Fuck unions which throw out the apples tryna get rid of the bad apples
#politics
shut vine
Fuck unions in general
sharp bronze
Just do it the Cali way and legalize everything
mystic ermine
Police either need more funding, or they need to stop being the scape goat for lack of mental health support, etc, etc
sharp bronze
Can't have criminals if there's no laws to break
mystic ermine
states need to push more for social care instead of expecting an officer who deals with rough criminals and is trained specifically for those situations from being thrown into situations on the entire other end of the spectrum
sharp bronze
Except maybe discrimination laws
shut vine
I actually agree mostly with legalization. Firearms, drugs, etc. Police the behavior not the item.
faint radish
lol, CA is getting rid of discrimination laws too
faint radish
pretty sure they just legalized hiring discrimination
sharp bronze
What
shut vine
Well it makes it hard to discriminate against white people if there is a law against it. 😉
sharp bronze
Doesn't sound like Cali
mystic ermine
There was something like that recently where it turned out that that clause was never actually valid anyways
shut vine
It's not, federal law
faint radish
sharp bronze
How is it discrimination now
It's to allow more minorities to be hired
LoL
I thought that didn't sound like Cali
faint radish
its discriminating against non-minorities
shut vine
Because that's discrimination against anyone who isn't a minority
If you hire someone due to their race, gender, etc rather than their unique qualifications to complete the work, that is discrimination
sharp bronze
That literally doesn't make sense lol
shut vine
It literally does, you have to use logic instead of stupidity to figure it out
faint radish
you think you can only discriminate against a minority? yikes
sharp bronze
Discrimination is prejudice plus power
mystic ermine
Part of the issue with those types of laws is that they often encourage people to vote on race just so that they can meet some imaginary statistic
sharp bronze
The most opporesed literally can't discriminate like that
shut vine
faint radish
lol what? no, discrimination literally means making a desicion based on some factor
we are talking about racial discrimination here, so its making a decision based on race
mystic ermine
The idea is that it would be racist for me to hire somebody who's white because they're more qualified, vs hiring a black woman who is much less qualified because "she's a black woman, and I gotta meet my quota"
sharp bronze
Let me put this here but I'm looking for another thing
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-auditions-orchestras-race.html
faint radish
well no quotas.... SCOTUS has already said thats unconstitutional
sharp bronze
This explains well why what Cali is doing is desirable
shut vine
Blind auditions are good, they are not racist at all
sharp bronze
Even if it's about something else
shut vine
They literally can't be
faint radish
orchestras should be a meritocracy
if I was a conductor (idk who picks people for an orchestra) I want the literal best person I can find
because I want to create the absolute best product for myself, and others to enjoy
mystic ermine
Can't even read it
shut vine
I don't need to, it's the NY times, they put their content behind a paywall which I will not pay for.
sharp bronze
lol what? no, discrimination literally means making a desicion based on some factor
@faint radish
mystic ermine
But, the header for that article is fucking yikes
shut vine
racism definition, not discrimination definition.
mystic ermine
TO be less racist/sexist, we need to start considering peoples gender/race in processes...
sharp bronze
You dont yike a yiker@mystic ermine
shut vine
You're literally not even trying to stay on point
mystic ermine
wat
faint radish
zzzCat, right, cause you know, in art, a painting must have at least 10% blue, and 5% red to be even CONSIDERED good 🙂 gotta be diverse
😆
shut vine
He keeps jumping from one thing to another, we're talking about discrimination, then he's bringing up a definition of racism
shut vine
mystic ermine
wat
shut vine
I can bring up other definitions, let me get the MW one since you like it
faint radish
no one ever wants to talk about the Asians here... what about them? way better than white people in academic circles, businesses whats up with that?
sharp bronze
No it's fine
shut vine
sharp bronze
I lost my train of thought
What I mean is, it might be discrimination against non poc, but it can't be Racist
As we've seen the definition of racism includes power
shut vine
Saying you can't be racist against a white person is literally racist
sharp bronze
Which whites hold disproportionate
white wing
Boi you are changing the word discrimination.
sharp bronze
The dictionary is@white wing
white wing
He has to be a right winger acting like a crazy left winger
sharp bronze
Because of popular demand
white wing
what?
faint radish
oh, thats a racist colonizing anti-poc dictionary dont ya know 😛
mystic ermine
if you wanna change the meaning of words as defined by the people who define the book of words
shut vine
sharp bronze
I said it earlier and it stands, what is acceptable and isn't comes from the people, not a law or definition made by some white dudes 200 years afo
white wing
You realize the discrimination doesn't just apply to race it also applies to other things. If you add power to the definition it wont make sense in other uses.
shut vine
MW says the same
mystic ermine
Seriously, fuck off
faint radish
ok, just don't use the word racist. just say, making a decision based on race, means you think one race is inferior/superior to another
mystic ermine
The word means what the word means, if you wanna redefine that word for your own argument, what else are you going to redefine?
sharp bronze
@mystic ermine @faint radish @shut vine
As it says there, the definition was written in different times and means something else now
faint radish
Im no longer using the word racist.
Discriminating against non-poc, means you think one race is superior/inferior to another
white wing
It really doesn't mean something else now
shut vine
Power is not mentioned there
faint radish
discriminating against poc means the same thing
mystic ermine
I give up
faint radish
change all the definitions you want, but you're gonna have to go all 1984 if you really want what you say, to be true
shut vine
I actually argue it doesn't matter if the definition changes
mystic ermine
at the point where we're literally redefining words from the dictionary as a debate point vs trying to use something which actually describes what is going on, we're literally going to go nowhere as we're literally gonna spend all year redefining stupid words instead of some form of discussion
white wing
Wait isn't it racist to say that because a certain race made a definition that it's invalidated because of their race?
mystic ermine
There are also multiple definitions of how that word can be defined in that screenshot
shut vine
It's still WRONG and DISGUSTING to not hire someone on merit, and instead use their skin color as a guide to decide who to hire
sharp bronze
Power is not mentioned there
@shut vine it says so a few lines above, you'd know if you'd even skimmed it before criticizing it
faint radish
thats what I was saying... idc what the word racist means,
racial discrimination means you think one race is superior/inferior than others
mystic ermine
Fun fact: 2 of them are literally the exact same points as is.
sharp bronze
@mystic ermine and the whole point of the article is to say that the definitions are obsolete?
mystic ermine
You literally never linked it
How the fuck are people to know what the heck you're reading if you don't link it?
Seriously
white wing
That's an e-mail to merriam webster not an email by merriam webster.
sharp bronze
@mystic ermine bruh
shut vine
Yeah MW's definition is the same as the others.
mystic ermine
oh, I missed it
sharp bronze
@white wing an the editor of the dictionary said that the definitions are indeed too ancient and they expect to revise them
Whatever
shut vine
But I argue it's irrelevant.
