sona.pona.la

[split grail]

wthe the heck do you mean

[upbeat summit]

we're up to 311

on other wikis the wanted pages get, like, exponential

but that hasn't happened here (yet?) despite it reaching a similar size to some others i'm familiar with

[split grail]

ahh

[grand marten]

do you or have you ever used any deprecated words (`iki`, `jalan`, `kan`, `kapa`, `pasila` (not `palisa`), etc.) or constructions (`li pi`, `poka` as a preposition, etc.)?
(deprecated as in not in common use at the time you were learning)
:zawen: yes and i still do
:zlili: yes, but not anymore
:zala: no

why?
:zkepeken: i thought they were cool/useful and shouldn't have been deprecated
:zsona: i thought i was supposed to use them (e.g. the teaching materials i used taught me them as regular words)
:zku: i wanted to use all the words in a given set (ku, linku, etc)
:zante: other (elaborate in #toki-pi-sona-kulupu)

ni li pona seme

[split grail]

pona

include jalan too ig

and the one other i frogr

ye

[split grail]

this is the only actual one I've seen (it's in an issue of lipu tenpo)

[noble gulch]

pilin mi la ala. jan li wile kepeken ijo nasa la ona li kepeken. mi wile ala len e sona pona. mi ken toki e ni lon sitelen: "ijo ni li tan tenpo pini la jan ala li kepeken ona." taso ni li wile ala e len tawa pilin mi.

kin la mi pilin e ni: sona pona o toki ala e nasin pona. ona o toki e nasin ale, taso ona o toki e ni kin: "jan pi mute lili taso li kepeken nasin ni. jan pi mute suli a li kepeken nasin ante ni."

jan mute li wile lawa e nasin toki pi jan ante la ni li ike tawa mi, taso kin la mi sona e ni: jan pi wile utala li toki utala mute lon tomo ni e toki mi lon sona pona lon tenpo pini. ni la mi pali e wile pi jan ni: ona li toki kepeken kalama wawa.

[split grail]

page request, too lazy to go there
how to distinguish good language/speech and toki pona

short answer you don't
long answer you could other phrases like language by Sonja etc etc

[regal panther]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Common_lexicalizations#Phrases_featured_in_pu

[split grail]

yeah that

so just a redirect maybe

[regal panther]

also i havent been to this page recently

i am not a fan of everything being crammed into a table, it just makes it less readable

ive noticed a trend where stuff that was written in prose has been condensed

[split grail]

for this, I understand condensing it

because it's literally a list of terms

[split grail]

but in general, yeah, sometimes prose is better

see [[1984]], it could be in prose

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/1984

[regal panther]

but before it listed the terms with explanations and translations

[split grail]

wait let me actually read it

[regal panther]

for common lexicalizations

https://sona.pona.la/w/index.php?title=Common_lexicalizations&oldid=393

ok i remembered incorrectly but this format i think while worse in this version couldve been improved on

if the examples were more explanatory

[split grail]

yeah dkdhkdhd

if anything, a "Notes" column can always help

[regal panther]

i mean technically sure but still i dont like the look of a table here personally

[split grail]

the alternative is worse

especially for a long long list of items

[regal panther]

i do agree that this specific one is really bad

but with more effort put in it could be better

ill try and propose something later

[split grail]

make a user page with what you mean

[hot trout]

FAQ-wise, "how many people speak toki pona", with a dedicated article that goes through the calculations found in the ISO application, maybe

[split grail]

^^

[mighty seal]

is "1,000 to 5,000" a good answer?

[split grail]

at least 3

[hot trout]

oh, it is, but I was thinking more about how we get to these numbers - because it's a tricky question

[regal panther]

a common method is taking an average of different toki pona communities

[mighty seal]

our low bar is whatever the higher of the two (most recent census and kala asi's nimi study) ?

and the high bar is current membership of ma pona pi toki pona ?

i'm not a scientist, but that would make me want to say "2,000 to 11,000"

"speak toki pona or at least are interested in toki pona"

[split grail]

low bar ~850

[mighty seal]

i dunno what are the best practices in counting the size of a language community

[split grail]

@staticians hii

[winter sparrow]

Fermi estimate is probably a good starting point

[split grail]

Fermi? for me? 🥺

[hot trout]

the ISO application calculates and correlates community size with how many people are likely to actually speak toki pona, coming to the conclusion:

between 500 and 5000 speakers, or approximately 1600
based on the community growing to twice the size, that would bring us to 1000-10000 speakers, or approximately 3200
(geometric mean)
these might be conservative estimates, it's not easy to get a good picture with reliable numbers

[upbeat summit]

That's mentioned in the last paragraph of [[Duality]] (which i'm still not sure is a good pagename but i can't think of anything else)

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Duality

[upbeat summit]

or exactly 20

[dark tree]

iirc @safe stag dealt with this or something similar on his website

[split grail]

can we have this

[safe stag]

ni li tan ala nasin sitelen SSK li tan ilo Firefox anu ilo Chrome
sina wile pona e ni la o lukin e nasin ilo font-feature-settings https://helpx.adobe.com/fonts/using/open-type-syntax.html

[split grail]

aaa

sina wawa

[split grail]

nimi "MOKU" la

if I charge my phone, is that moku, is the charging cord ilo moku

[noble gulch]

Yes

Actually that's my preferred idiom for charging

It's a metaphor, but I think it's fine to use metaphors in Toki Pona. That's a hot take, though: a lot of people prefer more literal expressions.

[split grail]

lanpan namako

[upbeat summit]

sona li pona la

[split grail]

8 core and widespread words left.............

[split grail]

for [[pona.la]], can we have images for all the websites

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/pona.la

[split grail]

except sona pona because we don't have one yet :(

they are all SVGs, so I don't know how to get them

[grand marten]

https://github.com/pona-la/tomo/tree/main/_includes

[split grail]

ah...

sina pona

hmm, do we have, just the icon perhaps

no background aa

I am feeling aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAANUSEMEmailMahjong

should it have a page ehehehe

[split grail]

bug: in {{cite web}} if a |title= contains the character ], it ends abruptly

[upbeat summit]

honestly? maybe

[split grail]

I want to somehow include multiple {{pu def}}s and {{ku data}}s under a single article, how do I do it without it being comically long

[upbeat summit]

which

[split grail]

like

[[Colours]] and [[Personal pronouns]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Colours
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Personal_pronouns

[upbeat summit]

ah…

hrm

[split grail]

(request for people to write about to combat it) I don't know if other beginners do this, or I was just weird, but I used to say things like this

mi tawa pona tawa tomo
I went well to school
or
ni li lon lon ma pona
this exists in the good place

[noble gulch]

That seems fine to me

Sort of awkward, but not wrong.

The first one I don't know how to rephrase: what would you prefer?

[grand marten]

mi wile toki e mi wile·lili moku la mi toki e lili la mi wile pali · ni la pona la mi tawa tomo li ken

[split grail]

you missed a backtick

[grand marten]

pokola

[hot trout]

first is fine, if you're lukin to rephrase, I might suggest "mi tawa tomo kepeken nasin pona"

[upbeat summit]

[[kepeken e]] has a lot of red links that i'm not sure what to point towards

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/kepeken_e

[upbeat summit]

like surface features and head of whose predicate and Nikita Ayzikovsy and middle

[split grail]

link either to Wikipedia or don't link at all

(remove the link, not the text)

[upbeat summit]

i want to be sure that's not stuff that could be useful that i'm just not understanding before i move to strip it out

@noble gulch o, you seem to be the main contributor, what input hast thou

[split grail]

Nikita is an early speaker, it's okay to not link
middle is it [[w:middle voice]]?

