That's because socialism exists on a scale of "almost but not quite conservative" (Third Way social democracy) to "generous welfare state" (Nordic social democracy) all the way to loony shit like the Soviet Union and, arguably, North Korea
#politics
brisk cradle
opaque prairie
im pretty sure most of the time when people casully refer to socialism they dont mean the hard redistribution of wealth, they mean more like, we shouldnt let people die on the streets for no reason socialism
dusky raft
socialism != welfare programs
opaque prairie
tell the media that
dusky raft
thats a market economy that manages money well providing public services
brisk cradle
Social democracy is a form of socialism, please do a little research next time.
valid steeple
left wing isn't socialist
loud meteorBOT
opaque prairie
left wing isn't socialist
yep fixed sorry, i am tired and it is late
dusky raft
a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means.
but what is a socialist system?
brisk cradle
And on the socialism scale, Bernie Sanders ranks towards the milder end of it, more on the "generous welfare state" end than on the "Soviet Union economic planning" end
valid steeple
socialism is the point where you take property and redistribute it
brisk cradle
In other words, he's a social democrat.
I think The Squad is probably a bit to the left of Bernie Sanders.
But only a bit.
dusky raft
So, My problem is, at what point is taking property to far for a socialist government and what prevents them from just taking everything for themselves?
brisk cradle
Though you could probably argue that Rashida Tlaib is the most left-wing member of the Squad, if barely, since she is very pro-Palestinian single state solution instead of supporting a two-state solution.
dusky raft
a social democracy sounds like its the will of the people that makes things socialist, but what about the people calling the shots? How can they be held accountable for going to far in land grabbing?
brisk cradle
Anyway, I have a silly school exam tomorrow.
dusky raft
ok, ignore the question then
dusky raft
the fuck does that come into play?
I want to know the socialist in office that wont take land just to build his personal mansion on it be held accountable for that
opaque prairie
i want to know the same thing about the current president but no one seems to know that answer either
brisk cradle
Do a little research and learn a little about social democratic leaders who have taken power in Western democracies, and how the countries in question didn't immediately collapse.
I'll help you get started
This guy gave Britain their much-cherished National Health Service and was very anti-communist.
brisk cradle
British Labour is a social democratic party.
dusky raft
then or now?
brisk cradle
Although a socialist, Attlee still believed in the British Empire of his youth. He thought of it as an institution that was a power for good in the world. Nevertheless, he saw that a large part of it needed to be self-governing. Using the Dominions of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand as a model, he continued the transformation of the empire into the modern-day British Commonwealth.
Then and now, although there was Third Way rot with Tony Blair.
You failed to do basic things like use Ctrl+F and search for the word "socialist".
There are 10 mentions of the word "socialist" on the page.
There are references to a book he wrote, which I'm going to guess and say that it probably mentions "socialist" or "socialism" quite a bit.
dusky raft
But I dont see anything in reference that he himself was a socialist throughout his life, he joined a socialist group, but left it from what it looked like
nevermind instilling liberal beliefs into labour to gain liberal support
overall, appears to be a moderate
brisk cradle
The Labour Party is unquestionably a socialist party, albeit one that's more of a social democratic institution.
This goes to show quite a few things:
- America's education system is fundamentally broken
- Nobody bothers to even do basic research (Wikipedia is not a reliable source, yes, but it's a good place to get an idea of what you're looking for)
- The American liberal vs. conservative breakdown is oversimplified and overlooks the complexity of beliefs on both left and right
- Fox News's propaganda has worked wonders on a scary number of people
Good night, tomorrow I need to make my appearance so I can get those Soros checks that I somehow never get despite being promised I'd get them over and over again. The liberal conspiracy is lame /jk
shut vine
Social democrats are pro capitalist economy by definition, with social interventions by the government, it's hardly the same as socialism.
The fact people confuse the two so often...
smoky hedge
but socialism is when the government does more and the more the government does the more socialismer it is /s
near glen
As a German/European: is it worth to watch the comedy show that I assume was your election debate or should I watch a 16 minute summary of a trusted source (aka public funded TV)?
I guess this is a good summary
glass hamlet
The Hill reported that the debate was enough to cause some undecided voters to not vote at all, rather than sway to one side
bleak echo
then the hill is full of shit
the debate was literally tonight
there's over a month until the election
glass hamlet
I'm aware. It was admittedly nothing more than before/after polls so take it with a grain of salt
I should've stated that it was enough to cause some voters to state they intend not to vote
bleak echo
it's obvious headline bait
sharp sun
In some states its pretty pointless to vote
viscid saffron
welcome
sharp sun
like south Carolina for example no democrat is ever going to win
near glen
Then your election system is bullshit
bleak echo
doesn't mean you shouldn't vote
sharp sun
so if you vote democrat you waste your vote
sharp sun
Well people should vote in states where its close so like Florida its really important to vote as its a very democrat and republican
bleak echo
you don't really choose which state you vote in most of the time lol
sharp sun
Its not a popular vote system
bleak echo
you vote where you live
near glen
Ppl should vote period lol
carmine kelp
Even if the person you vote for doesnt win, you still send some kind of message
sharp sun
^ popular vote doesn't matter in electoral college so it doesn't really matter
carmine kelp
If they suddenly go from 90% votes to 60% they are maybe starting to listen to some people
near glen
Even if your vote doesn't have an impact on electoral college (which is actually anti democracy but oh well), it still has an impact on future elections. If there is a trend, ppl will need to act
Idk, tbh, America is just fucked
You never did modernize any of your systems
Like, in Germany we had 3 different states in the last idk 100 years
sharp sun
Electoral college is actually fucked in southern states they can region out area's to split minority votes
carmine kelp
Idk man US seems kinda fucked
near glen
Like, we had decrets too, the things trump is misusing so much right now, Hitler did the same, after Hitler we got rid of that in our new system
viscid saffron
demowav
Also, like I said, Ben Carson was a neurosurgeon with a MD and he's failed miserably at HUD.
carmine kelp
The stuff I see on the news and the stuff I see on reddit...
near glen
US didn't had chances like that
carmine kelp
Well the german regime is also not really one of the best. Its decent
near glen
I mean, we got a really stable government that listens to scientists and doesn't try to divide our country
I don't dare to ask more if I look at other countries
carmine kelp
Yea cause the goverment listens to scientists about the climate change.. /s
The school system didnt change since 100 years
near glen
Of course they do, sadly they have to listen to the industry too
It's a neo liberal conservative gov after all
sharp sun
Alright kids im going to blow my fucking brains out over my calculus 2 homework ill see you later
viscid saffron
Good luck.
carmine kelp
They keep 20k jobs in the coal industry and have to invest money into instead of investing in the renewable energy where you could get hundreds of thousand of jobs
near glen
Don't get me wrong, my views don't really align with the current gov, but it could be so much fucking worse
carmine kelp
Yea it could be worse. But it could also be as good as in sweden or I think also canada
They got actually people in the regime that have a doctor in the area they work in
sharp sun
@near glen watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpamjJtXqFI
near glen
Sweden, aka the country where they just pretend covid doesn't exist?
carmine kelp
So they dont have some freaking 70yo that decides about stuff that is 50 years in the future
near glen
I know how gerrymandering works
carmine kelp
Or the last 2 recent drug politicians in germany ... they both are / were such a joke
Why is weed illegal and alcohol not? - "Because it is illegal"
near glen
Every last transportation politican was a fucking joke
But again, compared to the rest of the world...
