showdown-general

[scarlet elm]

What game do you guys play here.

[opal fiber]

Smogon Singles Competitive Pokemon

[odd kiln]

ape head means zam body nukes atk

[unborn pine]

wait so it is ape head?

i assume solely for the fire type

and 4 speed

[pallid oracle]

is this good

Tapu Fidale (Tapu Fini) @ Maranga Berry
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Water
Fusion: Mudsdale
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 130 Def / 50 SpD
Adamant Nature

• Body Press
• Knock Off
• Waterfall
• Rest

[unborn pine]

the moveset not really
and idk what a maranga berry is
you probably want a different water type that does have reliable recovery

and can spam scald next to body press

id completely get rid of attack evs and invest entirely into bulk

Milodale (Milotic) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Water
Fusion: Mudsdale
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature

• Recover
• Body Press
• Scald
• Roar/Refresh

good to team it up with something that resists and gets rid of grass types

[sturdy cradle]

whatever you need it to do I like Fire better than Fighting

NP with STABs and Counter

or any other support moves like T-Wave

[fresh lion]

I'm in a infinite fusion draft league and I need a run down on what's good lmao

[opal fiber]

Meloetta-pirouette is an amazing choice for a Body if you're looking for a very fast physical attacker

[odd kiln]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xt6Gh6IlBXZJ4rbxEdvnau_SgG4Z6XcHMlgjdUbLqWE/edit?usp=sharing i ranked this draft

[fresh lion]

In wpfs version they don't separate body and head I get 3 mons that can fuse between others each week

Aka 3 fusion capts

[opal fiber]

Oom ic

[fresh lion]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F7-rGTucYl4G9IaKqqbE2rYORewswZbtNGFDeF4Pzi4/edit?usp=drivesdk

Here's the doc I'm in ice div

[obtuse shoal]

I just found out jirachi can learn recover

jesus christ

[obtuse shoal]

also what does snorlax even do

is he just stats?

[odd kiln]

yes

in the case of snorcor also facade stab

[obtuse shoal]

im trying out snorlax tangrowth

it's so fucking bulky it's a crime

[odd kiln]

weak to fire and fighting

[obtuse shoal]

1- I'm using rain

2- Who even uses fighting

[odd kiln]

entei meloetta

[obtuse shoal]

why would I use tangrowth to counter entei

I have latias politoed for that

[odd kiln]

physical wall weak to fire is not great

latias gets 2hkod by cc

[obtuse shoal]

besides, this isn't my only wall

[obtuse shoal]

oh should I fuse a ghost type with no recovery on my rain setter?

[odd kiln]

you wouldnt need to if your physical wall wasnt weak to fighting

[obtuse shoal]

fighting isn't a super relevant type

besides sub, what other ways are there to punish people from switching instead of staying in and attacking

[obtuse shoal]

Btw jirachi wheezing is really cool

It has recover!

[mighty geode]

a

[lost galleon]

Snorlax is indeed mostly just crazy high stats. And thick fat, which can catch people off guard if the other half doesn’t provide a better ability

[obtuse shoal]

Yeah it does feel that way, because it can't provide much for move pool except coverage

[west ibex]

is there place with sample teams or sample mons

whant to know whats good

[obtuse shoal]

Even if there was the meta just changed twice

Once with permanent weather, twice with the swift swim chlorophyll banned

[obtuse shoal]

As for what's good
Steels, entei, scald

Regenerators, unaware

Electrode Alakazam

And weather of course

[hexed umbra]

Throw any defensive mon with pex and regen and it will be at least decent

[obtuse shoal]

Shuckle pex let's go

I mean, sounds funny but what does it even do

Fish burns with scald?
Toxic spikes everywhere?

[west ibex]

why is entei good?

[warped veldt]

Entei fusions get V-Create.

Things tend to explode when exposed to V-Create.

[west ibex]

oh damm

[hexed umbra]

What's the main entei fusion people are running these days? (outside of Sun teams)

[deft oasis]

Sandslash/Entei in Sand; TArrows + V-Create is an almost unresisted combo except for a few Grass and Bug types with Flash Fire

[lone dust]

Entei Magnezone is used for steel trapping (although less common since boom burst ban)

Entei/meloetta (or Jirachi) sees use for serene grace sacred fire and just hits hard and fast in general

[obtuse shoal]

Entei meloetta is really popular

[dull plaza]

Can’t forget good ol Snorcor

[odd kiln]

erm

thats not an entei

[obtuse shoal]

But it is a notable pokemon

Somehow

[odd kiln]

i like entei tangrowth

good stallbreaker with regen sd

[obtuse shoal]

Honestly never thought about that combo

Normally I throw tangrowth out when I want to defend against earthquakes, scalds or electrics

Although my thought process then goes "OK, what now"

[obtuse shoal]

so how do you deal with electrify strats?

[odd kiln]

switch

[obtuse shoal]

switch to who

because they'll keep spamming electrify

[odd kiln]

does jackshit if you keep switching

[obtuse shoal]

Honestly I think I found the right option
substitute!

[odd kiln]

no it goes through sub

[obtuse shoal]

Really? I had sub up and it failed

[odd kiln]

My bad.

i was thinking mbounce

[obtuse shoal]

weird annoying trick

thoughts on heal bell rest

[dull plaza]

How will you use Heal Bell when you already have Sleep

[obtuse shoal]

it's not on the same pokemon

one pokemon rests, the other uses heal bell

[unborn pine]

what about electrify on an offensive Pokémon that threatens ground types
then it becomes worlds most annoying guessing game

Was it ever tested?

[odd kiln]

electrify affects ground too

the main problem is electrify users are always weak

[obtuse shoal]

any electric type can learn electrify

so you can have lightning rod zapdos easily

thing is, not even status moves can stop it

[odd kiln]

even zapdos is pretty weak when you dont click attacking moves to let it setup

[obtuse shoal]

electrify is the setup

[odd kiln]

and it doesnt work if you dont atk

spam switch and the opp cant do any dmg

[obtuse shoal]

but even if you use status moves electrify punishes you

[odd kiln]

switching is not a status move

[obtuse shoal]

what about electrify + hazards

it's kinda like a protect like that

[odd kiln]

regen doesnt care about hazards

you can switch the bulkiest sr resistors and click recovery when needed

[obtuse shoal]

So I'm using tangrowth with yawn now

it's amazing

I can use yawn to make them go away, I can use sub to stay in

I noticed ferrothorn and tangrowth can be really complicated mons to push away, especially if rain is on

[obtuse shoal]

I had a tangrowth substitute taking a mind blown from an alakazam and not breaking

Yes it's in the rain and fused with snorlax
It's still insane

[hexed umbra]

That's snorlax for you

[obtuse shoal]

Yeah my only issue is that it does nothing

It just sits there

Forcing switches with yawn and leech seed

[hexed umbra]

What about running curse as a wincon?