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/w:middle_voice

[upbeat summit]

this is the passage:

mi kepeken e ilo la ilo li kepeken.
I use the tool so the tool is in use.
I make the tool use [something] so the tool uses it.
These two interpretations interrogate our intuitions about the word "kepeken": ultimately, is it a content word that acts transitively to produce a middle meaning, or is it a preposition acting transitively on the object?

—which i grokn't

like i get the idea but i don't know what middle means here exactly

[split grail]

no clue either

[upbeat summit]

jPeton too enlightened

[split grail]

jan sewi J
awe

this part would be useful in [[monsutatesu]] I think

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/monsutatesu

[split grail]

and the rest of the transitivity section into a new article all about it

how transitive verbs may be interpreted

apply...
turn into ...
etc. etc.

[upbeat summit]

could <span style="display:inline-block;">[…]</span> it

[split grail]

not sure what that does but if you can edit {{sp}} so that it doesn't happen then :>

[upbeat summit]

might break other things

[grand marten]

white-space: nowrap;

a taso ni li ken pakala lon nimi suli

pona mute la   · taso pali ilo suli

[split grail]

have testing so you know you didn't fuck up

[upbeat summit]

like

would it affect anything else in wikitext or HTML or CSS declaration blocks

[grand marten]

-a seme la ona li ken ante e [poki ni] e [//mu.mu poki ni] ala

[upbeat summit]

yep

knew i was forgetting something

[split grail]

nanpa nanpa nanpa a. mi musi taso

[upbeat summit]

We could make a nesting template {{cartouche}}

[split grail]

oo

what if..... cartouche with non-sp text

mi jan {{cartouche|月王}}

ma {{cartouche|مصر}}

[upbeat summit]

i don't think the font would format it right

why do you ask

[split grail]

silly idea

that I'd love to me true but it won't

[upbeat summit]

[[ojuta]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/ojuta

[upbeat summit]

someone had to do it

Actually how do we get the spt to not appear in these embeds and whatnot

because it would fit perfectly otherwise

[split grail]

dkdgkdhf

[split grail]

did you put everything in one line

because normally it only shows the opening paragraph

[upbeat summit]

no?

maybe it is paragraph-based though

hrmm

[grand marten]

class="noexcerpt"

[split grail]

mi [[ojuta]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/ojuta

[split grail]

it's still there

[split grail]

add this to {{Example}} please thank you

[noble gulch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_(grammar)#Middle_voice

I'm not even sure if I'm using the term right here

But I learned it along with Ancient Greek.

It's sort of like what we mean by "intransitive" verb in Toki Pona, but particularly when a transitive verb is used intransitively.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediopassive_voice

Hmm

Grammar is wild.

I think this is the same phenomenon that other people analyze as a "stative verb".

[noble gulch]

Unfortunately in English this doesn't neatly translate, so it's hard to get an English gloss that maintains the exact grammatical properties of the Toki Pona. That sentence is also poorly worded and rather unclear.

But the first example "the tool is in use" for "ilo li kepeken" I'd hesitantly qualify as being a "middle voice" in Toki Pona, as opposed to "the tool uses [something]" for "ilo li kepeken" where kepeken is in an active voice.

That's a super spicy take and not really a common way of glossing what's going on there, but one that makes sense to me.

[split grail]

I use the tool and the tool used me

[noble gulch]

Nikita was one of the first fluent speakers of Toki Pona. Surface feature can go — that's just a grammar thing for "homonyms/homophones": how the words appear and sound with no regard to their actual meaning.

[noble gulch]

I think "head of predicate" is meant to link to a discussion of predicates, or Toki Pona sentences.

[split grail]

begging for someone to create [[pre-pu]] and [[post-pu]] already

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/pre-pu
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/post-pu

[noble gulch]

Are those supposed to be listicles of the words?

[grand marten]

ken la ona o tawa [[Glossary]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Glossary

[upbeat summit]

They should also discuss grammatical features and anything else that was especially common during each era

Maybe even short overviews of that part of the History page

geist the Zeit, as it were

[noble gulch]

From that perspective I think the idea of splitting Toki Pona history into pre- and post-pu is fairly dubious.

Because even "pre-pu" has a lot of changes.

[upbeat summit]

that is fair

[noble gulch]

Earliest Toki Pona, for example.

[upbeat summit]

Unrelated—

Is the repo https://github.com/Mazerinth/toki-pona-translation-for-Minecraft up to date?

There are a lot of unmarked questions, sina lis, and such, so either i'm citing the wrong thing, or we ought to look their work over,,

[noble gulch]

I think that's outdated and that it's now within the Minecraft code base.

I don't know how that works, though.

[winter sparrow]

minecraft translations exist in the mojang crowdin project

https://crowdin.com/project/minecraft/tok

that's where the in-game bundled translation comes from

[split grail]

if someone can help add to [[sin]], it would be very much appreciated

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/sin

[upbeat summit]

aah…

[upbeat summit]

Is this good

[upbeat summit]

The document i know of that guesses at SP etymologies straight up just left sin blank

(It was a rough draft but still)

sona pona: featuring new horizons in sitelen pona bullshittery

unless @mighty seal remembers what the sin glyph represents

[noble gulch]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tân#Vietnamese

In case etymology weren't fun enough, sin is technically cognate to vietnamese tan, meaning new

[upbeat summit]

But we have that

We need cos

We could also stand to replace pi with tau

[noble gulch]

Added fun cognates to sin. Can someone who knows about language help?

[noble gulch]

This is very improbable.

[upbeat summit]

it's worth a shot

The frustrating thing is that so many SP are so obvious that it makes the unclear ones all the more obtuse and inexplicable

like yeah this does indeed very much mean "new" to me by now, but i couldn't tell you why, it's completely abstract,,

[noble gulch]

Yeah I mean tomo, pilin, olin, even toki are pretty straight forward.

This one I have no idea.

Is it some sort of interruption?

[upbeat summit]

My desperate search for meaning is just

[noble gulch]

It is cognate with Japanese 新 (romanization: shin), meaning "a novelty" or "neo-", and with Korean 신, (hanja: 新, romanization: sin), meaning "neo-" as a prefix.

How does language work?

[upbeat summit]

The sitelen pona glyph for sin depicts three lines, in the form of a starburst missing the bottom ray. The exact meaning is unclear. The glyph may represent something popping into existence. Due to the merger with namako, it may also represent a few flakes of a spice. The shape also evokes a pile of something extra being added on top, which occurs in stacked glyphs.

[noble gulch]

I don't know any of these, I'm just scraping wiktionary.

I think those all are potentially logical interpretations.

[upbeat summit]

ah hey wait have i heard of 新 before

[noble gulch]

I think it's just been borrowed into Japanese and Korean basically unchanged.

There's also the vietnamese connection, but it's sort of devilish because by coincidence that language borrowed the word as "tan".

[upbeat summit]

i gotta learn more about Japanese or Mandarin or something eventually

[noble gulch]

Yeah...

I don't even know which forms of the orthography to use where.

I think the Korean one has a rediculous number of homonyms, and that the hanja is used to disambiguate.

So should I just use the hanja, or is the phonetic good too? And if I include that phonetic script, should I include the japanese hiragana too?

[upbeat summit]

that kind of thing is what i've mostly been thinking

like, starbursts in general are used for newness a lot

or at least to draw your attention to something new and shiny

but also… it's not really quite a starburst… is it…?

