You know, that site lists sources
#politics
near glen
sharp bronze
Not like all other news are run by rich white people anyway
near glen
There's something you call reputation
If you are right most of the time, you get good rep, if you are wrong most of the time, you get bad rep
The times internationally has good rep, vox news has bad rep
The only "approved" vaccines are chinese and russian and they just skipped phase 2 and 3 and went to limited approval right away
Aka they using large parts of the citizens as test dummies
sharp bronze
Population still doesn't explain it
Republican and European states have comparable deaths
sharp bronze
Only our states have so much infected
near glen
Accessibility to health care
There are so many factors
But its way easier to just jump to conclusions and say the Republicans have a vaccine
sharp bronze
If healthcare was a factor then republicans would have 100x the deaths
🧐
And neither can population unless you're telling me Europe doesn't have any cities
near glen
We have less infections because you actually try to fight this, lol
sharp bronze
What
As soon as you present uncontested statistical facts and an explanation why common refutations are wrong, you get threats to shut up in DMs 🤣
Ill shut up i guess
opal moat
No, you can always present facts, if there are actually facts and not just some nutjob conspiracy theories
thats the important difference
sharp bronze
Word
That's not what I guess explaining why your refutations were wrong still counts as spreading conspiracies
opal moat
Well, credible sources help
restive seal
I was just yesterday talking to some old gaming friends about a conspiracy theorist we used to play with. He was banned when he shifted from "corporations bad" to "it's the Jews" and such. Some remarks here remind me of his early "corporations have the secret to eternal life but won't share it to maintain their power" days
near glen
We need to stop calling them theories
Theories are something a scientist create based on a hypophosis which they try to proof we the facts
smoky hedge
Idk I stand by this conspiracy theory, https://reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/6ibl6n/is_grass_really_all_it_that_it_seems/
near glen
What these ppl are doing is creating conspiracy myths
Not theories, myths, faction, not based or connected to facts or reality at all
Calling them theories is giving them legitimacy, and is ultimately just framing
smoky hedge
I love this, “I was fully on board with grass controlling the world, but you lost me when you started talking about space travel like it’s real”, https://reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/6ibl6n/_/dj5cvnw/?context=1
weary obsidian
if you want a common sense theory on why left lean areas have higher rates:
right leaning tend to be more rural. rural is a pretty default state of social distancing, where as your only around your own family members for day to day stuff, blue collar jobs rural are more typically outdoors, with much smaller towns, going to the store will be less population dense.
left leaning areas tend to be city and urban dense populations. people living in apartments are touching a lot of common areas such as stairwells, building entrance doors, elevators on their day to day life. going to the store is going to be more populated. This is an environment where even one social distancing and mask wearing and staying at home can end up catching it with as simple as going up the stairs to your floor and forgetting to wash hands immediately (or leaving home and unconciously touching face at any point in the trip)
opal moat
as always, correlation is not causation
dusky raft
I didnt think that was going to last, the price of equipment coming out of there would have been expensive
would I like to see blue collar jobs come back to the US? Yes, but that is not going to happen in a very long time
I did think that project was wishful thinking
viscid saffron
Yeah
I feel bad because he's old and probably didn't even realize the camera was on.
dusky raft
Well we dont have a transcript of what exactly went on, While ill blame it on him not knowing how cameras work or how zoom works, I would like to hear what went on from the other side
or who was on the other end of the call
near glen
I blame ppl on making this public
thorny wing
"exposed himself" makes it sound like he was naked
viscid saffron
he was
near glen
Is this really nessasary?
viscid saffron
What?
near glen
The one article claims he was touching his dick and jerking off
viscid saffron
Was he? I heard about it like 10 minutes ago.
thorny wing
you'd hope they had an actual source before making a claim like that
thats just incendiary otherwise
near glen
What?
@viscid saffron I was questioning if stuff like this should reach the public, I think the guy has suffered enough
viscid saffron
@viscid saffron I was questioning if stuff like this should reach the public, I think the guy has suffered enough
Oh yeah, agreed.
thorny wing
no one who witnessed the meeting is gonna talk unless its super ott
near glen
Idk what article I reach, but they claimed to have talked to two ppl on that meeting that said he jerked off
But it was like a break or smth
near glen
I think I can find it
dusky raft
But yeah, most likely, just an accident, but I wouldnt be shocked in this day and age that someone would come up and claim sexual assault or the like
near glen
This one I read
"Both people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity in order to speak freely, noted that it was unclear how much each person saw, but both said that they saw Toobin jerking off. The two sources described a juncture in the election simulation when there was a strategy session, and the Democrats and Republicans went into their respective break out rooms for about 10 minutes. At this point, they said, it seemed like Toobin was on a second video call. The sources said that when the groups returned from their break out rooms, Toobin lowered the camera. The people on the call said they could see Toobin touching his penis. Toobin then left the call. Moments later, he called back in, seemingly unaware of what his colleagues had been able to see, and the simulation continued."
sharp bronze
That man sure is hairy
shut vine
mystic ermine
I have a mate from nigeria, who outside of our questionable jokes about what to do to avoid police suspicion if he ever somehow ended off the balcony, we'd talk about the horrors of governments and in turn, how fucked up nigeria is; There currently be this petition in the UK govs thing, I have little faith in our government, but, y'know; https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/554150
shut vine
Looks like it's getting about 100-200 signatures a minute currently, and is already at 80k.
It's pretty neat you have an online parliament petition system. Who implemented that?
mystic ermine
I have no idea, was a coalition government back in 2011, not sure where the trace leads back to, however
But yea, I think people are just blasting it out to those that they can, as it's freaking crazy over there, "going missing" is somewhat of a, not the norm norm, but, it's not like it's just stories of my mates mates mates mates... father, etc, it's often much closer to home
opaque prairie
yeah lmao shes been streaming for like 2 hours
deft bronze
Why
opaque prairie
community engagement idk? telling people vote over twitch?
because she wants to? i aint got a clue
opaque prairie
trying to get young people to vote seems like a good point
i mean shes running what? 350k viewers? she broke 450k earlier i think
shut vine
I don't really like her but it's good that she's encouraging young people to vote.
I also feel like she's anti-establishment, which I think is a good thing for American politics.
smoky hedge
Lol so it's a state election in Queensland atm, and one of the parties has decided to send out flyers with branding of the other two parties that just badmouth them, rather than advertising their own party
These aren’t actually flyers for the LNP or the greens 🙂
So far, that party has spent 80% of their allowed campaign budget with smear campaigns against other parties
10% of their budget was spent harassing a local volunteer branch secretary of a minor party over a tweet on her private twitter account
viscid saffron
Allowed campaign budget?
smoky hedge
In Australia (maybe just QLD idk) there's a maximum amount you're allowed to spend on a campaign
It's to prevent rich people buying the election, basically
Although Murdoch does that anyway due to owning 100% of the media outlets in the state
brisk cradle
I think this lawsuit is long overdue.
The Trump administration has expressed an interest, however meek and tepid, in trying to use antitrust laws for what they're meant for.
sharp bronze
2 weeks before election
plush crypt
Norway's capitalist party now wants to legalise racism, homophobia, ableism, and more
god bless
plush crypt
it is actually
There's been a red-green majority in polls since 2018, every single month
so this feels like a shot in their foot, knee, and then some
weary obsidian
Why
@deft bronze even if it wasnt about voting, whats wrong with her just wanting to play video games at a baseline? from my understanding, she is a gamer.
but yes extra benefit of connecting with young voters to energize them more to vote
she went the whole yard to get a proper stream setup going lol. i caught it at the end
she just reached a huge audience last night with popular streamers
republicans are so fucking corrupt, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/21/north-carolina-ballot-extension-430662
Hey you who mailed your ballot in time yet the postal service delayed your ballot, being no fault of your own, we want to deny your vote!
loud flax
it's funny how both parties say each other is corrupt. Politics is so broken man, lol
near glen
american politics *
sharp bronze
All politics is corrupt, Americans just accepted it and made it into a TV show
opal moat
I mean, thats the logical outcome of capitalism tbh
tawny linden
tho unfortuantely it's one of the only options...
opal moat
Not really
weary obsidian
lmao
near glen
That's some high quality shade right there
viscid saffron
I'd laugh except for the fact that San Francisco is so corrupt.
