Like, that law should be on the books for obvious cases so the most egregious cases can be taken down but it's not going to stop it from happening
#politics
foggy fern
Actually that law probably is on the books it just requires intent instead of recklessness
dusky raft
wouldnt shock me due to how complex federal/state/local code is
foggy fern
tldr is basically the legal system isn't equipped to handle this, #BanCrowder
brisk cradle
FYI, this is something the right rakes Maduro rightfully over the coals for https://apple.news/AXGzRzrIkRGSiTK69yR3nlQ
But when God-Emperor-Fuhrer Daddy Trump does it it is suddenly ok
torn wadi
shut vine
Wouldn't discriminating against people with mental disorders be against the rules here?
near glen
It is
Where did you see that?
https://twitter.com/MladaSlovenija/status/1316700897586688002
@torn wadi what's that about?
torn wadi
New CV-19 regulations.
Usually the publish new numbers at 12:00, but on the 13.10 they didn't, everyone assumed it would be 500 cases, was actually 707 (before retroactive additions), same goes for today, no new numbers.
Most of the people making all the noise are people who are actively working on replacing democracy in our county. While using the worsening CV numbers as excuses to pass what ever they want.
shut vine
Well the WHO is now saying lockdowns are harmful.
opal moat
Of course they are harmful, no one has ever doubted that, but not having them is more harmful
shut vine
That's not what the WHO is saying though
opal moat
Same as oxygen, it slowly kills you but not breathing it kills you a bit faster
mystic ermine
That's actually a debate point
Some scientists are advising that lockdowns don't help
shut vine
That being said I never trusted them
mystic ermine
The issue is that the people who are the most vulnerable are the ones who are fucked the hardest
shut vine
Yeah, in Australia the "medical experts" are demanding the lockdowns end.
mystic ermine
e.g. families who can't work from home, people with mental health issues who are already teatering on the edge of being locked without much human contact for almost a year now
opal moat
The word lockdown is so overused, there was no actual lockdown in Germany or Austria and yet people keep saying there will be a second one
shut vine
That's what the MSM say anyway, group of 500 experts in the field and growing, apparently.
opal moat
e.g. families who can't work from home, people with mental health issues who are already teatering on the edge of being locked without much human contact for almost a year now
The trick for that is being mentally so unstable that a lockdown makes no difference
shut vine
Well, there is a significant rise in individuals having suicidal thoughts who've not had them in the past in my country.
It's also taking a huge toll on relationships, 45% spike in separations if my memory is correct.
mystic ermine
for a lockdown to have worked, it would need to be like a month long, the issue there is, you still gotta go get your supplies, etc, etc, especially with a virus like covid where the reported numbers are likely much lower due to how it affects some people, it's pretty hard to actually contain such a virus, especially one which spread as crazy and as early as it did
shut vine
Our lockdown is harsher and longer than most other countries though.
mystic ermine
There are infection reports tailing back to like october last I recall
Tier 3, wooo
shut vine
Even though our average daily infections over the last 14 days is under 10.
mystic ermine
only another 4 years to go of this government
how much you wanna bet they're voted back in
shut vine
Well that'll depend on the time, if people are still fearful probably
Conservative governments tend to have a huge advantage when it comes to economic hardship (which is also likely in 4 years) and general fear.
opal moat
I'm planning to visit my mother next week, I hope I'm still allowed into Germany by then lol
mystic ermine
Tories aren't really conservative anymore bar linearage
shut vine
Well, most conservative parties are not really anymore. 😛
But economically I think Tories are.
mystic ermine
I support guy fawkes
mystic ermine
The moronic thing is basically every step this government have took
too late for lockdown to be powerful, left it too early for it to be effective
shut vine
That's pretty much what happened everywhere
shut vine
I don't blame my government for that, I blame them for what happened after
As well as these insane lockdowns
mystic ermine
"hey, lets pull thousands of students from across the UK into living quarters where they're 6 a flat, untested, to sit around in their flats all day because lockdown and in-class teaching not going ahead anyways"
not to mention the threat that they might not be allowed home for christmas
That's just beautiful
shut vine
Here's an interesting one for you. Per capita the UK is 2.0x the daily new cases the US is, and Belgium is 3.5x. News hasn't really mentioned that though.
wraith grail
that is indeed +2 not x2
foggy fern
Belgium is apparently a shit show though, 72.17 cases per 100k
sweet canyon
Oh no
foggy fern
In the US, the state of Wisconsin is at 64.36 cases per 100k
afaik they're doing the worst right now
Those are daily new cases, just to clarify. I know I was disputing someone's numbers for daily new cases but just want to be clear
(this is supposed to be an attack on Biden)
bleak echo
how is that supposed to be an attack?
comparing him to a beloved children's show host?
foggy fern
Beloved children's show host from a swing state even 😛
Rogers was born in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh, and earned a bachelor's degree in music from Rollins College in 1951. He began his television career at NBC in New York, returning to Pittsburgh in 1953 to work for children's programming at NET (later PBS) television station WQED. He graduated from Pittsburgh Theological Seminary with a bachelor's degree in divinity in 1962. He became a Presbyterian minister in 1963. He attended the University of Pittsburgh's Graduate School of Child Development, where he began his 30-year long collaboration with child psychologist Margaret McFarland.
They've got statues and such of him in Pittsburgh
bleak echo
yeah, they have a whole display at the airport
shut vine
USA is 18.188 cases per 100k today, UK was 29.5904, not quite double, my bad. Though your figures are incorrect too.
shut vine
Belgium is 64.22339 per 100k
You'll have to do some math based on the figures there and the respective countries census.
foggy fern
That's the same source I used, plus google result for "$country population"
Except I used the yesterday tab on there because that is the last complete day of numbers
Hmm, maybe I typo'ed a number, I'm getting a different answer now
The math is cases/pop * 100k btw, if someone else wants to double check on their own
They must be constantly changing the data on here still for yesterday though because I'm getting different numbers for all of them now
Not as far off as the US one was though which makes me think it's a data update and not a typo for the other two
My UK number now is 28.48, for example. More than I got earlier but less than James got
shut vine
Yeah USA went up from when I posted too. When I do statistics like this I pop it in Excel with copied formulas to reduce mistakes, I just eyed the numbers and got 2.0 times wrong
I mainly compared USA vs Belgium, since Belgium had a rapid spike lately, but also noted that UK looked high for their population pool so added those too.
WHen I posted earlier USA was at 59,693 cases, now they're at 66,129
64 per 100k daily is more than double USA's highest per 100k in a day.
Highest I can find historically for USA is 24.0518
Over the full pandemic per 100k the death figures are as follows, USA 67.86, Belgium 89.68, UK 64.95.
Keeping in mind determining a death is caused by SARS-CoV-2 is something I'd consider subjective and very likely varies per country and even per state.
near glen
Most just track outcome of cases, you either die or are fine again, or still have it
Whether covid was the (only) cause is really hard to track
viscid saffron
It wouldn't surprise me if some places miscategorized COVID deaths as something else to create the illusion of progress.
opal moat
Austria is 89 tho rn
89,9
So idk where that data is from
Only Vienna is 139
So maybe they looked at the wrong number
Oh
They looked at 14 day instead of 7
Wtf
Dumb
shut vine
Most places are looking at 14 day averages due to the nature of the virus
It wouldn't surprise me if some places miscategorized COVID deaths as something else to create the illusion of progress.
