#KRISS VECTOR TOO OP

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

gaunt cosmos
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Always felt like this gun shredded, but wanted to first unlock it before saying anything. Yes it shreds, too much. It's just so good with only downside, long range and lack of magazines. It's way too good thanks to its high ROF/DMG/MVMT SPD

cinder dust
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The community is aware.

latent valley
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There are more pressing issues atm

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But its probably gonna get nerfed into the ground when EA hits

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or have its fire mode completely revamped

gaunt cosmos
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Oh alright

gaunt cosmos
brave moss
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That is the main downside that you keep in mind when you reload. I think it's fine and don't find it abused by players. Not as popular as it seems

gaunt cosmos
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Really? Im surprised

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You can easily get 4k per mag thats the thing

latent valley
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Fal, Honey Badger, As Val are also really good.

cinder dust
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Its as popular as it seems based on the region you play. NA? Vector in everyones hands. and lots of smelly tryhards. EU? Eh its more Val, Vector, SMG mixture.

gaunt cosmos
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Havent unlocked the 2 last yet haha

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Im in EU

latent valley
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Even Heavy Barrel AK

gaunt cosmos
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I havent encountered lots of Kriss, but when i meet a player with one he always dominates

strong bobcat
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vector OP
dont patch

gaunt cosmos
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hahaha it quickly became my main aswell

cold radish
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kriss vector not even the strongest weapon 💀

strong bobcat
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^

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other guns really just need a buff

wide merlin
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legit the starter ak is the best gun

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vector aint even that op u just run fast and shoot faster

loud trellis
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Not op, it's farly balanced for what it is

gaunt cosmos
cold radish
lunar wagon
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kriss is fine up close; just needs a dropoff nerf cause recoil is too easy to beam at range

neon patrol
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vector is weak as fuck

lunar wagon
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hell naw

buoyant portal
neon patrol
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yeah i agree that it's pretty op long range but it's absolutely trash in close range combat, weak af

buoyant portal
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it should be OP at close ranges but hey, at least we have a working DMR lmao

ebon snow
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Meanwhile As Val/Honey Badger with even lower TTK.

glass remnant
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I think the issue with the Vector is that it does too much damage per shot. Hell, when you compare it with the PP2000, Kriss Vector does more damage AND has a higher rate of fire. That's a little excessive, especially since Kriss Vector can also equip both a barrel attachment and an underbarrel attachment. PP-2000 doesn't have the option to equip barrel nor underbarrel, which probably should change. Vector is basically an upgraded PP2000 as of now.

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I think Vector should have slightly lower damage than PP2000, but have higher RPM and thus a higher TTK, but PP2000 should have higher damage per bullet and probably better range or something else to make it a more interesting option.

deft spire
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I think the accuracy of vector should be nerfed, so it can still be powerful in CQB as it should be, but not good for big maps. About the accuracy, devs can infer the btr-80, like pissing.

dry plume
ebon snow
twilit tartan
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Vector is my real Tommy Gun.

terse vine
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Based on TTK, the vector isnt that OP. Its the 3rd or 4th best SMG based on Time to Kill metrics

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Val, Honey, MP7 are better SMGs

glass remnant
terse vine
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40 or 45 rounds

sweet patio
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Yeah large magazine size

terse vine
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TTK based on range

TTK_based_on_Range.png
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val,honey are at .15 of a second. mp7 is .19 as the vector is .2

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TTK based on wearing armor or not

No_barrel_Attachments.png
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Now you see the difference in the 4 guns the vector does the best against armor. Maybe this is where the perception is coming from

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The difference is small 2.65 to 78.9 Milli seconds difference

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Anything over 80m the ak74 and FAL beats them all

dry plume
lunar wagon
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honestly increasing val/hb damage dropoff from ~70m to around 50 would put them in a much more interesting place

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as stands there's very little reason to pick similar-spec AR's because val/hb is still under .3ttk till ~100m

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think the damage dropoff needs tuning as a whole, but those two guns definitely stand out. Especially with them being suppressed, you should have to make more of a tradeoff between dmg and range

terse vine
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That's a different discussion I agree with. What's the avg engagement and the effective range of gun layout based on that

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If it's 50m SMG might need to take damage hit after 30m instead of 80.

quiet veldt
lofty ridge
lunar wagon
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Yeah exactly; making that drop off earlier and more aggressive would put them into a more specific niche rather than allowing them to contest and often outperform AR's

kindred sable
# lunar wagon Yeah exactly; making that drop off earlier and more aggressive would put them in...

I feel the base damage might be too high as well, the thing has the fastest firerate in the game, and its out classing the other SMGs and a chunk of ARs. At 90m (before its drop off) it has a faster TTK than all but the AK74 Heavy Barrel, the FAL, the L86 Heavy/Long Barrel. At 30m it is only outgunned by AK74 L/H, FAL, FAMAS H (tied), HK419 H, MP7, HoneyBadger, ASVAL, L86A1 H/L.

Damage drop off helps for distance, but the fire rate, control, accuracy, mag size, and base damage, all make it an ungodly combo. hell I have sniped snipers 100s of meters away with a vector, I've cleared many groups before they could react because it shoots so damn fast.

cinder ibex
ebon snow
kindred sable
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Testing around with some base damage change, if we drop it down to 19 damage from 24 brings the TTK to 0.25, which would put it behind
AK15
AK74 (H/L)
G36C
SCAR-H
AUGA3 (H)
FAL
FAMAS (H)
HK419 (H)
MP7
MP5
PP19
HoneyBadger
P90
ASVAL
L86A1

It would be faster than
ACR
AK74 (non H/L)
M4A1
AUGA3 (L and non L)
FAMAS (L and non L)
HK419 (L and non L)
SG550
PP2000
UMP45
GROZA
M249
All handguns

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This new TTK would put it anywhere from 0.02s faster (excluding the AUG), to 0.10 slower

This is down from 0.07s faster and 0.05 slower

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VS M4A1, you are 0.01s faster
vs SCAR-H, you are 0.01s slower
VS FAMAS, you are 0.02s faster
vs FAL you are 0.08s slower
vs ASVAL you are 0.10s slower
vs AK47 you are 0.02s faster

Outside the few power weapons that have sub 0.20s TTK, it would land right with the others. Would that make a difference? Well going from 5 to 6 bullets to kill might not, but it might. It depends on the player. Paper stats are just paper stats.

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Ammo count might have to be played with to tune it better, 40rds stock might be too much

zealous axle
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Changing magazine size to 25/30 would be nice

strong bobcat
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vector with ext mag has 60 rounds ffs

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(coming from a user with over 10k vector kills)

zealous axle
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So what needs to be nerfed?

lofty ridge
zealous axle
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It does have sens

kindred sable
# zealous axle So what needs to be nerfed?

There are 2 things that can be changed fairly quick. Drop the damage from 24 down to 19, which drops the TTK from 0.20 to 0.25. This compounds over distance. It sounds really bad but its just 6 bullets instead of 5. Then we pull back the damage dropoff from 90m to 50m. This will stay in line with the SMGs role.

