Console players are worried

[whole raft]

What is the virtual cursor direction your taking based on.
Me, my group and majority of console players we talk to are dreading the idea of a virtual cursor only.
They are awful in other games compared to curser/menu snapping hybrids and I'm struggling to understand the thought process.
Myself and many others would much rather the UI left alone for the foreseeable future.
Past the needed patches of course and popular suggestions (eg being able to toggle logic through menus atm, and restoring a and b button functionality to what the previous UI had).

[fallow hinge]

Its more or less restoring it to how it was before with when it snaps and when it doesn't. It wont snap when selecting blocks or painting, but it will for sliders and menus where snapping is easier like the save menu.

[gloomy smelt]

We are investigating this as a consequence of the controller players feedback. We also did a poll a while ago asking players if they like the idea of having a virtual cursor. 13% of the players said that they did not want the navigation to change and 46% said do want the virtual cursor (41% were happy with either). So this work we are doing is to listen to the community and hopefully work with you in improving the general navigation experience. ❤️

We really appreciate you expressing your concerns. Please try the build and tell us after your thoughts on it. Otherwise we will be talking about fears of what it could and could not be. While it will be easier for us to talk about the concrete things you don't like on it, and why or why not you prefer the live navigation over this one 🙏

[gloomy smelt]

Exaclty. With a small correction that on sliders the current plan is to not have it snap, but when hovering you'll be able to use dpad to move the slider. This can be changed if the players are not happy with it tho, lets go into it whenever we have it ready but for now here is an example of it in another game:

[whole raft]

I personally misunderstood what virtual cursor meant in the pole and that's on me, but surely it's appreciated that the pole and now the testing of this new UI is HEAVILY biased towards PC players who will be MUCH more use to such UI setups than actual console players and therefore much more agreeable to it.
I just don't think you should make such a drastic change for a part of the community that is essentially having it's voice taken from a different part of the community with different familiarities.
Do we know what percentage of people who voted in that pole were exclusive console users?

[fallow hinge]

I would imagine the vast majority were from controller players. Why would KbM users vote for a controller poll?

[finite mango]

Me personally, and im sure alot of other console players will agree, I prefer using the dpad over the left stick. Especially when navigating menus and such.

[finite mango]

Please do not make it snap unless you like press 'A' while hovering over the slider. Games with snappy cursors are worse than games with free moving cursors. ( i have realized this is probably like 90% preference)

[gloomy smelt]

Totally understand that KbM users could have voted, although, like @fallow hinge said, there is no reason why. Still the reason that we made that poll in the first place was because of so many controller players reaction to when the paint shop and configurator navigation was change to what it is now.

[icy thorn]

In my experience, it isn't the D-pad navigation that people are complaining about, but rather the glitches that come with it. When it first came out, I remember basically everyone I spoke to agreed that the D-pad navigation was a good thing, whether or not they thought the UI changes were good.

To add to what parable is saying, console players are just unable to use keyboard and mouse. It just doesn't work last I checked. So if the controller UI feels bad enough, they can't just switch to k&m like PC users can until the UI for controller gets better.

I don't know if the public test branch has the new controller UI yet, but if it does, I will be able to give my feedback later.

[whole raft]

I strongly hope another pole gets made soon once players have seen a little more of what exactly proposing.
Like at least ask if people would rather you spend development time and money on it or if people would rather just have new content.

[gloomy smelt]

yes it does, please let us know what you think after trying it out 😊

[fallow hinge]

My two cents, I vastly prefer the new cursor system.

When 2.2 dropped with the snapping everywhere I just started putting down the controller to use a keyboard, even today when im building on live branch. With the new floating cursor that issue just doesn't exist anymore and I can do the stuff so much faster. All the controller users I talk to have been looking forward to the new cursor.

[finite mango]

I just got a flashback to a couple days ago, and it made me remember a problem with the new UI; The hotkeys have a problem, although it only really affects the paint shop,l. When you hold 'RB' and press 'A' to access the paint shop, it throws you straight into the decal menu, which, is pretty annoying, especially since it happens every single time. I hope this is fixed (i assume the hotkeys are gone in the public test thingy)

[gloomy smelt]

That is totally fair! The point of making this public is us doing that. We never did this before (giving EVERYONE access to a branch so all players test something), we are hopeful that this will help us understand if this is the right direction and what to concentrate our resources in. 🙏

Something to keep in mind is that this is not only a navigation change, but also rebuilding the UI to have better performance and to make it easier to work in new features. Right now we design and maintain 2 navigations. This new navigation would impact the time spent on introducing quality of life features in the future and like you said, spend that extra resources in new content. This is not THE origin of this experiment, but it is part of the consideration.