It's still WRONG and DISGUSTING to not hire someone on merit, and instead use their skin color as a guide to decide who to hire
@shut vine
mystic ermine
what?
sharp bronze
Criticizing it before even reading it
mystic ermine
I read the header of that article, I can't even read the actual article
I literally stated that I cannot read it
I stated that based on the article header, that's yikes
white wing
Dude I read the article you didn't read the article. You just googled and found an article with a title that suited your argument.
sharp bronze
AH the article says what I said, so im right (even if the article is mentioning why that part is wrong)
mystic ermine
wut
white wing
You changed your argument from the definition is to definition should be
sharp bronze
The definition is prejudice+power
Institutions are waking up and updating the paperwork
shut vine
The updated definition is the one I linked.
white wing
no institutions are being pressured by people who don't know what actual racism is.
white wing
can you post the link again I can't find it
white wing
oh it's just merriam webster
shut vine
The definition is still not suggesting it's exclusive to power
white wing
Yeah that's what I thought was going to happen. I didn't realize they already changed it
shut vine
It doesn't even mention power, just systemic things
white wing
Because it's not groups that are not in power can be racist.
shut vine
After reading the article it's clear what they are adding is 2 a
"the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another specifically : white supremacy sense 2 "
It's not a replacement definition, it's an additional one
white wing
Asians used to not posses any power in the united states especially during the WWII era. But it doesn't mean they weren't racist.
sharp bronze
Damn mad props they already changed it
shut vine
Either way, saying a person cannot be discriminated against because their skin color prevents it, is in itself discriminatory, immoral, and wrong.
And disgusting.
sharp bronze
Probably planning on changing it slowly to avoid backlash by the usual suspects
white wing
Dude I'm pretty sure Ondiset just get spoon fed his opinions and doesn't actually think when he makes them.
mystic ermine
So
shut vine
Free and critical thinking is literally not trendy anymore, sheepthink is.
mystic ermine
some dude in a hiring office is racist because he hired a white person who was the most qualified or experienced canidate is racist?
sharp bronze
No?
How'd you get that
I mean
You specified he's white so if that was part of the choice maybe
shut vine
Lets say there are 40 candidates, 39 are POC, one is white, and the white person is the most qualified
Who should he hire?
mystic ermine
it wasn't part of the choice
white wing
No this "new" definition would change the language so that minorities can't be racist. So basically they can't be bad guys.
I'm a minority and other minorities have been racist to me you're "new" definition makes no sense.
shut vine
Definition 1 would apply " a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race"
sharp bronze
Lets say there are 40 candidates, 39 are POC, one is white, and the white person is the most qualified
@shut vine the person that's most qualified is the one that gets hired.
What changes is that they probably are allowed to take in consideration characteristics of the person besides how much he knows about the job to quantify how qualified they are.
In the same way that a bar owner might choose a girl if they imagine that will go better with the patrons etc
mystic ermine
You hire the best canidate for the role
shut vine
Okay so, if a orchestra hires the person who plays the best, what's the issue?
mystic ermine
if you don't, your business goes to shit anyways
sharp bronze
@shut vine the article says that people don't care to listen to the orchestra, and that having more poc is supposed to make it more attractive to the community
sharp bronze
That's what the article talks about
white wing
@sharp bronze Right let's say that I chose a white person over a black person for a job even though the black person is more qualified. The only reason why I chose the white person over the black person is because of race nothing else. That would be racist right?
shut vine
We are not going to pay for the NYT just to read it is all
white wing
Now reverse the roles
sharp bronze
No it's fine@shut vine
shut vine
I mean that's fine and all
sharp bronze
@white wing if the owner thinks the community or the team will prefer that, he can then
feral blade
stupid question but what are you guys arguing about? don't feel like scrolling all the way up am and confused
shut vine
But why can't the person deciding how the orchestra candidates are picked decide it's only based on sound?
white wing
Bro you just avoided the point of the question
shut vine
How is that a problem?
sharp bronze
@shut vine they can, it's just not successful with the community
shut vine
Sure, then they fail
Like any free market
Then someone who wants to do it differently comes along
Makes all the money
white wing
@feral blade @sharp bronze thinks that for someone to be racist they have to be in a position of power.
shut vine
Then all the POC's become rich, happily ever after
sharp bronze
Yeah, and since they don't want to fail they want to be allowed to hire people that won't make them fail @shut vine
shut vine
Ah yes, discrimination laws
Sure, if we can hire people just because they're white since we think POC's will make our business fail
Let it be so
sharp bronze
Yeah that's the point
shut vine
Change the constitution, and get it done
sharp bronze
If it helps uplift the most opporesed in the nation
sharp bronze
Don't let some paper written by an ancient cabal of white dudes stop ya I say
sharp bronze
It was put in after the civil rights movement
white wing
So back to my earlier question:
Right let's say that I chose a white person over a black person for a job even though the black person is more qualified. The only reason why I chose the white person over the black person is because of race nothing else. That would be racist right?
If you reverse the roles it's still racist to say it's not would be hypocritical.
mystic ermine
,,,,,,,,,,,,
You appear to have run out of those, have a pack of them, should keep you going for a little while
runs
sharp bronze
@shut vine it's in new York, it's some law they passed in the 60s
Yeah that sums it up
If whatever hiring practice you're following is keeping bame disproportionately out of your business, you should probably revise it
faint radish
that tells me no information. What if only 1.8 % of total orchestral musicians are black?
shut vine
I thought you were suggesting it was fine to pick people for an orchestra purely on race?
mystic ermine
I mean, Igotta be straight up honest
white wing
Maybe it's just that specific race is not interested in clasical music? Did you ever think to explore the options instead of going the easy route and just pinning it on racisim?
sharp bronze
mystic ermine
how many people do you hear "When I grow up, I wanna be in an orchestra"
shut vine
Never heard a person say it in my life
faint radish
yikes, that article is literally saying black people are worse than white people at orchestral music
super racist
black people arent good enough to get hired on talent
shut vine
I know a guy who plays in a Celtic marching band though
white wing
I've heard a few and they where all white. It's music is a culture and orchestras are a culture that is european. It would happen that eupropeans mainly all white.
sharp bronze
white wing
It's like wondering why there aren't a lot of white people in native american style bands.
shut vine
This sounds like a conspiracy theory
white wing
Or why there isn't a lot of white people playing african style music.
mystic ermine
During the day, I drive round the hood blasting Dr Dre on my ghettobox
faint radish
but again, this bit of affirmative action is just saying that poc aren't good enough to get in
sharp bronze
I've heard a few and they where all white. It's music is a culture and orchestras are a culture that is european. It would happen that eupropeans mainly all white.
@white wing
Exactly, the while point is to make it more appealing for all
mystic ermine
By night, I'm the leading act at the philharmonic
shut vine
Yeah affirmative action is detrimental to people who actually take advantage of it
It sets the bar low, which means they don't actually earn the position on merit
faint radish
you can only enjoy music that is equitably racially diverse? I don't recall that contributing a sound
white wing
So to make it more appealing to everyone what do you want to do?
mystic ermine
The thing is that it's a huge cultural gap between the two
shut vine
Doesn't teach responsibility or hard work at all
sharp bronze
It's like with women jn sciences. They were excluded for centuries from all scientific fields and people are surprised they do much worse than men. With quotas were finally balancing the issue and seeing many more female scientists
faint radish
also, if you have affirmative action, all it does, is any POC who get in and DID have the skills to be there, are looked at by others "wow, you only got in cause of your race"
shut vine
There are fundamental differences in the way male and female brains work generally speaking
white wing
Quotas didn't really help with that science and engineering is still a male dominated field. Unless you're including social sciences.
mystic ermine
part of the issue is that we've seen racial hiring at work
shut vine
It's not really a fact disputed fact among psychologists.