These 2 changes slow the gun down to be inline with most TTKs across the board and pulls back the long range ability of the weapon.

strong bobcat
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tbh the vector is one of the more true SMG in the game
other SMG's dont even compare to a glock ffs
wouldnt say it needs a nerf
but other guns just need a buff overall

lofty ridge
strong bobcat
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i mean the ASVAL, honey badger, MP7 (depending on who you shoot)
is actually better than the vector

kindred sable
strong bobcat
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then again
most people dont know you can change armor

kindred sable
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Tied with
AK74
FAMAS
HK419
PP2000

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Armor doesnt matter, it was changed to just be extra health.

strong bobcat
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i know i was there for the testing of that

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and armor does matter lol

kindred sable
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armor doesnt matter for TTK for weapon balance if all weapons deal the same damage to armor

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armor stats matter when it comes to an issue with armor itself

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we cant balance a weapon around any armor because it changes the TTK with each armor type, so you balance it around no armor and then balance the armor based on all weapon TTKs

brave canyon
kindred sable
brave canyon
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Mf how many hours do you have in bbr

kindred sable
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80

brave canyon
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Lmao

strong bobcat
kindred sable
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So my opinion doesnt matter because I have less playtime than you?

brave canyon
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Yes

kindred sable
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How so?

brave canyon
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Cuz we have more time to test shit

kindred sable
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And that renders my opinion invaild how?

brave canyon
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It just does

kindred sable
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How?

brave canyon
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You have 0 evidence

kindred sable
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O evidence of what? I didn't realize this was a trial.

brave canyon
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💀

umbral pivot
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my main question is how do you have 80 hours and not understand how the armor system works?

brave canyon
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Ong

kindred sable
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What am I not understanding? That armor applies a "shield" style layer to the covered areas, that prevents health damage till the "shield" has been drained of its "health". And that there are multiple types of armor that all have different amounts of "health". And that none of that matters when it comes to balancing a single weapon, since all the guns work the same way when interacting with armor.

loud trellis
kindred sable
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But how does armor matter when we are talking about balancing the vector?

strong bobcat
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i mean your talking to the people who reported the first armor issue...

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mainly @loud trellis

loud trellis
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2, the vector is balanced

kindred sable
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My understanding is that armor is armor and there is no difference when it comes to what gun is shot at the armor.

loud trellis
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example:
a 12hp vest increases the ttk of the heavy barrel ak74, but not of the ak15

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boom

kindred sable
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What I read on the update notes indicated that was removed.

loud trellis
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??

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Armor damage was removed, but not how armor itself works

strong bobcat
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dont forget oki first language isnt english so he may word things wrong

loud trellis
strong bobcat
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yep!

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heres what hes talking about btw

lofty ridge
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Armor damage was removed, but you still have health thresholds that affect a weapons ttk against a particular armor

loud trellis
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To make it more simple:
The lower the weapon's damage, the easier it is for said weapon to be affected by armor

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so the vector is easily affected cuz the breakpoints are super low

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but the ak15, for example, needs at least 20 armor, and then an extra 40 to be affected by it

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I think it's pointless to even argue about how this affect the vector cuz the title of this thread is already ridiculous

kindred sable
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I think we might be confusing each other, breakpoints sound like staged health.

Unless by breakpoints you mean staged damage reduction where X-Y % is doing X% reduction.

loud trellis
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if you need 3, 40 damage shots to kill a target, how much damage will you do over 100?

kindred sable
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20 over

loud trellis
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so how much more armor do you need to protect you?

kindred sable
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21 min

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Wait, are you refering to breakpoint as in when the armor breaks?

loud trellis
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now, what about a weapon that shoots marginally faster (faster ttk) but deals 34 damage, how many shots do you need to kill and how much damage over 100 do you do?

lofty ridge
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whoa Naro that's a lot of math

kindred sable
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it is when your super stoned

loud trellis
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It's the same question and the same math

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basic multiplication

kindred sable
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its 4 shots

loud trellis
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...

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I give up

kindred sable
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sorry 3 shots

loud trellis
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I'll go ahead and answer the second question:
You deal 102 damage, so you need only 3 armor to protect you and increase the ttk

kindred sable
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your doing 102 damage, which gives you an over of 2, but if you had 21 armor, you would need 4 shots to kill.

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Yes, armor increases the TTK

loud trellis
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which means that the weapon that shoots slower will be stronger than the weapon that shoots faster if the target has anywhere from 3 to 20 armor

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That's how breakpoints work.
You increase the breakpoint of the weapon with lower ttk, but the weapon with higher ttk remains unaffected until the armor is strong enough

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That's how armor shifts the balance

solid nacelle
strong bobcat
brave canyon
loud trellis
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These GIFs are surely helpful

strong bobcat
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not the best at explaining so i brought naro who knows the math deep down lol

solid nacelle
brave canyon
solid nacelle
strong bobcat
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ok lets put this back on track now

kindred sable
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2 questions

Does the armor always take 100% damage?

Does the armor discard any damage past 100% of its health?

loud trellis
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It will block 100% of the damage and "bleed" any extra damage to the player's hp pool

kindred sable
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Then we can discard armor for TTK as it is not directly modifying the damage output of the weapon. We can take armor into account when asking the question "is this enough or too much armor"

loud trellis
steady thicket
kindred sable
#

So we just spent who knows how long because we have different terms for things, to agree that armor has no role in this TTK balance

loud trellis
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Different armors will affect the weapons differently, but the balance part of it is the movement speed.
How much more can you survive against the enemies' weapons.

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Idk why you're talking about balancing the Vector's ttk though

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it's fine where it is

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and it's very sensitive to armor

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due to the lower damage

loud trellis
oblique sparrow
loud trellis
strong bobcat
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no hate towards anyone

kindred sable
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But since armor equally effects all weapons, the TTK is just modified by however much armor there is, so both low damage and high damage weapons are affected equally in terms of total damage to kill. Which TTK is just a measure of how long it takes to reach that threshold. Some weapons might need more rounds to kill than others, but that is the same result as if we just called armor "health". More does mean weaker weapons take more time. So unless we want to scrap all balance based on raw data and move to TTKs based on armor types, it makes no sense to add armor into the question.

loud trellis
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dude

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I just explained

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how different weapons with different killing breakpoints are affected

oblique sparrow
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my alter ego slipped out soz

loud trellis
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both the ak74 with heavy barrel and the ak15 kill with 3 shots.
The ak74 shoots significantly faster, but it kills the target with BARELY any overhead damage, so if you have just a lick of armor, you effectively increase the 74's ttk by 50 fucking percent, but that same amount of armor will do JACK SHIT against the ak15

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it's not that hard to understand

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and again

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it's pointless

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same thing applies to the m4 vs the ak74

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m4 kills with 4 shots, but it really just need a tiny bit of damage to kill on the last shot, giving it a LOT of overhead damage which the 12hp armor can't protect you against, so if you shot someone with said armor, the m4 kills faster than the ak74

spare rapids
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but it doesn't, so just shoot their toes and avoid getting thresholded

lofty ridge
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There he is

loud trellis
lofty ridge
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was waiting for Bon to show up

spare rapids
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lol

lofty ridge
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To Bon's point, if we completely ignore armor then the Vector isn't even the strongest Gun/SMG

loud trellis
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I, too, agree that armor coverage and no limb damage multiplier make said armor barely useful, especially when the player character walks with their giant, blocky hands in front of the plate, rendering it useless.

lofty ridge
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Only useful if someone shoots you from behind really

spare rapids
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the TTKs are so low in this game you couldn't turn around and kill them with human reaction time

loud trellis
spare rapids
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the Vector specifically doesn't change its shots to kill vs Light armor or vs Normal helmets, it's got a nice niche

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nothing competes with the Honey Badger and AS Val since they basically get two barrel attachments for free (Heavy Barrel + Suppressor) without any downsides

kindred sable
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In terms of raw TTK, its matched with the L86 last I checked, but ya the free heavy and suppressor is untouchable

spare rapids
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excluding those weapons, the Vector probably deserves a nerf due to its general ease of use from low recoil and mag size

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Vector has better kills per mag than the M4

loud trellis
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L86 is full of downsides

spare rapids
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L86 is 77ms, Honey Badger / AS Val are 75ms

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but with how the game works they're probably identical in practice because bullets are fired on frames

kindred sable
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Someone correct me if I am wrong, but using the AK74 vs the Vector, with an armor of +43 health, wouldn't the vector fair much better than the AK, like 50% better against armor.
(AK74 40 damage, 540 RoF. Vector 24 damage, 1200 RoF)

spare rapids
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a Heavy AK74 would do 36.3 damage, do you mean the AK15?

