reminds me of the before times
#politics
foggy fern
This wasn't really how VP debates are supposed to go though
They were somewhat adversarial but not as much as normal
thorny wing
they were both likely trying to tone it down as a result of the drama of the last pres debate
harris has been far more adversarial on the senate floor
foggy fern
Usually the top of the ticket talks about how they're great and somewhat abstractly how the other side is bad but don't directly attack them while the VP is an attack dog
thorny wing
idk that Ive ever seen pence get that worked up
he seems to stay that same kinda monotone speech sound, normal talking pattern, no matter what
hillary didnt need an attack dog though either
she was her own polarizing figure
as was trump
recent history has fucked all of this up
foggy fern
That's why direct takedowns in presidential debates end up in clipshows, they're somewhat rare but when they land they're huge
They're supposed to talk about their running mates
thorny wing
I think Pence has backed away from his religious views publicly a bit
foggy fern
Their job is to sell their boss for the job, VP doesn't do shit
thorny wing
when he was gov of indiana he was a little more out there
foggy fern
Literally, VP position has zero powers
thorny wing
they walked him back a bit for VP, which has helped
foggy fern
They don't even call for a vote if it's going to be a tie though
McCain's thumbs down was crazy, usually when a vote is called they know how everyone is going to vote already and it's just to get it on the record
Someone to push people in front of a train?
thorny wing
house of cards was pretty great
foggy fern
@thorny wing btw as long as Harris didn't lose she won, Biden is ahead so a tie is great for them
thorny wing
yep
foggy fern
Thus Harris #1, fly #2, Pence #3 😛
thorny wing
same reason they're going to try and reel in trump next vote
voter turn out is higher than its ever been
foggy fern
That's what "likely voters" and margins of error are for
thorny wing
that being said, you should all go out and vote and not count on the polls for jack shit
already higher
foggy fern
It'll only be historically low if absentee ballots get fucked with
thorny wing
I mean, Im speaking broadly as "votes cast"
covid is gonna fuck with the in person
idk how much
foggy fern
For early voting, either in person or absentee, we're currently about 50x what we normally would be
Majority says they aren't in person this year
thorny wing
these are strange times
as we said, recent history has fucked everything up
be interesting to see
clear maple
foggy fern
Less polling places though, due to the expectation that more people will vote absentee and COVID-19 safety concerns
Which is a problem, some places have done less polling places but not allowed absentee
restive seal
I want brought out a big red mute button
foggy fern
Whoa, I totally missed that Harris let slip that Tupac is still alive
I bet she gets in trouble for that one
😂
restive seal
That's no biggie
thorny wing
like to launch it?
certainly takes longer for the ICBM to get there
unless youve got a sub right on the coast or something
restive seal
And yet it it takes trump twice as long to drink a glass of water
thorny wing
oh, I wouldve thought it'd be quicker
most of our processes around nukes are based around the cold war
plenty of horrible stories from that time period
foggy fern
Twitter
thorny wing
I mean if the nuclear device security guy said that he'd probably get in trouble
like if the spy satellite guy tweeted a picture of an image from a spy satellite he'd get in trouble
not an issue for the pres
foggy fern
The process for deciding to launch a nuke and doing so is fairly well known if you know what records to dig through
Just like it's an open secret that all the launch codes are actually just zeros
thorny wing
if we were in a situation where someone had one pointed at us and we were at defcon red omega whatever
it wouldnt take 4 minutes
foggy fern
The dude in the silo can use the code to verify it's an authentic order but if he has reason to believe the nuke should launch and something damaged the communication systems so the code can't be transmitted they didn't want the nukes to sit useless while the US burned
Counter attack with nukes isn't meant to stop their nuke, it's meant to take them down with us
thorny wing
the deadman switch in the US is just that its all so spread out and all over
foggy fern
You'd have to nuke the entire US at once to block that and it still wouldn't work because submarines
thorny wing
they used to keep B52's constantly in the air, with nukes flying around
just in case we needed them
caused some issues when there were accidents actually
mystic ermine
Guys, imma tell you a secret, the launch code is 0 0 0 0
thorny wing
@mystic ermine leaks
foggy fern
MAD doesn't have to be simultaneous, just inevitible
thorny wing
nah
foggy fern
Not really, that's why the guys in the silos can launch the nukes on their own
thorny wing
that's why its a trident
foggy fern
And the guys in the submarines
mystic ermine
Once you fire, other contries are going to fire
Taking out another country would literally be signing your own death certificate
that's how MAD works
thorny wing
if things ever got that tense again, you bet they'd step it all right back up like they had it before, if not further
thats why the real concern isnt a nation, its terrorism
foggy fern
@autumn lotus because fuck those guys, they just killed everyone you know and wiped out your country
foggy fern
No, fuck those guys
thorny wing
fuck those guys is the successful nuclear doctrine of the last... forever
foggy fern
Enough nukes to blanket the US would ruin the planet anyway, might as well kill them now and get some revenge
thorny wing
its not you and me, or your mom
foggy fern
Good chance they'd launch before they even knew it was all gone
thorny wing
it's people who are trained, indoctrinated even if you will, and under orders
foggy fern
Because they're launching as soon as it's clear the attack is real, unless there is still a country to order them not to
Some of them will balk, look at that famous Russian that did over what ended up being a false alarm
But enough wouldn't
thorny wing
the solution to that one is "lots of people" and "set things up so you can give the order rapidly, even if you dont see the end result before dead"
foggy fern
The US has enough nukes to wipe out everyone on earth a few times, they can afford to have some of them refuse to pull the trigger
thorny wing
which brings us back to nations not being the threat of today, because detection is so good you'd see it coming
a terrorist sneaking a dirty bomb into manhattan is the one thats harder to detect
foggy fern
Plus 4 minutes isn't enough unless it was a suicide attack that managed to smuggle a nuke into a city
thorny wing
harder to respond to
foggy fern
It takes longer than 4 minutes for a nuke to fly from Cuba even
thorny wing
yes that was another concern a few years back
foggy fern
That's why CBP works with DOE and has radiation detectors in ports
thorny wing
there's lots of detection devices and scanners in all sorts of weird places now
whether its enough is still argued
that in and of itself would probably be suspicious
you'd have hard time getting it out of port
but could probably fuck up a port
you can absolutely detect lead
foggy fern
It would be too big and heavy to shield it enough for some of these detectors
foggy fern
They aren't just looking for radiation, they're looking for a unique kind only plutonium fission bombs emit
thorny wing
"hey whats this big obstruction blocking the other scans" is itself suspicious
yes ports are inherently worse off for that reason
foggy fern
Blowing up the port district of a city isn't wiping out society in the US
Good luck getting a container ship off the coast of DC
thorny wing
some of the more urban ports have some equipment outside of the port itself as well
but they get upset if you start asking about specifics
you quickly get back to "is it enough?" and then "who knows"
one port would get you on the news but would it be as nice as say downtown LA?
its all layers of defense and monetary vs human risk equations
foggy fern
Anyway, the whole point of all of this is knowing how long it takes to decide to launch doesn't really matter and in any realistic scenario involving a nuclear bomb a retaliatory strike would happen
There is always one person in the order of succession not within the blast radius of the others so worst case they're President now and order the strike
But even without them if the people who manage the missles learned an attack actually happened a lot of them would launch without clear orders
The codes are 0000
thorny wing
the codes are a figment of imagination
they may as well not be there
the pentagon doesnt give launch technician X the code
launch tech has the code
foggy fern
They had codes, thought they'd be a good idea, but the first thing the commanders did was order them get changed to all zeroes so a comms failure wouldn't block the ability to launch
thorny wing
launch tech exists to verify the pentagon's order and make sure the missle still works
iirc there were periods in the cold war when there were standing orders to launch during an attack even without an order from the pres
also we leave missle silo doors unlocked so our guys can order pizza
not that they're supposed to do that, but it happens
fun facts
go deliver pizza to bumblefuck north dakota, sneak in
foggy fern
The only reason they haven't been launched already is people aren't sociopaths and are terrified of doing so
Dude give me 20 minutes and I can call you with all zeroes
thorny wing
I think there was some system to disarm a missile if it was inadvertently launched anyway
foggy fern
Yeah, that's a thing
thorny wing
obviously better if we dont test it especially given its probably 40 years old
big ol og floppies at that
floppy floppies
speaking of fun facts, for the uninitiated here's some very very light history on how bad things god in the cold war, and why constantly flying nukes around 24/7 is bad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnEhRKm0bLc
foggy fern
Not even the 5.25" floppies, the really old 8" ones
Most people haven't even seen one of those before
thorny wing
most people havent even seen the 5.25" ones anymore
I can count how many times Ive seen an 8" on just two hands
mystic ermine
I'll show you a... nvm
thorny wing
they have pills for that, your floppy
mystic ermine
But yea, stuff like that kinda just get's left to age until the urgency to replace it became critical 10 years ago, etc
apparently the 747 still gets updates on ye' ol' floppy disks
dusky raft
I no longer believe in polls
Again, looking at 2016, this is a mistake to believe that polls are going to be accurate
I dont think its the wrong people, but I think the polls are inflated to make it look like biden is the clear winner
skewed to favor
its what happened in 2016
"trump couldnt possibly win 2016, unless... cues russia hoax"
yeah
no
fuck the popular vote in its entirety, thats just asking for corruption
pretty much, for all we know, them hillbillies in kentucky have a more powerful ballot than california
or so people say
no, but if people really want the more powerful ballot, then they should move to said state
yes
or have a single state or high population centers dictate how the country goes
dusky raft
thats cnn for you
wouldnt be shocked if msnbc does the same shit
I havent seen the debate
ill see it tomorrow
also, I thought I heard that the debates were nothing but a show and not that important?
drifting arch
i mean, it is a show. but they're important nonetheless
that fucking fly in his hair lmaooo
drifting arch
@sand shale biden's campaign is taking the fly thing so far 
they're selling this now https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjxptCoU0AAc8Gt?format=jpg&name=large
sand shale
lmfao
sand shale
lmao
this is the thing I like about the US elections
funny stuff like this
I hate the rest
deft bronze
anyone else voting for the fly?
meager ice
near glen
why would you hold any event in person if your country cant get a pandemic under control?
