I am not sure, I did notice once that it couldn't handle a simple correction for a word I typo'd.
#politics
shut vine
foggy fern
symtomatic sjk teh
Nope it didn't tell me any of those are spelled wrong or offer suggestions on right click
shut vine
It was two letters the wrong way around.
foggy fern
Looks like it actually just doesn't work at all on Linux
The times I notice it working must be when I'm on my desktop or phone
shut vine
Ah interesting, which distro?
foggy fern
Ubuntu
They claim it's because Linux doesn't have a standard spellchecker API they can use but apparently they use a JS version of hunspell on Windows and macOS anyway
elder portal
sand shale
shut vine
foggy fern
Wow this video is so bad
They could have made a legit version of this but this is just a gateway pundit view of the world
shut vine
It's meant to be comedic
smoky hedge
Funnily enough, Australia's postal votes generally lean towards conservative where it seems that everyone is saying that postal voters in the US will be democrat voters?
I assume the reasoning here is that postal voters are generally the elderly
near glen
This year's it's because covid I would assume?
Democrats seem to be more responsible about the pandemic, trying to avoid ppl, etc
While Republicans still go to rallies
Idk
I vote by mail all the time since I am fucking lazy and don't wanna leave my house on a Sunday 😂
near glen
Well, why else would trump be so scared of mail voting?
plush crypt
it's almost like they go to as great lengths as they can to verify with what they've got, i.e. signature and only 1 vote per person stored...
mystic ermine
It's the nature of, "I dare you to put $500 in the mail and send it to yourself"
plush crypt
the dead person thing would be handled if y'all actually kept active record of who lives in your country
mystic ermine
The issue is nobody wants to fix that shit unless it doesn't benefit them
There are ofc records of that shit
near glen
For my mail in ballot I just signed up online with my date of birth SSN and name and address but anyone could have that info
@autumn lotus why wouldn't they send it to your residential address?
In Germany everybody gets a letter, it's a notification of the vote, telling you where you can vote, when, and for whom. You bring that letter if you vote, that's basically your registration (altho you obviously don't need to register). If you don't want to/can't come in to vote, that same letter has a form you can send back setting you up for mail in voting. You don't enter any info tho, they know who you are and where you life you they just send you that info. If you requested mail in voting, you can no longer vote in person (you are not entered into the list they have at the polling station), unless you show up with your mail voting stuff there
If you want your mail voting stuff to a different location, you enter that into the form they send you at first
Honestly not sure what happens then
But I know that I could vote by mail whole on vacation abroad using this method
mystic ermine
The issue is that the entire US voting system is about 100 years out of date
Every attempt to modernise it or add steps to protect it generally falls on its face
near glen
That's the beauty of rewriting your consitution 3 times in the last 100 years I guess 😂
What I don't understand in america is that you need to register to vote, right?
mystic ermine
Due to differences in how people vote, different measures to protect stuff generally upsets one party a lot more than the other and so people throw a fit and shit doesn't get fixed
mystic ermine
states are fucking useless at maintaining records, for one
near glen
So basically, the gov doesn't know who actually lives in your country?
Not sure how that is a problem
You can move states in germany too and gov still know where you at
mystic ermine
States are useless at maintaining records
near glen
Yeah I get the whole backwards electorial college thing
mystic ermine
The entire issue is the paper trails involved
and the fact that every attempt to fix an issue generally falls flat on its face
near glen
But I don't see how that has anything to do with keeping track on ppls residential address and whether they alive or not
mystic ermine
as well as people generally not trusting technology in the system because of the ineptitude of government, etc
near glen
I just got an ID card, which got my name, some number, few facts (height, place of birth, nationality, eye color I think) and my address
If I move, I get a new id card
All this stuff is stored in some database
mystic ermine
There's stories of people getting ballets to their adress with their name of the envelope, with different names actually inside
got an ID card
near glen
At both city level and federal level I guess
mystic ermine
Which is great, but, the dems are heavily against voter ID verification
near glen
It's not a voter id
It's just my identification card for everything
To proof that I am me
mystic ermine
Do you show your ID card when you go to vote?
near glen
I can even travel with that to many countries
Yes, so that they can tick me off the list
mystic ermine
WHich is exactly what the fuck voter ID is
They're not saying a specific piece of ID handed out for voting
near glen
Wait so you don't have Id cards in the us
How would you not have an id?
Here you can get it starting at 12 and got to have it at 14
mystic ermine
Afaik, there are two primary reasons
- You're a stupid idiot and didn't bring it with you
- You're a fast runner
near glen
In Germany, you got one mandatory day off work per year for handling such bureocracy shit
Same as one day off for moving
Here you are required to have an id
Like, if police stops you, you need to be able to identify yourself
mystic ermine
I think you're missing the point
^
You pretty much can't do fuck all without proper ID
near glen
Ok so the vote registering thing is then to catch ppl that don't have a id?
mystic ermine
you don't need ID to register afaik
near glen
Since not everybody has an id, but everybody is allowed to vote, you basically create a seperate set of records just for voting?
mystic ermine
you can generally just do it online
and where do you derive those records from?
The entire issue is the fact that the entire record/paper trail is fucked
near glen
It just sounds so strange
plush crypt
you can vote.. without an ID?
mystic ermine
checking ID at the polls was a method they wanted to use to verify if the person voting was legit, but, that got a "no no", and some states even made it illegal last I recall
Yes, Proxi
plush crypt
what the fuck lmao
near glen
The replaced the ID requirement with a requirement to register proxi
plush crypt
near glen
Instead of just fxing the fact that not everybody got an id
plush crypt
not everyone has an ID here either (theyre finally rolling out ID cards theyve postponed since 2009 next month tho)
we do have to have a passport or debit ID to vote nonetheless though
near glen
Yeah, we got a passport ontop of an ID too
But not everybody got a passport
You only need a passport for travel
mystic ermine
The issue is that if a method of protecting the system potentially hits one party or the other potentially, they'll veto the fuck out of it
near glen
Which comes back to the fact that your two party system is fucked beyond repair because everybody refuses compromises
The more I learn about systems in the US the sadder I get
Really feels like you missed a century of reforms
plush crypt
flawed democracy according to the democracy index btw :')
near glen
Which comes back to the fact that you never change your consitution, just amend it, right?
mystic ermine
yall've already had the first reports of boxes of ballets sitting in post offices
I don't think that the issue is the constitution
near glen
Amended means added, right?
mystic ermine
It's a multi-layer issue
near glen
Ah ok, then I got the term wrong
So you actually could rewrite a section?
Ah that's what I mean
You never change the actual text, just add new stuff to the end
And you don't just change the text because it's holy?
It drastically would remove complexity, lol
mystic ermine
- In order to enact change to anything, you gotta get enough people to agree, which, erm...
- The media heavily biases towards one party, if you're an independant you're generally fucked for screen coverage, which creates a more fun issue in that apparently dems are more likely to be a single news source consumer vs republicans
- The entire nature of party vs party is fucked, people voting for independent parties generally get attacked by the DNC voters, right now because orange man bad
near glen
It's not that the two parties created the system, the system heavily favors two big parties
The electoral college is just one example of that I guess
mystic ermine
issue with getting shit changed is 1 and 2
near glen
But isn't there a movement among states to get rid of that?
mystic ermine
Well, one of the reasons for the electoral college is to get rid of stuff like a single state controlling the sway of the whole country
people living in their ivory towers have no clue/care about the farmers in the rural lands
near glen
Which is why you got congress where all those different ppl would be represented?
Congress is the one where every party of every states sends ppl in, right? A parliment
But the ppl in senate are not the governors, right?