@viscid saffron yeah I can also see places doing it the other way too due to funding considerations, I know there were doctors in California for example being pressured to do so because of state and federal funding.
Accurate? Who knows, the media isn't amazing at telling the truth.
But it's very much a plausible possibility.
I also think Russia, India, China, and Indonesia in particular are hiding accurate numbers, pretty sure they have way more than they're saying.
Either deliberate or by lack of competence, both are probably the case.
near glen
So idk where that data is from
@opal moat this is offical EU data ^^
Ecdc, european center of desise control
opal moat
Yeah, we usually use 7 days instead of 14, that confused me
torpid bear
It’s just like any major disease, all the way back to the Black Plague. Governments downplay the numbers so people aren’t afraid of it.
When people are afraid, they panic and blame the government, so the government covers it up.
weary obsidian
USA is 18.188 cases per 100k today, UK was 29.5904, not quite double, my bad. Though your figures are incorrect too.
@shut vine oh that feels great when my state is over 10% of the daily cases.
near glen
It’s just like any major disease, all the way back to the Black Plague. Governments downplay the numbers so people aren’t afraid of it.
@torpid bear well, even if you look at 14 days, germany is top 4 in europe, it's not for downplaying
foggy fern
I'm not sure if China is fudging the numbers or not, they literally welded the doors shut on homes so people wouldn't go out and spread the virus
Russia either has a genetic factor that makes them survive the virus at abnormally high rates or they're lying about their numbers
deft bronze
The Russians are slavs, so they cure the virus by injecting vodka
foggy fern
iirc their CFR is like 1/4 everyone else
So either they're testing way more, survive the virus much better, or lie about the number of deaths
drowsy scroll
China isn't fudging the numbers, my grandparents and cousins live there and they don't even need to wear masks anymore cause pretty much everyone doesn't have it anymore
they enforced it very hard
however that is not the issue, the issue is the false rumors being spread around
in China
talking to them seems like talking to someone brainwashed sadly
but sometimes life is like that
foggy fern
Yeah in places where they didn't weld the doors shut they also used social shaming, if you did something that could spread it they'd SMS your neighborhood so people know to avoid you
Oh and they probably disappeared some of the people they sent out SMS about after ensuring they weren't sick/got over it
drowsy scroll
Something that is true however, is the US government was shit at handling coronavirus
at least for the beginnning
foggy fern
We still are
drowsy scroll
Indeed
foggy fern
We don't have a national response and what national level advisements we get are contradictory
drowsy scroll
Yeah
Living in Canada doesn't actually seem so bad cause their government looks better xD
(i live in the us though)
bleak echo
Canada is... ok there's loads of room for improvement, but government is afraid to do what needs to be done
shut vine
Jimmy Dore also has a commentary on that which is why I found that video. I like his commentary though.
shut vine
I never knew about this before. Interesting: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-administration-launches-global-effort-end-criminalization-homosexuality-n973081
near glen
Is same sex marriage legal in every state?
shut vine
I am pretty sure it isn't, but it may be. Though in no state is it illegal to be homosexual.
mystic ermine
Afaik, no
Just, it's not illegal ^
The issue with how US law works is that it's really up to states to implement their own laws within the bounds of federal law, etc
e.g. federal law is that weed posession is criminal
Yet, several handful of states allow it on the pervue that it's not really a crime which is federal level until you're shipping enough, not to mention the implications of the feds coming into the state to arrest people ends on a weird slippery slope
smoky hedge
I’m not super familiar with how the US state vs federal system works... but wouldn’t feds arresting someone in a legal state for marijuana possession break the whole independence of the state thing?
mystic ermine
Pretty much, yea
hence the "weird slippery slope"
if you was crossing state borders, it would be more of a thing for them to strike on it
I mean, I'm a brit, so, I might have some level of inaccuracy but I did google that one to try to confirm it
torpid bear
There was actually a case where feds confiscated a bunch of weed in California and the Supreme Court decided that they weren’t allowed to take it because of the state law.
Idk for sure about crossing state borders though
loud flax
if marriage is a biblical institution, then why is everyone else trying to manipulate it? As a Christian, I'm concerned with some of the things people are trying to push for in today's world
dusky raft
I see two portions in it, both as a religious/legal aspect
loud flax
i feel a little nervous while saying this, which I don't think I should be
but it's such a hot issue
as someone that feels sympathy towards others, there might be more of a legal way to represent non heterosexual relationships, such as a union
dusky raft
what the LGBT community wants to do is change the legal aspect, which I think is fine. BUT, personally, I dont see any gain in marriage other than the government saying they are together
loud flax
but a religious institution should stay a religious one, so if there is a way to push the issue, it ought to take a secular route
dusky raft
histoically and in christian society, its meant to bring a stronger family bond, ie, make kids
loud flax
i shouldn't be pushing for anything secular, but if there's a way to resolve the conflict, that would be nice
loud flax
yes, and as far as i've talked to atheists, their understanding is that morality is subjective
near glen
Which is why laws are a thing?
If all your moral is based on religion, all hope is lost
loud flax
at least they are attempting to be objective
near glen
Laws evolve, religion doesn't
loud flax
i try to act how Jesus would in a situation
near glen
It's still based on the same old fairytales
Why not act like a good person would?
Cut out the middle man
loud flax
because what is good then?
near glen
That's subjective, as interpretation of books like the bible or the coran or the tora are
dusky raft
government can always change morality at a whim, thats my issue with it. While Im not taking the defense of religion, I do take issue when science/man become gods themselves
near glen
Shouldn't the morals be the foundation of your constitution?
loud flax
yes, so why change them
loud flax
morals, if they are objective, will never need to change, the problem is when people change
near glen
Because they didn't exist back then the stories were made up
loud flax
i like to take an extreme route when talking about objective concepts like love. I'll refer to a black musician named Daryl Davis that created friendships with members of the KKK, resulting in them leaving the Klan, and some even handing him their robes
dusky raft
Religion masks said challenges, and the unknown
The problem I do have is that again, science suplants itself as supreme and all knowing, however, we still dont have answers science questions
loud flax
i'd argue the world is the way it is now because there's far too much of, "Ah this feels good!" rather than, "Ok, this is what I need to do!"
near glen
The cool thing about science is that when know new things, we don't fear the turn over old theories
Man I can't write
Science is based on facts, the more we know and connect, the more concrete understanding of the world we have
Religion on the other hand is based on fairytales written hundrets of years ago when humanity was in a dark place
loud flax
is that a straw man, or id there actual data for that?
near glen
For what exactly?
loud flax
religion created due to being in a dark place
near glen
Oh I meant that as in we didn't knew shit about anything and had to believe in magic
near glen
What does agnostic mean?
dusky raft
unsure about religion
loud flax
someone who doesn't know, feels that knowledge of the supernatural cannot be known
near glen
I don't care about religion at all
It's actively harmful to the development of mankind
It only creates conflicts and wars
loud flax
i feel like that is a very common argument against religion
dusky raft
and science cant do the same thing?
near glen
We have a war going on in europe at the very moment because of that
Azerbaijan is invading azack or whatever it's called
dusky raft
you have a militant china now and in the past, the USSR, both hated religion and wanted it wiped from the face of the earth
both are atheist states
loud flax
and why don't you think that will happen in America if it becomes anti-religious?
dusky raft
yes, because their views dont match the "scientific" viewpoint
near glen
I don't want anyone to become anti religious, that divides stuff again
I want religions to disappear all together
loud flax
religion brought us our universities and modern education system
wheat tinsel
I want religions to disappear all together
let's pray this happens
loud flax
maybe you're just not looking for that value
near glen
What value is there for you then if you don't mind sharing?
