archived-modding-development

[leaden hedge]

test.SetupNewPlayerData()

test.version

[rain cedar]

I guess

[leaden hedge]

only gotta do it once

on load

[rain cedar]

The version is just a hard coded string in SetupNewPlayerData and SaveGame

Fucking hell

It has to come from somewhere for the string in the menu

[solemn rivet]

Verulean: no hard cap, but sorta

[rain cedar]

That's probably hard coded too, though

[leaden hedge]

probably an fsm string

somewhere

[rain cedar]

Nah there's a much easier way

There is a GameVersionData class

They've even got a way to get major, minor, etc versions

They're just not using it in PlayerData or GameManager

This class isn't static and it doesn't have an instance member so I'm not sure how best to access it

[young walrus]

Only 1600?

Felt like way more

[solemn rivet]

@hazy sentinel

[leaden hedge]

TeamCherry.References,gameVersionData ?

[rain cedar]

Not sure what you mean, KDT

Oh, I see

[leaden hedge]

that must be on something

[rain cedar]

I never noticed that TeamCherry namespace

TeamCherry.References is never used according to dnspy

[leaden hedge]

it'll be on a gameobject

actually it won't

FindObjectsOfType<References> might find it

[rain cedar]

It's easier to just add a version string to the modding API than to deal with this

For now I guess I'll just use reflection to check if one of the GT things exists

Because that's easy and I'm lazy

[rain cedar]

Alright, new debug mod is up:
Options to respawn Grimm and NKG
Enemies panel now detects Grimm and NKG properly
"All Charms" button gives new charms and makes fragile charms unbreakable
Added button to change Grimmchild state
Added overcharm toggle to charms menu
Fixed self damage for new patch

Didn't test extensively but I'm pretty sure I didn't break anything for 1.1.1.8 with this

The buttons are still there because I'm too lazy for version specific UI but they just log a thing to the console that you can't do that on this patch

[rain cedar]

@cold bluff

I haven't tested that but it should fix the gate

[cold bluff]

worddd

where do i put this

hollow_knight_Data?

[rain cedar]

Nevermind it doesn't work

[cold bluff]

lol

[leaden hedge]

rip

[rain cedar]

Same place as other mods

The mods folder

Hang on let me try something else

[cold bluff]

oh it's 1 directory further

[rain cedar]

Oh I see

GetGatePosition on TransitionPoint doesn't do what I thought

Fixes random transition between Path of Pain and Forgotten Crossroads

But it's also untested

Alright it worked

The transition doesn't randomly go to crossroads

What a world to live in

[buoyant wasp]

@leaden hedge - So there is a bug with PlayerDataDump.GetCurrentVersion() which causes the query to the version.txt file to not work right. Basically Mono.Security (which is what Unity ships with), doesn't include any SSL Certificate Roots at all. So all queries to the page over https fail with "Invalid certificate received". I've looked at the unity forums and it seems like the only real fix is to run some mono executable that imports the root CAs, but not really a fan of that approach. We could disable the validation on teh SSL certs entirely, but again, not really something i want to do either....

[leaden hedge]

hmm

[buoyant wasp]

i was confused about why It wasn't saying there was a version mismatch when i was testing, but sort of had ignored it until now, added the exception to the catch and logged it to modlog and get this

[PlayerDataDump] OPEN
System.Net.WebException: Error getting response stream (Write: The authentication or decryption has failed.): SendFailure ---> System.IO.IOException: The authentication or decryption has failed. ---> Mono.Security.Protocol.Tls.TlsException: Invalid certificate received from server. Error code: 0xffffffff800b010a
  at Mono.Security.Protocol.Tls.Handshake.Client.TlsServerCertificate.validateCertificates (Mono.Security.X509.X509CertificateCollection certificates) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at Mono.Security.Protocol.Tls.Handshake.Client.TlsServerCertificate.ProcessAsTls1 () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at Mono.Security.Protocol.Tls.Handshake.HandshakeMessage.Process () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at Mono.Security.Protocol.Tls.ClientRecordProtocol.ProcessHandshakeMessage (Mono.Security.Protocol.Tls.TlsStream handMsg) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at Mono.Security.Protocol.Tls.RecordProtocol.InternalReceiveRecordCallback (IAsyncResult asyncResult) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  --- End of inner exception stack trace ---
  at Mono.Security.Protocol.Tls.SslStreamBase.AsyncHandshakeCallback (IAsyncResult asyncResult) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  --- End of inner exception stack trace ---
  at System.Net.HttpWebRequest.EndGetResponse (IAsyncResult asyncResult) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at System.Net.HttpWebRequest.GetResponse () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at System.Net.WebClient.GetWebResponse (System.Net.WebRequest request) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at System.Net.WebClient.DownloadDataCore (System.Uri address, System.Object userToken) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