kindred sable
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base, no mods

spare rapids
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then the 74 would do 33

lofty ridge
spare rapids
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they fixed having lower rate of fire if your FPS is low or not a multiple of your gun's bullets per second

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but bullets still fire on frames

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now, sometimes two bullets fire on the same frame to fix it

lofty ridge
#

MrOkiDoki
• Firerate would be affected by framerate fixed. (This was already fixed 2 years ago but apparently I fucked it up some point)

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this?

spare rapids
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yeah

kindred sable
spare rapids
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in that case i question why anyone would want to use heavy armor

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you can see here that the Vector has a lower TTK than the AK15 vs Normal, Heavy and Exo armors

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when the AK15 has a stock barrel

kindred sable
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Redoing my math, the Vector still is less affected by the armor at 25% vs 33% higher TTK

spare rapids
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but realistically the AK15 would have at least a Long barrel

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the Vector still beats the AK15 vs Heavy and Exo armors, but just shoot their limbs instead

kindred sable
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Why the long over the heavy for the AK74? The heavy adds 3.3 damage, the long adds 1.65

spare rapids
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because Long is all you need for the threshold

lofty ridge
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he said "at least"

spare rapids
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i would not use Heavy

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Normal helmet threshold is 112

lofty ridge
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Heavy Barrel helps the AK against Heavy armor though xD

kindred sable
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so armor roughly makes the AK with long 100% higher TTK (roughly)

spare rapids
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actually i think i'm wrong

kindred sable
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which brings us back to whomever said that weaker faster weapons are more affected by armor, which is wrong, the slower powerful weapons are greatly affected by armor, which is another mark against the vector for being unbalanced, even more so with the 90m damage drop off

spare rapids
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AK15 Long barrel reduces STK by 1 vs Normal Armor and Heavy Helmets

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AK15 Heavy barrel still does not give you any better thresholds than Long

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but you don't need to use a damage barrel on the AK15, i'd probably use a Flash Suppressor, not Long barrel

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nobody is going to use Heavy helmets

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the AK15, FAL, and SCAR are head hunter guns, aim for the head

kindred sable
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mis read that as EXO helm

spare rapids
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especially in that case, the support is going to still be running to the next point when the fight ends

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gotta go fast, which is why i recommend the FAL over the AK15

kindred sable
terse vine
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TTK should be low, long TTKs is what make Call of duty so shit imo. The TTKs are in a good range atm.. 10 to 15 bullets on avg to kill someone

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damage drop off makes the most sense to me.. after 30m or so

lofty ridge
loud trellis
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I don't remember ever killing more than 5 per mag.

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I usually kill 3 if I don't just spray at distance

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If I get the timings right, I can kill 4 and sometimes 5, but it's super tight

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So an average of 10 to 15 sounds fair

kindred sable
loud trellis
kindred sable
loud trellis
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Nobody will time their shots accurately 100% of the time and hit all of them

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who will use a Vector and always shoot exactly 5 times at a target?

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Nobody, cuz you shoot until you process the feedback that the person is dead

kindred sable
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All I am saying is that you can not justify a weapon based on a players ability to hit the target.

loud trellis
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You can when it's realistic

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a weapon that shoots faster, wastes more bullets, that's a fact

kindred sable
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Yes, that is a fact

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but the worst weapons can be made into god tier in the hands of really good players, so whos accuracy and stats do we base things off of? This enters a cycle where the top 1% players and the "casual" players fight about balance because one group is too OP. The vector has surpassed any idea that you need skill to make it top tier, it is a weapon that anyone can pick up and be good with instantly.

zealous axle
loud trellis
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cuz you're implying a "god tier player" will surely make use of all 40 bullets on the mag consistently, that would imply a 100% accuracy.
I'm asking for a 50% accuracy, the equivalent of 20 bullets or 4 kills per mag (10 bullets per kill)

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And no, not anyone can be God tier with the Vector. It's simply a forgiving weapon cuz the ttk is on the low side and it has a lot of bullets, so the skill floor is high, but the ceiling is even higher

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Unlike the Asval and Honey Badger that just give free kills to anyone

zealous axle
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I really like the fact that whenever two or more persons are discussing balance of any weapon, Badger or Val will always come in discussion, and always as a overpowered gun

kindred sable
# loud trellis As I said: show me anyone with higher than 50% accuracy and over 3k/d

I am in no way doubting your stats or skill, nor claiming anyone to be perfect. Accuracy tracking is worthless because unless you are 100% trying with every shot, it means fuck all. People mess around, spray mags at choppers or vehicles as they scream past them. They shoot at things to test their weapons mid game. You spray a mag at a corner to suppress a group while your team revives or reloads.

All I am saying is that in order to use anyone's personal accuracy as a measurement for a weapons performance, who's data are we using? It doesn't matter because accuracy is a subjective thing and without using a very large sample from across all skill levels in the playerbase, it has no merit here. If someone was to show up with an 80% accuracy rating, their feedback about killing targets would differ from most players. And that is why its subjective and is not a valid actor in the weapons ability to kill. If the broader playerbase reported in that they have a 5% accuracy with a weapon because the recoil was impossible (lets say misplaced decimal point), that would be a valid actor in a weapons ability to kill. But recoil is more of a fine balance tuning option, not big balance.

The Vector is one of the weapons in the game where the skill entry is very low, but it has a very high output for how easy it is to use. An average player can pick it up and instantly start racking up kills with little to no learning curve. There are other guns that need fixing just as much, but the vector being an earlier unlock makes it a bigger problem, and as the masses gain access to the ASVAL/HoneyBadger, they will shift towards them and they will be just as much if not more of a problem. Last playtest I saw both teams on multiple servers with mostly sub lvl 30.

urban niche
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i had a moment where 2 people in bushes had all the advantages on me on the D point in Isle, but just whipping my mouse in their general direction and spraying at their silhouettes with the Kriss left me with somewhere around half a mag and enough time to bandage and rush C afterwards

tiny escarp
#

The kriss vector is litterally a long range lasser beam i get constantly beamed from 30+ meters from this thing. With the games very limited drop off range for damage and hit boxes being as big as they are it is a laser beam, it feels like the best weapon in the game. It should not out gun a ar in its category. maybe im smoking but it FEELS INSANLEY TO STRONG!

pure schooner
strong bobcat
# pure schooner EA?

EA=Early access
that was made during the playtest phase (when the game was free to test)

pure schooner
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ohh i see

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oh i didnt realise that was from january lol

latent valley
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Ha

soft kiln
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taking into account all of the above, just fix Kriss or get other weapons

pastel breach
#

I can agree with this, I love this gun and I do main it from time to time. I started using the drum mag on it and boy let me tell you, this gun feels like a hummingbird on speed. I think it will be changed in time though, I would enjoy it while it lasts because they should 100% nerf it a little bit,

cedar bane
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It shouldnt have a drum mag

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Should be like other shooters, you get a crazy rof gun... but downside of not alot of ammo and small mag size

limpid junco
cedar bane
zealous axle
true wharf
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After seeing the reddit threads about this gun, it is slightly overtuned but the majority of other guns are just straight fucking trash. All attachments need balancing, more attachments for certain weapons are needed, make all reloads faster, decrease aimpunch, shift around some weapons to certain classes/all class, and lastly passive healing after bandaging to make everything other than Medic class 'viable'. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel, do what Battlefield 3/Hell Let Loose figured out and you can still have this great mix of Milsim and Arcade.

rare rain
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Most of the time I counter the vector with my PP19, I dont think its that OP as ppl think it is.

rotund dagger
#

How is it that after 5 months of development this hasn't been balanced yet...

near laurel
#

100%

dense matrix
dense matrix
north harbor
#

Alot of attachments needs balancing, alot of them are really terrible, a downgrade for some weapons

unique reef
#

suuuurely it will get nerfed soon

strong bobcat
rotund dagger
#

All the smgs should have base 2/3.0 horizontal recoil

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Atm they're better or just as good as ARs

formal tartan
#

Vector is fine, its just other weapons need buff

limpid badger
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I would reduce the base mag capacity to 30 and the drum mag to 45, reduced the damage to 23 and very slightly increase the horizontal recoil and buff the PP2000 with 24 damage and slightly reduced horizontal recoil and vertical to compete with the vector

rotund dagger
exotic tree
lunar wagon
#

vector ttk is fucking annoying

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superbullet syndrome every time

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which is fine. but 60rd drum too much

north harbor
#

Mfw stock vector in game has 40 bullets while irl it comes with 13 to 25 HyperXD

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Shit even 40rnd shld be the extended mag attachment

languid violet
silk river
#

Gotta agree, I do hope it gets nerfed possibly

north harbor
noble widget
#

I personally think people majorly exaggerate how good the Kriss vector is. It just isn’t remarkable. It’s solid for sure but the only scenario it’s particularly good in is close quarters when you’re ADSing in advance.

kindred pewter
noble widget
# kindred pewter it quite often absolutely shreds me in mid and close combat whilst im using the ...

