium range combat.

I'd also give it a bipod so it's a more versatile carbine.

[clear tartan]

[long pumice]

WE NEED AS VAL BIPOD NOW!!!!

[clear tartan]

idk why you'd use the gun on medium range with a scope to begin with, it is very clearly a short range weapon

[terse storm]

People want the VSS

[clear tartan]

[paper phoenix]

just use Klean's skin

[clear tartan]

idk if i've gone completely insane but extended mag + b urk actually kinda slaps

[blazing elm]

Heresy!

[paper phoenix]

Yes, you are going insane. The downsides of a extended mag aren't worth those more bullets.
The math just doesn't adds up

[clear tartan]

it is on the val

[clear tartan]

i got some multikills man 😩

[pallid marsh]

Give recoil buffs+ better mags

[marble token]

Love this gun cause it basically wins close range 1v1 (with controllable recoil unlike the scorpion) but that's its only use case to me

In bf3 it had something unique with the lower first shot multiplier, making it good for bursting at medium range despite the lower bullet velocity

Could be fun to see here too?

[distant breach]

The small mag is the main issue for me with as val. But I feel like giving it a try again

[paper phoenix]

AS VAL needs some small buff

It kind of falled off after recent changes

like, reduced vertical recoil or sth

[clear tartan]

it's at least average 😡

[paper phoenix]

It's small

Belov average

[marble token]

I like it being more niche. But I am hoping for some sort of recoil buff

[clear tartan]

but

[spare vector]

still rather use the 419 for better stability overall, lowered recoil would defo make up for the lesser ammo and be more satisfying for use

[clear tartan]

huh what better recoil, also movement and reload speed and damage

[marble token]

I'm hoping for that natural lower first shot recoil multiplier 😔 🙏

I'll have to try the hk419 to see what's up with it tho. I haven't yet

[distant breach]

I've been rolling suppressed famas and it's fun. Just want more damage and a suppressed gun. But as val 20 mag is so small

But I guess small mag is trade off for mobility and good 32dmg 800 rof

[marble token]

not feeling it vs the as val after trying it for a few hours
it feels inconsistent and the recoil is even crazier

[distant breach]

went 69-24 with AsVal as my first highest kills =x. popping off with just urk is nuts

[marble token]

I really enjoy it reloading aside

[distant breach]

Recoil surprisingly wasn't too bad, but quick mag adding some recoil sucks. It needs the quick reload and urk unless you play assault

[glass flame]

Extended mag = +0.3 Hrecoil 💀

[distant breach]

Atm, urk/quick puts v/h recoil to like 1.4/1.2.

I find it weird that the sound profile of as val vs other long suppressor guns sound different. AsVal is a lot more quiet

[marble token]

I finally get it... since I can change the barrel I got the hk419 to the lowest first shot recoil and it's a beast up close and mid range

As val does feel more reliable up close especially against exo which makes sense to me

[distant breach]

I got to give hk419 a try since short suppressor and SE5 gives the same recoil as As Val. But slow reload and movespeed sucks too

I like my suppressor

[marble token]

Yes on the movespeed. But I felt the time spent reloading was lesser on the hk419

[distant breach]

Hk is like ~4sec and quick mag val with urk is 2.5

[marble token]

Warning tho. Without attachments the 419 got crazier recoil you'll feel it

[distant breach]

Definitely.

I did a small sheet on recoil stats.

Tactical and urk is best

[marble token]

The asval feels more controllable from the get go but you can only improve the recoil with the grips

It's why im hoping it gets some sort of natural first shot recoil buff at some point. Think it'd really benefit it with bursting and aleviate the ammo situation somewhat

I had it at x0.67 on the 419 I think and it's insane

Lotta bursting

[distant breach]

Val would be nice without the recoil penalty for quick mag.

1.4v/1.12h recoil goes to 1.45/1.2 with quick mag. Messes with a bit more range

[marble token]

I loved bad company 2 and bf3 as val being a mini dmr...

Even with the slow bullets I like tracking with them

[distant breach]

Is that the vintorez or something like that

[marble token]

Ye the bad company vintorez

Guess it's technically a weapom based off the as val but to me they behaved about the same

Well in the way I used it. Bursting for long range

Bf3 real as val did have higher firerate

Bf3 let you put a sniper scope on anything primary

Which I really enjoyed. As val with sniper scope on a long corridor was crazy

[distant breach]

Only fix I want is no recoil penalty on quick mag for as val and it would be better.

[distant breach]

I was just thinking, why can't as val be 34 damage considering its limitation (fairly high ish recoil, small mag).

[marble token]

Im guessing it's because it already wrecks

It fires fast but you take 1 less bullet against normal armor compared to the 419

[clear tartan]

150ms ttk, was like that before and that's how we ended up with both the hb and val dead on the floor

[marble token]

so jover

was the as val nerfed at some point?

I only got into this game a month ago

[clear tartan]

during play tests it was busted af (1.6 horizontal recoil but 3sk at 800rpm) then it got bonked down to 20m fall off, 4sk and 1.9 horizontal recoil
then it got made usable again, about 2 months ago

[marble token]

I chee

don't think it needs to be 3sk it's already pretty quick and consistent at 4sk

[distant breach]

33 dmg, not 34 😏

[marble token]

not sure if that'd break any threshold

[distant breach]

It doesn't lol.

[marble token]

guess it'd help with range a little bit?

[distant breach]

Yeah 🤫

[long pumice]

Yeah, it does

I can’t tell you what threshold it is as I don’t have a list of all of them, but it does make a difference in some situations

(On unharmed enemies)

[long pumice]

Also then realised that this response is dumb, since I did not pay enough attention to context or indeed the actual numbers

[distant breach]

Breakpoints are 25 (unarmored, 100hp), 32 (normal armor, 125hp), 42 heavy armor, 143hp)/(exo armor, 162hp)

33 just pushes out the range a bit 😓

I just want quick mag to have no recoil penalty on AsVal. H recoil would be nicer

[marble token]

heavy armor seems to be 43?

[distant breach]

143 for heavy and 162 for exo

[marble token]

Wouldnt 25 be the breakpoint for no armor 4 shot

[distant breach]

Ur right.

I was just thinking of old famas

[bleak tree]

for some reason i perform better with extendo mag over quick mag despite the stat nerfs. 20 feels mildly inconsistent in my hands

[distant breach]

I was just frantically reloading and got like two - 6x kill streaks yesterday. Best play I've made.