[rain cedar]

I'm considering just adding try/catch into the hooks in the modding dll to print errors

So you don't have to manually do it

[buoyant wasp]

that'd be nice 😃

[rain cedar]

It would also prevent one mod from breaking another

Because as is I'm pretty sure if one function in an event breaks none of the ones after it in the queue run

[buoyant wasp]

that seems like a likely scenario

[leaden hedge]

jsut hope the broken one runs last

[rain cedar]

I'll have to look into how to get the actual function being run from a Delegate

So I can log it properly

[leaden hedge]

can you not do a stack trace

in the catch

[rain cedar]

The Delegate class has a MethodInfo attribute

I'll just use that

[leaden hedge]

oh I figured out yet another problem with fsms

[rain cedar]

But yeah I should print the stack trace too

Although the exception string should contain that anyway

[leaden hedge]

HutongGames.PlayMaker.Actions is completely empty, and gets compiled from somewhere at runtime

but its required to get function prototypes

[rain cedar]

I'm seeing a ton of stuff in that namespace

Doesn't look empty to me

[leaden hedge]

in the assembly?

or in game?

[rain cedar]

Assembly

[leaden hedge]

this is all I get

[rain cedar]

And that's not even done with A yet

[leaden hedge]

wtf

[rain cedar]

Oh wait I see

You're looking in PlayMaker.dll

That's in Assembly-CSharp

[leaden hedge]

oh

so it is

[rain cedar]

Not gonna bother putting that in the drive since it'll get fixed soon anyway

[buoyant wasp]

"this one should work "

[rain cedar]

It does work

[buoyant wasp]

yeah, just thinking edit the wording

[rain cedar]

Repinned the drive link to keep it on top

[buoyant wasp]

like "Fixes random transition between Path of Pain and Forgotten Crossroads"

or something

[rain cedar]

Yeah alright I'll change it

[lone dust]

is there anyway to do the debug mod where you can have the effect of taking damage (like infinite HP) but use fotf (stay at 1 hp)?

[rain cedar]

You can manually up your nail damage

[buoyant wasp]

could you damage yourself to 1hp then set the invincible flag?

[lone dust]

@buoyant wasp yeah i wanted to have the effect of taking damage though so i could know if/when i was taking damage

im practicing the grimm boss

[buoyant wasp]

ah

[lone dust]

good idea tho sean

[rain cedar]

Guess I could change infinite hp to not automatically heal you to full

[leaden hedge]

with my build its 55 damage

[lone dust]

yeah thatd be cool sean

if its easy, you could also just add a "fill hp" option too

[rain cedar]

Not sure how that would work though because all that the infinite hp cheat does is heal you to full constantly

[lone dust]

not sure how thatd work since its not a boolean but 🤷

oh i see

[leaden hedge]

just add a toggle to enable fotf constantly

[lone dust]

yeah thatd work too

but i guess thats just the same as increasing damage haha

[rain cedar]

I think I have an idea

[lone dust]

is fotf a multiplier or additive?

[leaden hedge]

1.75x

[lone dust]

kk

with str rn its 32 dmg, so 1.75x that would be 56 i think as you said

[leaden hedge]

55 or 56

not sure if it rounds up or down

sean do you know if theres a button to save all classes to cs files?

[rain cedar]

Fury is up

[lone dust]

nice

[rain cedar]

File -> Export to Project

[lone dust]

last question, how do you manually change the nail dmg

[leaden hedge]

=-

= is more

• is less

[lone dust]

gotcha

[rain cedar]

I made a change that should make infinite hp work the way you want

But I've learned my lesson, I'm gonna test it first

[lone dust]

haha 😛

[leaden hedge]

i hate that javascript doesnt have classes

[lone dust]

haha it "does"

[leaden hedge]

it makes this fsm shit so much harder to port zzz

[lone dust]

syntactical sugar classes Jebaited

[leaden hedge]

it has objects which can contain function and variables like a class

[lone dust]

well, it has a class constructor

[leaden hedge]

but its not a class

[lone dust]

hmm maybe that is es7 actually

[rain cedar]

Alright nevermind

[buoyant wasp]