I mean, trump is infected, nobody wants to get near him, lol
well, he also invested all his staff, so even if he isnt spreading, the others will
its just irresponsible
but I mean, thats what trump does, lmao
bleak echo
lol what the fuck have you been to a single event before?
there is no such thing as a performer there on their own
how stupid are you
covid has a long incubation period, and tests have false negatives
lolll
and like you can't exactly replace staff on a moment's notice, they have complicated jobs that require them to know a lot
i'm dying here
you legitimately have no idea how many people go into making even the simplest of events
stagehands for one
who wants to show up to work with a walking biohazard
at the very least, the org's risk management services, or occupational health and safety committee would shut that down
not to mention any unions that might be involved
brisk cradle
Hi guys. Just another normal Thursday in America, nothing to see here, move along. https://apple.news/AlPUBe5k9PEaUKV54HWBSCg
brisk cradle
The right really hates Democrats who... are actually trying to do something about coronavirus?
quartz dock
im all for trump
bleak echo
ok troll
quartz dock
Lol
brisk cradle
The markets will fix COVID!!!!! https://apple.news/AO7zd-INVR3iECNg0DsL-IA
Kushner is quite something
opaque prairie
is he the one who couldnt get security clearance
or was that all of them i dont remember lmao
brisk cradle
Twitter
yeah I can't get over the fact that we call right-wing white, male domestic terrorists "militia groups"
brisk cradle
You know, he's technically not wrong, but the implications are massive and almost always negative. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/08/republican-us-senator-mike-lee-democracy
I'm sure his pronouncement that the US 'is not a democracy' will go well next to Kellyanne Conway's 'alternative facts' (non-BS: 'lies'), Trump's 'very fine people' in Charlottesville (non-BS: support of white supremacists), and Rudy Giuliani's 'truth is not truth' (non-BS: facepalm)
But I want to thank Mike Lee for his honesty. In showing that the Republican Party does not care about democracy, they only care about power.
opaque prairie
to be fair we knew about that since bush jr got elected the first time
arctic tangle
Uuuuh, maybe it's just me, but the outrage against him seems rather manufactured. The only reason this is noteworthy is because the speaker is Republican, and I say this as a progressive lefty myself.
The founders of the US absolutely chose a system in an attempt to ward of the tyranny of the government but also the tyranny of the people. Democracy is not synonymous with unquestioned goodness. He's absolutely correct in saying democracy isn't the goal, that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is the goal.. because democracy is the means, not the end.
Could he have phrased it better? Duh, but this whole frothing outrage is fucking stupid.
torpid bear
It depends on what kind of democracy he’s talking about. If he means we’re not a direct democracy, then he’s right. We were never meant to be. If he means we aren’t any kind of democracy at all, then I really hope he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Because a representative democracy can still be considered a form of democracy.
arctic tangle
That's true, but again people aren't giving him the benefit of the doubt exactly because he's Republican.
torpid bear
It goes both ways. Neither party trusts anything the other one says.
arctic tangle
But the perception of democracy seems to be changing to a more "direct democracy" focused definition. Here in the UK with Brexit, the concept of "the will of the people" is essentially being used to move everything and everyone out of the way to "get it done" regardless of process, of what's legal, of what's constitutional, regardless of consequence
restive seal
"California is gonna have to ration water. You wanna know why? Because they send millions of gallons of water out to sea, out to the Pacific. Because they want to take care of certain little tiny fish, that aren't doing very well without water to be honest with you."
-Trump
shy gulch
is that real?
restive seal
Yep
Clip starts with some primer "aren't liberals all terrible" stuff, but then gets to that quote - https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1314384992085123085
weary obsidian
as much as I want trump gone, Pelosi and the dems are just being fucking annoying with impeachment and now 25th A, stop this bullshit that you know wont succeed. it only fuels the divide.
I feel it does more to push unsure moderates towards Trump than it does the other way
im not sure how it would have any positive impact to encourage unsure people at all
so i see it as a pure lose for the left
restive seal
You'd rather they sit and do nothing while the president of the united states does this stuff?
weary obsidian
@restive seal what they are doing is doing nothing. Id rather them do something like try to find a bipartisan issue to work on instead
impeachment and25a mean nothing unless the argument is so compelling that the republicans (and pence in the 25a case) will turn on trump.
without that, its wasted time.
restive seal
Is there a case compelling enough?
Id rather them do something like try to find a bipartisan issue to work on instead
There are piles of bills passed by the house that the senate will never touch, or pass their own version. The problem with congress lies with the republican party right now.
weary obsidian
exactly, that is my complaint, stop even TRYING those. its a waste of time. it only fuels the rights "see all this stuff they are trying to do, they are attacking this country". The right can spin anything the left does as anti american. and the more the right makes moderates think the left is unamerican, the more they sway back to trump.
Nothing the dems are doing or did with the impeachment os going to make someone on the fence go "you know what, now I finally see that Trump is crazy"
They know he's crazy, they know hes doing stuff that is illegal. They know hes a racist, mysgonist, liar, corrupt.
They don't care. You're not swaying anyone by trying to prove all that stuff more, the proof is already there. Those peoeple who are in the middle are ignoring all that.
Trump has it ezmode. The left has to stop giving trump ammo. Just ride it out until next year. find something that the right will get behind that the left agrees on, and just do that.
arctic tangle
It is kind of perplexing, as an outsider, why the Democrats impeaching Trump for perfectly valid reasons is somehow pushing moderates towards Trump.. because that basically implies that moderates are more willing to tolerate literally the worst and most threatening President in recent history.. because the left is just kind of annoying?
weary obsidian
the US impeachment process was designed to be used when both chambers agreed the presdient did something wrong, a bipartisan process. Trump spins it as a witch hunt. The right says there is no evidence trump committed a crime. the entire process ended with nothing changing, Trump using the resutls as "see, I'm innocent, they are out to get me", those in the middle see constant baragement of failed attempts one after the other from the left "trying to get trump" and constant "and they were wrong", it sways them to agree with trump.
Anyone who agrees that what trump has done is wrong did not need that impeachment proceeding to get to that decision.
arctic tangle
The times the US impeached people, it was the executive and the Senate who did most of the work.
Didn't the Nixon whitehouse basically self investigate?
weary obsidian
ultimately the whole system is failed ,as there are many who do agree, but trump has instilled such a requirement of loyalty in the right that anyone who opposes trump is ending their career.
arctic tangle
Yeah, that's something we're facing here in the UK too, loyalty over obligation
weary obsidian
reminds me i need to go buy a giant meteor 2020 bumper sticker to compliement my 2016 one
arctic tangle
Luckily we don't have any major elections though.. honestly all of the stuff going on in the US to disenfranchise voters is absolutely abhorrent
arctic tangle
tbh, anyone who still frothingly defends Trump and his party after their efforts to demolish the effectiveness of the USPS, of closing polling stations, of deregistering millions of voters, or implementing voter ID laws... is honestly too far gone
We had a trial of Voter ID requirements here, and constituencies with higher numbers of elderly residents allowed them to use extraneous IDs like their pensioner bus passes, but none allowed extraneous IDs that young people would have, like university IDs.. really activates the almonds.
dusky raft
we need a better ID system. I do believe states should be the ones to administer IDs, but must follow guidelines
also, are bus passes government issued?
but yeah, USPS has been in the shitter for a long time, and it isnt due to Trump.
arctic tangle
I'm not necessarily opposed to voter id in principle, but the implementation is typically using passports or driving licenses that supposedly literally everyone has so it doesn't matter.
As someone who changed their name, I've only just gotten round to updating my passport, so I would not be able to use my passport as valid id because it had my old name on it, and it cost me £80 to update it. I'm also having to update my driving license because I've withdrawn from university because of COVID, so the address on it wouldn't match the address I'm registered for. I'm currently going through the process of updating that now.
But ultimately, if there was an election a few months ago and had voter id laws, I would not have been able to vote despite the government recognising me as a registered voter.
My point being that if the government acknowledges you as an eligible voter and allows you to register, then they should send you basically a receipt that you can use as a valid form of id. OR there should be like a citizen's card that you can get for free.
.
