politics

[elder portal]

but while we're fighting that battle, we have the opportunity to try to remove the whole thing

so, fantastic!

[mystic ermine]

The fundimental issue of politics imho is that you're not voting for the people, you're voting for yourself

[elder portal]

if we don't win removal of the EC, at least it'll be better for the fight

[mystic ermine]

Nor is there any real way for your average joe working 9-5 to really bring up the issues that concern him all too much

[elder portal]

that's kinda the fundamental issue @autumn lotus

states vote for president

not people

¯_(ツ)_/¯

to each their own, I suppose

honestly, I just didn't expect the sentence "everyone, go vote!" to be so polarizing

political opinions startle me, sometimes

I have some pretty extreme views sometimes (abolishing the EC, changing the voting system, etc) but I like to think I'm not an idiot and want those at the cost of everything else

everyone's got different views on how things should be run, but I'd like to think that everyone wants what they think is best

and nothing comes from bigotry, malice, or hate

that's a pretty glass-half-empty view

I'm sorry for you

it's unfortunate that you hold that opinion, really

there's realism to thinking that some will serve their own agenda, but to attribute that to most makes that a very pessimistic viewpoint

woo boy, Trump's money issues are..

yeah..

no bueno.

that's like, the one thing people wanted him for originally

his "business sense", his money

I'm curious as to why you think Trump cares?

or what he cares about?

he definitely cares about his legacy- whether or not he leaves a permanent mark, good or bad

it's definitely not good so far

I'd argue that and say he gains recognition

he seems to always want more

everyone sort-of knew him before- at leats in a couple countries

now everyone knows him

and not usually in a good sense

I'm not convinced that he cares for much aside from leaving a legacy

which, if that's your only goal, leaving a legacy of pain and suffering works

usually, yeah

I don't see much good from anything, though

a half-built wall that's already falling apart, which was his entire campaign in 2016..

his "business sense" which has destroyed treaties and relationships we used to have

I'm not sure that's a good position to have

it seems that he's in the mindset of "if it's not helping us, it's fucking us" which isn't the case in a lot of situations

negotiations and treaties are far more nuanced than "give money, get reward"

yeah

great example of how he screwed us there

[mystic ermine]

Two two biggest reasons I saw from trump was that he wasn't a politician, and there being a huge massive "fuck you" aspect

[elder portal]

also that, yeah

[mystic ermine]

In what way did trump jumping out of the climate accord cause harm?

[elder portal]

uh.. Who told you China wasn't following the Paris accord?

because lol

[mystic ermine]

They're following it it

[elder portal]

yeah

definitely

[mystic ermine]

It's just, they don't gotta really do shit for a long time

[elder portal]

don''t forget he wants to pull out of the WHO for the same reason

[mystic ermine]

We're seemingly on the hopes that in like 10 years or whatever, all their pollution will just disappear?

[elder portal]

which is insane

[mystic ermine]

The WHO knew about covid in like, November/December?

[elder portal]

they also single-handedly entirely eradicated smallpox

and the WHO isn't a mouthpiece for China

yikes, alright, yeah, the propaganda pill is potent

[mystic ermine]

Like, 40 years ago?

[elder portal]

so, a little history on WHO

[mystic ermine]

I mean, organisations change

If you wanna go on past merits, get rid of planned parenthood

[elder portal]

you bet

also, not enitrely relevant

[mystic ermine]

The moment an organisation designed to protect X, starts hiding information from X, they no longer serve their purpose

[elder portal]

anyway, history on WHO. It was created by the UN to try to respond to global health issues

this involved really every country

and still involves every country

[mystic ermine]

And we're in the midst of our largest pandemic in god knows how long

[elder portal]

the U.S. is the only country who can even back out of the WHO

also all of our donations to it are voluntary, only a small portion are required

[mystic ermine]

And, they had the warning signs, which they squashed

[elder portal]

same with China

there's a difference between keeping relations and pandering

something as nuanced as not pissing off entire nations seems to escape the president

[mystic ermine]

You gotta be willing to put your foot down in some cases

It's sorta like bexit

[elder portal]

wait, you think Brexit was a good thing?

[mystic ermine]

The country is fucking moronic to actually go through with this especially after everything that's happened since

[elder portal]

oh, thank fuck. lol

[mystic ermine]

But, at the same point, where do you stop these orgs? If it was up to the EU, we'd all be in the eurozone

[elder portal]

you HAVE to "keep relations" when you're an org that affects and goes into the entire world

[mystic ermine]

We'd all be paying to save countries like greace which fucked themselves

[elder portal]

the whole point of the WHO is that they're unthreatening

they're here to help

despite what you may think, you actually have to not be on people's shit list if you expect to be able to help them

that means building relations

and maintaining them

and walking a thin political line sometimes

they can't just agree with the U.S. on everything

they should be treated as such, yes

but politics is politics

and people will treat the WHO differently if they, for example, agree with China on something

because politics

I just pulled that analogy out of my ass

no idea where it could have come from

hindsight is 20/20, isn't it?

"now that I look back, yeah, they were completely wrong."

"damn them for not knowing everything at the exact time of impact!"

they were called out by some who did predict correctly

but at the time, it was all predictions

nobody knew anything

so someone saying it was X fault or Y happened had no idea of knowing until months later

some were correct, others were not

[mystic ermine]

What is the point of throwing cash into an organisation designed to protect the world, if they're going o refuse to protect the world in the fear of upsetting some country?

[elder portal]

nobody refused anything. They're a bit cash-strapped as-is and nobody knew anything at all at that time

they were doing the best with the information at hand, like all of us

they got it wrong, as did pretty much everybody

[mystic ermine]

I remember reading that they saw the signs and how fast this can spread before hand

[elder portal]

well, apparently a lot of people predictied none of this

the president included

[mystic ermine]

There was a lot of stuff going on on the basis of china and the who which fucked this up

[elder portal]

and all of his experts

[mystic ermine]

part of the massive issue is the % of asymptomatic cases

[elder portal]

we move on and learn, we don't drop people at the first sign of trouble because we think we can do better

[mystic ermine]

Like, we have uni dorms over here where huge swaths are infected

[elder portal]

how TF are we going to do better than the WHO anyway?

do we think other countries are going to be super welcoming to the U.S. WHO?

[mystic ermine]

The thing is that it's not just one incident

[elder portal]

historically speaking, letting the U.S. in your country ends in sadness

so what's the solution, then?

we drop the WHO, they lose a ton of funding, and then what?