[noble gulch]

Maybe it's some sort of abstraction of the emitters...

Like in toki and pana.

[upbeat summit]

i thought the simplest meaning of the emitters was more pana or seli

[noble gulch]

Oh true.

I forgot about seli

[grand marten]

linja namako ni li lon poka ijo la ijo li ken sama insa ona · sin la insa li lon ala la ona li insa pi ona sama la ona li lon poka insa li lon weka pi ona ante

[noble gulch]

https://tenor.com/view/mind-blown-head-explode-amazing-shocking-wow-gif-19681784

[upbeat summit]

seli for irradiation in general

🤔

[noble gulch]

Makes sense to me, except in some contexts it could be suno or pana e wawa

[upbeat summit]

me when i give the powerful 😌

[grand marten]

https://youtu.be/Mnv9-ejhOyk

[upbeat summit]

sina toki wawa (the language of powerful)

[noble gulch]

I want to say to everyone that sona.pona is a great resource that I actively enjoy reading, using, and working on. Thanks everyone for being awesome.

sina ale li pona mute tan pali sina lon lipu ilo pi sona pona.

[split grail]

I have to say the same

you are all so lovely <3

[noble gulch]

The third bird heard a word.
😂

[upbeat summit]

waso laso li taso.

[split grail]

5 left!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[[pali]], [[pilin]], [[pini]], [[kin]], [[namako]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/pali
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/pilin
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/pini
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/kin
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/namako

[upbeat summit]

polly peeling peeny keen namco*!!*

[upbeat summit]

There are now fewer wanted pages than Gen I Pokémon

[upbeat summit]

Soon there will be fewer wanted pages than nimi pu

[split grail]

should [[supa]] mention how people use it jokingly as 'super' as in 'supa Mawijo' or 'mi supa jan' (in one of jan Usawi's song)

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/supa

[split grail]

or is that too silly

[noble gulch]

If you can document it then it should be included.

But frankly that strikes me as being exceedingly silly and I've never heard it before.

Not that it's wrong, however.

[split grail]

sdjfklsjf

[winter sparrow]

nah

it's just a really specific pun joke

[split grail]

too silly

[split grail]

The Toki Pona logo is the main symbol of Toki Pona, designed by jan Sonja. It dates to 4 September 2005 according to Toki pona.svg on Wikimedia Commons.
dubious source but okay

@mighty seal o do you know roughly when it came about

to guide us

[winter sparrow]

wayback machine on tokipona.org or the forums might be able to help also

almost 20 years ago la I doubt she remembers the fine details :p

[split grail]

tokipona.org nope

all pages under that domain were excluded

the forums, I will check

[grand marten]

https://archive.is/ li awen e

[split grail]

this is the first mention of logo

http://forums.tokipona.org/viewtopic.php?t=59

no images

no useful images anyway

current Unicode [mojibake]

nothing before 2005 for 'logo' or 'symbol' :(

[split grail]

nothing here either

checked tokipona.org and en.tokipona.org

the furthest it goes it 2009

OKAY there's this
https://pineight.com/tokipona/tpreview.html

[mighty seal]

i got vaccinated yesterday and have a slight fever today, can i help you another day?

[split grail]

it is completely fine, no rush

o sijelo pona

[split grail]

and it is. not enough to count, because the Wikimedia file is still earlier

by a month

WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE SO
going on the Wayback Machine on Yerrick's website, there's this line, in later snapshots it says

I've marked the remaining problems with a 💣 icon. . (However, note that "problems" are solely my opinion; one man's 💣 is another's man's .)
but there the image is broken, so I can't be sure that it existed

but it could have

also also, when I copy-pasted that message it gave the the alt text [bomb] and [pona] for the two images

this is the earliest pona

and it's broken

@upbeat summit o lukin

indulge my madness

[upbeat summit]

https://www.colorhexa.com/ccffff.png

kule websafe pona a

[upbeat summit]

wAIT it's not broken for me

[hot trout]

the earliest I can source it to is 2004

[upbeat summit]

or do you mean it's broken on the Wayback Machine and we can't be sure it existed back then

[split grail]

HMM

[upbeat summit]

https://web.archive.org/web/20051227054625/http://www.pineight.com/tokipona/tp.png

We got proof that it existed in 2005

[split grail]

indeed

[upbeat summit]

did you say that

[split grail]

the Wikimedia one already prooved it

[upbeat summit]

i didn't get much sleep

[split grail]

this link here is from 2002

[hot trout]

But the Spanish course is from 2004 and already uses it

[split grail]

yippee

[hot trout]

yeah, 2002 seems good

[upbeat summit]

the Wikimedia Commons file was uploaded in 2007, it only claims the logo dates to 2005

[split grail]

ahh

so then

[upbeat summit]

no timestamps, no bueno

so this is progress,,

[split grail]

• earliest uncertain date: 2002?
• 76 illustrated lessons: 2004 (earliest dated?)
• Damian Yerrick: 2005

Yerrick's website is important too because it's The Toki Pona logo

[upbeat summit]

Will also note that while i doubt 2002 Yerrick was using some other image and changed it later, the page has been tweaked since

the title now prefers Chalkboard over Comic Sans MS, which wasn't how it was set originally

so it's in ma ken: the realm of possibility

[split grail]

thank you Ke Tami for reminding me about the Spanish-language course because look!

[upbeat summit]

toki ma 😨

Oh also also i forgot to mention, there are now fewer wanted pages than nimi ku suli

[split grail]

wooo

also do you mean lili

[grand marten]

#sona-kulupu-tpt message
mute mute la · mute li sona ala e ike · mute sama li sona · ni la · · · n

[upbeat summit]

no like incl. the nimi pu

137~8

[upbeat summit]

[[moku Wapa]] when

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/moku_Wapa

[split grail]

ahh

[split grail]

how can you put <ref>s inside <ref>s

[mighty seal]

i'm feeling better today. in response to your question, the emblem or logo of toki pona is pretty much from the very beginning, 2001 probably. when i created sitelen pona many years later, shortly before publishing pu, i made sure it would be retro-compatible and mean "toki pona"

[split grail]

pilin pona tawa sina a

[hot trout]

{{#tag:ref|
I think

[split grail]

gave me this error

{{#tag:ref|{{cite Discord|url=#pana message|name={{tok|jan Sonja}}|username=sonjalang|channel={{tok|lipu}}|server={{tp|ma pona pi toki pona}}|access-date=2023-12-01}}}}

[hot trout]

Not a valid name I'd guess

Or rather no name

[split grail]

what hecking name

yeah

I've never used {{#tag}} so I don't know what to do

[hot trout]

add |name=somenamehere|

[split grail]

ok..

