Also America is fat, lazy, greedy, and warmongering /s
#politics
elder portal
clever badge
not disputing this lol
weary lake
I read "warm-ongering" and I was so confused
opal moat
A lot of cultures eat bats or other similar animals but only the chinese and south asian culture gets hate for it^^
and to be fair, eating a rabbit or a turkey or like a wild deer isn't that much better tbh? whats the difference, other than the animal and that western culture sees it as "normal"? That's equally disturbing for other cultures
wise pollen
elder portal
I think my /s was lost
But it's there
Generalizing millions of people in a few stereotypes
lethal rose
This is how i stereotype fat american karens https://youtu.be/hxGEJqLEk2c
Lol
These fun
I love watching dumb people without proper reasons
I think they are ruining my image of a lot of shit tho
pure jetty
I don't think you should be making fun of people who are overweight but it shouldn't be something celebrated like Piers said
restive seal
64.6 BMI holy shit.
weary lake
That's... that's quite a lot.
lethal rose
I mean if it’s an actual disease causing it, ok.
If it’s because they are brainless karens who are afraid of not having their xxxxl mac meal for dinner then fuck off
restive seal
Also stop making me watch videos that make me think "Piers Morgan isn't entirely wrong here"
lethal rose
xDå
weary lake
I mean, if they want to be fat, good for them.
lethal rose
Don’t influence others trying to sell fat as good tho
weary lake
Well, if we look from a health perspective, then neither side is good. Being overwight isn't good for your body, but being underweight isn't either. With that reasoning you shouldn't influence others into becoming overweight, but not the other way around either.
If you look from it with a culture perspective, then it's just other dumb norms people socially expect you to follow. Imo if you want to be overweight/underweight then you do you, just be aware of the potential health issues.
final latch
I feel like a lot of this channel is just discussing certain keywords that don't even matter
who really cares about these "karens"
the world has bigger issues to deal with lol
pure jetty
politics is half semantics
final latch
like why is there even a politics channel in here lol
pure jetty
so people can mute it
plucky geyser
who really cares about these "karens"
Idk id say it’s an umbrella term describing a pretty damaging group in America
Can’t really say they don’t have an impact either
lethal rose
Cause karens is all i see from my secluded heaven here
pure jetty
Lol wtf
Also speaking of wtf, wtf is that meme(?) format
Looks like a biden campaign ad
near glen
Hot take, pointing a boom mic at asylum seekers in a boat in the middle of the sea makes you look like an utter fool
Instead they should be pointing their mic at the politicians who cause this situation by blocking proper migration
weary lake
I mean, covering news about asylum seekers isn't bad in itself, but that woman indeed acts like a complete idiot. Also ^
near glen
"In a dark season of pestilence, COVID has reduced to tatters the illusion of American exceptionalism. At the height of the crisis, with more than 2,000 dying each day, Americans found themselves members of a failed state, ruled by a dysfunctional and incompetent government largely responsible for death rates that added a tragic coda to America’s claim to supremacy in the world."
"For more than two centuries, reported the Irish Times, “the United States has stirred a very wide range of feelings in the rest of the world: love and hatred, fear and hope, envy and contempt, awe and anger. But there is one emotion that has never been directed towards the U.S. until now: pity.”"
Man, this article says exactly what I feal
pure jetty
seems kinda like they're just being sensational to get clicks
our covid19 response was less than ideal sure
pure jetty
the fact that you'd feel pity tho is eh
bleak echo
i mean personally mostly i'm just afraid for the US
pure jetty
it's one of the downfalls of a split power system that we have
hard for the federal government to override the state governments
and impossible to enforce policies that are for the greater good due to civil liberties
near glen
I life in a Federalism too
bleak echo
i mean it seems like a lot of what's happening in the US is due to soft pressure from the federal government
near glen
It's also an issue here, every state is doing whatever
But we have leadership to hold the states together and find common ground
bleak echo
they can't tell states what to do but they can withhold highway/education/etc funding
pure jetty
yeah the federal gov sending mixed signals is bad
trump wants the country to look like normal
so he pushes for schools to reopen
like a dumbass
i think he's pushing for lockdown again
but lord knows he already changed his mind
near glen
The more I read if that article the more I like it
Got a meeting now, gonna finish it later
near glen
"If and when the Chinese are ascendant, with their concentration camps for the Uighurs, the ruthless reach of their military, their 200 million surveillance cameras watching every move and gesture of their people, we will surely long for the best years of the American century. For the moment, we have only the kleptocracy of Donald Trump. Between praising the Chinese for their treatment of the Uighurs, describing their internment and torture as “exactly the right thing to do,” and his dispensing of medical advice concerning the therapeutic use of chemical disinfectants, Trump blithely remarked, “One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.” He had in mind, of course, the coronavirus, but, as others have said, he might just as well have been referring to the American dream."
Nice finish
Def worth the read
elder portal
You don't need to pity the U.S.
It's still a powerhouse of productivity, our main export
Our economy is still incredibly strong despite being crippled by covid
We have our issues
mystic ermine
and then New York
elder portal
But no need to pity the working class here
"People be dumb" is how I describe covid
And sometimes it do be like that
opal moat
idk I'm still sad for all the people suffering
pure jetty
^
bashing the US is popular right now
articles get hits
well, i guess it's always popular
since 2016 
opal moat
I mean, some of the bashing against the politics is not wrong, and not like the USA isn't doing the same always with china and the middle east
elder portal
Oh, yeah, we have our problems
elder portal
But we're about as politically well off as the U.K. right now
pure jetty
looks at UK parliament
opal moat
But we're about as politically well off as the U.K. right now
that doesn't sound as good as you might hink it does xD
pure jetty
more well off
opal moat
depends on who you pity
elder portal
Speaking of first world problems, my caramel in my caramel macchiato from Starbucks this morning sank to the bottom and I didn't realize
I just drank straight caramel sauce
Oh god it's so sweet
I can't
opal moat
the Sprite i got at McD was just bad tasting water yesterday, they forgot the sirup
elder portal
Lol
sand shale
RIP
white wing
Holy shit you guys are first world af
Isn't eating out expensive? Just make your coffe or tea at home it doesn't take too much time.
opal moat
To be honest it's not since I got it for free :D but yeah
elder portal
I usually make my own with my Nespresso machine in the morning but ran short on time
white wing
Mkay just boggles my mind when people do that on the regular. Only reason I would do it is to support a small bussiness.
white wing
Im too poor for that lmao
elder portal
If you're college educated you probably have a good enough job to afford Starbucks when you're short on time
Thankfully a large portion of adults in the U.S. have at least an associate's
Not sure it it's a majority yet
clever badge
thankfully all those degrees are worth something and they all have jobs
elder portal
Mhm
white wing
Well I live in the NYC so everything is expensive
mystic ermine
Isn't NYC ending anyways?
elder portal
Lol
elder portal
It'll just become new new york
white wing
people are really overstating the situation in NYC.
elder portal
Depends on where you live, but people generalize
white wing
I've been in every part in new york but staten island
elder portal
Instead of saying "parts of NY are on fire" they say "NY is on fire"
white wing
It's not as bad as people say it is and as far as I can remember there is always a part of new york city that's on fire.
elder portal
It's the everburning flame
white wing
The city that never sleeps
mystic ermine
But it sure takes a lotta weed naps
elder portal
Too busy with the water buckets to sleep
white wing
well this is a /r/woooosh cuz I didn't get the reference.
mystic ermine
Movie, half baked
white wing
Ah never watched it
elder portal
Pineapple express is also fun
white wing
oh lol that was made before I was born lmao
mystic ermine
You just can't beat the classics
white wing
I'll put it on my movie list that I'll watch with a few friends.
faint radish
looks like the Bidens VP is Kamala Harris.
do progressives have an issue w/her? I thought there was something about her being a prosecutor of drug crimes that made her unappealing.
restive seal
pure jetty
Kamala Harris is a dumbass and bs lawyer
restive seal
Charming, JRoy.
pure jetty
she's made horrible decisions, withheld dna evidence as a DA, and has horrible constitutional opinions
Josh Dubin works with the innocence project
faint radish
oh fun fact about the innocence project, one of the founders, barry scheck was part of OJ's dream team
(btw, that has nothing to do with the innocence project, its just an interesting factoid)
faint radish
yeah, I pretty much think the pick is meaningless
unless, ya know, biden doesn't serve 4 years
pure jetty
he's only doing this because its a black women
faint radish
which, lets be honest, is a real possibility
balmy quartz
elder portal
Is it just me or has there been some bad shit dug up about every single presidential candidate ever at least since I was a kid?