I’d honestly attribute that to confirmation bias. Against an opponent with undamaged armour, the scar is, worst case scenario, equal to the Kriss vector in ttk. If their armour has been destroyed then it’s usually about 1/50th of a second slower. If you’re using assault and have the aimdown time buffs from it, the scar is actually going to beat the vector in most cases while having better long range performance.

But no falloff? What do you mean? SMGs have much more severe damage dropoff than ARs.

#

(Bear in mind the numbers I use to estimate this assume 20% headshot chance and 40% limb shot chance. If this is accurate then so are my numbers)

kindred pewter
#

this is entirely from my own perspective, using a build designed for cqc and taking pot shots on single fire, the kriss has beaten me around 7/10 times i encounter it on even terms. most of my kills against someone with a vector have to come from an ambush or from me already knowing where they are. its kinda ridiculous when i only need to land three shots for a kill on the body and they can out fire that. as for the long range portion i've been in 3 firefights with a kriss and have lost 2 because first shot kick is a bitch, and accuracy by volume is much better than accuracy by accuracy

#

it over all needs a damage nerf, along with most of the other smgs.

noble widget
#

Accuracy by volume doesn’t generally exist unless it’s a one shot kill regardless.

#

Lower proportion of shots hit is proportionally slower time to kill.

#

I don’t think SMGs need a nerf in their current state, as they’d be totally outclassed by ARs. It’s pretty close as-is.

#

Out of the top 5 best of my estimated TTKs against an opponent with intact armour when considering only SMGs and ARs, 4/5 of them are ARs with only the vector competing there. Though it becomes about equal if the enemies armour is broken. Main SMG advantage is movement speed and ability to aim punch, as far as I can tell

strong bobcat
maiden grotto
strong bobcat
#

Ok then MP5 lol

#

There’s other guns that will replace the vector instantly

#

The issue isn’t the vector

#

It’s SMG’s all around

#

MP7 at 200m easy

#

Pp2000 as a low level
High ammo vector placeholder

noble widget
# strong bobcat MP7 at 200m easy

MP7 at 200m has its damage reduced to 25%. Even with perfect accuracy, considering spread I’d be surprised if you could kill someone at full health in one mag

latent valley
#

Eventually the Evo will get Osprey can and quick mags cope

rotund dagger
noble widget
rotund dagger
#

I don't agree

noble widget
#

0.1 seconds is the ttk difference between the scorpionEVO and a non-heavy-barrel M110.

rotund dagger
#

Thats the same time it takes to blink...

noble widget
#

So what? If you are making the point that ttk is irrelevant then ok, but you’ll find unanimous disagreement with you.

rotund dagger
#

Cool then lol I dont mind people disagreeing with me

noble widget
#

TTK generally tends to be slower in practise as people don’t hit every shot, but still in proportion between guns

#

Taking 50% longer to kill someone is major in a gunfight

languid violet
#

I think my issue is that ttk for ARs/LMGs increases significantly at 40m+ cause they have to start tap firing. Meanwhile SMGs have so little recoil they can full auto up to 100m. This causes all mid/long range engagements to favor SMGs which is insane.

#

That's not even addressing aim punch, which makes it impossible to fight back against SMGs.

normal pecan
#

IMO, it needs either get:

  1. Damage Reduction from 24 to 19. It'll put its DPS just slightly higher than its other counterparts, while still playing the same.
  2. Make it horridly inaccurate. Anything over 25m will require it to be spray&pray on ADS, or single fire.

In either case, I'm still waiting on it getting the 2-round burst.

rare rain
normal pecan
# rare rain SMGs have such big falloff long range tho 😂 wdm!?

SMGs should excel primarily at CQB Ranges, yet most of them only to start losing damage at over 50m-60m.

While there are other guns, like the Honey Badger, who's suppposed to be the in-between of an SMG and AR, having even less effective range.

IMO: For most SMGs, Damage Dropoff should start off 25m and end at 90m. Carbines and PDWs, especially the ones that use rifle cartridges, should have Damage Dropoff smack dab in the middle of SMGs and ARs.

rare rain
normal pecan
#

Definition of long range might be different between you two

#

but I do get what he's trying to say.

it's not just a few times where I get lazered by a Vector from +80m away. Outright DPS of the thing + 40rnd Mags allows it to just pepper at ranges that, realistically and balance-wise, doesn't make sense.

noble widget
#

Most ARs can effectively full auto as well as most SMGs in terms of recoil, but also have lower spread

#

Even if you’re using a high recoil AR then full auto is certainly still usable to 100m. If you’re far enough to need to tap fire you’re not going to be able to compete with any other long range weapons

hoary laurel
latent valley
#

Look at the date

kindred pewter
#

all im saying is when i can look into the fog of war on most day maps and not see shit then look at the vector emblem next to who killed me its quite annoying. they are supposed to be cqc and light weaponry for pilots and other ops that cant carry the amount of ammo. as for the accuracy by volume statement, when a gun with high fire rate mag dumps a street lane, reloads, and mag dumps again before i can hit half my 20rnd mag it becomes quite clear

hoary laurel
analog lintel
#

Kriss vector is a aim punch machine, it also completely freezes my PC for solid 3s

limpid badger
#

the Kriss vector is the whole package it has a decent TTK, good recoil, good handling, really good mags(in both capacity and reload speed) and good attachment variety and I don't think anyone can point to a similar packaged weapon as there is usually some downside to to most weapons. Currently the only downsides the Kriss vector has are shared with the other SMGs (like damage falloff and accuracy at range). So I think the Kriss Vector needs a clearer weakness that isn't handling as that is a given for SMGs so the candidates I propose to nerf are TTK ,mag capacity , reload speed or recoil control. I personally think a Mag capacity and reload speed nerf would keep the weapon fun to use but more punishing to get caught while low/empty on ammo

last dew
noble widget
#

people only think it shreds because it's so popular so they die to it most often.