wheat tinsel
it's important to note the distinction between religious beliefs and organized religion
near glen
Oh fuck all religious institutions, those are worse than the Religion itself
wheat tinsel
the real issue is organized religion trying to profiteer from people's beliefs, wage wars etc
near glen
Child exploitation left and right without consequences
loud flax
when it comes to my denomination specifically, we are Seventh-Day Adventists, with high value on nutrition and social affairs, and one of the longest living people in the world
near glen
That means absolutely nothing to me, can you be a bit more concrete?
wheat tinsel
religion on its own (as a generic term) isn't necessarily bad nor is it in conflict with science. They both have their uses
loud flax
alright, let me share something that came from research my dad did into the influence of Christianity: the education aspect of it. It was brought into a world where education was saved for a minority of the population, branched out into the wider world and brought us our educational systems
dusky raft
The problem with atheism is that going to war on religion kinda defeats the purpose of atheism
loud flax
Christianity advocated against slavery in the 19th century
loud flax
ok
near glen
What concrete value does religion serve to your daily life or mankind as a whole?
loud flax
the one word i thought of when you asked that was peace
alright so
@near glen you mentioned a war in Europe right now over religion? What is this over specifically?
wheat tinsel
one could argue religion offers a base of moral codes
near glen
Azerbaijan is invading a disputed territory that is inhabited by armenians who has a different religion
loud flax
sounds to me like another crusade, something I'm quite against
I'm for missionary work, but not when it's about threatening others
near glen
Ah yes, missions
Hur dur you better believe our shit now cause your shit sucks
Or better, we are the chosen ones and bright to you barbarians the light of knowledge
But we getting distracted
dusky raft
ah, I see whats going on, Armenia is majority christian, Azerbaijan is majority islam
also, welcome to the middle east
loud flax
ah....
near glen
What concrete value does religion serve to your daily life or mankind as a whole?
^
ah, I see whats going on, Armenia is majority christian, Azerbaijan is majority islam
@dusky raft it's europe
near glen
It's the border of europe
near glen
It's at the border of europe, doesn't matter anyways, it's a ware about religion that's totally unnessasary
Can we go back to the question of what value religion provides to ppl nowadays?
dusky raft
I dont think it can be summed up as a whole, but personally, religion can provide answers or a bigger part of a grand universe
people dont like being told, oh hey, its a cold existence, suck it up, we all go back to the void someday
near glen
Ok, so you need some nice stories to make your brain cope with the facts?
wheat tinsel
Can we go back to the question of what value religion provides to ppl nowadays?
people resort to religion to "explain" things they cannot fully understand through other means and that's perfectly valid. Most would go insane otherwise
side note: i am not religious, mostly playing devil's advocate here
dusky raft
yes, stories can provide insight on moral values on a society
its why europe bases its morals on christian values
and north america
and not say radical islam's values
loud flax
at this point, you're wanting to look at the fruits of said religion, not whether religion itself is valuable. And it doesn't appear that Islam bears good fruit, or perhaps they aren't living up to what their book teaches? I'm no expect, but that is something to think about
dusky raft
I also dont believe the two world wars were even caused by religion
some of the most destructive wars
sure, both allies and axis claimed god was on their side, but it was more about nationalistic pride
near glen
and north america
@dusky raft the same christian values that allow us to watch ppl drown in the Mediterranean? ^^
wheat tinsel
technically almost all wars were caused by greed, religion is often just the excuse
dusky raft
you mean the migrant boats going to italy?
dusky raft
The problem is that charities are enabling this action
near glen
Not really christian
dusky raft
rather than try to actually help africa
wheat tinsel
here in greece people tried to do their best to help, but there's simply too many of them and not enough budget for it
near glen
Maybe because europe and their stupid colonialism turned it into that
dusky raft
wasnt any better before
dusky raft
so kings/tyrants that enabled slavery LONG before europe joined the fray was just?
near glen
here in greece people tried to do their best to help, but there's simply too many of them and not enough budget for it
@wheat tinsel well, become the EU can't get their shit together and help greece
so kings/tyrants that enabled slavery LONG before europe joined the fray was just?
@dusky raft wasn't that part of colonialism?
pseudo hornet
not rlly tribes that sacrifice people and mutilate them
dusky raft
no
wheat tinsel
not just that but there's also pressure from Turkey making things even worse
near glen
not just that but there's also pressure from Turkey making things even worse
@wheat tinsel yeeeaaah, that dum dictator over there is a real pain in the ass, he is finanzing the war of azerbaijan btw
wheat tinsel
and europe's response is just sending strongly worded letters
near glen
As he did in syria and lybia
dusky raft
Multiple forms of slavery and servitude have existed throughout African history, and were shaped by indigenous practices of slavery as well as the Roman institution of slavery [11] (and the later Christian views on slavery), the Islamic institutions of slavery via the Arab slave trade, and eventually the Atlantic slave trade.[12][4] Slavery was a part of the economic structure of African societies for many centuries, although the extent varied.[13][4] Ibn Battuta, who visited the ancient kingdom of Mali in the mid-14th century, recounts that the local inhabitants vied with each other in the number of slaves and servants they had, and was himself given a slave boy as a "hospitality gift."
near glen
Ah ok
wheat tinsel
i think the main point is that colonialism made things worse
near glen
Well, most of the refugees come from lybia and syria anyways
wheat tinsel
they didn't invent slavery obviously
dusky raft
no, colonialism did make things worse in the aspect where local warlords gained more power if they worked with Europe
that way, whatever empire had a local ruler to work things out in their stead
wheat tinsel
Well, most of the refugees come from lybia and syria anyways
a lot other people sneak in since there's lack of border control/organization
dusky raft
It never made much sense to not just toss the entire power structure, but instead keep the people in power as sort of a governor, as replacing an entire power structure wont end well
near glen
a lot other people sneak in since there's lack of border control/organization
@wheat tinsel don't christian values mean to give asylum to ppl in need?
Am not an expert on that tho
wheat tinsel
yes ofc
near glen
Ok, you are supposed to help when ppl come knowing at your door, right?
wheat tinsel
but in most cases it's impossible to accommodate that amount resulting in them drowning in the sea or later dying of hunger/cold etc
near glen
Not send them back to drown in the sea
We are Europe, we are one of the most powerful area economically
Surely we are able to help them
wheat tinsel
one would think that yes
near glen
But we don't want to
wheat tinsel
as you so eloquently said before, Europe needs to get its shit together
near glen
I regonize you got a different view as some ofx from Greece, europe let's you alone in the rain
Heck, even germany can't help cause hur dur if we are the only ones helping no other country in europe will help
Man, I hate politics
wheat tinsel
My opinion/hope is that Europe can become a little more federated/centralized (while still maintaining the current state autonomy).
near glen
Yes pls
Fuck off with veto rights
Give the parliment the power to initiate laws
Cause you know, that's how a democracy would work
wheat tinsel
oh boy, democracy at its current form has a ton of issues. It's so far from what it was supposed to be.