There's another thing where all governors come together y right?
mystic ermine
The government itself is generally more akin to what the EU is
near glen
The EU has something where all presidents of all member states come together
mystic ermine
define "come together"
near glen
And a parliment where every state has bunch of representatives from every party
The European council
The parliment is the europe parliment
Yes I know how Federalism works
I am just wondering if there is something where the governors of all states work together
At federal level
So that's your senate then
Yeah in the EU council it's one per country but whatever
mystic ermine
where the governors of all states work together
near glen
Can both the house and the Senate propose new laws?
mystic ermine
Well, that's the entire issue
The hope is that parties in the house work with each other, and parties in senate work with each other
The entire places are designed to be seperate, however, for the entire nature of "checks and balances" type stuff, each is there to look over the other
The internal issue is parties actually working together
near glen
Yeah germany has that too
We have one thing every we one on per state, and one thing where we have plenty per state, based on population
And we have the gov
mystic ermine
e.g. the stimulus bill is a really fun one
near glen
All 3 need to work together for important laws
Basically, the the council proposes a new law, they gotta go thru discussions with the parliment and make changes till they agree
mystic ermine
Well, there's stuff in the DNC demands which the repubs are heavily against
Pretty sure that there were even provisions to send cash to some states for dealing with the rioting, etc...
near glen
Ah yes, veto
The most democratic thing ever
I hate veto, veto in the EU is cancer, veto in the UN is even more cancer cause only a hand full ppl get to veto
Well, that's important
It's the 3rd branch
mystic ermine
What really needs to happen imho for the US is to drain the swamp and get rid of the career politician
We need to do the same shit over here too
near glen
The issue with supreme court is the way ppl get elected and that they get elected for their whole life
Your supreme court is political
Both parties make it political
mystic ermine
Which is heavily a core part of the issue
It shouldn't be political
The person going there is essentially expected to cut off their party affiliation last I knew
But, ofc, when your pool is basically members of your own party...
near glen
Well basket that's like interpreting the bible without applying it to the current situation
mystic ermine
But, that's broken sementics
near glen
And well, your constitution should be continually updated
mystic ermine
The idea of the entire US is that the constituion should be followed as it was intended
and, it should be, and it is
near glen
Which I would say is a mistake
mystic ermine
They've even gone back to add extra protected status'es to it
bible does say no gay marriage
near glen
The would argue that the constitution is to holy to be touched and thus way too outdated
mystic ermine
Not exactly true
People are open to amending the constitution
The issue is getting the agreements needed for it
near glen
Amending is different than changing
mystic ermine
amending is changing
near glen
Because then you get a whole new level of interpretation
Does this amendment apply to this part of the constitution?
mystic ermine
You could create an amendment which throws 2a out
Ofc, getting agreements to throw 2a out, glhf
mystic ermine
because that's not how it works
near glen
So you guys also comment out unused code in your java projects in case you need it again?
mystic ermine
You're talking about a country where getting any form of change done is really horrific to do
Nobody here is saying that it's smart
near glen
Commit history would mean it's purged from current consitution but you can always go back and look at older versions to bring stuff back
mystic ermine
The issue with rewriting the consistition for each change is that it's open for abuse
a comma here, a comma there
near glen
Idk, I just don't see the US being prepared for the challenges of the new decades
Because of these systematic issues
mystic ermine
The issue is that change generally tends to affect one party more than the other
near glen
The issue with rewriting the consistition for each change is that it's open for abuse
@mystic ermine that's why you make sure it can't easily be changed, can only be changed if the whole country agrees
mystic ermine
You have to remember that this shit was done before the invention of computers
near glen
The issue is that change generally tends to affect one party more than the other
@mystic ermine the issue is that they make change about parties to begin with
mystic ermine
before photocopying and document editing was a thing...
near glen
Which brings me back to the heavily outdated point ^^
near glen
That's sad
near glen
It's an issue for ppl who want to encourage change and progress
mystic ermine
The constitution was never designed to be some huge big fuck-off document
Its more about restricting government than anything else
near glen
Idk, I think the next decade will be really challenging
And you need a system that is mobile to be able to adopt to that change
Anyways, am off to food
mystic ermine
The issue is finding a system which actually works and represents people fairly
Nobody can agree on how to do that
near glen
Do they agree that the current one doesn't?
mystic ermine
No
Well, yea
The entire issue goes back to the whole "fixing it upsets one party more than the other"
near glen
Well, you want more than two parties, so you gotta hurt both parties 😂
mystic ermine
Well, yea, but when you have people who's whole identity/career is their party
near glen
Does that legitimate it?
mystic ermine
There's more than 2 parties in the house
Nothing prevents there being more than one party in the house
Well, bar the fact that they've gotta get the votes for that
mystic ermine
as I said, nothing prevents it bar the whole "getting past the line"
mystic ermine
Repubs vote repubs, dems vote for dems (Well, this year is an extra fuckup on both of those potentially)
The issue is, how do you get a 3rd party in?
plush crypt
mystic ermine
Well, you vote for them, but, that means that you can't vote for one of the two parties
Which, if you're of the orange man bad team, voting for anybody but the DNC is deserving of a lynching
near glen
In the US you can only win with tactical voting
You don't vote for what you want as against what you don't want
mystic ermine
That's more on the people than on the system, really, imho
near glen
literally people will stop being your friend IRL if you vote for someone other than a dem
@autumn lotus to be fair, I would have issues with a friend of mine voting right wing, but not for which party he voted but for the mindset the person needs to have to vote that way
Well for presential election that's 100% to blame on the system
Because everything that doesn't win majority in your district just gets discarded
mystic ermine
We have the same stuff in the UK
near glen
Like if the vote never happened
mystic ermine
If you vote for a tory, you're viable to be thrown out of your friend group, etc
plush crypt
that's a common thing everywhere i'd say
near glen
In Germany you vote for a person and a party. And we have a list, the more percentage a party gets, the more ppl they get to send from their list
mystic ermine
The issue is that while that's a thing, you're fucked
plush crypt
i've stopped talking w folks who vote the capitalist party (read: racist party; there is a decent capitalist party, the conservatives, too)
mystic ermine
I mean, the only real way to fix that in the US would be to basically get rid of state representation
as I said, compare the EU to the US
near glen
i've stopped talking w folks who vote the capitalist party (read: racist party; there is a decent capitalist party, the conservatives, too)
@plush crypt but if they vote for that party, they got the same mindset, you so really stop.contsct because of their mindset, right?
mystic ermine
No
plush crypt
yep
mystic ermine
"same mindset" is farce
You vote on policy, sometimes the people pushing for that policy are total arsehats
plush crypt
i do have friends who vote the conservatives, because the parties' views are pretty much identical except for the whole racism part
mystic ermine
We don't even have a conservative party anymore 😦
near glen
If somebody votes from trump because he says "he's different, he's gonna change the country" whatever, that's fine by me. If be votes from trump because "fuck the Mexicans" that would be an issue for me and I would stop talking to them
mystic ermine
I mean, I support the nature of a border wall
mystic ermine
at what point is killing a child murder?
That's basically a fair chunk of the argument in a sense
mystic ermine
There is no limitation in the US last I knew
near glen
which is an issue
again, black and right view on stuff
you are either against or for something, there is no middle ground
plush crypt
it's ordinarily 12 weeks here; you can apply up to 18 i believe (only granted in edge-cases such as ||rape/sexual assault||, incredible poverty, etc.)
mystic ermine
I think many people who are sterotypically considered to be purely anti-abortion, would be much more open to term limits vs leaving it as open as it is
near glen
because party 1 says yes, party 2 has to say no
mystic ermine
federally, there are no limits
It's down to individual states to impose limits
The issue is generally that it's a 50:50 split against what people want
the entire nature of "meeting in the middle" is practically a comical joke these days
stimulus bill wen
near glen
like most is under 10 weeks, like come on, there is nothing you can call life there
would be an inch in size
no
you can make anything live in a machine
smoky hedge
That only "fixes" the cases where it would harm the mother though
There are many other reasons for abortions to happen
near glen
there are so many reasons to do an abortion
mystic ermine
There is going to be no solution that people fully agree on here
The issue is that nobody is really willing to meet in the middle
near glen
nobody here really has an issue with our system
smoky hedge
Anyone who says that babies should just be delivered and put into the adoption/foster system has never seen people who've gone through a countries foster system 😛
mystic ermine
one party basically acts like it should always be illegal, the other party basically thinks that it should essentially always be legal
near glen
in germany the only ppl against abortions are the same ppl that say the holocaust didint happen
so theres that
does something like that exist?