[mystic ermine]

I honestly don't know

[elder portal]

then why

[mystic ermine]

But we need to figure out what happened

Because to my understanding, there was a fair chunk of supression in play

[elder portal]

I just said earlier "I don't entirely know what'll happen if we remove the electoral college" and you challenged that on the basis that we should find out

and yet you want to go from the WHO? With no idea?

we should find out

[mystic ermine]

You're conflating to all shit

I never said that we should get rid of the WHO

[elder portal]

but that we should pull out from it, right?

the U.S. is the largest donor to it, and they're already cash-strapped

they've worked miracles with what little they're given

[mystic ermine]

I said why people tend to err towards giving cash towards an org with just yet another controvicy on its belt

[elder portal]

we should, at the very least, find out what'll happen if we do

but I don't think we should, at all

and leaving Trump as president means we likely will

no bueno

[mystic ermine]

I mean, I don't really see the alternative to trump

[elder portal]

me either, thank christ

one Trump is enough

more than enough

[mystic ermine]

Basically, the only valid reason I really see for biden is the green new deal stuff, which is iffy, "HE'S NOT TRUMP"

[elder portal]

enough damage has been done

[mystic ermine]

Not to mention, it's sketchy as all fuck the way they're playing it

[elder portal]

we need to focus on repairing what we've lost

[mystic ermine]

Good news

If biden wins, they're gonna be reconcillation training being pushed for

Woooo

[elder portal]

border walls and defunding the WHO are not the way to go

that leaves us vulnerable

also makes us look like damned cowards, afraid of our own neighbors

but not the neighbors to the north

can't have them dirty Mexicans in our country

[mystic ermine]

You're conflating again.

[elder portal]

that part's frustrating

what am I conflating?

I'm glossing over, but not conflating

[mystic ermine]

I mean, you're acting like people who want a wall think that mexicans are dirty?

[elder portal]

there's just so many problems from the Paris accord to the WHO to the border wall to "belief" in science..

it's hard to pick one

[mystic ermine]

I mean, what benefits does the paris accord give?

[elder portal]

also the fact that seats were specifically withheld from Democratic presidents until a Republican president could come by to elect them

"Obama saved me all these seats!"

no, he didn't, he was repeatedly blocked

ugh

so many problems

it's always been a problem

Trump just makes it sound like everything's falling in line for him when in reality it's all falling apart

he's very good at salesmanship

I used to be an excellent salesman, I see the techniques

[opaque prairie]

You can’t argue that because the senate is not population representative

[elder portal]

I also concede that Trump, so far, seems to have kept his word that his paychecks go to charities. I never looked at which charities, though

but hey, I'll take it

seems to be something good that he's done

thank fuck

[opaque prairie]

I’m not sure I would trust anyone with the last name trump and charities

[elder portal]

yeah

that bothers me, too

but I'm going to just assume it's all fine

because I need this

[mystic ermine]

The issue is that the 4/2 arragement means that you can essentially have a "good" first half a term, and then be neutered to all shit

[elder portal]

oh, plus the whole "reclaiming a term" thing

[mystic ermine]

I mean, she was screaming about needing a pay rise

[elder portal]

which "was just a joke, guys! Haha, right? Unless.. ?"

[mystic ermine]

from heir like, 100+k job

[elder portal]

huh?

[mystic ermine]

I mean, last I heard, the entire nature of the collusion BS came from hillaries campaign directly?

[elder portal]

that's cat

[mystic ermine]

It is an issue

It basically means that you have 2 years where a president who's job is to take steps is unable to do anything

[elder portal]

and the whole "Russians helped Trump" thing that was confirmed but never had anything done with it

plus impeachment..

the list goes on

there's just so much shit that piles up

[mystic ermine]

did trump do it?

[elder portal]

you can hand-wave it all away with various excuses

but occam's razor

[opaque prairie]

who cares if russians helped trump
uhhh what

[mystic ermine]

did trump know what his party where doing?

[elder portal]

uhh

that's kinda a massive problem

also entirely illegal

[opaque prairie]

so foreign political entities should be allowed to influence the election

[elder portal]

illegal even in the constitution

[mystic ermine]

See, that's where I'm conflicted

[elder portal]

you love the constitution, you get to stick with it. No cherry-picking what you like out of it, here

[opaque prairie]

mind you we are ignoring he fact that its documented that russian hackers have gained access to various voting systems in states

[mystic ermine]

Other countries should not be interferring in others elections, outside of discussions, etc

But, really

[elder portal]

"things people should know"
"right on election day"

[mystic ermine]

I think it's toxic af that "No, the people voting for me don't deserve to know my stance on X", just goes to show how immoral and corrupt the system is

[elder portal]

"before anyone has had the chance to figure out what and why"

"no need to think, just react"

"vote with your heart, not your head"

[opaque prairie]

it doesnt matter

[mystic ermine]

fuck russia for what they did

But, I've not really seen anything that proves that trump specifically colluded with russia?

[elder portal]

basically my issue is with all of these things piling up on eachother. Any one thing would make a lot of people very angry at a single president. But all of these happening to the same president?

maybe, just maybe, we have a bad president

[opaque prairie]

trump himself may not have.. but there have def been some suspicious moments between him and putin, along with various republicans

[elder portal]

it's all way too much

[mystic ermine]

Fuck the party

Both parties should be nuked out of orbit bar a few on each side

[elder portal]

if everything keeps falling down around you, maybe it's you that's the problem, not everyone else

but he does like his finger-pointing

and pretending everything's fine

if you haven't noticed, 2020 has been not fine

iunno if you caught those small details

hnng

[mystic ermine]

and the solution is to throw anybody who agrees with trump in training camps a restition program?

[elder portal]

nope, just don't vote Trump

that's the solution

[opaque prairie]

probably not, but it might do some good lol

[elder portal]

that's all we can do

is vote

so we vote

[mystic ermine]

and so the alternative is that you vote for somebody who literally has MeToo moments on fucking film

[tough cedar]

ya

[elder portal]

what's the alternative?

vote Trump again?

nope.

vote for a third-party? Yeah, lol, no

I'm not getting my vote split

blame the system for that one

as an American, your two real choices are Dem or Rep

[mystic ermine]

You won't fix the system following the system

and I'm really not sure wtf the fix even is

[elder portal]

yeah, that's why we're voting to oust the EC

[mystic ermine]

But, I doubt biden is gonna fix shit

[elder portal]

he can't do more damage

[mystic ermine]

We're already slated for riots no matter who wins

[elder portal]

that's all that matters right now

if he can fix shit, fantastic

but he won't do any more damage

[mystic ermine]

Not to mention, it took them how fucking long to say that the violence on the streets from their side was not good?

[elder portal]

and that's all we can hope for right now

[mystic ermine]

I mean, if he starts pandering as all shit to the riots, yea, it can get worse, much easily

[elder portal]

it's no use trying to say "they would have done this" because nobody knows

and it just leads to "mine is better than yours"

[tough cedar]

But, I doubt biden is gonna fix shit```
better than it getting worse under trump imo

[mystic ermine]

you already have portland where you can't get the police to your house in a reasonable time if shit happens

[elder portal]

yeah, it just needs to not get worse

Trump will make it worse

[mystic ermine]

It's gonna get worse

[elder portal]

I don't want worse

[mystic ermine]

No matter who you vote, it's gonna get worse

[elder portal]

all we can do is vote for the person least likely to make things worse and hope

[mystic ermine]

There is 0 investigation into anything these days

[elder portal]

even if it's a matter of "how much worse" I'll take less worse

[mystic ermine]

Well, I disagree that biden is gonna make it less worse

[elder portal]

Trump will make it "more worse"

[near glen]

But will he make it more worse?

[elder portal]

so Biden is the answer, here

[mystic ermine]

for you

[elder portal]

it can get worse than this

I hope for many people

everything

the country is more divisve than ever, for example

as evidenced by these conversations

some of it is natural

[mystic ermine]

And what's the DNCs plan for the riots?