Wait you're running yawn/sub/leech seed/# ? Yeah that seems super passive, especially against grasses/magic guard/poison heal mons

[obtuse shoal]

Yup
That's very true

I'm also running knock off

it gets switches like crazy though

[gritty sluice]

there is something morally wrong about this.

[obtuse shoal]

it feels like it gets toxiced easily

[gritty sluice]

true!

[obtuse shoal]

not to mention, any steel type can just do whatever it wants

or poison

since it provides no pressure

you can try seismic toss instead of toxic

[gritty sluice]

True enough

wait that's illegal

literally

ah, Chansey doesn't get it

Blissey Does

nvm?

[obtuse shoal]

that's a shame then

but I don't know what you're expecting that to do

[obtuse shoal]

So if I'm using a pokemon centered on hazards, what can I do to discourage the other guy from defogging or rapid spin

[odd kiln]

defiant and ghost

[obtuse shoal]

I was also thinking of offensive pressure

Hard to defog if you're worried about enteis v create or that they set up and sweep

[odd kiln]

that only works if ur using hyper offense

with anything slower you lose momentum and the opp can just remove hazards

[obtuse shoal]

How does momentum work

From what I understand is being in a state of advantage, where the opponent has to answer to your play instead of him being able to make his own

[odd kiln]

correct

[obtuse shoal]

So I was thinking how I like to use leech seed or yawn or salt cure to force switches, and it looks right in with hazards

But this kind of playing is also pretty easy to stop with rapid spin or a defogger

Any way I can have the best of both worlds?

[lost galleon]

Kill the rapid spinner or defogger

[odd kiln]

thats not momentum

momentum is primarily offensive as in if youre entei meloetta and you uturn on the water into your idk electric or something

[obtuse shoal]

Some times it's more easily said than done
When they bring in some slowbro forretress fusion

[topaz jackal]

Can I fight my friends teams in showdown through the mobile PIF?

When I chose export team

And nothing happening when I press any or those options

[pure breach]

Not sure if anyone here has the answer to that, it looks like an issue in-game with the mobile versions, so might be worth heading to #tech-support for that?

[unborn pine]

Never really thought about it that much but I can def see that when playing games

sometimes you have to sack a valuable mon because you misplayed with another mon and can't beat something and that can cause a domino effect

The other way around too, sometimes you can just click the same move 5 times with no worry

i assume well built teams are the ones that prepare for that and can make a turn around

may depend on the archetype of tema

[obtuse shoal]

Ok I figured it out

Leech seed + block works great

[obtuse shoal]

btw, doesn't ferrothorn lack in recovery?

[pure breach]

yes

[lost galleon]

Gamefreak wasn't quite crazy enough to give it synthesis

[azure sable]

Leech seed

[hexed umbra]

Leech Seed isn't reliable recovery, it heals little at once and doesn't work against Grasses/Magic Bounce/Magic Guard (& liquid ooze ig)

[warped veldt]

A true sign that I'm good at competitive Pokémon is when I get harassed by some rando.

Wow, there really are people Like That, huh?

[undone surge]

i remember somebody cursing at me whilst harrassibg me with slurs and threats cause i brought a stall team

[azure sable]

Deserved

[warped veldt]

I have a group of competitive Pokémon friends who hate stall with a passion.

I remember telling them Regenerator is meta here and them dying inside.

[undone surge]

They got mad cause they lost even with a fusion that literally 6-0s my team

[proud apex]

I'm making weather teams for fun, hit me up for battles or ideas.

[white birch]

How do I do it

[unborn pine]

I think I know who that was if it was on the if showdown and they're banned so yeah 👍

[unborn pine]

Don't show them my teams

[crystal valley]

yo.
anyone wanna do Gen 9 FFA

[obtuse shoal]

Entei V create in sun

Or sun moonlight

Or rain with steels
Or sand sand rush

[obtuse shoal]

I try to make my teams stally at the beginning but with sweeping at the end.

But in practice I just end up stalling so much they give up

But yeah it gets a bit crazy
"Oh I can't get past his defenses? He's using stall and that's bad"

[obtuse shoal]

So how is celebi used here

[unborn pine]

qd

not very good but has it's uses
I've seen chandelure celebi with flash fire but dunno if it is good

[unborn pine]

It is probably also ok defensively and has heal bell iirc

[obtuse shoal]

grass types have some actually good defenses

resistant to ground water and electric which are some really good types

and of course, leech seed can be just enough recovery to outlast the other guy

[obtuse shoal]

today I found out block doesn't work on ghost types

[hexed umbra]

Ghost types can't be trapped by anything

[azure sable]

Arena trap

Or does it not work

Yeah nvm it doesnt

[vital sand]

im curious

usually what time is the showdown server crowded

[pure breach]

7-8 hours from now, usually when Americans are home. It gets a lot more activity on Friday nights and weekends

[proud apex]

I was really wondering how that worked, but felt silly trying to heal with moonlight from the sun 😅

[carmine moth]

@tight echo

[uncut ginkgo]

pokeathlon isnt exactly loading
maybe its servers are being a little clunky but stuck in this screen

nothing is uh,
being a little good

[pure breach]

If you continue to have issues with it loading, please check your connection, or try another browser. We are aware that the website sometimes just takes a bit to load, so please be patient

[uncut ginkgo]

ai'ight

[azure sable]

It takes a while for it to load, for me atleast

[desert birch]

it loads instantly for me the first time of the day and then i have to switch browsers every use

Using microsoft edge is most consistent for it ive seen

[azure sable]

I think showdown uses cookies to save your teams and stuff

[undone surge]

i mean you can just make a paste of your teams

[obtuse shoal]

leech seed is a very interesting move

When it is on, the pokemon becomes a tank

but it also makes the other guy change pokemon

[obtuse shoal]

https://replay.pokeathlon.com/#replay=illusion911-redmansgreed-1719008605626
So it seems no guard with sing and monkey paw gives some crazy results

[stiff fox]

Is there a way to fast import my team from my save file into a showdown team?

without basically manually typing it all out?

[obtuse shoal]

there's an import export option

in the showdown

and ingame it's the second floor guy

[stiff fox]

Thanks for the response. How do you get the team from in game in text form to allow for the exporting into showdown?

[obtuse shoal]

the guy on the second floor in the poke centers

he's in the right side of the floor

[stiff fox]

thank you

[novel star]

how can i play ? is it a website?

[midnight summit]

Yes, link to the server at the bottom of the pins

[novel star]

ok

[lost galleon]

I don’t think mankey paw works with no guard in the game

[unborn pine]

That's really an annoying stall breaking tool

[cyan rock]

it's insane

[dull plaza]

It’s intentional that they don’t work together as Infinite Fusion makes them not work together.

[lost galleon]

Yes, but that guy was talking about it like they did, which might mean it’s not working right on Showdown

[vital sand]

oh yea there is no alt

Prolly hasnt been updated @azure sable

[azure sable]

Probably

[azure sable]

although the calc website shows its registeel body

The infinitefusiondex website i mean

[vital sand]

weird

[light raft]

anyone want to play gen 9 randbats and maybe coach me a bit

[unborn pine]

The reverse?