That being said, I'm always very dubious of calls to institute voter id. I'm of the mind that we shouldn't change something that works perfectly fine just for ideological reasons. Like as i said, I'm not opposed to voter id in principle, but why would we be doing it? And that's when all of the nonsense arguments come flooding out.
The fact of the matter is that voter fraud just doesn't scale well, particularly here in the UK, because here, polling stations are overseen by multiple and trained civil volunteers that keep each other in check. When voting stops, the ballot boxes are overseen as they're transferred to counting stations, which is done by hand by volunteers and overseen and even broadcast live on tv.
This is not to say that our voting systems are impervious to fraud, but again, they really, really don't scale well, and an election will never be swayed by it. Our elections are more under threat by targeted political ads than by voter fraud.
dusky raft
Yeah, gotta love big tech
I think biases have gotten larger with big media/tech being the eyes and ears
I'm more conservative, so I see conservative ads more than liberal ones
arctic tangle
Exactly, the Cambridge Analytica scandal and what they did with the Brexit campaign really opened my eyes to what curation algorithms can do in politics
How can we even pretend we have a free marketplace of ideas when everyone is being drop fed different and inflammatory things about everyone else?
dusky raft
I also see this in colleges, where conservatives are a minority
and I mean to the point where administration can push them around
though, honestly at this point, I think the US would be better off funding strip clubs compared to colleges, considering the big thing I hear is drinking and parties
oh wait, that might be a tad bit sexist if people take it the other way
arctic tangle
eh, well, uuuh, hmm... so, okay, I can generally empathise wise that, however I'm hesitant to fully agree because in my experience, complaints about campus suppression of conservatism is really just a smoke screen for free speech; that they aren't being oppressed for wearing modest clothing or being religious or whatever, but because they're going around saying homosexuality is disgusting and that paedophilia and bestiality will be next, that women should know their place, that miscegenation is wrong, that sinners will go to hell, that trans people are disgusting.. etc..
We don't reaaaally have the same problems here in the UK or at least not to the same extent, but I've heard that campus politics is a really hot issue, but tbh it does feel like it's being focused on too much.
dusky raft
well, I personally dont care about lgbt... BUT, the religious conservatives have been screaching about the other two, and some media sites did endorse pedophilia briefly before pulling the articles. along with sinners and hell, I havent seen it being a big conservative talking point
arctic tangle
Yeah, I dunno, anytime I hear a complain about campus politics that involves free speech, I immediately switch off. Like, I get it to some extent, but I went to university to become a better programmer, not to be obligated to listen to some random weirdo talk about why white genocide is real
dusky raft
or be told about how oppressed people are
im just depressed about hearing this shit, I just want to learn my trade, not be told that the color of my skin makes me evil
arctic tangle
I don't mind if people talk about systemic racism, but I agree that the people who say that all white people are racist and evil are definitely obnoxious
dusky raft
Ive worked with people of different colors and religions, and apart from differences, I got along well with them, and I can say some are the best people I have worked with
arctic tangle
but yeah, I do loathe the whole notion that university is where you go to learn new ideas so students are expected to hear every fringe and extremist position otherwise it's defeating the whole point of university
restive seal
But those shitty viewpoints don't need to be elevated, though.
Like, you don't need to invite someone who preaches hate to speak just to be "both sides" about it.
dusky raft
which person are you referring to?
restive seal
One can be educated about the existence of such viewpoints without validation
dusky raft
or examples is what I should say
restive seal
No specific person, referring to the above comments about "but because they're going around saying homosexuality is disgusting and that paedophilia and bestiality will be next, that women should know their place, that miscegenation is wrong, that sinners will go to hell, that trans people are disgusting.. etc.."
dusky raft
No speaker ive watched speaks of that?
restive seal
Though we could bring up the example of Ben Shapiro whining when he gets uninvited to things 😛
I wasn't generalizing that all conservatives (or most) fit that labeling, to be clear.
arctic tangle
There have been examples were speakers to universities have been boycotted or uninvited or something and there's been a big fuss about censorship because students didn't want to listen to such extreme views.. but tbh it would probably be a pain to find exact examples from Google
but the issue isn't just speakers, it's also other students and clubs and such
dusky raft
yeah, the problem is the extreme points of views from student bodies and professors, which also renforce a bubble
conservatives arent the only ones doing this, and they are the minority in many cases in colleges
This is again why I tend to recommend trade over college, because I didnt find anything useful to me. hell, I fucking up and told an administrator of a college I wasnt throwing my life away for not joining their college
If anything, you told me you want my money where your mouth is
arctic tangle
Yeah, a big problem I think we're facing is that the problems we're facing as a society can't be fixed with like one simple change to the law, like with gay marriage. We're finding more and more of these deeply rooted problems that have really involved solutions that require the acquiescence of most people, but most people either don't really know or don't really care, or see it as the tail wagging the dog. Progress in society tends to come off the back of large and contiguous social movements which catchphrases and easily defined issues and easily defined solutions.
dusky raft
The problem is that it isnt the poor making a noise, its usually higher class persons that bring it up
arctic tangle
Well, that's a worrying trend that I've been noticing: the demonisation of the middle class. I'd be considered middle class, though probably lower middle class, and yet more recently it seems like I'm being lumped in with the liberal elite, that I'm part of this puppet master class pulling the strings or whatever.
dusky raft
There are noble movements, ie, civil rights. What I dont agree on is the use of violence as just
arctic tangle
The Civil Rights movement wasn't without violence itself
dusky raft
I believe it was mainly from the people who opposed it, unless im wrong also
I know there were violence caused when it broke down
arctic tangle
A large part of the Civil Rights movement was civil disobedience and some violence too. The Gay Rights movement also started with the Stonewall Riots.
It's unfortunate that violence is part of movements, we like to think of ourselves as civilised societies that can change with nothing but words, but it's just not true.. none of the progressive movements were without violence or civil disobedience (law breaking); it's a total misconception spawned by historical revisionism
I found this to be a particularly good video about the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BB0Q1qHpAw
dusky raft
ew, defund police, ill watch the video, but im disabling ads
arctic tangle
Pacifism is a powerful strategy but it is, no mistake, the willingness to personally take a bat to the head.
We can talk about whether it's more effective for your long term goals to let a cop smack you down on camera than it is to wreck their [police] car.
But people tend to skip over what is really being asked of protestors. Critics who demand peaceful demonstrations are saying, whether they admit it or not, that the correct way to protest is to let a heavily militarised police force that has already demonstrated its willingness to murder people in full view of the public, beat them shitless.
They are not wishing for nonviolence; they are stating a preference for whom the violence should happen to
dusky raft
I dont believe in pacifism
its called death or obey in my terms
but I am anti war
but yeah, this guy does make some critical points, however, what if the state supports the riots?
arctic tangle
I dunno, I'd have to know more about the situation. But what I would say based on just that premise is that the state "supporting" riots is a fundamental misunderstanding about what the violence and civil disobedience is trying to achieve: systemic change. So if the state is there clapping it along but not actually doing anything, then it's not really supporting the cause.
brisk cradle
Alternative headline: "Conservative gets triggered and needs a safe space" https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/1314692460463955968
Damn Biden and his micro-aggressions
dusky raft
put a barrier between them and maybe a full box around them
arctic tangle
make the rooms soundproof so Drumpf can't just continuously talk over Biden
Good on them.. Trump's team would absolutely, absolutely not do it either
You think if it was the other way around, if Biden had gotten COVID, that Trump would've graciously given Biden time to recover?
That's going to be a big Press X to Doubt from me.
I don't think there has to be a good reason
It's not within the Democrats' political interests to be ingratiating towards Trump
And as much as you may wish to think it, Trump would absolutely not return the favour either. He's already tried to force the networks not to have the ability to mute mics because he actively wants to dismantle Biden in every bad faith way he can.
Yeah no, that does not make it okay for him to flout rules he and his team actively agreed to to appear on those debates
Really?
ngl, this sounds so much like concern trolling
The whole point of the debates is to give the viewers a genuine look into the candidate's opinions.. and Trump is actively infringing upon Biden's ability to do so in violation of the rules the network set and he agreed to. Allowing the mics to be muted is not some big ploy to make the debate unfair to Trump.. that's absolutely just concern trolling.
Mhm.
Or, since it's a private network's program, they can set the rules and enforce them because Trump literally has no right to be on their broadcast?
...yikes
You actually think that Trump supporters are going to punish him for being obnoxious on tv and undermining the very purpose of the debates? Or do you think they'll just post memes on Facebook and 4chan about Biden's stutter?
soooo... what you're saying, is that the undecided will decide against Trump for being obnoxious while not having heard anything Biden tried to convey because of Trump's obnoxiousness?
So it all revolves around Trump? It's okay to not let Biden to get a word in because, well, they'll decide on Trump's behaviour?
restive seal
i think its just dems trying to get out of the debate
But... Trump is the one who refused the debate. Why make stuff up that's provably false with direct quotes from Trump?
arctic tangle
I'd guess he's a Trump supporter, that's why
He's basically saying that the Democrats should always placate to the Republicans
restive seal
But the debate was already decided on with a date, and virtual debate was entirely possible. We've had debates over great distance before.