[elder portal]

most of it is not

[tough cedar]

biden said he'd already accept the results of the election if he doesn't win

[elder portal]

not a clue, I don't know what the future holds

[tough cedar]

during what, the first debate?

[mystic ermine]

But, that's the thing

[elder portal]

yeah, I believe him

[mystic ermine]

One of the biggest issues right now next to corona

[elder portal]

I also believe Trump when he says he won't take the results if he doesn't win

[mystic ermine]

And we have no idea wtf or where tf he stands

[elder portal]

which is terrifying

[tough cedar]

yes we do, he said he'd follow the science and listen to the CDC

[mystic ermine]

I mean, you have shit like election boxes being set on fire

[elder portal]

eh, said in hindsight, it's harder to take

[mystic ermine]

only real diff I've heard from biden is a mask mandate

[elder portal]

basically: I've seen Trump in action. I no longer want Trump in action. My only other viable alternative is Biden. I hope he does better.

[mystic ermine]

I mean, from what I've seen, you're not voting for biden

[elder portal]

that's my stance

[mystic ermine]

You're voting for kamala

[elder portal]

I'm aware

[mystic ermine]

A person who literally fucked over, and laughed at, the people she's now campaigning to

[elder portal]

Kamala is an interesting pick

Biden is very moderate (left-leaning, but very moderate still) and Kamala seems fairly proactive

it's actually a pretty good mix

nope

[mystic ermine]

I mean, his running partner is somebody who literally called him for being a damned creep

[elder portal]

he's got a good majority in the middle

honestly, if that did happen @mystic ermine I'm more impressed

if you're running for office, you've got dirt out in the public

I would doubt it

I don't see any evidence that would happen

I constantly fear aliens will come and abduct me, but the evidence says "no"

speculation is easy

refuting ideas based on fantasy is easy, really

I didn't actually see that. I should have

[near glen]

Am going to sleep now, please don't set your country on fire while am asleep

[elder portal]

@near glen no promises

[near glen]

I wanna watch live 😂

[elder portal]

wait no

lol

[mystic ermine]

You mean like the reports of biden sniffing peoples hair and groping them?

Not to mention, the literal videos of that happening

[elder portal]

mm, pretty creepy

creepy if true, yeah

don't think that makes him worse than Trump though

[mystic ermine]

creepy if true

There are literally videos on it

[elder portal]

I'd have to look, but I'll take your word that it's true

still not worse than Trump

if that's the worst thing Trump did to even women

[mystic ermine]

Here's the thing that scares me

[elder portal]

I'd be elated

[mystic ermine]

It's all "this shit should get you kicked off the campaign", until its your party

[elder portal]

"grab her by the pussy" will always be in my head

that's probably comparable to Biden

and that's not even the worst thing he's said about women

not even touching all the terrible things he's done as pres

even discounting all of that

there's still worse

[tough cedar]

it's ok, i'd vote for biden even if he shot someone on 5th avenue in new york

[mystic ermine]

The issue with his statement is the level of it

Yea, there's shit guys say which like, we're guys

[elder portal]

and I would say that then at the very least nullifies the creepy Biden thing

so, Biden's still better

[mystic ermine]

But, his kinda went a "bit" too far

The issue is that pandering for "better" is hardly a solution

Biden should have neeeever been pushed for the pole

[elder portal]

but again, trying to get "the best" leads to inaction

Republicans would have won 50 elections by the time Democrats found "the perfect candidate" that everyone loves

searching for better works

searching for the best leads you on a very long trip

and you may never come back

we don't need to do "the best thing" every single vote. We just need to do "the better thing" with every vote

[mystic ermine]

We're not saying that you should run around and find the best

The thing is that you're pandering for morales, but as soon as there is a shot to power, those go out of the window

[elder portal]

I'm actually not affiliated with either party- I go back and forth between voting for Democrat vs Republican

I try to pick the better candidate either way

[mystic ermine]

remember his own presidental bid?

[elder portal]

not sure

[tough cedar]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries_results%2C_2020.svg/400px-Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries_results%2C_2020.svg.png

all the blue is biden

[mystic ermine]

You know, the one he pulled out because he was caught plagourising time after time

[elder portal]

huh

[tough cedar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries

yea, because he's the clear person this time

he's got a ton of name recognition

[elder portal]

gotta say, Trump hasn't really planarized much directly. He mostly just parrots Fox or his echo-chamber on Twitter

iunno if that counts as plagarism

he says enough in his own words that I don't think it counts

[mystic ermine]

~part of me thinks that they knew their chances of winning was meh, so they just wanted to throw biden out to get him done with on the hopes that if he does win, they can replace him with somebody they actually want who voters threw out~

[elder portal]

splitting votes hurts the party you're most closely affiliated with

Trump will have a fair few of his votes split to Kanye West

yay, voting systems!

this is why we need numbered selections

I mean, Republicans have been supplying democratic-like parties with tons of money for years. They finally get their comeuppance this election with Kanye

it goes both ways, though

lot of the techniques used on either side are double-edged swords

eventually the other party starts using the same tactics

if there is a system, people will find a way to game it

always

@autumn lotus redmapping

look at redmapping and tell me Republicans don't use political tactics. lol

both sides do

all the time

Republican party is not perfect

far from it

there's a few solutions to gerrymandering, but redmapping is completely different

we have gerrymandering-resistant voting systems

we just don't use them

bt also, redmapping is very different

that's how we got such a massively-disproportionate Republican leadership

through redmapping

I don't particularly care for one party or the other leading the entire country

and currently, Republicans lead the entire country

and have been for years

we need a swing before it all goes to hell

same with Democrats, if it ever happens that they lead the country we will need a Republican swing quickly

but currently the problem is we're way too far red

this kind of unrest has happened in the past as well, when one party or the other lead the country for a number of years

then a swing happened and all was fine for a while

it's not gerrymandering, no

gerrymandering is redrawing lines to ensure votes for party X outweigh votes for party Y in a single district

redmapping is what's been happening over the last decade, so recently: One large entity paid for sometimes hyper-local elections to ensure as many republicans in as many offices as possible all across the country

that, in turn, naturally effected other elections

that's why we have such a massive disproportionate Republican party controlling everything

which isn't good at all

neither party should be in full control of everything, else.. Well, 2020 happens.

here's a fun listen on redmapping from Planet Money a little while ago: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/916290633/redmap-update

2020 is more than COVID

and also not entirely China's fault

everyone fucked up

everyone

including our leadership

local or otherwise

there's plenty that could have ben done.

yeah, exactly that

masks as well

social distanceing..

none of that happened as quickly as it should have

China isn't entirely to blame

[mystic ermine]

Many dozen countries which mandated mask wearing are on the cusp of wave 2

Not to mention, what do you do about the people who like, gotta feed their family?

[elder portal]

right, and gathering a crowd of 30,000 people all without masks is a good thing

yep, definitely effective

[mystic ermine]

So's having hundreds upon hundreds of people roaming around setting the place on fire...

[elder portal]

I forget, which one of the two actually caught COVID?

was it Biden? Hmm...

[spiral basin]

Boris?

[elder portal]

ya know, my memory is fuzzy

[mystic ermine]

No, it was members of his party which he refused to condemn the actions of.