I really want to learn TypeScript

[lone dust]

oh no, classes are es6

[buoyant wasp]

but just haven't had the time

[rain cedar]

My plan was to hook HeroController.TakeDamage and set it to 0 damage if infinite hp was on

[lone dust]

word around the block says typescript is slowly dying 😭

[rain cedar]

But they're checking if damage is 0 and not doing any damage effect

[leaden hedge]

yeah thats how it works for everything

instead do the playerData.TakeHealth

that might work

unless they've moved stuff

[rain cedar]

Alright

Might still die if we're hooking it there

We'll see

[leaden hedge]

if (this.playerData.health == 0)
{
base.StartCoroutine(this.Die());
}

shouldn't die

[rain cedar]

tiaW

[leaden hedge]

unless you actually go to 0 hp

[rain cedar]

Ok something I did was making me type backwards

I don't know how I did that

But anyway, "== 0"

Good job, Team Cherry

Just gotta get negative hp and you never die

[lone dust]

is it all in js?

[leaden hedge]

ah but

            if (this.health - amount <= 0)
            {
                this.health = 0;
            }

[rain cedar]

Shit, my foolproof plan

[lone dust]

wow... i could totally help mod and such then

[leaden hedge]

nah this is in csharp

[lone dust]

ah okay, close enuf-ish

was the game written in unity?

[leaden hedge]

javascript is for fsm web viewer

and yes it is

[lone dust]

nice

[rain cedar]

Oh boy this would get annoying very quickly

[lone dust]

now i only need to solve my laziness problem 🤦

[rain cedar]

It's doing the death effect when I get hit

[lone dust]

LOL

[rain cedar]

But at least it "works" other than that

[leaden hedge]

you know what

                if (this.playerData.equippedCharm_5 && this.playerData.blockerHits > 0 && hazardType == 1 && this.cState.focusing && !flag)
                {
                    this.proxyFSM.SendEvent("HeroCtrl-TookBlockerHit");
                    this.audioSource.PlayOneShot(this.blockerImpact, 1f);
                    spawnDamageEffect = false;
                    damageAmount = 0;
                }

could always set that to true if you're invincible

[rain cedar]

Yeah, I'll try that

[leaden hedge]

it'd still have an effect, but probably less annoying than the death noises

[rain cedar]

No it doesn't play the death noise

Just the black circle thing that radiates outward

Probably less annoying than the baldur shell effect tbh

Eh this is good enough

[leaden hedge]

oh

baldur shell lol

I wanted to do carefreeShield lol

WTF

are they retarded

[rain cedar]

Yes

It's a pretty good switch

Too hard to do hitsSinceShielded*10

[leaden hedge]

I don;t even know

[rain cedar]

Oh I see, it's only *10 for the first 3

I can kinda see why they did this then

Still bad implementation, though

[leaden hedge]

(hits x 10) + (hits==4 x 10) + (hits>=5 x 20)

[rain cedar]

@lone dust I just uploaded the new infinite hp cheat

So you can stay at 1 hp if you can deal with the extra hit effect

[lone dust]

nocie

[brazen bramble]

woah

[rain cedar]

woah

[buoyant wasp]

woah?

[rain cedar]

Whoa!

[buoyant wasp]

you figure out how to fix the randomizer? (no pressure, just curious what the solution ends up being)

[rain cedar]

I haven't really looked into it yet

I can probably just check for inventory in GetBool

I don't think that would have any negative effects

[buoyant wasp]

so, you mentioned that you were re-running the rando logic on load, curious as to why that vs just reading from rnd.js?

[rain cedar]

That's not guaranteed to be accurate

Rerunning the seed is only like 2 seconds on the worst of computers (Ciplax)

It's near instant for me

[buoyant wasp]

my initial load using a NVMe Samsung 960 + i7 takes about 2-3 seconds

[rain cedar]

The initial load also has to load the XML file

[buoyant wasp]

ah

that's probably the real cost

xml deserialization is garbage slow compared to most stuff

[rain cedar]

Yeah, and it's like 1700 lines

Getting to be pretty massive

[leaden hedge]

the solution is to not deserialize it

[buoyant wasp]

not that i'm saying you have to, but perhaps might be worth looking at storing it as a protobuf or something

if it gets much bigger

[rain cedar]

Not super excited about rewriting the file but maybe

[buoyant wasp]

well, you wouldn't necessarily need to, could just keep the XML as is. the very, very first time it's loaded, you deserialize it and then turn it into something else like protobuf or a binary version of the class, and then store it on the local FS. every time after that it just checks for the existance of the already processed version and uses that instead.