Honestly I just go with the person I have the fewest issues with
elder portal
Yeah, fuck it, I don't expect perfect people anyway
shy gulch
Has Obama had some big scandal?
elder portal
Also for the love of Christ don't let your vote get split. If you want to vote for a party and choose someone who is unlikely to win then you've just given the opposing party a free vote
Obama is no exception. He's had his fair share of stuff dug up during campaigns
elder portal
It's always the same stuff. "They voted for abortions" or "they backed or were backed by big oil" and similar stuff
Sometimes it's more
But it's always meh
shy gulch
I remember some segment on Fox News about how he took a day off too spend a night with his wife.
They made it out to be some huge scandal
I was dying
shy gulch
yeah
I seriously cant recall one major scandal Obama was involved with
Im trying to remember
restive seal
Well, there was benghazi, bengazi, bengahzi, benjamin ghazi, been gazin', benghazi, and benghazi. Oh and those times he wore a tan suit and asked for tastier mustard.
elder portal
As for hiding evidence from the DA, show me a politician that hasn't done that and I'll show you a liar
shy gulch
We were a very stable country with Obama.
elder portal
I'm not saying it's good, but not voting for someone based on that is BS
topaz gorge
I mean what actually passed during Obama's admin is pretty mediocre/weak. He didn't deliver on getting out of Afghanistan/Iraq, the unconditional bailouts for financial institutions were a disgrace, he made 0 progress on climate change, the version of healthcare he passed was so watered down it barely helped put a dent in the problem.
elder portal
Actually in some cases they might need to, such as in a matter of national security. Not saying that's what it was, but it's likely someone somewhere had to
drifting arch
Unrelated, but just saw this and although satire it's more relevant today than not https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84phU8of02U
topaz gorge
He was a manager, not a reformer
elder portal
I'm okay with not having reformers
We don't need reform
Well, we do, but not like this
topaz gorge
I think that's a really difficult position to defend when you look at the state of the world, and the coming climate apocalypse.
elder portal
In some areas we do
We have a reformer in office now
I'm burnt out on reformers for the time being
shy gulch
He couldnt make reform if he wanted. House and Congress were red during Obamas second term and they would not pass shit. He could have found and tried to distribute the cure for cancer but would have been shut down.
lethal rose
?role add @lethal rose Moderator
elder portal
The government moves slow intentionally
topaz gorge
He had the entire first term and squandered it.
lethal rose
?role all moderator
shy gulch
A lot of the reform we currently need is due to the currents administrations reaction to the nations issues.
lethal rose
Hehe
elder portal
Sorry
lethal rose
Nothing
shy gulch
During gay right protests while we had Obama he stood and talked with the people holding these protests. Trump completely ignored BLM while sitting in the basement of the white house tweeting.
elder portal
Dyno and other mod bots are configured properly here. Dyno isn't even here iirc
elder portal
It's for IRC
random furnace
wot
elder portal
Well then it's configured properly. Stop trying to poke it
lethal rose
Smh
elder portal
Adding everyone as a moderator is not how you pentest
lethal rose
Well
elder portal
If you find a security issue your first course of action should not be "let everyone take control!"
lethal rose
At first i only tried to add myself
Then i decided to test the all command
It no work
elder portal
Clearly
lethal rose
I got no mod 🙁
elder portal
Go do productive things
lethal rose
I will
drifting arch
I just saw someone's replacement for "America"
AmeriKKKa.
Accurate.
drifting arch
Yes really
elder portal
I don't think there's many current KKK members in the U.S.
drifting arch
It's not saying AmeriKKKa as in the KKK is leading the country. It's jabbing at the white nationalist agenda lol.
elder portal
That's conflating the two
drifting arch
It's not that serious
elder portal
It's kinda putting a whole lot of people into a tiny little box
drifting arch
Black Lives Matter
elder portal
Indeed they do
restive seal
It's kinda putting a whole lot of people into a tiny little box
Is there a problem with putting all the white nationalists into a box and then leaving that box on the side of the road?
elder portal
Heh
drifting arch
The box ain't that tiny. Like I said, it's not KKK to say that the KKK is running the country. It's KKK 1) because it mimics the c that it replaces and 2) because the KKK is a white nationalist hate group. It's calling out the white nationalist agenda like I just said and you really cannot claim that Murica doesn't have that problem. Small box or not, the population should own it and then fix it so that it no longer has any sense of accuracy at all. Sorry it bothers you that people think of the USA like this, but people think of the USA like this.
elder portal
Putting more than white nationalists in that box with "AmeriKKKa" though
We have our problems
drifting arch
Yeah, this is a term coming from other countries. Not internally. They called us that. We can't just be like "lol, but like u know. it's not everybody. dont call us that, aint accurate"
That's our image, sir
That's our legacy
elder portal
It's a dramatic oversimplification for comedy value. Sure, fine, but that doesn't a valid point make
elder portal
It's also not very funny, yeah
topaz gorge
We also have police departments collaborating with literal Neo Nazis to beatand maim BLM protesters. It's not an exaggeration to say we have a white nationalist criminal justice system.
drifting arch
Once again: KKK in this context, not Ku Klux Klan but a symbol for White Nationalism.
AmeriKKKa.
shy gulch
Throw a good sterotypical American joke then fine. Not everything is a political agenda, AmeriKKKa is simply not funny.
drifting arch
Lol
"Uwu my feelings are hurt because the world sees America as a racist shithole"
Isn't even me saying that, though. I just copied it from some other guy.
Sorry y'all think it's so inaccurate tho.
It's not.
elder portal
I'm not offended, but "AmeriKKKa" solves no problems, barely raises any awareness or issues, and isn't funny. It's just not good at anything
It's clever, I guess
That's about it
drifting arch
Wasn't the point of the sentence, he just changed "America" to "Amerikkka".
Here's his whole post for ya:
I can see it is parody of the unspoken reality in racist Amerikkka, whenever there is an incident involving black people mainstream culture always amplify the negativity to the extreme. Where it is a seriuos crime committed by rich white people it is always minimize if at all reported.
