trans rights
#politics
pearl plinth
mystic ermine
🔥
mint pumice
This can only go well
valid steeple
what about mein kampf
pearl plinth
"This channel is not exempt from community guidelines."
pearl plinth
ironic coming from reddit
sullen plinth
Is advertising Kotlin considered a political act? 
carmine rune
yea
oak cloak
Don't forget Numb3r's explanation of IRC https://youtu.be/O2rGTXHvPCQ
bleak echo
especially if you're a politician
oak cloak
best part of the video is how all the noise the computers are making constantly in the background
pearl plinth
how do they know what network and channel
sand shale
don't ask questions
pearl plinth
i love the leet text lmfao
bleak echo
there is one irc
oak cloak
it's like the ocean
pearl plinth
it was #illegaldeal on chat.freenode.net
oak cloak
it's so h4\/\/t that she knows l33t sp34k
pearl plinth
wouldnt they know there's a random lurker in the channel?
oak cloak
yes lol
pearl plinth
i guess it depends on the network
oak cloak
screenshot says they connected to port_6667 of #channel irc
pearl plinth
theres a channel mode on inspircd that hides users until they speak
mystic ermine
but, depends on the network, as well as in scifi world breaking stuff like SSL is ez
pearl plinth
not sure why they used it
mystic ermine
Pretty sure there are ways to sub to some channels without actually joining them
oak cloak
also remember they're bouncing off a 100 IPs
oak cloak
the hacker dude is so happy to be typing on a shitty laptop too
wearing his cargo shorts
bleak echo
just buy a VPS and set your own rdns
oak cloak
what kind of IRC client forcibly closes your window when someone leaves a channel lmao
lmao that youtube video has closed captions in L337 too
stiff terrace
a politics channel 👀
livid meteor
sand shale
that is a big fucking no
frosty heart
mortal wraith
ah the channel where we discuss the corruption of the world
valid steeple
can we discuss the political ramifications of taking the "weeaboos" and permanently relocating them to concentration camps
shy gulch
viva trotski
stiff terrace
spotted aren't you a weeb
valid steeple
no
stiff terrace
valid steeple
ur literally a weeb
valid steeple
😠
weary lake
Politics channel
no one talking about actual politics
stiff terrace
thankfully
thorny wing
Should really be discussing the politics of tacos
oak cloak
@thorny wing wow way to start a fight
meager ice
Can I talk about the end of times in here
elder portal
stiff terrace
heat death of the universe is so 2019
thorny wing
nothing secret about it 
solid salmon
bleak echo
brisk cradle
Oh no, another politics channel I can haunt
weak wolf
Hey Z
Soft tacos > hard tacos
Unless they're chapulas
Chapulas > soft tacos > hard tacos
weary obsidian
We made it a separate channel so that people who don't care for political talk can hide the channel
Not like politics is new here
pure jetty
smoky hedge
This emoji is from a server that is either private or unavailable.
valid steeple
and who claimed trump was a bad president again
pure jetty
every bad person does at least one good thing
data harvesting
a lot of data harvesting
also a shit app but that's just my opinion
valid steeple
china is gonna use that data to fuel their pop industry
they'll figure out all cool kinds of dances
pure jetty
it's china, which is mostly why its being banned
and those other apps aren't harvesting data for china
and are within US jurisdiction
so its not as big of a problem
restive seal
If this move turns a bunch of pro-trump zoomers against him, I'm excited.
pure jetty
chinese companies are never private
the US branch, while they don't admit it, is almost certainly in cahoots with xi ji
bleak echo
eh for the average american, china can do less with their data than the US can
restive seal
krystal, I'm talking like teenagers echoing their parents views.
pure jetty
but it's scary for china to have the large data set of pretty much all children in the US
bleak echo
not any less scary than american advertisers
pure jetty
security concerns isn't really what they do with individual data, but with all of it
and yes, it's different when it's within the US's jurisdiction
for the government that is
now it will be fun to see what they use as legal grounds
especially since it's an exec order
the recent SCOTUS case didn't help with that tho
man that was such a shitty ruling
tiny pier
communism
brisk cradle
just going to say it but I've moved from being a far-right Tea Party patriot (circa 2010-2012) to an anarchist hiding in social-democratic clothes
smoky hedge
Just be an anarchist hiding in anarchist clothes like me 👀
clever badge
if you anarchists are so smart tell me who's going to maintain infrastructure
weak wolf
I believe the answer would be "other anarchists"
clever badge
simply ridiculous
smoky hedge
I don't really get that question tbh. Infrastructure is important, everyone know's it's important. Therefore it's a communal goal to make it work
mystic ermine
the idea isn't to throw out the entire concept of a system and have no government whatsoever
I believe that the idea is more to throw out the existing system and work to try to rebuild it with something isn't so inheriently shitty
brisk cradle
that is the basic goal
elder portal
Every system has its flaws
The hope is that yours works to fix them
Or at least that you're sitting so far above the problems that you can ignore them
But really the hope is yours fixes them
sweet canyon
Probabaly thinks they gave us the virus through tiktok
smoky hedge
Anarchism also isn't to removal all systems of hierarchy, it's to remove all unnecessary or harmful systems of hierarchy.
weak wolf
There's also millions of different categories of anarchism
Each with their own ideals, goals, and plans of execution
molten forge
yes
clever badge
what is the less shitty system you're going to replace democratic capitalism with
is anarchism the process of changing or is it the goal
if it's the former, what is the goal
if it's the latter, which 'version' of anarchism are you going to make everyone agree on and how is it going to be implemented
people like to look at anarcho-syndicalism and imagine that it's the solution to everything, and then they give the Mondragon corporation as an example, the problem with that is that the Mondragon corporation is still fundamentally based on capitalism
brazen thistle
Total anarchy when
shut vine
What about EO 13818, and the heavy sanctions he's brought against XPCC and the CCP officials with strong ties to the XPCC?
Re Trump eventually doing something right.
weak wolf
if it's the former, what is the goal
There's also millions of different categories of anarchism
Each with their own ideals, goals, and plans of execution
Literally depends on who you ask
meager ice
Look global economic collapse will happen in 20 or 30 years so everyone has no choice but to embrace anarchism 
clever badge
it's literally impossible for that to have a positive outcome
meager ice
Never said it would 
opal moat
capitalism sucks anyway
buoyant mango
^^
capitalism isnt bad, people are
people can even turn the best things bad (not saying capitalism is the best)
opal moat
idk probably you're right but I just don't like the concept at all
opal moat
Sure
pure jetty
nobody really knows what's best
mystic ermine
am not really sure what else there is
opal moat
I just understand the idea that you have to pay for basic necessities like food and water. Imo you should have to pay more for luxury products, and less for basic stuff
buoyant mango
comunism
pure jetty
socialism
buoyant mango
isolation 
mystic ermine
viable options which don't result in passing more control over to state
pure jetty
personally i think capitalism is the best system out of the ones we have
just needs a lot of government overlook
(more than it currently has in the US at least)
mystic ermine
most issues people have with capitalism should phase themselves out as all the boomers fuck off
buoyant mango
*needs a competent goverment
opal moat
maybe. But I think pure capitalism, like the us has, is bad. If you look at it in european countries it's better
but not good
plush crypt
im very happy with the socdem in norway
mystic ermine
That's nothing to do with the system
opal moat
healthcare, rent, pension, stuff like that
pure jetty
idk about rent but healthcare sure
altho not to everyone,
private healthcare isn't always bad
the rich shouldn't be getting government backed healthcare
mystic ermine
imho, they should
pure jetty
or people whos jobs give them included healthcare
opal moat
They should, so that everyone receives equal access and medical attention
mystic ermine
in the super magical ideal world, y'all'd basically get something like the NHS
Just, good luck
opal moat
But they should pay more into the system, by more taxes
mystic ermine
maybe one day
pure jetty
i'm just trying trying be realistic, private healthcare isn't going anywhere
mystic ermine
it doesn't have to
doesn't mean that people should be restricted from the public system because they have private
You can't scream a fair and equal system and then "be gone richies"
That's not how it works
pure jetty
i meant shouldn't need to be forced, sorry if that came out wrong
so i agree with you i think
plush crypt
i think the gov should at least let private be private. if people want to go to some private hospital to try experimental shit they pay for, that's on them. i am 100% throwing shade at norwegian gov for banning private hospitals from giving meds public ones can give
opal moat
I'd love to have a system with exponential taxes, like as soon as you make more than let's say a million per month you basically pay 100% taxes on anything over that
pure jetty
that's kinda dumb imo
mystic ermine
that just stifles growth
plush crypt
at that point you also get those trolls who do 999k/mo over several countries and bank accounts
buoyant mango
^
opal moat
you have that already anyway
mystic ermine
at the end of the day, capatalism works because it allows the man sitting in the street to make his way up and get to the top
plush crypt
exactly, it'd pose no positive
opal moat
does it tho
opal moat
No one can earn as much as beezos with fair and hard work
pure jetty
beezos got their himself
mystic ermine
sure, there are shitty companies out there which would sooner see you flipping burgers for the rest of your life, but, that's on the companies, not the system
opal moat
no he didn't
pure jetty
he doesn't force people to work in bad conditions
opal moat
he doesn't but the system does
pure jetty
bill gates is a better example
buoyant mango
ultra rich companys also like to do legal tax evasion
opal moat
beezos got rich of of peoples back, like almost every other billionaire
plush crypt
although technically true, he should still give them better conditions from a regulatory perspective
mystic ermine
That's how companies work
pure jetty
the people working for amazon couldn't have built amazon
mystic ermine
if you said to that man, "you can only earn so much before it just goes into our piggy", they'd literally never bother
pure jetty
Jeff built amazon and took a risk
mystic ermine
Yes, some companies have ultra shitty practices
But, once again; that's not on the system
opal moat
I don't think that would be bad. People should be valued more than progress or invention or anything else. Our live should be the most valuable thing there is, and not just some stepping stone to get rich
mystic ermine
I would love to live in the world that star trek predicts
universal income would also be amazing
But, there is that balance
if your life is already paid for you, why get off your ass?
