LIPAMANKA PI FONT ALA

[leaden cradle]

i have answered every single sona kulupu poll that is applicable to me
like since the beginning of the channel. all of them.

i have also read every single toki lawa log

[rain lotus]

wow

[worldly yacht]

oooh

i actually rly like how toki pona instead forces you to deacribe if the food is bad or good towards ur mouth www

bland: ike
sweet: pona
too sweet: ike

[rain lotus]

there’s suwi

[rain lotus]

realized recently that weka is also a good replacement for lanpan

[leaden cradle]

weka is so used but also so slept on

it can do so many things!!!

[rain lotus]

yes

so true

[sand marsh]

i also like luka, if it includes hand

it just has joink vibes

[echo lion]

mi sina ala e ijo sina

[rain lotus]

YES

[sand marsh]

mi mi e ijo sina?

[echo lion]

I was considering this but mi can include sina

[floral crescent]

that's true 🤔

[echo lion]

mi mi e ijo sina = I share your thing?

I don’t think it implies that it’s no longer ijo sina, at least not without context

[floral crescent]

mi mi tu e ijo mi

[urban fractal]

i steal it twice 😈

[floral crescent]

despair

[sand marsh]

then it can be both steal and borrow :D

or mi mi taso e ijo sina? mi wan?

[echo lion]

I would understand mi taso

[sand marsh]

problem with sina ala is that it clarifies that it isn’t yours but doesn’t clarify that it’s now mine XD

[echo lion]

a a a true!

ijo ni li kama mi li kama sina ala

[sand marsh]

mi mi e ijo sina. sina ken ala jo e ona. ona li ona mi >:]

[echo lion]

I’ve definitely never seen “ona mi” before lmaoo

[visual oracle]

pona

[floral crescent]

i wanna write about learning toki pona, synesthesia, dissociation, and proficiency

they’re connected in a really profound way

• language is a kind of synesthesia
• in order to be proficient in a new language, you need to dissociate it away from any other languages you know so you can think in it
• language proficiency comes when you can dissociate the synesthesia of other languages away

huh wait this isn’t an essay about toki pona

[maiden light]

Hm, I don't know that I would agree, but I am unable to word why

[floral crescent]

it is kinda relying on a few specific definitions

[hushed gorge]

i think i know what you mean, looking forward to essay

[raven ibex]

interesting
these premises make intuitive sense to me
the second premise is a bold statement, and folks might bounce off
you might wanna either justify it, or just ask the reader to take it as a given

[floral crescent]

yeah

or maybe I could say "this is true for me"

[floral crescent]

idea for a course I could make: nasin nasa pi kama sona
design goals:

1. actually teaches the language as a course should
2. teaches the corse in a weird way
3. every new thing taught is taught in a novel way
4. the order in which things are taught is very weird when compared to existing courses (like perhaps I teach interjections first, and then next I teach how to differentiate akesi and soweli, etc)
5. teachings about the grammar, semantics/lexicon, and usage are all woven together in really weird ways

who this course is for:

• basically people with ADHD lol, or more broadly people who need novelty in order to stay engaged with something.

quick sketch for a possible first lesson:

• starts with teaching "waso" for birds
• goes on to explain how if you see a lot of birds, you can say "waso a!" as an interjection
• boom suddenly we learn the word "pakala" and show images of people breaking things
• now we show images of people making mistakes
• we teach "pakala a!" as an interjection when you see a mistake
• boom suddenly we're teaching grammar! we teach how if you follow "mi" with a word, mi is the thing that's doing the word. so "mi waso" means "I'm a bird" and "mi pakala" means "I'm breaking something"
• now we teach how tense doesn't matter. "mi pakala" can be said before, during, or after the even "mi pakala" actually happens

so so far we've only taught four words: waso, pakala, mi, and a. but we've also taught a bunch of random things that all kidna fit together in interesting ways.

when I'm infodumping about toki pona this is kinda how I teach anyway

[tacit totem]

i started off skeptical but honestly i’m sold, this sounds like a great idea

[visual oracle]

presented as a comic book

[floral crescent]

ooooo

[visual oracle]

heartwarming

[leaden cradle]

i had a friend who owned the minecraft bible

it was genuinely pretty cool

[floral crescent]

the whar now?

[leaden cradle]

this

[floral crescent]

omg yes

omg wait is the lower right one joseph

if so then based

jews are based

i wish they were real…

i love minecraft

[echo lion]

I think it’s moses

He was the one w the staff right

[floral crescent]

he is but most of them have staves right

[echo lion]

Idk most (all) of my joseph knowledge is from the amazing technicolor dreamcoat 😭

[floral crescent]

mine is from the movie joseph king of dreams the movie

pretty accurate i’d say?

[echo lion]

The musical is pretty accurate except for when they sing

Also like… everything happening with potiphar

Maybe the musical isn’t super accurate

[floral crescent]

something i should do: verbal descriptions of what each sp glyph is supposed to look like

[blissful crag]

oo my video series has done that bc one of the things I set out to do was make it listening-accessible
which it comes pretty close to!
we can pull from that

I had the idea a while back to also add these descriptions to the words being introduced

the trouble in my lessons is that I introduce each word in a table
and adding descriptions of how the glyph should work makes it a Really Wide Table

[blissful crag]

https://mun.la/sona/mi-sina.html#words-to-know
tentative addition to my mi/sina lesson! while on the clock
also did a few nice lil cleanup tasks, like shrinking the TOC into a spoiler, and moving the separate "word" into a subtitle below each glyph

ok it is impossible to ping lipamanka anymore so i ping via reply
anyway HI obv my descriptions are intended to be very short but here's an example of the idea, thoughts?

[floral crescent]

LMAO

just do @ lipamanka # 2222

it automatically completes

lemme

look

Right hand index finger pointing directly away, analagous to the sign for "you" in many sing languages, presumably pointed at the listener

oh and as for mi,

Left hand pointing thumb at yourself, other fingers closed**, analagous to the sign for "me" in many sign languages**

for toki

Circle with three lines (called "emitters") above like sound from a mouth
in future lessons you can just say "with emitters" or smth

because that is a term that is used a lot in tp spaces it'd be useful to know it

[blissful crag]

i have to shorten it a lot from that, to the point that i don't think i can include the detail about the analogy, or else it looks really crunchy on mobile
but i'll see what i can get in!

[floral crescent]

for jan

Person’s either head or body, and either arms, legs, or shoulders
or something like that

because it's debatable what it is

I don't think that musi has a clear etymology so putting one like the one you did instead of just "an upside down horseshoe shape curve with cirlces at the ends" bight not be a great idea

for suli you could say

Big "V" shape. It's very important that the shape is big
to help reinforce the meaning lmao

[blissful crag]

my goal isn't to describe etymology, but to describe a way you can remember the word

[floral crescent]

I thought it was supposed to be descriptions for how to draw them

[blissful crag]

it's both at once, right

[floral crescent]

I mean my original idea was not for a beginner resource to help beginners remember the shapes

it was more just a list of instructions

[blissful crag]

fair enough ye

[floral crescent]

a bunch of "shoulds" to follow when using sitelen pona

and also a way to make sitelen pona accessible to people who cannot look at the actual symbols themselves y'know?

[blissful crag]

ye for sure!

[floral crescent]

like basically image descriptions + instructions

[blissful crag]

my goal wasn't to be like "yo i am doing your thing"
i knew i was accomplishing something different in doing this in my lessons

[floral crescent]

ah! pona

yes I think it's a good idea anyway

[blissful crag]

sweet :)

[floral crescent]

I should make a video essay about toki pona

[visual oracle]

lyre or headphones, I've seen

[undone crescent]

skipping rope

[echo lion]

I think of it as a smile with two rosy cheeks

It feels like a mouth a puppet would have or smthn

[floral crescent]

i’ve seen those too

[amber bough]

"unofficial" implies there's an official one divinely revealed to mojang

[maiden light]

Does it?