[elder portal]

😛

either way, everyone fucked up

[dusky raft]

And trump is fine after covid

[mystic ermine]

but, you know, trump gotta tell the white supremasist proud boys to stop showing up at stuff...

[dusky raft]

yeah, white supremasist, founded by a mixed race person

[mystic ermine]

full of mixed race people...

tf is your point?

runs

[elder portal]

ur a point

welp, let's find out who wins in.. 2 months?

something like that

I'm still assuming we're all just trying to do what's best for the country

just different opinions on what "good" looks like

a lot of the racism and immigration stuff is driven by hate

and fuck "sides" at that point

[oak cloak]

ah yes

racism doesn't exist anymore I guess

[dusky raft]

I dont know whats worse, immigration reforms fueled by "hate" or exploitation by the ruling class for underpaid workers

[oak cloak]

glad we solved it

[elder portal]

heh

definitely solved racism, yep

[oak cloak]

and there's not racist people anymore, especially people in power

[elder portal]

definitely not

[oak cloak]

even if all of their followers are racist too

[elder portal]

eh, all is a bit far

[oak cloak]

yes they are

voter id is 100% targeted against black and brown people, that is a fact

[elder portal]

^

[dusky raft]

they cant drive?

they cant go into government buildings?

[oak cloak]

every law ever passed to limit voting has always disproportionately affected those groups of people

[dusky raft]

or apply for fafsa?

[oak cloak]

every single time in history

[dusky raft]

oh wait

wrong thing

[elder portal]

there's also the inability to vote after you've been in prison. Fun fact, many prison inmates are of color

[dusky raft]

lol

I meant apply for welfare

[elder portal]

unless we're all assuming people of color disproportionally commit crimes

which, uhh..

slightly racist.

[plush crypt]

it appears basket has abolished racism, sorry lads, go home

[dusky raft]

that also, you cant say they cant get ID's considering you need to get a license to drive...

[elder portal]

any restrictions on voting are done so to prevent certain groups from voting. Historically, many of these were racist in origin

[dusky raft]

or really do anything

[oak cloak]

@autumn lotus you are talking out of your uninformed ass right now

ah, so they don't exist

[elder portal]

preventing certain groups from voting is an absolutely invaluable tool in achieving power in a democracy. Make it easier for your supporters to vote and harder for your opponents to vote. If your opponents are mostly of color, you pass laws to try to prevent colored people from voting

[oak cloak]

also it has nothing to do with "certain things about a race" - it's everything to do with policies which disproportionately target and affect a particular race

[elder portal]

usually these laws are harmless by themselves, but when combined become systemic racism

[oak cloak]

Which like, learn history, learn about red lining, jim crow, civil rights activism, etc etc, et-fucking-c

[elder portal]

the perfect example is preventing people who have been in prison from voting for life. It kind-of makes sense on the surface, but if you look at prison populations they are heavily disproprotionally colored people

which makes it racist

systemic racism, actually

but they can't

in a lot of cases

that's intentional

voter ID is actually very similar

[dusky raft]

@elder portal so people cant drive? because that is a form of ID

[elder portal]

individually, it sort-of makes sense, but when combined with existing laws it's systemically racist

[dusky raft]

also

[elder portal]

voter fraud essentially does not exist

[dusky raft]

imma let my russian friends they are welcome to register to vote in the US

[elder portal]

the risk/reward isn't worth it

[dusky raft]

wut?

[elder portal]

yeah

you read it right

[dusky raft]

so open up the system because it doesnt exist?

[elder portal]

voter fraud is almost nonexistant

[dusky raft]

then what the fuck was 4 years of muh russia

[elder portal]

not voter fraud?

[dusky raft]

and today with republicans stealing the ballot?

[elder portal]

there is absolutely no valid data that says voter fraud is a serious issue, and a lot of data that says it is almost a non-issue

it's like climate change

sure, you can find a Brietbart article on it or something

but really, come on

[dusky raft]

If it does occur, it shouldnt be left to fester like a splinter

because it tells the people doing so they can continue doing it

[elder portal]

voter fraud doesn't exist, I'm sorry

[dusky raft]

thats the electoral college

[elder portal]

there's no data that supports that claim

[mystic ermine]

You literally admitted that it existed

Your argument is that it's not enough of an issue to care

[elder portal]

sigh it basically doesn't exist.

it's an issue because prominent people have made it an issue

[mystic ermine]

And, there have been calls for protecting the system better, but the solutions generally upset a party or both

[elder portal]

it's the same with voting machines, every goddamned four years we re-discover issues with voting machines

but it's not enough to matter

[dusky raft]

WE need to toss voting machines out the window

[elder portal]

and we forget a month later

[dusky raft]

fuck electronic machines, they are nothing but a problem

[elder portal]

voter fraud has always been a non-issue and there's no evidence to support it being a real problem

there's made-up evidence everywhere

or misconstrued evidence

but nothing concrete

sorry

it's a lie

er.. "alternative fact" - are we still using that?

is that still a thing?

or am I just behind?

[dusky raft]

ill wait till after today to see how everyones tunes change

[elder portal]

after a month or two*

one day isn't enough to count the ballots

[dusky raft]

Which I think is a security problem if it takes that long

[elder portal]

let me blow your minds even more: recycling has also always been a lie. It's infeasible to recycle any plastic, and attempts to do so have been paid for by the plastics industry in order to calm the public down and get them to buy more plastic

you cannot recycle any plastics, ever

it's never been feasible

boom

mind blown

[mystic ermine]

*oh no, that's a shocker, what a...Shit, I canny fake it, i forgot the word for like, so surprising I never coulda guessed

[elder portal]

lol

[mystic ermine]

What do you think about the threats of riots of trump wins?

[elder portal]

it's gonna suck?

yeah, it's gonna suck

[dusky raft]

I dont think ive ever been surprised by that, though putting bottles turned into pellets seems to be good for insulation

[plush crypt]

Over here in Norway, we're quite bothersome with the stuff you need to vote.
First off, you need valid ID. This means passport, (physical) driver's licence, debit card with photo & SSN, (as of this month) national ID card, etc.
Then you need the "ballot" the gov sends you. It says your municipality, county, time of residence, and more. This is just to confirm you're allowed to vote. Some stations (mostly police stations) allow you to verify fingerprint to circumvent this, but only 1 vote per person will be recorded nonetheless.
If you want to vote by mail, you need to register, then mail your vote ballot in an envelope, in a new envelope alongside copy of passport (ONLY passport) and your "I can vote ballot".

I don't see the huge issue with the whole ID stuff in the US. Just require it? It works great for the #1 country on the democracy index, so I don't see why it shouldn't work great for you.

[dusky raft]

from what Ive heard

Yeah

most european countries need voter ID to vote

if not all

[elder portal]

basically the fear is that, when combined with existing laws, it can be systemically racist. It's something we need to look at very closely for fuckery before it's passed

[plush crypt]

How though? You don't even record which of your own citizens are alive, do you?

[elder portal]

historically, most if not all laws restricting voting here in the states have been systemically racist

so we're understandably a little weary

it could be a good thing

buuuuut

they're still in effect

remember the whole "not being able to vote when out of prison" thing? Still exists.