The only difference between the in person or virtual would be that he can breathe on Biden in one and not the other 😛
Yep, long time ago. Meaning that the technology is there, and if people in 1960 can handle the concept fine then people in 2020 sure as heck can! 🙂
theres no reason why they cant do in person
You mean other than the covid tests he's surely going to fail? 😄
And I thought the latest news was he was going to do a rally, and then that got turned into something virtual because he's cancelling all travel plans.
Thought Biden was the only one saying town hall still.
I must be a few hours behind.
I keep referencing the Herman Cain timeline
I mean, the CDC has had some political influence causing inconsistencies in comments but overall they get the message good enough 😄
IIRC if Trump followed the Cain timeline, he'd get worse again and then better again and then suddenly pass away around election day and then ghost tweet the night of the election. [Note, I don't want him to die, I want him to live]
tough cedar
there is still the third debate
that debate was going to get pushed a week out too to what, october 28th?
restive seal
never develop symptoms
This is crucially not the case for Trump though 😛
You can hear him with symptoms in his phone calls in to tv shows
I think people would want a couple negatives in a row to be safe
and do you think he'd actually commit to the testing considering the family apparently showed up too late for testing for the first one?
Yeah, and that alone is a good reason to do the debate virtual
From trump's end they could create a virtual room with a blow up doll with biden's face on it at a podium in the room with him, it would be the same to him 😛
tough cedar
if he could, sure
does he actually take the test though?
who administers the test?
restive seal
You're doing a bunch of what-ifs over things he's not at all likely to do considering past actions.
The dude insisted on going for a car ride, potentially infecting the secret service agents in the car with him, because he wanted attention.
He's not going to commit to the isolation that should also be necessary alongside regular testing for proven negatives.
He's going to go out and about and see people in person without masks and shake hands and other reckless things because nobody ever tells him what to do.
If they had covid they would have been isolated/quarantined/hospitalized.
opaque prairie
you dont know the details of that car ride at all, entirely possible those secret service agents already had covid
@autumn lotus what the fuck does this even mean? the agents having covid makes it okay?
restive seal
And there are proven cases of catching it again, and now those agents who had it once have a pre-existing condition of whatever long-term effects it gave them on round one, so you really don't want them in the car.
Putting anyone in the presence of covid unnecessarily is endangering lives, and the car ride was unnecessarily. It was reckless and selfish.
Reinfection so far has been rare. The best known example: Researchers in Hong Kong said a man had mild COVID-19 and then months later was infected again but showed no symptoms. His second infection was detected through airport testing, and researchers said genetic tests revealed slightly different strains of the virus.
https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-archive-310caebd08336e2df27c468dfc79f9b8
Rare doesn't mean non-existent.
You are really into the idea of risking people's lives in a global pandemic to justify a megalomaniac's joy ride.
Please stop defending him, it's upsetting.
glass hamlet
Until we know for sure that exposure means long-term immunity, there's no reason we should be creating unnecessary risk.
restive seal
Science says wear your mask, stay away from others, remain quarantined/isolated if you have it or might have it. He has consistently worked to undermine science since this whole thing started.
arctic tangle
As mentioned earlier, he's probably a Trump supporter
restive seal
It won't mean life-long immunity for everyone, even if it can grant lasting immunity, walrus. Immune systems are great at forgetting things 😄
restive seal
It was alright, just can be worth clarifying in case someone comes away from this thinking "I'm 100% safe"
glass hamlet
100% understandable, thanks for catching it
restive seal
i think his public actions were good up until he decided to re-open the economy
Which was... what? February? 😛
As for good public actions, what about the whole thing where governors had to beg and praise him to get supplies? Where the federal government was intercepting shipments? What about the report documenting how they decided not to react as strongly because it was initially hitting blue states? What about injecting bleach?
What about consistently downplaying the virus?
Respectfully, were you living under a rock until a few days ago? 😛
drifting arch
ok lmao, i got an email from biden's campaign at 5:17pm asking for a donation saying they need 2.2m before next wed
just got another one (7:30pm) saying they need 2.1m
they made 100k in 2 hrs
arctic tangle
Guys guys, we should really look into injecting disinfectant
restive seal
i think anyone with any sort of intelligence would of known it is not simply the flu
Found someone without "any sort of intelligence" here:
Here, have a convenient timeline of Trump downplaying it.
arctic tangle
Trump is not a dictator, so even if Trump downplays it, Congress can still do stuff about it
restive seal
looks like a bad faith article
Alrighty then, I'm going to back away from this conversation because you're clearly the sort to only accept information that validates your established opinion.
Go ahead and tell your friends you owned another lib
arctic tangle
Guys, we shouldn't increase testing, I like the numbers just as they are
tough cedar
When the CDC made its initial recommendation that people wear cloth or fabric face coverings, Trump said it was going to be "really, a voluntary thing" and emphasized that he would not do it.
there
a downplay right there
people listen to the president
arctic tangle
And hasn't Trump continue to refuse wearing a mask up until recently?
tough cedar
CDC recommends you wear a mask, trump says no ty and people who look up to him also don't wear a mask
arctic tangle
You're really going out of your way to give him as much slack as you possibly can
This is a lost cause
tough cedar
it's downplaying because he said himself he wont wear one
so people who look up to him think oh, trump isn't wearing one, so why do I need to wear one?
the president is generally a role model for the country, people again, generally, look up to them
so his words carry weight and when he says things like that, it downplays the risks that come with the virus
he should've been agreeing with the CDC so more people would take it more seriously is basically what i'm saying
arctic tangle
yup, and even if you insist on giving Trump's "recommendations" more credence than they're worth, his messages have been incredibly mixed
oke buddy
deft bronze
And he should not have downplayed the virus at all
foggy fern
open ruin
thats unreasonably hilarious
weary obsidian
so trump is holding a rally monday, who in their fucking mind would go to that. or is trumpers treating this as the new chicken pox party
bleak echo
i'm just ready for him to keep pushing himself and just keel over at one of his public appearences
brisk cradle
@foggy fern A lot of conservatives are still mentally stuck dealing with their grievances of the Obama presidency. I expect the Biden administration to make a lot of liberals get mentally stuck dealing with their grievances of the Trump presidency.
Mentally speaking, it might have well been a three-term Obama presidency for Trump voters and a two-term Trump presidency for liberals.
weary obsidian
the point was the trump guy is an idiot that he thinks trump is the reason hes doing so much better, when its because hes profitting off others misfortune
of how bad covid is now? it mostly is
trump is the reason covid is so bad in the US, while many other countries went back to a more normal state
yes, and those people think their decisions are right and virtious because the president encourages them to do it
are you insinuating that people dont listen to trump as encouragement that they should prioritize returning to 'normal' over defensive choices?
i dont know what to say to that
just shocked you actually believe that
im talking about the US
of course i dont expect people in other countries to care, and yes some people still do it
but in the US, the amount of people is greatly higher due to trump
yes, and it takes experts giving them solid advice to help curb their stupid decisions
so when you take away all logic from health from the top, and you have your president encouraging you to do the bad things, yes they are gonna do the bad things "the president said i should , so its obviously ok"
it reinforces the bad decision
if a person is teetering on good or bad, theyll sway bad
its not about then, its about the past 5~ mos
criticizing for encouraging the people to do the wrong thing, why are you defending him
if he shut the fuck up and said nothing, it would be better than what hes doing
yes i can
his actions are increasing those numbers
mystic ermine
He fucked up
weary obsidian
and see, you also hit a point" knew the risks"
his actions make those people think there arent any real risks
thats the issue
mystic ermine
He did not do a good job of providing info on the pandemic, media spin also puts extra doubt on stuff he says
weary obsidian
...
im done with this, i cant handle that level of comment
except the 20 yr olds getting lung transplants, or the 20 yr olds spreading it to others who are more vulnerable
and the fact those people are less responsible about quanrantine if they get it, less responsible about hygeine
mystic ermine
I disagree with total lockdowns, but, gov/states defo need to do stuff to help their communities, aiding with relief and allowing businesses to remain open where safe, at the end of the day, there is a risk, and that should be mitigated as some people don't have sane means to protect themselves, e.g. people who are already at risk and can't really wear proper PPE like face masks
weary obsidian
or stupid fucking people who want to spread it
it doesnt matter if YOU are low risk
mystic ermine
The issue is that it could kill others
weary obsidian
you will still end up spreading it to more people
mystic ermine
People who can't take as many simple steps to protect themselves such as wearing a face mask
weary obsidian
you get virus, you keep going your selfish lives, partying, spreading it, before you even find out you got it
yes because im a fucking morale decent human being and not a piece of shit
if you dont, FUCK YOU
ima go watch tv now, getting too heated
mystic ermine
it's a mixture of things
foggy fern
I guess someone must have said something to him later https://twitter.com/BryanDFischer/status/1315018835733344256
opal moat
dusky raft
wut
eh
yeah, they want trump to pull out of the middle east
which I think we should do
they would support trump because he is litterally doing what bush/obama didnt do
shut vine
Finding people who support somebody does not link them in any way, it's literally a dishonest way to smear someone.