[leaden cradle]

mormonism 2.0

[floral crescent]

or doesn’t imply that tho

[dull sigil]

you don't understand

i require the minecraft holy bible

Like multiple copies

[floral crescent]

and you’ll get them

[dull sigil]

i assume that is an invitation. you know where. send me multiple copies righ tnow

[floral crescent]

yep

totally have the spare money for that…

[dull sigil]

You Do

you're bourgeois right

[floral crescent]

not enough to buy you minecraft bible

[dull sigil]

what!! i thought you were a billionaire!!

[floral crescent]

..what?

[dull sigil]

you're a billionaire!!

[floral crescent]

ferret i have way less than that

if i was a billionaire then you’d have ten thousand dollars from me

[dull sigil]

but you said you were bourgeois

this is unbelievable i cannot believe you would lie to me

[floral crescent]

damn

it’s not like the bourgeoise were in the lowest estate or anything tbh….

[dull sigil]

so true

[floral crescent]

fuck france

[dull sigil]

yeah

[floral crescent]

how to think in toki pona: the essay

somerjjfn about a picture of a car engine

[river jackal]

that might actually be useful for ppl

assumign they found it before being like 4 months in to toki pona

[floral crescent]

yeah

[rain lotus]

not an essay idea but a thing idea: there is some amount of wiggle room around semantic spaces that nobody’s talked about yet

[urban fractal]

no one? 👀

[rain lotus]

not that i’ve seen

not you tbh

[urban fractal]

ive talked about this specifically before

about how semantic spaces aren’t binary in-or-out, they’re fuzzy

so has kili Juli

[rain lotus]

i see

hm. that’s adjacent to what i’m thinking about i think

[urban fractal]

also about scope, and how statements that are not objectively true can be true within a scope
like within the scope of a sitelen, you can say waso li tawa, even tho it’s not a waso and it’s not actually tawa

[rain lotus]

im thinking more about how like you can use words for things

right

wait no i forgot

just a very unfinished thought

[rain lotus]

hm i guess something to mention for my project is that i don’t want to talk much about plurality in the book itself

because i think my mom will want to buy it and try to read it

maybe a toki pona taso section

like most people who’d be able to understand that section probably already know i’m plural

[leaden cradle]

based

a tpt section would be so cool i need more physical tpt content

[rain lotus]

true

yeah tbh I'm just thinking this is gonna be "lipamanka's big book of interesting toki pona things"

[hushed gorge]

I want it

[rain lotus]

and you'll get it

[hushed gorge]

Yes I will

Anyway have fun making the thing

Let me know if you need help in a way that 50 people haven't already offered to help in

[rain lotus]

no 50 people are just the amount of people who've signed up for an interview

[hushed gorge]

Id help with that! Like transcribing things

[rain lotus]

jan Ke Tami is using AI to do that I think? I don't trust it though so I'll be checking all of them by hand anyway

you can transcribe your own interview

[river jackal]

i think you can just ask people to transcribe their own

like id do it, and it seems like everyone else is fine to

and worse they say is "no" but that will probably be a minority

[rain lotus]

oooohhh a text that’s like entirely in toki Ponglish

written by several different people

[maiden light]

aa toki Pinglish li ken musi mute.

[floral crescent]

i was gonna ask you to write some of it (and offer to pay)

[maiden light]

a pona. sina kama sona e wile pali la o dm e mi.

[floral crescent]

pona a

[maiden light]

States are bad, nationalism is bad
the end

[floral crescent]

that would be based and i would promote it on my website 100%

epic

add to my essay about why kipisi isn’t needed: doubling something and halving something is the same type of action in toki pona

[visual oracle]

yup 😦

[leaden cradle]

im so curious as to where the "dick and balls" comes into play

[tired ocean]

very excited for that

ive always disliked "ma pona" concepts

[floral crescent]

it would be funny if it was “mas pona” lol

to make fun of people who do that

[visual oracle]

malpona

[tired ocean]

esperanto island antartica

[floral crescent]

trueeee

tbh @rocky urchin

this is what our interview could be about

i could also reference your essay directly

and talk about in general things that people think are cool and interesting but aren’t really

like for example making a number system

everyone seems to do it when they’re starting off and it’s never interesting

it’s just monotonous

[floral crescent]

nope

this is my tomo

english is allowed as FUCK

but as always feel free to toki pona anyway

[leaden cradle]

it kinds sounds like you just want to Talk To People

[floral crescent]

yep

and i’ll use quotes from all sorts of people like, either in footnotes or just in the main texts

[leaden cradle]

gonna be so cool

[floral crescent]

yesss

I have decided I'm going to do a pre-interview discussion before I start making questions

just like a casual chat to plan out what we'll speak about

[leaden cradle]

nice, nice

[floral crescent]

OMGOMGOMG

omg

[leaden cradle]

LIES you said dick and balls TWICE

[visual oracle]

@rocky urchin o pana e ni lon #pana

[floral crescent]

wawARR

it’s a really good and important essay

post it on the subreddit

and the “ma pona” subreddit

i don’t like reddit but i go there every now and then to toki ponar

AH i’ll do it

[visual oracle]

I've been getting those bad vibes from the ma pona posts forever but I didn't have such a well written resource to explain why

[floral crescent]

grandma wants my attention rn though so it’ll be in a bit

[hasty steeple]

this ^^

[floral crescent]

https://www.reddit.com/r/tokipona/comments/105bhnz/ma_pona_sucks_fantastic_essay_by_the_rats/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

posted it

i decided to be like “one sec grandma gotta post an essay one of my friends wrote about toki pona and like colonialism”

do you use collective he/him pronouns

or they them

what pronouns should i use

great

yes i always ask

[gloomy shale]

sitelen kule len pi toki pona li ken pona tawa ijo wan ni
ilo li ken kepeken toki mute la ona li ken sitelen e ni kepeken len pi toki pona

[floral crescent]

sitelen kule len seme

a… mi sona ala

[gloomy shale]

a ni li lon...toki inli o len pi ma seme

lon la ilo mute li weka e sitelen ma toki

tan ni

[floral crescent]

hm i want to justify why i want english to always be allowed in this channel. i don’t want to gatekeep these discussions behind a language barrier. people who cant speak toki pona well enough to engage in these conversations definitely have super interesting shit to say and even on toki pona day i want the space surrounding my projects to continue to be accessible to everyone. i really WANT people who can’t have long deep convos in tp to engage in my project actually.

[gloomy shale]

mi o ante e toki mi. ni li pona ala

[floral crescent]

jan Tepo can you pin that

[gloomy shale]

mi awen wile toki pona, a a a

[floral crescent]

ni li pona

sina ken toki pona, ni li awen pona

micheal everson is shitty so neither will ever get added

lowkey hate him

you hate him too now

(im indoctrinating you)

okay gtg

[gloomy shale]

a jan Michael Everson li pali ala tawa sitelen ma pi nasin juniko

ni li kulupu ante li jan ante

anu seme

o utala e ona

a nasin pona li ni

o toki tawa kulupu Samsung

ona li pana e sitelen lon ilo ona taso la kulupu Juniko li kama wile e ona tan ni: sitelen sama o ken lon ilo ale

open la nasin sitelen Emosi li kama lon nasin Juniko tan ni: kulupu Apple li pana lon ilo ona taso, jan mute pi ilo Apple li kepeken, taso nasin ilo ante li ken ala lukin e sitelen

taso sina o kama sona a e ni: nanpa seme o sitelen e ni

ilo mute li kepeken nanpa sama la nasin juniko o kama kepeken nanpa ni

[floral crescent]

lmao my grandma called toki pona “pokémon or what was it again”

[rocky urchin]

@rocky urchin wonderful essay! i love your writing style, it's so easy to comprehend. and, i highly value the perspective you gave on a topic that also grinds my gears

oh and u said dick and balls twice smh 😤

[tacit totem]

my uncle called it “toki pono” without having heard the meme

[floral crescent]

@rocky urchin i read my grandma part of your thing and she said you write very well

and she agrees

yay grandma

[brave rune]

I actually had to read it twice to understand lol but is the point you're making that existing ma pona depictions are bad because they uphold a specific unpona idea of civilization, or emphasize a stereotype of another form of society/kulupu?