pure jetty
i don't think it's capitalisms fault or these companies fault tho
if we had free college
that would solve this problem
mystic ermine
But, at the end of the day, this is literally how companies work
pure jetty
because more people could be more educated
plush crypt
i oppose universal income
pure jetty
and get better jobs
opal moat
but why don't we have free college? because capitalism lol
pure jetty
well yes and no
mystic ermine
That's literally stupid
elder portal
As the name implies, this is indeed politics!
mystic ermine
Somebody has to pay for it
plush crypt
it should be up to the person to get a decent, humane agreement with an employer for a job, and something like norway's NAV to pay people enough to live actively looking for jobs
mystic ermine
no ifs no buts
pure jetty
well yeah taxes
mystic ermine
Over in the UK, the government pays for a fair chunk of stuff
college up to a certain age is on the gov
opal moat
Yes, but free in that case means that you personally don't have to pay for your education, bcause the complete community pays for it for everyone
mystic ermine
past that age cap, or higher education, you gotta pay yourself, but, there are systems in place to help there
elder portal
Good luck getting people to agree to higher taxes though, eh?
opal moat
You wouldn't even need higher taxes in many places
plush crypt
the idea of student loans is the same, aurora: someone else pays for it just as you take the education, then you're in on paying it down
pure jetty
also the fact that college debt cannot never be forgiven is stupid asf
one of the ONLY forms of debt you can NEVER default on
mystic ermine
Over here, 30 years and anything left is written off
I could literally never pay a single penny on my loan and in 30 years, poof
near glen
if your life is already paid for you, why get off your ass?
@mystic ermine if you don't need to worry about your existence, that frees up your mind to do greater work and be generally more happy
opal moat
so true
mystic ermine
It depends, however
pure jetty
^ depends on the person
mystic ermine
I know maaaannny people who'd be content to just sit on their fecklass ass all day
We call 'em dole dossers
buoyant mango
gets boring sometime
near glen
Those ppl just sit currently too
near glen
It's not like we have no social nets right now
pure jetty
what you said he true in some people mini but others use work as their only goal of getting up in the morning
mystic ermine
but acting like it magically solves shit is just stupid
near glen
The point of UBI is also getting rid of bureocary
And it also could solve elderly having to collect bottles since their pension isn't enough to life
plush crypt
i again raise the point of what we've got going on in norway: search for jobs and the gov will pay for your rent, food, and some entertainment as your "salary" in the meantime. you have to document the applications, and if you get an interview, also document how it went. no need for UBI, and you still don't really need to worry about your job situation
mystic ermine
We have that over here too
opal moat
I know that there isn't a magical solution to that stuff. I'm just thinking about my personal experience and issues I've had, and how that would have been better
mystic ermine
more spread out but they're working on consilidating it
near glen
But that's a bunch of work bureocary was proxi. Monitoring all that, granting the money, etc
plush crypt
we've got it in our "unemployment agency" so to speak
elder portal
The argument I see a lot is that people should need to earn what they get, which is valid until a point. That kind of thinking leads to people saying "that person on the street earned their place there" which at minimum is disingenuous and ignores a lot of hardships, and at worst is dangerous and has killed many people that could have genuinely helped our world
near glen
It works exactly the same in Germany btw
plush crypt
and yeah, that's more jobs for people, plus it's really necessary with immigration, and unstable and evolving jobs in mind
restive seal
earning what you get will only get us so far as automation takes more and more jobs.
pure jetty
mystic ermine
That's why I trained up as a dev, not sure they can replace us, yet
pure jetty
as quickly
near glen
It's just like, all our system is so stupid anyways, why should I as a dev earn so much more than other ppl, they work as hard or arguably even harder
plush crypt
developers will always be needed tbh
elder portal
Yeah, one day most of us will be replaced. We'll need to have a plan for that
mystic ermine
everythings a metric of value
near glen
Like, am 23, I earn more than my mom, she studied as long as I did
mystic ermine
It's just how the world works
elder portal
Even developers aren't immune to being replaced by robots
plush crypt
mini rich 😳
near glen
Am not "rich"
mystic ermine
At the end of the day, you gonna pay somebody the same an hour to mow your grass as you get paid for an hour of work?
near glen
I earn above the average, yes
That's why I said that both my mom and me have studied 3 years
opal moat
But that's a bunch of work bureocary was proxi. Monitoring all that, granting the money, etc
Just my story: I was unable to work and continue my training at 19 due to health issues. I got paid by the healthcare for 80 weeks and got 70% of my previous salary. After that time I still wasn't able to work tho, so I got into the unemployment system. They told me that I would have to apply for pension, because they don't think I'll be able to ever work more than 15h/week, and that means I'm valueless for them and can't get unemployment benefits. So, I would have had to apply for pension. You can only do that when you are over 25 and have paid at least 3 years into the pension system. I would have had no income until I'm 25 (21 now), but still had to pay stuff like healthcare (~200€/month if you aren't employed and the unemployment agency is not paying for that)
near glen
She works at a kindergarten
opal moat
Now I earn a bit thanks to a very kind soul, and moved to austria and can start a new job on monday, hoping that it will work out and that my health issues are somewhat fixed. If not, it all starts again
elder portal
Here's a great example. My best friend is Mexican. His parents brought him here when he was a kid. Because of that, he could only work here in the U.S. and had absolutely no hope of going to school for an education so he could get a better paying job. He's intelligent and incredibly hard working, but his growth was completely stunted by factors outside of his control, and he will never be able to earn as much as I can, even though he's better at a lot of things that are arguably more important. Did he earn his place?
near glen
That's a whole other issue tbh, access to education
elder portal
All he has is a high school diploma and he will never be able to get more
near glen
That's why education is basically free here in Germany
elder portal
The idea I'm trying to depose is that of "everyone earns their place in life and if you want more you need to work harder"
mystic ermine
At the end of the day, it's not entirely the system itselfs but the people controlling it
mystic ermine
in general, if you put more effort into something, you'll rise up assuming there is space and people aren't pushing back
what stopped him going for education?