[gloomy smelt]

Thank you! Will be taking a look at it!

[vivid prawn]

Is there a reason why the game can't include both options as a custom setting? If one option is chosen then inevitably some people will be unhappy.

[short narwhal]

Development effort. The game currently has 2 builders essentially, that would add a 3rd

[gloomy smelt]

Mainly it will take way more resources to not only finish and polish both but also keeping and designing features for both. A very simple way I can put it is that Trailmakers is old 😅 the game currently has 2 builders (navigation) that are made with "sticks and glue" from a mix of the unity UI system being super annoying and having many many people working and patching things over the years. And every time we add a feature (like the blueprints folders, search bar, the crafting system for pioneers etc) we have to deal with a really rough system, designing it and developing it for 2 builders, piling up performance issues and bugs since its so hard and frustrating to work with it. For a long time we had virtual cursor in the paint shop and the configuration. When we changed it a lot of controller players were upset. So now we find ourselves thinking "maybe virtual cursor could be the solution. We will give it back to the console players in the paint shop and configurator and extend it to the rest of the UI. It will give us an opportunity to fix the "sticks and glue" and build a universal navigation that players will be happy with, will have a better performance and be easier to work with."

Tldr: Having 2 options is not IMPOSSIBLE, but it will take a big chunk of resources to set up and maintain.

Trying to be as honest as possible here, hope I was able to give some context 🙏

[gloomy smelt]

Hey Zacy, I wasn't able to replicate the issue (publictest branch). Currently if you leave the paint shop when in the decals tab, when you come back it will be in the decals tab, so the game remembers in that session which tab you were in last time. could that be why when you enter paint shop it takes you to decals? because you were in the decals when you left it? Let me know if thats the case 😊

[vivid prawn]

Ah ok, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the clarification!

[brave comet]

But, you're a pc player, and those controller players are also mostly PC players, console and how console feels is what defines the difference between console and PC. I've spoken to tons of other Xbox players and heard all the same negative reactions of the virtual cursor, and their reaction only gets worse when told that flashbulb is having PC players (with controller) give feedback on the virtual cursor. Another poll does seem due, but, maybe try to get the reaction from specifically console players, as that's who it'll be affecting the most.

[short narwhal]

Controller is controller. There is no logical reason to think it is different between console and pc

[brave comet]

But if you want a cursor on PC, use kbm, y'all can just switch when the virtual cursor inevitably fucks up or glitches. Console can't. And has nobody learned from the previous UI updates?

[short narwhal]

That doesn't mean feedback from when it works well or when it doesn't is different. If people playing with controller say it's better, there is no logical reason to consider where they are playing.

[brave comet]

But are all of them used to current controller usage?

Or are you getting feedback from people who last used a controller months or more ago? People who're only picking up a controller specifically for the test-branch?

[short narwhal]

They are getting feedback from those who prefer playing with controller. Someone that prefers playing with kbm has no reason to be here giving feedback

[short narwhal]

^ and #dev-diary message

[brave comet]

Guess we'll see how it goes

[whole raft]

Exposure, even if controller play is their preference they will still be exposed to virtual cursors waaaaay more than an actual console player, and so will find it more agreeable.
Ignoring that there isn't at least some bias here is extremely ignorant.

[short narwhal]

console players are also exposed to cursors when doing basically anything on a pc outside of games (and even in some other places like smart TVs). The difference is very small, nowhere close to being enough to disregard the results and feedback of pc players.

[whole raft]

Ah yes let me go and get my controller out to operate my pc and smart TV.
What are you on about?!?

And you miss the point, it's less disregarding the input of pc players "though I am to a small extent" and more the problem being we DONT have the input from actual dedicated console players in the way that we should.