We sitting on a very high horse here
carmine kelp
Our goverment isnt really bad. But there is so much room where stuff could go so much better
near glen
Of course
I wish merkel would do another term, she would be a great fit for the greens
carmine kelp
The thing that triggers me the most is the digitalization.
near glen
Because her views also don't align with her party anymore
near glen
Digitalization is hyped up by the media, it's not that bad
You don't need fiber right now tho
Vdsl is good enough for years to come, and we can then expand fiber
carmine kelp
Most people still have <=16k
near glen
Kek, I got fiber in my building but I still pay for VDSL cause I don't need more
mystic ermine
what speed?
carmine kelp
I also only pay for VDSL 100k even tho I could get 500k
near glen
Everybody under 30mbits will get a better line in the next years, gov is already funding that, and had been for years
150mbits can
Cat
mystic ermine
Most vDSL installs over here are rated at like 36Mbps
and many honestly don't even get half of that on a good day due to the whole aging phone system
carmine kelp
You sure the gov is funding that? I never heard that since most of the lines are owned by private companies like Telekom, 1&1 or EWE
near glen
Yes gov is funding you if you bring better internet to ppl with sub 30mbit
carmine kelp
Okay thats atleast a start
near glen
Every fucking cow cattle around cologne is currently getting fiber
carmine kelp
Yea around the big cities
near glen
I don't know how the law is called, but just look at Deutsche Glasfaser
carmine kelp
Like in my home town most of the people still have 2k
near glen
They be building everywhere
It's not near a big city, it's like 40km out
Brb, driving to office
carmine kelp
Aight
NRW seems to do really fine with stuff like that. But there is also the highest population density in germany
near glen
Like in my home town most of the people still have 2k
@carmine kelp if you still have 2k in 2020 the blame is 100% on your major
There are enough funds available
carmine kelp
Possible 
near glen
And it's been a decade
It's really not that bad
Sure, if you select only over 1gbps it looks sad
But if you look at over 50mbps it's good
And over 100mbps isn't much worse
You can zoom into every house btw
carmine kelp
If you select cable only its a lot worse
near glen
Why would you select cable only tho
Cable isn't a future proof tech in any way, while vdsl is, since it brings fiber to the curb basically
foggy fern
Cable these days is usually FTTN too
Although I guess you're talking about FTTC which is somewhat better, not sure if cable is doing that but I don't think so
Of course it's required for DSL to get a speed fast enough to even stream a YouTube video so I guess that makes sense
near glen
Yeah, VDSL is only the last mile, and even a mile is too much for the highest speeds
foggy fern
btw I finally saw a charitable explanation of what Trump was trying to say about the proud boys: "stand back and stand down"
Still not great because it's not a condemnation but at least that wouldn't be him telling them to get ready
Apparently they've added his statement as their slogan or something
restive seal
I hear they're making it into patches.
brisk cradle
When that evil Chinese platform does more to combat misinformation than any other platform. https://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/j2hit2/project_veritas_video_was_a_coordinated/g75rnte/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
restive seal
And that's very charitable as an interpretation of the words of someone who was refusing to condemn white supremacists
Heh, tux. Good night tiktok. Good work. I'll probably kill you in the morning.
elder portal
I am dread pirate roberts!
restive seal
Thank you @elder portal
For some fun, this thread sorted by controversial has some fabulous insults. https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/j2q1g8/standback_and_standby/?sort=controversial
elder portal
I've been baking a lot recently
usually happens around midterms/finals
stress is excellent motivation to start learning to cook/bake
speaking of stress, I've ben following specific Twitter accounts and subreddits for a while now and have put some interesting data on a few Grafana dashboards
sentiment analysis is fun
tweet history is far more difficult than subreddit history
once again I started looking at Trump tweets/timeline and regretted it
hm.
much concern over a legacy
elder portal
admincraft is default
am mostly following political subs
specifically U.S. politics, but there's some world news as well
near glen
ah, just saw the controls
brisk cradle
I mean, Greenwald is right drops mic https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1311304210156314630
just going to say it https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1311153345428631554
Twitter
Think about it, we could've had a real social democrat instead of tired neoliberal nonsense desperately trying to fend off an incompetent fascist who's not even trying to hide anything anymore
Conclusion time: Trump has no plan or message beyond the typical red-baiting and vague threats of violence if he doesn't get his way, Biden promises a return to normal.
A return to normal message probably works when you're running against this douchebag, but I feel like another Trump will run in 2024, and probably with a slightly better campaign.
Oh god, I don't even want to think about Kamala Harris versus Donald Trump Jr.
I have this feeling that Don Jr. would probably cream Kamala in record time.
It'll be the nightmare of '16 all over again.
foggy fern
Twitter
brisk cradle
Kamala Harris was a failed presidential candidate this year, and I seriously doubt she'll be any more successful in 2024, since Biden will probably choose to retire.
She'll have the establishment behind her but that's about it.
Plus, the Trump card hasn't really helped Democrats win voters. People have seen and experienced the first Trump presidency but what happens when it's Don Jr. running?
faint radish
it'd be stupid if he runs. I really don't like political dynasties. Ofc people like them, we all long for a philosopher king.
brisk cradle
I have this feeling that Democrats will be making some of the same mistakes they made in '16 in '24. They're already committing some of them now.
foggy fern
So you think Trump is out in 2020 but his son will run in 2024?
faint radish
if trump wins now, its more likely his son will run in 2024
if he doesn't win now, I'd say its much less likely
brisk cradle
Yes, the GOP is a Trump cult now, and no matter what, I think the Trump family will still retain significant influence in the GOP.
faint radish
I don't really think that'll be the case.
foggy fern
If Trump wins and his son wins in 2024 you can forget about America, it'll be gone
brisk cradle
Well, there's two ways they can go about 2024 with a Trump. They can run the smooth and charming Ivanka Trump, who might even steal some liberal votes, or they can go the red meat route and run Don Jr.
faint radish
wdym itll be gone. in what way?
foggy fern
I think, especially if Trump loses, the GOP will try to pretend they never supported him and toss him under the bus
faint radish
^ see I think that is more likely
foggy fern
I mean shit is breaking already, 4 more years of Trump will probably be enough to break it all the way as is but getting his son in right after guarantees it
faint radish
what is breaking? we still have a constitution, nothings changing that anytime soon
brisk cradle
the GOP will try to pretend they never supported him and toss him under the bus
I don't think this will happen very easily. The establishment will probably reveal themselves to be turncoats as usual, but there will be a very significant pro-Trump faction in the party, and some of that is already in stone this year.
foggy fern
Trump is starting to ignore judicial orders now too instead of looking for workarounds
faint radish
what judicial orders is he ignoring?
brisk cradle
The 2024 GOP primary will be a total mess and it's not even clear who the various GOP factions will be supporting.
foggy fern
They were told they had to stick to the plan of keeping the census count going until the end of October, minutes before they went in to tell the job how they were doing implementing the order they announced it's not going until the end of October
brisk cradle
They don't have to throw Trump under the bus entirely, they can say "sure, the man is flawed, but we did a lot of tremendous things with him"
faint radish
well lets see if that oct 5 deadline passes
foggy fern
btw the constitution only works if all the branches enforce it
faint radish
so far, he's just said he would, and trump says a lot of things that he doesn't end up pursuing
brisk cradle
In 2024, they will be most likely wind up running against Kamala Harris, since it's pretty much all but certain that Joe Biden will want to retire from politics entirely after providing a "steady hand at the ship" or some BS like that.