It's one of the most corrupt cities in California. That's coming from a Californian.
foggy fern
https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1318737296120778752 that's a better computer than I have 😦
Twitter
Like, every part of it is better except maybe the RAM
thorny wing
I have 32G of ram as well but the rest is better
ryzen 5000 launch pls
someone was joking that not an even act of congress can get you a 3080 when they saw it
loud flax
an M.2 drive and then 6TB SSD O_O
foggy fern
I wonder if that's a typo and it's HDD
Otherwise that's 3 SATA SSDs in RAID or something
viscid saffron
ignore me
thorny wing
place to concentrate all political discussion so people can easily mute it if they dont want to see it frosting
foggy fern
I think they didn't realize who the tweets were from/about so was confused why it was in here
viscid saffron
Yes
thorny wing
ah
viscid saffron
I was like "So gaming hardware is now political?"
viscid saffron
You've seen me in this channel before z750.
thorny wing
risc v x86
viscid saffron
RISC-V is dead
thorny wing
my memory is pretty bad actually, I pretty much write everything down I want to remember
happy to see you back then o/
viscid saffron
Yes LOL
viscid saffron
He just said that 😂
viscid saffron
JK
viscid saffron
No. EDIT: LED panels are stupid.
viscid saffron
What's the point of 8 cores?
viscid saffron
define dev work
elder portal
depends on the day
viscid saffron
monday
elder portal
a few Python projects, several IJ projects, many Chrome tabs, Gitkraken (I like my GUIs), a VM or two, music..
I end up using all the cores, accoring to Windows
doesn't matter anyway, I like the speed/core count/price ratio
definitely an upgrade from the FX-8350 I was using previously
three monitors makes for many open windows
buuut that's not neccesarily a bad thing
viscid saffron
I can't imagine ever getting my money back for that.
In terms of productivity increase
elder portal
it's not really about "getting money back" for me
if I were a car enthusiast, I'd be spending that money on a lambo or something
similar concept
viscid saffron
Ah
elder portal
sure, the massive productivity increase and more enjoyable gaming experience help sell it for me, but thaaaaat's not really the point
my next purchase for the PC is a new audio interface for recording YT videos, and after that it's an external DAC because SOUND QUALITY
(reason for needing a new interface for recording is complicated, but I really enjoy my GoXLR and it will absolutely be staying on my desk until it dies many years from now)
plush crypt
@light sentinel oh, youre one of those. then you shouldnt have a problem with private entities controlling what should be said on their platforms, no?
drifting arch
is that real
i swear to fucking god
this was the real post ... https://owo.whats-th.is/6K1jTk1.png
restive seal
The lack of awareness of how tech works in 2020 is upsetting
thorny wing
It’s been this way for a long time unfortunately
“The hacker known as 4chan”
light sentinel
that website took my innocence and ran with it bro
dusky raft
@near glen to be honest, im not shocked with that reporter from msnbc, because if they did talk to tech experts, they wouldnt be saying its fucking gentoo
I just think that post was pieced together to make it sound techy
brisk cradle
@near glen But Linux is a hacker tool!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!1
Real article: https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/things-go-bad-worse-giuliani-s-anti-biden-gambit-n1243868
Says nothing about Gentoo. Stay strong, don't fall for inspect element.
near glen
i dont even remember where that screenshot came from
wasn't there a site that showed deleted tweets?
opal moat
Please don't use maga2020! as a Twitter password
"if he were really ethical he would’ve deleted the account"
What I find interesting about that, Twitter requires 2FA for verified accounts, so why was it disabled
near glen
Wasn't there a requirement for verified accounts to use 2fa?
Oh iddnt read your last msg
I don't believe that tweet
Well I mean
I could see how dum ppl don't know how to manage a Twitter account as a team
And disabling 2fa as a result
shut vine
In a statement, Twitter spokesperson Ian Plunkett said: “We’ve seen no evidence to corroborate this claim, including from the article published in the Netherlands today. We proactively implemented account security measures for a designated group of high-profile, election-related Twitter accounts in the United States, including federal branches of government.”
-> Hunter laptop not real. They made it all up, it's Russian disinformation.
-> Then they used a Russian hacking tool to break into the laptop so they could get the information. Tool is named Gentoo. Scary stuff.
Has Hunter or the Biden campaign even given a formal statement about it yet?
Looks like Joe has
I can't find video footage, but apparently only claimed that it was a smear campaign
There it is
brisk cradle
Debate, yay
fiery salmon
Trump is absolutely fucking hilarious
brisk cradle
God, when I listen to Biden, I know he's a loud and proud neoliberal, but he's a breath of fresh air.
Interruptions
dusky raft
47 years of fresh air...
fiery salmon
"they had no idea what they were doing" Trump on Obama's administration's handling of H1N1
"neither do you asshat" -me on trump
dusky raft
makes me wonder if anyone did make canned air back in the 60s-70s
brisk cradle
Trump just casually bragging about he won't ask for bribes.
whatever, I'm going to stop watching
clear maple
Who is "The Big Man"
opaque prairie
because every recent president has released his tax returns?
i dont see how thats a good reason to not release them
the exact same nitpicking has been done to previous presidents
dusky raft
He doesnt have to, until the government tried to force him to do so
in the past, it was never a thing, was optional
opaque prairie
yeah there isnt, its an expectation that has been fulfilled by all presidents in recent history
a good will thing. tax returns show important info, such as debt
something that is very important when the person is running a country
tough cedar
seems like this debate will be summed up with "no u"
opaque prairie
possibly, but as someone who can be denied a job at a military contractor because of college debt, it sure seems obscene that we dont know these things about our acting president
sweet canyon
The dude keeps interrupting the poor lady.
foggy fern
Did Trump just say it was good that 500 kids won't be reunited with their parents?
"Got 525 kids don't know where they're going to be and where their parents are" "Good"
Not sure if I heard that right
sweet canyon
Did Trump say the only Hispanics in the US are the low IQ ones?
clear maple
did Biden just say poor boys?
tough cedar
i think he said go ahead amaranth
sweet canyon
This is comical
tough cedar
it did sound like good though
foggy fern
Nah he said only the dumb ones turn themselves in for deportation
torpid bear
Did Trump say the only Hispanics in the US are the low IQ ones?
I thought he said only the ones with low IQ showed up to court, implying that all the rest stayed illegally.
foggy fern
Not only the dumb ones are here
torpid bear
He said with the possible exception multiple times.
sweet canyon
The fact that he thinks he had a chance to do more is insane.
clear maple
there you go Biden
foggy fern
Dang Biden answered before I could post this
clear maple
that was answer I waiting for you stay
tough cedar
damn that silence lol
torpid bear
I’m a little behind. What did he say?
foggy fern
He said Obama couldn't get all the things they wanted done because of the Republican-led Congress
clear maple
the reason they did not get stuff done is because the Republics controlled congress
opaque prairie
speaking of McConnell, ya'll see those pics of him the other day? dude is looking messed up
foggy fern
Congress was basically like this http://www.cc.com/video-playlists/kw3fj0/the-opposition-with-jordan-klepper-welcome-to-the-opposition-w--jordan-klepper/tnawa2
Ah, right, but they didn't have 60 in the Senate and it takes 60 to do anything
I thought they lost the Senate in 2012 but it was 2014
No, everything is 60 unless they say it isn't
There are a few small exceptions plus judicial appointments
Right but everything gets fillibustered
They don't actually have to speak anymore
They can just say they're going to and stall the vote until the issue is dropped or a cloture vote passes
And passing that takes 60
So filibuster is apparently still actually getting up and talking but cloture is required to end discussion of any bill and move on to voting on it
And a cloture vote requires 60 to pass except for budget reconciliation and judicial appointments
At the start of any session (so every 2 years) the majority can change the rules and change this however they want, either by making it cover those things again, making it cover less things, or changing how many votes it takes
restive seal
Joe grabbing the mask the moment potentially infectious Melania approaches was a nice touch.
foggy fern
Budget reconciliation gets insanely abused though, technically as long as a proposal is projected to be revenue neutral by the CBO and it gets added to the House budget bill they only need 60 votes
I think they can actually raise taxes or lower spending in those bills too, they just can't do something that will cost more money
Unless they also cut the spending or raise taxes somewhere in the same bill so it comes out neutral
It can get pretty wonky though, the Bush tax cuts went through that way and only the most "optimistic" (bullshit) projections called them even neutral
foggy fern
Twitter
shut vine
"I don't look at this in the way he does, blue states and red states. They are all the United states, and look at the state which are having such a spike, in the coronavirus; they're the red states"
weary obsidian
north carolina is a giant clusterfuck of example of doing it all wrong
our daily rates count for over 10% of the nations
but hey we finally got kids back to school
thorny wing
foggy fern
sharp bronze
sharp bronze
he probably watched too many fox cartoons and thinks mexico has magic talking illegal coyotes
dusky raft
And I dont get the joke
But I think trump got it right, some 500+ kids cant find their parents is due to human traffiking, which is an issue
torpid bear
But later when it was brought up again that we separated 500+ kids from their parents and that we can’t find them, he responded by saying “good”.
dusky raft
Should we trust that every adult that comes across the border with a child is their parent?