faint radish
James, you must've missed the news that there is literally 0 difference between men and women that isn't a social construct 😛
mystic ermine
it often pulls down the average ability of the workforce due to people getting hired on merit vs qualifications
shut vine
Males gravitate to things, females gravitate to people.
sharp bronze
@white wing not saying the work is done, but steps forward from being burned at the stake for doing chemistry don't you think
shut vine
Our passions are partly biological
white wing
No you're missing the point qutoas don't do jack shit.
mystic ermine
Well, quotas help lower the barrier for others
faint radish
if im on a surgery table, I want the BEST surgeon, not someone who got in because they had to meet a quota
sharp bronze
Quotas balance the inequalities that were engrained in our system by centuries of discrimination
shut vine
Not really
white wing
what
mystic ermine
I was on a compsci course
shut vine
They further the issue
white wing
So you want everything to be 50 50?
mystic ermine
I gotta be honest, the majority of the class where morons
white wing
Equality of outcome?
mystic ermine
There was also probably a handful of women in the class
faint radish
Equality of opportunity > equality of outcome
white wing
@faint radish that's an understatement
faint radish
yes
shut vine
If you make it easy for x race to become a brain surgeon, that race is not going to magically get better at brain surgery.
mystic ermine
Same in high school too, our computer class was small as all shit, we only had one girl in our class who picked computing
white wing
You can't have equality of opportunity with equality of outcome. It's not possible.
shut vine
In fact there is no incentive for that race to get better, so why even try?
sharp bronze
So you expect institutions that were founded by men, and ran by men teaching to other men for hundreds of years to not discriminate against women when they opened to them too
shut vine
Just coast on in on the merit of your skin color and get the big bucks, and sue the fuck out of anyone for being racist even if you kill a few people and get fired.
sharp bronze
As if we don't have the records of it happening
mystic ermine
They don't teach individual people, they teach classes...
faint radish
if they do discriminate, public opinion takes care of them
white wing
I have seen many girls who where smarter than some guys in my compsci class quit compsci for something else. Not because compsci was full of sexists but because they where interested in other subjects.
shut vine
My sentence is butchered but I think my point is clear.
faint radish
if a company sets its own quota, idc, companies can do whatever they want
but a government setting a quota is interfereing too much with the free market
sharp bronze
@faint radish @mystic ermine public opinion gets them now, but it took a couple hundred years of yammering to people that women can be just as good as science than men
shut vine
So you see, a smart business will not refuse to hire a woman just because she's a woman.
white wing
Ondsinet your ideas go against the science
sharp bronze
Which some people in this chat already rejected anyway...
shut vine
They will hire a woman specifically if that person benefits the company.
And is going to make them money.
faint radish
#FreeMarketFTW
mystic ermine
But, the thing is that we're at the point where most of these issues have been moved past, there will still be current inequalities up the chain just because of how old some of the people there are and the time they moved up
Harponing on past issues vs trying to solve modern ones is entirely counterproductive
shut vine
Realistically speaking, women are getting a better education now than men ever did.
sharp bronze
So you see, a smart business will not refuse to hire a woman just because she's a woman.
@shut vine they do now after hundreds of years of normalizing the idea that women and people of colour are just as good as science as white men.
faint radish
are there things that women aren't as good at as men? and vice versa? or is that a myth?
shut vine
How good we are is largely dependent on our passions.
If we're not passionate about science, we're unlikely to be good at it.
sharp bronze
That goes for any subject @shut vine
white wing
You're missing his point
mystic ermine
"I'm a trans woman, if people can't beat me at sport because I'm trans, they need to git gud"
shut vine
Psychologically speaking women are not as interested in science, things, etc. They are more interested in social things and people.
faint radish
oh man... I get so mad at that issue... especially in fighting sports...
shut vine
Not all women of course
sharp bronze
are there things that women aren't as good at as men? and vice versa? or is that a myth?
@faint radish don't be a joke about sandwiches plz
faint radish
I was literally asking...
mystic ermine
I mean, my grandma does make fucking awesome sandwiches
faint radish
or do you think men and women are equally good at everything
shut vine
If we're not interested in something, chances are we will not be passionate about it
Women are much better than men at many things, and vice versa.
sharp bronze
or do you think men and women are equally good at everything
@faint radish
Yeah, pretty sure that a woman that's passionate about something is gonna be better than 99% of men that don't care about the subject, and same for men
shut vine
Again, I'm generalizing. There are exceptional people in every field of any gender.
white wing
In social sciences it is seen even among apes that males tend to be interested in thing and females are more interested in people.
If this is a known fact then it would make sense for a field that focuses on things like areospace engineering to be male dominated.
faint radish
thats not what I was asking @sharp bronze . I'm asking if there are differences between men and women. This is all on average ofc, never talking about one specific person
shut vine
Though I don't know many exceptional female sanitation workers.
feral blade
They might average out to be better/interested in different things, but person to person you probably shouldn't be trying to compare
white wing
The thing is the differences really isn't that great.
faint radish
btw guys, have you heard about this big sexist issue? We need prison affirmative action. More women need to go to jail to even that out, amirite?
sharp bronze
In social sciences it is seen even among apes that males tend to be interested in thing and females are more interested in people.
If this is a known fact then it would make sense for a field that focuses on things like areospace engineering to be male dominated.
@white wing
If that's what the people hiring in that field think, no wonder it becomes a self realizinf prophecy
mystic ermine
people hiring look at the canidate pool
shut vine
It's not about averages, it's a well documented and studied psychological fact there is a significant difference in the interests of men and women, in fact countries that move closer to equality, like the Scandinavian countries, see that this divide just becomes bigger.
white wing
What? That's not what people hiring in that field thing. That's what the canidate pool looks like as zzzCat stated.
mystic ermine
They have women working in aerospace engineering
white wing
And that's not what people think that's what's fact and what has been observed by scientists.
mystic ermine
The major thing that these companies are complaining about with stuff like being expected to conform to quotas is that the candicdate pool doesn't even allow that
shut vine
Yeah it's a huge psychological experiment, spanning the globe.
sharp bronze
btw guys, have you heard about this big sexist issue? We need prison affirmative action. More women need to go to jail to even that out, amirite?
@faint radish
If you're going by that logic a looot of white men would have to go to jail
mystic ermine
Some article from 2019 shows that the gap was actually narrowing
shut vine
I mean.. what percentage of violent crimes are committed by white people in the USA?
sharp bronze
The difference in reasoning boils down to 2 interpretations:
1)The inherent racism of the system of law disproportionately affected minorities
im racist
mystic ermine
faint radish
whats the percentage of black children that are raised in single parent households?
shut vine
FBI's stats on that are pretty damning.
white wing
faint radish
its staggeringly high in comparison right?
shut vine
It's roughly equivalent to the percentage in prison.
In fact single parent household is a very good metric for determining criminality.
faint radish
thats a major issue. kids are always better off raised by two parents.
AND NO that does not demonize single parents who have a massive job, and a super hard one
and its also not saying that women/men should have to endure abusive relationships either
mystic ermine
I mean, there are studies which show that
shut vine
It demonizes social programs that incentivize certain groups to be single parents.
mystic ermine
apparently the "single parent" nation these days is causing lots of harm towards children
white wing
The difference in reasoning boils down to 2 interpretations:
1)The inherent racism of the system of law disproportionately affected minorities
- im racist
You're making a very complicated problem with many variables into a simple problem to suit your political inclinations.
sharp bronze
I mean.. what percentage of violent crimes are committed by white people in the USA?