[short narwhal]

the point is that basically everyone knows how a cursor works and has used it, so there is very little difference between a controller pc player and a controller console player

[short narwhal]

the point is that the feedback of controller pc players should generalize to consoles as well, because the input method and behavior is the same.

[whole raft]

You are just wrong here and are entertaining a completely ungrounded viewpoint here for the sake or nothing more than argument.

[whole raft]

This isn't the primary point I'm disagreeing with here.

[earnest cloak]

I do not believe that controllers or keyboard are similar at all. Although they do solve the same end goal, controllers operate fundamentally differently from keyboard in mouse, in how they allow the user to interact with a system.

[short narwhal]

nobody is comparing kbm and controller here. All feedback is from controller users (kbm users have no reason to provide feedback about controller input). The argument is if there is a difference between feedback from pc and console, which there is no logical reason to believe

[earnest cloak]

Because the input method and behaviour is the same

[short narwhal]

input method there refers to controller, as stated in the previous sentence to that

[earnest cloak]

Damn I misread. Please continue with the previous conversation

So from what I've gathered from context, Parable is saying that pc players USING controllers should be polled separately to pure console users to eliminate potential bias and Alvaro believes that is not necessary due to the identical control schemes?

[short narwhal]

yes

(also considering console players are much harder to poll due to betas on consoles being much harder to set up)

[whole raft]

My aggravation is twofold. I'm against virtual cursor and I'm frustrated that the actual console players can't test it and die to a large portion not engaging with discord won't know about it

[brave comet]

Yeah, I mean I've even run into people in this servers VC that didn't know about it coming to xbox

Can give names

[earnest cloak]

So what you are worried about is because the difficulty of polling console players, that they havent been heard? / opinion isnt being regarded

[brave comet]

It's a bias of information

Like massive bias

You have PC players who, even if they do use controller most of the time, are still on PC and can just switch, giving feedback on something that is so much more of a drastic change to the console side of things

[short narwhal]

if they aren't even reading the #announcements channel, there is not much that could be done to get their feedback

[earnest cloak]

My best suggestion at this time is to make a poll specifically for console users.

[short narwhal]

being able to switch is irrelevant. If they feel the need to switch, that's still feedback they can give to improve controller experience

[earnest cloak]

If Alvaro is correct we should see no difference and if parable is correct then we can adapt to what the main users of controller think

I think we should all be able to agree that the people who are forced to use controller should have a greater say in the matter than those with a choice?

[brave comet]

That's the point I'm trying to get across

[earnest cloak]

Alvaro?

[short narwhal]

the problem is that since the console userbase is much smaller here, the poll would have a significantly bigger statistical sampling bias from individual players, so you should expect some deviation due to that which makes the comparisons hard

[earnest cloak]

But is the statement incorrect?

[brave comet]

Controller is controller, whatever. But I'm on an Xbox, my only input is controller, and in practically all the games I've played that have a virtual cursor, it feels like ass.

[earnest cloak]

Really hoping for an explicit answer. The lack of sample size due to the size of the console community is a variable that can and probably should be discussed separately

[short narwhal]

it could be done, but you won't get anything useful out of it, specially since it's much harder to judge something from text/screenshots/videos than from actualy using it

[earnest cloak]

That wasnt an answer.
The answer I'm looking for is "Console players that are forced to use controller should have a greater say in controller related topics' or "Pc and console users that use controller should have equal say"

Otherwise we are going to go in circles all night

and this is the actual crux of the argument

[brave comet]

It's specifically due to the small console community on discord, the representation isn't quite the same, Xbox recently made up like 4/5 of the peak player base, with PlayStation at 2/5 there are more console players lately than PC, so idk how it's so hard for flashbulb or literally anyone to accept input from console players.

[short narwhal]

as for the sample size: the original poll had 700 votes counting all platforms. According to the platform roles, 59.7% of users here are on steam (although that's not exactly controller vs kbm, there are also players on xbox who play with kbm on microsoft store pc). Thus, you would expect console only sample size to be ~350 at best

[short narwhal]

pc and console should have equal say, both use the same system and there is no reason to believe what's good for one is bad for the other

[earnest cloak]

finally

Thank you.

we finally have our opinions exposed

[short narwhal]

they accept input from everyone.

[brave comet]

Hopefully that's for the topic of input method only, otherwise, why doesn't console have mods?