I am all for better prevention
smoky hedge
Yeah birth control is very much not something you can force
It impacts some people very very majorly
And also isn't perfectly reliable
near glen
we dont have good solutions for birth control
a friend of mine had an abortion, she took the pill and her bf at the time used a condom
and the pill itself is pretty horrible anyways
smoky hedge
To be fair condoms are a fairly decent form of birth control - because generally if you check you'll be aware of whether it succeeded or not
near glen
the only good birth control would be a vasectomy, but thats not easily reversible
mystic ermine
It's not perfect
near glen
thats still hormones
mystic ermine
99% effective
near glen
thats just an implanted pill basically
smoky hedge
Yeah hormonal birth control is not good at all for many people
near glen
with all of the sideeffects of the hormonal bullshit
mystic ermine
yea
near glen
its for lazy ppl basically 😄
smoky hedge
people at your university just tell everyone what birth control they are on?
near glen
well, if you have sex you better talk about that, lol
smoky hedge
I mean I'm asexual so unsure about general sex etiquette, was more confused by the "so many at my university" part 😛
But yeah that's fair
near glen
of course thats a reddit
smoky hedge
Even if it were 100% effective (which hormonal birth control isn't), it still doesn't discount the side effects
near glen
the implants have more issues too
they have to be inserted correctly, which sometimes fails
and they have to be removed again savely, which is easy in most cases but there have been reported complications before
foggy fern
plush crypt
the very specific quote references the following by the way: https://recklessandgorgeous.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/arbeit-macht-frei.jpg (Auschwitz-Birkenau gate; German for "Work sets you free" - a reminder to imprisoned jews)
foggy fern
It sounds like these two created a fake group (alpha freedom friends) and got him to record a message for it
Not clear if they wrote the message or he did
blazing junco
I think regardless of it being a request one would recognize "work sets you free" not being a very good thing to say
quartz dock
keeping texas red i see
quartz dock
Yes, the bus is in between the lanes
shut vine
I mean, as long as they do that with all gatherings that block streets including peaceful protests sounds good to me. Otherwise maybe we should wait until they're violent or rioting.
I'm more inclined to say wait for violence or rioting in all situations of mass gatherings.
plush crypt
First response should always be trying to peacefully get them off with your authority as a police officer; if that doesn't work, arrests are fine unless they act with violence
opal moat
Waiting for the tear gas, pepper spray, and batons to clear them out of the street
They don't tear gas colleagues
near glen
🍿
dusky raft
I dont know why they were banned in the first place as it made no sense
near glen
Maybe somebody had a bad day and liked to press red buttons
shut vine
NyPost was "technically" unbanned from Twitter a day or two after the post, just they would not be able to post until they deleted the original Tweet (losing all the traction it got).
Also many people who posted the actual article were insta-banned.
They explained it initially as they thought it was Russian misinformation, they later revised their reason to it being hacked material, then that it was possibly hacked material, to it no longer matching any criteria to delete it.
They testified to the Senate that it was a mistake to have ever deleted/banned/etc.
Also the news was saying polling showing Texas may go to Biden, though Trump outperformed polls in many states by over 5% last year.
near glen
🍿 intensifies
shut vine
I think it would be interesting to see many historically Republican states go to Democrats, and historically Democrats go to Republicans
It would highlight the absurd nature of this election cycle
I'm also curious about why he outperforms the polls so much. To me it's either the pollsters are trying to influence the election themselves or the "secret" Trump voters. But there are probably other theories.
opaque prairie
i mean we dont if he will outperform polls this year
we are basing that off one election cycle
but yeah it is interesting i do agree
near glen
I just hope that america is prepared for another 4 years with this clown
And that there is anything left to rebuild after that
Maybe the US will finally do something against corona, now that you seem to be trying to find the peak of the 3rd wave
shut vine
Of course we don't know, but that's why the cause of the outperformance is important. If it's the secret voters, it makes sense he will again this year.
opaque prairie
yeah
i mean looking at the midterms make me think it wont happen as much again
but no way to know
shut vine
Yeah, also this election is going to be the least predictable in history in my honest opinion.
SARS-CoV-2 is going to make a huge mess of it, both to voter turnout and the mail in voting fiasco.
opaque prairie
agreed... possible we see the largest turnout in a while
i meanlook at texas voting numbers
also imagine thinking us fed govt is doing something in response to corona 
shut vine
Yeah there are apparently 2 million additional registered voters to last year? That's 7% of the population.
opaque prairie
crazy. they also beat the total number of votes last week in early voting
shut vine
Well, realistically the state governments have most of the control in the response that's going to make a difference.
opaque prairie
yeah, states have been eating most of the covid related stuff, fed gov could def help out a lot more lol
shut vine
It's a lot better result with COVID than with H1N1 too, the pandemic response measures in the US have got a lot better.
If we the US didn't have H1N1 issues that it did the likely result would be 30 times worse.
opaque prairie
they have gotten better, but they still could be significantly better than they have been
shut vine
Also lucky that H1N1 turned out way less deadly than initially thought.
Oh yeah I agree.
opaque prairie
i gotta go take a job thingy, i'll happily continue this convo after
shut vine
I think that executive has a lot to answer for, particularly the medical advisors.
Good luck
opaque prairie
well that gave me a headache lmao
drifting arch
ah this aint my first time but its my first time voting early
cuz i wanna make sure my shit gets counted
opaque prairie
ah yeah. wasnt old enough for the midterms so, first time for me
yes good call. i had to use a mail in cause i am at college, but i am also in ny so like... not too worried about a flip, and they count ballots postmarked before the election no matter when they arrive
drifting arch
we keep getting ppl breaking into dropboxes and shit here, i dont trust the usps to handle this at all
they cant even deliver packages properly
mystic ermine
I mean, that's the joys of USPS
People where knocking people saying that mail in was gonna be totally ass this year, and it's like, how often do we hear "oh, they found sole ballots in the back corner", and how many people do you think would follow the joyous, "put $500 in an envelope and mail it to yourself if you trust them that much", how many people do you think would fear that it makes a disappearance?
I mean, royal mail over here is likely several times better than USPS, and it's literally been taking like 10 days to get some first class stuff through the mail, not to mention it's crazy with all the home 'rona orders
shut vine
There is the additional factor that the US government hasn't done mail in ballots at this volume ever.
dusky raft
nevermind each state has its own standard
and plus the fact that some states had both absentee and universal mail in
shut vine
There was a lot of complaining about local elections and mail in ballots in Feb/March or so this year too.
dusky raft
that also
shut vine
Mainly massive amounts of lost ballots/fraudulent ballots etc.
dusky raft
im not saying that mail in is utter dog shit, but we had no checks in place for the majority of states
plus I think I heard some states are allowing mail postmarked after the 3rd?
which I think is insane
shut vine
Supreme Court made a ruling that all the mail in ballots must have arrived before the 3rd I think.