He'll be in his early 80s anyway.
faint radish
and the checks and balances will work. If trump starts ignoring judicial orders, lots (not all) republicans in congress would turn away from him.
foggy fern
Which reminds me, Trump actually attacked Biden for Obama not getting judges appointed while he was in office
Who does he think was keeping that from happening?
brisk cradle
If trump starts ignoring judicial orders, lots (not all) republicans in congress would turn away from him.
Trump has outrageous things and we only get Susan Collins expressing "concern", that's it.
foggy fern
hint: they carry their house on their back
brisk cradle
And she isn't really concerned unless she thinks she can win re-election with it.
restive seal
If trump starts ignoring judicial orders, lots (not all) republicans in congress would turn away from him.
How can we know this? They supported everything he's done so far.
brisk cradle
Sara Gideon is giving Collins a literal run for her money, this is all I'll say on the matter.
foggy fern
Supported or ignored which is basically supported
faint radish
because that would be illegal. Trump hasn't been indicted by anyone so far, but that is plainly laid out in the constitution. the exectutive has to enforce the laws passed bv the legislature, and not struck down by the court.
brisk cradle
because that would be illegal
Tell that to Andrew Jackson or to Abraham Lincoln some time.
foggy fern
He hasn't been indicted because federal law enforcement isn't allowed to indict their boss
brisk cradle
I'm sure that very logical argument will matter.
faint radish
you can't compare political environments from hundreds of years ago
restive seal
Trump hasn't been indicted by anyone so far
Because of a random ass memo claiming the president can't be 😛
faint radish
when I meant indicted, I meant the house would have actual articles of impeachment.
brisk cradle
Andrew Jackson ignored a Supreme Court order that said "no, you can't forcibly remove Native Americans from the South." Abraham Lincoln flaunted the Constitution by severely restricting habeas corpus.
faint radish
wrong wording.
foggy fern
Mueller report intentionally explained all the elements for an obstruction charge then went through 5 events with Trump and showed how he hit all those elements
But they didn't accuse him because if you can't indict you can't accuse either
faint radish
doesn't the constitution provide methods to suspend habeas corpus?
foggy fern
You have to put the pieces together on your own but they're right next to each other
brisk cradle
In Lincoln's case, there was at least some sort of legitimate basis: the southern states were in revolt.
restive seal
If it's a legitimate article of impeachment, the congress has ways to try to shut down the executive?
faint radish
some sort? Article 1 section 9, "... unless when in cases of rebellion or Invasion, the public safety may require it."
sounds like lincoln had excellent justification
brisk cradle
A gentle reminder that much of the order in this country's constitutional system is based on informal handshakes and agreements.
If Republicans want to ignore all that, then they can and they will.
faint radish
everything in the end is based on informal handshakes and agreements.
if all the military and law enforcement suddenly said we aren't gonna move, this country would fall apart and there's no recourse for that
and that's true of every country
brisk cradle
Democrats will quickly proceed to court-packing, ending the filibuster, and insituting a mandatory retirement age for the Supreme Court justices.
They do not want another Merrick Garland or Ruth Bader Ginsburg to happen ever again.
restive seal
foggy fern
Shenanigans on top of shenanigans but the alternative is a court where Kavanaugh is the swing vote
Kavanaugh believes in the unitary executive theory
brisk cradle
One thing is for sure: if they decide to pack the court or by some miracle the open Supreme Court seat is unfilled by the time Biden takes office and the Senate is in the hands of the Dems, Merrick Garland will get the Supreme Court seat Mitch McConnell denied him 5 years ago.
He'll get the last laugh.
faint radish
I don't actually think the court packing will happen. Sane democrats know that the next time a republican is in the whitehouse and they have the senate, they'll just add more
brisk cradle
Sane democrats know that the next time a republican is in the whitehouse and they have the senate, they'll just add more
But Democrats are now emboldened because Republicans have decided they can throw out those informal agreements.
The risk is there but they will take it.
faint radish
and republicans were embolded by democrates to throw out those informal agreements when Harry Reid nuked the fillibuster for non-supreme judicial nominations
foggy fern
Ah but if they add DC and Puerto Rico at states and ban gerrymandering it'll be less likely the Senate will be locked in Republican in the future but even if they are the House almost certainly won't be Republican again so no new judges for you
faint radish
and that doesn't sound facist? trying to make a one party country?
brisk cradle
but even if they are the House almost certainly won't be Republican again so no new judges for you
Judges are nominated by the president and confirmed by the Senate.
The House has no role to play here.
foggy fern
The house has to pass the bill to expand the court
restive seal
when Harry Reid nuked the fillibuster for non-supreme judicial nominations
Wasn't this because the republicans were blocking them all?
brisk cradle
I'm only talking about the confirmation of judges, at least that's what I thought you meant.
foggy fern
I'm talking about Republicans being able to expand the court in the future
restive seal
Or did they only start trying to block everything after that point
foggy fern
Anyway, right now we live in a situation of extreme minority rule, Democrats have to get over 60% of the vote to get a majority
Those are steps to fix things to be more balanced
brisk cradle
Adding DC and Puerto Rico as states won't really fix the Senate's problems. Banning partisan gerrymandering will probably make the House more representative but does nothing for the Senate, since state boundaries themselves are gerrymanders too.
faint radish
the whole reason there are 2 houses, is to have representation by proportion, and by state
brisk cradle
Even if you split California into 3 states, the Senate would still have a slight GOP lean.
foggy fern
Sure, DC and PR makes the Senate less likely to go Republican but possible, ending gerrymandering will basically guarantee the current incarnation of the Republican party doesn't win the House
brisk cradle
the whole reason there are 2 houses, is to have representation by proportion, and by state
The whole reason there are 2 houses of Congress has everything to do with a painful compromise between free states (generally in the north) and slave states in the south. The southern states wanted to make sure their "pecuilar institution" was unharmed.
foggy fern
Ending gerrymandering isn't even enough though, what they need to do is define Montana's population as 1 representative and then give every other state enough to have the same representation
It'll be enough to cripple the current Republican party but not enough to make things equal
brisk cradle
The "compromise" had the intended effect of entrenching a reactionary institution.
foggy fern
Saw an interesting stat, black americans get 75% of the representation of white americans and latinos get 55%, due to the House and Senate not being proportional (neither one is) and where those groups live
brisk cradle
@foggy fern Remember that state boundaries themselves are gerrymanders too.
faint radish
im almost positive delaware, new hampshire, rhode island, and maybe NJ wanted by state representation. and they were free states
foggy fern
Sure to some extent but if you expand the House so a voter in California has the same representation as one in Montana it won't be as big of a deal
brisk cradle
For instance, if you split off the Florida Panhandle from the rest of the state of Florida, Florida would most likely be a fairly Democratic-leaning state.
foggy fern
That's an argument for getting rid of the electoral college 😛
brisk cradle
Meanwhile, the Panhandle would vote for the GOP in numbers that make Wyoming want to cry.
faint radish
speaking of way left stuff (sorta-ish)
https://www.politico.com/interactives/2019/how-to-fix-politics-in-america/inequality/pass-an-anti-racist-constitutional-amendment/ has anyone read this? this dude clearly hasn't thought this through...
brisk cradle
If I were in the position of revising the U.S. Constitution, the reforms I'd do to Article I would be roughly:
- Eliminate or significantly weaken the Senate.
- The House of Representatives would be elected on a 4-year cycle instead of a 2-year one and coincide with the presidential election.
- All House districts would be drawn in a non-partisan matter with a focus on representing closely-related communities.