[plush crypt]

The 82 in egg82 actually means he was born in year 82; he remembers all the laws :>

[elder portal]

many do

[mystic ermine]

Well, the US does record deaths

[elder portal]

92, actually

82 is coincidental

[mystic ermine]

The issue afaik is heavily on how outdated the system is in some states

[plush crypt]

1928 years old :/

[elder portal]

lol

[mystic ermine]

Somebody was recently pulled up for registering dead people, for example

[elder portal]

we also don't have a single federal ID

so that complicates things

[mystic ermine]

The issue is that small cases get overlooked as there is no real modernization

[elder portal]

we have driver's licenses that sometimes double as IDs depending on your state

but not everyone has those

not every drives

[dusky raft]

well federal was meant to roll out REALID, which is just a stamp on your drivers license or state ID

[elder portal]

most people from SF don't drive, for example

[mystic ermine]

and every attempt at that basically goes out of the window, but, there are many dozen issues where, do you trust the people making the voting machines, etc

[plush crypt]

Over here in Norway, we allow (almost try to force, even) everyone who's a permanent resident and a resident of so so many years to vote. Doesn't matter if that residency is prison, doesn't matter how many sheets of paper printing your record takes, you're allowed to vote

Which I might add, works great!

[elder portal]

the US is the only first-world country without a fed ID

it tends to complicate a lot of things

[plush crypt]

mm false

[elder portal]

hm?

which other?

[dusky raft]

Which is why RealID is trying to become a thing

[plush crypt]

Norway also doesn't yet. We're rolling them out in a week or two

[dusky raft]

and I think thats a better system

[mystic ermine]

he said first world

runs

[elder portal]

okay, I count Norway though 😛

lol

[plush crypt]

First world doesn't include the US though :p

[elder portal]

ahaaaaa, jokes

lol

[plush crypt]

hehe

[mystic ermine]

UK doesn't have federal ID either

[elder portal]

iirc UK definitely has a feder ID

[dusky raft]

https://www.dhs.gov/real-id

[elder portal]

that's why we don't

[plush crypt]

don't yall have EU IDs until end of december though, cat?

[elder portal]

because "fuck you English poshes"

if only we actually had real federal IDs right now

currently, I can think of one group requiring IDs would attempt to exclude: Democrats

most Democrats live in large cities, and the only form of ID you usually get is a driver's license, which costs money and time to take the test

and most of them don't bother getting one

[dusky raft]

thats their problem then

[elder portal]

they don't need it. Uber exists, bikes, etc

[mystic ermine]

States should fix that

[elder portal]

but it could be an attempt to exclude them

also excluding the poor

it's something to consider before implementing it

[dusky raft]

your saying systemic racism is preventing them getting an ID, but your saying lack of time also

[mystic ermine]

imho, ID should be government provided

[elder portal]

since when are state IDs $5?

what state do you live in? lol

[dusky raft]

MOST companies are fine with people taking a few hours out of their day to do things

[mystic ermine]

But, EU IDs are literally not a thing I've ever heard of

[dusky raft]

and I do think depending on the state, some exceptions are to be granted

[elder portal]

either way, that would definitely be something to consider before implementing mandatory state ID for voting. It could exclude certain groups.

[mystic ermine]

Only real photo ID people have over here is their drivers license or a passport, of which I have neither because poor ass family

[dusky raft]

but yeah, ID's arent expensive, its $30 for an ID that expires in 5 years?

[mystic ermine]

The government triiiied a scheme a few years ago which fell on its face as the cards where so easy to forge, that when they /finally/ fixed that, the system was cast so far into the shadows that nobody really cares about it

[elder portal]

gotta look at which groups it would exclude and who it would benefit/detriment as well as who is promoting it and why

[mystic ermine]

$30 is a week of food for some

even longer

That's part of the issue with fixing a cost of stuff and screaming that it's cheap

[dusky raft]

I dont know where the hell you live, but you got more issues being in a democrat run city than being in the countryside where its cheap

[elder portal]

really?

I love the big city

fast internet, everything is close

[dusky raft]

its expensive and lots of people complain about random bullshit like this

[elder portal]

really awesome people

[mystic ermine]

See, I'm conflicted, there are pros, but, being so cramped to people

[elder portal]

laws that tend to protect you

[mystic ermine]

The cost of living in those areas are also stupid

[elder portal]

as someone who grew up on a farm, in a small town, and moved to the big city, I prefer the city

cost of living is dumb, but that's pretty much the only real downside

also traffic

but yeah, trade-offs are worth

[mystic ermine]

I'd love like a "in the middle" aspect

Ofc, if you live in the middle of fuck anywhere, you're SOL for companies who have to pay fucking thousands to provide services even close to you to offer services

[dusky raft]

I'm not purely in the middle of nowhere, but this cabin's got fantastic internet/electric

and I dont deal with people

[mystic ermine]

I'd love sorta like a "off the city, but, still within viable distance that ISPs would be stupid not to run services there"

[elder portal]

interestingly enough, two things are true:

1. Younger people tend to lean more democratic, older tend to lean more republican
2. People in larger areas tend to be more democratic, and more rural republican

a few things lead from those two

[mystic ermine]

I saw a fun thing

apparently gen Z was the first generation in fuck knows how long where the children had more conservative values than left

[elder portal]

you're right, I mis-typed: older is more conservative, and younger more liberal

[dusky raft]

though, I find it odd with systemic racism is why the local population doesnt just vote out the people that havent fixed anything until now?

[elder portal]

although they're close enough to the parties

[mystic ermine]

The issue is party politics

[elder portal]

"just vote out all the bad people"
thanks, good advice. Never thought of that.

how could I have been so blind?

[mystic ermine]

Like, you're basically told that the democrats are the party for you and you'd have to be a moron to vote otherwise, essentially

[elder portal]

or you pick your party

[dusky raft]

I mean cities vote in the same people/party every cycle and not much changes

and a lot of complaints of systemic racism are in the city

[elder portal]

people might be told that. I like to think a lot of people think for themselves

[mystic ermine]

I mean, part of the issue is you pick your party and it doesn't happen to line up, you can lose all your friends and be pushed as a shame to the community

[elder portal]

I don't know the feeling 😛

can't imagine what that must be like. lol

/s

[mystic ermine]

there's been a lot of discussion on it from movements like walk away

[elder portal]

problem with those kinds of movements is they tend to create echo chanbers

[mystic ermine]

I wonder if dem cities are the ones which tend to shove for unions and other BS

[elder portal]

also they're heavily used to try to get opposing parties to give up hope and not vote

[mystic ermine]

I know repubs are generally more against unions last I recall

[shut vine]

There was a record number of registered Democrats changing their registration to Republican this year allegedly

[elder portal]

demotivational campaigns are quite real, and effective

since when are unions BS?

[mystic ermine]

Yea, but does it not raise red flags when people start saying about how they where cast out of their communities because they had a difference of opinion?

[elder portal]

they protect workers

kinda their job

[dusky raft]

I hate unions that act like businesses

[elder portal]

maybe to a fault

[shut vine]

Unions typically are more important in US because some basic protections other countries have they don't have

[elder portal]

cough police union

[mystic ermine]

Well, that's the point

[dusky raft]

im anti police union

[mystic ermine]

I've heard some reports that unions are almost as cancerous as HOA's in some cases

[elder portal]

it's good to have that power struggle, though. Without unions we'd still have child and slave labor.