I thought it worked well.
elder portal
Yeah, it's a clever punchline
shut vine
It's getting very that way. With companies/universities implementing quotas.. soft bigotry of low expectations.
white wing
We also have police departments collaborating with literal Neo Nazis to beatand maim BLM protesters. It's not an exaggeration to say we have a white nationalist criminal justice system.
huh did I miss something?
pure jetty
yeah that's uh...pushing it
topaz gorge
It’s really not, look into what’s happening in Portland
shy gulch
We dont have a white nationalist justice system
Thats literally insane
That kind of shit pisses me off
topaz gorge
Cool 👍🏻
shy gulch
Labeling people who are not racist RACIST are not solving anything
topaz gorge
shy gulch
Im 100% sure there are members of law enforcement who are racist/Prejudice/White nationalists
Does not make the Justice System or all a part of it a single one of those things
white wing
Wait did anyone read that document that was linked?
The one linked by josh?
If you haven't there is basically no information in the linked document
white wing
Well I'm going to assume it's credible for now. But all it outlines is concerns of possible white supremacist infiltration.
shy gulch
Right.
white wing
This is the same as saying that the US goverment knew there where aliens because of the recent leaked report about UFOs. UFO != Aliens
shy gulch
There are white supremacists in Police departments 100%. THis does not make the whole system and/or the people under it a white supremacist.
white wing
Yeah I saw the redactions and most of the redactions don't look like they contain any relevant information to conclude that the whole justice system is run by white supremacists.
shy gulch
You would be delusional to say no one in the Police System has ever been a racist.
Just as delusional to say the whole system is and full of racists
topaz gorge
Neither I nor anyone else in it said that. But not every member of an institution needs to be in Klan robes for them to be able to terrorize and kill minorities with impunity
white wing
If I where to compare the linked document it would be just the hypothesis part of an experiment.
white wing
Then show us one example of a whole entire police department in modern history being the last 4 years that "terrorize and kill minorities with impunity"
afaik I think last year the amount of unarmed black people killed was in the single digits or in the teens.
By police mind you.
shy gulch
Im all for BLM but the shit people come up with really dumbs down the cause
white wing
I'm for the cause not the BLM group.
shy gulch
I dont believe a single government branch is systematically racist. There are definitely people within these branches who are racist or/and prejudice
I'm for the cause not the BLM group.
@white wing See the problem with this is there is not one BLM group
topaz gorge
If the people within the government branches are racist, and are allowed to set policy and determine enforcement that can lead to systemic racism
shy gulch
a group claimed.
Most of these groups that have claimed to lead the protests are pretty wild
meager ice
shy gulch
the shit they come up with is insane
topaz gorge
The BLM protesters are an enormous group compared to the original black lives matter organization
It doesn’t make sense to get fixated on that small group instead of the mass movement
shy gulch
BLM is not one group, well there is obviously a group called BLM but still. I support BLM but I do not support the agenda of a lot of these groups.
topaz gorge
That’s reasonable
white wing
That's basically what I said then 😐
shy gulch
BLM is a Soclial Movement with multiple groups claiming its leading.
This does confuse many people
topaz gorge
Considering how much ideological diversity there is within the movement it would be impossible to align with everyone
white wing
okay hold on what are these separate groups claiming to be the leaders of the BLM movement?
Do you actually know them or where you told about them in passing?
shy gulch
this causes problems because then people (majority conservative) see what some claim to be a part of the "BLM group" doing to local stores and they say BLM is a terrorist group whilst others (majority Liberal) see this as other people saying black lives dont matter :I
okay hold on what are these separate groups claiming to be the leaders of the BLM movement?
Do you actually know them or where you told about them in passing?
@white wing Not exactly leaders no.
Since BLM has died down some of these groups have started organizing these protests.
At the start it was people simply coming out to show support for black lives and reform to keep these innocent people from being killed so often.
It has progressively become more shit
I support the cause that "Black Lives Matter." vVery simple.
I dont support looting
topaz gorge
It becoming more shit has a lot to do with cowboy idiot cops brutalizing people.
white wing
It still is people coming out and supporting black lives though. There are still peaceful protests.
shy gulch
Or some of these reforms which result in others having less rights
It becoming more shit has a lot to do with cowboy idiot cops brutalizing people.
@topaz gorge No.
white wing
yeah what?
topaz gorge
Shooting state senators with rubber bullets, teargassing children, arresting journalists
shy gulch
It has become more shit because people think looting stores will change shit.
They also like free stuff.
topaz gorge
The level of police brutality at these protests is insane
shy gulch
Not everything is a result of administrative corruption.
white wing
In almost all cases where police force was used it was because a protest became classified as a riot.
shy gulch
Retards started looting local stores.
white wing
People also get warned multiple times to move before force is used.
shy gulch
I also disagree with this
topaz gorge
A protest being designated a riot is a subjective judgement call made by law enforcement
shy gulch
A majority of the police resistance was aimed twards peaceful protestors.
They were told to leave
white wing
It's not subjective though. You cause any property damage or start attacking people your protest will become a riot.
shy gulch
but were also exercising there rights peacefully
white wing
Yeah and most of those where proven false with more context.
topaz gorge
And plenty of people were not given warning or a way out. Innocent people just walking by have been dragged into squad cars, beaten, maced etc
I sincerely doubt you have any idea what percentage were proven false, especially considering the complete lack of follow through and transparency
shy gulch
What I find ironic is how the National Guard and Whole Regions Police departments would line up to push back and dismiss peaceful protesting whilst local stores were protected by absolutely no one and were looted to shit.
i need to be president my pp is 0.1 inch
white wing
Heck I've even seen people record cops getting aggressive and claim police brutality even after people start throwing stuff at cops setting up a blockade.
shy gulch
i will make country better by giving away free popsicles
make me president
@white wing r u trump
Heck I've even seen people record cops getting aggressive and claim police brutality even after people start throwing stuff at cops setting up a blockade.
@white wing Im not denying this happens
What I find ironic is how the National Guard and Whole Regions Police departments would line up to push back and dismiss peaceful protesting whilst local stores were protected by absolutely no one and were looted to shit.
🙂
topaz gorge
That’s the point though, just because someone throws something at you does not mean you can blow their eyeball apart with a rubber bullet
topaz gorge
Which has happened multiple times already
shy gulch
NO ONE SHOULD BE THROWING ANYTHING
white wing
^
shy gulch
AND NO ONE SHOULD BE SHOOTING ANYTHING
Its from both sides.
Everyone is so one-sided these days
Look at it from both perspectives
can i be president pls
white wing
Police shouldn't be attacking peaceful protesters and protesters shouldn't be attacking police.
topaz gorge
I’m not being one sided, but we should expect better behavior from cops than we do from random people in the street
white wing
But I'm not going to get angry at the police without proper context to the situation.
topaz gorge
That is not nearly as wise and galaxy brained as you seem to think it is
shut vine
Protesters who want to do so peacefully also should not hinder police from arresting violent ones.
shy gulch
If police become brutal after someone is attacking them then why shame the officer?
shut vine
Surrounding them and protecting them, they become complicit in a criminal act.
topaz gorge
Because it’s against the law to brutalize suspects. Let alone random people
white wing
oh yeah and james does put up a good point
shy gulch
This is the issue. Focus on the actual problem of police using unlawful force on innocent people.
white wing
There are a few videos of protesters protecting rioters.
shy gulch
This is also true
shut vine
The answer to police brutality is more funding for training and appropriate equipment.
As well as reducing the power of all workers unions as a whole.
topaz gorge
Lmao
shy gulch
thats the issue of the social ideology. Most people who stand for the cause could be and usually are peaceful but they justify rioting and looting in some way.
white wing
Anyways I rather not generalize and if I am going to get angry about something I'm not going to blame type of people for a event but the people who actually have something to do with the event.
shut vine
There's no excuse for rioting and looting, and none for police brutality.