If that makes sense?

[floral crescent]

now they’re complaining about racism

i love them

my grandma’s complaining about jews doing black face

yayyy

(huge problem historically)

[brave rune]

if you're looking for suggestions, a more concrete conclusion section could be helpful for driving these points home.

I personally had to reread it once before I understood what the main argument was

makes sense

[floral crescent]

my grandparents think that white colonizers should give like way more money to indigenous peoples

[brave rune]

If you don't participate in the online community, or exclusively hang out in the more radical, cool parts of it, you might not know how pervasive this trope is in the community. But it's really, really common. I've been hearing whispers of projects that make me think it's trending towards an upswing in popularity, which is a shameful regression in our community discourse.
do you have more specific examples of this? I'm not doubting that it happens or anything but I am genuinely curious

There are a lot of points in your essay that are really well portrayed and written that make me want more evidence and details. Basically you have to write a part 2 or else 🔫

yeah I figured that would be the response 😔🔫
I wanna read that one thing you mentioned. is it a book?

[umbral stream]

I just finished reading, well done a

there are so many quotable moments in here that i was tempted to just paste in here and go "THIS"

[brave rune]

Also can I ask an unrelated question? Why "no tone tags or else"? :3c

[round python]

Forgive me for being incompetent but I don't see how "hey look at this idea i had for a society" is an inherently racist thing... what sides are people picking for... engaging in worldbuilding? Like I get the "toki pona is simple so the society should be primitive" thing, that's a bad idea of what "ma pona" would theoretically be like and is racist. But I don't see how every idea of a possible "ma pona" is racist? Am I missing something?

[brave rune]

okie.

[round python]

i hate the primitive trope ma pona idea, that sucks and i see it to be racist

but like when i think of "ma pona" I think of a very advanced society on the same level as other countries today with a different culture than my own. What that different culture is I can't pinpoint and I would rather get a bunch of toki pona speakers in a place and find out what culture comes out of it instead of trying to make guesses but I definitely don't think primitive, just different. A mix of things from around the world

your writing reads to me less that you don't like the "ma pona" concept and more that you don't like the concept of a fictional civilization... are stories that happen in a fictional universe that have a civilization racist because they "pick a side" on cultural issues or are you specifically ragging on the "primitive" idea of "ma pona" (in which case I very much agree with you and don't like that idea of "ma pona")

I don't think the way i interpret the way you wrote is what you actually mean to say is what I'm saying

[round python]

and i want to see your viewpoint

[floral crescent]

my grandpere is complaining about music compression now

[round python]

i don't think i am either which is why im asking questions here

[brave rune]

so is your main problem that people call the ma "pona"?

[floral crescent]

god he's randing about compression

video compression

wow

[round python]

im not really a reader... I have read one book outside of the ones i was forced to read in high school (and i didn't even read those ones) and I didn't even read it I listened to it as an audiobook

[brave rune]

a

[round python]

i think "ma pona" can be "pona" but the way that I personally see a lot of people realizing it is very very not pona

[gloomy shale]

mi lon kulupu
sitelen anpa

[floral crescent]

it's not on an indigenous person to explain racism to you... my grandpere just left but if you're asking to have stuff explained to you about this then stop, explaining these things is like really tiring

[round python]

no this is not me saying I don't want to learn. I do. Reading is not the medium in which I learn the best. It's a medium that leaves me confused and re-reading over and over (and its the reason I'm here, reading leaves me confused)

[visual oracle]

I think they're asking you to realize that you're asking them to spend their energy educating you about how they're oppressed, which isn't a great dynamic

[floral crescent]

and don't try to keep engaging with an indigenous person after they've expressed they want to stop talking about these things in a discord cahnnel about lipamanka's toki pona essays

you're not like entitled to their attention and trying to force it is shitty

[visual oracle]

I'm sympathetic to not knowing where to look to learn more but especially in this case they've given you some direction, now spend some of your own energy to learn about it. Your library might be able to get an audio book copy of the suggestion if you'd rather not read print

But yeah this isn't the place

lipamanka o I'm looking forward to your book btw

[floral crescent]

yay

[visual oracle]

It's a cool project idea

[umbral stream]

wait what? ayo? book?

[visual oracle]

Hypothetically

[gloomy shale]

lipu

a. lipu lipamanka

[floral crescent]

hypothetically I'm writing a book about everything in toki pona minus syntax and phonology

[umbral stream]

sounds fun

[floral crescent]

yes I'm super excited

hm jan Mika you better be typing an apology because you've been typing for a while

especially because as mentioned this isn't a place to be disagreeing with jan Natan

[round python]

ok! im also not trying to force their attention, its more "I have questions, I left reading this very confused and I think talking to the person who wrote it would help." if they don't want to answer that is fine! I do want to find resources to learn about things like this that work for me because I understand that I am a white privileged person and theres a lot I don't know. Reading is something that doesn't work for me and the way I tend to learn best is by talking to people, learning about their experiences by just... asking about them. I personally love when people do the same to me about trans issues because I am trans and will share the ways in which I've been oppressed because I think it can be the source of change. If someone else does not want to do that, that's fine, but I am, and do, want to look for people or resources in a medium that I can understand to learn about these sorts of things.

I also hate when people say "hey this thing is perpetuating racist stereotypes" and then people who are involved in that thing think that they are being called racist and the systemic issues are never solved and I'm trying actively to not be that person. Please do forgive me

[floral crescent]

to clarify: it's a bad look, as a white person, to openly disagree with a nonwhite person about racism, and my thread is not the place for that

[round python]

alright, I would go to natan's dms but it doesn't look like they want to discuss this with me. I was just pointed here from the #pana post (below) and thought this would be the place for... feedback and discussion...

mi tawa

[floral crescent]

okay please don't come back to this thread unless you want to talk about my essays 👍

[round python]

maybe a seperate thread can be made for it?

[floral crescent]

I don't think you're welcome in those dialogues anymore, fwiw

[round python]

not your essays, the "ma pona" essay

ok mi tawa for real

[floral crescent]

yep it seems like you're not welcome in discussions about that essay

[rain lotus]

rats write good words

though hm the def of civ feels. incomplete

to be fair that's my vibe for all defs of civ i've seen

i think the cited book fills that in?

jinx

i'm illiterate 😔

(to be clear i've read/listened to many other things on civ, from (mostly american afaik) indigenous and white writers both, i just am bad at Books)

the post says various bad ma pona manifestations are bad but doesn't say what would be good, can i expect to find answers to that in the book

it does say what would be good

yay

oh the post?

no i mean the post

The closest we can get are the authentic communities that we create ourselves.

i missed that

this is more clear thanks

i do but i also have no money

[hushed gorge]

i should probably send this essay to the "ma pona worldbuilding" thread in the kama sona server /seeking validation

[rain lotus]

give me money so i can get it (don't if i really wanted i could just crimes it)

gods i hate auto embeds

[urban fractal]

you can make it not embed with <link>

[rain lotus]

yeah i did that afterwards

[urban fractal]

a

[rain lotus]

i just forgot to edit rather than repost lol

[hushed gorge]

wdym? it might start some kinda not-great discourse (kinda like what happened here) but i think it might ultimately turn out educational

[tacit totem]

i’m not familiar with that server but thank you for introducing me to that tone tag

[hushed gorge]

official tone tags are lame, i just put a slash then whatever i want

[urban fractal]

/ is just alu but based

[tacit totem]

fair enough

[hushed gorge]

absolutely

[rain lotus]

this is why i only really talk Politics with ppl who already understand it lol

i should be as allowed to be a dick and get mad in the heat of the moment as a white person
because I really am not

respectability politics is poison honestly

[hushed gorge]

thank you very much for you essay. it kinda worries me how easily i could have just not read it then not learned anything about the world and went along with the racism you describe

not to say i dont anymore, but i hope this is at least a step in the right direction