#

and it's only so popular because people care about ttk way more than they should

last dew
#

nah, it is absolutely by far the best smg until maybe the p90 which is a bit more versatile. If going into a city map then vector up or get wrecked, overall the movement bonus + medic infinite self heal is borked

#

there's a reason it's popular and everyone uses it (when they hit lvl)

noble widget
#

even just considering SMGs, I'd say it's usually beaten by the Groza or the MP7 depending on scenario

#

it does have a niche, but not a very large one

last dew
noble widget
#

vector just doesn't seem to excel in many scenarios

last dew
#

have you used it much? you can laser mid range, reposition and flank with the speed, insta gib most anyone before they get 3 shots off, and drum mag can shred a whole squad

noble widget
#

I used to use it a lot

last dew
#

(accurately)

#

literally use it when salty as it's just pure S tier zoom zoom easy mode, take that helmet off for extra'ness

noble widget
limpid badger
#

why choose any other SMG? the Kriss Vector is the clear easy choice in 99% of scenarios

noble widget
last dew
#

kriss - +25% fire rate and +25% bullets (plus drum option) with .25 aim down compared to MP7's .15 aim down. which is negligible really, what's that in time, millisecond? Also osprey attachment is basically a free silencer/flash hider

noble widget
#

if times like this were truly negligible then nobody would care about the damage output of the Vector.

limpid badger
noble widget
#

it's a 0.05 second difference in a general scenario

noble widget
limpid badger
#

it is but most people don't really feel it unlike the scorpion or other high fire rate weapons

last dew
#

all the smg's are just beams of bullets 😄

#

i reckon once more people start hitting 125 then we'll have the same gripes with p90, that thing is a beast

noble widget
#

perhaps FAL as well, that thing has huge potential

limpid badger
noble widget
#

Personally I don't think that applies to many situations where you wouldn't just be better off hipfiring

rare rain
#

Imagine when everyone found out whats better then the vector, then they all gonna call that one for nerf aswell. 😅

sweet patio
#

What gun do you think is better

#

Anything better at 1v1s isn’t better at farming

#

P90 is worse at 1v1s but better at farming so most use that

noble widget
astral skiff
#

It's not, it's a good SMG as it should be. At distance it's a pea shooter.

foggy nexus
#

Vector still #1 gun sub 50 meters.

zealous axle
#

Vector #1 overall

jagged nest
#

i prefer P90 over vector. NGL once u get use to the game vector, p90, groza, HK, M4, AK , mp5 , mp7 more or less the same. sometimes i lose duels with a support with an vector due to exo where i would win with an m4 🤷🏻‍♂️ have changed between all of em and its more or less a skill issue not a vector issue.

rapid nacelle
#

the only real nerf vector would get is it's mag capacity but even then I doubt that'll get changed. HK and p90s have been killing me more lately and that's probably due to more people unlocking them now

somber crane
#

vector make 10 kills in the test field with 1 mag. how thats "weak" my friend, u dont need to reload to xD , nerf that garbage, thats why every one use vektor

rancid latch
#

it should keep its excellent recoil because thats how the kriss system works buut yea it needs somr sort of nerf

rotund dagger
noble widget
#

HK has a bit faster reload but yeah

noble widget
#

Vector is not special in how many kills it gets per mag

north harbor
#

Love the denial of some people about the kriss vector truly one of a kind

last dew
noble widget
#

I think SMGs would be generally just outclassed by ARs if there’s any more damage dropoff though

dense matrix
#

Plus locked on support

#

You can't come close to the vector with that

somber crane
#

The average vector player will always say that it is not broken because it is the weapon that EVERYONE uses, how logical, isn't it? all the videos and players use vector is because it is "nerfed" of course my friend

#

0 recoil
0 aiming problems, you can kill enemies long and short. The weapon "aims" faster, a drum weapon, you can kill 10 people with a single charger, everyone uses it, why add more weapons to the game if only the most broken weapon is used

elder night
#

I hate that I am generally a medium player but when I pick up the vector, instant good player, 1 v 2 like a boss😂 , get so many kills that I wouldn't normally have, damn but it just make me feel so unfair to use

noble widget
noble widget
#

it has reasonably high recoil though, I'm not sure why people keep insisting it doesn't

#

I estimate it can kill about 6.85 people per mag. Which is above average but only slightly

#

I think people will use it less over time.

last dew
noble widget
#

I used to use it quite a bit when I first got it

#

don't really use it at the moment, on medic/engineer I use the Groza instead

rancid latch
noble widget
#

Yeah, but SMGs don’t really have an advantage close up either

#

SMGs are usable because they still have the capability to fight back to a good distance

somber crane
#

bro u still talking garbage, u wanto to have the reason , why lose the time with people like, you.

jagged nest
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its not "too" op. have used it plenty and once u get use to the game it duels groza, scorpion, m4, ak, p90, mp5,mp7 more or less on even ground. sure its TTK is lower(not lower than scorpion), but there are MORE accurate weps that deal with issues at 25-50+ meters much more effectively than the vector, more or less stopped using it because it just isnt OP, i have the same playstyle and more or less score if i run scorp, p90, vector etc.

#

also being outdueled by a support cuz it does not deal with armor that well is just a plain counter. then on the other hand that the medic can sustain itself indefenetly is just fueling the outrage that it is "OP". if it were only tied to engineers this wouldnt even come up.

noble widget
merry mortar
#

just unlocked it and played it for 2 hours. kriss vector is utter bullshit and needs to be nerfed as the recoil is in no proportion to the rate of fire making it perform excetionally well on all ranges. now go ahead and downplay it, as the gun makes you feel as if you are actually good at the game.

foggy nexus
#

vector > p90 idk about scorpion havent unlocked it

north harbor
rotund dagger
#

I just hope the nerfs don't make these weapons utter trash

north harbor
rotund dagger
north harbor
#

Like the p90's performance

noble widget
#

It isn’t as though SMGs are faster in ttk than the other gun types, the main thing they have going for them is movement speed

#

The quickest ttk SMG there is, is still the 6th quickest in the game (think it gets a slightly lower if you count heavy barrels), and I’ve heard that one is going to be nerfed imminently

#

Though I’m not expecting the nerf to be to the gun’s ttk so that might not be too relevant to this point in particular

dense matrix
stone shadow
#

if ya'll nerf the Vector thats gonna piss a ton of people off

#

Also complaining about the vector is just proof you get mad when you die to it and thats just being honest

stone shadow
#

like its the easiest thing to counter

#

just use the RPG with HEAT explosives or Impact grenades

#

because the vector cant hit shit at certain ranges

swift hinge
#

Or just stand far away and use the range your weapon excels at. Damage drop off on SMG's is insane.

stone shadow
#

facts

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So stop bitching about the Vector and actually talk about EAC being shitty at detecting cheaters

swift hinge
#

People complain when they get shredded when they're out of their niche by a player within their niche.

stone shadow
#

sounds like a literal skill issue

swift hinge
#

It is.

#

SMGs also have lower bullet velocity.

#

Meaning they have to lead their shots more.

stone shadow
#

If they actually nerf the Vector, about 30% of the playerbase is gonna disappear

#

which is bad for business

swift hinge
#

Maybe, maybe not; There's still a few good run and gun weapons.

stone shadow
#

The MP7 out performs the Vector in some ways

#

also the people who bitch and moan about the vector are just salty and wanna see the majority of players suffer because their dick is so small and their skill is piss poor

swift hinge
#

If they reduced the unlock level for it, it might not be such a prominent issue.

#

I think it sucks being killed by a good weapon that you cannot use.

stone shadow
#

Also getting the vector within a week just proves my point of zero bitches

swift hinge
#

I don't want the other players to dedicate their life to this game for unlocks.

#

I say this as someone who had too much time on their hands, played nonstop until 2 weeks ago, and reached level 115+ with 140 hours.

#

I don't care for the grind.

#

If they made everything unlockable at level 0, making my grind pointless, I could not care less.

#

Unfortunately, it seems like this game is designed so that higher level weapons tend to be better.

#

And the Vector might be the best for its class.

#

But so are the other weapons.

rotund shoal
latent valley
rotund shoal
swift hinge
latent valley
#

He is too dented

swift hinge
#

Maybe he's new.

latent valley
#

Bothered to scroll all the way up but not check the date

swift hinge
#

He probably just doesn't know that those weapons were nerfed.

#

Shame on him for speaking without even making an effort be informed though.

noble widget
#

Honey badger still has its use cases

#

Very fast ttk and a quick aimdown time

#

Just has very poor range performance, pretty high recoil and not a lot of kills per mag for the reload time

swift hinge
noble widget
#

Honey badger has lower ttk and a faster aimdown time than the vector

#

In a CQC 1v1 scenario it just wins

swift hinge
#

If that is the case, that's a good niche use for it.