Yeah with the exception of a few states, ballots must all be arrive by the 3rd.
bleak echo
wait @drifting arch you actually vote on election day?
dusky raft
reminds me, I need to buy some popcorn
and a large coke
because I know the media is going to make this a shitshow
bleak echo
i don't really get why anyone wouldn't do mail in... but then i've only voted in oregon or abroad, and both of those are all vote-by-mail
shut vine
I think mostly to ensure their vote is counted.
bleak echo
that's what the online ballot tracking is for?
you get the ballot, fill it out, mail it in or drop it at a library drop box, and they send you an email or text once it's processed
shut vine
Yeah I'd probably do the same, vote by mail, if it doesn't show up online vote in person.
dusky raft
invalidate if it does appear in the mail when voted in person
shut vine
As long as it tells you who it counted your vote against anyway.
bleak echo
....
a whole key feature of the US voting system is there's no way to prove which way you voted
bleak echo
how so?
shut vine
Yeah, see, I'd vote in person then.
bleak echo
it's to prevent you from being coerced to vote for one candidate
dusky raft
So how do we prevent double dipping like mail in ballot then vote in person?
shut vine
That kind of thing is a double edged sword in this situation I think.
bleak echo
you have an outer envelope with your voter info
then an inner envelope with the ballot
so you take the outer envelope to determine if the ballot is valid, then it's separated from the inner envelope before counting happens
dusky raft
What I should mean to say is that there should be a voter roll
not part of the actual ballot
if voter role says you went in person
invalidate mail in ballot if it appears
bleak echo
ya that already happens... maybe not on election night, but for the official count
shut vine
I'm wondering if anyone here received an invalid ballot? i.e. for a person who didn't live at that address.
foggy fern
If you have an absentee ballot out there you can only do a provisional ballot in person
shut vine
Yeah, that makes sense.
foggy fern
Depending on the state they either hold on to it until your absentee ballot goes past the deadline or they only count it after they're able to mark it in the system so your absentee ballot gets destroyed if it arrives later
shut vine
You can't have your vote counted twice.
drifting arch
I don't trust the usps to handle it. I've had enough issues with them just delivering normal mail and packages.
I just don't trust it. Call me weird
Tinfoil hat firmly strapped
Anyway vote is in
shut vine
Yeah, mailed ballots got lost in the 10's of thousands in the first half of the year.
foggy fern
USPS could have handled it if you mailed it in a couple weeks ago but obviously it's too late now
Even if your state allows the ballots to come in later so long as they're postmarked I wouldn't trust the Supreme Court to let that actually happen if your state matters for Trump getting elected...
shut vine
That's already happening, pre-ACB btw
foggy fern
Supreme Court has decided to start using Bush v Gore as precedent even though the majority opinion said "never use this as precedent"
shut vine
Well I definitely agree it should not be used as a precedent. I think from memory the Bush vs Gore situation is based on counties counting ballots differently and the Equal Protection Clause.
That situation is unlikely to happen again, if it does it's probably needs the SCOTUS to adjudicate it again.
foggy fern
They're using it as precedent to give them more of a say in how voting works in states
shut vine
Give who a say?
foggy fern
So we lost the Voting Rights Act which actually gave the federal government some oversight of such things and instead the Supreme Court just invented a new power for themselves
dusky raft
I wish we didnt use the supreme court as another unofficial way to push pseudo-laws
shut vine
Yeah, supreme court should only decide if a law/judicial decision is constitutional or not.
foggy fern
Before unless it violated the Constitution the Supreme Court basically had no say in it, using Bush v Gore as precedent lets them put their finger on the scales
shut vine
The Bush v Gore was an inconsequential decision realistically, don't see why it should be a precedent case.
There is plenty of time for SCOTUS to take up a case like it if it ever occurs again.
shut vine
So interesting situation with Dorsey the CEO of Twitter, at the time he said the article was unblocked (under oath, before the Senate), it was not. i.e. you could not post a link to it. Thus it was a lie, and technically perjury.
near glen
We addressed the "US isn't doing anything" claim like 3 days ago.
@viscid saffron I haven't said they don't do anything there, I said they need to do something effective, which clearly the currently don't do, looking at the numbers
drifting arch
god i fucking hope biden wins
near glen
@oak cloak let's continue that here
Had the US only two parties from the begging?
Beginning?
oak cloak
no
I've donated well over $5000 at this point to biden and other dem campaigns
I'm terrified to think what will happen if we lose again
and leftists and progressives love losing
near glen
That's another thing, ppl here don't donate to parties
Gov funds the campaigns of all parties
Based on how many votes they got last year or smth
oak cloak
conservatives are perfectly happy to vote for the devil if it means they can win. progressives don't understand that you have to win first, before you can start making things better
oak cloak
I see so much talk on progressive twitter about people who are refusing to vote biden because he's not progressive and like, god damn they're so stupid it hurts
the US originally started with no parties
the first president begged for them to not create parties
oak cloak
the parties that originally were created are not the same parties we have now
you always vote for people
parties are not a recognized part of the US government's constitution
in the early days there was even a 4-way presidential election and no one won
near glen
In Germany we have two systems, you vote for representatives from your district, and you vote for a party. That means you have two votes, and the party nominates a list of representatives and they all go into parliment based on percentage of party votes
oak cloak
yeah, the US's voting system is very easily gerrymandered and manipulated
and the electoral college, a system designed to alleviate the issue of having a country that spanned the continent back in a time when it took weeks to go from one coast to another, extremely disproportionately represents votes
shut vine
Well realistically Harris is one of the most progressive Senator's that have served, and she's likely to end up being President if Biden wins.
oak cloak
obligatory explanation video: https://youtu.be/7wC42HgLA4k
the electoral college at this point has been weaponized by the republican party, since it so extremely disproportionately represents votes for president
shut vine
Yeah the electoral college is stupid, there are literally members that do not vote for who they were commissioned to vote for too.
oak cloak
that's also true for the senate itself, which was created for the explicit purpose of being disproportionate
because when the US was formed it was essentially an agreement between 13 mostly-sovereign nations whose individual government leaders didn't want to give up power to the other states
because of that - and only because of that - the senate treats states equally reqgardless of population
and less densely populated states tend to be more rural, and the more rural areas tend to be more conservative
so therefore it essentially acts as a system which gives conservative ideas more representation in government than actually exists
which also helps those ideas grow and spread more, so it's a self-propagating system
it's largely why the US political landscape looks how it does today
near glen
Which is why I always say, the constitution needs reforms
shut vine
I mean, any system will do that last part probably.
oak cloak
the constitution does need reforms, and we've done it 27 times. So it shouldn't be that absurd to suggest we do it again
near glen
In Germany, we were "lucky" enough to have gone thru 3 different consitutions in the last 100 years
oak cloak
but we've come to a point politically where ammending the constituation is nearly impossible
near glen
Each one aiming to fix issues in the first tries
shut vine
Ideas change as people discuss ideas, so if you silence one opinion, or disproportionately show a singular viewpoint, people are more likely to spread the ideas.
oak cloak
and a large portion of the population is legitimately brainwashed by conservative propaganda, so there's not overwhelming voter support for this stuff either
shut vine
I mean, both sides do their fair share of brainwashing.
near glen
I always laught when I hear that creationism is thought in schools
Like how much more brain washing can you do?
shut vine
At some point people have to become adults, and think for themselves.
oak cloak
don't both-sides this bullshit
shut vine
It's the most important thing to teach young adults.
oak cloak
teaching religious ideas as science is not "both sides"
and one side pushing to make it easier to vote while the other wants as few people as possible to vote is not "both sides"
oak cloak
The whole creationism thing blows my mind too. I grew up in southern conservative state and didn't see any of that shit. evolution was taught in biology and creationism never came up
near glen
Religion is conservative propaganda to some extent
oak cloak
what brainwashing are progressives spreading, exactly?
shut vine
Yeah but that's just part of it, and to argue that there is only one group doing brainwashing is dishonest or incredibly biased.
Identity politics is the most common form of it, though I suppose that can be separated into individual areas if you want. It's heavily pushed in Universities.
It's a naturally divisive and hateful ideology.
oak cloak
progressives are better supported through ciritical thinking and factual arguments. conservatives can't win in these kinds of arguments so they go for emotional arguments centered around making people angry at other people.