- Expand the number of House seats from the current 435 to at least 600 to give better representation to communities while also being sustainable.
- All elections, federal, state, and local, would need to be done through instant runoff voting and no other system is allowed.
As for Article II, abolish the Electoral College and have the president elected through instant runoff voting by the national popular vote and explicitly call out behavior that should get the president impeached.
faint radish
Well, I’m glad no one gave you supreme power to do so. 😆
brisk cradle
For Article III I would add in a maximum term for any judge at any level of 15 years, with some exceptions for senior judges who may fill in cases in case of vacancy.
I'd add an amendment to once and for all overturn the dreadful Citizens United decision that has severely rotten our political system.
faint radish
I’ll think about it some more, but Im pretty sure I’d change nothing..
Well no, already thought of one thing. I’d fix the commerce clause to dramatically curb the regulatory power of congress.
brisk cradle
I see you like the Confederate States Constitution...
faint radish
What makes you say that?
brisk cradle
It has a very similar limitation on it's Commerce Clause.
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes; but neither this, nor any other clause contained in the Constitution, shall ever be construed to delegate the power to Congress to appropriate money for any internal improvement intended to facilitate commerce; except for the purpose of furnishing lights, beacons, and buoys, and other aids to navigation upon the coasts, and the improvement of harbors and the removing of obstructions in river navigation; in all which cases such duties shall be laid on the navigation facilitated thereby as may be necessary to pay the costs and expenses thereof.
faint radish
I like less regulation.
brisk cradle
Arguing about what this clause actually allows is a moot point, since the Confederate States was militarily defeated in 1865, but this could be interpreted as a broad anti-regulatory measure without any real measure of enforcement.
I like less regulation.
I'd like less regulation too but evidence has shown otherwise.
The right-libertarian dream only works in an Ayn Rand book and little else.
faint radish
I see you like the Confederate States Constitution...
I see you approve of Hitler, cause you follow in his footsteps by drinking water, just like he did.
These statements are similar because I am only pointing out a single similarity between them
not saying you follow hitler in anything else. but I can say that
brisk cradle
I see you approve of Hitler, cause you follow in his footsteps by drinking water, just like he did.
That's a pretty facetious argument you're trying to make.
For that matter, you follow in his footsteps too by drinking water and breathing oxygen.
faint radish
just because something came before, in some other form, from someone else, doesn't mean I approve of it
so saying I see you like the Confederate States Constitution is similar to saying you follow hitler because one thing you do is the same
brisk cradle
I see we reached Godwin's Law peak quite early.
I should mention that for the duration of the American Civil War, both the U.S. and C.S. governments were somewhat authoritarian
faint radish
do you understand what im saying tho? You said that just because I like a commerce clause that might resemble one found in that constitution, that I also like that constitution. How is that a valid point to make?
brisk cradle
Alright, fine, maybe I introduced the point badly.
Doesn't really change my overall point though.
faint radish
no, it doesn't but it certainly makes whoever you are talking to take you less seriously
which indirectly, hurts your point
brisk cradle
By making an appeal from Hitler, you kind of destroyed your point as well.
faint radish
hitler had nothing to do with my point
thats an entirely separate argument. talking about the consequences of introducing a point by saying you like this one part of this one thing, so you must like the whole thing
brisk cradle
Fine, maybe I did a reverse reductio ad Hitlerum
faint radish
my reductio ad Hitlerum was in direct response to yours, and had nothing to do with my argument. tho. water drinking isn't related to gov regulation here
brisk cradle
Proposition: I drink water.
Proposition: Hitler also drank water.
Proposition: Hitler is an evil person.
Flawed Conclusion: Drinking water is bad because Hitler did it, too.
faint radish
and I was pointing out the absurdity of that argument
that's what I was doing, making that argument to point out how crazy it is
because you had just done something similar
gotta be a latin phrase for making an argument to demonstrate its absurdity right?
brisk cradle
Anyway, you don't need a constitutional amendment to weaken the commerce clause.
All you need is a Supreme Court ruling to change what it means. The problem is that if you do that, there are many, many problems you have to solve now, since the federal administrative state, by virtue of its legality being through the commerce clause, must be totally dismantled and its responsibilities put onto the states. The problem is that states themselves are pretty budget-strapped and also really like if if the federal government just handled some of the pesky stuff for them.
faint radish
oh yeah, im not saying it would be easy. I guess my change would've realistically had to happen a while ago
brisk cradle
But the question of dissolving the administrative state is not the only question you'd have to answer.
torpid bear
Maybe we need a new government
brisk cradle
The other problem is more of a political one. Going back to a Lochner court era interpretation of the commerce clause also means things like Social Security, Medicare, ... are also illegal, unless there was a political solution, probably by again devolving this to the states.
But the GOP is so intellectually vapid that they don't have an idea for how to realistically deal with this other than slogans and "401(k) are retirement funds amirite?"
The end result? Voter revolt since Social Security and Medicare are third rail issues next to guns.
The GOP's senior support would dry up overnight.
faint radish
which is why I don't have supreme power to change it.
brisk cradle
Stories about starving, homeless grandmas all over the news.
By deconstructing the administrative state so that GOP donors can get their wishes, they are more likely to trigger extreme social unrest than economic growth.
That social unrest could very well destabilize the country so much that the left will resort to violent techniques to get their way.
The George Floyd protests will look like Gandhi protesting the British salt tax in the Raj.
faint radish
and your changes, result in a huge proportion of the U.S. having no say in governance
like, all the people who don't live on either coast
torpid bear
That’s how a democracy works. Only the majority gets to decide, leaving everyone else behind.
brisk cradle
My changes will actually result in more political representation, such that every state gets more House seats to make up for the loss of Senate authority, and majority rule is actually possible.
faint radish
the whole point of having both types of represenation is that they have to agree
brisk cradle
In particular, electing a Congress that will, at least for one term, vote with the president will do wonders.
faint radish
government is supposed to be in opposition. its supposed to be slow, and hard, and make compromises needed.
a congress that will just do whatever the president wants, is meaningless
torpid bear
But right now neither side is willing to compromise on anything
torpid bear
People are too stuck up. That’s causing all of our problems.
faint radish
and I have no clue how to fix that short of WWIII
brisk cradle
That is, if the people elect a president, there is legislative support for their proposals.
In addition, instant run-off voting will force people to be more open to the idea of second and third choices, etc.
Republicans hate it but they'll have to learn how to deal with it.
And you'd get some fresh ideas outside of the rare political outsider who wins a major party primary.
The progressives can nominate Bernie Sanders as their presidential nominee and Biden can say "look, you might support Bernie as your first choice, but here's why I should be your second choice"
faint radish
yeah, I do think a new voting system would be good, to make sure you can vote for your first choice, without helping your least fav choice
brisk cradle
IRV will hopefully tend towards more moderate candidates getting elected.
I'm pretty sure a good 80% of Bernie voters would be fine with saying "I really want Bernie Sanders, but I'll take Joe Biden in a pinch"
faint radish
yeah, you are probably right
torpid bear
But the problem would be whether they would admit that in the moment, or whether people would only put their first choice on the ballot.
brisk cradle
Or you could eliminate the need for a formal nomination process by a party and have everyone duke it out. Pete Buttigieg can beg for first choice votes and ask for second choice ones from Biden voters. Elizabeth Warren voters would be fine with Bernie as a second choice.