[earnest cloak]

Lets focus on the outstanding argument

[brave comet]

Just saying, the statement of "they're basically the same, what's good for one isn't bad for the other" isn't even remotely true

[earnest cloak]

Alvaro. Do you play on console or pc

I assume PC from the fact you have a steam role.

So lemme try think up a metaphor

[short narwhal]

it is. Nothing else is being discussed here (specifically build mode UI with controller)

[whole raft]

Here you have a bunch of console players telling you otherwise. Is this completely lost on you or what?

[earnest cloak]

To be honest, I feel that if you yourself are not a console player, you don't really have an argument against those who are.

Same way they wouldnt have an argument against mouse and keyboard

[short narwhal]

yes, 2 players. The poll had 700 votes, and there are 3-4 other posts on this same forum saying it is better

[earnest cloak]

from how many console users though?

[brave comet]

Hopefully we can see more console players come here to also give input, I will be asking other Xbox players to take some looks at the available videos and screenshots, as well as just the idea, as many have played games with virtual cursors before, and many have been disappointed.

[short narwhal]

and that's why i have never claimed either system is better. The only thing i have claimed is that the feedback of controller users shouldn't depend on their platform

[earnest cloak]

define what systems you are refering to

[whole raft]

Then for the love of god you can at least appreciate that the Devs devoting the time and effort they are to changing this for neither better or worse is not a desirable outcome, and things for now should better be left alone.

[short narwhal]

current controller UI vs the new virtual cursor based one

[brave comet]

I think all player movement controls and default vehicle handling controls should be switched from wasd to yghj because the one time I picked up a keyboard it looked more natural

[earnest cloak]

But this is not what we are talking about. This conversation is about how these matters should be decided among controller users on differing platforms.

[whole raft]

Again, this opinion is so wrong it's unreal.
But you're too well known for just never taking into account what's being said to you so this will just go in circles forever.

[short narwhal]

they are trying to change this for the better, as a result of complaints from controller users. Leaving it alone isn't a better outcome if it can be improved

[earnest cloak]

Improvement is fine but it has to take into account the thoughts of those that its most effects

[brave comet]

Is it maybe... Controller users on PC? Did they know they can disconnect the controller to have a cursor?

[whole raft]

This is like Brexit all over again where a largely destructive outcome was the result of a 55-45 split.

[earnest cloak]

You wouldn't see car drivers making laws for motorcyclists

[short narwhal]

yes, and that's why this forum was made, to get feedback from controller players

[whole raft]

And most of the people who actually cared didn't vote or didn't understand what they were voting for.

[whole raft]

Providing they're on discord which a massive portion of them aren't.

[short narwhal]

the devs have data from all platforms. They can actually see what people are playing with

[earnest cloak]

But "most effects" isnt about controllers. Its about what parties are actually forced to use the system.

[short narwhal]

except in this case only 13% is against

[earnest cloak]

If they made shit changes for controllers a PC player could swap to keyboard and think nothing of it whereas the controller players on console are stuck with it

[short narwhal]

unfortunately that's an issue regardless of where you do the poll

[earnest cloak]

The problem is that the poll (imo) was not equally accessable for both parties

sure those on PC would have been notified, but was there a notification for console?

[short narwhal]

if they did that, the players who used controller on pc would still complain

[earnest cloak]

They could complain yes, but it doesnt affect them as much console players, at the end of the day

[brave comet]

I'm just curious why the PC players care so much about having a cursor while using a controller.

[earnest cloak]

The fact of the matter is that those who it most affects should be the party with the greatest influence

[short narwhal]

there was a video showing the changes. If they didn't understand that, there is not much more that could have been done without giving them access to the build, which again, is very hard on consoles

[earnest cloak]

and polls that do not have equal accessibility and publicity for both parties should not be counted towards this

[short narwhal]

there was no ping for any platform for what's worth. The sampling comes exclusively from who is somewhat active here and reads the #announcements channel somewhat regularly

[brave comet]

I also keep seeing this "very hard on consoles" I'll have to double check but as an Xbox player, I know of the Xbox insider program, which is literally there for developers to launch test builds of their games

[earnest cloak]

Which would be PC players correct?