Brainwashing is specifically the act of making someone believe something which isn't true to such a degree that it is almost impossible to convince them otherwise, regardless of proof.
progressives run on factual arguments and critical thinking, so providing proof is the argument itself. I don't understand how that is brainwashing
near glen
Is identity politics about lgbtq stuff?
oak cloak
identity politics is like saying "more police should be women" instead of realizing that the institution of police is the problem to begin with
shut vine
It's the whole "this group of people are the cause of all the problems" sentiment, that's currently going around for rich people, white people, etc.
Men.
oak cloak
and it's generally not something that I see argued that much? I mostly only see it mocked
near glen
If you believe that everyone who votes for progressive is able to critical think you are in for a surprise, lol
Ppl like to follow, on both sides. But one side does so with arguments and facts and the other with brainwashing
shut vine
To argue everyone who's conservative believes in religion is also incorrect.
near glen
Ah that's fair then
shut vine
So the premise is faulty.
oak cloak
rich white men are absolutely the cause of our problems lol. It's incorrect to say that all rich white men are, but that's not really an important distinction
shut vine
That's what they said about the Jewish people.
oak cloak
ah yes
near glen
It's the whole "this group of people are the cause of all the problems" sentiment, that's currently going around for rich people, white people, etc.
@shut vine so trump's "mexicans bad" is part of that?
Or is that just normal racism?
shut vine
If he said that then yes.
oak cloak
the small group of the most powerful people in the world are just like the jewish people
shut vine
I've seen a few about MS13 etc
oak cloak
or something like that
near glen
Poor jews, what have they done to us that they always get blamed?
oak cloak
blaming the state of the world on the people who have the power and are the ones who make the decisions which have put us in said state of the world is not unreasonable
shut vine
But the idea that all the problems are caused by rich white people is absurd. There is no basis for that argument and it's just going to divide people. Rather than arguing about the identity of people argue about the actions of the individual.
To deny there are issues with the current system is also absurd.
near glen
I mean, arguing that missing diversity is a problem is fine tho
oak cloak
Yeah it's not a binary thing
shut vine
What do you mean Mini?
near glen
Underrepresentation of "minorities" like woman or blacks or whatever in companies and politics
oak cloak
pointing out that the distribution of identities in the government does not fairly represent the people is a completely fair and reasonable argument to make in a government that is supposed to represent the people
shut vine
Yeah true, but we shouldn't just vote someone in based on their skin color, or organs.
oak cloak
I'm certainly not making the argument, and I don't know other who are, that the issue is rich white people being rich white people
shut vine
Well how about this.
oak cloak
The issue is that the people who are in power currently and writing these laws and making these decisions THOSE people are almost entirely rich white people
shut vine
Can we agree that the government should avoid indoctrinating children into ideological things like religion and identity politics etc?
near glen
Yeah true, but we shouldn't just vote someone in based on their skin color, or organs.
@shut vine for voting, I think I actually disagree. You want somebody to represent you. The best representatives for you have a similar background, had similar experiences to you. I can totally understand that a black woman doesn't feel representated by a old white man
shut vine
Wouldn't that just be arguing the emotional point rather than a logical one?
Because realistically not everyone can be represented.
near glen
The logical best representation for you is somebody who grew up in the same neighborhood as you
shut vine
Yeah I agree.
near glen
You can at least try to represent every group of citizens fairly
oak cloak
I don't know if that is even the same argument. People should vote on who they feel best represented by. That person has political opinions which can be debated. 2 separate things
near glen
It will never be perfect, sure, but right now it's biased against many minorites
oak cloak
But again it's not just one or the other. When I look at the US government and see all of these rich white men, yeah that doesn't make me very happy to see. I can also point out their very long list of bad politics and corruption.
shut vine
I'm somewhat against the idea of having to have someone of your race represent you, mainly because it suggests the people of that race all have the same ideas.
near glen
So you just don't represent those ppl at all?
oak cloak
but replacing a white man with another white man doesn't do very much to fix that imbalance of representation. So there's no problem with preferring a minority who is mostly aligned with you politically to replace them over another white man who is mostly aligned with you politically
shut vine
I think it's a fairly difficult problem. I mean, using a popular vote system is similar to my ideas really.. the most popular politicians are the ones elected, regardless of race.
I don't know how you make certain minorities feel represented without also disenfranchising the majority.
oak cloak
And we should have automatic voter registration and automatic mail-in ballots sent without requiring a notary and the postal service shouldn't have its infrastructure ripped out from under it in an attempt to disrupt voting by mail and...
the majority will never be disenfranchised
that's a fallocy if I've ever heard one
it's the majority
shut vine
Which fallacy?
oak cloak
also in this particular instance the majority is white people who have been on the oppression side of everything for the entire history of the world
No, there's no disenfranchisement here and no one is losing any power
shut vine
Also we're talking about feelings, people will feel disenfranchised weather they are or not is another question. Currently some people in certain minorities feel that way.
Can we either talk about feelings or solid actualities?
near glen
Feelings are important
oak cloak
Okay sure, racists feel bad when black people are elected, true
racists are the primary reason trump is in power right now, however
near glen
Racisms and religious extremists (which, thinking about it, is prolly the same)
shut vine
I actually think the reason he's in power is more to do with people being sick of the establishment.
oak cloak
unless you know of a group of non-racist people who are okay with all of the racism wrapped up in trump and his campaign and everyone he's related to
shut vine
There's probably an element of racists that helped him along the way.
oak cloak
the people "sick of the establishment" - what was the establishment before trump?
That's an excuse
shut vine
The military industrial complex, I'm not saying he's not of the establishment.
oak cloak
considering how much more corrupt the government has become under trump and how perfectly happy his supporters are with that
near glen
Well, it that's the case, those ppl should know better now and reconsider this time around
shut vine
I'm saying people believed that he wasn't.
near glen
"hey let's try smth different, oh shit its so much worse, let's not do that again"
shut vine
Well, the problem with politics and the hoi polloi is they get emotional about their "pick". Generally a person who votes for one politician will never want to admit they are wrong.
near glen
I do agree that trump is different and we have such phaenomes here too, ppl voting for radicals since they are different, but that mostly means different to democracy and a functional society
oak cloak
My parents voted for trump because fox news and republicans told them to. My dad admitted as much. They are also voting for trump again for the same reason. They certainly don't think of themselves as racist and don't have any issues with black people individually that they interact with, but if the actions of Trump against black and latino and other people of color hasn't changed their mind then there is no argument about it, they are racist
shut vine
Yeah, a lot of people vote like that. Those are the people I do not think should vote usually.
oak cloak
I generally would prefer if older people in general didn't vote
near glen
If you follow a rasicst and look around and everybody around you is a rasicst, chances are you are a rasicst too, or at least tolerate racists
shut vine
Specifically those who cannot justify their choice based on investigating both sides.