elder portal
He can't due to his status
No financial aid
And he's as broke as any other college student
Circumstances that are out of his control, and also very common
weary lake
Countries should just stop being absolutely idiotic about immigrants, that would already solve a whole bunch of issues.
mystic ermine
I mean, it's kinda shitty that a country founded on immigrants fucks over immigrants
RIP EU
Nice knowin' ya
near glen
in general, if you put more effort into something, you'll rise up assuming there is space and people aren't pushing back
@mystic ermine you could argue that I put no effort in but got higher than ppl who pureed all their life into their education and work
mystic ermine
That's dumb and discrediting your own efforts
elder portal
One day maybe his children or grand children will get lucky, but the only way he can get into college as cheaply as the rest of us is if he goes into the military and survives
buoyant mango
but for real equality, you should also take genetics into consideration, people with health / mental issues are (most of the time) unable to work as hard as a normal person
mystic ermine
even if you're a feckless moron, you put in more effort that a fair % of people in the world
near glen
Because I had the privilege to have a good family and was gifted with intelligence and am in the right industry
mystic ermine
at the end of the day, your value is often your intrinsic value to others
elder portal
Yeah, I got lucky
I feel like I barely put in work and I'm set for life
Actually set for life twice over
near glen
Like, I prolly have enough money on my bank account right now to pay off cats student loan
Now tell me that's fair
elder portal
And here's my best friend with no hope of having any job above a pizza delivery driver
meager ice
Oof
elder portal
Both of us got where we are not based on our own merit
Not at all
I got lucky, he got unlucky
That's it
buoyant mango
i was born into a bad family, was plagued by issues left & right, now i'm 19 and already getting paid pension because i'm probably never beeing able to properly work in my life
luck & family is a big factor in life (aswell as where you live)
meager ice
My mom always tells to thank god for not being born with issues
weary lake
We need some kind of system to make sure everyone can live a 'decent' life, regardless of external factors. Either via UBI or just make the government pay for essentials. You can throw capitalism and free market at luxury goods as much as you like in my opinion, as long as you provide everyone with the same essentials.
near glen
Yeah, the where stuff is part of luck I guess. As I wouldn't be in this situation if I was born in the UK or worse the US
mystic ermine
as I said, I would love the star trek type workings of the world
buoyant mango
better than most todays system, but also not perfect
mystic ermine
people are valued on their contributions to society as a whole or an individual vs just making their way up the ladder
opal moat
And what if you cant contribute to society?
mystic ermine
Like, I don't want to be a twat, but, like; if you're the type of person who's gonna sit there and do nothing all day, you're not gonna head up
elder portal
Mhm, I was born into a family with a lot of land in the U.S.- I will likely be a multi-millionaire in the next 5-10 years simply because that land exists. Did my great-great-great-x-x-x grandparents earn it? Maybe, sure. Did I earn it? Certainly not. Did my best friend earn his place in poverty by being born Mexican? I don't think so.
mystic ermine
if you actually have a reason that you can't contribute to society, society should help look after you
if you can't contribute to society coz you can't be assed, 🤷♂️
near glen
if you can't contribute to society coz you can't be assed, 🤷♂️
@mystic ermine those aren't the norm tho
mystic ermine
you should see the UK
restive seal
Problems happen when people disagree on what qualifies ability to contribute, and deliberately suggest that people who cannot are just lazy.
near glen
Like, we like to meme about the ppl livng on gov funds here in germany, but the large large majority would love to have a job and even accept jobs where they earn less than what govs pays
mystic ermine
Yea, I personally don't think it would be viable or even really all that justifable to say "fuck you" to those people
near glen
And like, even UBI will not lead to a nice life
mystic ermine
well, moral; at the end of the day, my belief is that in the ideal world, people would get along, basic resources for living will be 0 care, and we can focus as a society on moving forward
near glen
If your dream in life is to sit in a small flat and watch TV all day, go a head and life off my taxes
I don't care
And 38% of my wage goes to the gov right now
weary lake
There should be extra funding for people that cannot work because of an illness apart from the standard funding (UBI or other stuff). If you don't work because you can't be bothered ^ Mini's response. If you can and do work, you'll make more money, allowing you to enjoy a more "pleasent" life.
near glen
Most ppl also have a really bad feeling about living off of gov funding
They don't want to be bothering others, idk how to express that better
elder portal
Ultimately it boils down to people saying "they should earn their keep" actually meaning "I don't think it's fair that I would have to put in work for someone else", but that exact type of thing would be better for society as a whole. Thinking "I don't want to pay for someone else" is putting yourself before the betterment of society. Maybe you don't care about that, and that's fine- but don't pretend you're saving anyone or any morals by doing so
near glen
And want to get off of it asap
buoyant mango
i'd like to work, but there is no viable workplace to work in for me
opal moat
If your dream in life is to sit in a small flat and watch TV all day, go a head and life off my taxes
you should sponsor me on github
buoyant mango
xd
near glen
Link? 😂
opal moat
i'd like to work, but there is no viable workplace to work in for me
this is what my doctors said as well. I might have found something, I hope for monday
buoyant mango
near glen
I and send some of the sponsor money I get, lol
opal moat
uwu
near glen
weary lake
For some stupid reason I currently don't pay any taxes, because my tax reduction is higher than the actual tax I need to pay, even though I have no expenses, so that's eh interesting
near glen
You had one job gh
buoyant mango
F
mystic ermine
God, I remember when the family company dropped
The thought of going on unemployment was just literally the worse
I ended up making a break for it to college
near glen
Anyways, gtg
buoyant mango
see you later
elder portal
Enjoy
mystic ermine
hope you trip
elder portal
Lol
frosty heart
Cola instead of beer? That picture is FAkE
dreamy rose
not proper channel but you dont know whats behind frame 
near glen
See, you normally mix cola with what?
dreamy rose
normally with nothing, but in germany with whiskey prob
valid steeple
you know I wonder how effective it would be for germany to put covid-19 into concentration camps
dreamy rose
dirty joke :((
valid steeple
are those outlawed by the new guidelines?
dreamy rose
viper got banned for joking of school shooting
restive seal
From that twitter post linking to their statement on the hacking incident, the top reply was this
buoyant mango
@dreamy rose *with vodka or whisky
smoky hedge
Lmao, so the Australian government has done something super sketchy
https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/super-risk-millions-could-miss-out-on-jobseeker-021541052.html
Earlier this year the government allowed people to withdraw from their superannuation for a short period of time, and actively pushed people to do so.
Now, they've saying anyone who did that can no longer claim unemployment payments.
Basically, money in super does not count towards the cut-off threshold, but money that was withdrawn does
brisk cradle
Meanwhile, in America, expanded unemployment benefits came to an end
Of course the next relief bill is tangled in partisan combat, with Democrats wanting to spend money to keep the economy in steady-state while Republicans wanted everything to reopen yesterday
America's response to COVID-19 has been 
brisk cradle
Part of it is the Trump administration, and another part of it is conservatives who have been drumming up all sorts of misinformation to comfort them, in the hopes America could avoid "the China virus"... but COVID-19 knows no borders
Well after other countries got COVID-19 under control, America has barely been able to contain the first wave
ngl if we elected Hillary Clinton, then there would've been a better chance of a coherent response to COVID-19 from the federal government
But then we'll probably see the opposite: Republicans will reject federal assistance because the gunmint is evul, they're butthurt over Hillary Clinton being president, the virus is no worse than the flu (heh, heh), the virus will just get bored and disappear, and of course conservative billionaires spending dark money to downplay the threat. Meanwhile blue states will enthusiastically accept the aid in a bid to keep things under control.
pearl plinth
with hillary the virus would've "committed suicide" tbh
shy gulch
Everyone always fucking compares in politics
Its pretty simple. The politician is making decisions the best for his/or country or they aren't.
I dont consider myself a democrat nor a republican but I truly think Trump is a overall shit president.
mystic ermine
Well, if clinton won, we'd all probs be too worried about the current world war vs a virus
It's hard to say that any of them was the better option
They're both shit
they're both covered in scandles after scandles
shy gulch
I doubt it. Hillary is a shit person and politician but Id say she is equally as bad as trump.
mystic ermine
Only pro of hillary is that she's well versed of dealing with these scandles
She wanted to stir the pot with russia and syria
shy gulch
Its not like Trump is careful when it comes to relations with other governments lol
They are both shit.
mystic ermine
Not saying that he is otherwise
shy gulch
People should step away from the "what ifs" and focus on current issues.