I mean, you'd probably wind up with 19-round IRV tallying, but eventually you'd get a winner that represents the majority of the people's will in the end.
elder portal
elder portal
this got me
although I disagree that the debate was a complete waste
a few good points were made, but it was like finding diamonds in piles of shit
thorny wing
they both had some very good points that wouldve been better received if it wasnt such a shit show
elder portal
yeah
thorny wing
even trump had some very valid criticisms of biden, and a few points i think would do well with voters, but he put them between this big rant sandwich so I think they were mostly lost
articulation was a bit lacking
that video is fucking perfect
elder portal
there were a couple jabs that Biden avoided entirely, for sure
but they were just absolutely covered in ranting and straight false claims
completely lost
Biden also didn't manage to entirely avoid deflection and ad homonyms, but those were fairly minimal
near glen
hopefully the next one can be managed properly
I only watched like 10 mins of this one before I had enough
elder portal
I lost track of the number of logical fallacies trump put through
near glen
I just saw on twitter that they gonna shut off mics next time
elder portal
oh, right, Biden's appeal to emotion got under my skin
some very carefully-worded statements on his side as well, but that was much more understandable
Trump was trying to strawman him into a corner
a very aggressive strawman, as well
that one had a knife
thorny wing
I was surprised the candidates agreed to let them mute the mics
elder portal
thank fuck
thorny wing
then again it was such a shitshow they may not have had much choice
elder portal
yeah
well, both campaigns agreed on the rules
not necessarily the candidates themselves
thorny wing
if they didnt run that by the candidates then the campaign staff are morons
especially for trump, who would likely lose it up there if he found it on the spot
elder portal
oh, I'm sure they did
I'm guessing it was more of a "here's how this will work" rather than "will you agree to this?"
still can't get over Biden's ability to absolutely take a pounding on stage
dished some back out, though part of me wishes he didn't
but I think if he wanted to win he needed to jab back with a sharp stick at least some
thorny wing
some people really liked that he did, others hated it
elder portal
not my idea of an ideal debate, though
thorny wing
you risk coming off as weak if you dont, aggressive if you overdo it, etc
really no winning
elder portal
yeah
Trump's whole campaign on "Biden doesn't know how to debate" really screwed him then
set such a low bar
and Biden demolished it
kinda expected that he would
thorny wing
elder portal
Biden has always been good at debate
thorny wing
may as well just cancel them for all 12 of the undecideds out there and the damage they seem to do
elder portal
lol
yeah, not sure who out there can possibly be undecided
unless they live under a rock
I suppose all of 12 people might
tough cedar
opal moat
the irony
elder portal
oh, it was absolutely inevitable
shut vine
Yeah the fact it hadn't happened sooner is crazy
drifting arch
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
FUCK THIS ORANGE PIECE OF SHIT HOLY CHRIST
WHAT A GOD DAMN HYPOCRITICAL FUCK
sorry
but fuck
holy FUCK
"it's a hoax"
gets it
"i will begin my quarantine and recovery immediately."
we shall see
shut vine
It's likely he and Melania will be asymptomatic, because what triggered the test from what I understand was one of his closer aides getting symptoms and being tested. They've not presented any yet.
shut vine
That being said there is obviously the chance he didn't immediately come into contact with the aide in a way that facilitated transferal
drifting arch
i guarantee you trump went and breathed on so many fucking govt officials, whether or not he is asymptomatic or not watch his cabinet come down with covid
shut vine
Well, he's likely to have come in direct contact with someone who was in direct contact with Biden too.
It'll be funny if they both get it I bet.
Since Biden was against measures to protect against the pandemic too.
drifting arch
this country has been a shitshow for far too long it's time to see some comedy
shut vine
Yes, it would be quite something, in a bad sense.
shut vine
Well, if you feel that way once the pandemic is over I'd move.
drifting arch
land of the free more like land of the fucking idiots
yeah, i plan to, have said so many times
shut vine
We don't really know what else is out there until we experience it, and we don't know what we took for granted until we don't have it. Regardless it's a good experience.
Feeling highly negative about a certain thing for a prolonged period is a sign it's a time for a change.
drifting arch
i dont know what you're talking about but ok
plush crypt
simple is gonna move in w me 😳
drifting arch
plush crypt
tbh
shut vine
Cute
The Simpsons has predicted some amazing things, I don't know if I think that's one of them. I think Government officials are probably the most exposed. But still funny none the less.
shut vine
Um?
near glen
shut vine
That's very mature of her.
Yeah, that's taken out of context a little, still a pretty juvenile attack though.
near glen
If mean, you wish nobidy having to deal with any health issues, but if you openly claim it doesn't exist, it ain't so bad and mock ppl for trying to protect themselves and others, I can't stop to feel irony
Am sorry, but I think then you deserve to feel it a bit
shut vine
I'm pretty sure the claim he said it doesn't exist or was a hoax is false, I've never managed to find a video of him saying that even though I have searched quite a bit. I could be wrong obviously.
near glen
I think it's pretty obvious that he downplayed it pretty hard, else the US wouldn't have handled it so bad, I don't even need recordings of him (which do exist), I can just look at the numbers
shut vine
Yeah, he did, he admitted as much and explained that was the advice the medical advisors gave him at the time to prevent panic.
near glen
I mean, the vid about the mask is 48h old
faint radish
Yeah, you can totally argue that he’s unfit, and point out the irony, I just don’t think it’s OK to say something like, well I’m glad he got it and I hope he dies. Or something like that.
shut vine
Part of the alleged reason the medical advisors gave for telling him that is that they didn't want fear, specifically around masks, to cause a mass shortage for medical professionals.
near glen
Yeah, you can totally argue that he’s unfit, and point out the irony, I just don’t think it’s OK to say something like, well I’m glad he got it and I hope he dies. Or something like that.
@faint radish yeah, totally, that's just not what you wish any human
shut vine
I don't know if I agree with the reason, also not sure I believe that's the whole story.
near glen
Part of the alleged reason the medical advisors gave for telling him that is that they didn't want fear, specifically around masks, to cause a mass shortage for medical professionals.
@shut vine I guess that could be true, but that was half a year ago, why the authorities still not demanding masks?
shut vine
Well that comes down to individual states.
near glen
Surely shortages are solved now, they are here in europe for sure
faint radish
Federal gov can’t order that. It’s up to states. And some states do, some don’t
shut vine
The federal government doesn't have the authority to do anything really.
near glen
But surely if the president says something, it has some power over individual citizens
faint radish
And even if they did, states could just override that.
shut vine
The current recommendations by the federal government are to social distance and wear masks.
He has strongly advised people wear them and social distance.
near glen
Just a comparison, our cancelour urges ppl to hold on through, to wear mask, to protect each other, to prevent further shutdowns, on national tv. Your president mocks his opponent for wearing a mask, on public tv.
Stuff like that has a big influence on ppl
Like, if you wanna answer, did you two wear mask last time you were in a store?
shut vine
I mean, it was definitely a juvenile attack - and sends a bad message.
I am from Australia (state of Victoria), our laws are very different. We are required to wear one currently if we are in public other than for very specific exemptions.
I don't know I agree with it, but I also don't think most people are smart... so.. I understand it.
near glen
Ah great, so stricter than here, in germany it's only in most buildings, like stores, restaurant on the way to table, public transportation/stations, etc
Oh ye, I don't think anyone likes wearing a mask
shut vine
Yeah we're in what we call stage 4 lockdowns. We cannot be in public except for essential workers (I am one), shopping, and exercise.