[dawn gazelle]

To

[dawn gazelle]

How do you speed up the game

[shrewd delta]

Q on laptop

[summer swallow]

what is showdown?

[unborn pine]

Check channel description

[pure breach]

Showdown is an online multiplayer battle simulator. You can build your Pokemon team and battle other people with it!

There’s a number of formats that offer different Pokemon and different rules

[hexed umbra]

Are there any popular Magnezone fusions that currently don't have sprites?

[odd kiln]

magnezone entei

[unborn pine]

speed boost from rapid spin

[undone surge]

gotta love chaos fucking dex ou up so its now considered gen 9 🔥

[covert forge]

Ash Greninja hit the builder? 😮

[odd kiln]

its still illegal

[proven solstice]

what thing has mega evo's legal

[pure breach]

AG formats for the most part

[dire girder]

why it keeps blocking the fusion moves? and why can't i text in the chat (my account is older than a week and i've won on ladder)

[pure breach]

I can fix the fusion move stuff in a second

have you won a game on the official showdown website?

[dire girder]

yes

[pure breach]

what's your showdown user

[dire girder]

i used 2 different names

didn't know the account was shared

logged in with the main account from showdown

now it works

[pure breach]

that's good

[obtuse shoal]

So are ghost and dark an offensive, or a defensive typing

[next pulsar]

Could be both honestly, depends on the Pokemon mixed

I have been researching Umbreon combos and the two that stood out to me are:

Umbreon (Head) + Koffing (Body): Take Levitate and you have Zero Weaknesses (He is now immune to his only weakness, Ground.) Beyond that you can go Leftovers and Learn Parting Shot + Wish + Protect for the classic Wish Cleric Build. Fourth move can be whatever you want. Explosion or Toxic or Toxic Spikes or Heal Bell are all nice options on him. Even Pain Split is funny.
Toxapex (Head) + Umbreon (Body): Instead of Zero Weaknesses, you can replace Levitate with Regenerator so he heals on every Parting Shot. Same Item and Moves as the Koffing fusion.

IVs and Evs are just max out your HP, Def, and SpD. 0 IVs on Speed preferably so you can take a hit before Parting Shot, preferably.

[undone surge]

defensive for sure

ghost and dark hits 99% of the same thing

[odd kiln]

0 weakness mons are hella overrated imo

and i think the wish cleric builds are too passive to be useable

best poison dark mon is toxapex ttar

has actual power and can pursuit trap stuff

[unborn pine]

Umbreon/Toxapex (reverse) has more bulk
I use that one as a wish passer that heals when it switches

being weak to fighting kinda sucks but it is what it is

Still very bulky either way

Wish and parting are best on it and then it has more options

[odd kiln]

dark water is just not a great typing

its a regen mon whos weak to the two pivot moves thats bad

[obtuse shoal]

Fighting is pretty gone in this game

There is only 1 fighting type you see around, meloetta

[unborn pine]

It can take uturns pretty decently most of the time
And yeah meloetta is the mon I'm talking about

It may be the only good fighting type but it's also very common

[obtuse shoal]

She's not exactly a big threat
But I have seen some really powerful ones
With no guard sing

[unborn pine]

Yeah that's just annoying to play against

I am thinking that there may be a good dark meloetta fusion

[obtuse shoal]

And dynamic punch just throws a wrench into whatever you do

[unborn pine]

Knock Off + CC strong stabs only resisted by fairy which it can u-turn on

[obtuse shoal]

Also
I was using a weezing jirachi
Weezing is so good for will o wisp

Attackers try to swords dance
I send in... Ji/zing
He wisps, and then hazes

It also learns recover

And poison steel with levitate on rain is crazy

[unborn pine]

yeah
Sandslash is a counter but it doesn't wanna switch in on a wisp

[obtuse shoal]

Nah
The problem is that the thing is really passive
No pressure whatsoever

Magic guard or poison heals can just sit on it

[unborn pine]

I just realized they gave hustle to hydreigon
i hate missing but that could be really strong if you do hit

[obtuse shoal]

And since I'm using rain, just some water is enough

[obtuse shoal]

I once used a noivern zoroark

Since there was no custom sprite, they'd just see noivern

[unborn pine]

with illusion ot

[obtuse shoal]

Yes

It was faking as articuno
As they'd both be weak to rocks

It didn't do much
But it was fun fooling people

Actually that's an interesting thing about zoroark I didn't think enough of
Sucker punch

You might think your sweeper is in a good position
But then it gets suckered

[undone surge]

Issue : your using zoroark

[obtuse shoal]

1 good sucker punch when they're not expecting sounds powerful

[undone surge]

well its powerful if it was on a pokemon like a kingambit fusion in nd, but the issue is this is zoroark and like

just dont sugarcoat zoroark it aint doing shit

[spring lagoon]

a bit on the nose

[obtuse shoal]

an interesting thing I've found is that in terms of typing, ground, ghost and electric are really good offensively

So I made a gengar nidoking fusion, and it's a really good wallbreaker

I get really surprised at how hard it is to counter

because because the number of types that resists ghost and ground simultaneously is pretty low

[obtuse shoal]

https://play.pokeathlon.com/#battle-gen9ifnationaldexou-291848-kt152wyic00omt5fubmhr32kt2uu6cqpw
Ok this guy's pretty good

I guess one of the issues is having no good water answer

[undone surge]

biggest issue is the speed stat though

under 100 is rough

getting it in is hard too

the other issue is that it cant run all 3 elemental beams when ur using sball ep

[obtuse shoal]

yeah it's why I had jirachi weezing with uturn, but it's so damn fast it's pointless

[undone surge]

just make it min speed or use a diff thing thats slower

[lost galleon]

It probably helps a lot that shadow ball and earth power both get boosted by sheer force life orb

Also, Gengar would love Nidoking’s coverage moves

Yeah, I can see how that would do well

[undone surge]

Its an ok wallbreaker vs bulkier teams

play it on webs but even if u do play it on webs i think togekiss is better though

[obtuse shoal]

there's steels everywhere though

[undone surge]

epower?

it has tbolt/flame for steel flyings

[obtuse shoal]

yes but not stab

that's the issue here

[undone surge]

its se sheer force boosted

its does like

70% minimum

same goes for nidoking gengar

[obtuse shoal]

it feels like a big issue that there's no fast special ground type

[undone surge]

no?

theres literally like 0 norml special grounds that r good

[obtuse shoal]

there's nidoking

and palossand if you want to get weird

[undone surge]

nidoking is hella mid

its like always ru

[obtuse shoal]

I see why ferrothorn is so good now
it can seed, making the opponent switch
it can stack hazards
and it punishes spin with iron barbs

the bad thing is that it has little recovery. I just saw a ferro exeggutor just for that

[undone surge]

u only use ferro for spikes tbh

i mean it gets knock, leech and stealth rocks too obv

but ur fusing it with smth that usually has knock, recovery or hazards itself

and atp u can use registeel

ig theres also ability ig

[obtuse shoal]

Should ferro use its offenses?