Does not mater how shit would have went with Hillary because Trump won :/
The issue with the Trump opposition mostly made up with democrats is they attack him for the stupidest shit.
mystic ermine
Well, yea, that's the current issue with politics in general
shy gulch
He has done so many questionable things and the medias headline is calling him a racist when he honestly is not one
mystic ermine
as much as I hate to say it, who hasn't joked around with shit like locker room talk?
shy gulch
Right.
verbal pilot
me
mystic ermine
I mean, not the worlds he said, but, like, we're guys; I find it pretty unbeliable that as many people casting a stone at him are innocent themselves
The thing that pisses me off the most is the whole "getting offended for others" BS
verbal pilot
ya, empathy is the worst... oh wait
shy gulch
The guy literally stole hundreds of millions from the national emergency fund to start construction on his wall which was not yet approved by congress or the house and I saw almost nothing about that. Imagine a time when our country could have used national EMERGANCY funds.
mystic ermine
Like, I understand the whole "looking for the community", like; if somebody was attacking a mate, I'd stand up for them
shy gulch
But look at this clip of him saying "china" to a asian reporter
mystic ermine
But, when two friends of different creed/color/race can't even walk down the street without getting looks at the jokes they crack at once another, it's a bit... you know...
shy gulch
Right.
Thing is where I live you would never see a incident like that
and thats the issue with america
ITS SO FUCKING BIG AND DIVERSE
Why does some redneck living in a shack get to say the administration in Detroit is not racist
People dont form opinions from experience anymore
Its all Mob Mentality
If you happen to live in a very equally diverse area then great!! Dont start saying the whole country is this way.
Honestly these people arent bad. They think what they are saying is fact and end of the day its just ignorance.
mystic ermine
There are shitty areas of the world, some of it is just baked so hard into elders that it's literally just gonna take those fuckers to die off to move forward
The issue these days is that the room to discuss is often cut off
verbal pilot
Are you guys using a sentence generator?
mystic ermine
Nobody is willing to listen to one another; I remember chilling with my mate at college and you know how besties crack shots at one another, at least, that's what us brits do
I called her something and some femenist ran over and started having a go at me
We both just looked at one another like "wat"
mystic ermine
I remember trying to explain that she's my bestie and that there was 0 intent to cause any harm towards her, pretty sure she even missed out on the belter my mate dropped as she was too busy screaming
mystic ermine
Ever heard of jordan petterson?
mystic ermine
He's a lecturer from canaderp, talks about these types of issues, and it's comical watching the hypocrisy on his debates
Not from him
But, you'll often see canidates aiming for all the protections from saying harmful things just belittling other members on the panel, and it's just scary
shy gulch
Debates are gonna fade out of existence. People would rather sit in facebook groups strengthen there stupid ideas with eachother then learn and teach.
Issue is
Things like the internet has brought groups of people with the same thought together. Instead of talking and listening to the opposition they continue to talk with eachother and strengthening these stupid ideas.
A lot of my pals have different political views but we can still get along
mystic ermine
It's all down to respect
shy gulch
I know so many people that wont stand within 5 feet of someone that has a different political view then them
mystic ermine
The world will be in a much better place once we can learn to respect others opinions and listen towards them
I have my own views
There are people in here who have their own views which will conflict with mine
bleak echo
Ever heard of jordan petterson?
eww fuck jordan peterson... he did a speaking gig that some of my friends worked and described as a bad gig.
i mean i guess he's just another self-help guy but he gets the worst fans
shy gulch
especially with people who have different views then mine
I want to learn why they think the way they do and how they get to these conclusions
mystic ermine
Everybody gets the worst fans these days
bleak echo
nah, i'd take choir kid parents over his fans
but also i've listened to some of what he's said and i haven't found it all that exciting? his hot takes aren't much worse than a lot of self-help, and his advice sounds about as useless
mystic ermine
politics
exciting
He does a chunk of self help stuff, but, am not really interested in that aspect; like, don't think you'd see me buying his book
The major thing of him that makes me enjoy watching his talks sometimes is how he carries himself across, even when he's essentially getting mocked or attacked
bleak echo
i mean also from what i gather he mostly got famous from whining about C-16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_Human_Rights_Act_and_the_Criminal_Code and claiming it would require him to gender people property?
mystic ermine
That's not what he's arguing
His argument is that he doesn't believe that the government should be policing this with laws in the manner that they are
On the other side of it, he respects people and has stated that he would call people with their preferred gender if asked to do so, that's basic respect
shy gulch
When someone goes ape shit on you for ACCIDENTLY misgendering someone is that respect?
smoky hedge
People who often claim to be accidentally doing it often aren’t accidentally doing it
When you’re in situations where you get legitimately misgendered vs purposely misgendered, you very quickly pick up on it
shy gulch
that was not what I was asking
what I asked was
When someone goes ape shit on you for ACCIDENTLY misgendering someone is that respect?
shy gulch
If someone misgenders someone on purpose to upset them
then sure
they are asses
If I misgender someone on accident does that give them the right to go ape shit on me?
mystic ermine
That's a dumb question
bleak echo
you can't give a yes or no answer, because no situation is that simple
shy gulch
Why not explain to me? Im not trying to offend anyone I just want to learn from what others think. Fact of the mater is accidently misgendering people happens all the time and its met with the most stupid backlash.
bleak echo
i mean are you misgendering someone because you're trying to guess their gender from their name on the internet or something (when you could very easily not)?
shy gulch
If I walk up to someone who looks like a man and I call them a man am I a bad person?
bleak echo
what does "looks like a man" mean to you
smoky hedge
I'd say you're acting very odd, yes 😛
bleak echo
ah yes, traits no woman has
also big shock most of your interactions with people you don't need to involve their gender?
mystic ermine
Imho, people have the rights to make their voice heard, it's as simple as that
shy gulch
Simple english uses a lot of gender pronouns
thats how it is
Now I for one think pronounds should not be as much of a deal as they are made out to be
bleak echo
not really, it's pretty easy to not gender people when talking about them
mystic ermine
The real complexity is "how do you correct it", I think that the best thing we could ever really do is de-gender the language
smoky hedge
English as a language is somewhat easy to de-gender though
bleak echo
yeah, english is way easier to degender than a lot of other languages
mystic ermine
Yes, it's just actually getting it done on a societal level
smoky hedge
I don't think I've used gendered language outside of specifically referring to certain people in years
shy gulch
not really, it's pretty easy to not gender people when talking about them
@bleak echo This is what I mean. I define many people as "he, she, etc." and will continue to do so
bleak echo
i mean your fault for making bad assumptions
shy gulch
Im not gonna use some simplified english to make others feel better neither
bleak echo
then you're the asshole
smoky hedge
IRL, some of the only people who I gender beyond "they" are trans people, generally because they prefer to be explicitly gendered over "they"
smoky hedge
Yes
bleak echo
you can't have a functioning society without the majority of people putting in the effort to be nice to people around them
mystic ermine
you're an asshole for not taking the time to correct yourself
smoky hedge
If made up language rules is your justification for harming people, you are, yes
mystic ermine
Yes, it happens, especially in a world where gendered language is the norm from a young age
shy gulch
Big difference from purposely misgendering someone to piss them off and doing it on mistake like the situation I provided
you can't have a functioning society without the majority of people putting in the effort to be nice to people around them
@bleak echo
smoky hedge
Well, sure - an accident is fine
But if someone called you out and your response was "Sorry for using proper english", then it's not fine
mystic ermine
On accident, the best thing people can do is correct, which, I can't imagine the horrors of having to deal with that all day, going full rage on any topic is literally never the correct answer, but, it's 100% down to respect
bleak echo
yeah people make mistakes, but you should adjust your habits to reduce the mistakes you make, and quickly correct yourself when you are informed about mistakes
shy gulch
If someone tells me they want to be called a she then whatever idgaf ill do it
bleak echo
(fun fact: the same philosophy works really well for software development)
shy gulch
Im not gonna start using tinkered english to keep people from freaking out over nothing
bleak echo
what is "tinkered english"
shy gulch
if you seriously are gonna have a mental breakdown over me accidently calling you a "man" over your preference then you need to calm tf down and check yourself.