near glen
Well, it can still work
Just need a bunch of different parties and a powerful parliment
wheat tinsel
Understandably, it became more indirect as populations grew. But now we have the opportunity to use technology to remake it direct
near glen
I like the direct stuff the Swiss has been doing for a while now
wheat tinsel
It's almost an oligarchy nowadays
near glen
Simple yes or no votes on select topics
wheat tinsel
yes Swiss referendums are a step in the right direction
dusky raft
They dont have a direct democracy like many people think, I think they call it a semi-direct democracy in which they are still a republic, but they do have some aspects that do a direct democracy
of course, its not every decision
near glen
Ye ye
wheat tinsel
legal system is particularly corrupted due to the low amount of people involved in the final decisions. Imo it would be beneficial to allow ordinary citizens to take part in it, say a couple thousands. Something similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliaia
near glen
It's a few speech topics that need to meet some criteria or smth
dusky raft
However, their small population compared to larger countries, they can do that
near glen
I don't see why it wouldn't scale tbh
dusky raft
doing a direct democracy in the US would be a disaster, unless it can be done on a state by state level
though, honestly, we do need to fix our voting security setup before getting around to actual reforms
near glen
What's wrong with it?
dusky raft
everything? I cant believe how both sides complain when things dont go their own way
but for one, voter ID
second, stop all ballot harvesting
third, make voting a national holiday
forth, only citizens go towards a census representation
We should also reform how campaigns go, because early campaigning is just counter productive
near glen
Here you don't need to register to vote, you just get notified where to vote, if you wanna vote somewhere else you can request that, or you can request your mail ballot
Also votes are on Sundays so everybody can attend and we got stations at like every other school so you don't need to wait long lines
Ballots are just handled by normal mail, I drop them of where I would drop of my other letters
Oh and obviously you don't need to be a millionaire here to become a candidate
You cant even donate to candidates
Your party funds you
And parties are funded by the gov
Based on how many votes they got in last election and how much money they make elsewhere I think
Works pretty well
brisk cradle
Lee Carter says the truth. https://twitter.com/carterforva/status/1316841488073068544
viscid saffron
I dislike the term "poverty draft".
shut vine
I’m not super familiar with how the US state vs federal system works... but wouldn’t feds arresting someone in a legal state for marijuana possession break the whole independence of the state thing?
@smoky hedge This is pretty much why RBG didn't like the Roe v Wade decision, she felt it should be a choice for the states.
As far as specifically the DEA and state laws on drugs, it's complicated. Technically I think until 2018 drugs were illegal at a federal level (schedule I), thus the DEA had the jurisdictional power to arrest people in legal states, ever since the 1970 controlled substances act.
In 2018 Trump signed into law a bill which I forgot the name of that removed medical hemp with a low THC concentration from the Schedule I list, which means this is no longer the case, it gives states control again.
That doesn't address recreational high THC versions, but it's a step towards less federal control.
I think there was also a memorandum in 2013 by the DOJ regarding not prosecuting federal cases that were legal in the states under which the federal crime was committed (marijuana related only). But it wasn't law, just priorities. I think Jeff Sessions rescinded it.
Regarding religion, it's true many have used it as an excuse / logic for wars. I don't believe that in itself is a reasonable reason religion should vanish. I think any belief system including ethics can be utilized to rally a country to war.
It's not specifically about the religion in my opinion, it's about the rhetoric. "China is murdering people by harvesting their organs while they're still conscious for matters of the conscience (political/religious views)" could effectively drag a country into a war as well, and realistically could be fabricated to drag people into a war.
Also the crazy people who legitimately believe that's what god would want/wants them to do, will still find another reason to be crazy, the ones just using it to manipulate the public into supporting it will find something else to use, and the ones who legitimately feel it's immoral not to intervene will still find the same thing compelling under a system of ethics.
loud flax
Religions have teachings. If those teachings bear individuals who can advance the world around them, that's awesome. People that go against the teachings are the problem. However, some religions have teachings that would outright hurt the world around them. ISIS, a radical version of Islam, is such a thing. Atheism has no teachings, unless you want to consider science its doctrine. As that stands, you want to look at how it shapes the world around it.
so to say that religion is bad outright is an unfair statement, it has to be looked at a lot closer than that
brisk cradle
@viscid saffron But it's completely true.
restive seal
@loud flax Are any religions without harmful teachings, though?
mystic ermine
most of the secular based religions I know have a "it's your duty to kill those who don't follow the book"
loud flax
@restive seal oh taken out of context, yeah for sure, but perhaps even genuinely taken in context
restive seal
wut
loud flax
if you try to live by a rule you don't completely understand, it could have consequences
restive seal
You said:
some religions have teachings that would outright hurt the world around them
I'm wondering if there are any that do not , looking for examples.
restive seal
Since it's paywalled but you seem to have access @viscid saffron what percent of the recruitable age range meet the "poorest" definition here? Like, if "poorest" by their definition only hits like 1% of potential recruits having 11% of recruits obviously still be an issue
viscid saffron
Lower 20%.
restive seal
thanks
viscid saffron
shut vine
I mean, if the government excluded poor people from military service that would be a pretty big ethical problem wouldn't it?
dusky raft
The draft hits harder in conservative areas
viscid saffron
To most Americans, "draft" typically refers to the activation of the selective service process.
dusky raft
yeah
I believe there are deferments for people in college
but I dont have enough info on that
BUT given if we do activate selective services, Im pretty sure that classification is going to be treated as unrestricted considering the amount of people going into college compared to when selective service was first created
viscid saffron
The bigger problem with recruitment, in my opinion, is the fact that 80% of the military's members come from military families, which leads to a disconnect.
dusky raft
yeah, conservatives are known to go into the military more often than liberals
more military oriented people I have met are more conservative in nature
ah yes, student deferment was discontinued
near glen
Easy fix, defund the military
Works great for germany
If you ignore that trump is yelling at us every now and then
- runs *
viscid saffron
That's a joke, right? @near glen
viscid saffron
What do you mean waste?
near glen
you put money in and only get wars back
bleak echo
don't forget the military bases around the world where soldiers and expensive contractors get paid to sit around and be bored
viscid saffron
It depends on the location.
shut vine
I pretty much agree, America should spend less on "national" defense. All the nations who rely on them for military power can figure out national defense on their own.
Bring the troops home, spend the defense budget effectively, and reallocate stuff used to protect other nations back at home.
shut vine
Trump has done a lot to withdraw their troops lately, which is a good sign.
Not specifically implying anything. Just think that specifically is a waste for them to constantly be in these endless wars allegedly for the sake of other nations.
America has enough issues of its own to sort out, NATO nations have relied on them too much in recent history. I don't specifically know what country you are from.
near glen
See, america thinks it needs to protect everybody
But we don't care
Nor want your protection
shut vine
I'm not American
near glen
Ppl are protesting against your military base here
Because it's used to commit war crimes in the middle east with ya drones
Ah
shut vine
Yeah I agree
It's something I respect a lot about Truman, resisted WWII for such a long time, gone are those days it seems.
sharp bronze
@near glen last summer America withdrew 12,000 troops from Germany and they cried about it
A lot of European nations that make fun of America for not having socialized healthcare wouldn't be able to pay for it themselves if America wasn't basically paying for their national defense too
near glen
We didn't cry about it?
sharp bronze
The American army is an imperialist terrorist organisation, but the white countries that rely on it at the expense of American minorities who pay the bill are the last people who should complain
near glen
Iirc ppl cried about the how
That there was no communication
Which is to expected from trump tbh
Wtf are white countries?