[undone surge]

no

its a support mon

[obtuse shoal]

It doesn't have bad offensive stats
But it doesn't have a good typing for offense

[undone surge]

if u wana use something for offnese use smth better

meloe-p, haxorus, metagross, dnite, mence, ttar, etc.

[obtuse shoal]

Mence there is funny

I legit never been scared of a mence

In this showdown

[undone surge]

its pretty damn mid

the only time i've used it is with aegi/doublade

[obtuse shoal]

I've used it to intimidate will o wisp

But yeah you can give ferro roost now with skarmory or scizor
Or softboiled with exeggutor

And changing practically nothing

[undone surge]

it almost's always gets outclassed by registeel

because the things you would fuse with ferro synergize with registeel more and as i said earlier

u only use ferro over registeel for spikes

basically

[obtuse shoal]

Isn't iron barbs a great ability though

It punishes u turn

And knock off

[undone surge]

i mean yes

but one of the more tier related issues is

that the more used mons usually dont give a shit abt barbs

entei, melo-p, even the pseudos too

i mean sure if u can get the chio thats vnice

but its really not gonna used that often

since its not like ur risking it for a chance of a melo-p cc

and even if ur like ghost/steel, fairy/steel, flying/steel it still competes with aegi, douvlade and registeel, and skarm too

doublade/aegi has spectral and the better bulk/eviolite

registeel has superior stats

skarm has natural recovery so u can fuse it w/ like steelix or smth idk

[obtuse shoal]

To be fair it's not like the steels are there to fight against these big attackers

It's mostly that these entei and meloetta are here because they're good against steels, because steels are good against everything else

[undone surge]

i mean yeah

but most physical attackers rn fuck steels up so usually steels r used for the special attackers rn

[obtuse shoal]

Honestly I have no idea how to break them. A good entei might break some of your water types

[undone surge]

so aegi, doublade and registeel have better special bulk

[obtuse shoal]

There's also jirachi too

It has recover and u turn and more

[undone surge]

yeah

its competition is rough

[obtuse shoal]

Btw I made fun of meloetta before but today I spend the afternoon getting pummeled by it

My main counter was trying to burn it with jirachi weezing
But that didn't work

No guard monkey paw is crazy rn too

[undone surge]

annoying bug

[obtuse shoal]

Not just annoying
You have sing turned to spore
You have dynamic punch always hitting, critting and confusing

Some mons just can't be walled like this

[undone surge]

meh

as long as u have a genuine good defensive mon

its fine

[dim sail]

BRO WTFFF IS THISSSS

[dim sail]

.

[outer badge]

Im not too initiated in the meta (I played a few matches in the very start), what's the deal behind specifically entei's presence in the meta?

[odd kiln]

it clicks vcreate and does a billion

[pure breach]

that's an exaggeration, it usually only does 100%

[odd kiln]

My bad.

[solar kettle]

pretty bad move, stealth rock easily does more

[undone surge]

so true

[fluid stag]

contrary is banned in nat dex?

[odd kiln]

yes

[cyan rock]

@pure breach

[pure breach]

On it

Got it

[lost galleon]

It’s just a game why you have to get so mad?

[sonic orchid]

Is there just like a Pokemon showdown website but for Infinite Fusion?

[warped blade]

yes...

its in the pins

[sonic orchid]

You sure? I can’t find it

Either that or I’m blind

[warped blade]

the second option http://play.pokeathlon.com/

[sonic orchid]

Thanks

[serene arch]

Anyone realise that AGGRON gets QUIVER DANCE on showdown

Bros been learning tap

[pure breach]

He gets that in the game too :)

[serene arch]

WHYYYYYY

[pure breach]

It’s not that bad

As to the actual reasoning I have no idea

[undone surge]

from what i've heard might be wrong though is cause lairon is based on a bug or something

[opal fiber]

"because it's funny"

[unborn pine]

True

[covert forge]

does ash-greninja being legal in the builder mean were getting fusions? cuz thatd be crazy, his stats are nuts

[odd kiln]

no its illegal

[unborn pine]

its a bug

[maiden obsidian]

could be worse he could have belly drum instead 🤦‍♂️

[unborn pine]

belly drum is banned

and it would make more sense than quiver dance :3

[maiden obsidian]

sadly i remember the days of volcarona quiver dance substitute baton pass

😭

[solar frigate]

Someone took my name in showdown 😔

[vital sand]

TF really lmao

[radiant rivet]

Is pursuit banned?

Because it appearently does not exist in Gen 7, alongside Spectral thief

[dull plaza]

No that’s a bug, they do exist and are allowed

[radiant rivet]

neat

[undone surge]

Jusr ping dunscy if that happens

[lime ocean]

does the damage calculator have the teams of the gym leaders of the game?

[pure breach]

No

the damage calculator lets you put your own sets, and it's meant to be for your own competitive use

If you have the sets used by the gym leaders, you can use them

[hallow kite]

no more no guard mankey's paw...

melo-p will survive

[unborn pine]

I dislike Melo P as a Pokémon but what it brings to comp with fusions is really great

Makes me wonder what other obvious roles like fast physical fighting type is if Dex kinda missing that could be fixed with 1 Mon addition?

[opal fiber]

What's wrong with melo p as a pokemon

[tiny wadi]

Is there some like for this infinite fusion showdown??

[solid pine]

#showdown-general

[tiny wadi]

I meant a Link

[tiny wadi]

Nevermind

[solid pine]

litterly the channel description

[tiny wadi]

thanks

[unborn pine]

I'm still salty
(Mainly the similarity with kirlia and also their base game freak sprites are so bad)

but for comp yeah melo p is cool

Even if it doesn't really have move variety as a knock cc uturn bot

but i dont mind that

[hallow kite]

ngl it's almost too good
unless you're using stall you almost have to go out of your way to not use it

[unborn pine]

That is kinda true

[hallow kite]

*almost too good

[hallow kite]

I have been getting a lot of use out of swapping uturn for swords dance

which sounds funny but I've won a lot of games off swords dancing on obvious defensive switches and going to town

[unborn pine]

Fairy types are common at least
Probably why some use metagross melo

also iron head serene grace but that's mean

[hallow kite]

metagross melo is hilarious lol

iron head flinch...

[opal fiber]

Metaetta

[unborn pine]

fish for atk boosts or fish for flinches, your choice

[hallow kite]

a more specific melo-p fusion I've liked using is feraligatr/melo-p

which in rain is very, very funny

[unborn pine]

setup?