smoky hedge
FYI it's not a preference :^)
bleak echo
so again, what is "tinkered english" and what is "nothing"
mystic ermine
it's literally fuck all to do with "having a mental breakdown"
It's literally just basic respect to one another
shy gulch
Is it not a preference?
mystic ermine
if somebody wants to deal with the issue with screaming and shouting, that's on them
smoky hedge
Define what is a preference. Being a man/woman/etc is not a preference, no. Being gendered correctly is not a preference. Some people prefer some pronouns over others, that is a preference
mystic ermine
How would you feel if people started referring to you as a female all the time?
mystic ermine
that's not what I asked
shy gulch
But this situation does not compare to mine
If multiple people mistakenly called me a female Id remind them im not and move on
smoky hedge
I think what you're not exactly understanding is how harmful misgendering can be to a trans person, and you're comparing it to how you would act if someone incorrectly assumed your gender
shy gulch
If I grew my hair out and made it look like I had skinny hips and a big waist I would not be surprised of anyone called me a female or/and especially not get mad at them for doing so
mystic ermine
idk about you, but, if somebody called me female consistently, I'd get pretty miffed
shy gulch
Im just answering a question
I think what you're not exactly understanding is how harmful misgendering can be to a trans person, and you're comparing it to how you would act if someone incorrectly assumed your gender
@smoky hedge
mystic ermine
(Except for when I've got my heals out, that's erm... friday night stays on friday night)
shy gulch
The real question is this as serious as its made out to be?
bleak echo
yes
shy gulch
If someone constantly calls someone a male and they know they are a male transitioning into a female id for sure say that should fall under harassment
smoky hedge
Imagine if the entire world was consistently trying to tear apart a core aspect of your identity
mystic ermine
if a whole bunch of the community started misrepresenting your identity, you'd probs feel a bit shitty and attacked
bleak echo
i mean it's just like if your name was steve and people kept calling you stan
because you "looked like a stan"
shy gulch
Last thing id tell someone about myself is that im a man
Id tell them I like video games
and eating buffalo wings
and talking
bleak echo
ok
shy gulch
and o btw im also a male
Its not as serious as mentally breaking down when you are mistakenly called the wrong pronoun
keyword
mistakenly
bleak echo
what is this "mentally breaking down" you keep talking about
smoky hedge
So you're firstly misrepresenting how people react, and completely under-representing how impactful misgendering a trans person is
shy gulch
But why tf should we move forward into a future where "pronouns" are what define us so much
where we need to always be careful on using correct pronouns
smoky hedge
Pronouns don't define anyone
The pronouns aren't the problem
The complete lack of respect for someone's identity is the problem
shy gulch
So back to the question
When someone goes ape shit on you for ACCIDENTLY misgendering someone is that respect?
mystic ermine
No
bleak echo
you're asking a question that can't be answered without a lot more context.
smoky hedge
Pronouns are a construct of language. If you use the wrong pronoun, you are indicating you do not respect/agree with their identity
shy gulch
Never once have I agreed that attacking someones identity is right
mystic ermine
that is not respect, nobody ever said it was
shy gulch
Pronouns are a construct of language. If you use the wrong pronoun, you are indicating you do not respect/agree with their identity
@smoky hedge This is bullshit
mystic ermine
But, once again, this is shit that these people have to deal with daily
I can understand pretty easily that somebody whos identify is attacked day after day might flip
shy gulch
If I called someone a man and they asked for me to call them a woman THEN SURE I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM
mystic ermine
Them flipping is an entirely different issue
smoky hedge
I have personally never seen someone flip out over being incorrectly gendered - I'm sure it has happened in a few instances. If that was the case, they were probably very worn down by consistent issues, and maybe had other stuff on their mind at the same time
Being aggressive isn't okay, yeah
shy gulch
Personally I have seen 100000 instances
smoky hedge
I very much doubt that
shy gulch
along with another hundred thousand document on the internet
smoky hedge
I know many many many trans people, I have quite literally never seen it happen. Even in response to malicious misgendering
shy gulch
And great! But does that mean I havent?
bleak echo
^ yeah like nobody is that good at confrontation
i mean if you have i'd imagine there's some very not-accidental misgendering going on
smoky hedge
No, I just said I doubt it - Seeing it 100000 times when I, who likely knows more trans people, have not seen it at all
shy gulch
Just because you have different experiences then me does not mean I have not had certain experiences
mystic ermine
Nobody here is saying that it's right for somebody to flip off on anybody
shy gulch
I live in the East Coast
Metropolitan area
I see that shit all the time
It happens to me a solid amount
smoky hedge
I'm not american, that means nothing to me
bleak echo
there are many east coasts
mystic ermine
it happens to me a solid amount
bleak echo
i think the constant here is you
smoky hedge
I live on an east coast if that counts 😛
shy gulch
Then why tell me you doubt I experience this?
mystic ermine
Being perfectly honest, with your commentry here, am somewhat not surprised
bleak echo
i don't doubt you get yelled at... i just imagine it's probably a you problem more than a them problem
shy gulch
So if I call someone who I think looks like a man a "man" I am the issue?
back to the question -_-
bleak echo
i mean if you're going out of your way to gender someone, yes
smoky hedge
If it's happening that frequently, it may be worth considering that possibility
shy gulch
I dont experience this frequently. Its happened to me maybe 3 times. I see it a lot tho.
mystic ermine
It's like you're tryna skirt around the points for an answer you can either scream "There, I told you", or refute entirely based on your own circumstances
shy gulch
Well the thing Is I have not gotten a straight answer
smoky hedge
Your question is very much a strawman argument
shy gulch
Your question is very much a strawman argument
@smoky hedge Not from this lad
bleak echo
i mean considering how many times you shift what you're asking or refuse to clarify
shy gulch
Why not give the answer and then start telling me about gender identification?
bleak echo
it's strawman
shy gulch
Ive never shifted my question lmao
shy gulch
Ive quoted and asked it multiple times
mystic ermine
It's not respectful to start screaming at people in any capacity
it's literally /that/ simple
screaming resolves fuck all
But, once again
bleak echo
it may not be respectful, but nobody starts screaming for no reason
mystic ermine
I can kinda understand why it happens
and de-escalation is a critical step of stuff like that
shy gulch
Many people consider dumb shit a reason to start screaming
it may not be respectful, but nobody starts screaming for no reason
@bleak echo
mystic ermine
and so they have a dumb shit reason to scream
smoky hedge
Define "dumb shit"
shy gulch
I consider screaming over someone calling you a man ON FIRST INTERACTION BY MISTAKE a dumb shit reason.
smoky hedge
Because if someone walked into a town they didn't care about and set everyone's houses on fire - the person who did it may consider it dumb, but the inhabitants very much did not
When you say "calling you a man", can you provide an example of how this interaction would play out?
shy gulch
right
its a escalation
Lets reference a situation ive seen
Some guy bumps into someone who identifies as woman and says "sorry man" this causes her to stop him and tell him he is a asshole for misgendering and not using the correct pronouns. This leads to him telling her it was a honest mistake and thats when the screaming starts 🙂
smoky hedge
It's impossible for me really to comment on a specific instance
Like there is so much extra context that is impossible to convey there
But yeah, screaming at someone isn't good
shy gulch
I respect and dont care if people decide to transition into a different gender. Let me clarify Im a advocate for people to transition into a different gender if this will make them feel comfortable in there body because of gender dysphoria. I dont think pronouns should lead to canceling someone or cause a big freak out incident.
smoky hedge
To clarify, you mean accidental misuse of pronouns, correct?
mystic ermine
nobody has said it should?
shy gulch
To clarify, you mean accidental misuse of pronouns, correct?