@shut vine the entity that was founded on oppressing blacks is telling us blacks are criminals and deserve to be jailed, therefore blacks being over represented in jails is justified
faint radish
always was the wrong word
shut vine
.... so if they are committing more crimes they deserve to be less represented in prison?
faint radish
I shouldn't use infinite words like that
shut vine
Statistics would disagree with you
faint radish
shut vine
There's actually a study on that
mystic ermine
was actually reading that one as I was going to link
shut vine
Shows that parents who stay together even unhappily have a better chance of raising a functional adult
white wing
Yeah you where lucky
mystic ermine
There are studies which show that people raised by single families are more likely to have issues like depression/anxiety and have issues at school, etc
faint radish
lol, wtf is this? was linked in there https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-46261699
shut vine
Yeah, and we are NOT saying a single parent can't do a good job.
white wing
In general a divorce is not a good think for children.
shut vine
It's kind of an impressive when a single parent can
faint radish
yes, absolutely.
white wing
To say otherwise is well weird
mystic ermine
It's complex
shut vine
You should be thankful if your parent did that single handedly, like super appreciative
faint radish
the conditions of the divorce dont really matter long term. its about having two adults constantly in your life together, rather than 2 separated or one
shut vine
They had to fit the nurturing and the disciplinary roles.
It's so hard to be both, and to earn
white wing
What no you can only mitigate how bad a divorce is you can't make it good. It's going to be bad on the child/children period.
mystic ermine
We're not saying that they're not impressive that they're able to raise a family on their own, what we're saying is that it does have proven disadvantages on the child
sharp bronze
But you are ignoring that many if not most of single parents black families lack the father because of the persecution blacks face by the law
shut vine
The social system rewards black mothers when the black father leaves.
mystic ermine
if people are commiting crimes, they deserve to be handled by the law
But, there defo needs to be reform
shut vine
They get a specific monetary benefit because they're black compared to single white mothers
mystic ermine
and they defo need to fuck off with certain aspects like pulling back on drugs, etc
white wing
@tawny edge I could have worded that wrong can you explain to me what you think I said?
mystic ermine
That's part of why I like the recent cares act and reforms
shut vine
Yeah the anti drug legislation is not helpful, prohibition never has been
sharp bronze
@white wing father being abusive or something like that, can't see that being bad for the kid
shut vine
Biden actually spearheaded the anti-crack legislation
mystic ermine
There are ofc outliners
shut vine
Which disproportionately affects black communities
mystic ermine
if the father is an abusive drunk, etc; That's not part of the statistics as much as common sense
sharp bronze
I mean how the government poisoned black communities with drugs, started persecutions that still go on and the circle of inherited crime, something like that
faint radish
also, looks like a high % of black children are born out of wedlock. in 2015, it was 77%...
white wing
Yes I mean that if you had no divorce or your family has no need for a divorce you are most definitly going to have a better life. If that is the only factor.
mystic ermine
ofc, not having a father will have a negative outcome vs if they where raised by both, but, OFC; basic common sense says that if the father is an abusive drunk, or the mother is an abusive drunk, that will have much greater negative effects on the child
faint radish
what are those 3 things that you can do to not be in poverty your entire life?
- Graduate high school
- No children before marriage
- Get a job
mystic ermine
marriage is dumb anyways, but, that's a different matter
white wing
Now some people bring up a good point your family may be better off getting a divorce if you have a shitty parent. But it would in general be better if that parent just wansn't shitty.
That's my point
shut vine
Marriage is, but it cements dedication to the family, much harder to leave when married
faint radish
well depends on what you mean by marriage... but in this sense, its two people committing to raising children together,
white wing
Well no that's not even the problem
shut vine
I actually think they should outlaw divorce except under specific circumstances, but that's another story
sharp bronze
white wing
If you're a kid and you have a mom and dad that's going to be the norm. If suddenly that changes that's going to be a big and most likely negative impact on your life.
mystic ermine
I think they should just fuck marriage off as the religious sham it is and have something that the state recognises that isn't tied to religious dogma...
shut vine
You've not even heard what the specific circumstances are
But okay
Feel free to judge my opinion prematurely
mystic ermine
Yes, but marriage is more a religous thing than a socital thing
faint radish
some people add the religious element, but they are 100% free to do it
white wing
Yeah marriage shouldn't be something that is standardized by goverment.
mystic ermine
The issue is that to me, marriage is essentially this thing where the government and religious orgs generally hold hands with one another
faint radish
the government definition of marriage doesn't have anything to do with religion...
its two people joined together for various legal/tax purposes
sharp bronze
Henry the VIII should have been decapitated on the spot
faint radish
lots of people add the religion into marriage because its important to them
white wing
I'm also using divorse as a general definition of a couple with a child seperating. You don't really have to be married to raise kids.
faint radish
and maybe religion came up with the word "marriage" but that is just semantics really
come up with a different word that the gov can use, whatever
shut vine
Divorce should only be legal in my opinion if; there is no child involved OR; there was a violent act by one partner, psychological abuse, or infidelity.
white wing
Yeah I don't think people where really talking about the legal definition of marrage.
faint radish
the goverment only cares about the legal definition of it. so I dont see what the problem is
mystic ermine
The thing is that marriage is more a thing pushed on by religion vs society, the only reason for people to get married is either because there is some benefit to it that you spot out and figure "we should do that", or, because you're religious and that's what you do
faint radish
yeah, "pushed on by religion"? just dont do it
faint radish
ooo I sense a chance to bring up a new topic.... the wellbeing of children who aren't born yet
shut vine
Do black unborn lives matter is your question?
sharp bronze
👀
shut vine
White ones don't, that's a fact. /s
white wing
I really couldn't care less about abortion. (speaking of first world issues)
shut vine
I'm 50/50, think a reasonable limit is first trimester, also don't think it should be an operation anyone should be forced to do.
white wing
There are arguments on both sides that make sense and it's not a fact based topic it's all about opinion. The problem is both sides demonize the other.
shut vine
Let the free market decide after that
white wing
It really depends on when you think life starts and that's a topic that's too jank for me.
faint radish
well I think people on the pro-life would say... I can demonize someone who thinks its ok to murder someone
shut vine
Well I'm pro-life, but that's my personal decision.