Should we not assume that they are smuggling in that child for lets just say, not for the brightest future?
Nevermind I find it irresponsible to also be unprepared to go into the desert with a child with a high chance of death
torpid bear
But you can’t ignore that fact that he said it was “good” that 500+ kids can’t find their parents.
dusky raft
Look, its horrible that it has happened, but we shouldnt be allowing these people to cross the border without going through a safe port of entry
its fucking up logistics doing that
torpid bear
But they can secure our border without taking kids from their parents, and then losing them.
Even if you’re going to deport them, at least keep them together.
dusky raft
I think seperation should occur at least until they get some identification or some assemblance of proof that it is their child. The last thing you want is a child with a potential abuser
But with the influx of migrants, it might be tough with current implementations to keep track of groups or familes
nevermind the whole defund ICE
torpid bear
ICE hasn’t been defunded, and they’re losing kids’ parents anyway.
dusky raft
then how come havent parents stepped up and looked for their children?
torpid bear
Maybe because they’ve been deported...
dusky raft
Then they should contact their government to ask for the release of their kids...
or embassy
opaque prairie
the issue is it shouldnt be happening in the first place
dusky raft
whats the solution then?
opaque prairie
just send the family back instead of detaining and separating them?
foggy fern
500+ kids can't find their parents because they're too young to know their names and the government didn't keep good/any records
torpid bear
There needs to at least be a system to keep track of what kids were with what adults when they got picked up. Even Chuck E. Cheese’s has a system to match kids with their parents. If they can do it, why can’t the US government have one too?
opaque prairie
there is pretty much no situation where the government/ICE didnt fuck up majorly
mind you our entire discussion here is presiding on the fact that this is an accident, and not intentional
foggy fern
Under Obama the kids were kept in these places for up to 72 hours until they were turned over to HHS for more permanent housing and were only created due to a sudden spike that overwhelmed their existing facilities
weary obsidian
lol.... republicans so stupid they dont realize this hurts them more than the left: https://www.democracynow.org/2020/10/23/headlines/scotus_allows_alabama_to_ban_drive_up_voting_during_pandemic
make it harder for old people to vote. I just cant understand why the right is so against people voting
elder portal
Controlling who can vote is one of the best ways to ensure you win
Every successful party in a democracy does it
Sure, you can be honest and play fair, but you would be doing so while your competition doesn't
And without power you cannot affect change
shut vine
The taking kids from their parents thing is something that dates back to the Obama administration, all of the mainstream pictures are from then too.
I don't think it's necessarily bad either way, would be rather inhumane if we sent parents and their teenage kids to the same prison for committing a bank robbery. However I can also understand it'd be stressful for the children. It's a bit hard to argue honestly that it's the governments fault though, it is their parents putting them through the ordeal.
I am curious about the Supreme Court ruling, doesn't seem on face value to be related to the constitution.
Maybe because the constitution doesn't protect that form of voting and the circuit judge ruled that it was protected under the constitution.
deft bronze
make it harder for old people to vote. I just cant understand why the right is so against people voting
@weary obsidian they are just against democrats voting
everyone else should vote
lol
shut vine
Needless to stay whoever wins it's going to be challenged unless it's an absolute bloodbath. Both parties are interfering with the voting process.
deft bronze
idk why they don't just admit that mail in is good tho
shut vine
They've admitted absentee voting is good, which is very similar, just more reliable.
The number of local elections where mail in ballots have had major issues is quite high. In fact the MSM and Democrats were previously complaining about the issues I believe.
I can't see the logic in stopping curbside though.
Even Fox doesn't have a reasonable explanation. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/supreme-court-blocks-curbside-voting-in-alabama
SCOTUS didn't give a reasoning either due to it being an emergency application
near glen
Every other country manages to make mail voting work
Why can't the USA?
I thought you guys were supposed to be the best in everything
opaque prairie
we're only the best at pretending we are the best
viscid saffron
Your opinion is bullshit. Please shut up minidigger.
It's just antagonizing and you've failed to provide any evidence to support that assertion, probably because it's not true. Hyperbolical language such as "Every other country manages to make mail voting work" is false.
viscid saffron
Every other nation makes mail in voting work?
opaque prairie
lmao
viscid saffron
That's what he's saying.
viscid saffron
It's an anecdote that's not based in fact.
opaque prairie
that the US cant do it or that other countries cant do it
viscid saffron
What do you mean?
shut vine
Well absentee voting is a form of mail in voting. The problem as I see it in the US is they've never tried so the system is not in place to do it. Allegedly people who have not updated their addresses are a big issue for the current system for starters.
So people receiving ballots meant for someone who used to live at their address.
So mail in voting could be a thing, but it needs to be done properly. The main difference with absentee voting is you have to provide your address before you get your ballot.
If the real goal of mail in voting is to protect them from the pandemic I don't personally understand why doing it the absentee way is an issue for Democrats.
deft bronze
I thought you guys were supposed to be the best in everything
@near glen the only thing we good at is fast food and guns
viscid saffron
Stupid
deft bronze
hm?
near glen
@near glen the only thing we good at is fast food and guns
@deft bronze right, sorry ^^
shut vine
I think the checks and balances system in America is pretty good. A lot of countries could learn from that.
opaque prairie
dont forget obesity
shut vine
America also has one of the highest if not the highest vertical fiscal mobility of any other country too.
near glen
Isn't checks the old paper based systems ppl used in the 70s?
viscid saffron
LOL
opaque prairie
i would disagree on the checks and balances thing, as per this most recent administration but like
near glen
I don't think I ever held a check in my hand
shut vine
Well I didn't say they are perfect.
opaque prairie
i have written a check twice in my life
shut vine
But the Presidents power is currently curtailed by the Legislative branch.
torpid bear
Our checks and balances are great in theory, but they aren’t really working.
near glen
Europe has SEPA, we dont need to paper
shut vine
The house can block most of what he wants to do if they want.
The reality is there Robot is most countries have less. 😦
viscid saffron
<@&748618676189528155> ^trolling
opaque prairie
who is trolling lol
near glen
Who's trolling?
viscid saffron
Both of you
near glen
I call self report
shut vine
Yea I don't understand either.
near glen
Frosting sus
near glen
I don't even understand what he's on about
opaque prairie
the mods ping doesnt seem very joking but maybe
near glen
Puns? Where did I make a pun? Lol
shut vine
I meant you guys were joking, maybe he misunderstood it as trolling
viscid saffron
Whatever I guess.
shut vine
Yea okay, maybe I'm just misunderstanding everything, don't mind me
I meant this: Europe has SEPA, we dont need to paper
near glen
I was refering to the fact that we have sepa transfers here, so we don't do paper checks
viscid saffron
I'm aware.
shut vine
Ah ok
shut vine
Anyway lets just get back on point, and get along 😛
sand shale
play nice children
torpid bear
This point doesn’t really support getting along but sure
shut vine
I think USA has a good checks and balance system but it could be improved.
near glen
- huggles kashike *
torpid bear
I think in theory it’s great, but it needs to be implemented better.
viscid saffron
Interesting. How so?
shut vine
I think the MIC is the biggest problem for America at this point, they buy politicians and media alike.
opaque prairie
i think for the 1700s it was a good system, and has not been well adapted to the 21st century
it also was not prepared for a party to be completly complicit with dismantling it
shut vine
The media is meant to investigate the politicians and hold them accountable, it's currently not really happening unless the people who buy the journalists want it to.. and when they're often the same ones buying the politicians why would they want that?
viscid saffron
The US could definitely take a page from the UK and Australia in regard to election spending and coverage.
torpid bear
I’m not familiar with the systems there. What do they do?
shut vine
I think there's a lot UK and Australia could take from US too.. it's a lot easier to find out that information as a citizen in the USA
Like to find out who's donating to who
deft bronze
likely the "parents" were never their parents because any sane parent would go back to try and get their child
@autumn lotus they were deported. They couldn't go back
shut vine
It's the parents that cannot be located.
deft bronze
who knows maybe they did contact the US to get them back
It's the parents that cannot be located.