Especially if you allow evil people to say they support someone then no one votes for them because of it, lets say a whole heap of evil people back a candidate to get that exact result, allowing them to swing an election in their favor (reverse psychology).
dusky raft
yeah, much like Richard Spencer supports biden
dont hear the news outlets making a fuss over that
also
hearing what spencer supports, hes more aligned with democrat values
dusky raft
also, I love how some people are spinning court packing as filling an empty seat on the supreme court
just doesnt make sense
opaque prairie
the court packing comment is based off the fact that in 2016 repubs said no to filling the supreme court seat due to an election year, and now that it is their president and an election year, they are ignoring that previous commitment
and the fact that repubs blocked every single appointment for the last 2 years of obamas presidency
shut vine
They blocked Garland, who else?
opaque prairie
uhh i cant name any off the top of my head, but theres a bunch of appellate and other level judges they blocked. just google, a good bit of coverage as of late
shut vine
Also to argue democrats wouldn't do the same would be disingenuous. It's just how US politics works.
dusky raft
also republicans controlled the senate during obama
they could deny what obama pushed forward
shut vine
In fact during the Bush administration they tried with a minority.
dusky raft
but yeah, democrats would do the same if they had both the president and senate
shut vine
Presidents nominate judges, Senate members confirm/deny them.
opaque prairie
can you point to a time where i said democrats wouldnt do it?
shut vine
I wasn't specifically saying that, was trying to point out this is how the parties operate.
Not trying to misrepresent your stance.
opaque prairie
i am just saying the comment is in relations to the blocking of judges that is generally a republican move, as the senate is generally more republican
shut vine
Yeah it's part of the Senates job. I initially thought their choice to block back then and pass it now was hypocritical. However upon deeper investigation McConnel's reasoning was the Republicans were voted into a majority by the public to check the powers of the president, made a lot of sense.
weary obsidian
the broader statement they said was valid and non partisan
its an election year, let the voters decide
shut vine
I don't personally agree with the choice to do it so close to the election, but it's the presidents job to do so, I'd argue the Senate should block it for now, but the public reelected the Senate, and it's reasonable to conclude that shows the public has more confidence in the President.
weary obsidian
if the voters have lost their faith in the current party in the senate, and they vote to change it, let that preference reflect the choice of supreme court
shut vine
Well, they already did when they voted in the midterms and in 2016.
weary obsidian
and let john roberts get 2 votes until then
since hes the true fucking MVP of the supreme court
shut vine
The President's duties do not end now, they end early next year.
weary obsidian
supreme court is suppose to not be partisan, and roberts is the only one who shows true adherence to that
dusky raft
not meant to be, and its failed to do so since its inception
weary obsidian
and hey im a extreme left liberal, roberts is right leaning, so if im saing that, that says a lot for his character
restive seal
A remarkable number of people making the "doesn't end until january" comments now were making "let the people decide" comments months and months before the 2016 election.
That's what bothers me. If they hadn't done that nonsense in 2016 there wouldn't be such a problem now.
dusky raft
I dont think republicans did that? Back then, it was focus on the presidential debate, plus being in school at the time, I didnt focus too much on politics
restive seal
I dont think republicans did that?
I mean, there's video evidence but okay. 😛
I believe this is the part where I'm permitted to use Lindsay Graham's words against him? 😛
[Hopping out to get groceries, won't be able to reply further for a bit]
opaque prairie
ah yeah are the tweets still up? lemme see if i can find them
coulnd find tweet but this article highlights it well https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/21/us/politics/lindsey-graham-supreme-court-reversal.html
shut vine
I think the context matters a whole lot. So for example using the filibuster to block a nomination would be wrong.
dusky raft
2020 please get me something dated from 2016
opaque prairie
oh right im on campus. forgot about paywall
shut vine
My personal belief is the US political system is basically bought on both sides by the defense industry, and it's very hard to find one who isn't, and will not sign America up to endless wars.
Probably many also bought by banking / insurance / etc.
The candidates who actually do not support the establishment or the system get crucified by the media who are bought by the same people.
If I was a US citizen, I'd probably listen to the MSM and find out which candidates they hate the most and vote for them (unless I could find some objective contextual backing to their claims). The parties don't matter as much.
tepid heron
near glen
Stuff like this exposes more of the creator than it does make progressive and open ppl look bad, lol
smoky hedge
Lmao in Australia Queensland is about to have an election, and the lead up to it has been hilariously awful
So first we have a smear campaign about one parties’ membership secretary tweeting a mean girls reference on her private Twitter account
Next we have some dumb Labor (a political party) shill youtuber making fake memes that The Greens are making backdoor deals with the LNP (conservative party) for his followers to distribute
brisk cradle
GOP will try to prove electoral fraud by committing electoral fraud. Psych! https://www.ocregister.com/2020/10/11/unofficial-ballot-drop-boxes-popping-up-throughout-the-state-worry-elections-officials/
More proof Ben Shapiro is a dirtbag. https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/1315655036182114309
Twitter
Actually, no. See also: conservative judicial activism. Amy Comey Barrett is definitely a conservative judicial activist.
sounds about right https://twitter.com/eugenegu/status/1315660478975098880
Twitter
But don't worry, banning abortion and saving the God-Emperor-Fuhrer is MUCH more important.
brisk cradle
Yes
restive seal
On the topic of Ben Shapiro, I find this is a worthwhile read if you aren't quite familiar with him. https://static.currentaffairs.org/2017/12/the-cool-kids-philosopher
shut vine
Would you agree with the articles point that Ben is racist/somewhat racist?
foggy fern
opaque prairie
when will they just arrest these hooligans
opal moat
Would you agree with the articles point that Ben is racist/somewhat racist?
I mean he for sure is a huge transmisic so I wouldn't be surprised
near glen
And the darwin award goes to
And this is apperently how democracy works like in the US?
How are such long lines acceptable?
And one last thing I saw in my timeline
mystic ermine
Set voting places, etc, I'd imagine getting more is just beurocratic anal
weary obsidian
@near glen because republicans think that closing voting places resulting in fewer locations strengthens integrity
even scarier that they did this in the year of covid, encouraging more people to be at the same place
near glen
is there a single argument against just like, opening another one? lol
in germany, its just every other elementary school, which works great as a ratio
weary obsidian
valid argument? no
silly people seem to believe it makes it easier to commit voter fraud for some reason
near glen
a yes, because there is a difference between 1k and 2k stations
weary obsidian
their silly logic is that those who vote fraudulently are going to go vote at all the stations, so that gives them 1k extra votes!
.... except that they cant...
since your voter info is at a county level area lol
opaque prairie
honestly, i might have believed that argument a decade ago.. but like now its just an excuse to close voting locations. repubs historically do better with lower turnout so. Its just a bad faith argument now
near glen
but the president said I should vote twice, by mail and in person!
restive seal
The president also said to inject bleach
near glen
aka encouraging fraud, why is nobody holding that idiot accountable?
here he would long be sued into the ground
restive seal
The Senate is the only body capable of doing such right now, and they have made it clear that they will not act.
The president was caught trying to convince another country to lie for us to influence the election, and his party (who control the senate) voted to not remove him from office.
near glen
here even I, as a normal citizen, could sue the gov, and the gov would even cover the cost (excluding my attorney)
if I think that the gov violates the constitution
just the attempt is attempt of fraud tho
here you would get into trouble at the station
opaque prairie
mhmm because the past day has proven that those systems work
near glen
because you attempted to do fraud
then it would be real fraud
lol
if they stop you, its only an attempt
near glen
here, if you sign up for your mail ballot, you can't vote in person anymore
no matter if you send in your ballot, if it got denied, doesnt matter
unless you bring in your mail ballot to the station
opaque prairie
them allowing you to vote doesnt mean your ballot got denied? idk where that conclusion came from
near glen
mail ballots only get counted on election day here
mystic ermine
Afaik, his thing was "go check", not "go double vote"
near glen
"Let them send it in and let them go vote, and if their system’s as good as they say it is, then obviously they won’t be able to vote"
mystic ermine
mail in voting has a fair high % of rejected votes, and the reasons can often be stupid
mystic ermine
The issue is that the system is fucked
And fixing it requires both parties to get along for 5 minutes
as well as the fear of introducing computers into the system
near glen
idk, the whole political system in the US is fucked beyond repair
mystic ermine
and iirc, it was proven that many of the voting machines in play where easily succepptible to hacking
near glen
just the fact that there are only two parties
opaque prairie
i mean Georgia yesterday was a great example of how fucked the computer systems are
mystic ermine
only in 2020, next time around, vote for whoever you want
near glen
how many % did the other parties have combined?
opaque prairie
theres only 2 effective parties
mystic ermine
The issue is down to how power is "balanced"
opaque prairie
the system is a two party system, regardless of how many "parties" there are
near glen
the issue is that the US system is an unpopular vote, which completely banns 3rd parties
mystic ermine
In order for a system which works better with more parties, you'd need to shake how the system works
Both parties agree to some extent that the system needs to change, afaik
Just, "how" is on dispute and basically always will be
near glen
is there a single dude in the house of representatives thats not dem or rep?