I think it's reasonable for a government to say first trimester is the cut off.
faint radish
why should murder be defined by the government?
shut vine
Ah, let the free market decide?
white wing
I think both sides have decent arguments and I personally can't decide but I'll go with either or. It's a give and take type of deal.
mystic ermine
The issue is that there comes a point where the unborn child is capable of surviving outside of the mother and basically just starves to death
white wing
Yeah but see that's not a fine line zzzcat
mystic ermine
(and that's outside of religous/moral beliefs)
sharp bronze
Abortions were introduced in America as a business by white supremacists looking to control the black population. In the modern day it has become a major crutch for white feminists that for some reason want to abort their babies and that think their freedom to have sex without birth control is more important than the horrible racist history of abortion in America
shut vine
I think the first trimester is a reasonable period of time to decide if you can support the child.
white wing
That can really depend on the type of care that is provided in that region.
faint radish
I mean... thats a long time... 3 months is a while
idk how long it takes women to figure out they are pregnant tho
shut vine
I mean, true.
brisk cradle
mystic ermine
Nobody knows
shut vine
Maybe we should make the cut off 100 years old.
white wing
@shut vine you keep saying the first trimester but you also should say why you think it should be the first trimester to bolster your argument.
shut vine
After that aborting your child is illegal.
white wing
again I forgot , don't hurt me @mystic ermine
mystic ermine
The issue is that we need to draw a line in the sand as to where it's basically cruel on the life being terminated
brisk cradle
Oh wait, y'all are talking about abortion.
mystic ermine
At the end of the day, you are taking a living being and killing it
faint radish
lol Tux, what did you think we were talking about
white wing
Also stop strawmanning guys it doesn't help
the topic changed 3 times in the last 3 min and every time we change the last topic is still open.
shut vine
Yeah sorry, I was using exaggeration for mostly comedic effect.
shut vine
Well he's a compremise
shut vine
All abortions must be recorded, and the parents supporting the abortion must watch it
faint radish
humans value intelligence in species... the more intelligence it has, the less likely we are to be OK with killing it
mystic ermine
Do you believe that a woman should be able to get an abortion a week before the due date?
faint radish
hell no
brisk cradle
Personally, I am a believer in choice. The government should try and stay out of peoples' personal lives.
white wing
We should eat chickens because of the cycle of nature. It's just natural. We don't eat other humans because it's more efficent for us to keep other humans alive and work together to stay alive.
brisk cradle
I do make some exceptions, but generally that's where I stand.
faint radish
yep, the government should not get involved if I beat my wife. its personal
lol no way
shut vine
I agree mostly Tux. Question is when does the child get the same rights?
faint radish
it 100% should
sharp bronze
I never got the "at which age are they alive" argument
The moment there are 2 cells in the womb it's alive, if it wasn't alive it would've aborted itself already 🤔
faint radish
both are destruction of something tho right?
mystic ermine
Well, that's where the issue comes is defining when it's "alive"
white wing
I'm also a believer in choice but people make a good argument about killing a life.
mystic ermine
is it when it's two cells, or, when it's capable of processing stuff like pain, etc?
sharp bronze
That literally has no impact on being alive tho
shut vine
I'd be fine with the pain part.
valid steeple
you have two cells
brisk cradle
yep, the government should not get involved if I beat my wife
Um, no.
Question is when does the child get the same rights?
It's complicated. It's not like you can ask the fetus if they'd like to be born, can you?
white wing
and no one can put a solid definition on when life starts that everyone can agree with.
faint radish
Im big into the gov getting the hell out of my life, but im perfectly find with the government preventing loss of live
shut vine
I'm a supporter of small government.
sharp bronze
If some dude is born without being able to feel pain, he is still alive isn't he. Just because his nerves don't work doesn't mean you can beat him up
mystic ermine
That's not the point, ond
same question to you, ond
Do you believe that you should be able to abort a birth a week before the due date?
brisk cradle
Furthermore, I often see anti-abortion rhetoric paired with all sorts of "loss of life" stuff like the death penalty, getting rid of worker safety regulations, and support for war in any case as long as they're "non-Christian"
sharp bronze
Not really, no@mystic ermine
mystic ermine
and that's my point
sharp bronze
But on a personal feeling, not in an argument
shut vine
My only question with abortion is when do we say the baby should be afforded the status of alive.
mystic ermine
but on a personal feeling
That's entire what the issue with pro-life is
and, pro-choice is
sharp bronze
I'm just saying that the "feeling pain" argument diesn make any sense, not that you can't make another argument for being able to abort at some point
faint radish
I guess I more meant the intentional taking of a life
more than accidental loss of life
white wing
see one scenario that the pro life people bring up is the coma scenario. You wouldn't kill someone in a comma so why would you kill a unborn baby or something along those lines.
The thing is those lifes are different, one has already made human connection the other hasn't. So one has only potential and the other one has proven potential.
shut vine
Also if a person kills a pregnant woman, the same status should apply. i.e. they should not get more time if the baby is considered not alive.
mystic ermine
What I'm saying is that there comes a point where even you disagree with abortion
brisk cradle
If you were truly pro-life, you'd support all these things and more, such as programs for taking care of newborns and their mothers, state-subsidized child care, universal health care, and paid paternity leave for at least the mother
white wing
or something like that word be hard.
brisk cradle
But, ya know, conservative cancel culture is weird
sharp bronze
@brisk cradle I'm pro those and I'm pretty sure most countries have them too
mystic ermine
imho, paid paternity should be given to parents, especially given the huge role that the first few weeks have on babies
shut vine
You mean the cancel culture which affects conservatives?
brisk cradle
@sharp bronze Not the United States of America.
sharp bronze
None of the states?
shut vine
Yeah, both parents equally
brisk cradle
@shut vine Nope, I'm talking about instances of cancel culture instigated by conservatives, go do some research if you want to know what I am talking about.
sharp bronze
I know some of the states do
shut vine
I think the cancel culture in general is stupid.
white wing
If you were truly pro-life, you'd support all these things and more, such as programs for taking care of newborns and their mothers, state-subsidized child care, universal health care, and paid paternity leave for at least the mother
You can support newborns and their mothers without goverment involvement.
shut vine
Doesn't matter who perpetrates it.
sharp bronze
But cancel culture often is just what racists yell when society doesn't want to have to do with them
white wing
But cancel culture often is just what racists yell when society doesn't want to have to do with them
But cancel culture often is just what feminist yell when society doesn't want to have to do with them
But cancel culture often is just what POC yell when society doesn't want to have to do with them
shut vine
If dialogue doesn't occur things wont change.
brisk cradle
You can support newborns and their mothers without goverment involvement.
The current system doesn't work. and I'm not seeing any of these "pro-life" organizations actually helping children and their mothers.
sharp bronze
Oh I called a bunch of people the n word, and now people don't want me on their TV program, cancel culture bad
white wing
You can legit say that for anything
The current system doesn't work. and I'm not seeing any of these "pro-life" organizations actually helping children and their mothers.
You don't need to go to organizations either to help newborns and their mothers.
brisk cradle
You don't need to go to organizations either to help newborns and their mothers.
So the magic of the free market will solve all problems? 🤣
The free market has been amazing at consolidating wealth and little else, really.
shut vine
That's not a great argument Tux, what they support is not relevant to what every person pro-life supports.
white wing
The current system doesn't work. and I'm not seeing any of these "pro-life" organizations actually helping children and their mothers.
You mean spreading wealth? You do realize that with no free market the spread of wealth would be a lot worse.
sharp bronze
The free market has been amazing at consolidating wealth and little else, really.