[hallow kite]

setup is nice but it's not reliant on it
120 attack and 111 speed w/ sheer force life orb rain liquidation is great

[unborn pine]

with coverage like ice or thunder punch
for bulky dragon or water types

[opal fiber]

Sheer Orb is always goated

Nidoking my glorious purple-back Goat

[hallow kite]

ya
although honestly stab close combat is usually good enough

[hallow kite]

Snorfable (Snorlax) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat / Unaware / Magic Guard
Fusion: Clefable
EVs: 252 HP
IVs: 0 Atk

• Moonblast
• Soft-Boiled

set is incomplete because you can do whatever comes to mind from here on out pretty much

cosmic power, knockoff/stealth rock/toxic, coverage, etc

[undone surge]

seems like an ok enough vcreate switchin thats not a fat water

[hallow kite]

if you run thick fat it's great at that job
but you really want to click cosmic power sets and have a whale of a time

[undone surge]

yeah ofc thats what i meant

cheese is always the best way to beat a random person

[obtuse shoal]

I'm thinking that a fighting type with knock off can be so cheesy

especially if we're talking no guard dynamic punches

[undone surge]

No guard is so bad now that mankeys paw is fixed now

[undone surge]

but idk why you'd say this knock off is just universal and gives fighting types a way to hit ghosts hard idk why its cheesy

[obtuse shoal]

more because knock off basically forces some mons to not come in

and dynamic punch punishes that

[odd kiln]

ng dynamic punch is memey

[halcyon fractal]

Isn't Swagger better at this?

since it's independent of your ability to attack

you just set up entry hazards on top of it

and then go for a super tanky fusion like blissey + dusclops with eviolite

(idk if they've got swagger in their movepool, prob not - just an example)

Mostly mentioning it because I feel like Machamp is better off fused with a real stat-stick like Slaking

(btw idk what's banned or restricted in IF showdown - just cooking off what I know)

[odd kiln]

no bc swagger does little damage while making the opp do a lot to you if they break confusion which is more likely than not

[halcyon fractal]

not if special attacker

[odd kiln]

so at best they do 5% to themselves

[radiant rivet]

valuable chip

what are some good knock absorbers?
Gliscor is the obvious one, but besides that I kinda struggle to come up with answers

I know magic guard clef is sometimes considered, but even it doesnt like losing its Item(Unless its toxic orb)

[halcyon fractal]

you'd be surprised at how much swagger causes SpA sweepers to hit themselves for, it's that and Foul Play which causes them to optimize for 0 Atk IVs

[odd kiln]

you know what does even more chip

dynamic punch

[halcyon fractal]

that's if you're a no guard bulky physical attacker

[odd kiln]

that was the original mon being discussed

[halcyon fractal]

right - but it also has drawbacks

im guessing volcarona is pretty common, so flame body can be very common

[odd kiln]

swagger never makes sense bc you can just make a mon that hits the opponent instead of making them hit themselves for varying dmg 33% of the time

volc is banned

[halcyon fractal]

yeah you know what

im forgetting confusion isn't cracked anymore

you're right

[odd kiln]

yeah it aint gen 6 anymore

[halcyon fractal]

forgot confusion was the whole reason swagger was cancer

Dynamic punch is probably the best move a no guard pokemon can use

but the reason I was so against it is mostly because I don't remember the last time I've seen a machamp perform

but in IF you can eliminate a lot of Machamp's weaknesses

[odd kiln]

you use lycanrocm meloettap

bc it also gets sing

[halcyon fractal]

Do you mind if I bring up the point from the other channel? I'm not convinced this mon isn't disgusting
https://www.fusiondex.org/361.455/

• Access to parting shot, baneful bunker, toxic, toxic spikes
• 80/124/94 defenses with ground/water typing leaves only 1 weakness, 4 resistances, and 1 immunity
• Regenerator/Intimidate

[odd kiln]

bunker does nothing

[halcyon fractal]

bugged?

[odd kiln]

no its just not good

the fusion might be ok ig

regen def pivot

[halcyon fractal]

what kinds of defensive pivots define the IF metagame?

i.e. what is it comparing with?

[odd kiln]

jirachitangrowth, jirachipex, registeelmoltres, etc

[radiant rivet]

jirachi pex?

never seen that one

ttar pex sure

[odd kiln]

jirachipex was more used in boomburst era

[halcyon fractal]

pixilate boomburst doesn't do well into a mon like that yea

[odd kiln]

still good though

[halcyon fractal]

What's the current "team to beat"?

or team(s)

i.e. what strategies define the meta

[radiant rivet]

Gliscor
Clefable
Entei

those are kinda always there

as fusion material

gliscor and clefable are utility monsters that dont die and entei has v-create so it hits hars

[halcyon fractal]

they gave entei vcreate holy

[radiant rivet]

Jup

it used to have espeed to

but that was taken

[halcyon fractal]

btw when I say "team to beat", I'm asking is there an equivalent to like VGC'16s Big Six?

[radiant rivet]

I can list a few

[halcyon fractal]

(P Groud, Xerneas, Mega Kanga, Mega Sala, Smeargle, Talonflame)

[radiant rivet]

also big 16?
Aint that a bit much

[halcyon fractal]

VGC 2016

[radiant rivet]

thats almost 3 teams to beat

you aint beating all of them

[halcyon fractal]

the big six was basically 6 pokemon that took up like

60%+ of the VGC 2016 meta

[radiant rivet]

Chalk?

Or what ever it was called

but yeah metagame pokemon, right?
gimme a sec

[halcyon fractal]

pre-nerf aerialate Salamence, pre-nerf galewings Talonflame, pre-nerf Dark Void Smeargle, pre nerf Parental bond mega kanga
Xerneas and Groudy were just doing their thing

[radiant rivet]

Gliscor with : Snorlax, Rhyperior

Entei with : Sandslash, Haxorus, Meloetta Pirueqe,

Jirachi/Tangrowth.

Alakazm/Electrode(Magic guard Mind blow is as dumb as it sounds)

Clefable + Ferro/Registeel/Bastiondon also mew

Dragonite/Ursaring.

Slowlbro/Donphan

Ttar/toxapex

Slowbro/Doublade.

There is alot more

[hallow kite]

• Rain is very good
• meloetta p fusions, though those are pretty common so you can’t check all of them. Just keep “need a good fighting resist” in mind
• Dragonite espeeding
• Doublade fusions because eviolite spectral thief neuters a lot of mobs
• Hawlucha flying gem, which isn’t the best pokemon but so many teams forget it exists and get bowled over by a ho team because of it

[hallow kite]

Don’t forget ninetales with entei

That is very very funny

[halcyon fractal]

yeah I saw there was some discussion about moving Drought/Drizzle to AG

because things like Leafeon/Entei with chlorophyll are disgusting

[hallow kite]

Drought in my experience has been far more manageable

[halcyon fractal]

or octillery/kingdra with swift swim

[radiant rivet]

You havent face chlorophyl eruptions have you?

[hallow kite]

This is no longer legal tbf

[halcyon fractal]

might be the exact discussion that made it illegal lmao

[hallow kite]

I have and did alright thanks to either snorbat or my espeed mon

[radiant rivet]

Or right

oh

[halcyon fractal]

eruption and water spout were scary back in gen 3

less so now

[radiant rivet]

why is sandrush allowed with sandstream then?