[leaden cradle]

my mom does this too

[rain lotus]

hm
are there any of these mas pona that are actually discussed in tp
because a part of the problem might honestly just be "beginners don't get tp's vibe right"

[leaden cradle]

i see So Many jan sin come in with the understanding that "oh so its like a little island tribe language" and they dont see the problem with that line of thinking

[maiden light]

lon a a

[rain lotus]

redditors (derogatory)

[maiden light]

True

[urban fractal]

real

[rain lotus]

calling me out

oh wait

i thought you meant like

ma pona (here) project

bc i wasn't thinking, basically

[hushed gorge]

that one in the kama sona server has existed for about a month or so? but it's mostly pretty fizzled out and idk if i'd call it a "project" even

[rain lotus]

ma pona (here) ma pona (ike) projects

[urban fractal]

servers names are the the most lexicalized things ever 👀

[rain lotus]

for context i'd previously attempted to describe a tp people based mostly on how tp is actually used, but it never got far

[urban fractal]

every time someone uses "ma pona" in toki pona without prior context to refer to this place, i explode inside a little bit

ma Mapopitopo 😌 /shitposting

[maiden light]

every time ||someone uses "ma pona" in toki pona without prior context to refer to this place,|| you explode ||inside a little bit||

[echo lion]

It could be because people get used to lexicalizing in english

[urban fractal]

real

[hushed gorge]

huh i didnt even think about how english lexicalizes too

[echo lion]

Yeah, like i get very used to calling this server “ma pona” in english

So my brain immediately reaches for that phrase in toki pona

[urban fractal]

ma suli pi toki pona

i renamed the server to that for like ten seconds once for a shitpost but also that is a good description of the place and i've used it before

not that this ma li pona ala but there are other ma pona pi toki pona, its suli is a good distinguishing factor

[hushed gorge]

yeah i like that

[echo lion]

ma pimeja pi toki pona because discord is like my only app in dark mode

[rain lotus]

ma telo pi toki pona bc it's been raining all week

no thank u i like the wet

[round python]

ok ok I know I've been banished but I've reread it and I definitely misinterpreted what you said (reading is very much not a medium which effectively transfers information to me)

If I understand correctly we agree on this topic. The way I understood it before the second reading was "All fictional civilizations are bad." when what you meant was "All fictional Civilizations™ are bad."

I think the way I asked if my interpretation was actually what you meant came off as incensitive and I'm sorry, I did not mean it the way I came off as.

My idea of "ma pona" is very much non specific and is something that cannot be written but rather discovered. I think you put this best with "The closest we can get are the authentic communities that we create ourselves." This is very much an idea I agree with and is what I was trying to ask if you meant with this message #1032830156676538378 message.

Also this message #1032830156676538378 message pretty much exactly sums up my thoughts on this issue.

Thank you for the essay kulupu Mimuki, I appriciate that you took the time to write it out and I'm sorry that I misinterpreted it and came off as incensitive.

[rain lotus]

this tbh

[in general, i should say]

anyway gonna make ma pona (a bunch of queer ppl squatting)

[hushed gorge]

waso o is this a good time to ask you about those ku suli words i added for sitelen nena the braille thing

[rain lotus]

honestly i want to hold off on helping with that until i get my housemate's braille display working again

[hushed gorge]

oh neat!

have fun

[rain lotus]

probably won't!

[leaden cradle]

[floral crescent]

@rocky urchin when movie’s over i’m gonna plug you in my website i can’t believe i forgot lmao

[floral crescent]

time to add

[maiden light]

tenpo kin

[floral crescent]

NICE

FUNNY NUMBER INTERVIEWS

anyway . .. that's a lot of interviews

[floral crescent]

okay idk how to update my website from this computer so it'll have to wait

sorry @rocky urchin I feel bad bc the timing was so good

[echo lion]

Do you still need help w/ conducting or transcribing interviews?

[floral crescent]

uhhhhhHHHhhhhHHHHH HHHHH

hhhhhhh

hhhhhh

[echo lion]

I feel that

[floral crescent]

jan Kekan San was gonna use an ai to transcribe things but I do want someone who is less hard of hearing than me to listen through the things y'know

[echo lion]

I could help 😇

[floral crescent]

yes 🙏

[maiden light]

(awen la mi kin)

[rain lotus]

(mi kin kin)

[floral crescent]

I said someone who's less hard of hearing than me

[rain lotus]

rood

i'm good at recordings!

yeah

that's why i'm good at them :p

my hears are trained to listen to the same recording 15 times to get its phonetic transcription just right

[floral crescent]

ic

[rain lotus]

so just transcribing speech will be nothing

[floral crescent]

can you transcribe all of the interviews

[rain lotus]

if you give me at least 2 goats

and/or "real" money

[floral crescent]

LMAO

anyway

1. people can listen through their own interviews if they want, they get to choose if that's their preference
2. if they don't want to, they can choose either me or a volunteer to do it
3. if they don't care then I can choose a volunteer
4. if there are no volunteers I'm paying someone

transcribe -> verify transcription/format

[rain lotus]

not a single one lol

واس فيمي لي موس لون سيتلن 🌱 ↩️

[Reply to:](#1032830156676538378 message) hm
are there any of these mas pona that are actually discussed in tp
because a part of the problem m…

that said we are currently having this discussion in english...

[floral crescent]

I think the difference is that we have good takes unlike them

taso
wile la
toki pona li ken a

[urban fractal]

id be fine transcribing my own interview

[echo lion]

I volunteer to be a volunteer

[floral crescent]

epic

you will now be transcribing all interviews

👍

there's no going back

[echo lion]

Ok :3

/i am not doing that

[floral crescent]

in that case ur volunteer is rejected (im joking)

[gloomy shale]

nn ni li kama ike tawa mi
toki pona li ken pona e toki pi tomo ni anu seme?
taso tenpo mute mute la jan pi toki pona li toki inli taso lon ni
o toki pona
tenpo suno ante ale la jan pi toki inli li ken toki li ken pilin

(taso ni li tomo lipamanka la wile mi taso o lawa ala)

[floral crescent]

mi wile e toki pona lon tomo ni
mi wile e toki Inli lon tomo ni
toki tu li ken
sina ken toki pona la o toki tenpo pona
o toki Inli kin lon tenpo tan ni ->
mi wile e jan pi wawa ala
pilin ona li suli
taso sina toki e lon
toki pona li ken pona e tomo ni a
mi pana sin e toki ni -> ona li awen lon sewi

[gloomy shale]

nasin lawa li ken ala ken ni: sina ken toki pona la sina o toki pona

[rain lotus]

mi wile kepeken toki pona lon tenpo ale
taso sitelen Lasina li ike mute tawa mi
mi ken ala lukin e ona mute
la mi toki Inli
mi lukin taso e toki Inli
ni li ike tawa mi

[echo lion]

sina ken ala ken sitelen UCSUR e ilo sina?