kek, yes, one single one
out of 435
and 2 in senate
one of which is bernie sanders
lmao
like, look at the difference and go find the healthy democracy https://i.imgur.com/Sa0ulX6.png
and even in germany we have issues, just the fact that its so large for example
doesnt mean its good
near glen
I mean, the system is falling apart now tho
opaque prairie
and that you shouldnt try to make it better
near glen
you had two presidents now without the majority of voters
mystic ermine
it's not the system that's falling part
It's the parties
The system is fucked, always has been, always will be
Right now you have two people up for the seat and both of them are universally disliked by the other party
You have trump, who's, well, trump
near glen
which makes it even worse
opaque prairie
which is a function of the two party system
near glen
like, trump and biden, are those two dudes really the best america has to offer?
if so, thats sad
mystic ermine
Well, trump is trump, and for the personal characteristics people don't like about him, many favour him over biden
opaque prairie
i mean theyre obviously not, but the primary system is even more shit than the electoral system
near glen
am just happy that I life in a somewhat sane system
mystic ermine
The issue is that the canidates are old af and not really in tune with the rest of the world, especially with how fast stuff has changed over the past even 20 years, younger voters don't really follow their goals
near glen
not the the 3 current candidates of the biggest party here are good or get even close to merkel, but at least they are not idiots and not 80
mystic ermine
Kamala is disliked heavily, iirc, she pulled out of her campaign before she hit her home town
opaque prairie
no intelligent young American would go into politics, after watching the past decade
mystic ermine
I mean, the comments she's made against biden if fucking comical that he picked her, but, as it stands, people question if she's gonna hit there
She's not black, last I heard
I mean, I really don't give a fuck what skin color you are, but, if you're gonna play the racial card, don't stand on other races to push yourself forward
near glen
she african american cat
opaque prairie
i mean what does race and gender have to do with disliking her for her policy and choices when working for ca
mystic ermine
It's fuck all to do with it
near glen
but yeah, none of that should matter
mystic ermine
Most of us don't give a shit about her race or gender, but that's heavily one of the things they push
near glen
we had a real good chancellor in merkel and shes a woman
mystic ermine
HIllary all like "you should vote for me because first woman president!"
opaque prairie
you gotta remember theyre not appealing to people like us, theyre trying to get people who havent voted before, or get voters from the middle ground
opaque prairie
fucking christ it really is 3 weeks
mystic ermine
I mean, I kinda love the conspriracy that they're just shoving biden in there as they don't think they'll beat trump, but they'll get to throw biden off the "potentials" bench
opaque prairie
wow that got really far out there really fast
mystic ermine
They're already talking article 25
near glen
and then you can all pay me back next summer when we gotta have elections here
to replace merkel
mystic ermine
apparently 25 stands for shit if the VP doesn't agree, so... pence ain't gonna go for that, and he'd be the one on the chair next...
opaque prairie
my understanding is that all the article 25 shit is for trump, but yeah that would never happen so
i am not even thinking about a biden presidency till we get there
mystic ermine
conspiracy is that they're waiting for biden on there before they fire it
opaque prairie
uh whether they can or cant is technically a grammar interpretation if i remember correctly
mystic ermine
All I know is that I better get popcorn in stock
opaque prairie
is nikki another one of trumps white blonde probably illegal appointees?
i cant keep them all straight anymore
oh shit former sc gov
she seems like an actualy qualified persion
thats surpirsing
weary obsidian
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0734KF6CW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 giant meteor is best candidate
opaque prairie
i mean accepting gifts from anyone while a government official should be a big deal
weary obsidian
im about to put that on my car
weary obsidian
I had giant meteor 2016 too lol
opaque prairie
i had one of the 2016 stickers, not sure where it went
mystic ermine
runs
I live in like, a labour locked area, with quite literally 0 chance the tories would win over here, or really, any other party for that matter, so, I got no idea who I'd actually vote for
I did do a test, and while we disagreed on immigration, I got UKIP near the top :L
near glen
cat nazi confirmed
mystic ermine
wait
near glen
thankfully we got more options over here
weary obsidian
you know consoles should change their release date to the 4th, so that if trump wins everyone can just go into a video game coma
or i guess 3rd to give setup time, but i feel like opening it could be some positive after receiving devastating news
brisk cradle
@near glen In our country, a broken democracy is a feature, not a bug
near glen
depends for whom I guess
brisk cradle
Nothing is more important for our country than for a minority to have continued rule even after being booted from office!
near glen
now I get why the good party is called democrats, they want to fix the democracy 😄
brisk cradle
And that minority agenda is deeply unpopular
Democrats are better than Republicans, but only by a little. You have the good social democrats like Bernie Sanders, you have The Squad who are a bit to the left of him, the progressive caucus tends to be socially liberal with a bit of social democratic influence, but the rest are either (1) moderately conservative or (2) basically DINOs.
Our "left-wing" is your "center-left"
@near glen For instance, our very mild (actually free market-oriented) health care reform is pilloried by our right-wing constantly. Their plan to deal with health care affordability and access in its place consists almost entirely of platitudes, whereas the socialists are agitating for universal single-payer health care.
near glen
our health care system isnt even single payer, its too fold, poor ppl pay into one system, if you are rich enough you can get into private insurance
shut vine
A reasonable system is if you reasonably cannot afford it a social safety net catches you, otherwise a free market (not Croney capitalism). Free markets do drive prices down over time, and there is a reason a majority of health breakthroughs occur in the US.
A full social system doesn't work for research and innovation, but a full capitalist one doesn't either unless you already have a capitalist economy that is working perfectly (pipe dream probably just like a perfectly working socialist economy)
How was the ACA free-market? The individual mandate forced people to get it or be fined.
thorny wing
forced them to get any insurance at all or be fined
because people without insurance cause an undue burden on the rest of the system
shut vine
It's a prime example of politicians getting into bed and taking it in the rear from insurance companies.
thorny wing
wat
mystic ermine
The issue is that stuff like that hurts the people towards the bottom of society
thorny wing
thats the entire healthcare system, which theyve refused to replace
mystic ermine
I know somebody who had to get a second job when ACA came into play
shut vine
It literally hurt people who can't afford to get private health.
thorny wing
the people it screws over are closer to the middle than the bottom
the bottom are covered by medicare(caid) one of them
shut vine
ACA was bad when Mitt Romney implemented it, and it was bad when Obama implemented it.
thorny wing
its a bad solution shoe horned to fit into our even worse system
but given that there's no interest in fixing that system
thats all there will ever be
mystic ermine
Well, true, they where sorta in that region of being fine but defo not well off, the issue is heavily the line at which it's given doesn't really work too well unless you err on the side of giving even more handouts
The NHS is full of nice people, etc, but the fact that the gov controls the budget, etc, means that the place is going to shit
Brexit also makes things worse because they've pushed off the immigrant doctors coming in
shut vine
It also increases prices, if you force people to get insurance the insurance companies have NO incentive to reduce prices, competing for people who don't want it currently is gone.
mystic ermine
and, then you've got the gov pulling support for some bursaries given to nursing students, etc
thorny wing
not having insurance also increases prices for everyone else the second you go to the ER
mystic ermine
everyboy should have insurance
That's my personal opinion, but, the issue is how do you get everybody to have insurance
thorny wing
thats the giant rabbit hole
shut vine
I agree, but it should also be a choice, those who choose not to should pay, not the taxpayer. Those who genuinely cannot afford healthcare should be taken care of by government systems.
thorny wing
it cant be a choice in the current system
either everyone else pays or the government pays
and the government paying is socialism and we dont do that shit here thats bad
we'd rather you die in the street before we do that
shut vine
What?
thorny wing
those who choose not to should pay
these people cant pay
therefore, the costs get moved to the people who can
mystic ermine
Issue with government paying is that you lose the competative factor
thorny wing
I would probably respect that argument more if the market was competitive
mystic ermine
It's basically a "yes, deal" or "fuck off", former potentially allowing costs to run up, "fuck off" leading to treatments being off the table
shut vine
Yeah, like with many things there is a fine line between functional and not functional.
thorny wing
there's so many decades of fuckery in the healthcare system and the political system in general
glhf its all gonna be garbage
mystic ermine
Well, that's also true, especially for ER stuff, you're thrown in the first hospital, can't really say "I wanna go to X" when your brain matters leaking out
shut vine
Yeah, there are major issues with the health system in the US, it's not a free market at all.
mystic ermine
There are defo aspects of the NHS that I love, but, many countries with similar systems will tell you the same things
shut vine
I am 100% not advocating it's a good system
mystic ermine
It's great to have it, but stuff like waiting times, etc, are generally ass as the services are often overrun
There's no real benefit to having a hospital a few blocks down until shit starts getting to breaking point and the press covers it, etc
It's defo an ass of a problem to solve
shut vine
ACA didn't fix it, it just made it worse in my opinion.
thorny wing
I think it made it worse on some people
but it clearly helped a lot given the vocal rejection for getting rid of it
shut vine
On the poor it did
shut vine
Anyone other than upper class pretty much
thorny wing
I would question your line drawing
to say it only helped the upper class either ignores all but a small niche of the lower middle class, or is intentionally misguided
shut vine
So my reasoning is this. Health insurance premiums have continued to rise (at about the same rate prior to ACA). The rich can still afford those hikes just like they could before.