However if you don't adequately equip or train officers to handle situations that arise mistakes will happen.
white wing
Look if you riot and loot for a cause you're going to be diminishing your cause.
shut vine
There are also always going to be those who just don't give a shit and will do what they want.
faint radish
the whole "damaging property isn't violence" thing is really scary.
white wing
The reason why MLK death was so impactful was because he was peaceful.
shy gulch
Anyways I rather not generalize and if I am going to get angry about something I'm not going to blame type of people for a event but the people who actually have something to do with the event.
@white wing Exactly. This is how both issues should be dealt with. The racist, violent, and prejudice police are always focused on and this has had people claim the whole Policing system as racist. Some cunts during BLM protests have looted and rioted causing some to claim the whole movement of BLM is a terrorist act.
shut vine
Well, current polling would suggest people are starting to feel that way lately Pencil.
As in, people as a whole in America.
white wing
I don't trust polling it's so unreliable
shut vine
It started this year with fairly positive outlook from most American's, but that's changing fast.
Yeah I agree. That's why I said suggest.
faint radish
saw this the other day https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx 81% of black people want police to stay the same or increase their presence
I mean... that really should just end the whole defund the police thing right?
shut vine
Yeah, I saw that too Machine.
shy gulch
Americas system is solid and is setup in such a way to be improved but we are just filled with such a Stupid and split population.
white wing
But yeah the whole group mentality has to stop. I mean someone earlier was trying to make my points moot by trying to label me as a trump supporter or something like that. Like what?
shut vine
Well.. let me ask you this.. if you reduce funds to police where do they take the money away? It wont be guns, it might be tasers, bodycams, etc? Or maybe numbers?
That's only going to make the problem worse.
white wing
I think black business owners might want more police at this point.
shut vine
If they have no option but to use lethal force in fear of their lives, they will more readily use it.
white wing
Well they also need more mandatory training.
shy gulch
But yeah the whole group mentality has to stop. I mean someone earlier was trying to make my points moot by trying to label me as a trump supporter or something like that. Like what?
@white wing Same brother. I have a opinion to a certain topic that labels me as a Trump supporter or a right wing conservative when this is not farther from the truth.
shut vine
I agree 100%
white wing
The good cops are the one who take money out of their own pockets to do training on their own time.
shut vine
Police who want more training have to fork out their own money in most instances to get it too.
Which is just stupid.
They should regularly be training.
shy gulch
Defunding is stupid
faint radish
anyone see this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev373c7wSRg
white wing
@faint radish yes totally
shy gulch
Just demilitarize
faint radish
thought it was pretty hilarious
white wing
what does demilitarize mean though?
shut vine
Yeah I think some of those military handouts are a bit stupid.
Well some police forces have purchased excess military equipment.
For a greatly reduced cost.
I think that should be looked at from an economics viewpoint.
white wing
Huh I mean in terms of equipment miltiary gear means nothing since a lot of the civilian stuff is more up to date and better.
topaz gorge
They are given like tanks, surveillance drones, grenade launchers etc
white wing
The only thing the military has that's better is vehicles and full auto weapons.
shut vine
If they're spending too much on these things that they don't probably need, and that money can go to more effective things, that has to change.
topaz gorge
The point is they don’t need them at all. And if you give that stuff out it will be used
white wing
well you need the grenade launchers to launch smoke tubes.
shy gulch
1950s - 1960s A police reform came along that militarized the police and gave them hand outs of left over equipment/weapons from war.
shut vine
They're not given, they have to pay for the equipment.
shy gulch
Not what I was taught
shy gulch
I am as well lol
You have a source?
I mean Im not calling you a lier id just like to be sure
shut vine
No I don't, and if I Google it, it'll be tainted since it's what I'm looking for.
Let me see if I can figure out a decent search that isn't biased.
shy gulch
They were given the weapons and equipment through Defense Department program called 1033
topaz gorge
The 1033 program that has given billions of dollars in extremely discounted military equipment started in the 1990s
topaz gorge
But I agree that having this quantity of excess military equipment is another problem in if itself, our defense spending is ludicrous
white wing
oh if you really want to talk about police reform you guys should look into civil asset forfeiture, it really fucks up the incentives police have.
shy gulch
1960s gave them the ability to obtain this shit and the Defense Department program called 1033 started funding and giving this shit in 1990s
topaz gorge
Civil asset forfeiture is totally fucked. Just like legalized piracy
shut vine
Seki, that law is fundamentally fucked.
white wing
That's a really good article going on about it
shut vine
They literally put the thing they seized on trial.
white wing
Yeah it fucks with all the insentives
topaz gorge
And there’s no accountability. It’s ridiculous
white wing
And presumes guilty until proven innocent
elder portal
Hey now, I like our defense spending. Just for very different and completely selfish reasons
topaz gorge
Do you work for Northrop Grumman or something
white wing
lol our defense spending is nothing compared to our social spending
shut vine
Well there is accountability, but not enough.
shy gulch
Pretty sure more money goes to defense
elder portal
It's a lot of money
white wing
topaz gorge
It’s 3.1 percent. But I don’t accept the premise that we shouldn’t spend way more on social programs
white wing
defense does get a lot of money but compare that to our social programs and there is a big gap
white wing
No we shouldn't spend more we should figure out why they're so damn high
shy gulch
hoqw tf is 17% going to medicare
topaz gorge
Insurance company profiteering
white wing
You guys want my source?
elder portal
Something something education
shut vine
Because the regulations give insurance companies no incentive to compete.
white wing
I also think this is only on the federal level so states themselfs could be spending even more.
shy gulch
$570 Billion is still 10000x more then should be given to defense
white wing
it's not a billion
topaz gorge
So much of defense spending is just grift
white wing
it's 1 trillion
shy gulch
We dont need 10 new warships every year when we already have 100 more then the country behind us
faint radish
lol, gov should def not increase spending... in education for example, more money is spent per pupil in public schools than private schools, but private schools offer a better education...
elder portal
A lot of it goes to cyber security, not traditional warfare
topaz gorge
Private schools don’t have to teach the poor or disabled
white wing
The problem right now is that the US is the police of the world and no other NATO country want to spend more on military to help the US out.
shut vine
I mean, military spending is a tough one. You're dealing with things on a global scale due to where America has positioned itself power-wise.
elder portal
Trying to keep our power grid, etc out of the hands of Russia
shut vine
China and Russia are real threats to freedom in my opinion.
elder portal
That costs
white wing
Yeah basically add my point to james point
pure jetty
Our military budget is kinda crazy, but we're the country that deals with everyone else's shit on top of our own
so it makes sense
white wing
America needs it's allies to spend more on military so we can cut back on ours.
topaz gorge
I sincerely doubt that us cyber security funding comes anywhere close to weapons systems
shut vine
I can't really say I'm anywhere knowledgeable enough to even guess how much money the US military needs.
pure jetty
but it probably is a little inflated
faint radish
cyber stuff IS a weapons system
shy gulch
We shouldnt deal with other peoples shit especially in the middle east lmao
white wing
The top air force in the world is the USAF the second best airforce in the world is the USNAVY.