[split grail]

some light refactoring

[upbeat summit]

…are the forums down or is there just something wrong with [[Historical usage#References]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Historical_usage%23References

[split grail]

there is just something wrong

look
http://forums.tokipona.org/

ohh because in the references it's https:// instead of http://

or worse, //

[upbeat summit]

That still throws a Site Not Found for me

[split grail]

do you have an Always HTTPS addon or something

[upbeat summit]

possibly

[split grail]

disable it, because it's only HTTP

no secure in this household

[upbeat summit]

oh nasa a

[split grail]

can you add the piece of code that turns YYYY-MM-DD to dd mmm YYYY to {{cite Discord}}

and also make it so |access-date= works like an alias to |retrieved-date=

[upbeat summit]

I've been wondering if we shouldn't refactor it into a more specific version of {{cite web}}

which is how [[Template:cite YouTube]] currently works

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Template:cite_YouTube

[upbeat summit]

have to sleep now though

[split grail]

a lape pona

o snork mimimimi

[upbeat summit]

mimir a

[split grail]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-sleepy-gif-20263057

[split grail]

once again asking if we could have a section inside the {{Words}} template (normally hidden like shown) for words below widespread

|list1=[[epiku]]; [[kipisi]]; [[lanpan]]; [[meso]]; [[misikeke]]; [[oko]]; [[soko]]
|group2=[[Linku#Word usage surveys|Uncommon words]]
|list2=[[ali]]; [[apeja]]; [[jasima]]; [[kiki]]; [[kokosila]]; [[linluwi]]; [[majuna]]; [[nimisin]]; [[oke]]; [[omekapo]]; [[powe]]; [[usawi]]; [[wuwojiti]]; [[yupekosi]]
|group3=[[Linku#Word usage surveys|Rare words]]
|list3=[[isipin]]; [[kamalawala]]; [[kapesi]]; [[misa]]; [[pake]]; [[puwa]]; [[taki]]; [[te]]; [[to]]; [[unu]]; [[wa]]
|group4=[[Linku#Word usage surveys|Obscure words]]
|list4=[[alente]]; [[alu]]; [[eliki]]; [[enko]]; [[ete]]; [[jami]]; [[je]]; [[jonke]]; [[jule]]; [[jume]]; [[kalamARR]]; [[kalijopilale]]; [[kan]]; [[ke]]; [[kepen]]; [[kese]]; [[ki]]; [[kisa]]; [[konwe]]; [[kosan]]; [[kulijo]]; [[kulu]]; [[kuntu]]; [[likujo]]; [[melome]]; [[mijomi]]; [[molusa]]; [[mulapisu]]; [[nalanja]]; [[natu]]; [[nele]]; [[nja]]; [[ojuta]]; [[okepuma]]; [[oki]]; [[omekalike]]; [[omen]]; [[oni]]; [[owe]]; [[pa]]; [[pakola]]; [[pasila]]; [[pata]]; [[peta]]; [[peto]]; [[pika]]; [[Pingo]]; [[pipo]]; [[po]]; [[polinpin]]; [[pomotolo]]; [[poni]]; [[san]]; [[sikomo]]; [[slape]]; [[soto]]; [[sutopatikuna]]; [[teje]]; [[tokana]]; [[tuli]]; [[waleja]]; [[wasoweli]]; [[wawajete]]; [[we]]; [[wekama]]; [[yutu]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/epiku
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/kipisi
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/lanpan
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/meso
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/misikeke
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/oko
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/soko

[split grail]

oh heck

then people can expand it as much as they like

[noble gulch]

I unfortunately know nothing about the template language for mediawiki — I can dig more into it once I'm done with finals (week after next)

[split grail]

yeah

in two weeks, I'll be in holidays :3

more time to pona the sona

[upbeat summit]

Getting to this next

[upbeat summit]

almost done

[upbeat summit]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Template:cite_Discord

actually gonna make one last tweak to hide the quote marks

but tell me if there are any other bugs @split grail

We should have a bot that archive.is-es all the Toki Pona Forum links on the wiki

[upbeat summit]

sorry i haven't been able to help with the final widespread word articles lately

for reference, all that remain:

[[pali]] [[pilin]] [[pini]] [[kin]] [[namako]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/pali
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/pilin
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/pini
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/kin
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/namako

[upbeat summit]

Also, is there any reason we don't do this

The sitelen pona glyph for a () …

I think it would be really useful to have a visual reference right there in the passage

The image of the glyph is all the way up the page, and is also not visibly labeled as sitelen pona without hovering or following the link

[split grail]

okay that is true

what I think is better tho, is images ✨
if it happens that the user's device lacks support for it, then this is nice

...maybe even, in several fonts?

that would be a nightmare of boredom to make (unless someone automates it), but I'm just throwing ideas

[split grail]

this can do

[upbeat summit]

Maybe we should use UCSUR codepoints

I think i have a template for converting a word to that

That way the fallback isn't "tonsi (tonsi)" which might look confusing

[split grail]

ahh

[upbeat summit]

it'll just be a missing character glyph

This would also be good for words without glyph images uploaded, but whose glyphs we can still get at through any of the SP fonts we have installed

which i think is gonna be most everything pu Epelanto ala

[split grail]

true

all in all it is good

[upbeat summit]

({{UCSUR char|{{codepoint|{{subst:PAGENAME}}}}}})

This generates title text with the codepoint name, too

U+F19xx: SITELEN PONA IDEOGRAPH WHATEVER

la pona mute

[split grail]

ehe great

[upbeat summit]

Already this also makes it easier to find the section while skimming :P

It'd be cool to have this (probably with images) for SS too

by which i mean sitelen sitelen and not the SP glyph for kon, which i did just add,

[split grail]

ilo wawa Menasewi

[upbeat summit]

mi esisin a

[split grail]

sdjfslkdfjsdf

@vague aspen could you make the text bigger for legibility

[vague aspen]

This SVG file contains an illegal namespace "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml".

[vague aspen]

done

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/File:kule_pi.svg

[split grail]

muchas gracas

[vague aspen]

drawio is making me crazy

i can’t embed text apparently

i have to convert it to splines

[split grail]

lil bug or nitpick: kin is a semiparticle

[upbeat summit]

mi [kasi](#toki-pi-sona-kulupu-tpt message) lon pimeja

[split grail]

seme a

[upbeat summit]

💤

[split grail]

supa kasi lape

[upbeat summit]

suika lape pas

[grand marten]

sus pakala pie

[split grail]

do people say arr with /rː/

I am not even a native English-speaker and I say /aɹː/

unless this is like the whatever /r/, which is fair

[split grail]

now actually I am a classical bilingual trying to remember if something exists in the two languages or I only learnt it in one

[vague aspen]

i do

(this question probably wasnt addresed to me but ok)

[split grail]

it is at you

because you made the edit

https://voca.ro/12oa7KOIbZL1

[vague aspen]

also autocorrect failed me

[split grail]

o kute

[hot trout]

Where was that survey asking 400 pirates about their pronunciation

[split grail]

jhjfjjfhkfg

kARR: the pirate dictionary

by SonjARR LARRng

[split grail]

do infoboxes have a way to add alt text to images

[split grail]

please delete this file, I uploaded a new version to Commons
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/File:ma_pona_pi_toki_pona_-_Rainbow_icon.jpg

[grand marten]

lupa ike nanpa luka ale tu

[split grail]

[upbeat summit]

mi pali e pali

nimi suli li wile e lipu la, [[namako]] en [[pilin]] en [[pini]] taso li awen lon·ala

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/namako
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/pilin
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/pini

[hot trout]

🤔 I kind of get it, but I don't like them the way they currently are
(I also think that mine were way cooler)

[hot trout]

tan seme la nimi Category: li lon

[split grail]

tan pakala

[split grail]

they were cool but I do like that these are more self-explanatory

a mix of them would be nice

when I get home maybe I will sketch something out

or maybe not because I only have an hour of lunch

[split grail]

ni a

[hot trout]

aaa
nimi "Duospaced" li pona ala tawa mi

taso ijo ante li pona

[split grail]

Monospaced then?

ale li pona

[split grail]

I also ask for you all to make this a bit thin to not take much vertical space

[hot trout]

pona
ona o lili

[hot trout]

ni

[split grail]

aa

o sitelen pona

[upbeat summit]

tan nasa ni https://mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Display_Title

[hot trout]

a!