@smoky hedge Yes.
smoky hedge
I'm not actually sure what this discussion is trying to achieve at this point tbh lol
mystic ermine
^^
shy gulch
I also generally dont believe we should have to use neutral/genderless pronouns because of peoples feelings.
smoky hedge
It seems like it's going around in circles on agreeing with the core point
I mean, you're not forced to - but using gender neutral pronouns by default makes more sense, and is in general a polite and respectful thing to do
Also some people (myself included), go by gender netural pronouns - so using anything other than gender neutral pronouns is technically incorrect. I don't think I have ever corrected someone's pronoun usage regarding myself, however
shy gulch
I completely respect that
I also respect the fact that you dont make a big deal out of it
My point is I think shit like this is blown out of proportion
smoky hedge
It is hard to say whether it is or is not, because it is very difficult for someone to experience how someone else is feeling
mystic ermine
You're missing the entire point
At an individual level, people should aim to resolve issues like this respectfully
smoky hedge
So if you feel someone is overreacting, they may not be overreacting
shy gulch
Well sure yeah everything is relative
I think if you saw and heard the shit I have you would very clearly and obviously consider it overreacting.
mystic ermine
There are individual cases on both sides where people have over-reacted to affirm their point
Nobody is saying that it's correct to do
shy gulch
End of the day I think people should be let alone to figure there own identities out without interference and I should be let alone to make mistakes and continue to call people he/she.
I dont understand how people can actually get upset over someone else deciding to transition to another gender because it has absolutely nothing to do with them and wont affect them at all. Saying this people tell me I should use genderless pronouns because of something as simple as a accident does INVOLVE me and Id wish to do otherwise.
smoky hedge
What is your aversion to using genderless language, out of curiosity?
shy gulch
I consider it proper english and I dont think something as stupid as changing the use of a language should have to be done under most circumstances.
If someone asked me to identify them as genderless then I wouldnt care
smoky hedge
It's not any more proper than using singular they, for example
But also - languages evolve anyway
shy gulch
I enjoy the occasional "bro, dude, man, guy"
smoky hedge
To be fair, no one is saying you can't do that
shy gulch
I dont think our language should evolve into some censored mess in order to uphold everyones sensitivity
smoky hedge
It really isn't though
shy gulch
Agree to disagree.
bleak echo
what moist, are you from the royal academy of English or something?
mystic ermine
Nobody is saying that gendered terms should be censored?
shy gulch
We can argue on philosophy and facts but end of the day fixed opinions will stay the same.
Nobody is saying that gendered terms should be censored?
@mystic ermine Just answering a question made by 4502 ❤️
mystic ermine
But, that's not his question
shy gulch
What is your aversion to using genderless language, out of curiosity?
@smoky hedge
mystic ermine
genderless language != censored language in any capacity
Yes, if they literally made it wrong to use gendered terms, that would be an issue
But, nobody is pushing for that
shy gulch
If I have to change the certain way I talk in order to cancel out the current way I talk I consider that censoring
smoky hedge
In English, historically, he has been the term to use when a gender was not known. Recently (last few decades), that has started to be replaced by singular they
shy gulch
Cross out her and rewrite them
smoky hedge
If it's a person you know is a woman, using her is fine
shy gulch
right
If someone tells me how they want to be identified in pro nouns then I will do it.
For the most part we agree on the same shit.
mystic ermine
as we open to a more progressive society where people can be free to identify publically as they desire, stuff like "he" being the genderless and gendered term is more and more of a !!, especially when alternatives already exist
It's about transitioning society as a whole to be more open and accepting towards one another
shy gulch
I dont think we should transition society to a point were pronouns are a big deal and something to have to be constantly thought about
mystic ermine
pronouns in general aren't the issue
it's about respect to identity, and the nature of "he" is really shitty for that
solid salmon
imho if you call someone by their sex and they correct you then thats fine
he/she by default refer to peoples apparent sexes
but idk thats just my opinion im not here to argue lol
shy gulch
but remember when all of this did not mater?
mystic ermine
it did matter
Just because people haven't cared about it until 'recently' doesn't mean it didn't matter
smoky hedge
Generally things that are seen as harmful now were always harmful, the groups were just oppressed enough that they didn't have a way to vocalise that it's harmful
shy gulch
I dont think misidentifying pronouns in harmful.
mystic ermine
it's not about just the pronouns
solid salmon
what's definitely not ok is for people to be intentionally mis identified
mystic ermine
You're trying to take the entire argument and boil it down to a very centered point
shy gulch
I think harassment is harmful. I think misidentifying someone who has stated they dont feel comfortable by being called something is harassment
what's definitely not ok is for people to be intentionally mis identified
@solid salmon I completely agree
This really is going nowhere and has been stretched far from what it originally was.
icy fiber
I'm actually suprised
A Discord server that allows for political discussion 😮
Aight so in response to above with the whole pronoun things. My take on it is if pronouns are used as a type of personal flare, showing your personality and who you are, cool! But, if it's used to try potray yourself as the opposite gender, then not cool! My reasoning is those who suffer from gender dylexia have approx the same suicide rate, even if they game their physical appearance and get acceptance for it. Instead, I think they should be encouraged to get professional help. I'm no expert, but that's my thoughts.
plush crypt
seems this channel also provides easy way to find out who to block
icy fiber
ooftles
mystic ermine
be gone proxi
plush crypt
mystic ermine
It was decided to create a channel as we don't really want this in #general but, being the type of community that we are were people talk for the sake of it, it's gonna happen
Not fond of a channel as it sorta encourages it, but, it's gonna happen anyways, so, rather it be out of the way
icy fiber
Fair enough
smoky hedge
Yeah, I do agree that it's encouraging the discussions - it's also hard to not get sucked into political discussions when there's a channel specifically for it
But isolating it to a single place is positive IMO
near glen
Gender dylexia, wtf
bleak echo
?
opal moat
I think they meant dysphoria
Also, regarding that thing with people being aggressive if you accidentally use the wrong pronouns, I saw I comic on Twitter yesterday about avaguely similar situation, and it kinda fits here
shut vine
I think the whole pronouns thing is an interpersonal negotiation. It's a bit like names, not that I'm comparing them except as an example; you can request someone do or don't call you by a specific name, they can refuse. You can then decide what to do. The government shouldn't really be involved in that, and it should not be acceptable for someone to get violent in response to someone not respecting their wishes.
I also think that someone who says something to another person just to upset them isn't a mature member of society.
opal moat
Also, for me at least, accidental misgendering is more hurtful then when it's done on purpose. Because when someone does it on purpose, it's usually because they just do it to upset you, and I'm fueled by spite
When someone does it accidentally that means that they by definition know my pronouns and probably also know that I'm trans. And when that happens then it doesn't feel like "they slipped up, it's okay", it feels like "despite everything I've been doing for that last year's and every hurdle I had to take and every time I cried myself to sleep and the hard work I've been doing, when they see/hear me their first instinct is still man and only after that they see me as who I really am"
And that hurts way more.
shut vine
I can see why someone may feel that way to some degree.
Obviously it's a bit hard to understand another person in general.
Would you say a lot of those instances occur when someone is introducing you to someone new?
opal moat
No, mostly happens with people that knew me before
shut vine
I'm curious what the cause is, maybe understanding that may help in some way?
opal moat
It happens a lot with people that you know for a longer time but don't really regularly meet, most likely because they don't have adjustment time like closer people do
But just because you know that doesn't change how it feels
shut vine
Well, people tend to remember things they connect emotions to. Have you tried explaining to those people how it makes you feel?
opal moat
I solved the issue for me, but that is more like a general trans experience I was explaining 😊
shut vine
Ah gotcha
pearl plinth
Ah damn I slept through a great debate over common human decency! That's the last time I'll ever sleep for sure. Just spent 30 minutes reading over the conversation so here's my tl;dr and commentary so you don't have to sit through all that.
- Is it disrespectful to assume someone's gender?