sharp bronze
That there was no communication
@near glen
Nato member are supposed to pay a quota to support the effort. Germany didn't pay it and after some warnings us troops were moved to other European states that also don't pay their quotas
near glen
Nonono, america things we are supposed to pay a quota
We call that a waste of money
We don't fight wars in the middle east as a hobby like the US
So we don't need to spend that much
sharp bronze
Then why complain when America doesn't fund thousands of troopers on your soil
near glen
As I said, ppl just complained about the lack of communication
We don't care that you are gone
You leave a newly build training facility behind we can use now 😂
near glen
It's the most modern training facility outside the us or smth iirc
sharp bronze
Apparently the people agree with the move
sharp bronze
But almost all political parties were butthurt about it
Telling
I mostly saw the news about the politicians then
near glen
"One of the bases that will be affected in Bavaria is Grafenwöhr in the Upper Palatinate region, which has one of Europe’s largest and most modern military training areas, while the famous 2nd Cavalry Regiment is to return to the USA from its base in the nearby town of Vilseck."
sharp bronze
The 2% spending is a nato requirement
Oh
Why do we still have 24k soldiers in Germany tho
Insane
Think of how many homeless we could feed
near glen
Well, as that article explained, it's more expensive to move them than to keep them
You are building new bases in europe
And in the US
To have place for the troops
If you wanna save money, you gotta fire them
Also, the 2% is a goal
With target of 2024
We stay as close to the goal as the US stays to the climate goals :*
sharp bronze
Or put them to work on building hospitals and houses instead of blowing up brown children or eating sausages in Germany
sharp bronze
Joachim Streit, a regional administrator, said the cost of withdrawing the troops would not only be felt in the United States. US citizens spend about Є100 million ($117.5 million) per year on rent, restaurants and other goods and services in the vicinity of Spangdahlem.
near glen
I guess that's why our politicans cared
We don't care about the troops per se
We just want you to eat our food 😂
sharp bronze
Again wtf
@near glen
I know American troops might seem like a free gift or a nuisance in Europe countries, but in the rest of the world they tend to "liberate" anywhere with oil and the greatest threat to freedom seem to be children's
Considering how fond the us is on blowing them up
near glen
That's not why I said wtf, you are bringing racial terms into this
I know that the US fight wars as a hobby and don't care about the consequences
sharp bronze
Word
near glen
Which is why we (as in, our population) doesn't want to have anything to do with that
The central drone control is still in germany
sharp bronze
Meh half of the articles there are about how this is all a ploy to let Russia conquer Europe
At least ita what the politicians were whining about
near glen
Ours?
sharp bronze
Those too
near glen
Iirc that's what murica is saying, we need to protect europe from the bad bad Russians
When murica has become as bad
sharp bronze
No the EU really likes the idea of an European army
So they fear monger about Russia
Great
We need just another imperialist army
near glen
Frontex is already worse 😂
sharp bronze
From fair minded any fascists to the current day racists
But then you find out 320k American soldiers were stationed in Europe after ww2
Bet that's where they got the ideas
near glen
Heh
One would hope that they experiences where would be bad enough to understand that the right specturm is god awful and leads to genozide on minorities
sharp bronze
sharp bronze
Hopefully we are too
near glen
Around 10 percent of our population are estimated to vote for right wing extremists
sharp bronze
Do not give military aid to the Nazis
near glen
But you have to remember. Our right wing extremists are more left than your gov
sharp bronze
America doesn't have left or right wing politicians
They are all corporate puppets
The only normal politicians like Bernie are trampled by ghoul puppets like Biden or Trump
Corporate who will spend billions in ads telling they support good causes like BLM and then turn around and ban black people in their shops in other countries
Or who will happily exploit poor countries to make cheap trinkets for wealthy westerners to enjoy
dusky raft
Or bring in cheap labor in the form of H1B
unreal orbit
restive seal
Four years ago I was promised a taco truck on every corner and I'm still waiting
viscid saffron
aka oil
@near glen Please explain
shut vine
@near glen tbh most polling suggests most Americans want large scale withdrawals too, so it's just a political class thing really.
viscid saffron
To me, it appears neither Ondsinet nor Minidigger fully appreciate the complexity of the US' involvement in the middle east.
near glen
What is there to appreciate? Lol
Thankfully the CIA had to publish bunch of stuff
So we now know that the CIA funded osama bin laden at some point
As support against some other idiots
But the overall goal is and always has been to secure access to oil
The US overturned a democracy in iran because the leader wanted to give the oil money to the ppl
Or was it Irak?
I don't remember
1953 mussadek in Iran
CIA basically created so much chaos in iran that the military did a putch and implemented a dictator
That's when this whole mess started
There is a cool german clip that explains all this in a funny way while still based on facts
Lemme see if there is a subtitled version
It's really worth the watch
@viscid saffron
dusky raft
oh we have been in the middle east for far too long, 70s/80s, maybe longer
near glen
As I said, it started in 1953 when the CIA basically removed mussadegh
Because he wanted to give back the oil to his ppl
This isn't some conspiracy theory, this is history
But hey, the USA are the good ones amiright?!?!
dusky raft
This is why I dont think the CIA/FBI or any intelligence agencies should have this much oversight with little accountability
near glen
I mean
At least they are required to open documents now
Obama played a huge part in this btw
Under his administration the freedom of information act was reformed in 2016 I think
dusky raft
the cia needs to get out of military affairs in general, knowing they do provide some direction in going to war in the middle east and other countries
near glen
Obama is actually the only president that kinda tried to apologise to the ppl in the middle east
And of course got criticised for it by the Republicans 😂
Cause hur dur murica is great we don't make mistakes only weak make mistakes
viscid saffron
Please drop the bias.
dusky raft
Obama really didnt fix the situation either
viscid saffron
Or at least provide some basis for your claims.
dusky raft
@viscid saffron which person?
viscid saffron
Not you.
dusky raft
ah ok
viscid saffron
Martin
near glen
It's not bias?
viscid saffron
Without basis for the claims, it is.
near glen
He went on tour in 2009 to those countries
viscid saffron
Cause hur dur murica is great we don't make mistakes only weak make mistakes
@near glen Evidence?
Seems like anecdotal nonsense.
near glen
That's something romney said in the 2012 presidential debate
viscid saffron
Clip?
near glen
Am on phone
It was the third one
Am sleep now
https://youtu.be/57fMqUl-sng
Again, give this one a watch, it's purely based on facts you can Google it you don't believe german public TV
dusky raft
I dont see romney as republican
near glen
I don't give a shit about your parties, it was just an example
It's just that america tried to get access to oil, created a fucking disaster that will take generations to heal, and can't even admit they did something wrong without being critiqued
This has nothing to do with bias, this is just a frustrated citizen of the world being angry about american intervention
dusky raft
Yeah, id love to see the US pull back on all military actions around the world and be more like private contractors than squatting in the middle of nowhere
viscid saffron
That's what I'm saying. Who's to say you're qualified to speak on behalf of "the world"?
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's just that: an opinion.
near glen
It's just that americans need to control their ego. I am a german, I inherited a mess created by my ancestors. I live with that burden and have respect for it, and for the innocent ppl who died. Americans don't have that
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's just that: an opinion.
@viscid saffron these are all facts tho. America did start all this to get access to oil. You can't deny that
viscid saffron
I mean your assertion that the world is frustrated.
mystic ermine
I mean, that's well known, the horror is that the general public wants done with the wars, but, there's money in wars
dusky raft
I dont think americans are denying this other than politicians and intelligence
and anyone who makes a profit in the US going to war
near glen
I mean your assertion that the world is frustrated.