@brisk cradle tbh that's because the corrupt government goes to great lengths to enrich who's already rich and make laws to keep it that way
Like how they keep saving the same companies that are too big to fail
shut vine
Correct, which is not free market.
sharp bronze
Indeed
white wing
That's not an issue of the free market that's just an issue of any hierarchy
shut vine
Let them fail.
sharp bronze
If the government wasn't so keen on keeping bame down we might see some real diversity when talking about income
shut vine
And stop using legislation to give insurance companies a monopoly and 1000% pay increases over 10 years.
brisk cradle
The point is that most people don't want children because of inadequate social safety nets and climate change producing a hellish world for them to live in
sharp bronze
----> government comprised of a bunch of rich white guys that have been in power for 400 years makes laws keeping themselves rich and in power
Heh, the free marked really failed you, all the rich and powerful are white men
shut vine
Yeah I agree. The money needs to be invested into that rather than abortions in my opinion.
mystic ermine
It's not a free market when you have governments throwing cash out to save companies which fucked up
white wing
@sharp bronze you realize the US is only 200 years old?
shut vine
Either way there needs to be more equal support for all families.
mystic ermine
The government is far too buddy buddy with some of these large companies
brisk cradle
More than 200, do some math next time.
shut vine
Don't use facts Seki, he doesn't like facts
sharp bronze
State funded abortion clinics are about as close as open genocide of blacks as the USA can go
brisk cradle
More like 244.
sharp bronze
@white wing but you realize the white colonizers were around before that
You can to back to England, before the us was even explored
mystic ermine
Don't come here
shut vine
Oh yeah it's 250ish years
mystic ermine
Trust me
We have boris
But, we also have the queen, proof that imortality is real
white wing
Yes onsinet I do realize that it doesn't really change the fact that the US has only been around for 200 years.
white wing
Also I don't understand why you're making race important again.
brisk cradle
State funded abortion clinics are about as close as open genocide of blacks as the USA can go
It's true that Planned Parenthood had roots in the "progressive" eugenics movement. However this isn't really true, in fact the plurality of people who get abortions are white, how strange is that? https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-states
mystic ermine
So
A white guy, a pakistani, an indian and a nigerian move into a flat
Not a joke, that was my life 2 years ago 😄
brisk cradle
White patients accounted for 39% of abortion procedures in 2014, black patients for 28%, Hispanic patients for 25%, and patients of other races and ethnicities for 9%.
shut vine
That could theoretically be explained by other factors of course
white wing
yeah 13 percent of the US is black
shut vine
But it would be presumptive to assume one way or another I think
Since the picture isn't clear
sharp bronze
Saying that whites abort more often is such a misleading thing to say
No wonder
They are the majority
shut vine
Correct, but the reasons for the numbers is what matters, not the numbers themselves
sharp bronze
The issue is that blacks are over represented in this particular issue
brisk cradle
At 2014 abortion rates, about one in four (24%) women will have an abortion by age 45
The US is about 50.8% female: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US
So that would be ~12.2% of the population
shut vine
Solving issues is more important imo
sharp bronze
Yeah but you see how misleading that is?@shut vine
white wing
I was about to say the female ratio went down and then I realized 50.8% is 51% 🤦♂️
shut vine
I do, that was literally the point I was making?
white wing
Oh
again let's change the argument
Oh shit the argument isn't going my way? Let me just flip is and try to recover.
shut vine
It's a bit like 56% of the violent criminals are black, I don't think that makes black people bad, and there is a margin for error, I think the number of violent crimes that make it to a conviction are like 47% or 57% or something low like that.
Solving issues is important, not the actual figures
brisk cradle
Article seems pretty biased
Yes, it's biased. It's from an pro-abortion rights organization.
sharp bronze
Seems fair
Everybody's gotta eat
If I ate on black babies dead bodies I'd be pretty biased too
white wing
Strawman!
shut vine
We can blame everyone under the sun for the issues, or we can figure out reasonable solutions to reduce the occurrence of the issues.
feral blade
who da hek da stawman
shut vine
Who?
brisk cradle
I don't view abortion as a problem. I view it as a consequence of our terrible social support system
white wing
well james has stopped using strawman arguments since I told him to stop mainly talking to Ondiset
sharp bronze
@white wing I'm pissed at the article
white wing
Doesn't justify a strawman it's counter productive.
shut vine
But I stopped all the same.
white wing
You're just demonizing the other side and again that's counter productive to the conversation.
sharp bronze
I says in the headline there is no issue because the majority of abortions are from white people, even tho 13% of the population make up 28% of the abortions. Anybody's guess why, but saying it doesn't disproportionately affect blacks because Whites make up the majority is such an abuse if math
shut vine
It's disingenuous that's for sure.
sharp bronze
@white wing I'm not demonizing the other side, im fine if y'all can't figure out when to put a condom on. My issue is with the article being disingenuous
shut vine
The article is factual, but it's deliberately misleading.
white wing
if the 13% of the population makes 28% of the abortions then yes that issue mainly affect that 13%.
sharp bronze
@shut vine we don't even know if it is factual
Again, don't trust the car company to tell you why they have the best car
white wing
Btw no idea what article you're talking about but what you just said made no sense
shut vine
Well, for argument sake we can just assume.
We don't need to investigate the statistics to know there is some silly business going on.
white wing
@sharp bronze I don't need to know what article you're qutoing to say what you just said made no sense
at least it made no sense to me.
shut vine
Well from my recollection
sharp bronze
Are you sure it's not the part I extracted from the newspaper that confuses you?
shut vine
The article headline was that a majority of people who get abortions are white
So the article is trying to imply that it's white people who do it the most, not black people
Which purely from numbers, that's true, but in statistical analysis you can see that blacks do it more frequently on average / as a ratio.
sharp bronze
Yeah James got it
shut vine
That was his point I think
white wing
Ah well yeah the article is wrong. Ondiset you worded it like you had a problem with the article saying black people are the ones mainly affected.
My bad.
shut vine
Yeah just a misunderstanding
shut vine
Well the article is technically correct, but it's deliberately misleading.
sharp bronze
For real tho, morality aside, abortions are complicated, expensive and have long lasting effects on the body and mind of the woman
shut vine
I didn't read it, probably should.
sharp bronze
It's not like getting other prevention methods isn't 200 times easier
@white wing well tux posted it, I read it and found it dumb
Then y'all proceed to tell me why I'm wrong about the article without having read it
😭
white wing
wait
white wing
tux posted it?
shut vine
Interestingly it points out that it's the lowest ratio since the laws inception
Which is good
Yea
shut vine
I think so, reading it now
sharp bronze
I think so
shut vine
I was lead to believe the headline was something else
Think I just misunderstood now that I look back
sharp bronze
@white wing @shut vine the article also mentions the lady was not racist too, other sources say she worked with the kkk
Idk man
shut vine
Ah I was responding to the claim that it mostly affected white people.
Well, she's an individual from a polarizing point of view.
People tend to make up shit about those people.
Trump is a prime example
sharp bronze
More than that
She herself might have said one thing in public and another in private
We will never know
shut vine
People need to take what MSM says with a grain of salt, and question all of it.
sharp bronze
I can see why the quote at the bottom might mean 2 separate things depending on context
But the fact that the first article openly misled people
Yiksies
white wing
The way I see it with accusations it's innocent until proven otherwise.
shut vine
Nah I think the first article was okay now that I'm reading it
I think it's mostly representing statistics
I can't see anything op ed really
Considering it's from a pro-choice org it seems pretty reasonable
sharp bronze
This article clearly is if the opposite side and it says the opposite, despite probably following the same exact data lol
shut vine
I can admit when I jumped to bad consclusions
sharp bronze
shut vine
That could be explained by them setting up in poorer areas since richer areas don't want abortion clinics in their area
sharp bronze
@shut vine nah bruh white girls love their abortions
shut vine
I'm tend towards being skeptical
sharp bronze
It's like getting ice-cream or something
Who better to drive home West’s point than the keynote speaker of the infamous 2017 Charlottesville rally, Richard Spencer, the notorious neo-Nazi and alt-right white supremacist. During his speech he explained how abortion advances white nationalist goals stating, “The people who are having abortions are generally very often black or Hispanic or from very poor circumstances.”