#

@noble widget Are there any other weapons that have the same or lower ttk/aimdown time as the Badger?

noble widget
#

FAL and ScorpionEVO both have better time to kill, with the FAL having slower aimdown time so it balances out perfectly and the scorpion having the same aimdown time

#

L86A1 with a heavy barrel is better ttk as well, but that has a slower aimdown time

swift hinge
dense matrix
#

Why would I waste rockets for 1 guy with a vector

#

And impact nades won't kill them before they kill you

dense matrix
#

If vector gets nerfed it'll get fucked like the ones mentioned

dense matrix
brittle dome
#

The vector needs a nerf . It's basically VectorBit 2023

noble widget
dense matrix
#

Vector has a drum mag

#

Honey badger has 28 bullets with extended

#

Which also fucks your recoil

#

And reload speed

#

And still you can maximum fight 2 or 3 people before reloading

noble widget
#

The theoretical maximum for a regular honey badger is about 6 people per mag

#

For a vector it’s almost 7

#

Can’t remember how many bullets are in regular honey badger mag though

limpid badger
#

24

noble widget
#

Yeah vector drum mag is probably disproportionately better than HB extended mag

#

Since attachments currently don’t properly affect your movement speed, it doesn’t slow you down even though it should. So the vector is a bit better with a drum mag than it should be due to a bug.

wispy oriole
#

100% buff mp7

void wolf
#

just unlocked the vector and used it for the first time and holy shit this thing is insane

stone shadow
#

Neat

orchid acorn
foggy nexus
severe rivet
#

all smgs are too over powered. give them half the damage

#

nobody should be able to kill you with a pp19 from over 100 meters away

dense hull
#

Vector and p90 defo op but in general ar/smg recoil to low. Being able to lazer beam full auto peeps 100m+ away is fried gameplay. Feels like a clear bias was given to these weapons lmfao

severe rivet
#

but yet DMRs take two shots to the head to kill someone when it shoots the same caliber as the ssg

dense hull
#

I think this needs to be addressed sooner than later to tbh. At the very least the vector and p90 issues kekw

severe rivet
#

just smgs in general imo. pp2000 is probably the only one i barely see used.

dense hull
#

Assault rifles are just as fried tbh. They all need a touch on the recoil/accuracy lmao

severe rivet
#

yeah, everything needs rebalanced, dmrs for sure the only type of firearms that i know of that need a buff

blissful wolf
#

a shotgun is just a worse smg

haughty star
#

I'm personally getting sick of getting mowed down by these things. When are we going to get some sort of balancing? This should have happened this patch.

zealous sable
#

kriss needs either more recoil or less damage because I've been sniped by the damn thing

severe rivet
zealous sable
severe rivet
zealous sable
#

given how many ppl I've seen bemoan the vector it's probably gonna get nerfed

severe rivet
#

It’s not just the vector it’s every smg can beam you from 100 yards away

#

All smgs need their damages cut In half at the most

brisk wigeon
swift hinge
#

So many cases of skill issue in this Discord forum.

jagged oar
#

accuracy nerf was good smgs are SUPPOSED to be good at cqc

rare rain
# severe rivet All smgs need their damages cut In half at the most

Thats... Erm... Not gonna get banned in here so I will say "dumb" 😄

Where is the balancing in that? Then all other weps will be to OP so lets nerf them all in half too!
Making the TTK (Do you know what TTK stand for?)

SMG close are very good, noone can deny it. On long range SMGs are not that great due to the drop off in damage but atleast be some realistic or just not comment.

haughty star
rare rain
haughty star
# rare rain No they not.

After 180 hours of playing this insanely fun game, I can easily say that SMGs are very good at most ranges

rare rain
haughty star
#

The issue is the accuracy and fire rate of the vektor at range. One or two bullets less in a TTK scenario when you can easily land shots at 200m is what I think most people are concerned about.

#

Take the drum mag off the thing and there's almost no recoil

rare rain
#

The vector works like a vector!? Omg cancel the game!

Ppl saying its still OP at long ranged, its not. No SMG are. If ppl knew the distance and everything they got killed from they would know they most of the time getting killed within the 200m marks most of the time.

#

Well lets listen to @severe rivet lets nerf all SMGs damage in half! Becuase that would be a genius move! 👍

haughty star
#

Apparently the real vector is some magical no-recoil weapon. At full auto it has plenty of recoil. But how many times have you seen someone running around in battlebit burst firing it?

#

But nothing is going to be realistic in this game. It's more of an arcade shooter. I'm just saying that at range, SMGs need more recoil. i don't think changing the damage model will help anything.

vagrant mason
noble widget
haughty star
#

you guys either don't play much, or havent touched the vector. I've got 1000 kills on the thing and have abused it like most people. Its an easy gun to use at range. Even easier close range

#

The top scoring people in every match are using the vector. That should be enough evidence right there. SMG's are powerful at range. Period

noble widget
#

That… isn’t evidence for that. That just means it’s popular among good players

haughty star
#

Because it's such a powerful weapon. There's a correlation there.

noble widget
#

All SMGs are weak at range because they have a lot of damage dropoff, what more is there to it

noble widget
haughty star
#

It's the exact thing I claimed. I'm,finished arguing for the sake of arguing. SMG's are versatile, powerful at close range, just as effective as most weapons at range, and should be adjusted in one way or another

noble widget
#

(A weapon being powerful would not mean it’s powerful at all ranges, so it’s not the same thing you claimed. Not that that’s important.)

swift hinge
#

I'm also curious as to their hours and overall K/D and weapon breakdown.

glad rover
#

I didn't do medic/vector style till around 100, and 100-120 were so dumb easy and fast. The vector meta defense blows my mind.

swift hinge
#

I normally run SMGs and dominate in short range, but struggle a lot against mid-long range

glad rover
#

Vector shreds under 100, past that feels like pissing in wind but you still get lucky sometimes. Mp5 and other ones reach out way easier though

swift hinge
#

Once I started experimenting with ARs more and use a mid range scope with semi auto, the game turns into a point and click adventure.

glad rover
#

Scar-H with Slip scope is nasty

swift hinge
#

It's almost like different weapons are fulfilling different niches.

glad rover
#

Yea I don't think thats the reason this thread exists. The vector is an outlier of all smgs

#

I don't think the vector issue is an smg wide issue.

swift hinge
#

The Vector might be an outlier for the SMG class, but do we know how the final ARs and Snipers compare with the rest?

noble widget
#

What do you mean by that?

swift hinge
#

It almost seems impossible to tell when their unlock level is too damn high.

glad rover
#

Yes, all snipers are samey, FAL and g36c is good but outside of that higher ARs are meh

noble widget
#

FAL is arguably very meta, but like 0.5% of people probably have it

swift hinge
# noble widget What do you mean by that?

People are complaining about Vector being a broken SMG, but IIRC, a big design philosophy behind the grind and unlocks was to emulate old school battlefield where higher level weapons were actually better.

#

But it's just something I've heard; I'm not too sure.

noble widget
#

G36C is a nice balance of controllable recoil and time to kill, wouldn’t say it’s a top tier gun though

#

Basically a halfway between scar and m4 in terms of its stats

glad rover
#

I think its better than the m4 personally

#

RPM wins fights in this game if you can keep on target

noble widget
#

Yeah, I do as well

swift hinge
#

@glad rover Do you think the P90 is broken or overpowered?

#

Some players have been complaining about it, but when I used it in the playtest, it wasn't anything near the Vector. It was like an SMG, but with a bit more ammo and perhaps range.

glad rover
#

Nah it just feels like a higher mag count mp5

#

I think its good

#

but not same thing as vector

noble widget
#

P90, without considering the mag size, is a solid gun. But it has a big mag without downsides, and that pushes it up to the top in the eyes of many people.

swift hinge
noble widget
#

Fair

swift hinge
#

But I'm biased cause of Counter Strike Source. I loved using that gun.

glad rover
#

Yea, where the vector can run a drum mag if it wants with very little stat hit outside of reload speed

#

while also shooting at 1200 rpm

noble widget
#

Vector drum mag is a bit stronger than it’s meant to be currently. It’s supposed to slow down your movement speed, but that feature is broken

#

Still, vector drum mag is on par with the P90 for how many it can kill in a mag, but it then has quite a bit more recoil than the P90, and in theory looses its speed advantage, with aim punch being the one main advantage it has there.

glad rover
#

Aim punch from vector takes longer to reset than you'll live

#

First shot wins lol

swift hinge
#

Aim punch probably skews a lot weapon balance tbh.