[urban fractal]

lipu la mi pana e wile ni - mi toki toki en lipamanka - lipu ni la wile sona tu li lon - "o toki e nasin toki sina" - "poka la sina toki insa e seme pi nasin toki" - mi toki mute lon ni - ken suli la mi wile toki sin lon kama - ni li ken ala ken

[rain lotus]

mi ni lon tenpo pini

[echo lion]

nnnn taso jan lili li toki lon nasin ni

[rain lotus]

taso ijo lili li kepeken nasin sitelen ni

a

lawa sama

[floral crescent]

I want to make a clear set of expectations for which languages I want to be used in this channel. Above all else, these two things will always hold true:

• if you want to speak in toki pona, you can speak in toki pona. this is a toki pona server and these discussions are about toki pona.
• if you want to speak in english, you can speak in english. some people can't engage in deep discussion in toki pona. that's fine! I care about what they have to say too.
  (also if you want to speak in another language that's fine too)

secondary to that, consider this:

• speaking in toki pona can improve the quality of content of discussion, so even if you'd prefer to speak in english, trying to at least sometimes speak in toki pona will be helpful
• speaking in English helps open the discussion up to people who can't engage in long form discussions in toki pona. this is especially important to my project because I want to be descriptive of beginner's thoughts, feelings, and usage as much as I'm descriptive of the usage of fluent speakers, so if you prefer to speak in toki pona, consider opening up your opinions to those who can't.
  (keep in mind that these two are secondary to what I have above, but they're still important)

(please unpin the other one and pin this one)

[floral crescent]

wawARR

[gloomy shale]

pona

[hushed gorge]

Super cool

[floral crescent]

yeah you can edit your response actually

[urban fractal]

mi o weka e ni tan sewi Pins anu seme

[floral crescent]

yes

[gloomy shale]

sina ken ala ken pana e ante tawa ilo siko sina (sama ilo Vencord)

ken la mi ken pali e ilo ni: ona li ante e sitelen lasina tawa sitelen pona lon toki ale

[floral crescent]

poka la

• mi wile sitelen sin e ni
• mi wile pana sin e ni
  taso
  ni li kama

[gloomy shale]

'poka la' la tenpo anu ijo toki li poka

[floral crescent]

toki

en tenpo a a

sina pana e sona

[rain lotus]

a mi ante suli e ilo toki
la ilo mi li kama pali ike
tenpo ni
la mi kepeken ilo OpenASAR taso

jan pi tbodt Tepo ↩️

[Reply to:](#1032830156676538378 message) sina ken ala ken pana e ante tawa ilo siko sina (sama ilo Vencord)

[gloomy shale]

aa

[floral crescent]

hm. one of the reasons why I don't like speaking in toki pona that much online is because toki pona in the latin script is really annoying for me to read

[gloomy shale]

ilo o PONA

[floral crescent]

I did have a lot of therapy to help me learn how to read specifically english

[gloomy shale]

o tawa WILE MI

ilo li LON TAN NI

[floral crescent]

but I didn't have any of that therapy for toki pona so

it's annoying

[urban fractal]

latin is mathematically bad for toki pona (0% joke)

[floral crescent]

that's why I've been experimenting with new nasin sitelens

[floral crescent]

like this

and trying to write much shorter messages

[floral crescent]

100% funny

[urban fractal]

real

[rain lotus]

sentence ender la 😔

[gloomy shale]

n sitelen 'sitelen seli kiwen asuki' li ken ala ken pona

[rain lotus]

ala
ona li ike suli tawa lukin mi

[gloomy shale]

mi o ken pana e wawa ona pi sitelen lasina tawa nasin sitelen ante

ilo....

[floral crescent]

it's like fine...

also I'm not using line breaks for sentence seperation there

the la makes that clear

otherwise I am

[rain lotus]

nasin sitelen pi jan Itan li pona tawa mi

jan Natan ∴ Mimuki [no tone tags or else] ↩️

[Reply to:](#1032830156676538378 message) sitelen seme li pona mute tawa sina?

sitelen ale li ike!! >:(((( 📎

[gloomy shale]

tawa mi kin a

[rain lotus]

nasin kama lipamanka li pona kin

[floral crescent]

pona a!!!

a a mi pali e ona la ijo suli ni li lon

• ni li pona tawa mi
• ni li pona tawa kulupu
• ni li pona tawa waso

[gloomy shale]

nasa la mi ante lon ken lukin sitelen

mi la sitelen pona li ike, sitelen lasina li wawa

taso ni li tan ni: mi lukin mute e sitelen lasina li lukin kama wawa

[urban fractal]

mi lukin e toki suli pi sitelen Lasina la ale li kama sama la sona li wile e pali mute

[floral crescent]

nasa la I'm disabled

[hushed gorge]

sitelen Lasina li lape e mi 😴

[floral crescent]

ni ^^^^^^ NI

[gloomy shale]

mi o wawa e sitelen pi jan itan

[urban fractal]

wawa seme

[gloomy shale]

ni: mi pana tawa ilo siko la toki pona ale la sitelen lasina li kama sitelen pona

[urban fractal]

a pona

[gloomy shale]

ni li pona waso anu seme

a a a

[floral crescent]

o pana e ilo ni tawa wawa Petasiko

[gloomy shale]

ilo BetterDiscord li moli, taso ilo Vencord li lon

[floral crescent]

(jan lawa pi ilo Siko li sona ala toki pona la mi ken toki e ni -> o kepeken ilo Petasiko)

a ona li moli a

mi sona ala e ni

[urban fractal]

ilo Siko pi pona ete

[floral crescent]

DO YOU KNOW WHAT MY FUCKING BOOK NEEDS

A HUGE AMOUNT OF EXAMPLES

[gloomy shale]

ilo Penko li pona, taso ona li sin mute

aa

[floral crescent]

OF LIKE TOKI POAN BEING USED

IN CONTEXT

[gloomy shale]

kepeken ona la mi toki pona e ilo siko

[floral crescent]

kind of like jan Kekan San's lessons but like. written down

[floral crescent]

and in a book

[urban fractal]

ilo li moli seme - mi kepeken ona lon tenpo lon a

[hushed gorge]

lipamanka im going to time travel to the future and go read your book right now

[floral crescent]

THIS IS HOW I FEEL

[urban fractal]

i wanna time travel to the future and listen to my music

[hushed gorge]

since when did you make music?! (wheres that time travel grammar article)

[urban fractal]

i have like 10 half-complete song ideas but my BRAIN is fucking PAKALA

[hushed gorge]

are we the same person

[floral crescent]

skill issue

[urban fractal]

hehe

i should start working on my music right now i feel really good rn
except it's 2 am and i should be asleep
but like first thing tomorrow

[floral crescent]

the good news is that I will keep half of my book's content free as I make it

the other half will be released for free a month after the book comes out

[urban fractal]

lonnnnn

[floral crescent]

KALA A

kala en mi li sama a

[hushed gorge]

extra bonus inspirational advice: you're travelling to the future right now, so make music (it sounded better in my head)

[floral crescent]

an example of how to use kala as an interjection in toki pona

(it's when ur excited about fish)

[floral crescent]

damn I feel super motivated

[hushed gorge]

me too

[floral crescent]

amazing

[sand marsh]

sike waso li moku pona tawa kasi! a, selo taso li pona

mi wile kulupu e selo pi sike waso, o pana tawa kasi mi…

[floral crescent]

LIPAMANKA BOOK

👁️

[urban fractal]

merge them as "sitelen lipamanka"
or even better, "sitelens lipamanka"

[sand marsh]

sin la selo sike li ike tawa luka uta… sina mute e selo tawa kon, sama telo kon kili la, ona li pakala ala pakala e uta? (° ｡)

[floral crescent]

ew latin

[urban fractal]

hehehe

[floral crescent]

but no they are completely unrelated projects

[sand marsh]

sina awen sitelen e sitelen lili anu seme? sina sitelen e sitelen suli taso anu seme?

[floral crescent]

mi awen sitelen e sitelen lili

mi tu e lipu mute mi sama ni ->

• lipu nanpa wan li tawa lipamanka.github.io
• lipu nanpa tu li tawa poki mi
• lipu nanpa mute li tawa lipamanka.github.io
• lipu nanpa mute li tawa poki mi
• sama ni
• mi jo e lipu mute la lipu ale li tawa lipu suli

sina sona ala sona

[urban fractal]

sona

[sand marsh]

mi sona e mute, poki sina li seme?

lipu suli li kulupu pi lipu lili, lon ala lon?

[floral crescent]

poki sama ni

a a a

ken la mi pana e poki tawa jan ni -> ona li alasa pona e lipu mi

taso mi pana ala tawa jan mute tan ni -> mi pana la jan mute li kama wile ala esun e lipu mi lon kama ona

lipu li kama la tenpo li kama li weka la mi pana e lipu tawa jan ale

[sand marsh]

a! lipu poki li lipu len. pona pona

[floral crescent]

a a ni

mi len e lipu poki

[maiden light]

nimi seme li ken ala ni? pilin mi la taso la nimi pi kon ala (sama nimi "pi," sama nimi "e") li ken ala lon pana taso sama ni.