And must wear the masks.
spiral basin
I think Texas is in public = mask required, not sure on specifics.
shut vine
It's probably going to utterly cripple our economy, but anyway
spiral basin
Glasses make masks very fun
near glen
But if I look at infection stats in europe and see that germany is like top 5 with lowest new infections, am really happy with how gov handles this. Only thing that is closed here are clubs, everything else is open, but if you run a buisness you need to prove that you can savely
near glen
Glasses make masks very fun
It's not so bad if you pull up your mask really close to your glasses, protip ^^
shut vine
But the lockdown measures seem a little excessive considering.
spiral basin
My masks aren't portrait monitors lol
shut vine
Oh, 15, my bad.
near glen
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea this is how countries in europe compare
shut vine
15 day average is 15.9
near glen
You wanna look at "14-day cumulative number of COVID-19 cases per 100 000"
Yeah, that's not bad
near glen
But the lockdown measures seem a little excessive considering.
that's the thing about pandemics, everything seems excessive, if it doesn't seem excessive you prolly didn't do enough.
But lockdown is only needed in the first stages, as I said, germany has everything reopened for months now, but we are save about it, close individual cities if needed, etc. I bet australia will go back to that too
Your cases rised again and you went in a second lockdown, right?
shut vine
Oh we will
Yeah, our government made some critical errors which resulted in a second wave.
near glen
Errors sadly happen, but at least they reacted properly
shut vine
They had new arrivals all in quarantine, and instead of using people that were trained they used travel agencies and selected people based on diversity rather than qualification.
State government, not federal.
I was in favor of strict measures early, and keeping the border closed. Short term hurt, long term profit.
That being said, I wouldn't want the decision either.
near glen
That's what we did basically, worked out great
Also helps that we have really good health care and social state systems
shut vine
Yeah I figured a methodology like that would. You make sure you can control it with the least possible inconvenience.
near glen
In other countries millions would have lost their jobs in the early months, here nearly nobody did, since company can apply for short term working, where gov pays like 80% of wage I think?
And new we basically just contact trace the shit out of new cases and if one small area has too much cases, we just send them back into lockdown
And force the general public to be sane, stay save, and wear masks
Gov makes marketing campaigns for following the rules
AHA, distance, hygiene, mask
shut vine
Yeah
I think each country probably has a different "best" solution that will work for them. Population and population density affect things like this a lot.
shut vine
The thing that our government did that I liked the most, is they kept it about the virus, not about politics. Well, in the early stages. The cracks are showing now.
America is a shit show of political agenda's using SARS-CoV-2 as a weapon, it's a little disgusting.
I think social distancing is probably the most important one by a long stretch there.
Well it and hygiene. If you don't do those two things masks don't really have a huge effect.
near glen
Distancing and Hygiene prevents spread in homes, friends etc, masks prevent spread in the general public
They all have their reason to exist
shut vine
Well.. if you touch things masks don't help. Also if you're up close in public they don't help a whole lot.
My point wasn't masks are not helpful, just not as useful if people are not careful about the other two
The role masks play is in preventing a sneeze spreading past the social distancing buffer, in my opinion.
near glen
Yeah, need to follow all 3
mystic ermine
where you live, james?
shut vine
Australia.
near glen
Also places where you don't exactly follow the 2 meter distance rule
shut vine
I did mention, gosh, rude, making me repeat myself.. why don't you read everything I say 😉
😛
WOW!! A personal attack. 😛
From memory you live in GB yea?
mystic ermine
Yea
brisk cradle
Yeah, I heard our Dear Leader caught coronavirus.
But coronavirus is still totally under control and there's a vaccine coming out before the election amirite?!?
looks at China
dense sand
Well this proves, that there isn't a secret vaccaine for peoples who have enught money to know about it, if it would existed.
dense sand
Trump has enught power to know about in my opinion. If we look at the economy, who doesn't want to be in good terms with the leader of usa, who manages 300 million peoples?
near glen
Wait. Ppl really believe in stuff like this?
dense sand
Yes, secrets are all around the world
near glen
Wtf is that supposed to mean?
dense sand
Uh, i sadily need to go now, i'll explain it detailed when i'll be home again!
dense sand
Oh, than we are allies, becuase i'm from the Anonymus
brisk cradle
If we look at the economy, who doesn't want to be in good terms with the leader of usa, who manages 300 million peoples?
Problem is that the leader of the USA doesn't want to be on good terms with anyone other than authoritarian leaders (except for Xi Jinping).
sand shale
https://i.imgur.com/mz5EO0L.png she's staring into your soul
brisk cradle
Anyone remember Jacob Wohl? https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/01/politics/jacob-wohl-jack-burkman-voter-suppression-operation/index.html
viscid saffron
It's ironic but it's also distasteful to point it out, especially while he's still dealing with it.
🤣
@tranquil echo
I don't see the humor in criticizing someone who's currently dealing with COVID-19. There's a time and place for things, but it's not now.
thorny wing
you didnt expect any push back?
humor is subjective
I know plenty of people that think that sort of "you get what you deserve" is funny
and a few that dont
just part of the game
violet quarry
I don't see the humor in criticizing someone who's currently dealing with COVID-19. There's a time and place for things, but it's not now.
@viscid saffron i agree it's not appropriate to wish someone dead or things like that. but when someone seems to take practically every opportunity to make a mockery out of something so serious themselves, to downplay it and be insensitive to those who have it, and who is also in such a position of power, and then they get it... well, i think there should be some room for a broad range of reactions. because the president's reaction has been inappropriate and insensitive many, many times, and people have been justifiably very frustrated.
foggy fern
I don't remember who in here does the OwO stuff all the time but I think I just found their new favorite twitter account
Twitter
near glen
@wanton flint will enjoy it for sure
restive seal
That's beautiful and disgusting all at once
sweet canyon
drifting arch
very disturbing. but...powerful
weary obsidian
Apparently we don't have a strong third line in succession
Or way to remove VP if they are incapacitated
opaque prairie
I thought it went to speaker of the house after pence. Same if a present doesn’t get inaugurated
foggy fern
That's only if he dies
25th Amendment doesn't have any way for Pelosi to assume power if the President and Vice President are incapacitated, only for the Vice President to do so
Also if the electoral college can't decide who to pick the House picks the President (but 1 vote per State, not 1 per Representative) and the Senate picks the Vice President. It's only if they also deadlock that Pelosi would be acting President on January 20th
Twitter
Doctor seems to suggest he tested positive Wednesday and they just pretended he needed to be tested and went public with his positive result after Hope Hicks's test leaked
foggy fern
That would mean he went to a rally (or two) after he knew he had it
opaque prairie
yes it would. i wouldnt put that past him and his team so
near glen
Hey, I watched designated survivor, I know how this ends!
weary obsidian
@opaque prairie read the article. it SAYS it goes to the speaker, but its questioned that its unconstitutional to go to the speaker, itll be challenged
the writers of the amendment screwed up
opaque prairie
yep, thats on me. school always made it seem so simple
i am more curious about the the outcome of the therapuetic trump is using
shut vine
The article is wrong, Article II delegates the authority to choose the acting president in this case to Congress.
The line of succession only applies to death or a believed permanent condition that would render the president AND vice president unable to serve.
shut vine
Considering there is no acting president at present (Trump still actual/acting), and Pence is currently negative, unlikely to be an issue anyway
shut vine
Oh also, it's not just the House Speaker, the Senate President pro tempore, or members of cabinet may all equally become the President pro tempore in a double permanent incapacitation situation (line of succession). In fact the most common person to be next in line after the VP is the Senate President pro tempore (historically). Only on 1 occasion vs 21 has it been the House Speaker.
drifting arch
https://imgur.com/a/AergjZQ
@sand shale is she? being serious
or is this facetious
elder portal
it's terrifying that we don't know for sure
smoky hedge
Based on her previous tweets I’d say serious tbh
weary obsidian
@shut vine the article was talking about theoretical that if both did die from the virus, that speaker is supposed to be next but Republicans will challenge it
shut vine
Ah I see.
shut vine
I missed a whole paragraph when scrolling, makes more sense now. Yeah, the Act laying out the line of succession is not part of the constitution or an amendment. Additionally constitutional amendments technically contradict it.