@shut vine they can't be located bc they are in a different country
shut vine
It would be a bit hard for the parents to lose themselves, well maybe with the right drugs.
deft bronze
??? then the parents are not trying to get their child back
@autumn lotus I just said they could have tried, we wouldn't know
shut vine
Yeah, figures. They're likely attempting to find them via official means within the country they were deported too though. @deft bronze
deft bronze
In any case, they shouldn't have been seperated in the first place
opaque prairie
the agents just dont care? why were the children seperated in the first place
shut vine
As to why the parents were deported without their children is strange, would like to know how that fuck up occurred.
deft bronze
and how do they get deported without mentioning to the agents that their child is still there?? that just doesnt happen unless it wasnt their child
@autumn lotus many illegal immigrants don't speak english
shut vine
Criminals should not be separated from their children?
torpid bear
What if they did what you described and the agents just didn’t care?
opaque prairie
i mean they most likely did? i am more convinced that this is an intentional act of cruelty
deft bronze
So your saying that the US did them a favor by seperating them from their "parents"? @autumn lotus
opaque prairie
why would they lie about a child while crossing the border
shut vine
It's not a good conscience argument to absolve the parents of the guilt in this situation. If you act in a criminal way you're putting your children in a bad position. You can't commit crimes and expect to remain with your children, when you do you end up in jail.
opaque prairie
like the gymnastics here to justify the US losing children are insane. regardless of what the parents did this should not be happening to the child
torpid bear
But they aren’t in jail. They got deported.
shut vine
I agree, they should have been deported with their parents.
As I said earlier, would like to know exactly how that fuck up occurred.
opaque prairie
like there is no situation here where the us/ice didnt fuck up majorly, or do this intentionally
deft bronze
@autumn lotus would it be enough to convince you if the children said that they were seperated from their parents?
shut vine
Saying the US fucked up, and saying the kids parents fucked up, are completely different situations.
torpid bear
You’re assuming that they aren’t their parents, when you have no way whatsoever of knowing that.
Not you James
shut vine
Ah so they crossed illegally without identification maybe?
If that's the case, there is a reasonable expectation that they would be untrusted.
opaque prairie
why are we blaming the parents for the US govt losing the children
then where are they?
shut vine
Yeah that's not what the story is.
torpid bear
The government lost the parents. Not the children.
shut vine
The parents cannot be found, not the children.
opaque prairie
you are right about that
shut vine
They didn't lose them, just they cannot be located after their alleged parents were deported.
It's possible what's occurred is the US government is trying to reunite those children with their real families.
opaque prairie
i mispoke about the losing child thing - but either way, the govt fucked up bad enough that they cant locate the parents, and that is on the government
deft bronze
yeap
shut vine
And they have reason to believe they were being trafficked.
deft bronze
And they have reason to believe they were being trafficked.
@shut vine what reason?
if they were never the parents in the first place they did not fuck up
@autumn lotus no evidence to support this claim
torpid bear
The government never said that they were trafficked.
shut vine
I'm saying that it's possible, I do not specifically know the reason if there is one.
opaque prairie
how do you know they arent their kids? wtf
who tries to drag some kid across the border
like
torpid bear
How do you know they aren’t?
shut vine
It's better to be inquisitive in these situations, figure out what caused this situation to occur rather than jump to conclusions.
opaque prairie
youre telling me, if some dude called you up and was like, thats my kid youd believe them?
shut vine
Yeah, that's probably part of the issue.
torpid bear
How do we know it’s not traffickers calling the embassies?
shut vine
Being able to identify the children and the parents is probably a difficult affair.
opaque prairie
yeah exactly, like idk how we are defending the govt here
shut vine
It probably would have been smarter to deport them and let the Mexican police deal with it.
deft bronze
because they would not be missing parents if the parents were contacting embassies and government
@autumn lotus that is evidence from after the incident, therefore the government still fucked up
opaque prairie
i would like the govt to not seperate children from their parents thats whaat
shut vine
Well I think it's reasonable to say it looks like the government fucked up, but it's not conclusive.
opaque prairie
i would also want the govt to be fucking transparent with this stuff
torpid bear
Also another thing we shouldn’t forget is that when Biden brought up that these children’s parents are missing at the debate, Trump just said “good”.
deft bronze
idk what you would want the government to do? deport a child with someone who is very likely not their parent and is being trafficked?
@autumn lotus There was no evidence at the time to suggest that they weren't the real parents
shut vine
Though there may more information available than I have.
deft bronze
@torpid bear could mean trump thinks those parents were not their parents
@autumn lotus then why ddn't he elaborate?
know what?
shut vine
Not having identification would give the US reasonable belief that the adults are not the parents.
Not enough to do this, in my opinion.
They should have held them all until the Mexican authorities could identify them.
torpid bear
Another thing: if the government thinks these aren’t the real “parents”, then why didn’t they just say that when they were asked about it?
shut vine
Yeah, if you're involved in a crime, and cannot adequately identify yourself, they don't just believe you are who you say you are.
Can we agree on that point?
That point not being a justification, but being a reality.
Couldn't both the parents and the government fuck up at the same time though?
torpid bear
But they didn’t even try to find out
shut vine
Do we know that they didn't try to find out Robot? Or are you assuming that?
torpid bear
I have as much evidence as you do
shut vine
Yeah, okay, so we don't know the particulars of that probably.
I think they should have detained the "parents" until their identity could be established though.
shut vine
Likewise for the children. You don't want children going back to a gang or abductors or human traffickers etc.
Yeah, this is why it's better to be inquisitive, figuring out these details would give us a better picture of what actually went wrong.
torpid bear
We’re all just speculating because the government won’t tell us what’s actually going on here. They haven’t said the “parents” aren’t real, and they haven’t said that they are.
shut vine
It's easy to blame the government, and I'm pretty sure in this case they fucked up in some way, but I'm not certain and not certain on the details of how they did.
Well I think technically this information is part of the Freedom of Information laws.
torpid bear
It’s very easy to blame the government when they won’t even tell us their side of the story.
shut vine
You can apply for the details, usually that's what the media are supposed to do.
torpid bear
The two of you could do the same. Then we would know whether they suspect the “parents” of being traffickers of not. For now I’m just going to use the information I have, and not what I speculate about what might be the case.
shut vine
Considering how fresh the story is, maybe the information will be made public soon.
torpid bear
Yeah. We should talk again once we have more info about it.
shut vine
I'm actually not a US citizen, so I am not able to apply.
torpid bear
Cool
shut vine
I try to be balanced in my views, hold the same standards for every politician.
torpid bear
You’ve probably heard this a million times but is everything upside down there?
shut vine
😛
Example, I think it's stupid that the Democrats wont budge on the 2.2 trillion stimulus, and I think it's stupid the Republicans wont budge on the 1.8 trillion.
The US needs the stimulus now, just get it done.
shut vine
Allegedly 485 of the children have had their families located but the parents do not want to be reunited with them in their country of origin, they want to be reunited in the USA.
deft bronze
Big brain
restive seal
Allegedly 485 of the children have had their families located but the parents do not want to be reunited with them in their country of origin, they want to be reunited in the USA.