[dusky raft]

but im anti any union, or their current implementation

[elder portal]

at least child labor

slave labor might be gone

the point of government is to attempt to control business

[mystic ermine]

I mean, you shouldn't need unions and it's a total ass shame that we do

[elder portal]

that's the whole idea

[mystic ermine]

But, there needs to be protections to ensure that unions can't turn into the police unions

[dusky raft]

no, the point of government is to make sure everyone is playing by the rules set and to govern a group of people

protect and serve

[elder portal]

the purpose of a business is to gain more money. Everything else is secondary. If that's your only goal, running mines with slave labor is immensely profitable

[shut vine]

Yeah unions are typically very HOA like, they have power / money hungry people running them usually.

[elder portal]

that's when gov't steps in and says "no"

[dusky raft]

HOAs should be illegal

[mystic ermine]

Well, it's why there needs to be a better labour market, so people aren't stuck working for people which do that shit

[elder portal]

HOAs are interesting, because they're small-scale politics and business rolled into one

makes for a fun game

[mystic ermine]

Easier said than done in some areas

[shut vine]

I think they should make certain actions HOA's and Unions do illegal.

[elder portal]

if I had an HOA, I would immediately try to find out how to lead it

power to the powerful, and all

I may be moving to an area with one

we shall see

[mystic ermine]

I mean, it's catch22 with HOAs

Some areas can be good and have HOAs which actually are just there to look out for the community and support it

[dusky raft]

HOAs tend to control how your property looks and benefits

[mystic ermine]

Some are just there to shit on people coz look at my power

[elder portal]

where's that "rules for rulers" video? It's fantastic at explaining why corporations, politicians, and HOAs act the way they do

[shut vine]

HOA's are good until they infringe on your personal freedoms

[elder portal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

it's a good watch

well worth it

[dusky raft]

But yeah, I just find it odd with people complaining about systemic racism and voting infringements happen to be in cities runned by the party that says the same thing

[elder portal]

need some evidence for that claim

[dusky raft]

it would have been solved at the state level since elections are controlled by the state

[shut vine]

To be honest, I believe in the idea that US politics is ruled by a one party system. The two parties are just an illusion to hide that party, which is the establishment.

[dusky raft]

I mean, I dont know what evidence I need to provide with super majority democratic state cali and democratic majority new york?

[elder portal]

the positive claim requires the burden of proof, after all

[shut vine]

There are a lot of areas where both parties literally vote the same way when they're in power.

[elder portal]

I think that's a bit tinfoil-hat for me

[dusky raft]

if dems are the ones screaching about equality when it comes to voting and whatnot, you would expect this problem to be resolved in their local state?

[mystic ermine]

The issue with many aspects is "we don't wanna see it"

[elder portal]

homelessness is a good example of "we don't wanna see it"

but again, I'mma need that proof

[mystic ermine]

People want more green power, but, they don't want see the wind farms

[dusky raft]

they do have the power to kick racists out of low level positions if they so want to

[mystic ermine]

and homelessness is basically the #1 thing I was thinking of

e.g. that guy who made the tiny houses

Yea, it's not a solution for the issue

[elder portal]

anyone can say anything. For example, Republicans are single-handedly ruining our country and it's entirely their fault.
Do I believe it? Nah. But hey, debate on that while I think of another positive claim.

[dusky raft]

Its a double standard I see with these people

[mystic ermine]

But, you know, until the state who is throwing metric fucktons of money into the issue, it's like...

[shut vine]

Oh, you're talking to me?

[mystic ermine]

You have stuff like areas of these states which are basically impoverished, but, people can't really build anything there or add opertunities to the area because they'll throw all the existing people there out

But, what else do you do to boost theses areas up, without providing opertunities to help boost those areas?

[brisk cradle]

🍿

Trump indicates that he doesn't have acceptance or concession speech prepared

[elder portal]

ohai @brisk cradle

[mystic ermine]

Like, I understand the concern that some aspects will bring people from all over in, and that's something that defo needs to be fixed

[elder portal]

I'm 99% sure I've been the only non-Republican in this chat all day

[dusky raft]

@elder portal What I am saying, is that if systemic racism has been an issue for years, and democrats have been saying they are planning on solving racism at its core, wouldnt you think that the states they control fix those issues when obama was around?

[shut vine]

Yeah, Tux, if you hadn't realized by now, Trump speaks off the cuff.

[mystic ermine]

Or, well, there needs to be some form of way to try to encourage these companies to try to dip into local pools vs encouraging mass exodous

[brisk cradle]

please do not tell me the bleeding obvious, thanks

[mystic ermine]

I mean, am not really sure where I stand on parties

[elder portal]

I'm drowning in arguments

[mystic ermine]

Then again, I'm a brit, so, who am I to talk

[elder portal]

one person cannot research everything all at once 😦

[mystic ermine]

if ur so smart egg

[brisk cradle]

I can just think of both speeches right now:

Fellow Americans, thank for for your yuge support of me. Together we'll make America a cruel place again.

And what if he loses?

It's all fake! Biden didn't win! There were 100,000 fake ballots cast in Pennsylvania!

[shut vine]

He's not your typical politician who has all the non-answers prepared

[elder portal]

Trump's already stated he won't take losing well

Biden's stated that he would

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[shut vine]

Well he's insinuated it

[elder portal]

an attempt was made

[mystic ermine]

Lets face it

[shut vine]

It remains to be seen

[elder portal]

I mean, I believe Trump, unfortunately

[mystic ermine]

If in some convoluted world, you ran for pres and lost to somebody like biden, I think I'd cast yourself to the shadows

[shut vine]

If you think Biden will take losing well at this point you're probably not listening to the music in the room though

[dusky raft]

Hillary is still bitter about it to this day

[elder portal]

mm, I believe Biden here, as well

he's pretty level-headed

[mystic ermine]

hillary already pitched in and said biden shouldn't concede no matter what happens

[shut vine]

Yeah, there are groups who don't want either of them in, and will riot regardless.

Correct.

Obama said similar I think

[elder portal]

sure, but I'll say I believe Biden when he says he's not going to dispute a fair loss

[dusky raft]

fair

[elder portal]

I'm not sure Obama said anything about rioting either

[shut vine]

Fair is subjective, he's already said Trump is trying to rig it.

[elder portal]

not really Obama's thing

[shut vine]

He has already set his way out of fair.

We can continue to speculate though

[elder portal]

I mean, of course Republicans are trying to rig it. So are Democrats. Everyone's been trying to rig it for centuries.

[dusky raft]

The problem is by saying fair is that Biden's campaign is prepared to look into everything to make sure no foul play was involved, which would just drag the elections through further

[elder portal]

how are we this behind?

[mystic ermine]

I think part of the issue is that trump refuses to speak politician

[elder portal]

everyone's playing this game

[opaque prairie]

i mean you could argue several things repubs have done have been attempts to rig it

[elder portal]

sorry to break it to you, but the rules are broken

saying "the opponent is trying to rig it!" is part of the game

[shut vine]

We're not in disillusion about this.