@viscid saffron why wouldn't they? 😂
viscid saffron
That's not proof.
viscid saffron
I don't
viscid saffron
I'm not. You're throwing around vague generalizations and calling it fact.
mystic ermine
They have pride for their country, and a fair chunk of people where heavilg against the government, hence the huge 2016 fuck you vote
viscid saffron
The burden of proof is on you.
restive seal
Some people don't think America is the greatest ever, because they feel it was greater back a few decades ago.
near glen
I just did proof a tons of fuck ups america did in the last 70 years
And they not once apologized for it to the people of the middle east
viscid saffron
@viscid saffron why wouldn't they? 😂
@near glen
near glen
Germany apologized to the Jews btw
viscid saffron
Prove that the world is frustrated. That is the question.
near glen
You are distracting
viscid saffron
Quite the opposite.
near glen
Proof it cat!!!!!!
mystic ermine
gtfo my lawn
near glen
What if I like terrorism?!
viscid saffron
Old prune tag inbound.
mystic ermine
The issue right now is the horror of the damage that's been done, the US in and out of these wars have their own sets of issues, which is concerning both ways
near glen
Again, why can't the US apologize for the mess they have created in the middle east?
dusky raft
I doubt that will make things better
restive seal
I doubt that will make things better
Is this where I insist you justify this claim? 😄
viscid saffron
That doesn't help.
mystic ermine
not really a step if no other action is taken, given the whole nature of parties, I can't see one party willing to stand up on a podium and say it
viscid saffron
It reminds me of Gretta's speech. Talking about climate change doesn't actually help with climate change. Apologizing doesn't improve the conditions for anyone.
dusky raft
@restive seal there are militant groups in the region that dont give a shit if we said sorry?
its not like they will put their guns down and go home
near glen
They hate america for what they have done to their people
That hate can be cured, no?
And no, shooting them up with drones isn't a cure, just fyi
dusky raft
they hate the west in general
dusky raft
They just hate europe less
near glen
That's why 9/11 was in New York and not berlin, right?
That's why 9/11 was in New York and not berlin, right?
dusky raft
Again, its more or less due to recent history, but problems have existed even when europe entered the scene and broke the middle east into regions for the taking
its just they see europe as weak enough to not bother them
near glen
Well, yeah, you could argue mussadegh only got power because he wanted to take back the oil for their ppl from the Brits
But it only escalated when the US entered the region in 1953
To the mess we have now
Sure, nowadays turkey does way more harm down there than the US, but that's how it all started
Anyways, I am getting way to fed up about this
viscid saffron
Likewise
mystic ermine
The general public will and do say that the US gov fucked up
viscid saffron
Yes.
And americans will never admit mistakes anyways
This is what I'm referring to when I talk about vague generalizations.
opaque prairie
i mean its a vague generalization but it is a correct one
opaque prairie
covid response?
viscid saffron
"never"
dusky raft
If its anyone to own up to the mistakes, its congress, but I dont think as the general public we need to atone for our sins other countries says we have to, as that burns even more hatred into both sides.
but as I have said, I think we should pull back all military actions in most places unless they want to pay for us to stay
mystic ermine
The US gov fucked up, if there is valid cause to maintain a presence due to their actions, they should cover that as far as I'm concerned
dusky raft
but we do need to stop giving money to radical governments
pull all financial assistance in africa/asia/south america
restive seal
Giving the money gives us influence though. If we pull out, China moves in more and that's not a happy thought.
dusky raft
a lot of countries shit on the us
a lot of countries
wouldnt shock me if half the countries we give money too are also in bed with china
sharp bronze
@near glen your projection is so evident to anyone that knows anything about history outside of Hollywood movies
The us is a tyrannical force that commited evil ears against undeserving nations for economic gain
But they are only following in the path of your European empires that did literally the same for centuries before
You moral grandstanding for the us worsening the situation in the middle east is correct, but they wouldn't have had much to exacerbate if European nations hadn't already invaded, enslaved those places and then grouped togheder groups with different and clashing cultures in the same borders in their usual ignorance
Again, what you're saying isn't wrong, but it's such a ridiculous scene, like watching someone make a big speech about how disrespectful this child is for looting a burning building, when the person giving the speech set the building on fire himself
restive seal
wouldnt shock me if half the countries we give money too are also in bed with china
Sure, but do you want China to have all the influence over them if we pull out?
near glen
But they are only following in the path of your European empires that did literally the same for centuries before
@sharp bronze repeating mistakes others made is even worse than doing your own mistakes
Yes, europe did a ton a shit too, but I like to believe we are more mature now
sharp bronze
@near glen 🤣
More mature, you still send billions in money and weapons to terrorists or dictators to further your interests
Just because you don't go planting flags around the world doesn't make you less guilty
viscid saffron
Yes, europe did a ton a shit too, but I like to believe we are more mature now
How naïve. Do you mean hosting slave workers that earn money for totalitarian regimes?
You're calling us blind followers, but it appears it's actually you who's the blind follower.
near glen
Not sure what you are referring to?
viscid saffron
That proves my point.
Just because you aren't aware of something and don't know what you're talking about doesn't mean things aren't occurring. To say that one nation is morally superior to another is utter nonsense.
I was referring to the north korean slaves which germany, italy, and poland are known to have hosted.
But it's okay. Germany is morally better than the US, right?
near glen
Can you gimme something to read?
near glen
Interesting, never heard of that before
dusky raft
Im kind of shocked that no one in here has brought up the biden email thing that twitter and social media have been censoring
unless I missed it
near glen
what is there to talk about?
a private company acting on their own policy, thats not really censorship
and you can't hold them accountable anyways
dusky raft
I mean why
near glen
(which is an issue in itself)
dusky raft
kind of why I dont believe in net neutrality considering these same companies advocated for an open internet back in 2015... till now...
near glen
I mean, those are kinda different things?
net neutrality is basically "all packets shall be created equal"
this here now is a company removing content that they think violates their arbitrary policies
dusky raft
so we change the meaning?
near glen
net neutrality doesnt mean no "censorship"
dusky raft
used to be all content be treated equal
dusky raft
so ISPs, private companies, cant be allowed to censor traffic like twitter?
I mean, its kind of counter intuitive when you say twitter should do its own thing
then ISPs should also
near glen
I mean, ISPs provide the infrastructure, they shouldn't have anything to do with the actual content
dusky raft
What I dont see is ISPs tearing down websites/news sites like twitter/google does by removing content from being seen on their platforms
they are still a private company
they provide the hardware much like twitter does for their servers
near glen
which is an issue, yes
but thankfully, at least here in germany, ISPs sue the shit out of our gov when tasked to block individual websites
dusky raft
government telling ISPs to block?
the US government litterally cannot mandate ISPs to do the same thing
near glen
I am not familiar with the details
but gov here asked ISPs before
not sure if its a demand or whatever
dusky raft
its the service providers themselves that decide what to block, if they do so. But, I havent seen a case where telecoms actively block competition by filtering IP addresses or slow down
near glen
re: "illegal" streaming sites
dusky raft
oh, DMCA takedowns
near glen
no
dusky raft
those are treated differently, though I think that is at the datacenter level and not the ISP
near glen
literally blocking websites, mostly at DNS level
dusky raft
yeah, Its why I do call net neutrality bullshit. Just because you mandate that ISPs treat data equally doesnt mean the root-servers are free or content platforms are free. They are just free to use up their bandwidth
brisk cradle
@dusky raft Contrary to your opinion we are already seeing the impacts of net neutrality repeal, primarily as a lever to prop up legacy TV services from the telecoms.
near glen
net neutrality was about ISPs giving benefits to company X (say netflix) over company Y (say hulu) as in, higher speeds, not counting against datacapts, etc
dusky raft
what impacts?
brisk cradle
But it doesn't matter, legacy TV services are fading away no matter how much money AT&T keeps spending to try and keep it viable
The legacy providers have failed in the market so they've turned to trying to cripple net neutrality instead.