[odd kiln]

its technically legal but you have to set manual rain for it

[odd kiln]

sand doesnt boost any type

[hallow kite]

No ones figured out how to make something broken out of that

[halcyon fractal]

yeah its a complex ban of drizzle + swift swim

[halcyon fractal]

Excadrill doesn't exist to do silly things in the sand yet

[radiant rivet]

We have entei sandslash

with vcreate and thousand arrows

[halcyon fractal]

ground fire hard loses to anything spitting in its general direction

aqua jet crushes

[hallow kite]

The reason I say this is because rain has plenty of offensive options but is also fantastic defensively

[radiant rivet]

Ok fair enough

[halcyon fractal]

and feraligatr is probably fairly common

yeah water type is really disgusting

fire type is too but it's eked out by water

[radiant rivet]

if only it wasnt rock weak

[odd kiln]

there arent any good aqua jet users and if you encounter one as enteisandslash you just switch

[hallow kite]

Funny enough not really, if you want priority Dragonite fusions usually out damage that

[halcyon fractal]

rock weak isn't actually too much of a big deal

what are they gonna do, miss you with stone edge?

[radiant rivet]

Stealth rock exist

[halcyon fractal]

this isnt vgc where rock slide is a menace to society

[hallow kite]

If I was afraid of enteislash I’d run quagsire/steeled or a slowbro/doublade or the likes

[radiant rivet]

have fun losing 25 % for simply showing up

Thats why I run slowbro/doublade

[halcyon fractal]

galewings defog clears

[radiant rivet]

this is gen 7

so nerfed gale wings

which means with rocks already up you lose galewings

[halcyon fractal]

i see i see

i never did read how they nerfed galewings lol

[radiant rivet]

Only at full hp it worka

good for tailwind

not much elss

[halcyon fractal]

i just knew that one day i saw talonflame everywhere and the next I never saw it

even in RU where I tool around from time to time

[radiant rivet]

Yeah if big pikachu says play time is over, then its over

[halcyon fractal]

not for inciniroar

[radiant rivet]

It has been told to play more

thats why they buffed it

[halcyon fractal]

they'll see inciniroar on 80% of teams in vgc'19 and be like "seems a little weak... buff it"

[radiant rivet]

Gamefreak has a thing for muscular cats?

[halcyon fractal]

the furries have infiltrated GF

[radiant rivet]

I think they were always there

[halcyon fractal]

probably even before the term "furry" applied to them yeah

[radiant rivet]

although they really hit the fan with gen 3

[halcyon fractal]

I'm gonna cook with Porygon2

[radiant rivet]

I am using clef /porygon 2 atm

its a really good spd wall

since No. 1 Special attacker Nidoking often forgoes poison attack

[halcyon fractal]

no poison type moves when fairies exist? crazy

tbf we don't have the meaner fairies you see in standard

I'm assuming garchomp is too slow for how hard hitting and fast the meta is?

[radiant rivet]

Its usuallt boltbeam + earthpower + move of the fusion

shadowball/Moonblast/Photon geyser

[odd kiln]

boltbeam is only good if one of ur stab is bolt or beam

[halcyon fractal]

tell that to scarf genesect

in gen 5 ubers

[odd kiln]

this isnt gen5 ubers

[halcyon fractal]

I'm assuming STAB is mission-critical currently?

[odd kiln]

if ur togekiss nidoking for example ice beam is redundant

and tbolt doesnt really do anything

[halcyon fractal]

you'd be looking more for like flamethrower yeah

unless it's the ground flying version

[odd kiln]

then you just moonblast

[halcyon fractal]

even still flamethrower to cover ground immune enemies

[radiant rivet]

I am just stating what I have been observing.
What would you run on Nidoking/Togekiss then?

besides earth power and moonblast?

[odd kiln]

flamethrower/fire blast

then plot/tspike/softboiled

[radiant rivet]

why not ice beam?

[halcyon fractal]

what do you hit with ice beam that isn't hit by your dual stabs

[radiant rivet]

with all the gliscor fusion runnig around I feel like ut would have some value

[odd kiln]

you do like 80 to gliscor already

[halcyon fractal]

the difference is one shotting gliscor with ice beam versus getting walled by steel flying

[radiant rivet]

Then why fire?

[odd kiln]

to hit jirachitangrowth

[radiant rivet]

I feel like beating glicor is more inportant

[halcyon fractal]

you already beat gliscor

2hko with moonblast

[odd kiln]

doing 80 is beating gliscor

[radiant rivet]

How much does Earthpower do tho jira?

[halcyon fractal]

walls work if they can take 5+ turns from you

[odd kiln]

ep does like 35

and then it leaves

[radiant rivet]

with av?

[halcyon fractal]

and they're ok at 3-4

[odd kiln]

with av

[radiant rivet]

Ah so with out it would be?

[odd kiln]

like 45

[radiant rivet]

what about chandelure/Nidoking

[odd kiln]

too slow

[halcyon fractal]

slow

[radiant rivet]

I mean its a wallbreaker

Arent they allowed to be slow?

[halcyon fractal]

won't break walls if dead

[radiant rivet]

Stallbreaker srry

[odd kiln]

its harder to do that when it loses to any offensive mon

[halcyon fractal]

i mean yeah but that's 1 for 1 countering JiTa

if they have no JiTa it's 5v6

[odd kiln]

chandelurenidoking would be ghost ground so its not really much different

[radiant rivet]

it hits harder

[halcyon fractal]

or fire poison which mega loses to ground

[odd kiln]

with 80 bp shadow ball

as opposed to 95 moonblast with plot tacked on top

[radiant rivet]

Its more immediate in its power

does not need setup

honestly which is stronger?
Togekiss/Nidoking moonblast
or
Chandelure/Nidoking shadowball?

[odd kiln]

togekiss doesnt need setup either but if it wants to break through super fat special walls it can

chandelure cant

[radiant rivet]

mew/nidoking?
Qd is one heck of a drug

[odd kiln]

perhaps

[radiant rivet]

also photon geyser

to beat unaware

Still looking for knock absorbers btw

[halcyon fractal]

maybe an unburden mon

idk if sticky hold is in the game

lots to dedicate to just stopping knock tho

the reason why knock is such a problem is because after Z moves and Mega rotated out, the knock buffs make it the premier dark STAB

[radiant rivet]

muk exist

[odd kiln]

ph is a knock absorber

[radiant rivet]

ph?

[halcyon fractal]

you're guaranteed one round of 130 bp dark before STAB

[odd kiln]

poison heal

[halcyon fractal]

yeah

[odd kiln]

knock boosts 1.5 so its 97.5

[radiant rivet]

oh yeah but besides glicor

[halcyon fractal]

since item doesn't matter after poison

same with Guts

after burn, item doesn't matter

• most guts mons use protect

[radiant rivet]

even those are weak to knock before they activat3

[halcyon fractal]

yeah

[radiant rivet]

I mean something that switches in no matter what

[halcyon fractal]

unburden

sticky hold

you're taking a strategic L to counter knock

that's what being meta means

[radiant rivet]

Unburden means you agency to activate that boost on your own terms

and once again you only have muk as sticky hold

I like muk, but it aint it

[halcyon fractal]

id say prankster sub but a knock pokemon is probably dark type

[odd kiln]

you can sub on dark types

[radiant rivet]

Its usually a defensive pivot

so jiragrowth
Ttar pex.
Gliscor

or clef

[halcyon fractal]

but the issue you're talking about is trying to switch into knock

but knock punishes switching

[radiant rivet]

yup

[odd kiln]

some mg mon is fine to switch into knock

or regen

[radiant rivet]

it also punishes staying in

mg mon?