They don't care, they have millions of dollars.
thorny wing
and ?
you judge its success based on that one metric only?
insurance premiums will continue to grow regardless, if for no other reason than inflation
until its burned entirely down thatll be the way
what it did do was extend coverage to many of those who didnt have it before and couldnt afford it before
shut vine
So you think taking additional money from those who can't afford it was a good idea?
thorny wing
so while yes theyre paying for coverage they didnt have to before, insurance premiums are significantly less expensive than the actual bill
shut vine
Or otherwise wanted to spend the money on something else?
thorny wing
having spent 5 hours in the ER a few months ago and been charged 15k for one ct scan and about 30 minutes of dr time
shut vine
Pretty much every big insurance company has quadrupled their net profit post ACA.
thorny wing
I can tell you what i paid is a lot less than the premium
after they fucked up the insurance anyway
shut vine
They are, I agree
thorny wing
so what
if your metric for success is "starve the insurance companies" you will never have success
they're private companies, they will always seek profit above all else, thats their job
and given the current state where money == speech
thats how it will be
if ACA is as bad and as awful as you claim, it shouldve been gone 4 years ago when a hostile congress took over
shut vine
No I actually think we should allow people to choose if they should or should not buy something
thorny wing
thats cool and all
except you not buying it costs me and everyone else money when you go to the ER
shut vine
Not if you have insurance
shut vine
Oh no, they are, they are passed onto the insurance company and they adjust premiums based on the costs of covering their members
thorny wing
yes
that is the system
anything that tries to make it better without fundamentally changing that will never meet your metric of success
and fundamental change isnt going to happen anytime soon
shut vine
Yea, so those who choose it can do so based on their needs, and pay for what they need, instead of paying for what someone else needs
thorny wing
I dont understand how youre back to "instead of paying for what someone else needs"
shut vine
Well guess we wont understand each other, which is fine
thorny wing
I mean we just covered why you cant not pay
you either do so implicitly or you get them on insurance and screw over that middle lower class
but yeah, Im not gonna make a big deal, maybe we're just talking past eachother or something
its all good my dude
shut vine
Yeah I agree, differences of opinion are good anyway
thorny wing
In case you didnt notice I would prefer the "lets fundamentally change shit" idea
but you know, lol with that
shut vine
I agree with that
There has to be a balance with all these things, I don't think any country has the balance right
thorny wing
we could probably go back and forth on that though too lol
well and what a good balance for one country is probably isnt for another
and etc etc down the rabbit hole we go
shut vine
Yeah, economics are complicated
I definitely don't have all the answers or know for certain my ideas are not fundamentally flawed, it would be arrogant for me to think so.
thorny wing
same here, I just try and pay attention and come to my own conclusions. Seems like there's a lot of that missing anymore. Even if we don't all come to the same ones, at least form your own.
anyway, thanks for the discussion
shut vine
I agree, freethinking is very rare these days. If you're interested in freethinkers I've been watching Jimmy Dore recently, I don't agree with all he says but he seems very willing to praise people he does not like when they do something he agrees with, and is critical of people he likes when they do something he doesn't agree with. Also likewise; thanks for the discussion.
dusky raft
I think the ACA itself didnt solve any of the issues, and many still struggle getting health care or some form of insurance
restive seal
Hot take, the ACA is a failure but that's what I'd expect from a republican-designed (romneycare) plan that was subsequently further meddled with by republicans. 😛
shut vine
It basically was designed by Mitt Romney and implemented in Michigan state before federally.
dusky raft
now that im not shocked
shut vine
Often times Republican's and Democrats push the same bills through.
The reason I think people like Tulsi Gabbard, Donald Trump, etc are good for American politics is they at least seem like they don't care what their own party wants.
dusky raft
no, they dont give a damn
shut vine
If that's a façade or not is obviously debatable, but more politicians are needed that don't care so much about the party but care about principles, same with MSM
I like Chris Wallace for that, he tends to be very rough with politicians no matter their alignment.
Well, just from what I've seen of him. Same with Tucker Carlson and Jimmy Dore.
weary obsidian
please dont associate tulsi with trump ; ;
while yes the statement is true to a degree, on the right side, the party melded to trump
shut vine
I'm not really associating them, just like both for similar reasons.
Well I have more question regarding Trump's uh...
weary obsidian
if tulsi was the VP candidate, I could of at least felt somewhat good about my vote for biden
shut vine
Conviction to ignoring the party line.
I feel like the fact there was so much party support for him shows he has probably buckled to pressure from them over time or never really was anti-party line if that makes sense.
Yeah I think Tulsi seems like a very good candidate, they should have made her the presidential nominee.
They would easily win with her, she has a lot of experience, and clearly would resonate with a lot of people.
As a person who doesn't really agree with some of her ideas, or some of Sanders ideas, I think purely from a "I dislike the establishment" viewpoint, I'd be a lot happier with her over Sanders.
He seems to have bent the knee a lot more to the establishment in recent years compared to in the 80s and 90s.
foggy fern
shut vine
Open hearings have closed, Lidsey Graham's closing statement was very non-political
restive seal
Probably for the best after his "good old days of segregation" choice of words earlier 😛
Has that soundbite shown up in political ads yet?
shut vine
Sounded sarcastic when he said it to me, but maybe I'm wrong. I have not read any news articles about the hearings yet.
I'd imagine someone would take it and run with it considering the media we have these days.
Political ads I've got no clue (misunderstood the first part), but yeah the media is running with it.
Interestingly my perception of how he said it when listening to the entire context (the whole of the hearings) was exactly the explanation he gave (he called it deep sarcasm).
faint radish
ok, i have questions about the whole "sexual preference" being an offensive phrase.
the reasoning I read, was that it implies that its a choice, rather than part of their identity as a person.
but a preference doesn't equal a choice. Far from it I think. I prefer seafood over indian food because I "chose" that? I don't think so. Do we choose what we like? Its not so simple I think
restive seal
The explanation I saw was that it's a problem specifically when used in a legal context as the phrase "sexual orientation" describes something protected so the deliberate choice (as someone experienced in the law) to use that wording implied some deeper meaning. I didn't spend any more time investigating further, as I haven't felt motivated to dig deeper into it, but that's what I saw offered up as reasoning.
faint radish
yesterday morning, this wasn't there. and by the afternoon, they had added it after Sen. Hirono said it was offensive
restive seal
heh
faint radish
“It’s used by anti-LGBTQ activists to suggest that sexual orientation is a choice,” the senator said in an exchange that swiftly went viral. “It is not. Sexual orientation is a key part of a person’s identity.”
is sexual preference on the same level, neurologically-speaking, as what tastes I like? and if not, why?
restive seal
I think one's desires for life partners and such are a different level of importance over food choices. Maybe that's the angle? falls asleep
faint radish
why is it a different level? humans are biologically inclined towards nonmonogamy
which makes partnering up have significantly less significance
shut vine
Just because a word or phrase is used by a group does not make it offensive.
The logic is just wrong, it means those groups can take phrases used by others and make them offensive.
Which is just stupid.
faint radish
yeah, idc so much about that really. I'm much more interested in "is it, in fact, something we do indeed have any conscious control over"
and if its a subconscious thing, isn't that also a choice we made? I think I consider my subconscious part of me.
and this is also where I get interested. because we get into philosophical debates about free will
shut vine
I mean, realistically it's not super similar as a preference for food I don't think, you can't just will yourself to be attracted to a specific sex. That being said, if you have a food aversion you can't just will yourself to not have that aversion anymore.
I dislike the notion that we suddenly make convenience of communication vocabulary into offensive things though
Being offended is a choice actually
left plover
I've been wondering, why do almost all the staff members from PaperMC have staff on other servers? And why do they all have she/her or are trans/homo?
smoky hedge
Well the former is because people who are likely to be active in the community are likely to be active in multiple places
left plover
I am also active on other servers though, AFAIK there's no way to apply for staff.
Maybe if I change my pronouns or gender I can get staff?
smoky hedge
People aren’t given staff based on gender or pronouns
weary lake
There's no formal staff acception process; some people DM core members to ask or core members DM someone to ask if they want to be staff.
smoky hedge
I can’t speak directly to how staff are chosen. I became a mod by volunteering and presumably being trusted enough to do so
left plover
Mhm okey, I thought that maybe there was more behind it since I've never seen so many people that use pronouns in their Discord names.
near glen
some of the team members decided to add them out of respect
we are a very open and diverse community, which is reflected in our staff team as well
left plover
Do you guys support the name changing of the master branch as well then?
near glen
it was discussed, its too much effort tho, many tooling depend on it being called master
but its something worth considering for when the projects get resetup after we split from spigot
its the new default on github anyways
left plover
What I think that it's insane
smoky hedge
From a philosophical perspective I personally support it in general (not paper specific). There’s little harm in doing so and if it’s less likely to harm people why not do it
near glen
cool
left plover
Nothing racist about "master" branches
smoky hedge
It’s reinforcement of master & slave terminology
weary lake
I personally don't think it is that important. If you named your other branches "slave", then I can see the point, but I've yet to see any project call their branches as such.
But at the end of the day, it's just a branch name, nothing too important.
near glen
ill take one attempt to convince you overwise. to you, its just another work, it has mostly zero impact other than a bit of muscle memory maybe. to others, they may have a way deeper connection, so who am I do deny them that?