Have you heard of go90?
dusky raft
nope
brisk cradle
Well, it was Verizon's attempt to create a streaming service. That didn't go very well.
dusky raft
but what are ISPs doing?
brisk cradle
Just as I said.
dusky raft
your not saying much
brisk cradle
Verizon's attempt to not be a stodgy telecom has only made them more of a stodgy telecom.
dusky raft
what QoS is verizon using?
what QoS is comcast using?
your not providing any details on that
brisk cradle
Im kind of shocked that no one in here has brought up the biden email thing that twitter and social media have been censoring
AFAIK this is a nothingburger and a pathetic attempt by Trump (on behalf of Russia) to grab votes. It will fail.
dusky raft
all your saying is that they are propping up legacy TV, which by the way, comes with the package these telecoms provide
so we cant investigate biden compared to the 4 YEARS of trump?
brisk cradle
God, I'd hate to be Hunter Biden right now
dusky raft
I think its worth investing a 2 year investigation where the GOP goes on a witch hunt like the democrats did
brisk cradle
Leave the poor guy alone damnit.
dusky raft
then leave the trump family alone
brisk cradle
@dusky raft Hello, 2011 called, they want their Benghazi investigation back.
torpid bear
What “witch hunt” are you referring to?
dusky raft
the mueller investigation?
brisk cradle
The GOP has investigated Benghazi for something like 7 years.
All because they wanted cheap political points against Hillary.
Look, I don't like Clinton.
But I think that's a pretty big waste of time and money.
dusky raft
at the moment, I dont give a damn about benghazi
thats another topic
I want to at least hear what went on in ukraine and china from the bidens
brisk cradle
The GOP's talk about corruption in Ukraine is hilarious given that the Trump administration doesn't care about corruption anyway.
dusky raft
because clearly the records leaked stated hunter used his fathers credentials to get deals
brisk cradle
show me
dusky raft
I would love to if it wasnt fucking removed from everywhere
ill go sifting around once more
dusky raft
much like russia?
brisk cradle
That wasn't a nothingburger, Mueller came very close to outright saying "he worked with Russia in '16"
dusky raft
proof or it doesnt exist
brisk cradle
Meanwhile God-Emperor-Fuhrer Trump is "investigating" things that turn out to be part of the right-wing conspiracy bubble and are abjectly fake.
I ain't got time for this.
dusky raft
My question is when it comes to russia, why invest in trump?
unless they are playing both sides?
because I do want to entertain this
Russia could have clearly went with biden/hillary, considering they control the population centers
torpid bear
Russia backed trump because they knew they could control him
brisk cradle
In '16 there was a clear reason to not go with Hillary Clinton - Russia did not like Obama because of the Magnitsky Act
In '20 the choice was pretty obvious because Trump has pretty much actively encouraged it, and he's been very friendly to Putin
dusky raft
I want to state this here, given what is going on, do you trust the election system in its current state?
do you think biden will win?
brisk cradle
I think Biden will win but the GOP is doing everything imaginable to ensure trust in the electoral system goes to an all-time low.
Not going to be surprised when Trump pre-maturely claims he won re-election after polls close but before any votes get counted
He will try to get his second term, even if he loses the election
dusky raft
and if trump wins?
brisk cradle
All hell will break loose.
brisk cradle
🤣
you shitting me?
go look all the lawsuits they're filing to restrict the franchise in this election
it has nothing to do with voter fraud and everything to do with depressing Democratic turnout
dusky raft
can I get some link to them?
brisk cradle
more than that, the GOP is now engaging in outright electoral fraud in California too
dusky raft
using the same laws democrats enacted?
brisk cradle
No, they are illegal.
and about those lawsuits... https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-is-involved-in-litigation-about-voting-2020-9
they're only doing this, mind you, because Biden is ahead in the polls
dusky raft
vote by mail is a horrible system
torpid bear
It’s better than having everyone get covid
brisk cradle
But once you rebrand it under the name "absentee voting" then voting by mail is pretty cool, right?
torpid bear
And it wouldn’t be as bad if trump hadn’t gutted the post office to make it worse
dusky raft
what should happen would be an enmass abentee request then you get the ballot, rather than enmass mail all together
torpid bear
That’s what most states do
It’s very few that actually send everyone a ballot unrequested
brisk cradle
Explain that internal inconsistency. Oh wait, you can't.
Looking forward to seeing all the electoral fraud cases in Utah, a red state that does universal vote by mail.
dusky raft
I dont know about their system, but how long has it been implemented?
because it looks pretty fleshed out
brisk cradle
Since 2014.
Not universally, but by 2016 much of the state was vote-by-mail and this year all counties are vote-by-mail.
So their system has been in place for six years and it works.
It saves money and it's safer during these times.
dusky raft
I cant say for utah at all, but it does make me wonder how the logistics work and how secure the ballot is during transit
but utah is a safe red state compared to battleground mixed states
brisk cradle
It's a paper ballot sent through the mail. It's illegal to tamper with mail.
brisk cradle
But if they do, they will get caught, and there are consequences for that.
opaque prairie
also think about how much effort it would take to track a ballot through the mail system to tamper with it
dusky raft
It wouldnt be a single ballot
brisk cradle
Yes, my argument is a little dumb, it's almost like saying that my computer is secure because accessing a computer without permission is illegal.
opaque prairie
also note that most ballots arent accepted if they have an evidence of being tampered with after sealing
torpid bear
They should arm the mail carriers
opaque prairie
honestly i am down for that
torpid bear
That’s something they would do in Utah
dusky raft
@torpid bear who said it wouldnt be an insider job?
brisk cradle
But the thing is that there are pretty extensive checks in place.
opaque prairie
i mean
opaque prairie
theyve already fired/arrested several people who have tried to trash/tamper or destroy mail so
brisk cradle
@dusky raft You'd require a pretty expansive conspiracy to modify enough votes to change the results of an election conducted by mail AND manage to keep it under wraps AND get those ballots counted without some sort of trouble with tamper-evident envelopes.
Expansive conspiracies tend to collapse under their weight.
dusky raft
im going to wait till after election if trump wins or biden wins when all the ballots in a ditch were "found" weeks later
opaque prairie
the USPS internal agents are consistently ruthless in their dealings
fast flame
I also just want to point out that the administration is actively trying to make voting by mail less safe. defunding the usps is them enacting and creating the very thing they complain about sooo much.
opaque prairie
yeah, the current administration is doing everything in their power to cripple the USPS, with the intent to make voting by mail less safe
brisk cradle
The chance that conspiracy is never discovered and broken up is very, very low.
torpid bear
Also if there was that bug of a conspiracy, it could be done to ballots cast in person too
*big
opaque prairie
yeah
voting machine software should be under much more scrutiny rn than mail in ballots
brisk cradle
The logistics alone make it implausible that mail-in ballot tampering would swing an election
near glen
https://twitter.com/ElHuffPost/status/1318116415522676737?s=08 lmao
Trump: "If you vote Biden he will listen to the scientists!"
brisk cradle
But the God-Emperor has a very good brain! It's the best brain God ever created, it's truly amazing, best brain.