[upbeat summit]

o lukin: ona li kepeken {{tp title}} la, ni li ante e nimi {{DISPLAYTITLE}} ona la, nimi Category: li kama kin

mama namako li weka ala e namespace (enko nimi) lon palisa ni tan seme

[grand marten]

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T351039

[upbeat summit]

oh wow that exists

[split grail]

spicy mother? 🥺

[upbeat summit]

extension developer(s)

gosh maybe Toki Pona is ambiguous and not just vague

[grand marten]

tomo tawa sina:

[upbeat summit]

well yeah i'll gladly admit the schisms in semantic space between parts of speech lead to significant grammatical ambiguities

but otherwise, semantically the argument is just that the words are just broad,,

but then this happens,,,,

[winter sparrow]

toki pona vocabulary is vague, toki pona grammar has a handful of ambiguous places

[grand marten]

[ilo penpo o lukin ala]
i'd argue this is largely grammatical too
modifiers can either describe traits of the head word or objects pertaining to the head word
"spicy" is a trait, "extension" is a pertaining object
to me "spice mother" sounds fine for "extension developer"

[split grail]

@upbeat summit little nitpick: glyphs aren't anything, they depict things

also for particles and things without semantic spaces, is it okay for a Definitions section

[upbeat summit]

hm, yeah, i think that's fair for pali, i slipped there. pilin though is iffier imo

i guess it's not exactly the same entity as the heart symbol

but like also it's a heart symbol,,

[split grail]

..hmm

that I could say

it is derived from it

[upbeat summit]

or shaped after it

[split grail]

yeah

also by chance, is jan Same the tokiponised name of James Flear??

[upbeat summit]

also i have that the glyph for ijo "is a circle"

[split grail]

hm

I mean,

[upbeat summit]

and a circle isn't primarily a typographical entity with a different usage from a sitelen pona glyph

it's, the shape that it is,

so i feel like another wording would be awkward

[split grail]

okay for like symbols, I think it gets a pass maybe

yeah

[upbeat summit]

at least shapes that aren't already typographical Things

because like i gggguuuueeeessssssss someone could read "pilin is a heart symbol" and be like "oh sweet i can use it at the ends of sentences for stylistic effect \♡"

[split grail]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

yeah

'is derived from the heart symbol' for sure

[upbeat summit]

no actually fuck it let's just go the opposite direction for funsies

The sitelen pona glyph for pilin is plucked from an internal organ

[split grail]

new glyph for pilin 🫀

yes you have to draw all the veins and arteries in the real heart

[upbeat summit]

The sitelen pona glyph for lawa is straight-up just some guy's disembodied head. They're wearing a baseball cap. I wonder who they could be.

sona ike

[split grail]

truly

[upbeat summit]

we should do sona ike and just fill it with lies

like all the other Toki Pona resources online

[split grail]

TikTok

YouTube Shorts

HAI

[upbeat summit]

The sitelen pona glyph for toki was derived by combining the Romanian ideogram for moose with the "crumpled"⁽¹⁾⁽²⁾ silhouette of jan Sonja's first bubblegum wrapper. It is a subtle reference to how you can learn Toki Pona in 2 seconds.

[split grail]

I love and hate that so much dkdhdkdgdj

[upbeat summit]

The YouTubers will start saying this

This should be our version of a copyright trap

or… can you call something a "shibboleth" for "doing basic research"

[split grail]

maybe

[upbeat summit]

noo

this would ruin our ability to get serious writing done i think

we already have userspace subpages + {{Fun}} for jokes,,

[grand marten]

taso sina lipu e nimi ale la pali ante seme li wile :p

[upbeat summit]

[[Project:Requests]]?
[[Special:WantedPages]]?
[[Category:Redirects with possibilities]]?

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Project:Requests

[upbeat summit]

…odd

[grand marten]

alasikepesija

[upbeat summit]

whats that

Alaskapedia

[grand marten]

"un cyclo pedia"

[upbeat summit]

yeah just make a new, separate wiki named Alaskapedia whose entire contents are

The sitelen pona glyph for toki was derived by combining the Romanian ideogram for moose with the "crumpled"⁽¹⁾⁽²⁾ silhouette of jan Sonja's first bubblegum wrapper. It is a subtle reference to how you can learn Toki Pona in 2 seconds.

[grand marten]

alalukinwanesija

[upbeat summit]

jumprope multiplication parenthesis,

||musi ala la||

Should we always prefer toki pona names to legal names for real people articles

because we largely do that but then have weird but consistent exceptions like Jonathan Gabel

when that should be a redirect to what

jan Josan Kapo?

is that the most recent name? i'm not even sure

[split grail]

that's because that is what I see more commonly

why should it be all toki pona names

and anyway, what is the problem with it being mixed

[upbeat summit]

if their articles focus on their contributions to Toki Pona specifically then iunno their That Names seems most fitting to me

[split grail]

I only see him as Josan Kapo in the forums, albeit I haven't met him (online)

[split grail]

no matter what you do btw, there's gonna be exceptions
there are people without tokiponised names (including tokiponists I think? I don't know Chuck Smith's name)
if we choose only legal name, there are people who haven't released theirs (lipamanka, jan Ne, etc.)

[upbeat summit]

yeah i know

[noble gulch]

My sense is that people clearly have preferences. J. Gabel, Sonja Lang, and Quéré seem to only use their Toki Pona names in Toki Pona and prefer their mundane names in other contexts. Tepo and I both sign both our names on things, whereas several people only ever use their Toki Pona names

I suppose we should prefer the preferred form of that person?

[split grail]

yeah

preferred legal name

Sonja Lang
Jonathan Gabel

mixed

Spencer van der Meulen (jan Pensa)
jan Pensa (Spencer van der Meulen)

legal name known but not preferred?

kala pona Tonyu

legal name unknown

jan ne

[upbeat summit]

so should we contact people about how they want to be addressed on sona pona specifically

genuine question, probably better than using heuristics, just more work and we might not get responses and might then have to fall back on the heuristics

[split grail]

work

[split grail]

nimi li suli

why bother

toki pona was created out of thin air a long time ago

[golden rock]

there are some people, including myself, who've put their legal names on the ISO code submission, but never used it outside that context

[split grail]

yeah that

[winter sparrow]

We should make a racism page summarizing and linking to resources about racism in a toki pona context. I might get to that today, unsure

[split grail]

what

[winter sparrow]

there's some really common racism issues that come up in a toki pona context like the "islander" or "primitive culture" stereotypes

I was just giving someone some educational material about it and would have enjoyed a wiki page collecting it or at least collecting links about it

[split grail]

aah

you mean that alright

it's that I haven't really heard it before aprt from one (1) blog article and btw we have this which may be tangentially related

[[Worldbuilding]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Worldbuilding

[hot trout]

... equalcomplexity

[rain ice]

#8822 📣 There are no simple or primitive languages, or inherently sophisticated languages, so all languages are equally complex. Languages will vary in lots of ways—the number of sounds or handshapes they have, the number of verb endings and noun categories —and typically languages will have more of some and less of others. Even if a language seems "simple" in one respect, it likely has other features that will seem less so! Evaluating an entire language as simple or complex ignores variation across these different properties, at best—and at worst it could actually be a non-linguistic commentary on the people who use the language.