[floral crescent]

nimi ni li ken ala lon pilin mi

(nimi pi kon ala li ken ala)

[maiden light]

taso ni li taso ala taso lon ken pi lon pana taso?
taso...

(nimi pi kon ala li taso ala taso lon ken ala ni)

[floral crescent]

taso

ni li pana e ike tawa lawa mi tawa pilin lawa mi a a a

[maiden light]

a a

taso content word usage

[floral crescent]

I'M EXCITED because I have a new poll I'm gonna make !!

form rather

i'm just. I don't think I'll be able to sleep until this is done

[hushed gorge]

i knwo what you mean

[maiden light]

mi kin

[floral crescent]

I have a form template now

mfw I'm too tired to fuckign

[dull sigil]

wawaor

[floral crescent]

so true

WAIT BESTIE??? omg bestie

[dull sigil]

im bed

[floral crescent]

true me kama ni

I just gotta pjama first

*finish thing

wtf

https://forms.gle/5mph3mCFT9944B4F9

hre's my template

okay edited it slightly

try it out!

I'm very worried that my FORM POLICIES are too BIG

[hushed gorge]

I personally did not read the form policies [FORM POLICIES]

[floral crescent]

well yeah I doubt anyone will

or maybe some people will

but if people are going to submit the form I want them to agree to things in advance

[hushed gorge]

I probably would have if my response wasnt 90% a joke

[floral crescent]

do you think them being there on every poll will get old

[hushed gorge]

No I think that's important, but it's also important to say that it is in fact the same on every poll so participants only have to look at it once

[floral crescent]

ye

I did say that

👍

[hushed gorge]

Yeah I liked that

[floral crescent]

if I change them at all I'll be like THESE HAVE BEEN UPDATED

anything else? or is this good

because this means I can bang out polls pretty quickly

[hushed gorge]

Different poll topics might solicit more spaces for responses, idk what you have in mind

Looks like a pretty effective poll format all around to me

[floral crescent]

like I'm gonna put more questions in almost every form

that's just kind of a placeholder so I can "duplicate poll" and just put the content and it's so easy

[hushed gorge]

winning

[floral crescent]

fwiw about two years ago "intermediate" was considered "proficient"

now the server culture has changed so much that it's almost obselite

I mean that's fine

they're very lose metrics

I might write an essay about what kinds of things make you proficianty but like if I know you well enough feel free to just be like "I'm rats"

like if you think that I lipamanka can judge your proficiency, I probably would have mostly ignored your response anyway and labeled you how I think is most descriptive and useful for my poll anyway

like this is descriptivism but it's also completely qualitative, in stark contrast to ku

which is why honestly? I think it will be more useful

like ku is fine

yeah also ku stops being useful once you get to a certain level of proficiency

beyond "oh lol I didn't think of that yeah that could work"

yeah

like I don't look at ku anymore

I didn't even bring it to college with me

tbh I didn't look at it much when I bought it. I was proficient enough then

pona a!

and it's useful to beginners AS LONG AS they do not lexicalize with it too much

"birds are technically akesi"

can you show her lipamanka saying "none of 79 tokiponists survayed included birds under akesi"

the only two people who mentioned birds at all in the akesi section of their form response specified that akesi DOESN'T include birds

so I mean is your partner a descriptivist or not

I mean it sounds like she just got defeated by facts and logic

I have a HUGE SAMPLE SIZE

she CANNOT WIN

my sample size is bigger than hers

LOL

u should divorce her tbh

yeah i assumed do it anyway

[gloomy shale]

jan mute la: akesi li waso
jan pi mute lili la: waso li akesi

[floral crescent]

nice I can now brag about having 80 people doing my first form

[floral crescent]

actually there's one person who thinks wsao can be akesi

but that person answered taxonomically for like every question tbh

not cringe tho I'm happy with nasa takes

[paper ridge]

bird is akesi

[floral crescent]

yeah i agree

some birds are akesi

like some flightless birds look pretty akesi

[paper ridge]

is bird? yes? is akesi.

[floral crescent]

I mean are you going to argue with me, making a source that can be cited

I'm literally citing myself

look I win because I'm lipamanka

I mean

you could make some interesting arguments about birds being akesi

but "bird is akesi" is way more boring than any of those arguments

and I'm not telling you any of them >:D

(UNLESS she admits that I'm right and then I'll tell her)

and I will

I have like a cool interesting thing

anyway I WIN

[floral crescent]

I mean. most people agree with that

[paper ridge]

is only pipi when its food stuff not living stuff

[floral crescent]

inaccurate, descriptively

I mean you can use pipi for when it's eaten

and kala for when it's not

if you want

[floral crescent]

https://forms.gle/yLRXhoCUdQ9xDzMY7

I'm going to limit myself to one form a week from this point going forward

[umbral jackal]

can confirm

[rain lotus]

birds are waso or soweli
i've never seen a bird that's akesi

[sand marsh]

penguins are kinda slimy and amphibious so maybe they can be akesi?

[rain lotus]

oh that's true i have been defeated

[floral crescent]

penguins are jan bc they look like jans and move like jans

[umbral jackal]

they are linux users

[keen forum]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaly-breasted_munia

[rain lotus]

that's just a waso

many birds have scales, lol

esp on their faces and legs

[floral crescent]

big cw for animal abuse ||i was about to pull up pictures of featherless birds to try to prove a point and then realized that birds usually pluck their own feathers out when they’re being abused and naturally featherless birds don’t sound like a thing||

||and yeah it looks like all birds have at least some feathers||

[rain lotus]

||there are birds with certain genetic wiggly wogs that end up featherless, but i don't think that applies to any whole species||

[floral crescent]

cw human abuse ||still not the best thing to be looking up whilst recovering from a panic attack because my grandma is trying to help me fix my sleeping schedule and guilting me when i tell her i have needs YAY||

||i have a DISORDER stop trying to help me be a NORMAL PERSON||

[rain lotus]

i hug u

[floral crescent]

aw that’s what rywko says to me

||i thought when i became an adult and moved to college this would stop. i almost forgot about it. but it’s back. ugh.||

anywya enough lipamanka vent

this is lipamanka book

[leaden cradle]

yay the name changed

[floral crescent]

yeeeeee

[hasty steeple]

|| i get this so much my mum is trying to do the same it's really infuriating||

|| going home tomorrow though 🙏 ||

[floral crescent]

get some piller mller meals and moths

ask me to explain their later

*this

[hushed gorge]

I answered the form but the quality of my answers went way down by the end

[crimson kite]

I awnsered the form and I put a very specific personal inforamtion in it that doesn’t actually help dox me that much

[gloomy shale]

mi pana e pilin kepeken nimi ni taso 'mi sona ala, mi toki taso'

mi sona pona ala e nasin toki mi

sina wile sona la o toki tawa mi o kute tan mi

[floral crescent]

lmao wtf i was literally asleep i don’t remember

[tacit totem]

tenpo ali la mi sona ala, mi toki taso
ken la ni li ike suli
mi wile toki tan sona taso, tan sona lili ala, tan wile toki taso ala

[gloomy shale]

jan sona li wile kama sona e nasin toki la tenpo mute la jan toki li sona ala li toki taso

ni la jan sona li alasa kepeken nasin mute

ken la ona li pana e sitelen mute tawa jan toki li toki e ni : o toki e ijo sitelen

sama ni "<sitelen la jan li tu e kili kepeken ilo kipisi> jan li seme e kili"

@floral crescent ken la sina o alasa sama ni

[floral crescent]

a ni li pona

taso lipu ni li alasa ala pana e sona ni pi toki pona -> jan sin li wile e ona tawa kama ken

A MI KAMA SONA E WILE SINA

ni li sewi

ken la mi kama kepeken nasin ni

I'm going to redo some of my polls in the long run

these first few forms are gonna be mostly like me learning about it

[floral crescent]

coming next: gender form

[visual oracle]

wait

you missed an opportunity

*** L I P U M A N K A ***

[floral crescent]

https://lipamanka.github.io

[visual oracle]

https://tenor.com/view/dumbledore-welp-well-oh-well-gif-8398567

[floral crescent]

I mean

lawa wawa li toki sama

[visual oracle]

mu pona

[floral crescent]

ni a

oh I should add a list of my own non-englishy proverbs as examples for how to make up your own

like yeah this one's englishy but it's also toki ponaey

[visual oracle]

yeah it felt very toki pona

the thing I always say is pakala li kama e sona

if you want a saying

[floral crescent]

ye I phrased it so it felt very pona

pakala li kama e sona is also pretty toki pona

[tacit totem]

soko o, are there any things i should avoid talking about when answering your surveys? for example, should i avoid using examples of my usages of words that involve moku?