When you have a very good brain, you can get advice for handling the pandemic from Fox News! It works every time, believe it.
torpid bear
Big T is all you need. Don’t listen to anyone else.
Especially not those nasty scientists, with all that dreadful proof.
fast flame
Daddy Trump won't listen to science. He likes to think in his own big boy brain, not listen to dum dum stupid nerds.
granite glen
Daniel Andrews is a horrible premier and is dangling a carrot (lockdownless life) on a stick that gets extended 2 weeks every 2 weeks.
Longest running and was the stricted. Yesterday we had 4 cases and 1 death
allow an Australian to take the light of trump, bc at least he hasnt made you unable to travel 5km from your house, with 1 hour of exercise permitted.
with mandatory masks, $200 fine, even if you're by yourself
and we cant even protest about it or wish to even talk about doing so without police coming to arrest you for incitement.
the omnibus bill passed bc of the "State of Disaster" we are in shuts down parliament (Senate and Congress)
gives unelected beaurucrats have the power to detain/remove children from homes from those who they deem could be high risk spreads, whether they have covid19 or not
even a sticker on your car about anti-lockdown counts as a protest and will land you with a hefty fine and an incitement charge
Australia - the land that promised free speech and free movement but it was never enshrined in our constitution
altho, it only is a state issue, but the federal government is screaming at him to stop which he just blames them for "playing political games"
opal moat
https://twitter.com/mshelton/status/1318303047647309824?s=19
I'm not sure whether this belongs here or in #memes at this point
foggy fern
tough cedar
yikes
weary obsidian
cant believe the right is so insistent on stopping people from voting but will tell their own voters to vote the same way too
and holy fucking hell @ the password gaffe
brisk cradle
Twitter
@granite glen Perhaps you shouldn't be citing the United States as the gold standard in dealing with COVID-19
Well north of 200,000 Americans are dead, and almost all politicians in our right-wing party are pretty much pretending the virus is gone when it's not
We have allowed Americans to "take the light" and the result is a total disaster
granite glen
oof no, sweden is the way
brisk cradle
Sweden's approach is just as bad
granite glen
its just a common cold
granite glen
i know for a fact if i got it id be fine
brisk cradle
People like you thought that once too. Then they got it, and unfortunately some of them passed away.
granite glen
i wont but ight
people like you are why we are stuck in lockdowns with 1 case per day
the global fear of nothing
brisk cradle
I live in the United States. I've seen people in my small community get the virus. It's real and it's not nothing.
granite glen
you're all clearly unhealthy
brisk cradle
Perhaps you should lay off the alternative facts and get some real information.
brisk cradle
Yeah, I don't like how we don't have universal single payer healthcare, but that has no bearing on the fact COVID Is real and it's serious.
granite glen
i dont need to sell a kidney to get an IV if covid got bad so i just get it bulk billed. thats why our death rate is nothing
what do you suppose
if there isnt a vaccine
or a vaccine you have to take every 6 months too keep up with it
brisk cradle
I don't like drawing conclusions about the future. It's too early to tell if vaccines will provide long-term or short-term protection.
brisk cradle
That is because, surprise, the first vaccines are still pretty late in the clinical testing process, and that's accounting for the fact that timelines have been greatly accelerated.
You are asking me to comment on hypotheticals upon which I have no real expertise to draw upon.
What do you think I am, J. Public Health Authority Doe?
No, I am some random internet lurker who happens to do Minecraft development stuff.
sweet canyon
I saw that they were going to be able to mute the microphones at the next debate, eh?
shy torrent
should've done it before the last one lol
brisk cradle
opal moat
i know for a fact if i got it id be fine
That's great for you, I know for a fact if I got it I'd probably end up in the hospital or dead because of other issues, same as a lot of people. Sure it's probably not bad if you're young and healthy but as soon as you have any precondition it's not that fun anymore
shy torrent
its really just a matter of caring about those around you
opal moat
Apparently that's really hard for some people tho
near glen
opal moat
Mini I already posted that yesterday smh
near glen
It just now showed up in my timeline, smh
opal moat
Daddy Trump thinks I'm smart
torpid bear
So I actually know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who works in a medical field, and he supposedly says we’re probably looking at next summer at the earliest for a vaccine, and that it will still take a long time after that to mass-produce and distribute. Idk exactly how credible/accurate that is because it’s not exactly firsthand info, but it’s what I’ve got so I figured I might as well share it.
opal moat
i mean a lot of scientists have been saying similar things
sharp bronze
The vaccine is already being used in Europe, that's why they have so few cases compared to the us
Trump and his goons are probably preventing access to the vaccine to make sure even more minorities die if the virus
It's not a case that states with more blacks and minorities have the highest deaths, republicans in power have been doing all they can to make sure to keep medical supplies away from the most impacted communities
opal moat
Thats just blatantly false
There is no vaccine yet
The rest of what you said is probably not that wrong, but there is no vaccine so far^^
near glen
The vaccine is already being used in Europe, that's why they have so few cases compared to the us
@sharp bronze wat
We vaccinate against the flue
As every year
That's all
sharp bronze
It's the only explanation on why the republican states have almost zero deaths despite then being troglodytes that don't use masks
opal moat
They used a highly experimental cocktail of different medications that are still in testing and no where near usable for the public
near glen
And there are phase 2/3 trials
For covid vaccines
They used it on Trump, he said so himself
@sharp bronze don't trust anything he says, he's not a credible source
sharp bronze
Well he's cured now
opal moat
If there is a vaccine I suspect it will be availabe in america first, just because we probably have higher standards for testing and stuff
sharp bronze
They wouldn't use experimental stuff on him
near glen
If there is a vaccine I suspect it will be availabe in america first, just because we probably have higher standards for testing and stuff
@opal moat our two vaccine companies are among the most promising tho
sharp bronze
They said it was experimental as an excuse to not give it to poc and finally have their white country
Trump said so himself pretty much
near glen
Please don't spread conspiracy myths if you have no sources to back that up
opal moat
otherwise we would hardly go into lockdown now would we
near glen
For broad public vaccinations you are looking at spring at the earliest
Since these trails take months
To be any usable indicator
sharp bronze
otherwise we would hardly go into lockdown now would we
@opal moat
Nah, it's election year
He'd do anything to keep his power
Even if it means killing of whoever doesn't vote for him
opal moat
I'm not american
opal moat
Congratulations, a state with the highest population density has the most cases, hardly surprising. Please stop spreading conspiracy theories
near glen
It's nothing new that metropolitan areas votes blue whole rual areas vote red, lol
opal moat
as always, correlation is not causation
near glen
It only is if it fits my agenda!
opal moat
I mean, fuck trump and yeah, he'd probably like what you're saying, but that doesn't mean it's actually true
sharp bronze
It's counties
near glen
With no names
So there is no way to actually look at the differences between those counties
You are just assuming
sharp bronze
It's not assuming
If you've been following the news you know
Trump supporters went from being super scared about the virus
Being all racist about it too, the "china virus" we must stop all immigration!
Then all of the sudden they changed tune
Naah, the virus don't exist, stop wearing masks
near glen
Because that's what fox news dicates
near glen
And that's where you stop listing to facts
Good overview of current status of different vaccines
sharp bronze
Only fox news is allowed to lie