I don't care about the name, but others do, so Ill adapt to make others feel better
its called empathy
smoky hedge
Yeah, like if the word is meaningless there’s no reason to use one that people say is harmful to them over one that they don’t say is harmful
left plover
I also have empathy, I've just never heard a programmer complain about it
Yes it's just a branch name, but it's always "just" this "just" that.
It's a slippery slope
To change vocabulary for people that are easily offended
near glen
every change can be evaluated on a case by case basis, no?
left plover
Ofc ofc
smoky hedge
I mean you seem to be the one that’s offended by the change here 😛
left plover
I am not offended
lol
But this is #politics right lol
The fact that I feel like I cannot discuss why it shouldn't be called a primary branch, is weird and it stops freedom of speech
smoky hedge
Freedom of speech is a protection from government intervention in the US
The slippery slope argument is just a fallacy that isn’t really a concrete argument
Also no one said you can’t have a discussion here about it, as long as it abides by the rules
near glen
The fact that I feel like I cannot discuss why it shouldn't be called a primary branch, is weird and it stops freedom of speech
@left plover not sure what makes you feel like that. as said before, we are an open community, we value the opinions of everybody, as long as they follow our simple rules
freedom of speech doesnt give you the freedom to be a dick
I feel like thats much better solved in the german constitution, our basic laws are ranked, the first one being "Human dignity shall be inviolable". freedom of speech, as part of freedom of expression, is only number 5, personal freemdoms, equality and freedom of faith are before that.
plush crypt
obligatory note that we do not promise you freedom of speech, we only promise you the ability to say as stupid shit as youd like within certain parameters (e.g. no homophobia, transphobia, we can go on and on...).
essentially, we're hands off until you start becoming a problem to a larger amount of other members
left plover
I'm not being a dick if I disagree with something that hasn't been proven though or is a discussionable topic
Well Merkel is kinda screwing it up for Germany imo
I like the US system way more
Even in germany though it's not "illigal" to insult someone. Because literally anything you say can insult someone
faint radish
Actually Mini, in the US freedom of speech DOES give you the right to be a dick, the right to be the most racist, hate-filled, PoS you can think of. And the gov can’t do anything about it.
“Human dignity shall be inviolable”. Trouble with that is... it’s very subjective.
opal moat
our simple rules
faint radish
Freedom of expression, I think, is the most important because it sets the foundation to allow dissent against for all the rest, even itself.
pseudo drift
all of this language bullshit makes it real easy to spot people who have to make everything about themselves
opal moat
So many people don't understand what Freedom of Speech means tho. I love how some people argument that they want to write whatever they want on facebook because freedom of speech
pseudo drift
or whose personality is being part of some minority group
faint radish
Right aurora. I’m only talking about protection from the gov. Private companies can, and def should be able to, do whatever they want.
left plover
Well, yeah... But in my world view, freedom of speech should be unlimited. Because hurting someone is less important then progress. Obviously, spreading fake news, hate, terrorism etc. should not be allowed.
But something as discussing about homosexuality is very subjective and not proven imho so it should be an open topic. (not on this server, but in general)
People are scared to say they support trump or don't support homosexuality because of the backlash and real consquences like losing your job.
plush crypt
I'm very glad homophobia is strictly illegal here, and that any kind of discrimination due to sexuality can land you many years in prison
opal moat
Ah yes, because denying people basic human rights is as bad as loosing your job because you are a dick
smoky hedge
“homosexuality is very subjective and not proven”? 🤔🤔🤔
plush crypt
And although I'm not the biggest immigrancy fan, I'm also glad that applies to them and origin in general
left plover
Yes ME4502, because it's based on feelings
faint radish
Well, this kinda links back to what I was talking about earlier. With free will, and if “sexual preference” is offensive because it implies choice.
left plover
I accept that everyone can do whatever they want, and they can feel however they want. They can merry each other, idc. But I can still disagree
opal moat
I accept that but I will disagree
pseudo drift
humans have an innate preference for the opposite sex.
certain factors can change that preference
guess what, still a preference
faint radish
Do you consider your preferences choices? I don’t really have much conscious control over mine I think.
pseudo drift
no
there would not be much of a point in differentiating between preference and choice that way
left plover
We don't know everything about the human brain yet, you cannot measure sexuality with a machine.
So who knows
opal moat
You can also not measure consciousnes with a machine and still most of us agree that we are conscious
left plover
No, consciousness can be measured because of brain activity and things alike...
opal moat
Brain activity does not equal consciousnes
pseudo drift
I can think of an apparatus that could figure out your sexual preference based on brain activity
left plover
Make it with redstone?
faint radish
Yeah, I was going to say... isn’t a key characteristic of being a psychopath that you don’t have a conscious? I think that’s prove-able.
pseudo drift
I think you mean empathy.
left plover
True true...
faint radish
Looking at webmd rn, says psychopaths have no conscious.
opal moat
That word has multiple meanings in that case^^
plush crypt
conciousness: the awareness of your own existence and that around you
opal moat
a good video about that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kX62n6yNXA
plush crypt
exurb1a, resident lover of norway
near glen
Actually Mini, in the US freedom of speech DOES give you the right to be a dick, the right to be the most racist, hate-filled, PoS you can think of. And the gov can’t do anything about it.
“Human dignity shall be inviolable”. Trouble with that is... it’s very subjective.
@faint radish one of the many flaws of the US constitution
Well Merkel is kinda screwing it up for Germany imo
@left plover how so? merkel is literally the best thing that could have happened to germany, and I strongly disagree with her party. germany is in a better position than anybody else in europe
I can think of an apparatus that could figure out your sexual preference based on brain activity
@pseudo drift can that apparatus then directly print it for me? would really like to invest into that then 😄
imagine a bordello where you would get your brain scanned and then the perfect prostitute 😂
plush crypt
I'm yours, mini x
foggy fern
Pretty sure that device would be an fMRI and a slide deck of various people
Also US freedom of speech only protects you if you're speaking in the abstract
If you're racist and say all X people are inferior and should be put down you're fine (unless you're giving a speech or in a position of power, then that could be incitement) but if you tell the person across the street they're an X and should be put down now you're going to jail
This is why stochastic terrorism is the way things are done for hate groups now
They don't know for sure who their audience is, they don't specifically tell anyone do to anything, they just talk about how bad certain people are and how we'd be better off without them and they wish someone would do something
restive seal
Looking at webmd rn, says psychopaths have no conscious.
@faint radish surely you mean conscience there
faint radish
Yeah, I 🤦♂️’d that. Was 5 am. 😅
dusky raft
@foggy fern There is a difference between free speech and intent, with one actually doing it.
If you want to apply that to all the progressives in twitter demanding trump be shot, they should be in jail by now
I am not wanting to defend hate speech, but its a rather slippery slope when implemented in such a way to favor one group
I dont want to see any hate speech laws and the like where a lot of other "free" countries implement
foggy fern
Random person saying they want something means nothing, it only matters if they're in a position for the words to be threatening or if they are popular/famous enough for someone to do what they want to please them
Sadly that second one isn't illegal
dusky raft
so hollywood actors are allowed to say death to trump?
they have position of power and influence
well, hollywood/media
foggy fern
I feel like you're about to point to that redhead I forget the name of
dusky raft
who?
foggy fern
Otherwise I can't think of any hollywood actors calling for Trump to be killed and even her thing was supposed to be an art thing or something
Kathy Griffin
But if they are wishing he was dead, calling for him to be killed, etc and they have an audience then yeah, that's a problem
The only question is whether they should be charged with something like incitement or only after the fact if someone listens to them
dusky raft
The thing is, is it only to be applied when someone has power or when some random person says it?
I see the latter
foggy fern
It's not applied at all, what are you talking about?
This law doesn't exist, I'm saying it should
dusky raft
I meant if such a law exist
foggy fern
So technically everything posted publicly could have this apply to it because you might have an audience now or someday in the future
But you'd probably want to craft it so your intent matters
But that makes it toothless so it's hard
Probably easier for all the social media platforms to just ban such things, they don't have to be impartial or prove things to a jury
Random with 10 followers blowing off steam? Whatever, just leave it. Known agitator with 200,000 followers? Delete that shit.
Enough randoms saying something at once to make it trending? Yeah, that all has to go now
dusky raft
Again, the real problem is going to be bias
dusky raft
how so?
foggy fern
I have access to a larger audience than you
dusky raft
thats not bias... Freedom of speech allows someone to say whatever they want, granted its not libel
foggy fern
equity vs equality
dusky raft
If you have an audience, that doesnt discredit me from saying what I want to say
foggy fern
If you can say correct thing to 10 people but I can say incorrect thing to 100,000 people my idea wins even though its wrong
You need something to tip the scales so correct thing wins
dusky raft
Thats again, not freedom of speech, nor not the intent of it
foggy fern
Correct, attempts to make freedom of speech not suck are not freedom of speech
dusky raft
its to protect the person from government on what they say
Its why you dont have freedom on college campuses or private property
foggy fern
Ah, if you want to limit it to just the law and not the philosophical concept then okay
dusky raft
Yes, I was talking at as a law level
foggy fern
I still think you calling for someone to die and someone listening to you and killing that person should get you something like an accessory or conspiracy charge
Someone or some group
But this is going to be really hard to prove so again it's probably easier for the commercial world to just ban such people in shame after it happens