They just follow what news and friends tells them.
oak cloak
lol I remember when conservatives were justifying swastikas at some rally and they were like "there were only 1 or 2"
The number of acceptable nazi symbols in any rally is 0
oak cloak
I'm scared to see what happens tuesday, but I don't know what you're referring to
shut vine
Also I think we can agree just because you're conservative/progressive that you don't subscribe to all of their ideas?
near glen
It's a big problem here now, ppl arguing against some corona measures get mixed with nazis in protests. The acceptable number of racists at a demo is 0. You need to distance yourself from them if you want ppl to hear your arguments.
shut vine
Uh there have been lots of riots in the US since like June. Also there are people who are planning to riot on the 3rd regardless of who wins, allegedly they are "progressive". But the news is so dishonest lately.
oak cloak
I know of no such progressive riots
shut vine
Also I would say they probably don't represent the majority of progressives even if they are progressive.
near glen
That's something deeply american, thinking in sides, you have to follow all points of your party
Well, there are idiots everywhere, it just depends on how you deal with idiots. Do you legitimate them or do you distance yourself from them
shut vine
Well, using violence, looting, vandalism. Can we agree those are not part of a MLK approved protest?
oak cloak
I believe if you vote for someone you must take responsibility for their worst policies. If you can't justify it then you shouldn't be voting for them. If you are justifying voter suppression or the removal of rights of people, that is indefensible
no we cannot agree
MLK is very much misunderstood
in that regard by white people
shut vine
So you feel using violence, vandalism, or looting is part of a peaceful protest?
shut vine
Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding.
near glen
Meh demon, voting is a compromise. You will never agree with all policies and somebody you gotta choose the lesser evil, even if you hate their worst policy
shut vine
How would you interpret that?
near glen
What does begets mean?
shut vine
Second paragraph reads:
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate. In fact, violence merely increases hate. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
oak cloak
This breaks it down pretty well https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/status/1270076281040797699
Twitter
Much better than I ever could (he's also an expert on the subject while I am not)
@near glen I agree, but there are limits imo
Taking away human rights is one of those limits
near glen
Oh of course
shut vine
So should violence, looting, or vandalism be allowed with protesting, or not allowed? Or a mixture of them?
Interested in both of your opinions.
shut vine
I can agree with that. What about vandalism?
near glen
Am too lazy it type it all out
shut vine
Of private property, though I still think in the instance of government property it's highly questionable.
Oh you mean all of those.
near glen
I mean all of your points
shut vine
Okay
near glen
Am on mobile
shut vine
Yeah no worries, was just not wanting to assume your position.
Also I agree. Doesn't matter which side does it.
Also honestly, the actions of those who support a particular candidate should rarely reflect on that candidate either.
I can see why in Trumps case under some circumstances that wouldn't apply.
near glen
It depends what the candidate does about them
If he says stand back and stand by instead of condemning their actions, that's worrying
shut vine
Oh I agree, when I heard that I was a bit shocked. I believe it was just a gaffe.
He's denounced them over and over again prior to that incident.
near glen
Not sure I agree with that
shut vine
He was intending to say stand down I believe.
It was the correction offered the same night I think, and the following day.
oak cloak
sorry was away
going to go to sleep, I've already guaranteed tomorrow will be awful with how late I've stayed up.
In terms of violence, I care more about lives than property
protests don't become violent by themselves though
police escalate
shut vine
Sleep well, and you should take care to sleep properly
oak cloak
Happens every time
and no, I don't have an issue with protestors responding violently to the violent actions of police. "looters" are not protestors, so not very relevant for that discussion
shut vine
Well when a protest group begins to loot, does that not reflect on the protesters?
oak cloak
weird strawman argument
when chaos breaks out there will always be people who take advantage of that for themselves
shut vine
It's not a strawman, it's a question..
oak cloak
that's not anything to do with protests or anything like that
same shit happens in natural disasters
shut vine
How does it happening in other situations exclude it from being a problem in this specific situation?
oak cloak
also when the protestors are protesting police brutality and the police are attacking them, I'm going to focus on that. Rather than focusing on the rather rare instances of looting that happens occasionally, and is entirely disconnected from the protests that are actually happening
shut vine
If a group of "protesters" starts to loot, is that a protest or is it a riot?
oak cloak
it's irrelevant is what it is
and also not common at all
trying to stear the focus on the looting is nothing more than a tactic to move the conversation away from what the protests are actually about
it's a tactic as old as the civil rights movement
shut vine
Okay so if a group of once peaceful protesters, start to commit illegal acts, that doesn't reflect on the protesters, they're completely separate?
oak cloak
probably older
depends on the illegal acts? That's such a broad and open question it has no actual meaning
Please, I beg you, instead of just asking me questions, please give me your argument on the matter
shut vine
How is one illegal act irrelevant to the protest and another is relevant?
My argument is protesters should not be violent, vandalize, or loot.
oak cloak
So when they are protesting and the police are attacking them for protesting, what should they do?
Also when the thing they are protesting for is rights which they do not have, so therefore the protest is illegal, what should they do?
shut vine
They cease to be protesters then, they become rioters; and any protester that protects those individuals from being arrested, is also rioting.
oak cloak
So all the police have to do to deligitamize a protest is attack them
Seems a bit unfair but that is the tactic they have used up until this point
up until this point including history going back into the civil rights movement and before
goes all the way back to when US police were originally created as slave catchers, actually
shut vine
So the issue I have with your stance is, that if a police officer does use violence to stop protests without cause, and a protester responds in kind, it's a LOT easier for the police to defend their actions with "look they were violent".
I don't agree police should be violent, or that it's okay to defend themselves though.
Er, let me reword that
I don't think it's wrong for someone who's being attacked by police to defend themselves with violence, I just think it's ill advised.
oak cloak
That seems like a nice sentiment in an ideal world maybe
shut vine
Also police who do step over that line illegally should be prosecuted.
oak cloak
But the reality is protests which are dispersed as soon as police want them to disperse never happen
and those protests which never happen don't get any attention
and those protests which don't get any attention don't change anything
shut vine
I agree, as I said, my point is not about the legitimacy of defending yourself.
Yeah I also agree that protests should be a protected right.
oak cloak
The police is a broken system in itself and needs to be entirely replaced, but yeah
shut vine
Yeah, well unions in general are a problem.
oak cloak
Uh you don't mean labor unions right
labor unions are the only reason workers' rights exist
shut vine
I mean unions in general, including police unions.
oak cloak
the police union is not the issue with police. It's the system itself
shut vine
That really should be replaced by laws.
Also I think the idea of defunding them is fundamentally wrong, they need more funding - make sure every officer is wearing and recording on a bodycam at all times.. and instead of giving them hummers and APC's, give them all tasers and pepper spray.
I mean, SWAT it makes sense, but regular police forces it's absurd.
oak cloak
But one last point on the matter, civil disobeience during the civil rights movement, often lead by MLK, was the intentional act of breaking the law. That's why it was effective at all to begin with. The law is not a moral compass and not what I use to judge whether something is right or wrong.
They don't need more funding, they need to be disbanded entirely. Police patrols don't make anyone safer and never have. A separate, much more limited institution should be created for handling violent crime
oak cloak
But I really do need to go to sleep, so I'll leave it at that. I'll read your response on my phone though
shut vine
Yeah, sleep well
That's the primary purpose of police, and the purpose of police patrols is to deter violent crimes. I think disbanding the police, at least before having a replacement system functioning, is path to ruin.
Also just because they're not called police does not mean they will not act the way the people who used to be called police were acting.
However I can't see the harm in the states that want that to happen to be the guinea pigs for what that may look like.
foggy fern
brisk cradle
So, um, this apparently exists and I have so many questions https://kotaku.com/joe-biden-has-a-fortnite-island-now-1845539140
My response
weary lake
tf
stable sable
idk
honestly i think they should be doing this shit bc its basically free advertisement
near glen
Tux, fortnite has a creative mode where you share island with others
brisk cradle
I know.
Still doesn't change my opinion.
If anything I think this is a bit generous to Biden!
I live in GA and never in a million years would I think that a Democrat would have a serious shot at winning it.
But I think they're spot on showing that Florida and Ohio are now becoming more-or-less GOP-friendly states.
Still, I think Arizona is probably a better shot for Biden than Georgia.
I think there's solid evidence of a Trump spike now, if only because he has nowhere to go but up.
Tux's totally unscientific 2020 map
opaque prairie
seems a reasonable map in my opinion
brisk cradle
I give the entire Southeast to Trump, Biden wins by a small margin in WI, MI, and PA and wins AZ.
opaque prairie
i think Florida and Georgia are decided by less than 1k votes
brisk cradle
I think they're decided by less than 1 point.
Not 1k votes but less than 1 point for sure.