Just to give perspective.
elder portal
Anti-weapons systems and cyber security is where the work is right now
pure jetty
the US is pretty much forced into everyones foreign policy
shut vine
JRoy I'd agree, I think a lot of money is wasted by the military
faint radish
I find it funny that like 6 years ago, dems were ALL for getting out of the middle east, but when trump wants to leave, they are like, its a bad idea
shy gulch
the US is pretty much forced into everyones foreign policy
@pure jetty No.
shut vine
The excess equipment is just a nice example.
shy gulch
We arent forced
white wing
The US is NATOs big pit bull.
shy gulch
we put ourselves in these situations
pure jetty
some yes
topaz gorge
What dems are saying we shouldn’t get out of the Middle East?
pure jetty
but the US literally the super power for a reason
shy gulch
We should get out
white wing
I mean having a big military put the US in a very good position for making global policies.
shy gulch
We should not be in the Middle East at all
never should have
They dont want us there and most people dont want to be there
shut vine
You know, that's interestingly one of the things a certain President was claiming they want.
white wing
we should have been but to a way smaller extent. Should have just been special forces that where sent out to get osama bin laden.
shut vine
Make the other NATO countries pay their way for their own defence force.
white wing
I think that's what every president wanted tbh
shy gulch
NATO only exists so Europe does not get ass fucked by Russia. That was og goal.
white wing
I mean it just makes sense
topaz gorge
If we weren’t there in the first place 9/11 would never have happened. Your thinking is predicated on a bad premise
white wing
Oh yeah you're right
topaz gorge
History exists before 2000
white wing
I forgot about the stuff before 2001
pure jetty
The reason terrorists hate us so much is because we keep calling ourselves number 1
faint radish
well that and we have freedom of thought
opal moat
That's the reason everyone hates u
shut vine
That's one possible explination
pure jetty
that's why Canada never gets a plane driven into it
elder portal
Doesn't matter much why
pure jetty
nobody is going after number 2
shy gulch
Terrorist dont like us because we are shaming and killing them.
topaz gorge
It absolutely matters why.
faint radish
well that is what happens when you are number 1, everyone attacks the top
white wing
We also don't invest in a lot of money to improve the infrastructure in the countries that we invade. We just trash it instead.
pure jetty
arguing about the past doesn't solve problems and isn't useful discourse
topaz gorge
And hating freedom is not a reason. It’s a reaction to specific bad choices we made.
shut vine
I think when a country is as successful as USA there are going to be people who wish to tear that down.
white wing
I mean your not wrong but what's the point of saying that?
elder portal
If someone doesn't like someone else calling themselves first in a sector enough to fly a plane into buildings and kill thousands then I don't see how that's the braggart's fault
white wing
not sarcastic btw actually curious and missing the point.
shut vine
I actually think hating freedom is a very valid reason.
elder portal
Seems like some personal issues
shy gulch
Tbh most situations we have been attacked has been by our own interference. Competition has been Arms and Economic race.
opal moat
well that is what happens when you are number 1, everyone attacks the top
You can be number 1 and be like "hey I am at the top let me help y'all get on my level" or you could be like "suck it I'm number 1"
shut vine
You mean me Seki?
elder portal
Like, yeah, it's obviously not a great look, but you want to kill people over it?
topaz gorge
It’s not personal issues. Like you can literally read the statements put out by bin laden about what the justification was
white wing
What's the point of mentioning that everyone want's to attack the #1 spot in this context?
elder portal
Sounds a lot like personal issues, yes
pure jetty
bin laden is creditable /s
shy gulch
People want to attack who claim they are #1. If we shut up more we would be in better situations.
topaz gorge
It’s mostly related to our support of Israeli occupation of Palestine, and US military occupation in Muslim countries
white wing
Oh and yeah Japan is a great example of the US helping foreign country that used to be it's enemy rise to the top.
shut vine
My point was due to the success, the US economic system flourishing. That could be a motivation for people to try and tear the system down.
elder portal
Clearly to some people it's worth killing over, but I fail to see how that's the U.S.'s fault there
shy gulch
We should stop flexing our warships and fix the Education System.
pure jetty
if only it was that easy
shut vine
Yes, Bin Laden is a trustworthy fellow.
pure jetty
shy gulch
It is that easy
shut vine
I can vouch for him.
topaz gorge
So I should believe you? Because you had an idea and typed it?
white wing
I don't think money is a problem with our education system though.
topaz gorge
You have zero evidence
shy gulch
Lets stop building 10 warships a year even tho we have 100 more then the nation behind us
shut vine
That argument can easily be applied to you too Josh.
shy gulch
You know how much money a warship is? My school is falling aprt.
shut vine
It goes nowhere fast.
pure jetty
Fixing education is not just throwing more money at it
elder portal
Now helping an enemy and occupying territory I can actually understand
topaz gorge
Why because I brought up the actual evidence? Instead of conjecture?
shy gulch
1/1000 of warship money would fix my school and actually put some toilet paper in our bathrooms
faint radish
not really into decreasing military spending rn, not with China doing its thing...
has never been a time in history where the top power, and the rising power did not go to war...
shy gulch
Fixing education is not just throwing more money at it
@pure jetty Where I live it is.
topaz gorge
People want to ignore the facts so they can inject ideology instead
pure jetty
large parts of education in the US isn't federated
white wing
Yes I know how much money a war ship is though I also went through the NYC education system which is trash but also gets a shit ton of funding.
pure jetty
^^
elder portal
It's pretty rare that throwing money at a problem solves it. At least from the lower-levels
pure jetty
the problem isn't just money, it's what is being taught
shy gulch
Right in that situation its more reform then finding
People seem to forget this country is Very big and diverse
also self governed
white wing
I personally think it's the standardized tests.
elder portal
At some point the money has to actually do something useful
opal moat
large parts of education in the US isn't federated
Same in Germany, but it still works a lot better 🤷 that's definitely not the reason why it is so shitty
white wing
They werent that bad when I was in school but the new testing system that NYC is adopting makes no sense.
shy gulch
Standardized testing is shit.
topaz gorge
It’s also that schools are expected to be frontline responses to everything that can go wrong with children. They are getting food, healthcare, social services etc all from schools
shut vine
The biggest effective change they could make to schools, is outlaw the postcode bs.
faint radish
federal gov has very little power over states
as it should be 💯
shut vine
Let people pick what ever school they want.
topaz gorge
Because we don’t invest in the infrastructure to provide that any other way
opal moat
Same here when it comes to education jroy
faint radish
lol yeah, school choice would be great
pure jetty
yeah split of power is good
topaz gorge
School funding should be decoupled from property values
shut vine
Then schools have to actually compete for students.
opal moat
The states do everything
shy gulch
federal gov has very little power over states compared to Germany
@pure jetty When it comes to distributing state funds it does.
topaz gorge
You mean federal funds
pure jetty
^
shy gulch
You guys remember when the white house was withholding Corona Virus relief money/act at the start of the pandemic.
elder portal
I don't think it withheld any?
shy gulch
Man we could have used those ventilators 🙂
Now he's trying to give it. ORANGE! MAN! BAD!
@shut vine NEver
Once
Said
This
shut vine
I'm just annoyed at the media. Not you.
topaz gorge
Don’t you get why it’s most important to do a good job at the beginning of a pandemic?
opal moat
Orange man a perfect indicator how good your school system is
shy gulch
Im not shaming the Orange Man. I am shaming his overall administration for the slow and shit reaction to the start of the pandemic.
shut vine
Yeah I agree.
topaz gorge
The media is not saying trump is bad for now giving funding. That’s just a made up thing you’ve decided to get mad about
white wing
according to usaspending.gov federal money towards education only really goes to specialized stuff.
faint radish
yeah, lots of issues there. I do remember him banning travel from china in like feb right? and pelosi calling that racist tho...
shut vine
I just dislike how now he wants to give it and it's a bad thing somehow.
pure jetty
it's not really up to feds for education money
topaz gorge
Who is saying it’s a bad thing
white wing
pure jetty
BoE is state-level
topaz gorge
What are you even talking about
elder portal
I try to remove myself from news and politics so I'm a bit behind, but I don't remember the white house actually holding off on relief just because. There were delays in agreements, but that happens
shut vine
Democrats
topaz gorge
Name one?
white wing
fuck I missed a large portion of the convo because I was looking up stats
topaz gorge
Like Twitter people or real people
shut vine
They rejected it in the house/senate, so he used EO to get the funding out there.
elder portal
It's politics, you missed little
shy gulch
Lets not start shitting and blaming shit on groups consisting of millions of people.