Yiksies
shut vine
Yeah, well that could be explained by socioeconomic factors more so than race too
A lot of people think these issues are cut and dry, I don't think they are
It takes a lot of work to understand underlying causes in social issues
white wing
Shit I'd like to join in on the convo but I got busy doing shit
sharp bronze
Ugly convo anyway
shut vine
I lean towards the single parent thing making a huge difference
shut vine
Well, they are important issues to solve, regardless of cause
white wing
and I'm free again
shut vine
They're only ugly because society shuns those who actually want to talk about it
white wing
No that's not why
it's because the people who participate in these discusions demonize the opposing side.
sharp bronze
Nah they ugly because they make me think of trashy girls recording their abortions for twitter likes
shut vine
Elaborate? Maybe you misunderstand me.
white wing
Yeah I shouldn't talk in staggered messages that's my bad I hate it when people do that.
sharp bronze
All I have to say is as much, there are 200 methods of birth prevention that are easier, cheaper and don't involve the gray area of what's life or not
shut vine
I think talking about what causes these social issues only has a single representation.
White men did it
If you talk about any other cause you're racist
sharp bronze
Except the fortunately very rare cases of rape babies, which make up a 1% of the cases last time someone yelled me about it, you are free to have any discussion you want
shut vine
Yeah I agree, that's individual responsibility.
50% of abortions people used contraception though.
white wing
wait hold up it doesn't look like that article has a conclusion.
shut vine
Yeah that's what I said earlier
Seems like a pretty reasonable article only representing statistics, not really interpreting them.
sharp bronze
In the other cases where the issue could have been prevented entirely by using a condom, I am both sad that s life has to be estinguished, but also somewhat glad that a woman that can't regulate her vagina won't be raising a child
white wing
wait what are you guys blaming white men for?
sharp bronze
Naw dog it's white woman now
shut vine
I'm not blaming anyone
white wing
Lol sorry you're gonna have to back track a lil bit since I didn't say anything in the previous few minutes
shut vine
Yeah it's fine
white wing
I think talking about what causes these social issues only has a single representation.
White men did it
If you talk about any other cause you're racist
What's the context to this
shut vine
Just assume we make logical sense and you probably will agree mostly, and ask for any info to confirm that
sharp bronze
I just said that there are much easier, safer and cheaper ways not to have a kid than abortions,
white wing
oh I miss read you but still what't he context for bringing up that?
shut vine
Well these days if you say the lack of individual responsibility is probably the major cause of incarceration for example
I was more talking in a general sense
The loud people seem to blame white men for most of societies issues
sharp bronze
Kinda comes up considering most of society is made up by white men
shut vine
It's basically on point to what you were saying
white wing
Right but you realize you're including a lot of people who are competly incoccent of being racist in that category.
shut vine
About how people demonize the other side all the time
Most people are not like that, that's why I said the loudest
Radicals tend to be very loud
sharp bronze
Yeah but the loudest usually get into politics
Indeed
When an institution is corrupt Weak people get in power
Weak people will bend for the loudest people
If a mob of 100 goes and smashes the windows of the mayor office in a town of 100000, the mayor will listen to the loud mob
If he's weak that is
white wing
@sharp bronze wait but what justifies you grouping people with a diverse amount of thought into one group based on race and then demonizing them?
sharp bronze
Thats why you see mobs in America tearing down statues and burning the city. It's not because the statue oppress them or the trash cans are racist
shut vine
I don't think he is, think he's speaking against people doing that
sharp bronze
It's because they are a minority and they're tired of not being heard
white wing
The way you group people like that makes it seem like you belive all white people think the same, and all black people think the same.
shut vine
Just like me. Maybe I misunderstood.
shut vine
Yeah I understand that and agree with that
sharp bronze
I don't think we care what the random Joe wants in the streets
It's about what the Joe in office does
shut vine
But I am for people changing their opinion, and you have to debate what they are currently saying
pure jetty
It's because they are a minority and they're tired of not being heard
Easy way for them to continue not being heard is breaking laws
sharp bronze
And so that he listens
pure jetty
People who disagree with the people protesting will hard focus on the crime
sharp bronze
@pure jetty you'd think so, but weak men will always rule in favour of the most violent group
That's why they are doing what BLM asks
pure jetty
That's also a good way to not get people to listen to you
white wing
sharp bronze
Defunding or removing the police
pure jetty
That's a stupid idea
shut vine
I think people who want to peacefully protest will also be against the violence.
pure jetty
And towns that do that have largely failed in their attempt
shut vine
I think a majority are peacefully protesting, but they also need to actively denounce the violence in order to preserve their peaceful message.
sharp bronze
@pure jetty for sure
shut vine
Not because they are bound to do so.
sharp bronze
And weak people Should not be governing
shut vine
But because it's in their best interest.
valid steeple
should just recreate 9/11 tbh
sharp bronze
And I think those weak men got in power because of some innate characteristics, be it wealth or race however related
valid steeple
that'd probably get something done
white wing
@sharp bronze wait but what justifies you grouping people with a diverse amount of thought into one group based on race and then demonizing them?
shut vine
Yea I agree with you Seki, I generally don't agree with him.
white wing
unless you answered that but I missed it
shut vine
But I will not disagree just because I've disagreed with him in the past
white wing
Yeah and I have no problem with that it's just he hasn't answered that question yet.
shut vine
Ah ok
white wing
so far we've just moved on to something else after I asked that.
shut vine
Sorry a lot of people talking and not following everything
sharp bronze
@white wing I started here 753767659916492831
Uh
Well I started after you asked
The second comment after you did
shut vine
Yeah, recreating 9/11 would create a war against the perpetrators
white wing
Hmm I'll reread then
shut vine
I don't see how doing that would be good, it would get stuff done though I suppose
sharp bronze
Yeah I get kinda lost in whatever I'm saying
white wing
shut vine
Not sure what we're actually trying to get done with a war
white wing
ouf how do I word this properly
If that was your answer then you do realize that is not a good justification to make false stereotypes about a group of people?
white wing
basically white people, or in this case white men are inheriently bad.
white wing
Eitherway it doesn't matter
shut vine
Would those advantages be related to cultural values?
shut vine
I disagree with that
sharp bronze
And so it advances whites more
white wing
You do realize that the vast majority of millionares today are self made.
sharp bronze
As opposed to say many Asians, who thrive in white cultures because of their own goal oriented families or mentality
white wing
Heck some of the most powerfull people are self made like jeff bezos or elon musk.
shut vine
Gates
white wing
They don't inherit their wealth basically
I don't know much about gates hence why I didn't say his name.
sharp bronze
Musk, who receives so muxh Money from the state
white wing
He really doesn't though and he pays it all back.
shut vine
He was a university drop out, decided to start his own business
sharp bronze
Yeah paying back is fine if you even got the loan in the first place
white wing
Are you trying to imply that if they where black they wouldn't get the loan?