[hot trout]

... primitive

[rain ice]

#12792 📣 "Primitive” is racist. It's a term used to support the idea that it is the natural right of Europeans to dominate. It is based on the erroneous idea that all peoples move through the same stages of development in the same order, and some peoples remain at a simpler and more childlike level. Investigation of actual societies have revealed that social organization is always just as complex as the human brain can sustain.
For more nuance and further explanation, here is a video that may be useful:
https://youtu.be/hTREU-xVeY0

[split grail]

sina wawa

[winter sparrow]

https://lipamanka.gay/essays/FAQ the "island" bit

obviously also

... mapona

[rain ice]

#14474 📣 https://mimuki.net/thoughts/mapona/

[split grail]

that article I read

there's a redirect from ma pona to the article about this server, how do you distinguish it

ma pona (fictional land)?

[winter sparrow]

I wouldn't make that a page

just one page on how racism intersects with toki pona

within that you can have a section about the "ma pona" worldbuilding concept

and uh maybe we want to preemptively lock page edits to mods only

[hot trout]

We could, but 1) there aren't all that many editors, really and 2) people who aren't registered get all their edits put in a moderator cue that mods need to approve

[split grail]

oh right they do

we have like.... 5 or 6 editors

(mute)

if we were to ditch the mod cue, then locking is the option ofc

[split grail]

what do you name the section then

"Racism § ma pona" sounds like racism in the server

[split grail]

and then why not, the concept of a ma pona could be notable enough to warrant its own article because also there may be mentions that, don't do a racism I think idk

[grand marten]

(Pedantically la · ilo li awen e ante li wile e lukin tan lawa lon ni → sijelo pi pana ante li pana ala e ante lon tenpo pini)

[upbeat summit]

Should the article perhaps be named Anti-racism instead

[split grail]

is there a way to indicate optionality without changing the opacity, it feels like a bad idea

[upbeat summit]

dotted line sitelen pona font

[split grail]

I

maybe we can stick to the opacity,,,,

but can we have a template that does it

[dark tree]

this would be really cute

[split grail]

silly btw

[dark tree]

maybe add a colored background, probably gray

[split grail]

no, we already use colour for things

[upbeat summit]

Core words li pini

🎉

[split grail]

wawa

mi [[namako]] 🎉

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/namako

[split grail]

(add more to the semantic space section tho )

[upbeat summit]

wawa

If you want to move onto common words we only have [[epiku]] [[meso]] [[oko]] left

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/epiku
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/meso
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/oko

[grand marten]

[ilo penpo o lukin ala]
the real yupekosi is the vertical ratio

[split grail]

shush

it's not that baddd

[split grail]

once more asking for that template

[upbeat summit]

which

[split grail]

ni

[split grail]

mi wile ku. taso lipu mi li lon tomo mi

mi lon tomo pan ||(café)||

(on mobile)

talking to lipamanka on the Linku server, they experienced this issue

they also suggests changing the font back to linja lipamanka by default

as they see problems with ssk's basic design principles

[hot trout]

I think we should generally use {{sp}} that's supported across (most) fonts, and when that's not the case, specify the font

[upbeat summit]

Is there a way to make https://sona.pona.la/Foobar redirect to sona.pona.la/wiki/Foobar

[split grail]

I don't think so

[upbeat summit]

pensive

[upbeat summit]

okay, no, this is so weird

even adding in all the words on Linku

as long as we set the obscure words aside

we are so close to being done with everything else, too

[split grail]

o

wawa

[upbeat summit]

unless there are some really recent nimisin that have actually caught on that i'm not remembering

[split grail]

you included them in requests

[upbeat summit]

…like lonsi, if we're desperate

yeah

[split grail]

the heck is lonsi

[upbeat summit]

exactly

[split grail]

@lonsi-ers explsin yourselves

[upbeat summit]

2 common words left
6 uncommon words left
5 rare words left

[split grail]

uwuwuuwuwue

[upbeat summit]

then covering anything else would probably be more for cultural significance than anything

[split grail]

yeah

[upbeat summit]

i would've expected more than a baker's dozen words between us and that

[split grail]

when we get everything from rare up, it will be compete enough for me

[upbeat summit]

everything from rare?

[split grail]

all words not obscure

[upbeat summit]

like panjo-kasoje?

i am just giddy like how are we getting all this done

we do have 152 pages needing work

but that's easy, the pages are already up, we just need to edit most of them,

and that can be part of the process of just lipuponaing more articles

[grand marten]

pan So en kasi suwi

[upbeat summit]

[[File:apeja Jakob Vogel.jpg]] has a line at the bottom, is there a better crop

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/File:apeja_Jakob_Vogel.jpg

[upbeat summit]

and ideally in transparent PNG format

[split grail]

go to the forum links in the references

I got it from there

in general you can also google "sitelen pona [word]" and the sources appear on Images

but there's no PNG

uou have to make that yourself

[upbeat summit]

the glyphs in the fonts could probably be converted to SVG somehow or other

⊣msx

[grand marten]

taso sijelo linja ala

[upbeat summit]

sina wile la mi ken linja

kin mi li nja

[grand marten]

sina li njanpa

[upbeat summit]

nja anpa

anu … nja *npa …………

[split grail]

nja anpa (submissive catboy)

[upbeat summit]

mja (catboy, from mije + nja)

[split grail]

tja (tonsi + nja)

[upbeat summit]

tjotja (nyanbinary-loving-nyanbinary)

[grand marten]

тётя

[upbeat summit]

tjotjais (funny falling block game)

[split grail]

ни ли мели

[upbeat summit]

meliis

tjotja (cool nonbinary cat·aunt)

[split grail]

ni

wait that's a dog

[upbeat summit]

sorry, all the trans catfems are turning into dogs lately

[split grail]

(searches frantically in my gallery)

[upbeat summit]

is omekapo actually used as a content word or is it just an interjection

[split grail]

I think only as an interjection,,

but then

is an interjection a part of speech or a role of a word

[upbeat summit]

It's not really a part of speech for any common word iirc

hmm

particle? like a?

i'll go with that

[split grail]

psrticle...... idk idts,,

[upbeat summit]

I don't think jan Sonja wrote those words with the-kala·kala-part·of·speech-analysis-of-a-farewell-interjection-coined-from-its-abbreviation in mind,,

[upbeat summit]

@grand marten did you ever sketch any of those wiki logo~mascot ideas

[grand marten]

lili

#1078420779231875203 message

[upbeat summit]

hmm

[split grail]

a bit too silly

[upbeat summit]

yeah this is a SERIOUS operation

no [[Category:Fun]] allowed

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Category:Fun

[upbeat summit]

ignore that

who would put a userspace subpage in there anyway

[split grail]

dkdgdkdh

Wikipedia has fun too yknow and they're serious

[upbeat summit]

name one time

ignore that

[split grail]

silly

[[w:Silly, Belgium]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/w:Silly%2C_Belgium

[upbeat summit]

oh [[w:nice]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/w:nice

[upbeat summit]

Should all the nimisin from kulupu pi toki pona pi ma Anku be on one article like with nasin panke

also, fill out nasin panke, @split grail o,,,,

[split grail]

maybe

I will dp it

[upbeat summit]

I forgot that they're all Linku-nonnotable individually so yeah 😅

lump it is

[zinc hazel]

in epikulupu there used to be a pingable lonsi role of lonseers

[split grail]

what is lonsi tho???????

[golden rock]

a new potesu as far as im concerned

[split grail]

potesu????????????????????????????????