Please
Democrat vs Republican is stupid.
elder portal
Mhm
shut vine
I meant the party, not the individuals.
shy gulch
Crazy crackhead redneck republican living on my street corner had nothing to do with the pandemic killing us.
elder portal
Turns out there's a bunch of people out there and they all have different opinions and don't all think exactly alike. Who knew?
shy gulch
I meant the party, not the individuals.
@shut vine Exactly what im saying.
topaz gorge
They rejected bills for cutting unemployment benefits
shy gulch
Blame the individuals not the group they are a part of
topaz gorge
Which is not the same thing as turning down federal money for covid 19 management
white wing
lmao trump himself is an idiot when it comes to COVID but he's not the one really handling the situation.
I mean I'm pretty sure the presidents job is just to delegate work out to other people.
elder portal
Fuck knows what it actually means to be conservative or liberal anyway. It's just a bunch of name calling at this point.
shut vine
I'm 50/50 on that Seki, to be honest, he's had a revolving door.
white wing
Also yeah stop with the tribal thought shit it's not very American at all.
shy gulch
He is a shit president.
pure jetty
Trump is supposed to give guidance
shut vine
Like realistically he's picked the people who are advising him now.
shy gulch
^
elder portal
Someone is going to need to clear cabinet later
pure jetty
what james said
elder portal
That'll be a fun job
shut vine
I don't think you can expect your president to be an expert on all matters, so gaffs are fine.
shy gulch
When the President does not know what he is doing you dont blame the peopel behind him first.
topaz gorge
He’s the commander in Chief. He fucked up so badly at the beginning of this it’s a disgrace.
white wing
he's only president because obama roasted him
shut vine
Reasonably though, no one has really had to deal with this situation in recent history.
shy gulch
The whole idea that the President gets to create the White House administration IS SO FUCKING STUPId
topaz gorge
Gaffs are not fine if the gaff is saying that Coronavirus is not a threat. Or that it will be over by Easter
pure jetty
Trump is nothing new in terms of outrageous presidents
shut vine
Also a lot of states have individual control over their states response to the situation.
white wing
well the countries that are more dictatory are dealing with it fine.
pure jetty
he's just everything in one
Also a lot of states have individual control over their states response to the situation.
this, but trump should give a clear message
topaz gorge
They need federal cooperation to manage a disaster of this scale. Not to mention the fact that they are all going bankrupt because tax revenue is down so much
shut vine
I agree JRoy.
shut vine
I am critical of him, but also critical of those blaming all the problems in the world on him.
white wing
Either way none of the number that we have on COVID are very accurate.
topaz gorge
Lmao imagine seeing what has happened and thinking the response is fine
shy gulch
One of the reason this is the worst presidency is because anything he does wrong is always defended and shit brought to the public is how he said the continent asia to who happened to be a asian reporter.
🙂
elder portal
Main issue is that somehow science became political so now we have people deeply opposed to factual information simply because of their affiliation
No idea how that happened
But hey
shut vine
I mean.. prior to the pandemic which some would argue are his fault.. he had the lowest unemployment rate of a president since what.. the 70s?
shy gulch
His administration took emergancy funds without congress/house approval to start construction on the wall but LOOK TRUMP SAID ASIA TO ASIAN REPORTER
pure jetty
Main issue is that somehow science became political so now we have people deeply opposed to factual information simply because of their affiliation
on both political parties too
elder portal
Yeah
topaz gorge
I fail to see how the markets doing well has any relevance to his response to corona
pure jetty
His administration took emergancy funds without congress/house approval
congress' fault for giving him this power
elder portal
Doesn't matter who, just that it has
pure jetty
House of Cards predicted that exact thing
elder portal
Markets are currently doing well in at least part because we expect them to
white wing
according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
The US has administered the 2 most amount of COVID tests the next two combined don't surpass the amount of tests the US has done.
On the other hand the US is not on the top in terms of deaths per million but on the top 10 and in terms of total cases per million the US is ranked 9.
elder portal
Markets are expectation
shut vine
The scariest possibility is the power the Bush administration gave to presidents to form ECG's.
elder portal
If many expect the DOW to go down, it will
shut vine
An ECG could be formed technically under the COVID19 pandemic.
topaz gorge
Most people do not have investments in stock
elder portal
Doesn't matter
topaz gorge
And unemployment is way up
white wing
Basically there are a lot of variables to consider before you can make a good comparison of the US response to covid vs other countries. Plus you can't even rely on these number being accurate.
elder portal
Mass panic affects all
shy gulch
according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
The US has administered the 2 most amount of COVID tests the next two combined don't surpass the amount of tests the US has done.
On the other hand the US is not on the top in terms of deaths per million but on the top 10 and in terms of total cases per million the US is ranked 9.
@white wing But like you said the most tested. Deaths per tested case aside main statistic we should look at is deaths.
elder portal
And not even mass panic is required
pure jetty
Most people do not have investments in stock
proof?
white wing
@shy gulch I mentioned a lot of variables there not just msot tested.
elder portal
People expected prices to keep falling, so they did. Economy took a tumble
pure jetty
these are all just made up numbers that we gamble on
topaz gorge
What I said is actually not right, like 55% of people have some kind of investment, mostly through company retirement plans
elder portal
Japan was quite fucking for some time. Took massive effort and some near bankruptcies to fix it
shut vine
There is also the fact that there are reports of deaths being ruled SARS-CoV-2 related just based on them testing positive.
white wing
yes there is that too I think colorado included a new law fixing that and number droped a shit ton.
pure jetty
the problem for that too is that we don't know too much about it even now
elder portal
There's an interesting episode on Planet Money about Japan's prices falling and what a dramatic rise or fall could mean for the U.S.
pure jetty
so we don't know the full effects of the virus
so we can't rule out any deaths
that being said
white wing
The problem right now is people making conclusions too quickly on information that might not even be credible.
shy gulch
The whole argument that a death is not a covid death if the person has a preexisting condition is stupid. Its not black and white. We do a shittt load of testing so we should not go off case numbers. Main statistic is deaths and we are leading in them.,
shut vine
Well we know a lot more than we did previously. The death per infection rate is similar to a regular flu.
pure jetty
the stats are misused to clickbait things
shut vine
Just that the rate of infection seems much higher.
white wing
@shy gulch if someone was in a car crash and died due to head trauma in the past if they also had COVID they would be labeled as COVID death.
shut vine
There is speculation that's based on the number of asymptomatic carriers. Which is a plausible theory.
shy gulch
@shy gulch if someone was in a car crash and died due to head trauma in the past if they also had COVID they would be labeled as COVID death.