Additionally the amendment that contradicts it, was made after the Act.
1947 Presidential Succession Act vs 25th Amendment 1960.
weary obsidian
the amendment was suppose to clear it all up
amendments are stronger than acts
but the article has a fair point, as written it does muddle the separation of powers
restive seal
foggy fern
tough cedar
sand shale
what a moron
deft bronze
Moron level up!
foggy fern
thorny wing
I dont know that I have the mental strength tonight
drifting arch
same, i can only watch an hour anyway
got class soon
well already..it is uh...more civil.
clear maple
it is.. like 😮
drifting arch
This channel is for real political discussion, not inane yelling. If you want to say something, say it without full caps and say it with backing statements.
I don't think he really answered the question that was asked, though.
The question was "why is the death count so high?" and he answered "why isn't it higher than what it is?"
Do you disagree
Yeah, but that wasn't the question that was asked. He's turning it back around to blame.
I'm trying to look at it objectively.
thorny wing
it's a question designed to be spun
drifting arch
Yeah, true
thorny wing
wasnt there an article about fauci and him saying something about shutting down the economy just this morning?
drifting arch
That I'm not sure
drifting arch
Well, perhaps a dangerous oversimplification, but it seems that Pence's stance is "american freedom > response to covid" and Harris' stance is "response to covid > anything"
thorny wing
idk I'd sum either of them up that way
pence wants to pivot to freedom where he's weak on his covid response
harris is going to hit him especially hard there because of that
I wouldnt attribute either of them to that one back and forth
drifting arch
yup
thorny wing
it's politics, it's not the art of truth, its the art of spin
tell the truth where youre strong, spin where youre weak
that sounds like a prepared remark, given that she just said she was all for a vaccine if fauci and experts said so
clear maple
all she is saying is trust the doctors on your health not the president
thorny wing
idk why he didnt adjust that a bit
drifting arch
wtf, is he seriously throwing prospective numbers
"if it didn't stop, then we would have had 2 million ..."
but it did stop my dude.
w0t
clear maple
hope not
thorny wing
its the VP debate, on a normal election year this would be all dodge and spin
this year is all sorts of fucked though so who knows
Im sure they did
but I would assume thats presumed confidential
you wouldnt go and give details on that conversation to the whole nation
all depends how they spin
if they had done better with covid than xyz
well but yxz so it could be lower
did the admin even affect the economy at all, zyx
etc etc
economists arent even settled on these issues
the idea that we'll get a good response in a 2 minute soundbite is ... funny
ye and there's the natural response
ye we lost them because of covid, but we got them all back because we good at covid
would something else have happened if some other plan was in place before, after, etc
who knows
clear maple
her laugh though
mystic ermine
I mean, given her comments about joe...
thorny wing
bah thats all politics
you saw what they all said about trump during the election last time
now all those repub senators are his best friend
drifting arch
god DAMN
thorny wing
I think its all a little weak
drifting arch
she just shut him down like a parent talking to a child
thorny wing
you knew that was going to come up
drifting arch
"im talking, little boy. ill wait. are you going to let me finish?"
thorny wing
the "trump is just riding the obama admin economy"
drifting arch
"okay, good boy."
thorny wing
which... not an unfair argument
interestingly, she's usually far more assertive than this
drifting arch
check this pov though, she let him interrupt to show the american people that he couldn't hold back
mystic ermine
I know somebody who had to get a second job when ACA came into play
drifting arch
but showing that the other side cant respect the rules of the debate shows the opponent is a pos
it goes both ways
thorny wing
if you interrupt back you're overly aggressive
if you don't you're weak
it's all up to the viewer's interpretation
this is a performance as much as anything
thorny wing
I dont really care for either of them tbh
pence is a raging nutbar
she's got an awful record
but this is the VP debate so, basically snipping at eachother and spin are the name of the game
drifting arch
yeah we're literally picking between two plates of shit. one is steaming hot, and one is cold. which one you wanna eat?
that's what this election is
thorny wing
if the presidential debate hadnt been such a shitshow, this would probably be worse
historically, the VP debate is much more dramatic
they have more leash
trump is a bit of an outlier
whether his style of confrontation remains when he's gone, whenever that may be, will be interesting
speaking of spin
both sides need to define "green new deal"
feel like you can call it whatever and spin to your hearts content
the version in congress was extreme in comparison to what they want now
and I think there was a third in there somewhere
yeah
there's a bit of that all over
I think people like the wiggle room
tbh even if youre still undecided, I dont know that there's a lot of information here
both are spinning whatever they want
unless you didnt realize it was being spun
drifting arch
they're assuming Pence knows the definition of 'existential'
thorny wing
not really
climate thing works and has worked, despite not all countries following it
whether it puts country x at an economic disadvantage is a different argument
farmers are very subsidized
they have suffered as a result of the china thing, despite that
Im not qualified to say "how much"
but they are more subsidized now than they ever have been
thorny wing
pence tends to go over a bit longer than she does
viscid saffron
yeah
thorny wing
the moderator has been throwing some leading questions at pence though
I assume she's going to do that to harris as well
viscid saffron
but like 3 mins ago she went over for like 45 secs and was only interrupted 3 times
thorny wing
wallace was just woefully underprepared for the shit show that blew up in his face
I did laugh when people said he was a liberal afterwards though
how disconnected can you be
I think he was just coping and struggling to figure out what to do
that entire debate was awful
idk that I can think of anyone doing better unless they had more tools, like muting the mics
thorny wing
well thats the solution theyre using going forward
guess we'll see when the next one comes around
Im pretty sure the truth on that one is somewhere in the middle of that argument
but spiiiiiiin
i dont remember what the question was but Im pretty sure she didnt answer it
clear maple
is China friend or foe
thorny wing
it was a true survey result
this was in the middle of trump backtracking on the Iran deal
pissing off all of europe
mystic ermine
what's their stance on china, friends, foe, competition, etc
thorny wing
I dont think anyone is pro concentration camps
she was trying for a different angle, but I dont think landed the argument tbh
just seemed like she didnt answer
🙄
yeah because any president in office wouldnt have handled ISIS
just as dumb as obama claiming the bin laden raid as an achievement
wat
yes
and they responded no differently than trump
its not like trump rallied the troops and everyone showed up and won it in a weekend
if obama got a third term in some weird universe it wouldve been handled under him
its not an achievement, just a fact of the timeline
I cant imagine any circumstance in which I'd attribute it to him
trump sure did talk a big game because that was the hot topic in the media
but trump always talks a big game
he's famous for his bs
NK was an enormous failure
wtf
Im still not clear on how they managed that, Ill give them that
lolwut
what
theyve been going to the olympics
nuclear testing has been underground for decades
yes
2017
pence trying to say all the shit about trump and the military is slander is a pretty awful response
then again I dont know what else he would say
"yeah he doesnt like them"
whats the spin for that
kinda surprised he hasnt hit harris harder on some of her DA history though
clear maple
"Vice President Pence" is the sound clip of the debate
thorny wing
its not that he disagrees with them
or even the leaders
its all the soundbites of him shitting on military families that kill trump
tbh his adversarial relationship with the intelligence community has won trump some applause
ah yes
the christian persecution complex
no one cares that she's a cult member
they care that she's a cult member up for SC quoted as saying government exists to further religious goals
she has
most people dont really pay attention to the judicial system
most people also havent paid attention
or dont care
that congress as a whole basically ceded a ton of responsibility to the executive
in the last... what 30 years
hmm?