[leaden cradle]

lawa wawa li toki sama is SO FUN TO SAY

[floral crescent]

nothing you should avoid at all! as long as it’s not like bigoted

[floral crescent]

ikr

autism moment

[tacit totem]

thank you!

[jolly rivet]

#ijo-ante message
it's been said only once before

[floral crescent]

so I basically coined it

I'm taking the credit, anyway

[jolly rivet]

basically, yeah

[floral crescent]

i’m surprised nobody mentioned lupa for “cut but not entirely in half” in my form

[maiden light]

I would never call this a lupa, I think.

[gloomy shale]

ni li lupa a tawa mi

[floral crescent]

ni li lupa a

[gloomy shale]

ni li ken ala lupa tan seme

[ionic axle]

how

I did

[maiden light]

ona li ken lupa. I just wouldn't call it a lupa.

[ionic axle]

I briefly mentioned the idea

[floral crescent]

oh did you

[urban fractal]

pakala ma ni li lupa

wow ma ni real??

[maiden light]

mi la I'm very unlikely to call something a lupa if it's small enough that nothing really fits inside it.

[urban fractal]

coin

[maiden light]

ni nanpa wan li lupa. ni nanpa tu li lupa ala.
(tawa mi)

[floral crescent]

my search and find feature must be broken

whoopsee

[urban fractal]

i think the thing that makes the second one maybe not lupa is that they go around the broken pieces entirely
so they could maybe just be weka rather than lupa
but the pieces are still holding together so they are in fact lupa imo

[floral crescent]

hm it’s still not coming up but someone else mentioned it

i’m going to check when i’m not sleep deprived and when i’m not in the midst of a migraine

[maiden light]

ni la this is a lupa tawa sina, anu seme?

[urban fractal]

oh definitely

[floral crescent]

yep

100%

something can go through the lupa

or inside of it

[maiden light]

I would be more likely to call that a lupa with water escaping from it now that I think about it, but I probably wouldn't call it that in general.

[floral crescent]

toki pona doesn’t distinguish between through and inside imo

maybe lupa will be on my next form

instead of gender

[maiden light]

(This is a better example)

[floral crescent]

ye

it’s literally a window obviously it’s a lupa

[urban fractal]

real

this would be a lupa lupa

[maiden light]

Why do people call windows lupa again?

[floral crescent]

ye

[urban fractal]

anyway i think pakala is a more salient word here but it definitely can also be described as lupa additionally

[floral crescent]

bc light go through

[maiden light]

a, pona

[floral crescent]

if a window was spray painted black idk if people would call it a lupa

[maiden light]

ni li pakala tawa mi. I don't know why I personally would call this a lupa unless it was on a tank of water.

[maiden light]

ona li lupa len with curtains painted on.

[urban fractal]

a lupa is space where it isn't thing, and due to surrounding thing, you would expect it to be thing

[floral crescent]

i mean with paint you really can’t take it off

curtains you could

[maiden light]

taso antonym 😳

[urban fractal]

REAL

[floral crescent]

i don’t agree, or at least i think an equally important part is that things can travel through it. if i replace part of the stone wall with wood it’s not a lupa

unless like, there’s a ghost that can’t travel through stone but can travel through wood

[urban fractal]

that's because the wood is thing in most of the ways that stone is
but if there's something to which the difference matters, like the ghost, then it's lupa
also like, if there's a section of something that can't be painted, but the rest of it can, then that's a lupa

[maiden light]

I think I agree that the more important feature of lupa oftentimes is that it's travel-insa-able

[floral crescent]

^^

that quality almost always implies the one you’re talking about, not the other way around

[urban fractal]

so an unpaintable section of a wall isn't lupa?

[maiden light]

(By the way, I really like how you pointed out earlier the idea of toki pona not distinguishing through and inside, lipamanka o. ni li musi.)

[urban fractal]

i mean i guess it's like, that area of surface is untravelable to the paint
hmmmm

[floral crescent]

wdym

[urban fractal]

if there's a section of something that can't be painted, but the rest of it can, then that's a lupa
agree or disagree

[maiden light]

also like, if there's a section of something that can't be painted, but the rest of it can, then that's a lupa
I don't know that I would call that a lupa

[floral crescent]

what makes it unpaintable? the fact that if i tried to paint it, the paint would go through because there’s a hole in the wall?

like otherwise it can be painted

[urban fractal]

it's just not a surface that you should use the same paint on

maybe uh
if you tried, it wouldn't solidify, it would just spill off

[floral crescent]

that doesn’t really have to do with lupa

[urban fractal]

well there would be a lupa after trying to paint it

[floral crescent]

a very slight one

but yeah you’re making a lupa

[urban fractal]

if you shade in an area on paper and leave a section out is that lupa

[floral crescent]

if you zoom in really far and measure the hight of the graphite on top of the paper

[urban fractal]

lupa doesn't have to by physical imo

[floral crescent]

but also you can draw something else in it la yeah it’s a lupa

if you shaded in a circle it wouldn’t be a lupa

[urban fractal]

hm so it is travelable to future drawings

interesting

[floral crescent]

yeah

this has to do with toki pona not differentiating with “in” “on” “at” “through”

[maiden light]

Something like this (ignoring the shape) being a lupa is very interesting. I don't know what I think about it..

[floral crescent]

your explanation only makes sense within the context of “something can be lon this lupa”

[maiden light]

a ni li lon

[floral crescent]

things can be lupa based on if you’re taking about things going inside of them

[maiden light]

lon a

[floral crescent]

oh my god this is the worst migraine i’ve ever had

[maiden light]

I think I would be a lot more likely to call this idea a poki instead of a lupa.

[floral crescent]

WOW LUPA IS PART OF THE POKI TOMO SELO LEN THING

LUPA POKI TOMO SELO LEN

[maiden light]

Is the poki tomo selo len thing the poki-tomo, selo-len thing?

I guess then the lupa-poki-tomo, selo-len.

[urban fractal]

anti-poki is insa if selo is complete and lupa if selo is incomplete

[floral crescent]

it’s the poki-tomo-selo-len

[maiden light]

a, how is selo and len in there with the others?

[floral crescent]

all these words have to do with containment

[maiden light]

a pona

[urban fractal]

just realized there are now two threads stealing all of #sona-musi's convos 👀

[maiden light]

a a

[floral crescent]

i need to leave

my migraine is getting way worse

stop being interesting >:( but also i’m right tbh

[maiden light]

a a <3

o pona

[floral crescent]

i have more thoughts!!!

ping me tomorrow

this ties everything together

[tacit totem]

i haven’t finished submitting it

[sand marsh]

i did?

[tacit totem]

update: i paused in writing the form to go do stuff but i wasn’t signed in and it reset all the writing i had done 💀

my submission will probably happen tomorrow

[scarlet briar]

Reminder for @maiden light

Reminder from YAGPDB

ping the tulips of minecraft

[floral crescent]

migraine gone!