@shut vine Could you provide a source on that one? I haven't been following this clusterfuck of a story much lately.
deft bronze
Abc news I think
restive seal
unreal orbit
near glen
Truth
pseudo drift
The reason Biden wins here for me is that he's stayed the same man through both debates, a tough man with grit that is willing to fight for this country against the orange clown. Trump was a wild reactionary in the first, seething at the heel of Biden. And now, to pander to centrists he's pretending to be calm and collected. Typical traits of a two faced politician. Has one face for one audience and completely flips it for another.
shut vine
@restive seal So what it looks like after some really intense investigation is that there are (1030 total) 545 children who's parents could not be found, 485 where they have been but the parents do not want them to be reunited in their country of birth https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/21/trump-separation-policy-545-children-parents-still-not-found this article notes the 485 but does not say much more about them, seems to just say they have been located, not that they have been returned or not. Then this https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/522445-trump-campaign-spokesperson-says-parents-dont-want-children-separated-at has statements from officials, and seems to paint it like there are 545 total and 485 had refusals from parents.
restive seal
Thanks James!
shut vine
Since it's a litigation, it would make sense it's a matter of public record and it could be requested probably.
I also found an article highlighting that the 485 were not with their parents when they crossed the border, their parents "sent" them to America.
I can't find that one again, and had trouble finding those two.
I suspect censorship, but could just be my googlefu is off today.
Regarding the debates, I'd argue Trump benefitted the most. He was able to nail Joe down on issues. Removal of federal funding for oil for example. Joe also kept doing the political speech thing where he tries to tug on the heart strings of people listening instead of actually answering the question and Trump made sure to bring everyone's attention to it.
I don't know if it was a strategy in the first debate to act the way he was, but he restrained himself in this debate as well. Biden was the one interrupting first, and continued to do so, I think Trump only interrupted him very late into the debate.
I still think the VP debates were more telling.
Kamila smiling while she talks about how many American's were dead "because of the current Administration". lol
pseudo drift
It's amazing how many people fall for a 4chin
shut vine
4chin?
Well the mistakes made with H1N1 resulting in 60 million infections gave the experts a lot of data to work with. Pretty sure you're right, Biden would be working off that same data too.
I don't think it's accurate or useful to assume it'd be worse/better.
Correct, that's what I was referring to. Pretty sure the mistakes there helped with SARS-CoV-2 modelling and measures.
foggy fern
H1N1 we didn't really do anything for
Also H1N1 is still around, it's just one of the yearly strains of influenza we might get
We get different ones every year
Luckily H1N1 ended up being way less deadly than the average for influenza
restive seal
President of the United States https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD74Vzb_yi8
foggy fern
Which is also probably why we didn't really do anything about it
It got hyped a lot in the news and a lot of (mostly 20-40 year olds, iirc) died but it really was not as bad as the flu, the only odd thing was who it was killing
If we'd had a situation like we had with covid where NYC hospitals immediately filled up we probably would have done more aggressive things
shut vine
Which is also probably why we didn't really do anything about it
@foggy fern yeah but it was believed to have been as deadly as SARS when it was discovered, definitely lucky it wasn't, and has been a huge help in understanding pandemics. A lot of the current measures are apparently based around the data from that pandemic.
foggy fern
Yeah, after that is when we got the pandemic teams set up
...the ones that got shut down in 2017
Or was it 2018?
restive seal
To save on time, I imagine, basket. Even if those are the only incredibly dumb moments out of 45 minutes that's far too many dumb moments for the President of the US.
foggy fern
@autumn lotus Trump was supposed to come back with Pence and do a walk around the White House while they did some more fluff questions, iirc
That's why they were surprised he cut it short, not because of the end of the questions but because he didn't come back
foggy fern
It was agreed to as a part of setting up the interview
Not at the start of the interview, before the 60 minutes team ever came to the WH they set up how it was going to work
shut vine
People make gaffes, including Biden and Trump.
In my opinion it's not entirely useful to focus on those. Though he is a pretty obnoxious man.
foggy fern
Except he did walk out, because he didn't come back as scheduled
Unless you're saying 60 minutes is lying (and I'm not even sure the WH has said that) the plan was for Trump to be with Pence
Like he actually ever does anything
shut vine
Well, realistically they probably have that on video if it was said.
Be interesting to see if that is the case.
foggy fern
Even his official schedule has like 4-6 hours of day of "watch TV" time
They call it "executive time"
restive seal
so biased
Thanks for labeling your messages appropriately prior to sending! 😄
shut vine
Well has he claimed that?
Like if he had to deal with something it's completely plausible, but it's easy to say that and what it is if it is not of sensitive nature.
Yeah, I agree. That will be on video if he said it.
mystic ermine
I mean, from their discussions on the video it sounded like the intent was that he would be there with pence, he just more seemed done from the line of questions
shut vine
I agree with the point that seeing the full video footage uncut would be useful to form a proper opinion though.
foggy fern
The White House released the Pence part too, she spends part of the time trying to find out from him what happened to Trump
shut vine
The media has a hardon for taking him out of context.
Not limited to Trump, obviously.
foggy fern
I thought Leslie said directly he was supposed to come back but apparently that was just "sources" but she seems confused about why he wasn't there anymore
I bet they'll talk about what the plan for the interview was as the intro for the show tomorrow
shut vine
Trump seems pretty fed up with the media so wouldn't surprise me. Also can't blame him for that really, think any other President in his shoes would be fed up.
I think they should provide uncut versions of both.
foggy fern
I don't usually watch the show, did she do one with Biden recently?
restive seal
"as confrontational" arguably can't be the standard there, as Biden doesn't typically lie every time he talks (No, before anyone tries this, I'm not saying Biden doesn't lie) which leaves less opportunity to be confrontational. 😛
shut vine
60 minutes cover both major presidential nominee's before election night.
And their running mates.
My view is all politicians lie every time they talk.
Just some are better lies.
Er, better liars.
restive seal
tough questions != confrontational though
shut vine
I think Biden has had a fair share of lying in recent history.
foggy fern
Why does oil need subsidies?
shut vine
Claiming he will cut all federal subsidies to the oil industry is going to turn off a lot of voters, that's for sure.
foggy fern
Until tech stocks got overvalued to hell and back oil companies were the most valuable on the planet but they need subsidies to keep going?
shut vine
They get subsidies for making the industry cleaner I believe.
restive seal
re: lose votes - Will it really, James? Who thinks the oil industries deserve free money and that it's a good thing? I've never figured that one out other than oil executives.
shut vine
I think there is also an element to reduce cost to consumers.
restive seal
Without those subsidies, does oil fail to make a profit?
shut vine
Yeah, they do.
Just you pay a lot more for your electricity etc.
The subsidies help the lower class more than the upper class.
Yeah wish more areas used Nuclear. It's a viable option to make fossil fuels less important.
foggy fern
Put those subsidies into incentizes to build more wind turbines or battery factories or something
near glen
Nuclear has one littler problem
foggy fern
iirc nuclear isn't actually viable to provide all the power the world uses
We'd run out of uranium before we even got all the plants built
near glen
Where do you store the waste?
restive seal
I'm thinking mar-a-lago, mini.
near glen
That holds it for literally millions of years?
I don't think any country has such a place
I think Finnland ist actually the first one to build one right now that's really save
mystic ermine
Well, people where looking into projects to burn off the long lasting stuff, no idea where that went
shut vine
There are technologies to make disposal easier. But if you put the subsidies into making that industry cleaner I'm sure you can find something better too.
near glen
Who guarantees that all future civilizations will listen to the scientists and keep paying upkeep?