@white wing Link me to this incident or one like this?
pure jetty
we still don't know if the virus is harmless to asymptomatic people
elder portal
It's happened, but those extreme cases are not common enough to make a large dent in the data
shy gulch
How many people have died while having something like severe head trauma and happened to have covid as well. Even if it was one person thats 1+ to the account of hundred of thousands
topaz gorge
You’re saying we don’t know the incubation period which I think is also not right
pure jetty
we don't know if asymptomatic people are asymptomatic
shut vine
asymptomatic can just refer to not showing symptoms.
pure jetty
and yeah that ^
the fuck you on about
we still know very little about this virus
"facts" about the virus are being rushed due to everyone being so invested in it
shut vine
The incubation period has been shown to depend on unknown factors.
white wing
@shy gulch the reason why I say that is because colorado enacted a law that dropped COVID number by a large margin from what I heard. I could try and find a source.
topaz gorge
So you are saying tons of people may have it, be being hurt by it and not know? How does that make sense? What is the silent ailment?
pure jetty
and we start to assume things that have little to no backing
shut vine
Correct.
topaz gorge
Just because we don’t know all the factors doesn’t mean we don’t know the incubation period
elder portal
I live in Colorado, I don't remember that happening but I could be blind
pure jetty
So you are saying tons of people may have it, be being hurt by it and not know? How does that make sense? What is the silent ailment?
Yes
long term
topaz gorge
Their may be outliers but we still have a range
pure jetty
there are some studies coming out about that
pure jetty
linking it to blood types too
elder portal
If it were dramatic enough I probably would have seen it
shut vine
Could we agree that the criteria for a death to be ruled as a SARS-CoV-2 related death should be the same as an influenza related death?
shy gulch
Main goal should be suppressing the already rapid spread in to keep it from spreading to someone who is prone to death from such virus.
pure jetty
but if you get hit by a bus
shut vine
Well not specifically the same, has to be related to the symptoms of course.
pure jetty
it shouldn't be a covid death
white wing
I don't know what the criteria is though.
shut vine
There should reasonably be two to three categories. Caused by SARS-CoV-2, likely related, and possibly SARS-CoV-2 related.
topaz gorge
What examples are their of people getting hit by buses and being ruled covid deaths? I get there’s some ambiguity when it comes to Co morbidity of other ailments. But that is a terrible example
pure jetty
there's some strange examples of what is considered a covid death
white wing
Anyways if I was a medical professional or someone in a government position of power. I would rather our estimates be larger than smaller, so people can act with more caution.
topaz gorge
The funding for health department is so inadequate they can’t even do the data entry fast enough. Good luck establishing consistent national standards
shy gulch
Even if there are examples are there enough to actually affect the underlying issue.
pure jetty
who knows
shut vine
But if you corrupt the data with a bad process.. you have tainted it completely.
pure jetty
i don't really care
elder portal
As is always the case, the media tends to report the outliers because it makes better titles. Sure, we should fix them, but it's not going to affect the data much
pure jetty
lets just lower the god-damn spread, yo
shut vine
For example one instance of ruling a death COVID related when the person planted their head into the road at 100mp/h is probably a sign you are not properly collecting data.
topaz gorge
James the data was always corrupt, it was not consistently collected. It’s a hodgepodge of data sets from state and local agencies with wildly different standards and working conditions
white wing
I personally thing you won't be able to judge properly how any country dealt with this pandemic until everything is done and over.
pure jetty
yeah
years later
when people aren't invested in it
too much media clickbait shit rn
shut vine
Yep.
elder portal
As is always the case, the media tends to
And this, boys and girls, is what we call an oxymoron
shut vine
We can easily agree on that one.
shy gulch
For example one instance of ruling a death COVID related when the person planted their head into the road at 100mp/h is probably a sign you are not properly collecting data.
@shut vine But how many cases of incidents like this have been reported that its making a difference to a number of 165k
topaz gorge
Like even the most controlled data collection during this was the equivalent of war time reporting, so it’s a fantasy to think that it’s the insane examples that are the big issue
white wing
People saying that the US has been doing good or bad are not being genuine or are just ignorant.
pure jetty
^
shy gulch
That has to be a lot of people getting into severe accidents then unluckily getting covid
pure jetty
nobody knows
topaz gorge
Instead of say, funding the CDC and state healthcare agencies better so they had the resources they needed from the beginning
pure jetty
people who say they know are lying!
elder portal
We've been doing "eh" from my perspective, though my perspective is limited
topaz gorge
Quibbling over the exact number is just a way of shifting responsibility. It’s just barely less relevant than trump calling it the China virus as if that helps any of us now
white wing
@shy gulch Colorado changed their policy regarding how they classified COVID deaths and their number dropped from over 1k to 870 ish.
topaz gorge
Do you get the math of that doesn’t matter?
white wing
I liked one article talking about that not too long ago
topaz gorge
The estimation is over 160,000
shut vine
It literally doesn't matter, once you know that sort of thing gets through it erodes your trust in statistics. I've not read any specific thing related to the road accident situation, but if one of those incidents happened, there is something critically wrong in the reporting process at the hospital and probably the state that it happened in.
white wing
Yeah but again the number don't matter at the moment
shy gulch
if someone has a underlying immune issue and then dies from covid I 100% consider it a death
white wing
As I said before you guys talking bout the US or any countries response with the current information we have means nothing.
shy gulch
If someone has cancer and then they get covid and dies from covid effecting them I consider it a death
elder portal
I'm not sure what arguing over what exactly entails a covid death gets us. It's an exercise in pedantics
topaz gorge
Or let’s say if an entire nursing home gets covid, or choir group
shut vine
I disagree. I only agree when the symptoms caused by SARS-CoV-2 could reasonably be concluded to be a contributing factor in the death.
shy gulch
Its not that difficult to come to the conclusion that covid sped up the process of someones cancer and sealed the deal of death.
shut vine
If someone has brain cancer, dies with SARS-CoV-2, roughly around the time they were expected, and they died from internal bleeding, how is that a SARS-CoV-2 death?
elder portal
And what if aliens abduct us and give us all cancer anyway?
topaz gorge
The symptoms caused by covid could completely overlap with symptoms that were already present, say if someone had an autoimmune disease and tested positive for covid it’s impossible to differentiate what caused what
shut vine
You can't just use a test kit.. oh they had SARS-CoV-2.. that's another one.
elder portal
What's the point of this rabbit hole?
shy gulch
I just dont think the argument that the deaths are heavily exaggerated is solid.
topaz gorge
It’s just a way for people to make excuses for our terrible response. If you just say the numbers are all wrong you can deny the scale of the problem
white wing
Look hospitals from what I heard hospitals have an incentive to label deaths as COVID deaths to get more federal funding. If this is true it's very possible the COVID deaths are overexaggerated. By how much we don't really know.
topaz gorge
Covid treatment is actually extremely costly and unprofitable for hospitals
shy gulch
I worked at a hospital and my mom is a doctor at a cancer clinic in a hospital
There are no incentives to label a death as covid
topaz gorge
Many nurses and doctors are having their hours and pay cut because they can’t make money from more profitable health care
shy gulch
And if there are it needs to have more attention brought to it because thats absolutely insane.
shut vine
I mean, that's just as anecdotal as a single incident of the bus driver someone was talking about.
topaz gorge
What is anecdotal
topaz gorge
shy gulch
You are gonna tell me having a experience in a hospital is anecdotal but a bus drivers incident is not.
🤨
shut vine
I'm saying both are anecdotal.
topaz gorge
“Even with billions from Congress, hospitals set to lose over $1K per COVID-19 case”
shut vine
You had a complaint about that anecdote.
shy gulch
Seriously we are going to extremes to defend your side of this debate
topaz gorge
The bus driver thing was completely made up
white wing
wait I'm confused so hospitals getting more patients mean they go bankrupt?