[elder portal]

it happens every election, in both parties

gotta get past the shit that always happens first

why is this election unique?

a few reasons, I can think of

[opaque prairie]

its not, i dont think bush should have wont 2000. im like 99% sure that is was stolen

[shut vine]

It's not now, this election is the same as last election.

[elder portal]

welp, that was 20 years ago. This is now.

[shut vine]

Two bad picks.

[elder portal]

I mean, it's different in many ways

voter turnout is massive

the internet age caught up with politics a bit

[shut vine]

Yeah that was 20 years ago, the counties in Florida didn't comply with the election law of Florida.

[opaque prairie]

the fundamental difference is, repubs accuse dems of rigging by allowing more people to vote, and dems accusing repubs of rigging by restricting who votes

[elder portal]

lots of Google/Twitter/Fakebook/Apple saying "go vote!"

didn't really happen last year

er.. Last election

[shut vine]

Florida General 2000 is very different to the current situation

[elder portal]

maybe it's just me, but it seems more prominent. Google's always done its thing, but now all the other are too

only thing I've seen from them is, "go vote!"

[opaque prairie]

basket why can russia influence the election but not big tech

[elder portal]

also, that thing again. Was recent, though, so hey

[shut vine]

They can for the same reason big tech can

They utilize big tech

[elder portal]

Russia seems to be wanting to help Biden this year

[opaque prairie]

russia is documented to have broken into voting systems

[elder portal]

putting out PSAs on Trump

[shut vine]

egg82, you know how there was the big investigation into Trump?

[elder portal]

yep

[opaque prairie]

preventing misinformation is different vs silencing voices

[elder portal]

the campaign

[shut vine]

That was entirely based off Russian disinformation.

[elder portal]

yep

I'm just saying, can't have it both ways

[plush crypt]

no?

[elder portal]

my opinion is nobody should be interfering with American elections

[shut vine]

The source for the allegations in the Steele dossier were Russian assets.

[opaque prairie]

so you are willing to give free education to all then? college too?

[plush crypt]

"yo guys we only have 20 cases a week with trump!!" isn't "for the voter to find out"...

[opaque prairie]

how do you expect voters to figure it out if theyre not educated

[shut vine]

FBI knew this, and blocked it, but then rogue agents sourced it via back channels.

[elder portal]

lol, expecting the average person to try to figure things out themselves. It's a good sentiment, I'll give you that.

[opaque prairie]

that only works if everyone is educated

[elder portal]

@shut vine I'm aware, I've been following

[shut vine]

I'm glad.

[opaque prairie]

which is something repubs have been working against for decades

[elder portal]

but yeah, seems Russia is looking to help Biden's campaign this year

[plush crypt]

objectively wrong information should in every sense of the word be marked as objectively wrong

[mystic ermine]

censoring info needs to be fair game

[shut vine]

Also be careful about Russia tbh, they're likely to "help" a candidate to make them look bad.

[mystic ermine]

and tbqh, it's been kinda funny, as they've been making it more fair, and now the people who where screaming for this are screaming that AI does stuff like blocking them for spouting stuff

[elder portal]

mhm, true

to Russia

[shut vine]

They're PROBABLY just trying to destabilize democracy, so wide net approach.

[mystic ermine]

Soviet US of Russia

[plush crypt]

A quick search later and that twitter acc suspension was 100% fair game

[elder portal]

anyway, it really all sounds like a lot of "as long as they're helping Trump I'm okay with it" rather than anything consistently logical

[plush crypt]

they violated twitter's TOS, so they got it suspended. nothing wrong with that whatsoever

[mystic ermine]

who?

[shut vine]

Who violated it?

[plush crypt]

trump's campaign acc

[shut vine]

NYPOST was not publishing anything against their TOS.

[opaque prairie]

which was false mind you

[shut vine]

Neither was Kayleigh McEnany

[elder portal]

the whole Biden/Hunter story has been disproven repeatedly

so hey

[mystic ermine]

where?

[elder portal]

misinformation is always fun

everywhere?

[shut vine]

It hasn't really, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was false.

[mystic ermine]

I've heard of it being disproven, but I've heard of a security researcher proving the contents of the email where legit

[elder portal]

was under investigation

same as Trump's story

[shut vine]

The FBI will not give accurate information on the status of that until probably tomorrow.

[opaque prairie]

id like it if everyone was taught enough critical thinking skills that misinformation wasnt an issue

[elder portal]

look slike FBI investigation, yes

[opaque prairie]

but republicans have worked against eduacation for decades so that wont be happening

[shut vine]

They learned their lesson from 2016 I think.

[elder portal]

my lord, who can you trust?

[mystic ermine]

nobody

[elder portal]

everyone's out to get Trump, huh?

he's the victim, here

[shut vine]

Generally yea.

[elder portal]

fucking hell, you guys

really?

[foggy fern]

I don't know if anyone knows what the emails actually were but Russia was shopping around emails and documents they hacked from Burisma in 2019, never found a buyer afaik

[elder portal]

do you hear yourselves?

hand-waving everything away with arguments that barely hold together

[shut vine]

The news literally finds every little thing to hammer him on.

[elder portal]

ever heard of occam's razor?

[shut vine]

He's literally denounced white supremacist groups 19 times.

They wont stop though.

[foggy fern]

He keeps doing a bad job of it

[opaque prairie]

because he literally wouldnt do it on stage?

[dusky raft]

I still think the burisma thing should be looked into, even if it turns out to be false

[elder portal]

maybe, just fuckin' maybe, Trump isn't the victim in every. Single. Goddamned. Claim. Against him.

[foggy fern]

He doesn't just do it full stop, he always has to equivocate

[shut vine]

No I don't think he is.

[mystic ermine]

as I say, trumps issue is that he's not a politician there

[opaque prairie]

he literally told them to stand by on stage at a presidential debate

[shut vine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0I_pTWjfaM

[elder portal]

there is SO MUCH handwaving that goes on around EVERY SINGLE ONE of Trump's stories with so much "believe me, this happened" when nothing happened, and eveyone just assumes everyone else is lieing

[mystic ermine]

It would be easy to say "i disavvow white supremacy", the issue is that especially recently, everytime he's asked, he has to try to spin it to be I'm good, they're bad, and that's easy for the anybody to shove their way

[elder portal]

fucking hell

is the entire world lying to you?

guys, come on

really

sigh

alright, I'm out

no more

I love you all to death, but lord have mercy

[mystic ermine]

I mean, they're blatently saying that he refuses to disavow right wing militias

But, he has

[shut vine]

I don't think he's always the victim, but there's a huge bias against him in the media.

[mystic ermine]

He's done a fucking pig ass job of it

But, it's not like he's not said it

[foggy fern]

Also the only public version of the emails supposedly from this laptop are some PDFs of printouts of them, no headers or anything

So how could anyone say if they're legit?