You already have a president that ignores science now
mystic ermine
Wel, they're still tryna get throrium up and running
shut vine
Wind turbines will never make a huge impact on fossil fuel usage in the US.
mystic ermine
Well, the issue is that we need an energy storage tech which is cheap and doesn't also destroy the land
near glen
Lemme get actual numbers
mystic ermine
Didn't france literally build a nuke to export more energy to y'all?
near glen
foggy fern
If I'm running these numbers correctly we'd need about 550,000 metric tons of uranium to provide 100% of the world's electricity at current levels and we've only identified 5,500,000 metric tons so far
shut vine
The US would need 600,000 turbines to cover current household energy usage.
foggy fern
With up to 10,500,000 out there that we haven't found yet
So we'd have power for 10-30 years if we were 100% nuclear
near glen
Everything that isn't renewable is obviously not sustainable
It's that simple
Cause you will run out eventually
shut vine
"In the United States, the direct land use for wind turbines comes in at three-quarters of an acre per megawatt of rated capacity. That is, a 2-megawatt wind turbine would require 1.5 acres of land." 4.082 billion megawatt-hours is the household usage in the US
near glen
Wind turbines got way more efficient the last decade
And there are still improvements to be made
foggy fern
22 trillion kWh produced in 2017 and it 1 metric ton of uranium makes 400 billion kWh
22,000,000,000,000 / 4,000,000,000 = 550,000
near glen
Obviously you not gonna power the whole country on wind
shut vine
There's a lot of improvements for Nuclear to be made too.
near glen
You need a good mix
foggy fern
Err, wait
I missed a zero somewhere again
That's 5500
I need to write this shit down as a go not try to reduce it in my head after I finish punching it into a calculator
near glen
That's why you need a good grid to distribute the energy
near glen
Power plants ruin the view so much more
shut vine
It's a null argument, same with the "there is room to improve".
near glen
Cause all the clouds
Idk, just gotta be norway and power the whole country on water
Lucky bastards
shut vine
Neither of them add anything to the discussion.
foggy fern
Oh, 10 metric tons make 400 million kWh
near glen
Norway is 98% renewable, 95% hydro power
mystic ermine
we defo need to move off fossil fuels, the issue is how do you deal with all the gaps and the potential ecological issues of all of them
foggy fern
So maybe it's 55,000 which would give us 100-300 years? I don't know, I don't really want to do math today, I've been drinking 😛
mystic ermine
Some would argue that due to how long plants take to build, we've fucked the nuclear safety net anyways
foggy fern
Also nuclear is basically the opposite of what you want if you have a lot of solar and wind in the grid
You want natural gas, hydro, or batteries
Something you can ramp up and down quickly
near glen
You want a good mix
Gas is still meh co2 wise, but it's a good regulator, we thankfully use it as that now
And shut down coal
foggy fern
Solar and wind can provide most of your power but not consistently so you need to pair it with things that can rapidly scale their generation up and down without being insanely wasteful doing so
shut vine
Nuclear fusion technologies are emerging currently too, which are a LOT cleaner, and produces way more energy.
foggy fern
Nuclear to scale down you just pump the power into the ground, you're still burning uranium just as fast
near glen
Fusion is so far away tho
mystic ermine
Well, yea, but fusion is always 10 years out
near glen
We not even sure if it can actually work
mystic ermine
It's cool that they're making ground ways, but, as soon as they solve one issues they find 20 more
foggy fern
Move the oil subsidies to fusion research, maybe it'll stop being 20 years away and actually get closer
near glen
We hope that the energy we put in is lower than the energy we get out
mystic ermine
I believe they can make it work, it's just getting there
shut vine
Well, there are current reactors that work, the issue now is funding so they can be mass produced.
near glen
But that's not much more than a hope
mystic ermine
Issue with reactors is the horrors of getting them planned, approved and built
People protest against everything too, nobody wants wind turbines in their view, nukes always go boom, etc, etc...
shut vine
We are actually sure it can work. It's a proven technology at this point.
mystic ermine
waste is only one issue
and it's not really "solid", I mean, it's the best "toss it out of the way", but it's still radioactive as all shit
shut vine
i.e. working reactors that do produce a portion of the theoretical maximums (more than current fission technology).
mystic ermine
We're just praying that the world doesn't have an apocalypse and people don't stumble upon it/have some way of knowing "fuck that"
near glen
The current nuclear reactors in europe aren't save tho, they are fucking ruins
How is the one in Belgium called that always breaks down?
shut vine
Most reactors in Europe are 1st gen aren't they?
mystic ermine
Because getting them replaced is literally arse
near glen
Tiange or smth
mystic ermine
Extending their lifetime is much easier than replacing them
foggy fern
If we ran the waste through breeder reactors we could burn most of it up and what was left would have a shorter half life
shut vine
I know France has a lot of newer 3rd gen ones.
near glen
They don't even put in maintincance
foggy fern
Problem is what is left is plutonium
foggy fern
I thought the concern about yucca mountain involved yellowstone
near glen
That's a big fuck you to future generations
foggy fern
Although if yellowstone goes nuclear waste will be the least of our concerns
near glen
Yucca montain is still in a region where there are earthquakes and there was also some vulcanic activity there last I checked
Ppp forget
This gotta be save for hundrets of thousands of years
foggy fern
Obama killed Yucca Mountain and Trump killed the work on alternatives
So we're still left with plants just storing the waste on-site
near glen
Idk how anybody can produce waste that needs to be dealt with for so fucking long
That's just not sustainable
foggy fern
Although Yucca Mountain was supposed to open in 1998 so Obama really just stopped the arguments over it
shut vine
There are actually TWO current fusion reactor technologies that work.
near glen
In small scale and without producing power james, lmao
shut vine
Magnetic confinement, and inertial confinement.
near glen
Fusion is far far away
shut vine
It's working today.
near glen
The horror of this is that you hope that future goves don't defund that facility
Well, you at least should check if everything is ok 😂
The temp storage germany had was issues with water dripping in, that was a shit fest
mystic ermine
inb4 humanity collapses and somebody starts terraforming the desert
near glen
Idk, I just don't think it's a good idea to produce this kinda waste
And there are enough alternatives
mystic ermine
which have their own issues
mystic ermine
we've still not got a perfect solution for the toxic waste that solar panels will produce
near glen
Just be norway and run on 95% hydro and laugh at the world's energy problems
mystic ermine
We've still not got an amazing solution for wind turbines beyond tryna shred it for construction or melt it down into sludge pools
foggy fern
Analysis of the available data in 1996 indicates that, since 1976, there have been 621 seismic events of magnitude greater than 2.5 within a 50-mile (80 km) radius of Yucca Mountain.
mystic ermine
designing a tower for an earthquake and an underground storage facility are two different ball games
cement isn't all that great
cement is weak as shit
foggy fern
The problem is they have to design this thing to be safe for 100,000 years and the most they seem willing to guarantee is 10,000 years
They don't think any failure after that would release excessive radiation though
deft bronze
when ur talking about radiation, its better to be safe
restive seal
The obvious plan is dropping this stuff into a volcano
loud flax
this conversation is just blowing my christian brain right now
foggy fern
Twitter
near glen
this conversation is just blowing my christian brain right now
@loud flax what has christianity to do with any of this tho?
loud flax
the view that man has only lived for 6,000 years, and we're talking 100,000 years into the future here XD
near glen
I mean, I think the earliest find of bones of a homo sapiens is like 300k years old
Sooooooo
Altho it took us at least 200k years to extinct all other archaic human species
near glen
Meh, guess I confused theory and hypophosis
But oh well
In normal speech a scientific theory is a fact and a hypophosis is a theory ^^
elder portal
These are things that should be fact (saying "theory of gravity" sounds wrong) but recent science culture shies away from that
Even though evolution is just as proven as gravity. We even experience it daily
smoky hedge
Isn’t a theory in science based on observation, whereas a law (like gravity) is based on calculations and other stuff?
So because evolution is not directly testable, but more observable (even to a “provable” extent), it’d still be considered a theory?
deft bronze
Tru
this conversation is just blowing my christian brain right now
@loud flax you mean creationist?
loud flax
@deft bronze you could say that, though I tend to conflate the two
shy gulch
In short, theories are explanations and laws are equations. Gravity explains why we're attracted to the earth and its laws describe how that happens. Evolution explains how all creatures came about, climate change explains, well, why the climate is changing.