I should say non white.
sharp bronze
Didn't his father own a mine in South Africa
white wing
Yep but he didn't inherit the wealth
sharp bronze
@white wing not in the way musk did, but most everyone wouldn't have received the money 💰he does, white or not
shut vine
He didn't inherit his wealth, he made it himself, lesson his father taught him, and he taught to his kids
white wing
He came to cali with 2k in his bank and started paypal with it.
shut vine
Oh wrong person
white wing
okay then why say "Yeah paying back is fine if you even got the loan in the first place" it doesn't progress the discussion, unless I'm missing your point.
sharp bronze
Yes, loans granted have been shown to be often discriminatory against blacks
"oh but that's because they are more often poor"
sharp bronze
Nah go on
white wing
Right so do you know how loans work?
white wing
Alright well explain it to me then
sharp bronze
You go to bank, you tell em what you need, what you need it for, and what they can get If you don't pay back
Then they evaluate the risk and decide whether to lend you the money
shut vine
They ask for a whole lot of information to determine risk, like annual income of the household, job stability, etc.
sharp bronze
Assets family
white wing
^
shut vine
Expenses.
sharp bronze
Buncha other stuff too
shut vine
What do you mean by family?
sharp bronze
If your family can pay up if you can't
shut vine
That's not really true, they check if a guarantor can pay if you have one.
They can't take money from your family unless they are a guarantor.
sharp bronze
No sure
white wing
Loans are individualized to you not to anyone else unless you make it so in the loan.
shut vine
They're not part of the contract. So it would be mob shake down mentality if they even tried.
white wing
And there are laws in place that dictate that banks can't discriminate against race.
shut vine
Yeah redlining was outlawed.
sharp bronze
Yeeah
shut vine
Statistics show since it was it reduced the barrier.
There is still one, however that can reasonably be explained by financial factors
It's unethical to give someone a loan they cannot repay
and against the law
sharp bronze
Ok don't take this the wrong way, I have to go for a few minutes
I won't insult your intelligence by sending the Wikipedia page about it
white wing
I've seen articles like that and I've seen articles that also disprove them or prove them to hold no actual good points.
I'll read that one in a bit but I'm in 3 conversations atm
white wing
okay I'm sorry but that's a pretty shitty article imo since they don't link their sources.
But reading it it doesn't account for all the vaiables of education and socio economic status.
sharp bronze
What do you mean selling crack cocaine isn't a management approved investment strategy
Das a joke
white wing
And yeah everyone has to go through hoops to get their loan since you have to prove yourself to the bank.
white wing
You're going to have to provide a better article that accounts for all variables and provides links to the sources that it used.
shut vine
The best way to look at this, is there is a possibility this occurs, but you'd need a fairly convincing bit of evidence to do something.
At the end of the day you can't blame racism on all your problems, everyone has problems. Many of which are self inflicted.
The majority of the rest affect everyone of the same socioeconomic demographic.
There are definitely racists out there, but I think those people themselves are a minority these days.
Obviously an opinion.
white wing
Well the main problem is that articles like this don't account for all variables in this equation as I said before. Then that leads people to read only the title and the conclusion without reading and processing everything in the middle. They just take the fact without questioning them and connect them to a convienet conclusion.
shut vine
I agree.
Statistics don't mean much without a critical interpretation, especially one that explores multiple explanations.
Also realistically, focusing on areas of no issue or small issue is probably neglecting areas where there is a big issue.
white wing
Right so @sharp bronze get a better article
I just realized how lazy that article is
Select part of it and put it in a search engine. You will find articles that also don't have sources and are worded almost exactly.
faint radish
journalism has gotten pretty lazy...
lots of articles that have something to do with "Twitter erupts over..." or "...drew a response from users on Twitter"
literally anything will cause a response on twitter
and all the "journalists" do, is quote a few tweets responding to something
white wing
okay I'll humor you and read the damn article
Okay so what does this article prove other than that canada now has a loan program selectively targeting based on race?
sharp bronze
The USA should learn something from Canada doe
It doesn't prove anything, as I said I was sent that a minute ago and sent it here as it's tangentially related to the discussion
white wing
ahh that makes more sense. However there is nothing that the United States has to learn from this other than canada has racist policies.
@shut vine I'm so confused do you have another view point?
shut vine
I mean.. giving people a loan based on race is unethical from two perspectives.
It doesn't take into account their ability to repay it, and it's inherently racist.
white wing
Oh wait how did we even get into loans?
shut vine
If you're giving a person a loan they cannot repay, because they are black, you are basically enslaving them to paying off the loan for the rest of their lives, or making them default and taking everything from th em
them*
That is just furthering the financial divide
white wing
Oh right Ondiset was supposed to be trying to support the argument that because minorities aren't being heard, it justifies grouping people up based on race and forming stereotypes on that group.
Which can I just say that minorities are definitly being heard. Or am I just dumb?
shut vine
Just because legislation looks nice, doesn't mean it is nice.
sharp bronze
Just because ben & Jerry's make a BLM favoured ice cream doesn't mean you're being heard
If the protests in these months don't prove minorite weren't being listened to
Idk what does
shut vine
To be honest, not everyone can be heard by government
The ultimate minority is individuals
I don't think congress has the time to listen to everyone
I'm not saying it's right, but just saying they're "not heard" is not actually accomplishing anything
Highlighting the actual issues is important more than that
white wing
If they wheren't being heard then we wouldn't have made any progress these last 200 years. The civil war wouldn't have happened and slaves would still be a thing.
The statement that minorities are not being heard is one that I strongly disagree with.
shut vine
Well, I think their rights are being stood up for, it's one of the founding principles of America, I don't think it's perfect but it's definitely making progress probably faster than any nation ever did.
Intersectionality is a negative step, in my opinion.
shut vine
MSM seems to be pushing intersectionality a lot these days
white wing
I think now more than ever people take other character and skill into account rather than, race, gender, and other group traits.
shut vine
It's not a constructive thing for society.
I agree
I think the winds are changing currently though
white wing
I think some people are trying to change the good progress that we've made with good intentions. But there is a proverb that says the path to hell is paved with good inentions.
shut vine
The media seems to focus on people of today paying reparations for the sins of the past for example
I hope that's all it is
Sometimes I wonder if it's an intentional thing
white wing
I doubt it's intentional
shut vine
It reminds me of the stories the Nazi party or USSR spun
shut vine
Yeah, I guess that's possible
I'd say it's about the same, the level of atrocity is worse in the USSR in my opinion
Think it was 20 million executed by the USSR dictatorship?
white wing
I mean it is but that doesn't change the point that the USSR was paved with good inentions.
shut vine
What I mean is, I think the story at least of what Hitler was peddling looked like what he was doing was for the nation.
Could be good intentions? Yes. Was it? Doubtful in both cases to me.
white wing
Heck it's funny the USSR wanted equality of outcome and Nazi germany didn't. But nazi Germany did a much more direct approach in evening out outcome by killing jews.
valid steeple
I kinda really doubt either were made with entirely good intentions
shut vine
Yeah, that's my point.
I don't know, it's hard to tell what a persons intentions are.
That's incredibly subjective.
valid steeple
you can kinda look at what they ultimately did
white wing
Yeah well with an organization that big it would be defacto to say not entirely.
valid steeple
in which both were genocidal
shut vine
Correct.
They both did the rich people are oppressing the people story.
Then proceeded to kill those rich people.
shut vine
They didn't directly in the USSR case, it started off as them inciting the people to do it.
valid steeple
kulaks werent exactly rich
white wing
So nothing changed but the smaller section of rich people became more powerfull and in turn richer.