I saw a lot about this, and you have to be careful when you assume. When you assume you're basing people's gender off of the stereotypes they portray, and as we all know stereotyping is a slippery slope. Stereotyping commonly leads to gender dysphoria in trans people, so they have to spend their time matching their gender's stereotype's and, regardless of what they do, doesn't make them any more or less valid. I saw some blatant stereotyping, but you gotta remember the wall between female and male isn't that different. Females acting like men have been a thing for quite a while, so I suppose it's more acceptable than the vice versa. So is it disrespectful? Not really, especially if you've never met this person before. Personally for me, I have to deal with it constantly but I always feel scared to correct them, so I never do. - Why do people act aggressively when I "accidentally" misgender them?
There's "many" instances of people acting out over being misgendered. There's many possible explanations, a) they're doing it to make trans people look bad. This is more common in transphobic areas, giving the actual trans people bad impressions. b) they're tired of the abuse and didn't vent in time. Venting is an incredibly useful tool but used at the wrong time just makes a large scene. This has happened before and honestly I feel like my time to burst will happen too soon. c) it wasn't "accidental." 99% of the time a trans person will correct you politely, but if you don't return the politeness, then the anger is justified. Don't be an asshole and don't believe everything you see at face value.
(1/?)
- Is using singular they "proper English?"
As of recently, yes. In fact, Merriam-Webster dictionary recently added singular they to their dictionary last year (and it became the word of the year for them even). It's as simple as "He did this" to "They did this". This is much easier online than in person, in fact, I accidentally misgender my non-binary friend sometimes in my head 😛, that's just my brain stereotyping I guess. The definition of "proper" English changes all too often, new words are added and meanings change all the time. If you're stuck on "proper" and what's "not proper" you're in the past and need to update your software to the latest version. - Who can use different pronouns?
I saw this brought up at some point, can I just go around changing my pronouns willy nilly? Depends on your motive. If your motive is just "lmao pronouns funny," then no, you're being an asshole. If you're questioning, then sure, it's hard to find what pronouns fit, and sometimes querying what feels "right" is hard. Brain science sucks! Finding out your "gender" is anywhere as simple as "I feel more comfortable being x" and as complicated as "i dont even know what I am." Ever wanted to do something but it just doesn't feel like the right thing to do? That but every single day and it's destroying your mental health. Welcome to the life of a trans person. - How can I avoid being rude?
It's not really difficult. Your brain will want to stereotype based on society's impression of what "male" and "female" are, and it entirely depends on where you live and who you interact with. Everyone is different, so until you find out their actual pronouns, you might accidentally misgender them or worse. They may or may not correct you, as I said I probably wouldn't until I'm more comfortable presenting as myself in public. Best case scenario is just use "they" but this isn't always easy, especially in day to day conversations.
Be accepting and open to change, and you'll be fine.
(2/2)
solid salmon
Be accepting and open to change, and you'll be fine.
Truest words in the whole post, nice one chew 🙂
shut vine
Point 4. Should we then be asking people for their motive or do we assume everyone's motive is pure until evidence to contradict that comes up?
faint radish
yep pretty much agree w/all that. but since this is the politics channels after all, I will say I do have a problem if any of that becomes "forced". Not societal force, like, for example, being rude, gets you societal pressure pushed back against you. but forced, under some sort of civil, or criminal penalty, like that bill C-16 in canada for instance. https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained
shut vine
Point 2. If someone asks you to use a specific pronoun, you don't want to, so you politely say you're not going to do that. Would anger be justified then?
plush crypt
yes
anger is always justified if the other party is simply disrespecting your identity
shut vine
Yeah C-16 is a bad bill. It compels people under the threat of large fines and jail time to refer to someone in the way they want.
plush crypt
but in reality, either party should just.. leave. drop contact with the other party; the respectless idiot isn't worth their time anyways
shut vine
I agree with dropping contact.
tulip tendon
if you're not gonna respect someone's pronouns, you might aswell walk away from them and not bother them anymore
shut vine
That I think also applies in reverse, if you're expecting someone to respect treat you in a certain way and they wont you should not interact with them anymore.
That's a good personal boundary, in general.
Prox, when you say anger is justified do you mean raising your voice, yelling, etc?
Or physical violence, or just not being happy to continue the conversation?
tulip tendon
anger = being angry? what you listed are possibles consequences of anger, not anger itself. being angry is justified, not everything that follows
shut vine
Yeah that's what I was clarifying.
plush crypt
physical violence is never justified
shut vine
It is, when someone is threatening your person with physical harm.
plush crypt
raising your voice sure, but at that point youd really just earn from leaving instead
imho its never justified, full stop. if someone else threatens and attempts, yes, it may still be used, but its not justified in my eyes
shut vine
Well, I don't think it's nice to have to, and no one should ever have to defend themselves.
tulip tendon
think everyone can agree on this
shut vine
I hope it's clear my intentions are not malicious.
plush crypt
i would not think less of someone who defends themselves with violence given they dont escalate it unreasonably; that said, still a nono, theres always another way
bleak echo
meh violence is easier sometimes
pearl plinth
You gotta understand it's not just me going up to you and calling you "John" when your name is "James" or whatever. For context, imagine if everyone called you John, always, every single day. What if you told them your name was James and they said "Nah, you're John"? This was brought up before but the point still stands.
I agree, physical violence is never justified, but after being poked constantly every single day, saying "dude stop" shouldn't be unexpected.
Not respecting their pronouns "just because you don't feel like it" is quite literally harassment, and is completely unacceptable.
For #4, I would hope people are genuine and host with their motives so I don't think asking why would make sense, however, some people are like that I guess just "for the luls" (example someone's "pronouns" were "it/object")
Some additions:
There's more pronouns than just he/she/they, some people actually prefer other pronouns like kit or it. Personally I've never seen someone offended by being referred to as "they" (except transphobes of course, who think you're destroying their concept of gender).
Also would like to define what being trans is for those who don't know, just to stay informed.
Trans = Your mind not agreeing with your body. For example, mind/gender is female, while body/sex is female. There's a lot of science to go along with this, but this is the general gist.
What trans ISN'T: ACTING like your gender. Take trans women for instance, a lot of misinformed transphobes like to think "trans women" = "man in a dress" (which is commonly referred to as a "drag queen", btw). It's not, you don't have to do anything to be trans, it's just whatever makes the dysphoria goes away ™️
Dysphoria, btw, is a mental illness that is prevalent mostly in trans people when the body mind disagreement happens. It varies entirely depending on person, and how their brain decided they wanted to fuck them over that day.
gotta stop with these text walls
shut vine
Yeah, but violence is completely wrong in the western world except to defend yourself from active physical harm z0w0.
How would you determine if someone is just doing it "for the luls" Chew?
bleak echo
"the western world" ok
anyways if you're not ready to guillotine some cops and some landlords what are you doing with your life
pearl plinth
I gave an example
pure jetty
just use they/them everywhere and avoid this!!!
that's what I do all the time unless its one of my friends
I don't think i even think about it
i just started using they/them one day and never had a problem
but as has been said, if someone corrects you, don't be an asshole
You're not going to win anything by pissing people off in a conversation
If you're conversating, one of your goals should be to minimize conflict during the conversation
balmy quartz
TRUMP 2020
drifting arch
so how bout that whitelist/blacklist controversy
personally, im like, ok
idc really, allowlist/denylist are pretty clear
pearl plinth
i wouldnt be surprised if mojang change it to /allowlist or whatever
shut vine
I don't care if people change that, but I don't feel it accomplishes anything of significant value.