Arizona is probably decided by less than 1 point too, but I think Dems are stronger there.
opaque prairie
PA i am confident should be biden, but there seems to be rumors of shenagians
brisk cradle
AZ is probably more like a 3-point one than a 1-point.
opaque prairie
sounds plausible
i feel like a lot more states are going to be closer than expecte
makes me nervous about shenanigans
weary obsidian
man ill be ecscatic if north carolina actually ends up blue, but i really doubt it
I live in a blue county/hotspot, and trump signs is still everywhere
near glen
because thats an indicator of who will win, lol
spiral basin
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-election-trump-biden-donors/
This is very interesting
dusky raft
yeah
I find it odd how I hear from biden supporters that trump supports big business when they give more money to biden
or big business supports trump
when its not the case
upper steppe
Tbh, I'm shocked biden is even in the race at all. Wasn't he found senile or something?
dusky raft
hes something
hes just being propped up because hes not trump
thats litterally his main selling point
hes not trump
upper steppe
Sad
mystic ermine
I mean, current understanding is that he's not the real elect, Kamala is
dusky raft
I would have loved to seen the debates with sanders than biden
at least thats some real competition between ideas
plus ive havent seen people say they like biden because of his positions (which seems to change depending on which state hes in, or when hes zoned the fuck out), its just because hes not trump
dusky raft
ive got the popcorn and soda for tomorrow night
its going to be a shitshow either way
the media is going to be gushing all over biden tomorrow on how he will lead america into some unknown light that might just be a lightbulb in a dark tunnel
spiral basin
Lots of silent folk voting trump tomorrow, like me
Are ya really silent anymore lmao
mystic ermine
In terms of polling and public life, I'd imagine so
spiral basin
Well IRL yes
mystic ermine
I've been hearing statistics of like 20% of the people polled at trump rallies are registered democrats
spiral basin
All I'll say is there is enough data to drive someone insane
mystic ermine
Yea, throwing any of the data together is just gonna be total ass
spiral basin
Well I got my big-ass bottle of tea ready for tomorrow to watch everything unfold
near glen
this is a cool site I just found https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/
tough cedar
538 is pretty good
brisk cradle
Well, tomorrow a lot of people are going to be on edge.
near glen
I for one got my popcorn ready
brisk cradle
I mean, it's statistics. Even though Biden has, say, a 90% chance of winning, Trump still has a 10% chance, which is definitely non-zero.
near glen
because they calculate all possible combinations
tough cedar
right yes
of course trump could still win
they just gave trump more credit back in 2016
brisk cradle
I think Nate Silver attributed the Trump bullishness to undecided voters. Well, there are less undecided voters in 2020. I think coronavirus has made a lot of people make their minds up, and a lot of those people are unhappy with Trump.
there was a polling result floating around where Biden was 20 points up amongst people who knew someone who caught or died from COVID-19 (not sure which)
tough cedar
i mean it makes sense
brisk cradle
and I can believe that there is at least a kernel of truth in there
near glen
but trump did the best of his ability to fight corona!
sadly that doesn't mean much coming from him
brisk cradle
looks nervously at New Zealand
near glen
dont even need to look that far, almost everybody is doing better than you guys
tough cedar
idk that new zealand is a fair comparison but we could have definitely done better
brisk cradle
On the North American contient, Mexico and the US have had very bad responses
Canada's response was ok
near glen
lets see what our new lockdown in germany brings
we had almost 20k cases on one day last week
like, its bad
brisk cradle
I don't see the US response changing anytime soon. Even if Biden wins tomorrow he won't be able to do anything until January 20th
dusky raft
I dont think its fair to compare the US to just germany considering the size of population and density
I'd rather compare the whole EU to the US
near glen
I did not compare anything?
tough cedar
ya no comparison made
brisk cradle
And Trump is already planning to, if he doesn't steal the election or by a mere miracle manage to win another term "democratically", put his loyalists in place to sabotage any potential Biden administration response
near glen
I was just saying that we are doing bad right now and such need to go into lockdown for a few weeks again
whole bison
trump heavily put presure on countrys that bring terorist and distruction to the world like middle east countris like iran that want nuke weapons and trump achiv to block thier resarch on this kind of stuff but idk what biden will bring to this like of county'son table
brisk cradle
wat
whole bison
sorry
brisk cradle
Trump says a big game on Iran, but his actions have strengthened Iran because nobody trusts the US anymore
Even if Biden wins, that won't change much - at least not immediately.
dusky raft
But yeah, I dont think progressives are going to consider the election legitiment at all if trump wins
brisk cradle
The US may well have to acquisce to a nuclear-armed Iran
dusky raft
@brisk cradle I dont think so? We did kill one of their military higher ups
whole bison
you don't live in middle east like me to know this, but middle east county's specialy Iran don't want trump to be the next president, because he brought so many boycutt and lockout for them for it
I dont think so? We did kill one of their military higher ups
solimani
dusky raft
I'd rather not see a war with iran, that would make the situation even more fragile
considering how the last 15 years of bush/obama didnt improve things
brisk cradle
I'm quite frankly surprised that Trump hasn't gone to war with Iran yet
whole bison
solimani was one of the biggest generals out there for them
brisk cradle
Maybe he'll do that in January to leave Biden a "gift"
dusky raft
I dont think so, Trump has tried so hard not to push further into the middle east
brisk cradle
He populated his administration with Iraq war hawks like Bolton.
dusky raft
Bolton was a mistake, I will agree, also, wasnt he canned early on?
whole bison
distruction is here you can't believe waht soodi and us are doing in this place
brisk cradle
I am under no illusion that Biden is going to be my kind of guy.
tough cedar
i only voted for him to get trump out
dusky raft
Biden is just barely holding onto himself
tough cedar
and because i'd like to see texas turn blue because i like disorder
dusky raft
I have never heard people vote for biden because they like the man
brisk cradle
Biden is just barely holding onto himself
Actually, Biden has been pretty cogent. No word salad, he's holding on just fine.
dusky raft
wut?
brisk cradle
He is delivering on "no malarkey"
whole bison
Biden want piece but for us middle east pepole this is bad, we want to government like Iran to be gone and trump doing great at this
this country does not have anything more than terrorist, killing innocent and bring blood
and it's government need to be parished
dusky raft
We should just leave and just be the neutral party than just going in guns blazing
whole bison
this is true
dusky raft
The failure of iran was that we gave them an inch and they took a mile when it came to that nuclear deal
and europe still doesnt understand that
whole bison
sorry but f that who made the nuke weapon first place
shut vine
I mean the sanctions on Iran basically were too narrow, it allowed them to continue development on nuclear warhead delivery technologies like ICBM's etc.
As far as Trump and waring, he's been less inclined to go to war than any recent president, and actually seems to want to withdraw troops from active "endless" wars.
He has marginally dropped more bombs per day than Obama throughout his entire 2 terms, but less than his second term last I checked.
opaque prairie
the issue with nuclear warhead delivery tech is its very similar to rocket launching tech, and space is valuable i guess? i dont the us wanted to get in the game of restricting general space tech
shut vine
One of the key parts of his platform was the lets stop being the world police, not sure he's delivered on that, but he seems like maybe he's trying to.
Yeah I agree, don't want to be too restrictive. Just think Iran was trusted a bit too much.
dusky raft
We trusted iran way too much during the obama years
shut vine
He has also brokered what.. 3 historic peace deals between foreign nations?
dusky raft
considering iran's government has said death to america more times even when we brokered some nuclear power deal
they were waiting to bite the hand the fed them nuclear power
or more or less rip the hand off
Because I highly doubted they would be so willing to forego their nuclear weapons program
Much like North Korea
I dont think they bothered to dismantle what weapons they had but they did blow up an old facility
shut vine
A Sanders supporter sent me this the other day, I was actually shocked by it.