[upbeat summit]

the old lonsi as far as i can tell

[golden rock]

just look up potesu in ma pona from old to new and see how people used it and what the reaction was

lonsi has actually been used like 5 times more since tho, so thats fun

[verbal coral]

(twinkle twinkle little star)
sonja, sonja, mun wawa
nasin seme li pona?
anusememailmahjong
gaming lon poka li lon
sonja, sonja, mun wawa
jan pi kamalawala

#61e013 mun

[split grail]

piece of art

[[kamalawala]] la is jan Wesu/Powe/Sojapoja the same person or what

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/kamalawala

[split grail]

also I uploaded it to the Internet Archive
https://archive.org/details/jan_pi_kamalawa

[split grail]

names are hard,,

who is jan Kipo

putting this here for later maybe
#learn-toki-pona-1 message

[split grail]

I feel like I have seen this name several times, even in 'ancient' history but I don't know how to connect the dots

[split grail]

[[aAANUSEMEmailMahjong]] :3

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/aAANUSEMEmailMahjong

[winter sparrow]

https://equa.space/toki-pona/tomo-lipu/en/ la we should enhance the corpora page(s)

[golden rock]

ive not seen this before, that's amazing

[grand marten]

[ilo penpo o lukin ala]
i've been procrastinating on formatting it into a consistent style
but also idk how relevant tomo lipu is here, given my intention with this page was to give data sources that are big/preprocessed/legally-clear

[winter sparrow]

ah interesting

[golden rock]

jan Kipo is a pre pu tokiponist old dude
he did a lot of work putting together a toki pona corpus and teaching people
people nowadays dislike him mostly out of him being too controlling over correctness, or something, idk

basically one of like ~5 notable pre pu community members with a lasting impact

[split grail]

ahh

[golden rock]

he might still be active on facebook, i wouldnt' know

@split grail off the top of my head the people you should be aware of from pre pu times are jan Sonja (obvs), jan Pije, jan Kipo, jan Lope

and whoever made the spanish course with an unusually high number of lessons

[split grail]

yeah

dkdhdk

jan Lope,,

refresh my memory

who are they as well

[golden rock]

made lessons, written in latex, very long very grammar heavy, most people just remember that they used a lot of bizarre punctuation that never stuck around

the mi ' moku. person

[split grail]

alright

I think I know them

[noble gulch]

jan Mato also has a lot of interesting things to say.

But jan Kipo was a Toki Pona theorist active circa 2009-2016

Maybe still active elsewhere

http://tpnimi.blogspot.com/?m=1

This is jan Kipo's blog. There's also a lot of posts on the forums from him.

[split grail]

ah!!!

when I was starting learning I used that

circa baby Juwan time

[noble gulch]

You know the trippy thing is that in 50 years people will be asking questions like "who was jan Juwan? When did they first learn Toki Pona?" and their sona.pona.la will cite this 🤯

Also I think it'd be interesting to take a systematic survey of how people learned Toki Pona. I started with Pije on the forums because I read an article in the New Yorker about Ithkuil that mentioned Toki Pona in passing. I was already interested in conlangs but had not yet taken the plunge into learning one. I started Toki Pona spring of 2015 using Pije and Memrise, then J. Gabel's sitelen sitelen course and the forums.

[split grail]

.........................omg

and it's like, oh they are a silly high school student who spent their time,,, writing a wiki

[split grail]

also oh wowsies, I found them by skimming the pu Elepanto on Commons

[noble gulch]

Yes but read Kipo's forum posts about pu.

https://github.com/stefichjo/toki-pona

Also I don't know whether we've been citing this awesome source.

[split grail]

mi lukin

[split grail]

we haven't and we have to start to

I also don't quite understand this

[noble gulch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Content_assessment

[noble gulch]

I think he's saying that the word nanpa is to the words tu wan as the headnoun jan is to Peton.

But then he points out that this isn't really a good analysis, since you don't use pi with nanpa.

You would said tomo tawa kulupu pi ma Kanata, but tomo tawa kulupu nanpa wan.

Basically he's saying that some people use pi with nanpa and some don't. The difference in our terms would be that the former usage implies that nanpa can only be a content word, whereas the latter includes the semi-particle use, essentially as a special case in the syntax specifically for the word in the context.

[noble gulch]

I honestly believe that this exact passage is a typo on his part and that the comments and examples got messed up.

[upbeat summit]

Is there anything in there that [[Project:lipu pona]] doesn't adequately cover for a wiki of our size and scope?

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Project:lipu_pona

[noble gulch]

They give a tier structure of articles measured by completion, which I think is a nice way to do it.

[upbeat summit]

What would you suggest for lower tiers

[upbeat summit]

The DPL extension is breaking on me in [[List of words]] for reasons i cannot figure out :)

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/List_of_words

[zinc hazel]

LONSI

I AM LONSI

[upbeat summit]

i think i'm just gonna make it a manual list

[zinc hazel]

I'd document lonsi but that's illedal

[upbeat summit]

I would begrudgingly agree to cover lonsi if it had, like

a meaning

I don't know what would even be on there

[zinc hazel]

actually it does have a very specific meaning that I technically coined and I'm pretty sure someone else coined first

[upbeat summit]

wha?

eyes emoji

[upbeat summit]

Oh hey we just need to add [[epiku]] [[jasima]] [[meso]] until we have all nimi ku suli

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/epiku
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/jasima
https://sona.pona.la/wiki/meso

[upbeat summit]

…honestly jasima has become to me what anu seems to be to everyone else

[split grail]

explain

[split grail]

for the {{Fun}} template, can we make the background purple to match the little warning sign

[split grail]

bug maybe: there's no ku data for polinpin

[[Recommended words]] la, should it be kept like so as a table of words with the pu definitions or should we instead list them to their articles?

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Recommended_words

[split grail]

and also, explain why they are recommended, that would be good

[split grail]

also also

there technically is a pu definition for some of these. in pu Epelanto

[upbeat summit]

i don't think the ku data that jSonja released is complete. I remember crossreferencing one entry with the final book and seeing some of the translations missing

[split grail]

@whoever parolas Esperanton here, can you translate this (p. 148)
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tokipono_La_lingvo_de_bono_-_eltiraĵoj_laŭ_CC0_kaj_CC_BY.pdf

[upbeat summit]

i don't think it would be helpful to learners for it to just be an opaque list of words they don't understand

[split grail]

nn

[upbeat summit]

probably something better could be done

[split grail]

that is true, however, is the pu definition the best thing to show

yeah

[upbeat summit]

that was just my first idea for slapping the page together

[split grail]

alrighties

[upbeat summit]

will

[split grail]

[[w:Will Smith]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/w:Will_Smith

[upbeat summit]

THREE YEARS LATER

As of 2023, his films have grossed over $9.3 billion globally, making him one of Hollywood's ...

oh to be one of Hollywood's

[upbeat summit]

Anyone willing to make [[jasima]] so we have all the nimi ku suli covered?