On a tangent, there's also models, which are pure own little make-believe rules for world to better understand the real world. Our way of thinking how particles work are based on a model that particles are (roughly) a point in space that (sonetimes) pretends not to have mass or volume, and our laws made from these models are more accurate, the closer our simplified model reflects something with the real world
elder portal
@smoky hedge we test gravity as much as we test evolution. We also use math to prove specific parts of evolution as much as we do gravity
that argument seems fine until you realize that we do everything to prove/disprove everything
evolution, climate change, etc are as much law as gravity is
it's just that gravity was discovered/made into law at the time where everything was made into a law, and we disproved a lot of previous laws
and the current scientific culture makes things into permanent "theories" because, who knows, maybe some day we'll disprove them (unlikely)
special and general relativity were the two most recent discoveries made into laws
we're very averse, as a scientific culture, to making things into law that really should be made into law
shut vine
Taking into account the nature of subatomic particles, it's easy to see why scientists are reluctant to jump to conclusions.
Also evolution itself is not something that can be used to disprove the existence of a grand creator. Archeology could technically prove/disprove certain religions like Christianity, or at least the accounts in the bible.
restive seal
Also evolution itself is not something that can be used to disprove the existence of a grand creator
Yup, but disproving is not necessary. Such a claim (grand creator) requires proof, not disproof.
shut vine
Of course, in science it does.
The issue there is we will probably always be unable to answer what came before evolution, at the very most we'll be able to speculate. For example the big bang.
shut vine
Well gravity is an odd one, it is partially believed to be a quantum physics phenomenon (i.e. particles), but not sure that's known for sure yet.
It has historically been considered a force, however recently a significant indicator of quantum particles being the cause of gravity has been discovered. Advanced LIGO discovered that gravity has a wave pattern.
It's still theoretical, however the graviton is looking like it actually exists.
foggy fern
You mean proving that changes in gravitational forces propagate at the speed of light?
shut vine
General theory of relativity stuff, Einstein theorized that gravity would propagate in all directions away from the source in wave patterns.
It's definitely not conclusive because it could still be a force, but it's a step to proving long standing theories about wave-particle duality and other quantum mechanics concepts.
deft bronze
so this went from politics to nuclear waste to creationism to science to gravity?
restive seal
Got too divisive so we switched to something more attractive that could really pull us all together.
thorny wing
egg82 is an anti-vaxxer
thorny wing
birds arent real! https://birdsarentreal.com/
viscid saffron
Ooh! Let me try!
I thought Americans didn't believe in science?
glacial flare
From how people act these days and what people think, I actually can't tell if this site is being serious, but for now, I'm thinking it's a joke.
thorny wing
the birds thing is an elaborate joke
mostly to make fun of similar conspiracies
but also apparently now to sell tshirts
glacial flare
lol
smoky hedge
birds being fake is just a cover up for worms being fake
the early bird catches the worm? it's all a conspiracy 
thorny wing
worms are how they recharge the batteries
bird poop is how they attach tracking devices to cars
thorny wing
idk why you deleted that, Ive heard service members make similar jokes about it
on a related note, protect your children from linyos torovoltos, the soviet computer hacker behind lunix, an illegal hacker operation system https://web.archive.org/web/20190104155817/http://www.adequacy.org/public/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html
viscid saffron
lol I deleted it because it was stupid. Sorry.
thorny wing
Most conspiracies are, until they’re true 👀
“Current US camo is ugly and bad because x crazy reason why else would they make it so bad?”
Is a pretty common joke though
shut vine
I think the actual problem is it's global scale and very gradual. It makes it a very difficult thing to prove scientifically, because reproduction of it in experiments is not very practical.
The questions I think are relevant to the changes in climate over time are: 1. Is it possible the long term projections as to the effects it could have be wrong? 2. Is it possible the proposed solutions could have little effect, no effect, or negative effects on the long term outcome? 3. Could the time and money spent on the proposed solutions could prevent us from addressing 2? 4. Could inaction now make it more likely 'no effect' in case 2 be more likely? 5. Does this need to be a worldwide effort, or is it sufficient that just developed free countries just do it (i.e. what about the countries on the top of this list https://www.numbeo.com/pollution/rankings_by_country.jsp)?
opaque prairie
scientists data is great and all, but like hell, I do not need their data as proof of climate change
looking at the weather where i live and other storm events is plenty of enough proof that something is changing
loud flax
so uh
something that I find to be a big problem is the concept of morality being subjective. I know some will disagree with me in here when I say it's objective, but if you don't have a framework for what's right, how are you going to reliably come up with solutions to problems in society?
weary lake
You let the majority decide what is morally good or bad and then decide your solutions based on those.
In a democracy, you vote for a party who shares your ideas and therefore your idea of morality, then those parties come together, talk, discuss, vote, etc. and in the end you have a solution rolling out that represents what the majority wants.
The morality stays subjective, you just negotiate to find common ground on which laws are based. Some people will disagree with x law and others will disagree with y law, but the law should represent an average.
loud flax
well, when the majority decided long ago (rather the people in power) that slavery was ok, that makes me a little standoffish about the whole thing
thus i don't trust the majority. I trust the people that are in tune to the human spirit and what is naturally not ok
when you form some sort of bond to an item you acquired and someone else feels it's ok to steal that item, and thus upsetting that bond, I don't think anyone would be ok with someone else stealing their items. Find me someone who would, and then we can talk about stealing being subjectively wrong rather than inherently wrong. That's one example
opaque prairie
I mean alternatively, i think morality is not subjective
weary lake
Morality isn't a static thing, people's opinions change over time and so will therefore the common morality. Laws just need to keep up to date with that (of course you can't vote on every topic every day, but laws should be reviewed when the morality of people starts to shift). Nowadays it's commonly agreed upon that slavery is not ok, but in the past we did find it okay. In the end of the day we all try to make a good decision and some people might end up making a wrong decision. That's not inherently bad, you just chose poorly.
The concept of "human spirit" and "naturally not ok" is also very subjective. One person may find x to be naturally not ok, while someone else might find that acceptable. Same holds for the human spirit. At that point, you're just putting those terms as a middle man.
loud flax
was slavery ok centuries ago?
weary lake
Most people found slavery ok centuries ago.
Whether you agree or disagree with them is up to you.
loud flax
do you think the slave owners would have wanted to be slaves? would they thought that was ok?
weary lake
I don't know, I'm not a slave owner.
Clearly they believed that what they were doing was not wrong.
Whether they wanted to be slaves themselves, well I doubt it.
loud flax
well there is a disparity there
some people are free, while others aren't free
freedom is either good or it isn't
can't be both
weary lake
They thought that their slaves didn't deserve freedom, while they did.
Have to eat, but can discuss further afterwards.
loud flax
sure
they would have been wrong about that because as today we are not a slave society everyone is better off, and would have been better off back then
now in terms of economy and not having slaves back then, maybe it would have been more difficult without
weary lake
Let's say you'd be a slave owner back then and suddenly you had to get rid of all your slaves - they would have been better off, but you probably wouldn't, so not everyone is better off in a no-slave society. The majority agrees that having slaves is not okay nowadays, but just because we think now that something is wrong, doesn't mean that that is some kind of absolute truth. For all we know, we have a drastic change about something in 2050 or so and what we would be doing today would be seen as wrong. That doesn't suddenly invalidate what we're doing now, we just collectively made a wrong decision.
loud flax
what about appealing to the individual and the need to weed out suffering?
as much as can be done
some level of conflict will still be there
but at least you can start off by appealing to basic human needs
weary lake
There will always be some level of conflict, I don't think you can really avoid that.
I think ensuring everyone has access to basic human needs is great, but seemingly not everyone agrees with that
loud flax
well America has all kinds of groups who are divided against each other
weary lake
I think every country has all kinds of groups that are against each other. Maybe the US moreso than others, but I don't think the US is alone in that regard.
Groups having different viewpoints is fine by me, as long as it stays relatively civil.
shut vine
Is it not possible some slaves were worse off after attaining freedom?
Morality is subjective though, psychologists have done enough studies to prove that.
shut vine
Good news everyone, Vladimir Putin has labelled the claims against Hunter Biden as absolutely false.
elder portal
all hail our supreme leader
labeling things as they are when it benefits his end goals
dusky raft
slavery has had multiple viewpoints when it came to justifying the practice, and varied on the region. When it came to slavery in the americas, it had a religious viewpoint.