[echo lion]

Yippee!

[floral crescent]

my bad D:

[maiden light]

What other thoughts did you have to say last night?

[floral crescent]

ah yes

poki, tomo, lupa, selo, and len all center around the idea of containment in some way

poki is most centered around that idea

[maiden light]

a, lon

[floral crescent]

tomo is too but it’s also centered around the idea of living and something living being inside

selo is about protecting the thing inside or being a boundary between the inside and the outside - but it still contains something

lupa is about the potential to physically or metaphysically contain something, and it’s more physical

[maiden light]

Which of the words do you think is most abstract in what it can contain? tomo feels very specific, for example

[floral crescent]

and finally, len is about concealing the thing inside of it

[floral crescent]

the specificity goes out the window when we take into account that these words will get used because certain situations involving containers that are meant for holding certain things come up

like living things

or concealed things (though len is less about being a container)

[maiden light]

a ken

I was just thinking how I probably wouldn't tomo e sona while I might len e sona. At least I can't think of such an example

[floral crescent]

and i do think lupa is at its base more physical than the rest of these

[floral crescent]

well that’s about their specific usages, not really about semantics

[maiden light]

ni a li lon. pona

[thin granite]

(sorry to interrupt, i just wanted to say that I feel the same lol - also hi soko o)
(speaking of, once this convo is ended to some capacity, maybe it would be good to talk about in defense of sok- oh wait this is lipamanka BOOK not lipamanka ESSAY)
(apologies, just explaining my thought process)

[floral crescent]

lipamanka essay talk is still welcome here

[thin granite]

pona a
ni la, seme la sina olin(?) e nimi 'soko'?

[floral crescent]

it’s super good

i like mushrooms

[thin granite]

(my dad would disapprove /lh - go on, tho)

[floral crescent]

i’ve never conceptualized them as a type of kasi

[thin granite]

they're more like uh
kili aren't they
or maybe nena???

not identical just 'like'

[floral crescent]

yeah they could be those things

tbh i’m going to get rid of that image soon

replace it with a list

[thin granite]

(food/moku ||my dad hates mushrooms - and tomatos too||)

[floral crescent]

cringe

those are both so good

[hushed gorge]

i hate mushrooms so much they creep me out so bad

[leaden cradle]

woah why did it take us so long to put lupa into poki tomo selo len

weve had the lupa vs poki talk and the poki vs tomo talk and the tomo vs selo talk and the selo vs len talk

wheres the len vs lupa talk

[thin granite]

lupu? /lh

[floral crescent]

literally this ^^^

[floral crescent]

yeah lupa -> lupu >:)

(just kidding)

[thin granite]

tru

also random thought
is there a word/term for a "deeper" discussion of toki pona? (pls say if need clarifying)
perhaps tokiponology (like toaqology) would be an option

[floral crescent]

tbh i feel like they all need to be contrasted directly together

[leaden cradle]

if youre under a physical len like a blanket, is the space youre occupying a lupa? yes

[floral crescent]

hmmmmmmm i feel like coming up with a new term goes against toki pona

just say deep toki pona discussion

[leaden cradle]

yea i agree

[floral crescent]

maybe .

[thin granite]

(in english, but yes)

[floral crescent]

yes

in english :D

[thin granite]

i love the vibe of :D tbh
it's so cute

i should use it more

mi o :D

[leaden cradle]

im in my bed under my covers rn and i feel like the bed and the blankets are totally forming a lupa for my lower body
but if i was all the way under the covers that would be less of a lupa

conclusion: a lupa needs an opening

[thin granite]

is thinking

[floral crescent]

a lupa is the opening

as well as that beyond the opening

but the only important part for it to be a lupa is an opening that things can pass through

[leaden cradle]

hmmm

[thin granite]

agreed (my opinion doesn't matter, i'm not an 'expert')

[leaden cradle]

pass through, to me, implies going in and coming out the other side

lots of lupa arent like that

[thin granite]

so, for instance, a window that contained a two-way mirror wouldn't be lupa? if i'm understanding right

hold on

[floral crescent]

your opinion does matter

[thin granite]

oh it does? how come?

[floral crescent]

everyone’s opinion matters

[thin granite]

but not everyone's opinion is correct

[floral crescent]

otherwise i would be doing cringescriptivism (when you cherry pick who’s language you describe)

[leaden cradle]

we are doing descriptivism here and you are someone who interacts with the language and thus we must describe your nasin too

[thin granite]

in which case lemme think abt what the Big 5™️ mean to me

imma just list them again for my own reference
poki selo tomo len lupa

oops

(just to clarify are you reacting pona bcs of my thinking, because of my use of the term 'big 5', or both?)

so uh imma think of some container-ish words in english, and try to think what word i'd use in tp (from the big 5)

[floral crescent]

bc ur so pona and also both of the above <3

[thin granite]

happy noises

so the first term i'm thinking abt is 'keyboard'
bcs maybe in some contexts it could be thought of as a "container of keys"? ig?
but which of the big 5 to use, if any...

although perhaps it's more of a 'kulupu' of keys rather than a '[big 5]' of keys
let's see so uh
what is a key? hmm
ig it's like a button - whether physical or not
but what is a button?
ilo luka???

leko luka??????

[leaden cradle]

nena

mi la keyboard = supa nena

[floral crescent]

but if the keyboard contains the keys

[thin granite]

oh my gosh that makes so much sense thank you
so a keyboard is a [???] pi nena ilo? ig? (ilo meaning vaguely 'technological' or otherwise 'tool')
but yes good question soko o
does a keyboard contain keys, or have keys on it's surface?
hmm is thinking

[leaden cradle]

i think it IS the keys tbh

[thin granite]

as in it's defined as 'the thing that is defined as containing keys'?

[leaden cradle]

no i think a keyboard is a board made of keys and not a board with keys on it

[thin granite]

my head agrees

[floral crescent]

hm stuff always goes on a supa

is it related to this idea of containment

[leaden cradle]

aaaaaaaaaa

[thin granite]

tfw you be philosophizing abt keyboards

[leaden cradle]

hmm stuff always goes on a supa. does that mean stuff goes on it sometimes or does a table cease to be a supa if i take everything off it

[floral crescent]

it’s meant for stuff being on it

i wouldn’t call the top of a car a supa outside of the context of me using it as one

[leaden cradle]

oh yea i see

looking around my room im using some non-supas as supas

[thin granite]

random thought a bed is a supa lape
i think

[floral crescent]

adhd is supa disorder

[leaden cradle]

yep!

[floral crescent]

ye that’s super common

[thin granite]

cool uh thinks abt supa

[thin granite]

i have determined that i agree

[floral crescent]

good

i’m always right

[leaden cradle]

^this sounds orwellian but youll find its an accurate statemant

[floral crescent]

LMAO

[thin granite]

i'm on a server for fans of cracking the cryptic, a puzzle youtube channel ( check 'em out ig ;) )
and there's an emoji called :beautifullogic: and i feel like it would be very appropriate here as a reaction (given that it's often used in a non-puzzling context, or jokingly)
anyway back to supa

[floral crescent]

take a screenshot of it

i wanna see

[leaden cradle]

is a christmas tree a supa bc u put ornaments on it

[thin granite]

it just looks identical to a snowflake p much
ya still wanna see?

[leaden cradle]

i want to say no if youre hanging the ornaments but if you rest them on top of the branches then i think theyd be on a supa

[floral crescent]

no because “on” is just a word used in english etc

[floral crescent]

ye

[thin granite]

i've actually been meaning to ask on uh
the conlang critic discord abt what it's like to have adhd
i had a friend from primary school who had it but i never rly understood it fully tbh
(oops gotta go now screentime + school [tomorrow] exist)
i shall think about the big 5
but i shall take a screenshot of :beautifullogic: for soko first

[leaden cradle]

so what is the tree to the ornaments hanging on it

or is it just kasi

i think its just kasi

[floral crescent]

kasi

yeah