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/jasima

[split grail]

alrighty

I don't know much about it but

I will try

[upbeat summit]

hopefully an actual jasimær will fill it in one day

i was one once but now i'm not confident in its usage at all

[split grail]

okey

I hope that people that use the words fill the articles

can someone put it up on #pana or #info for people to see 🥺

[upbeat summit]

Yeah after we have all the nimi pu and ku suli we should put up plugs saying hey we have articles for all the nimi pu and ku suli

[split grail]

yeah

please guys pls fill them up more

some of them are comically small

[[kalama]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/kalama

[upbeat summit]

comically small spoon

ilomoku lili

[split grail]

ilomoku

[upbeat summit]

ilonoka (tœ·key)

[split grail]

wow I was trying to find the origin of jasima and people in 2018 were brutal about it

[verbal coral]

https://imgur.com/a/M2BJ9NG

#40bd4f spnap

[split grail]

this is the creator of many of the sitelen pona glyphs?

coiner

oh this was by jan Sa

#jaki message

huh so a lot of the glyphs are just, jan Sa decided one day, sure this would look good as a sitelen pona glyph and everyone just went with it

[regal panther]

i prioritized finding glyphs by creators of any and if not see if others already came up with something

[split grail]

ahh

good

do you rememeber (it's okay if you don't, it was 2 years ago) who created jasima

there are four names credited for it

[split grail]

at least, who did you take the glyph from

[regal panther]

hmm id have to search through some dms when i have a chance

[split grail]

that is alrighties

for now, you are credited for it, but that will change

[[jasima]] was made

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/jasima

[noble gulch]

Page 148 is a list of nimi ku suli and a comment to the effect "you can use these if you like, or not use them if you don't want to."

[split grail]

ah

good enough maybe

it still lists the definitions so :3

[split grail]

@upbeat summit celebration 🎉

[noble gulch]

They're exact translations from ku.

[split grail]

e

good to know at least

'this word was included in the pu epelanto with these definitions, mu mu m'

[noble gulch]

The only one that pops out as interesting is "monsuta"

timiga, timigaĵo, monstro, timinda sovaĝbesto, demono, maltrankviliga

Which means "frightening, frightening thing, monster, wild beast worthy of fear, demon, unsettling".

He uses the -ig infix which is transitivizing, so he takes a stance on the monsutatesu: "ĉu monsuta signifas timigi?"

Conceivably he's saying that its transitive meaning is to frighten and not to fear, but I think it would be to overinterpret to say that he has a definite position on it.

[split grail]

good thing that we can simply ask @grim mural what does he think

[noble gulch]

In fact, none of these are verbs.

[split grail]

pakola

I also see that sometimes people compare tonsi and meso's semantic spaces

jan Olipija herself (the coiner of the word) described it when she was first creating it in 2020, saying that maybe 'hard of hearing' could be 'kute tonsi' but 'kute meso' sounded better

[split grail]

lipu [[mun]] li pona ala pona?

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/mun

[split grail]

kin o pona e lipu [[pan]] tawa mi aaa

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/pan

[regal panther]

maybe you can say (nighttime objects or astronomical objects)

[split grail]

true

[golden rock]

pu elephant

[split grail]

*EPELANTO

[golden rock]

michael everson is notable as the Unicode/CSUR guy

otherwise i don't recognise these names except pije kipo and lope as previously mentioned

maybe other people can point out who those are and what theyve done

[split grail]

oh that Michael Everson??

I think that I have heard of jan Matejo, somewhere

I would check the forums, but ahah

I would check the Wayback Machine but ahah

[golden rock]

💀

[split grail]

truly

[split grail]

the Fandom Toki Pona wiki (possibly inherited from the OG Wikipedia) says:

jan Matejo li jan toki nanpa tu pi toki pona. tenpo pini la jan Sonja en jan Matejo li lon tomo sama. ona tu li toki e ni: nimi tomo mi li tomo pona. jan Matejo li mije.

tenpo ni la jan Matejo li kepeken ala e toki pona. ona li lon ma tomo Towano lon ma Kanata. ona li lon tomo poka jan Se. jan Matejo li sona pona e toki Inli e toki Kanse e toki Epelanto.

jan Matejo li kepeken e ilo nasa.

not sure if it is that one

so huh

[golden rock]

LMAO

[golden rock]

there wasn't much overlap in names in the early days, so like yea if theres a jan Matejo cited its probably this one

[split grail]

hm, I guess then

jan pi toki pona

1. jan Sonja
2. jan Matejo (jan tomo pi jan Sonja)
3. jan Nikita
4. jan Pije
   mute. mute

[golden rock]

whos jan Nikita

[split grail]

it is

[[History]]

[random sable]

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/History

[golden rock]

ah

[split grail]

the third speaker, somet things they did was

1. the AEI pi toki pona
2. pointing out the ambiguity of "tomo tawa mi"

[golden rock]

the terrifying alphabet illustrations

understandable

[split grail]

gjsldkfjsdf

you call it terrifying, I call it ✨ art ✨

[golden rock]

also godddddd

[split grail]

(it was very terrifying)

[hot trout]

it looked good next to the GIF-loadened websites

[golden rock]

we're a year behind

we really really really need a maintainer

[split grail]

aaaa

we do need one

but maintaining this is so hard

[golden rock]

2019-2020 was maintained really well

[split grail]

what happened this year??????????????

[golden rock]

2021 onwards.... yeesh

[golden rock]

bare minimum: mention all three sptps 2021-2023

[split grail]

okay true

[golden rock]

id be the wrong person to ask for more details, given my community participation has fallen off a cliff ever since ma ante was born

[split grail]

(what is ma ante)

[golden rock]

wait you actually don't know?

[split grail]

no,,

I got here like this year,,,,,, before I was only lurking

[golden rock]

okay okay

okay tl;dr
ma pona has had #ijo-ante, a channel for off topic things
it later grew to have #ijo-ante-kin
at some point some mods/admins complained ma pona has weird vibes, with the entire ante category feeling like a friend group unrelated to the topic of toki pona
they created ma ante and archived #ijo-ante , #ijo-ante-kin , as well as toki-toki (linguistics chat), toki-nasin (maths/CS chat), some others

its been basically a friend group ever since

the dates... i don't remember, it requires going through #ijo-sin

[split grail]

ah

(do you use ma ante more or)

[golden rock]

ma ante

[split grail]

wawa

[golden rock]

ma pona

the mod team on ma ante was originally a copy of ma pona's, eventually whittled down to seli me and lots of additions that were basically people who used ma ante the most

[split grail]

o

could I joined said maw ontey 🥺 👉👈

[golden rock]

https://discord.gg/mcrbGfZz

obligatory warning: yea the server isn't about toki pona

its more of a

place with a lot of people who know toki pona but don't engage with it much

[split grail]

gjsdlfdssfd

Uno Chess

[golden rock]

the name is all over the place

@split grail i just checked and ijo ante was archived 1.5 years ago

wait no

more like

1 year 3 months ago

[split grail]

ahh

[golden rock]

off the top of my head

the biggest change since then imo is jan Kekan San

[split grail]

hkgfhdhjkhg

[golden rock]

lol im not even wrong about that, same timeframe roughly

[split grail]

jan Kekan San li ante e ale

[golden rock]

he helped a lot with Linku and then joined the mod team and later i learned he like makes youtube videos?? and now theres a fanart thread its kinda wild

[split grail]

fjsdlfsd

it is kinda wild

now we got

Kekan fan cams

[golden rock]

sfdlkjshfd;g

wait for real?

[split grail]

I have seen one (1)

[golden rock]

oh my god

[golden rock]

something else that's kinda wild is knowing im like
one of the earliest active members remaining? now that kulupu kasi was removed

getting used to this position but kinda slowly

[split grail]

#1145483914765422682 message
okay good it is just a meme

[split grail]

(aa, why removed if you want to tell)

[golden rock]

i honestly don't remember what exactly it was

just some, moderation stuff

[split grail]

ah okay

[golden rock]

@split grail #ijo-sin-ma message there was this, i can't find the actual ban announcement hto

[golden rock]

anyway what i wanna say is
youre doing a lot of good work as a community historian, feel free to get information out of me

[split grail]

you are now my elder with unlimited knowledge

[golden rock]

lol