[short narwhal]

yes, but those complains would be the same as the ones from console players, and if the devs take those complains to improve the system you would expect the system for console users to improve as well

[earnest cloak]

So there isnt an equal say for both parties?

[short narwhal]

it would be the platform distribution among active users here

everyone has 1 vote, so yes, there is an equal say for all controller players

[earnest cloak]

Ight im tired gn peoples

[brave comet]

Yeah, just checked, pretty sure "Belly Bumpers" is a smaller game than trailmakers... Should be possible for a test build to be opened with like a teeny tiny bit of effort, especially since there's already stable ground for trailmakers since it's on gamepass, idk though but yeah, rn I see titles like "Once human" "Black Spades" "Reforj" "Grounded 2 Public Test" (key word is public test) on the Xbox insider hub

[short narwhal]

you are ignoring all the work required to setup a separate store page, app metadata, certifications, etc, and the fact that if you publish a second tests there will be little indication of it being a beta beyond at best the store title

[brave comet]

No separate store page

[short narwhal]

according to the devs, who have actually attempted it: "We would love to let console players test but launching test branches on consoles is very difficult. We feel like a Steam test branch for controller users is the second best option."

[brave comet]

From all the times I've used it, such as running test builds of pal world or grounded 2, it's literally just an enroll button on the insider hub app, and then the game gets an update to that build, and then you can play that build

Ooh and then, guess what, when you don't wanna play that build anymore, you open the insider program app, click to un-enroll, and then the game goes back to the previous version.

[short narwhal]

it might be "just an enroll button on the insider hub app" for you. It is not just a button to set it up for the devs. Again, they have actually tried it a couple times in the past and the result has always been the same.

[fallow hinge]

The only time I have ever wanted to swap input method was with the live snapping cursor. I hate it, and so do the console/controller players I talk to. With the new virtual cursor I never have the urge to swap to a mouse when building.

[whole raft]

The snapping is a bit clunky rn I don't disagree. But for some Menüs it's absolutely needed.

Why tf did autocorrect do that to menu's

[fallow hinge]

I agree and so do the devs. Its been confirmed by Gui that snapping will be in some menus just like the OG navigation. The one we have access to right now is very much a WIP.

[whole raft]

Do you have a controller and access to the new cursor test?

[fallow hinge]

I play exclusively on controller.

[whole raft]

If so I may ask a favour, Ide like to double check some things with it if I could watch you stream it at some point.
I've seen some but after much discussion I have new questions

[fallow hinge]

Are you available right now?

[whole raft]

No. I'll be on properly in a couple hoursm

[fallow hinge]

Aight, let me know and I can hop in a call

[whole raft]

Big thank in advance

[rocky kayak]

We are looking at the Xbox Insider program, it would suit our needs perfectly but it's not something we can "just set up". It requires back and forth between us and our Microsoft account reps, but we are talking - sometimes (many times when platform holders are involved) there is just red tape in the way.

[gloomy smelt]

#announcements message

If you are a console player that would like to be part of testing the navigation, consider applying to the console player test we are making. All the info needed in the link above! 😊

[whole raft]

Super glad you guys did this. I've posted it around the groups I run so it should reach around 100-200 xbox players as word spreads.
Sadly I can't help as I don't own a PC.
Seriously, thank you.

[gloomy smelt]

Highly appreciate it! thank you 🙌

[dusty hinge]

The cursor looks the same as before what changed?

[gloomy smelt]

are you playing in the "publictest" branch with a controller?

[dusty hinge]

No

Im saying it looks the same

[gloomy smelt]

The changes are only on "publictest", they are not live yet, it will take a while before it being officially release 😊

[brave comet]

Holy peak, now that's a good change! Dpad still being an option is just fine with me

[whole raft]

Just want to say the update you just gave has removed the majority of the doubt in my groups about the changes you are making.
I think the only ones left are the ones that haven't seen/tested it themselves I think.

Happy news to have read and thanks from the lot of us.

[brave comet]

Agreed, the option to still use the dpad especially in the selector, along with the sliders change is definitely the right path, a good compromise between those asking for separate options

[gloomy smelt]

Happy to hear 🥰 please give it a try if you can, this way we can get more feedback and have it as polished as possible 😊

[brave comet]

Both on console sadly