It's not particularly related to Iran
weary obsidian
@autumn lotus well re the biden signs, im sure a large portion are in the same boat as me, im not rocking a biden sign or bumper sticker, im rocking a Giant Meteor Shirt and added another Bernie bumper sticker just recently to car. Biden only got my vote to be against trump. Reallly rooting for him stepping down if he wins and let Harris take over.
so not gonna put up stuff supporting a person i dont really support
tough cedar
my god i hope he doesn't do that lol i didn't really like kamala during the vice presidential debate
weary obsidian
shes weak, but at least shes progressive and not biden
i could get behind her more than biden any day
mystic ermine
Not read it yet, but, https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8906505/Kamala-Harris-accused-peddling-communist-propaganda-tweeting-video-equality.html
weary obsidian
bloomberg would of the only person worse than biden we could have ended up with
remember right wingers call socialism communism
dusky raft
just because its democratic doesnt mean its right to just take someones stuff
weary obsidian
said by someone who has no clue what socialism is
you must be one of those people who think socialism and communism are same thing
dusky raft
if by socialism you mean higher taxes, then I dont know what you are talking about
weary obsidian
that video she shared was quite on point
yes we need higher a taxes, thats a given
(on the rich)
near glen
Socialism means distribution of wealth
Rich ppl fund the education of everyone for example
Or the healthcare
And I mean, socialism is a extremism I guess
weary obsidian
not ALL wealth though, thats where communism comes in. socialism doesnt mean everyone has same top end
near glen
Look at how modern societies in europe do it
dusky raft
then it should be capitalism with higher taxes, not socialism
near glen
They still are all capitalistic, but with social aspects
weary obsidian
socialism defines how the taxes should be spent, ensuring that social structure of the country is boosted
near glen
But americans often lead to extremes to make a point, that's why public health care is literal communism
weary obsidian
other countries failing to implement socialism doesnt define socialism. they just did it badly
mystic ermine
I mean, public health care is iffy anyways
weary obsidian
the video harris shared is a pretty damn great example of the difference here
mystic ermine
Not really sure that there is a country which has done a super amazing job of public health care
weary obsidian
the one guy was on a different level than the other, the rope only reached to the top level
mystic ermine
I mean, in the UK, you're safe knowing that if you break your leg, you're not 100% fucked
weary obsidian
socialism is bringing those levels up to equal, so both people have the POTENTIAL to climb that rope
if you dont climb it, yeah you stay at the bottom
mystic ermine
But, you're gonna be waiting in hospital for multiple hours before you're even looked at
near glen
You can always aim to be better, but I think we can all agree that americas system has huge issues
mystic ermine
Similar level of reports for places like canada, etc
dusky raft
also, unless you want to talk to bing+google+whatever dictionary, your socialism is not what they define
shut vine
Kamala has said some fairly authoritarian things too, i.e. when Biden criticized her gun legislation saying it didn't pass constitutional muster she said they'd just do it anyway.
weary obsidian
communism goes to the extreme of saying "ok im taking so much from the top and pushing everyone at the bottom up until everyone is equal"
mystic ermine
The fact that it's all managed by one large company almost tryna minimize costs, etc; it's crazy
Where does the money come from to boost the lower people?
dusky raft
This is the problem I have with socialists, they all have different ways of saying what socialism is without having a single standard of saying what they want
near glen
That's an issue with your implementation then, in Germany we got plenty companies as part of the public healthcare system
shut vine
Communism is Socialism at gunpoint.
dusky raft
which is how is usually ends up
mystic ermine
well, some aspects are contracted out, but, hospitals are all generally under the NHS trust thing
near glen
Yeah, racists are much easier to work with, they see somebody looking like a Mexican, they yell stop stealing our jobs! and go on with their days
dusky raft
I dont consider healthcare to be socialist, but a social program made by government
shut vine
I'm for a capitalist economy, with a socialist safety net.
weary obsidian
I just want critical services and access to education to all be fundamentally available to everyone and not based on wealth
dusky raft
@shut vine thats just called welfare
near glen
It's a spectrum
mystic ermine
ah, germany apparently spends more on it's health care than us
weary obsidian
then those who choose to not take the initiative, stay at the bottom
shut vine
Mostly yeah. But it has to be tax payer funded.
weary obsidian
ok so maybe that doesnt fully line up with the dictionary definition of it
dusky raft
@weary obsidian I think the US education system needs an overhaul that isnt based on industrial age thinking
mystic ermine
I wonder, how long do you generally tend to stick in A&E or whatever it is if you break a bone or something?
dusky raft
BUT, I dont think college should be free
mystic ermine
education systems around the world are fucked
near glen
That 100% depends on time and place cat
shut vine
US education and medical system needs an overhaul.
mystic ermine
Well, that's part of it here, break your leg on a sunday you can be in and hour in 2 hours
near glen
But waiting for an hour or so can happen here too if it's nothing serious
shut vine
They're probably the two biggest issues in the current US system.
mystic ermine
my brother busted his arm and spent like 6-8 hours before he was seen and out
weary obsidian
@dusky raft why not?
dusky raft
because public grade schools have failed us?
they dont teach for shit about the real world
near glen
Because they are underfunded
shut vine
School Choice MUST be a thing in my opinion.
dusky raft
that also
weary obsidian
due to lack of money, see: needing more taxes to fund it
dusky raft
I think school choice is a must
near glen
Education is literally one of the most important things of a country
shut vine
The current system is basically redlining for schools.
dusky raft
I went to a trade school by choice
near glen
It's an investment in the future
dusky raft
best investment I did
mystic ermine
education failing ain't always too much about the funding as much as the programs in place
shut vine
Correct, or the people running them
mystic ermine
Wonder how many schools in the UK still teach woodworking, etc
I know that our school was basically flying through them after i left, then again, my school basically disappeared a few years after that
shut vine
I don't think woodworking is a particularly practical thing to teach these days, would be better to teach basic carpentry.
dusky raft
We should get people to go into trade professions, which is why I promote voc tech schools
mystic ermine
that's what woodworking was, basically
e.g. making a shitty bunch of shelves too small to hold anything, a small cabinet, etc
near glen
I didn't have any of such classes
shut vine
Yeah not really a fan of teaching religion at schools.
near glen
I had java in school in grade 11 ^^
shut vine
I mean if private schools want to, that's fine.
mystic ermine
I mean, yea, sure, it's not something critical to learn, but it's an experience which you don't really get bar ma/pop's teaching it or something
dusky raft
the school I went to just stripped/accelerated the traditional school environment and went with a 50/50 on academic/trade time
mystic ermine
Best we got was front page
IT teaching in schools is generally trash, tbqh, teachers who know much outside of word, etc, is pretty shockingly low from my experience
dusky raft
so when I wasnt doing the usual english/math/science/etc, I was ripping apart servers or laptops in class
near glen
I had good teachers for IT
shut vine
Yeah, it's because it's a rapidly evolving field, it's not easy to keep curriculum up to date for it.
near glen
Well, unis have the same issues
shut vine
It's better particularly with IT to do a specialized class.
near glen
Let's all just yell at kenny, he's trying to become an IT teacher iirc
dusky raft
Networking hasnt changed much, considering cisco rules the US networking market
shut vine
i.e. focusing on one aspect.
near glen
Kek, cisco
shut vine
Well, nearly every other manufacturer copies the cisco CLI.
dusky raft
IOS back in 2008 hasnt changed much today if its the traditional version
yes
that also, and the concepts remain mostly the same
shut vine
In fact several companies are believed to have employee's from cisco who stole IOS for them.
mystic ermine
I mean, how many future programmers would there be if schools taught something even as stupid as scratch? etc
near glen
I learned scratch in grade 8
shut vine
Yeah, Scratch or Python.
dusky raft
I do recommend learning cisco because the chances are high enough that network equipment encountered at a job site is going to be cisco or some ripoff using cisco like command line
mystic ermine
They don't gotta go into networking, etc, because that's somewhat of a more "off brand" thing, tbqh, and defo not an aspect that would be super amazing I don't think on exams if it ever become a hard topic