#

I initially thought only LMGs aimpunched to give support more utility, but it turns out everything does.

#

Maybe aimpunch should be removed first before calling for nerfs.

noble widget
#

If not removed, at least made lower from shots that deal less damage

swift hinge
#

Is that currently not the case? Does the single bullet from an SMG have the same level of aimpunch as and LMG or Sniper?

#

That's kind of ass if so.

#

I really wish it was just removed entirely from the game or just given to LMGs.

noble widget
#

It seems so. Though I think snipers might specifically be given more aim punch, not sure

swift hinge
#

Damn.

stone shadow
#

yall need to calm down about the vector

#

its perfectly balanced

noble widget
#

Vector having almost twice the aim punch affect of most guns in the game is a big factor to its perception imo, because people feel like they can’t fight back against it

stone shadow
#

nerfing it is just gonna cause a huge drop in players

noble widget
glad rover
#

thats such a dogshit take lmao

swift hinge
#

I wish I could see a breakdown of weapons that killed me.

noble widget
#

The community consensus is that people want a vector nerf. Nobody’s quitting because of it.

stone shadow
swift hinge
#

I can probably count on my hand the number of times a vector has gotten me.

stone shadow
swift hinge
noble widget
stone shadow
#

cope

noble widget
#

What kind of argument is that meant to be

stone shadow
#

The MP7 is more powerful according to this chart

noble widget
glad rover
#

Yea imagine if ttk was the only thing that mattered in this game

stone shadow
#

its fairly accurate

noble widget
#

No it’s not

#

It considers unarmoured bodyshots exclusively, assuming every shot hits the same place

stone shadow
#

which a majority of the shots do hit the body

glad rover
#

m110 is hot trash, if you wanna use that kinda data idk

noble widget
#

A decent ttk measure needs to consider the widest possible scope of scenarios and weight them to how likely they are to occur

stone shadow
#

you're looking too hard into this

#

perhaps you had enough internet for the evening

swift hinge
glad rover
#

You came in here to post graphs and argue homie

noble widget
swift hinge
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I'm someone that doesn't necessarily think it needs to be nerfed.

stone shadow
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I believe its fine the way it is

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it kind of acts like how it does to its real world counterpart in terms of recoil and spread

noble widget
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I wouldn’t mind a vector nerf since I don’t even use the gun. But it would shut up all these pointless arguments that I am helplessly drawn towards.

stone shadow
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when you die so much to a singular gun you decide to cry for a nerf

swift hinge
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With aimpunch and higher tier weapons being locked behind a grind, it's going to be a while before a true meta develops.

stone shadow
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might as well nerf the MP7

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And RPG

glad rover
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My man you're real passive aggressive telling others to get off the internet.

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Lets take this time to reflect on ourselves

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You came into here to argue.

swift hinge
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There's also a lot of ignorance towards the game itself. Like many snipers I've encountered didn't know about zeroing before I told them about it.

pulsar bane
noble widget
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I don’t pay attention to what guns people use, it doesn’t really bother me

swift hinge
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There's also the fact that because the Vector is touted as broken, more players will be drawn towards it, possibly sleeping on some other broken weapons until a nerf hits the Vector.

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Kind of like what happened to Elden Ring when Rivers of Blood and Moonveil were nerfed.

noble widget
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It’s certainly the most popular weapon for level 70+, by quite some way

swift hinge
noble widget
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Yeah, people who stick to a specific class or gun type do limit themselves a lot there though

swift hinge
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I've been getting all the weapons that interest me to 200-400 kills before I try another, but I've found myself using ARs because I've already exhausted all SMGs and PDWs.

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I've exhausted most of the snipers except for the first 2 because by the time I started using recon, I already had the 3rd one lmao.

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I think it was the SV-98.

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Or maybe that was the 2nd one, I'm not sure.

noble widget
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I’ve used ARs more than any other weapon just because assault has to use them

swift hinge
noble widget
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Yeah I’m not sure what the logic is for that. Groza on assault would be amazing ngl

swift hinge
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I feel that.

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I also would like a Primary Riot Shield weapon. The salt from the tears of my enemies would sustain me more than any medkit ever would.

glad rover
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The riot shield is so garbage it hurts

swift hinge
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Current Riot Shield is too underwhelming.

noble widget
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Riot shield should be able to bonk enemies

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It slows you down way too much though

swift hinge
glad rover
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Esp in a game where you can instant build walls

swift hinge
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Even if you disagree with what I want, hopefully you will have some ideas that will make it anything but garbage.

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I'm sure it has some utility in its current form as a gadget, but my issue with it is that it's not fun.

noble widget
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The only time it helps in its current state is if you’re caught in the open by surprise at mid range, and it saves you from death while you retreat to cover. This is not a common enough scenario for it to work well

swift hinge
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Can enemies or allies shoot through the glass?

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Does the riot shield protect against explosives?

noble widget
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I only used it a few times. I don’t think there is explosive protection and I’m not sure how the glass window works, but I don’t think it blocks friendlies

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riot shield in tabg is pretty fun because you can run at almost full speed and bonk people with it, that could definitely be done in battlebit without it becoming unbalanced

swift hinge
swift hinge
solemn crescent
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this post is open since january 2023

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the vector is op since january 2023

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and the first message is "there are more pressing issues than balancing"

stone shadow
dense matrix
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Why use anything else other than vector/groza/m4

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Snipers are pointless,dmrs suck ass,other carbines take ages to unlock,other smgs are inferior and other ars same

stone shadow
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live Vista reaction

IMG_0671.jpg
nimble crystal
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I stopped using the vector and have solely run the groza. I'm level 86 and have tried every other gun available to me. Closest I've gotten to feeling competitive is the pp19 but nothing else is fun

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The sg550 I thought would be good but my god is it bad

rare rain
sweet patio
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also you got fal

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and p90?

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it's like more popular than vector among good players I think

haughty star
rare rain
opal swallow
haughty star
rare rain
opal swallow
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You could've worded that much better and not looked like a goddamn clown 🤷‍♂️

rare rain
haughty star
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I'll be honest, im just done with the whole conversation. I just don't like Ben.

opal swallow
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I don't agree with ben either, but you act like such an ass that you singlehandedly make people not want to agree with you.

haughty star
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But I was hoping there was some meaningful discussion on the whole smg subject, but all in all, it just seems to be "the weapon is OP" "no it isnt" back and forth

rare rain
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Why dont you like me?

haughty star
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I don't care if people agree with me

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im old and ornery

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Farewell nerds.

opal swallow
rare rain
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Yeah we dont agree but when you say there are evidence and you cant back it up and even call someone braindead for it, its just dumb man. Dont say there is evidence and then you cant back it up.