[shut vine]

Yeah, the media wont accept he has, and continues to ask him to, he has buggered it up a time or two though

[foggy fern]

Unless something else has been released that I haven't seen

[mystic ermine]

I'm personally in that middle area of it being sketchy as fuck on both sides

[shut vine]

I agree

[dusky raft]

I honestly think hunter needs some explaining to do as to why he was in ukraine and china

[shut vine]

Pictures can be faked with enough money

[mystic ermine]

I think part of the thing is that "russian disinformation" is literally just a fallback shield these days more than somebody actually standing up to say anything substantial

[shut vine]

Be skeptical, there is currently one independent witness, and Russia claiming the whole thing is false.

[dusky raft]

If I were putin, id be playing both sides, which makes me think IF russia is at play, they would do their best to fuck both sides over

[shut vine]

In fact Russia has the same opinion mostly as the 50 ex-intelligence analysts/officials.

Not sure, he's not running for President though

[dusky raft]

it makes sense for one side to accuse the other while being played by the same third party

[shut vine]

As far as the links to Joe we need to be wary, otherwise it's not a matter for the election

I think so too, but, I think reserving judgement is a good idea

I think an investigation similar to the Special Counsel investigation of 2017 should occur.

[foggy fern]

I mean, aside from being established as a lawyer and lobbyist

[dusky raft]

yeah, it makes no sense as to why he was in an energy firm

outside the US

[foggy fern]

But he was almost certainly hired because of his last name so he could make them look more credible

[shut vine]

Would you support a Special Counsel investigation Amaranth?

[foggy fern]

He doesn't even have to do anything, just being there makes them look better

I think it's already been investigated a couple times in the US and Ukraine, not sure if there is a point

[shut vine]

Provided the "laptop" hasn't already been proven fake.

[foggy fern]

If the FBI thinks there is anything to the laptop they should look in to it

[dusky raft]

I think those investigations were made into as to why trump looked into it, not just because hunter was in ukraine

[foggy fern]

But from what I saw the smoking gun email from the laptop was a bad photoshop

[shut vine]

It could very well be, just like the Obama/Biden administration were doing in 2016

Oh the impeachment itself was about Trump withholding congressionally appropriated funds to Ukraine, I misunderstood.

[restive seal]

He wanted them to commit to announcing an investigation of biden

[shut vine]

Those funds were the same funds (1 billion US) Biden threatened to withhold if Ukraine didn't fire the allegedly soft on corruption prosecutor who had an investigation into the company Hunter worked for.

Allegedly that investigation had been dormant for 6-12 months.

Yeah, Trump allegedly demanded they investigated Hunter in Ukraine.

[mystic ermine]

8, last I recall

But, if you're already in line...

[shut vine]

An executive branch entity blocked funding to that cause as well.

[foggy fern]

Biden got the prosecutor fired because the US and EU were going to stop helping them if not due to them being corrupt and making no effort to clean up their act

[shut vine]

Yeah, doesn't change how it looks though

[foggy fern]

iirc it was the EU leading the charge, Biden was just the messenger and the US was the primary funder so had the big stick

[shut vine]

That's literally what I said in my breakdown of it

Well not literally, missed the part about other countries

[foggy fern]

It has been looked in to

The FBI has looked at it, Ukraine has looked at it a few different times as different government come in to power

Congress has looked at it

[shut vine]

Just like the Trump allegations were looked into by the FBI and discredited prior to the special counsel investigation?

[foggy fern]

The special council investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election had nothing to do with the Steele dossier

Probably because they're the NYTimes and not a tabloid

And others can get their own off the record sources to confirm enough things

[shut vine]

Well the laptop is not from an anonymous source is it?

[foggy fern]

The Steele dossier was discredited before that investigation was created but the FBI was still looking in to Russian interference and any possible connections with the Trump campaign, the special council just picked up their work (and most of the people working on it)

No one else has seen the laptop

A blind guy and Rudy Giuliani had it, I don't even think the NYPost had it

They just got some pictures and screenshots

[shut vine]

I don't think Rudy has seen the actual laptop, just a copy of the data.

[restive seal]

"Here are the files from the laptop, analyze and verify" would have gone a long way. Instead it's "Here's some PDFS of the laptop's files, without useful data to verify, trust me I'm America's Mayor"

[shut vine]

The FBI has it, if my memory is accurate.

[restive seal]

Did the FBI confirm that or just random computer guy claim it?

[foggy fern]

Which is probably why even at the NYPost none of the "reporters" wanted their name attached to the story so they put a random woman's name on it who had nothing to do with it

[shut vine]

The FBI has operated by the standard rules set by the DOJ, they have no confirmed, denied, or made any formal statement about it

[foggy fern]

And no newspapers or networks wanted anything to do with it

[shut vine]

It's an election year, and the information is related to a candidate, so if they are investigating it, I think it's good they're not talking about it.

[restive seal]

So... facts don't matter to you, just feelings. Helpful.

[foggy fern]

Eh, they have a lot of stories like that they don't talk about because they're non-credible

[restive seal]

The media doesn't need something so vague on Trump to go on about. He admits to enough things, openly does enough things. They don't need such a ridiculous hole-filled story from a guy known to our intelligence services to be a target of Russian disinfo

[foggy fern]

You only hear about them when they make a mention about them for some other reason

Or if someone posted it online they might cover the noise twitter is making about it and maybe vox would write a piece about it

[shut vine]

Yeah, that's how it should be, they're not a newspaper.

We don't know what's going on is my point.

[foggy fern]

We didn't even get the headers for the emails

[shut vine]

If there is an investigation we shouldn't find out about it until charges are laid.

[foggy fern]

Those would be trivial to provide and would at least prove it was actually an email that got sent by a real gmail account

[shut vine]

Even then considering the possible subject in this case, maybe not even then.

[foggy fern]

wikileaks dumps had headers, didn't they?

[shut vine]

Comey making a statement like he did back in 2015 was against DOJ regulations.

Wait, WikiLeaks had dumps of the Biden stuff? Or we talking about Clinton?

[foggy fern]

The media sat on the dossier for months and only started talking about it after one of them decided they liked money more than credibility

[shut vine]

The evidence that the dossier was fake was not released for a long period.

[foggy fern]

They couldn't verify anything in it so didn't publish anything. Once one of them did now they could talk about the controversy

[shut vine]

That came out as part of the Special Counsel investigation I think.

[foggy fern]

Comey's announcement noticeably changed the race

You could watch the movement in the polls before/after the announcement

[shut vine]

Robert Mueller had to remove Lisa Page and Peter Strzok once that was discovered along side their personal emails.

Amaranth, which way do you feel the polls went?

[shut vine]

I'm curious as to why he announced it.

[sand shale]

What time does the election results start?

[brisk cradle]

Expect the first results to roll in around 7PM EST

[foggy fern]

He thought Congress would leak details about it that make it look worse

[shut vine]

https://electproject.github.io/Early-Vote-2020G/index.html

[foggy fern]

They immediately tried to

[shut vine]

Appears Democrats may be winning currently on early voting counts.

[foggy fern]

Within a day of the Comey letter, Google searches for “Clinton FBI” had increased 50-fold and searches for “Clinton email” almost tenfold.

[shut vine]

Well you have to admit, that looked super suspicious.

Also the fact Obama had emails from her private server, and claimed he didn't know about it.

[brisk cradle]

@shut vine Keep in mind that data is based on voter registration status. There may be registered Republicans who voted for Biden, likewise registered Democrats may have voted for Trump.