If people want it changed it doesn't really hurt anyone though.
pearl plinth
given the circumstances it feels like theyre doing it to ride on the hype train and not necessarily because "it's the right thing to do" or whatever
oak cloak
I prefer the terms allowlist / blocklist as it's more clear, and yeah it removes another overloaded use of color terms which have historical significance
valid steeple
most people don't care, and the people who do care really just want to look good
shut vine
If certain people don't want to change it, again it doesn't really hurt anyone. If people don't like being involved with projects that use it that's their choice.
pearl plinth
the most questionable I see is master/slave when relating to nodes and all that, that one's kinda uh, blatant. otherwise i dont see any valid argument than "white/black bad"
shut vine
I agree Spotted.
pure jetty
white black duality predates race
oak cloak
Ah the "no one actually cares, those who care have ulterior motives" argument
pure jetty
it's a stupid problem
shut vine
It seems like virtue signaling mostly.
oak cloak
yeah master/slave is 
thorny wing
master/slave is pretty bad anymore, and arguably can be made clearer, that being said there's a lot of people who arent bothering to actually replace it properly
shut vine
Well master/slave isn't specific to race either.
drifting arch
im learning a lot of terms that i frequently use are actually offensive; i dont actively try to be offensive 95% of the time, and its like "wow ok eye opener" and i try to stop but i've been saying this stupid shit all my life (not trying to excuse it) and it keeps slipping out and i feel like trashcan :(
pearl plinth
anyone have that twittercomms tweet stating what they were changing?
thorny wing
white/black is a day/night sun/dark reference unrelated to race but frankly I cant say Im going to get all that worked up about it
bleak echo
I mean virtue signalling is useful if you want people to like you
oak cloak
biggest thing regarding white/black is, I'm a straight white dude, I'm not going to sit here and tell other people that these terms aren't hurtful to them
If I did I would just be a raging asshole
pure jetty
the fact that people get upset at words in the first place is that its stupid
bleak echo
idk imo it's morally neutral - what you actually do to combat racism matters
mystic ermine
Well, you're not raging, so, that parts clear
shut vine
I agree JRoy.
mystic ermine
;P
pearl plinth
I agree, you aren't allowed to be offended if you're not the target/victim imo
pure jetty
you're not talking about slave trade
bleak echo
master/slave is actually kinda yikes though
final latch
Honestly master slave is just a stupid way to phrase it anyway
pure jetty
you're talking about git or whatever
oak cloak
You allowed to define what is offensive for other people either
bleak echo
even if we all just thought it was normal a few years back
final latch
Why not just pick something else
pure jetty
but yes master/slave is more "problematic" than white/black
final latch
It was always kinda yikes ngl
bleak echo
luckily in a lot of cases names are pretty easy to change
oak cloak
look at who originally came up with these names lol
final latch
I don’t see how whitelist and blacklist are really that bad
pure jetty
but what pisses me off even more is that 90% of the people getting mad at master/slave and whitelist/blacklist are fucking white
oak cloak
a bunch of nerds sitting inside all day not talking to anyone
pearl plinth
ikr JRoy lmao, welcome to society
pure jetty
the more words you deem to be "racist" is the more words you give to them
drifting arch
i mean, i never made any connection in whitelist/blacklist to white people/black people, but like... i guess i can see it? and the fact that 'white' is allowing and 'black' is denying? like idk m8. i can see it, never did before, but i can. idm if they change it, this one wouldn't be too hard for me to change to
oak cloak
well that's just because most people in tech are white. It's all about projecting the voices of the minority
thorny wing
projecting is one thing, there does seem to be some wanting to speak over which needs to stop
pearl plinth
I mean, they might as well change Hex colors, #000000 = black? this is implying black people are nothing!!!
oak cloak
yeah absolutely
pure jetty
by saying whitelist/blacklist is racist, you're basically giving those words to racists
pearl plinth
there comes a point where it's just gone too far with no real effects
shut vine
I like Morgan Freeman's take on it.
shut vine
Yea
pure jetty
but i feel like he has a good take
thorny wing
thats not a terribly uncommon opinion on it
pure jetty
could just be because im white who knows
thorny wing
the argument for it however is that it wasnt particularly recognized that it was american history until there was a month
which is itself a controversial take
pearl plinth
I remember seeing that argument before
thorny wing
keep in mind, things were not always as rosey as they are now
not that they're particularly amazing in all aspects even now
oak cloak
"stop talking about it" is definitely not the solution to racism. That's well known - you have to actively push against racism. If you don't, then people won't recognize their own biases, won't recognize systemic issues, won't recognize problematic language, and nothing will change. I think most people would agree that race is still a major issue, so the idea of just "not talking about it" and leaving it where it's at is essentially saying "it's fine how it is now"
pure jetty
The problem about fighting racism/other isms is that too much is deemed to be problematic
We've stopped caring about context because our attention spans are fucked
You say a single word, no matter the context, and you're automatically deemed to be ignorant
Not that I really have a problem with switching to language that makes everyone feel okay
final latch
Can you give an example of this
pure jetty
But if you think about it, nothing at all is changing
You're replacing one (problematic) word for one deemed better
shut vine
blacklist/whitelist. Context would show they are not racist.
pure jetty
But both words functionally mean the same thing
final latch
The vast majority if people that I know do not care about those terms
pure jetty
In which case why did we replace the word if they both mean the same thing
shut vine
His point is you have to take into account intent I think.
pure jetty
All these processes breakdown when you start to think about them for more than 5 minutes
thorny wing
I would generally agree that context plays an important part in understanding the conversation, I would also say that it's all a sliding scale and even in specific contexts people may be liable to say something they probably shouldnt because they are ignorant of it, but I would again tie that to context and not an instant outrage thing
the world is a series of grey sliding scales
shut vine
I agree.
bleak echo
but also if we actually dealt with racism language wouldn't be as much of a focus
shut vine
Think it's important in those instances to have a discussion.
solid salmon
you know my 2 cents are i never even thought of blacklist/whitelist as even remotely potentially racist until people starting talking about it a week or two ago
moot point in my opinion
final latch
I feel like people are focussing on these pointless things as a distraction of things that actually matter
shut vine
I feel like people are too easily labelled racist. I don't think that's constructive to actually bridging a divide.
faint radish
doesnt the whole light is good, dark is bad simply come from daytime being good and known and not scary while nightime was dark and scary 1000s of years ago?
final latch
Who are these people
valid steeple
what predates race is ur mom
faint radish
🔥
thorny wing
while I agree with the history, what words mean and how they're used change with the times
shut vine
I think he's referring to the people calling for banning blacklist/whitelist.
faint radish
that comes from the same thing
shut vine
Though I'm not sure.
faint radish
black being unknown and dark, and white being known and good
thorny wing
we arent here to launch our own dictionary or to launch some PR campaign on the true meaning of words
at the end of the day we're here to write server software for a block game
pure jetty
i agree that words change with the times
faint radish
well this is a politics channel Z
thorny wing
bLoCk gAmE
shut vine
Yeah pretty sure we're discussing it more as a philosophical thing not specifically about PaperMC.
I could be wrong.
thorny wing
I understand, just sharing our general view point
not going to talk over you or shut it down or anything
faint radish
also, the whole "master bedroom" thing, pretty sure the first time master bedroom was used was in the 1930s in a sears catalog or something
shut vine
Nah I don't feel that at all.
thorny wing
people are very quick to demonize anymore
thats another not great thing about today's world
faint radish
it wasnt the traditional name for a slave masters room or anything afaik
thorny wing
there really is sort of a perfect storm of events going on in the world that means people should be having these sorts of conversations, even if they dont all come to the same conclusion
shut vine
Well that's part of the problem, it's not limited to any specific group. People are quick to label another person in various ways when they don't actually take the time to understand their viewpoint or the logic behind their viewpoint.
drifting arch
@pure jetty what you talking about whitelist/blacklist mean the same thing lol
pure jetty
read all my messages as one group
faint radish
now, "Sold down the river", I don't know exactly where that came from, but it sure doesn't sound good on the surface.
pure jetty
i wasn't talking about that
drifting arch
oh i see, sorry
pure jetty
it ok :p
drifting arch
@shy gulch cancelled is what twitter does to ppl, it basically means like
pure jetty
where
drifting arch
they're gonna boycott them and bully them until they deplatform
but notch never did
pure jetty
did he delete tweet
pure jetty
ah i see
oak cloak
That's like, one of the least-worst things he has said
pure jetty
i think i get what he's trying to say?
pure jetty
is that all he said
or was their more
did he tweet that out of the blue?
oh just looked up Q Anon
basically pizzagate
shy gulch
so basically sharing his strong opinions on stuff
at best what people could do is idk, simply ignore him instead of pouring oil into fire and argue/try to cancel imo lol
he won't go anywhere
icy fiber
What's the topic fellas?
drifting arch
dude yeah cancel culture is so fucking...yikes
just that whole idea
"we dont like you, so we are going to ruin your life"
icy fiber
Oh yeah, that's aids