Wait what?
topaz gorge
It depends on the type of treatment
shut vine
I'm guessing it may have something to do with elective surgeries?
I'm betting elective surgeries are a huge source of income for a hospital.
shy gulch
Health Insurances and hosiptal costs cant keep up
Hospitals here are heavily getting cuts due to the overall economy and covid
shut vine
I think part of it may also be having to spread patients out more?
Though Pencil probably knows more.
shut vine
Yeah, people can't claim their benefits?
shy gulch
THe overall economy is shit and hospitals are not obtaining funds fast enough to keep up with patience
shut vine
Or are unwilling to?
white wing
I mean in NYC there are still surgeries taking place even ones that aren't life threatening.
I know because my mom had one a few months ago to move a nerve.
shy gulch
Yes.
topaz gorge
Covid is disproportionately affecting the elderly and poor, people who’s insurance is either nonexistent or covered by government programs. The reimbursement rates for hospitalization of these patients gives way less revenue to the hospital
Meanwhile people with insurance are putting off medical treatment because they don’t or are not allowed to come in
shut vine
Interesting
topaz gorge
It’s a feedback loop
shy gulch
Right.
white wing
Sounds reasonably true.
topaz gorge
That’s why I think insurance companies are basically parasitic in nature
But that’s another topic really
shy gulch
Overall its difficult to keep up with everything during this time especially funding
shut vine
Forcing employers to provide it to employees exasperates that issue.
shy gulch
Having 1000000 patience in a hospital is not the same as having 1000000 lined up to buy your famous bread at your bread store.
white wing
again making stern conclusions on an areas response to COVID right now is illogical.
shut vine
Yeah, I agree with that.
topaz gorge
You keep saying that but I still don’t see how that is obvious at all. There’s so much incompetence and denialism that has been plain and in the open from the beginning
shut vine
I wish my country had have closed its borders a lot sooner.
topaz gorge
I don’t care about our relative rankings, I just care that we should expect so much better
white wing
The reason why I say that is because information about COVID keeps on changing and will keep changing until we figure out a vaccine.
shy gulch
Even if 25k reported deaths are exaggerated that still leaves 140k -_-
shut vine
I think generally having a rigid idea about what is and what isn't especially in something as complex as this probably isn't very wise.
shy gulch
This argument is so stupid
shut vine
Even after, there are going to be experts who don't agree.
topaz gorge
Yeah I’m trying to hear them out but I’m not getting the logic at all
white wing
yeah and what if instead of 140k deaths it's 165k deaths?
That 25k makes a difference.
shy gulch
Your example has been someone dying from brain trauma from a car crash whilst having covid but what are the chances of a incident even remotely related to this happening>
?
topaz gorge
No it doesn’t. 140,000 is also unacceptable
shut vine
Understanding why 140k happened is important in my opinion.
topaz gorge
The point is that you haven’t shown any evidence for the problem of measuring deaths being at such a scale as to make the handling justified
shut vine
Not the number itself.
shy gulch
Your example has been someone dying from brain trauma from a car crash whilst having covid but what are the chances of a incident even remotely related to this happening? @white wing Ive yet to see a response?
topaz gorge
Understanding why matter which is why it’s completely valid to be critical of the innumerable unforced errors we all saw happen
Way after we should have known better
white wing
I did respond you you with the colorodo numbers.
If I get a single anecdote you're going to say that it's an anecdote.
shut vine
Here's something I found Googling for it: https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-covid19-cause-death-certificate-pcom-20200401.html
shy gulch
I did respond you you with the colorodo numbers.
@white wing You did not respond to my next question of how is colorodo considering deaths. I consider having cancer or a underlying immune issue and then dying from covid a death.
shut vine
It doesn't specifically highlight examples, just a failure in how they were ruling deaths covid related.
I'm unsure of the validity of head trauma being blamed on covid.
white wing
I don't have to if my argument is that there is new information about covid every day and daily and past number are not accurate.
shy gulch
Its easy to start a conspiracy that numbers are being heavily exaggerated but not that states are now narrowly considering covid deaths covid deaths to look better.
white wing
I listed colorado because it's a good example of number changing.
shy gulch
Colorados stance on the virus and its state government is SHIT
white wing
The number could be higher or lower we don't know. We also don't know if they are vastly large or lower.
topaz gorge
There is new information about covid everyday is obvious and means nothing in this context. The question is how accurate is accurate enough
shy gulch
Colorado has been a big denier since the start
shut vine
What are your thoughts on changing the CDC reporting mechanism to the one DHS has?
white wing
That doesn't change my argument that making decisive options about how any area handles COVID atm is not logical.
topaz gorge
And you haven’t shown any real evidence for the scale of the problem being anywhere near high enough
shy gulch
Lets give the reporting number system to another shit Government sub branch
ah yes
The numbers are not being heavily exaggerated. Sure maybe 3 times someone died from a brain trauma while having covid so go ahead and subtract 3 from 165k 👍
shut vine
Could that not be used to manipulate numbers? Or is that just a conspiracy theory too?
topaz gorge
Downplaying the seriousness of the threat is bad policy. Full stop.
shy gulch
Seriously.
topaz gorge
It’s not illogical to think that because it’s not perfectly clear the exact number of dead
shut vine
I don't think anyone was actually advocating that either.
shy gulch
Americans are always trying to dumb shit down and make themselves look beter but simple fact is its bad.
shut vine
Maybe I'm mistaken.
white wing
It's better to up-play the number but also making decisive opinions on how an area handled a situation at this time is dumb
shut vine
He was saying that we can't draw any conclusion yet.
shut vine
Unless he said something I missed maybe.
white wing
no that's all I've been trying to say
shut vine
Could you please show your evidence of him saying that?
shy gulch
Dont change topics. We started with dont make conclusions yet and this led into a Exaggerated numbers debate.
white wing
I've actually repeated the statement a 3 times now but it's flew past peoples heads.
what?
topaz gorge
That doesn't change my argument that making decisive options about how any area handles COVID atm is not logical.
Is the quote
shut vine
Downplaying the seriousness of the threat is bad policy. Full stop.
@topaz gorge who claimed that it's not serious?
That's the topic we are on.
topaz gorge
Plenty of local, state and federal authorities have downplayed the threat and continue to downplay the threat
shut vine
Yeah I agree.
topaz gorge
And have resisted taking the steps needed
Seki is saying I shouldn’t come to that conclusion
shy gulch
If the numbers are heavily exaggerated (which they arent) we should not be debating this until the issue is fixed. Same shit as retards saying mask requirements are against there right whilst the whole country is being affected.
shut vine
This is what I was confused about. Makes sense now, I feel stupid.
topaz gorge
Even though it’s as plain as day
white wing
No I didn't say that at all. If you're talking about policies sure make that conclusion if you're talking about numbers you're being illogical.
shy gulch
Wait till the pandemic is over before coming up with crazy conspiracies that DO come off ad downplaying the situations.
white wing
You assumed I implied something I didn't mean to imply.
topaz gorge
You are being illogical if you think that the numbers are in enough doubt to put them into a range that is somehow different enough to matter
shy gulch
Maybe it was unintentional but saying we dont have as many deaths as the record sates, even saying it could be in the thousands of fake numbers, IS DOWNPLAYING
white wing
It's not through if that's what actually happened
shut vine
It seemed more like him bringing up a concerning situation that seemed to have political motivations.
Well, I think it has political motivations, however that's just conjecture.
shy gulch
You want to go through rereading this long debate be my guest but im telling you what has been said.
white wing
huh?