Have a good day.

shell seal
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For the love of god please nerf this go-to weapon

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And the P90 is a laser, so give that a little nerf too

dense matrix
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Ak74 isn't as good as m4a1

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Fal and p90 as I said take ages to unlock

dense matrix
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And I don't see the mp5 often at all

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I used the mp7 for a while,yes it does well on 1v1s but very little sustainability

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Reload is long,you'll get rushed and killed most of the time unless you have a good sidearm

rich flume
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Maybe a good change to the vector would be just reducing the accuracy stat so it loses most of its range

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because right now its way too good out to like 80m

noble widget
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The achievable kills per mag makes a lot more sense

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The Vector does beat the MP7 in this regard though, of course

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Maximum MP7 kills though is about 5.5 in a mag

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A lot of people in this server do swear the MP5 is meta

rich flume
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honestly reload speed i think matters more

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accuracy too

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and recoil as they all affect effective range

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which affects your realistic ttk and in a roundabout way kills per mag

noble widget
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Whichever matters more depends on how big the differences are between them. Ttk is a bit overrated though

rich flume
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to an extent yeah

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TTK is relevant but nowhere near as how consistant you can make the gun

dense matrix
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Also armor exists

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And recoil

noble widget
noble widget
dense matrix
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That it depends on the armor type you fight against

dense matrix
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3 secs reloading after 2 kills max,plus high rate of fire which makes reloading more frequent,although the vector has the 60 drum mag

dense matrix
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Even though armor is kind of shit and the difference isn't that much

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Speed>armor in this game

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The more ammo the less you need to reload basically,and it does scale with rof but 2x mag size

stone shadow
noble widget
noble widget
noble widget
dense matrix
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Dmg isn't much different

dense matrix
noble widget
dense matrix
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Not that much

noble widget
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Even a small change makes bullets per mag a meaningless measurement. A heavy barrel is generally enough to make the ttk difference of about 20ms, and the bullet damage differences between SMGs are often a lot more than that.

I’m not sure why I’m even bothering with this as your argument here seems to be “it’s not that bad”, which is far from a justification.

dense matrix
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What isn't bad?

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Also smgs don't have these barrels

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Only one that decreases damage

noble widget
# dense matrix What isn't bad?

Using bullets in mag as a relevant stat to measure gun performance. You haven’t suggested any reason that this would be better than using the average amount of kills you can get in a mag, you’ve just said the differences aren’t much, implying it’s not a big deal.

noble widget
last dew
# dense matrix Not that much

Yes it does. An example, right before beta release the AK damage was nerfed from 33 to 31 so that heavy barrel would take 4 bullets to kill instead of 3. Changed the whole meta and evened out the M4/AK/AR choice

dense matrix
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I dont think that's all that changed on the ak74

last dew
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That's all that changed before beta release, and since. Last before that was a velocity increase (for AK and some other AR's) on 27/07/2022. Search "in: upcoming-updates ak74"

dense matrix
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Makes sense then

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Yet the m4 is still better

pulsar bane
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I don't mind the vector being a cqc king, the problem is when cqc feels like it's up to 150 meters.

noble widget
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At 150m it does like under half its usual damage

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Plus it’s inaccurate with considerable recoil

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It’s not going to win against any longer range gun so far away

pulsar bane
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Don't mean to offend. But it does just fine past the 100+ meters and don't seems to be bothered much by reaching the 150.

noble widget
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I don’t know what to tell ya. SMGs are just weak at those distances.

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By the time it gets to about 180 meters, it’s barely above 6 damage per shot

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The gun has no properties that would make it effective at mid-long range.

pulsar bane
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I guess it's sheer bullet volume, I unlocked it recently and my KD ratio is not the same.
I can just spray in the general direction where I know someone is and it usually do the job.

noble widget
#

That doesn’t exist

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It’s not a concept that will somehow improve how quickly you can kill someone

swift hinge
pulsar bane
pulsar bane
noble widget
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A “hose-like effect” has nothing to do with the gun’s ability to kill someone

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Painting an area with bullets means nothing if those bullets to almost no damage and most of them miss

pulsar bane
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It greatly increase hit probability

noble widget
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No it isn’t

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It doesn’t affect it at all

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This is a common misconception in many games

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It’s only relevant when a single bullet is enough to kill.

pulsar bane
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Either I'm really dumb , or I'm missing something (perhaps both) but are youtelling me that firerate has little impact in a game ?

noble widget
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Depends what you mean by impact. To quantify the ability of a gun to kill someone, I would refer to TTK. The fire rate is already factored in for this. Fire rate does not affect hit rate.

The only other way fire rate affects a gun is in the form of aim punch, as it seems each bullet deals the same amount of aim punch, so a 1200rpm gun will do it twice as much as a 600rpm gun.

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In the From The Depths community I have to explain to people quite frequently how fire rate generally isn’t an important consideration for their AA/CIWS guns, so many people seem to intuitively think it matters a lot and will make their weapons weaker to get a higher fire rate. I think this comes from the fact that planes irl aren’t armoured thickly, so getting hits often matters a lot more than the strength of those hits.

swift hinge
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Having a high fire rate does increase the chances of you hitting a target, but that alone doesn't mean much especially if the damage is abysmal.

pulsar bane
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I do realize that the TTK already takes into account fire rate, (I'm not THAT dumb :p). But TTK is a metric that deals with "ideal" conditions where every bullets hit.
Fire rate increase the chances of hitting with a bullet considering that, when people aim, they don't aim at the same point if they miss the first few bullets and adjust they aim. as you do so, with a high fire-rate, every time your cross-hair align with your target your hit chance is higher than with a lower one (as you could be aiming at the right spot but between two shots). and even though for a similar TTK on two weapon, the one with the higher fire-rate would have lower damage per bullet... an higher hit probability, I think, compensate for that.

You speak about AA guns, and it does illustrate that quite well. It's tough hitting something that is several km above you, having a trail of lead greatly facilitate the job.

And I do realize that , if I was a more acccurate shot, this would not be an issue. Since if TTK alone is to take into account, especially at longer ranges the vector is not the best gun in the game. But I would say that it's an easier gun to manage.

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And yes, aimpunch appearing to be the same for every bullet does give an edge to high firerates gun in a duel.

noble widget
# pulsar bane I do realize that the TTK already takes into account fire rate, (I'm not THAT du...

Your initial consideration doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. You say people aim at a different point if they miss a few bullets; understandable, though with a higher fire rate you would fire more bullets before this correction. But your explanation of why this should make a difference between guns of different fire rate doesn’t seem to relate to this, you just said that every time the crosshair is on target you’re probably going to hit.

Most guns fire at least 10 bullets per second, so I’m not sure what the part about aiming at the right spot between two shots means; in both types of gun, this implies to me that you are still aiming at each point for proportionally the same amount of time, therefore it is just as likely that any bullet fired in a given duration for either gun will, on average, achieve the same hit rate.

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The higher fire rate gun will become a bit more reliable from this behaviour, but that won’t make it better or worse overall

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(And of course, if we’re comparing the guns at these stated ranges then the ARs will be getting 2-3x faster time to kill generally than an SMG here, ignoring inaccuracy, so the difference would need to be very profound to match)

swift hinge
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Hmm.

Suppose we have two weapons with perfect accuracy, no recoil, and the same TTK. The only difference is that one has high RoF with low damage, and the other has low RoF with high damage to compensate. In order for both weapons to achieve the minimum TTK:

  • High RoF/Low Damage: Needs to perfectly track the target throughout the whole engagement

  • Low RoF/High Damage: Needs to perfectly track during each shot.

On the other hand:

  • High RoF/Low Damage: Each shot contributes less, but missing a shot is less punishing.

  • Low RoF/High Damage: Each shot contributes more, but missing a shot is more punishing.

pulsar bane
noble widget
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Both need to track for each shot, just one has less correction to do in a proportionally smaller time window.

I think your second set of points is irrelevant though; for a gun with twice the fire rate and half the damage, each miss will be less punishing but it will also miss twice as often, these will cancel out to no effect.

astral skiff
stone shadow
jagged nest
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Took 2 1/2 days of medicore grind to unlock it.
Dunno why people whine, the pp2000 mini-vector and the groza aka the "vector slayer" was more than enough to compete

vagrant mason
rich flume
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People complain as vector is the best smg and its brainless easy to use with an insane ttk.

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Plus you basically only die to 4x snipers vector or ak15 at this point

noble widget
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The ttk is pretty fast but I think insane is a bit of an exaggeration

rotund dagger
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Good to see some upcoming vector nerfs

north harbor
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Good to see

somber crane