[halcyon fractal]

choice mons who have already done their job would work

[radiant rivet]

magic guard i gueszz

[halcyon fractal]

you could also do sheer force entrainment lmao

but then you're dealing with a menace

[radiant rivet]

what does that do?

[halcyon fractal]

passes the sheer force ability to the pokemon which negates the secondary effects of their moves

[radiant rivet]

Oh my gox

god

[odd kiln]

sf does not affect knock

[radiant rivet]

oh come on

[halcyon fractal]

gross

[radiant rivet]

thats just bs

[halcyon fractal]

there's torment

[radiant rivet]

justified?

[halcyon fractal]

justified yeah

but youll still lose your item

item is usually worth more than just +1 atk

[radiant rivet]

Weakness policy?

that procs before knock right?

has the same issue as unburden tho

[halcyon fractal]

yeah

they get 1.5x bp

but you still eat the item

[radiant rivet]

f it plus 3 in once turn with justified and weakness polixy

[halcyon fractal]

yeah but justified limits you a lot

[radiant rivet]

Oh it doez

[halcyon fractal]

just stick with WP sweeper threat

as in like not many pokemon have justified

and +3 isnt a whole lot scarier than +2

[radiant rivet]

tail glow mananphy?

[halcyon fractal]

theyre both "please get this creature away from me"

[radiant rivet]

But and +2 you can get it off and +3 you get burned to a crisp

[halcyon fractal]

the point is

justified limits you to:
Arcanine absol lucario gallade

growlithe if you're feeling freaky

unless you're doing gen 9 OU instead of gen 7

[radiant rivet]

no gen 7 it is

and yeah it is memey

but it would be hilarioua

[halcyon fractal]

you could cook something with a WP justified arca

but like how is that worth skipping flash fire or intimidate

[radiant rivet]

Honestly intimidate seems kinda mid here in this metagame

I see it like never

[halcyon fractal]

intimidate is fairly underrated

[odd kiln]

intim is good

youve just never seen mence doublade

[radiant rivet]

why isnt it spammed then?

[halcyon fractal]

it's not exciting

[radiant rivet]

Oh I did once

[odd kiln]

people havent discovered it

[halcyon fractal]

• people don't really feel how broken cutting attack by one stage is

[radiant rivet]

Maybe regen is more consistent?

[halcyon fractal]

mence duoblade is cool but have you SEEN the spritework on klinkmence?

[odd kiln]

no

[halcyon fractal]

https://www.fusiondex.org/337.336/

look at this absolute digimon

[radiant rivet]

And there are a lot of good special attackers right now?

I wanna pet it

[halcyon fractal]

(also putting Shift Gear on a pokemon like that is gross)

[radiant rivet]

It honestly is totally fine

I fought one today

[odd kiln]

71/91 is bad

[halcyon fractal]

as a fusion i think it gets iron bash

[odd kiln]

and most klinklangs get walled by waters

[radiant rivet]

double Iron bash?

[odd kiln]

dib is banned

[halcyon fractal]

i figured it would be lol

disgusting move

[radiant rivet]

understandable with scizor existing

[halcyon fractal]

gear grind is still pretty good tho

[radiant rivet]

It is

Kling klang just isnt

Its decent

[halcyon fractal]

yea

[radiant rivet]

but not the goat

[halcyon fractal]

being walled by JiPex is rough

[radiant rivet]

Doesnt salamence get fire movea?

[halcyon fractal]

water

[radiant rivet]

Eq?

[halcyon fractal]

you'd be looking at EQ

[radiant rivet]

Yea

[odd kiln]

any water walls it

[radiant rivet]

Boost passt it?

[halcyon fractal]

but yeah i dont think there's a lot of flying STAB

[odd kiln]

cant you get scald burned

[radiant rivet]

So there is a chance?

[halcyon fractal]

ill just get lucky

[odd kiln]

try boosting past slowbrosteelix

itll kill you if not burn you first

[radiant rivet]

I prefer slowbrodoublade

[halcyon fractal]

BroLix cooks tho

[radiant rivet]

Slowbrosteelix?

[halcyon fractal]

yeah steel water

probably in the ballpark of 180 defense

[radiant rivet]

Not waterground?

[halcyon fractal]

is it?

[radiant rivet]

and shouldnt its attack be abysmall?

[halcyon fractal]

yeah it is

water ground

[radiant rivet]

since you know steelix?

[halcyon fractal]

85 SpA is pretty decent for a wall

[radiant rivet]

oh wow

[halcyon fractal]

slowbro has crazy SpA

[radiant rivet]

i mean its decent but not kill salamce klingklank in two turns crazy, right?

[halcyon fractal]

@odd kiln Thoughts on Metagross/Dhelmise in trick room comps

steelworker is 1.5x steel move damage, + STAB and possibly band

grass coverage on 133 base atk

[odd kiln]

possible

[radiant rivet]

Struggles with fire coverage

[halcyon fractal]

so did Kartana

[odd kiln]

metagrossdhelmise is just kinda weird bc 4mss

[radiant rivet]

because jiragrowth is so common

[halcyon fractal]

4mss?

[radiant rivet]

4 moveslotsydrom

[halcyon fractal]

ah

[radiant rivet]

you get checked by one wall no matter what

[halcyon fractal]

yeah and since some of these walls have even lower base speed than you

gyro ball isn't that good

[radiant rivet]

I feel like the meta at the moment is to tank all the progress making moves(Knock/Scald/Volt-turn) with your own defensive pivot while wearing down their defensive pivot, till your cleaner of choice can come out and play.

[halcyon fractal]

How useful is a move like heavy slam in the meta?

[radiant rivet]

you dont hit a lot with it

so not a lot?

[halcyon fractal]

i see i see

I think I'm parsing why Incineroar isn't as good in smogon singles as it is in VGC

[undone surge]

No shit incineroars worse in singles than vgc, it isnt rocket science

[halcyon fractal]

there are better ways to say that but yeah, it's because recovery and hazards are more important in singles. Stall is way more common in the casual format

so having a support pivot like incineroar phase in and out with intimidate is less meaningful when the tempo loss of switching out is way lower

on the flip side, Lando-T is harder for incini to replace because his more offensive role means he's better at pressuring, and in a format where matches are (usually) decided faster, the lower bulk is fine

[opal fiber]

What Melo-P fusions are common rn besides Entei

I need sprite ideas

[hallow kite]

Feraligatr!

[opal fiber]

I'll have to find something for a feraletta

We love Sheer Orb

[urban nebula]

https://www.fusiondex.org/368.287/

Is Haxvoir that good? Despite having bad stats.