The problem is that the left had muddied the waters when it comes to slavery and mainly focuses on the american south compared to other regions of the world that still had slaves or saw the aftermath of slavery
I mean hell, how the US got its slaves is an interesting topic
shut vine
Yes, it's not like there was an off the books meeting between Joe Biden and a Burisma exec that Joe Biden "has never met", and it's not like there is a picture of him in the Whitehouse and on a golf course with Joe Biden.
mystic ermine
ACB confirmed
shut vine
Yeah, expected.
Bar a problem in the closed hearings generally that's how it goes in a unified exec/senate.
Be interesting if Biden sticks to his previous statements about packing the court being bad if he wins.
mystic ermine
I mean, he's refusing to answer the question now
Well, actually
His answer was, "you don't deserve to know"
shut vine
Yeah, it would be bad if he did.. it's a nuclear option, once one person does it everyone will do it
Yeah it's a "you'll find out when I'm elected".
torpid bear
Do you guys remember that he promised to make a bipartisan commission to look into improving the court system? He’s not packing it. He’s come up with an alternative (and in my opinion better) to the issue of some people thinking the supreme court is biased. Unlike the current president, he actually plans to gather some information about the situation before making a decision.
weary obsidian
i heard some idea of aligning # of judges to districts or something
we just need more john roberts on the supreme court
shut vine
I would be in favor of the judiciary branch selecting its own.
Rather than the public picking them or politicians.
weary obsidian
that would be nice too
shut vine
It keeps it less political.
I think ACB will be a good pick, but it remains to be seen.
torpid bear
I heard she’s been evasive in her senate hearings, but I haven’t been following them that closely.
shut vine
She seems like she'll rule in favor of constitution (which is her job) rather than any particular party.
weary obsidian
well see
shut vine
She was as evasive as RBG was.
torpid bear
Ok. Like I said I haven’t been following the proceedings that closely so I don’t really know.
shut vine
Basically she didn't answer hypotheticals. Which nearly every justice has refused to answer for a long time.
If she was to answer it would be grounds to exclude her actually.
Justices are not meant to prejudge cases.
Absolutely correct.
Well
Some may think what they are doing will be seen as wrong.
But they justify it in some way which is why they go through with it.
torpid bear
Yeah. Morality, along with many other things, is entirely subjective.
shut vine
There are a lot of common modern things viewed as immoral.
That doesn't make them objective.
Morality is by its nature subjective, it's based on views. Objectivity is a significantly more factual.
brisk cradle
I need a refund on the past 40 years https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/peteraldhous/political-violence-inequality-us-election
Fuck Amy Comey Barrett.
shut vine
There very well could be. However labelling Trump as authoritarian is pretty offensive to anyone who's lived under the rule of actual authoritarian leaders. Wouldn't expect much else from BuzzFeed though.
weary obsidian
of course hes not to that level, but his path is sure in line with it
shut vine
An example?
weary obsidian
his ignoring of the laws and constant doing things hes not supposed to? him entertaining the idea of not leaving the WH if he loses?
shut vine
What law has he ignored?
weary obsidian
his whole mixing the government with his personal finances for one
personally profitting off the job
shut vine
That's a reasonable area where he may have broken the law. So would you also say Obama was authoritarian if that's your measure of an authoritarian leader?
torpid bear
How is it reasonable for someone to break the law?
shut vine
I'm not overly a fan of how the republicans handled that specifically.
I was more saying it's a reasonable accusation.
weary obsidian
i didnt say he was authoritarian, I said he exhibited a path towards it. he does whatever he wants regardless of the law
torpid bear
Can you provide proof that they broke the law?
shut vine
There is the same level of evidence in both situations, both situations have not been proven to a reasonable legal standard.
They are just accusations, in one instance the individual has been impeached and acquitted. Though I don't believe the process was done correctly in that case.
weary obsidian
@autumn lotus iirc there was a direct order to withhold it for illegal reasons. whether or not that order was rescinded "in time" is irrelevant.
shut vine
Not to confuse that with I think he's guilty, though the senate should have called witnesses.
Yeah, it's questionable that the President blocked that.
It would probably be a matter for the supreme court, as to if it was constitutional.
weary obsidian
Under the Impoundment Control Act, it is illegal for OMB to withhold money that has been appropriated by Congress and signed into law.
dont think it needs a supreme court review to analyze that
shut vine
OMB?
torpid bear
Office of budget management (technically Office of Management and Budget)
weary obsidian
its in the link i sent, pasted from that
shut vine
So then it wasn't Trump who broke the law, it was OBM
I just read the preamble and concluded it was roughly accurate for the sake of expediting the conversation.
torpid bear
OMB is part of the executive branch, and is directly under trump
weary obsidian
wasnt there a voice recording or something of trump being the one to order it
shut vine
It's likely an EO. Which the President can legally make any EO, it has to be challenged via the judiciary branch if someone feels it's not in line with the law.
Let me do a quick read
torpid bear
It isn’t the job of the courts to impeach the president. The constitution explicitly gives that power to congress.
shut vine
It's the courts job to decide if an EO is lawful.
Not congress.
However reading of the ICA seems to include the president, reading it now.
loud flax
Morality is subjective though, psychologists have done enough studies to prove that.
@shut vine when I refer to morality, I"m not talking about personal preferences. I'm talking about values that transcend one's preferences and if one were to adhere to those values, they would be better off
shut vine
I'm really curious about this one, would love to hear the recording. Also it sounds like it's the funding that Biden threatened Ukraine with as well.
Ah regarding the Senate and how it conducts the proceedings, the constitution basically allows them to decide how an impeachment proceeding works.
That's a huge oversight
Yeah okay, so, the money that Trump possibly blocked, which was approved by congress; Joe Biden threatened to block as leverage to get the "corrupt" prosecutor investigating Burisma fired.
GAO has also found the whitehouse broke the ICA in 2011.
@weary obsidian so the ICA was broken in both Administrations according to the same entities. https://cdn.cnsnews.com/attachment/GAO-OPINION-10-11-2011.pdf https://www.cnsnews.com/article/washington/terence-p-jeffrey/gao-obama-white-house-violated-law-engagements-china https://www.gao.gov/assets/660/650532.PDF
dusky raft
@shut vine I dont remember, did the house even impeach Trump on freezing the funding?
I think it was obstruction of the house and something else
shut vine
Yeah he was impeached, and acquitted in the senate. Was part of the single impeachment of Trump.
Was just one of the articles.
I kind of disagree with how the senate handled it, but it was within the law.
dusky raft
yeah, but I dont think the two charges were related to ukraine?
abuse of power and obstruction of Congress
ah yes, they were related
shut vine
"[T]he impeachment inquiry has found that President Trump, personally and acting through agents within and outside of the U.S. government, solicited the interference of a foreign government, Ukraine, to benefit his reelection. In furtherance of this scheme, President Trump conditioned official acts on a public announcement by the new Ukrainian President, Volodymyr Zelensky, of politically-motivated investigations, including one into President Trump's domestic political opponent. In pressuring President Zelensky to carry out his demand, President Trump withheld a White House meeting desperately sought by the Ukrainian President, and critical U.S. military assistance to fight Russian aggression in eastern Ukraine."
Ukraine was 100% part of the impeachment, and that specific ICA violation was as well.
dusky raft
yeah, it didnt shock me the democrats didnt go further other than abuse of power
considering biden
I still dont agree we should be sending $400 million to countries...
thats just insane
shut vine
It was 1,000 million I believe, maybe I'm wrong.
Originally that is the amount congress approved.
Sorry, not approved, appropriated.
dusky raft
I think we need to stop giving money out to other countries
shut vine
I'm 50/50. If it was legitimately to curtail Russia's influence in the region maybe.. but why not just spend it on establishing a foothold in the area.
dusky raft
yeah
I honestly think the US should operate like a private military when it comes to being overseas
shut vine
There are rumors/allegations the money was funneled via Ukraine to enemies of the US, but that's thus far unsubstantiated and even if true it'd be unlikely to be proven.
dusky raft
no, we dont even see where it goes when it leaves our hands
shut vine
And there is no point in focusing on innuendo with these people, may as well focus on what can be proven (with all of them, Trump/Pence, Obama/Biden).
dusky raft
oh they are all involved in some money laundering schemes,
considering how much money goes through DC
shut vine
I think Trump has done wrong, but the media is making it hard to figure out the specifics.