I think he did
it was largely seen as a symbolic gesture
ACA already protects preexisting conditions
it was also very recent, just a few weeks ago
not sure what spurned that
doesnt matter
there are no rules governing the amount of seats in the SC
it has fluctuated a bit but remained static in the last 50 or so years
they're doing the same thing
SC is all power
thats why trump and mcconel are trying to get barrett through before the election
> has historically never gone well when it gets changed
not even going to touch that
it's all a power grab to get x party's nominee on the court
because the SC has no term limits and a ton of power
fdr the guy who won the election so many times they put in term limits?
clear maple
you give a non answers to so like..
thorny wing
must not've been so bad
clearly didnt destroy anything though
Im sure it was controversial, but everything is with the SC
term limits for the SC would help the situation
a normal pattern of people in and out, where its less of a dramatic political fight
the idea would be if you had a more regular rotation, each pres would just inherently get 1 pick or 2 picks
rather than this random drama that comes up once every 10-15 years
clear maple
it is really about the constitution now though?
thorny wing
no
the SC really doesnt have a lot of constitutional regulation
they're free to interpret laws, strike them down, legislate from the bench, etc
thats why its always such a drawn out knockdown fight
eh its not even that well defined
you start getting into sub-party shit
I mean it is a little ridiculous its still criminal
that is the correct response to her though
"well wtf were you doing then"
ofc if she did stand up for that and not prosecute, would she have made the name she did, gotten where she did, etc etc
idk not generally a fan of her record
clear maple
did she say that got it wrong? or that there was not Justice?
thorny wing
tf is on pence's head
thats what I thought too
I thought she was never gonna get through for that reason
what is that
lint
a large fly
in the last 3 minutes or so
she is brave
if he's smart he'll hit her right back
clear maple
does he not fell the fly lol
mystic ermine
hasn't both of her main points there on trump already been debunked?
thorny wing
ehhhh
trump has a history of not quite being as forceful as he should on the issue
I think it's more of a "dont shittalk your supporters issue"
but certainly plenty of sound bites of him saying shit he really shouldnt
thats a shitty argument
he'll need to find a better one if it it keeps coming up
foggy fern
The Charlottesville condemnation was not very clear, if he condemned them at all. He was very vague and talked around it a lot
thorny wing
israel != jews
plenty of jews unhappy with the state of israel and america's continued support
yeah and the nazi's took a swastika and ruined it too
symbology is symbology
foggy fern
Democrats quote one sentence, Republicans quote another, neither one is a complete view of what he said
foggy fern
He kind of condemned them, kind of not, he kind of walked it back after he did it, etc
thorny wing
just brings up their name over and over
she's done that to both of them a few times now, harris was kinda catching up
there are some weirdly curved questions here though
yes
foggy fern
I thought that was someone upstairs 😛
thorny wing
I think its just someone with an annoying sneeze in the audience
faint radish
I haven't watched any of the debate... anything interesting?
mystic ermine
as somebody with a full on fuck off sneeze, I find that offensive
thorny wing
not really
faint radish
is it calmer than the last one?
thorny wing
they're both far better at spinning things than either of the prez candidates
yes far
more typical debate
elder portal
Z, you ran away :(
thorny wing
from what
elder portal
From my love
thorny wing
I left like 15 guilds tonight
elder portal
Aha
foggy fern
We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides. On many sides.
elder portal
Rip
foggy fern
That was Trump's first statement about Charlottesville
thorny wing
I still dont understand his apprehension on that
Im just assuming its the "any supporters are good supporters"
well one side is nazis
so saying they're equivalent to the other side is always going to be controversial
foggy fern
One side is nazi fucks, the other side are people trying to stop them from doing whatever they want
thorny wing
its ducking the issue
foggy fern
The other side is the good guys, how could they be bad 😛
thorny wing
even if you disagree with them on whatever issue
foggy fern
Anything else makes it sound like you're with the nazis
thorny wing
its drawing a false equivalency
it should be a one line easy answer
thats why he keeps getting hit with it
the issue is that when you're asked "are nazis bad"
answering "all sides are bad"
faint radish
if one side is spouting nazi points of view, you still don't get to perpetrate violence against them. pretty sure the ACLU has had a lot of high profile cases defending actual nazis from persecution because of their speech.
clear maple
Tried?
they did
foggy fern
It was the nazis that ran someone over
faint radish
well it was one person, I don't think literally everyone ran over someone.
thorny wing
it wasnt even a matter of encouraging violence against nazis
foggy fern
Who knows who threw the first punch or whatever but one side were nazis clearly armed and ready to fight, the other side were people there to oppose them
faint radish
you aren't saying violence against a group is justified if one member of the group commits an act of violence?
thorny wing
you can use the next line to say "and some shit is bad"
foggy fern
@faint radish no because then I'd be saying shoot all the cops 😛
But nazis are just bad, full stop
I think violence is justified against them in particular
foggy fern
You can make a slipperly slope argument about calling everyone nazis but these fuckers were literally chanting "blood and soil"
faint radish
yeah, ok there's the real issue. violence against speech is never justified. violence against violence can surely be.
thorny wing
pence has an interesting pattern of speech in general
if you tell someone to go hit someone
and you get hit
I have no sympathy
certainly defended plenty of speech I disagree with
but calls to violence are calls to violence
faint radish
well what are calls to violence? If Person A over here is a flaming racist, and says all <insert race here> are sub-human, is that a call to violence?
thorny wing
not inherently no
foggy fern
You have to draw a line in the sand and say some things just aren't allowed
thorny wing
you're framing a hypothetical out of a real event though
foggy fern
My line is nazis
thorny wing
we're talking about the failure to condemn actual violence
not hypothetical
thats why it gets brought up so often
even racist presidents from 60 years ago didnt have a problem with it
you just gave the answer
faint radish
when it comes to speech, no, no line in the sand.
thorny wing
plenty of grey
I dont see a clear winner tbh
there were some good exchanges
a lot of spin
faint radish
I think people confuse speech that incites riots with speech. you can incite a riot with speech, but if you say the same words a week later and nothing happens, its not an issue.
thorny wing
speech inciting a riot in one context but not another is inherently different speech
if you incite a riot with your speech, even the constitution doesnt protect you
if that same speech doesnt in another context, youre fine
faint radish
yeah, and I agree w/that but its the inciting the riot part that got you in trouble
thorny wing
no
there were literally riots, calls to violence, actual violence
it shouldnt be an issue to say "yeah that was bad"
foggy fern
Bill Kristol says Harris was #1, fly was #2
thorny wing
idk how you could say she won
clear maple
well see you all for next Debate (maybe)
clear maple
I bring icecream 😛
thorny wing
I didnt notice anything about his eye
idk maybe he had a big poop earlier in the day
clear maple
oh here my fly picture because you know the fly https://unreal.codes/2020/10/8/1602123533492-chrome_fztPg79Edy.png
thorny wing
lol
foggy fern
thorny wing
I like that we can disagree and come to different conclusions and have different thoughts and it all stays civil and nice