[odd kiln]

it is not

[urban nebula]

Thats ashame

Because her typing has better advantage

Especially dragon type

[odd kiln]

advantage over what

[undone surge]

advantage of getting one tapped by fairies

[radiant rivet]

Getting dragons resistances I guess?

is dragon a good defensive typing in this game?

[undone surge]

i mean its not like it wants to switch in

vcreate

sacred fire

scald

[undone surge]

it can be good when used appropriately

[radiant rivet]

what would be an appropiate defensive dragon?

Lanturn goodra?
in rain ofc

[undone surge]

salablade is decent at hard walling most physical attackers barring pixilate espeed and strong knock off users

[radiant rivet]

Tbh I feel like thats just Doublade + eviolite doing most of the heavy liftinh

[undone surge]

you could use hydreigon with a bulky steel/poison and get a levitate dragon/poison-steel type, it has uturn and roost so it'll be fine

[radiant rivet]

Speaking of poison whats better :
Ttar pex
or
Umbreon pex

Umbreon does give parting shot

[undone surge]

but u cant use av

also less overall stats

[radiant rivet]

Its spd is actually highet

whats more important : pivoting or Av?

[odd kiln]

av

[radiant rivet]

may I ask why?

I thought keeping momentum is really importany

[undone surge]

so u dont die to strong special breakers as easily

[radiant rivet]

ah

[undone surge]

because fusions have a lot of stupid combos yknow

[radiant rivet]

Oh I know

But I also know how annoying regen+ pivot spam is

So I was curious if maybe Umbreon was better than Ttar in this circumstance

[odd kiln]

cant spam pivot if ur taking <50 each time you switch in

[radiant rivet]

So the reason jiragrowth is so good is because its a regen pivot that can abuse the Av, right?

[odd kiln]

yes

[undone surge]

with a good movepool and statspread

and type ofc

[radiant rivet]

would a slowtwin with forretress be good?

Slowking for example

[odd kiln]

bulk is lacking

[radiant rivet]

even with av?

[odd kiln]

yes

[radiant rivet]

is it cause of the typing?

[odd kiln]

no its spd bulk is just not as good

doesnt help that it has to use volt switch

[radiant rivet]

it has 10 more Spd while having 12 less hp than jiragrowth

[undone surge]

hey it can use scald!!!!!!!!

[radiant rivet]

and more defense

[odd kiln]

and that its defensive utility is not good (spinblocked frighteningly easily)

[radiant rivet]

oh right what is a good spinner

[odd kiln]

def doesnt matter when you get hit se by the most common physical moves

[radiant rivet]

But is the 12 hp less that bad?

[undone surge]

not rly but it has a worse type for av regen switching than ttarpex and jigrowth

[odd kiln]

mainly slowkingprobopass is just better

[undone surge]

Tbh spinning in general is just sketchy to do since theres no amazing mons

[odd kiln]

slowbro donphan has worked for me

[radiant rivet]

I am using quag forretress atm

its memey

would slowking hydreigon work as a regen pivot?

The typing aint bad, stats arent awfull either

[odd kiln]

why hydreigon

[radiant rivet]

its the only dragon that gets uturn

[undone surge]

ok but why water dragon specifically anyways

[radiant rivet]

to synergise with jiragrowth?

[odd kiln]

cteams rain and sun ig

[undone surge]

great fraud

[odd kiln]

🤯

[radiant rivet]

would

Rhyperior/Gliscor
pex/Ttar
Jiragrowth
Slowkinghydreigon

Be a good defensive core?

[odd kiln]

no ice resist

[undone surge]

i mean ice physical attackers are more uncommon anyways ttar pex and jigrowth would probably be good enough...

[radiant rivet]

would arcanine be a good addition?

Ice resist and intimidate.

dont know what to fuse it with tho

[radiant rivet]

can necrozium be knocked off?

(The item that allows necrozma to transform aftet using photon geyser(

[undone surge]

probably not

[radiant rivet]

would necrozma be a good knock absorber then?

[warped veldt]

Psychic moment

[hallow kite]

You take full Knock off damage every time

[warped veldt]

Most I've seen of Necrozma is with Mew as a Quiver Dance setup sweeper.

[undone surge]

is it coded like that?

[hallow kite]

It should be but I was going off how sticky hold interactions work

[undone surge]

and how do you know its not based on items such as arceus plates w/ arceus

well i guess ur guessing

[undone surge]

but in the end, are you really using unecro to absorb knock's lmfao

[hallow kite]

I mean I have no clue because it works 90% of the time but yes what you said above

[warped veldt]

"If used on a Pokémon that cannot lose its held item — such as a Pokémon holding its corresponding Mega Stone — this move will not receive the boost."

[undone surge]

the issue is that its a custom made item so who knows hows its coded and whether its accurate to the games or not lol

[warped veldt]

I assume they'd try to go for accuracy tbh

[lost galleon]

If you really want to use Forretress as part of an AV regenerator pivot fusion, Reuniclus will give you much better HP and special defense

[undone surge]

psychic type is bad though 😔

[radiant rivet]

I wouldnt say bad, more like underwhelming

[radiant rivet]

is Vaporeon/Togekiss decent?

It has good special bulk 100hp/108spd

reliable recovery,amazing typing, and Serene grace Scald means no physical Attacker wants to switch in.
You could also go for Waterabsorb tbh.

it can even boost with nastyplot, and has aura sphere to his steels

[hallow kite]

Nasty plot would be a meme option here, you’d go double stab / recovery / defog or some other utility move

Scald burns hit steels enough

It’s not a bad fusion but it is objectively worse than vaporeon/clefable

[radiant rivet]

how is it worse than clef?

[hallow kite]

Clefable does the exact same thing except with a bigger and better move pool

And much better abilities

The single advantage togekiss has over Clefable is defog but that isn’t nearly enough to give them parity

Vaporeon/Clefable also has slightly better physical bulk

[hallow kite]

It can even use calm mind for a version of suicune setup sets

[radiant rivet]

Serene grace does have that Bs factor

[unborn pine]

Depending on the team you are using it on you may want to maximize it being able to stay on the field which means more opportunities to scald burn

clefable just has really good abilities

[odd kiln]

who is in turn a worse clefable toxapex

[hallow kite]

Clefable does have that but like
Is scald (a move you click often) having a higher burn chance better than knock off and magic guard/unaware

[odd kiln]

serene grace only really gets crazy when you have flinch

or if ur dire claw

[hallow kite]

To vapor/clef’s minor defense they have a notable difference in total special bulk but overall yes

[odd kiln]

water fairy is more so a physdef typing anyway

[radiant rivet]

What makes a typing Physdef or Spdef?
Is there a list or something?

I am assuming it comes from which side the typs most often attack from.

Since ghost and Psychic is more often Special any Dual Dark typ would be considered a Spd typ.
(Is this different here because of spectral thief?)

[hallow kite]

The typing it resists and the moves of the typing it resists