the only time it'd regenerate the file is if the version changes

[rain cedar]

Alright, doesn't sound too bad

I could also start an async load of it when the game launches and wait for that to be completed on file load if it somehow isn't already done

[buoyant wasp]

that was my other thought to do it at game load rather than save load

much less likely to notice

even if it was synchronous instead, the player would just think it took an extra 1-2 seconds to load the game and probably not even notice

because there isn't any interaction that they expect to happen

[rain cedar]

On new game it loads the xml during the black screen loading the scene

Which nobody has complained about

[buoyant wasp]

ah, yeah

i've never even noticed that

so i think you only really notice with the save load because you click a button and everything just lags for a second. so it's the expectation that it would be near instant and then it not being so that makes it noticable. hiding the loads in places that people expect there to be a delay in works. (i think you said TC does GC when you take damage to hide the lag from it)

[rain cedar]

Yeah, they do

I should probably just randomize during the load always

Not just on new game

[buoyant wasp]

the only other thing i can think of would be to store the randomized values for the seed in the save folder and find some sort of thing in the save data that you can use to verify that user1.dat's save matches user1.rnd.dat's data. If there's some unique key that each save has that you could guarantee doesn't change. (because i'm guessing your issue with not doing that now is that if they clear the save, then start a new one or something, you might get an old randomized mapping)

[rain cedar]

Yeah, storing the randomization is the clear better option here

That also guarantees a save will work if the randomizer is updated

[buoyant wasp]

yup

it sounds like right now, if you were half way through a save, and updated the randomizer, the next time you loaded the save, it'd be....broken in many ways

[rain cedar]

I've never tried myself but yeah that's a safe assumption

[buoyant wasp]

question is....how do you ensure that a given save matches a given randomization. Looking through the json for playerdata, there doesn't appear to be anything in it that is unique

[rain cedar]

The solution is to have only one save file

It's been on my to-do list for a long time to add an easy way to track extra data in the save to the modding api

[buoyant wasp]

you mean store the data in the save (IE extend the save?)

[rain cedar]

Yeah

[buoyant wasp]

yeah, that's the best way, I just didn't know if it was feasible 😃

[rain cedar]

Bonfire and lightbringer already work that way

[buoyant wasp]

ah

yeah adding something like Save.ModData being a Dictionary<string, object> where the string is the mod's key and object is whatever it wants to store

so you could do ModHooks.ModSaveDataManager.Set("RandomizerMap", themapgoeshere);

[rain cedar]

Yeah, that's a good idea

[solemn rivet]

Bonfire mod updated

Patch notes: Better math

[rain cedar]

Very specific

[solemn rivet]

yeah

[hazy sentinel]

🤔

[rain cedar]

Next step to achieving balance: Fix duping

[solemn rivet]

I decided to show the "expected/average amount of hits resisted"

[hazy sentinel]

why would you fix duping

[solemn rivet]

instead of the probability of resisting after one hit

[rain cedar]

Just set timescale to 0 whenever inventory is up

Easy fix

[hazy sentinel]

also unfortunately i can't get infinite charm notches on this save because i got it assuming TC were competent at making the game consistent

[rain cedar]

You can respawn Grimm with debug mod

Then dupe it

[hazy sentinel]

but that's cheating

[buoyant wasp]

yeah and duping most definitely isn't

[rain cedar]

Yeah, duping that charm notch is obviously intended

That's why it's different from the others

[solemn rivet]

can you dupe the charm from the mushrooms?

[hazy sentinel]

can't dupe any of the other notches

[cold bluff]

what is going on with this noclip command

it's crazy af omg

[rain cedar]

That's not even new

Get with the times

[cold bluff]

hey man

that's what i'm doing

[rain cedar]

That's fair

[cold bluff]

your mod is much better than kein's

[rain cedar]

Thanks

[dapper folio]

noclip?

part of the debug mod?

[rain cedar]

Yes

[dapper folio]

wish I could use it with pop right now

[buoyant wasp]

you can! it'd be cheating, but that's not the point

[dapper folio]

i got teleported to crossroasd

so now Im gonna get back to where i was at least

never used debug mod before, how do i do stuff with it

[young walrus]

you use your mouse and click stuff

[dapper folio]

i hid menu, how do i get it back?

also, got back to spot

thank you debug

[rain cedar]

Got teleported to crossroads from path of pain?

I made a mod that fixes that

It's in the pins, didn't bother uploading to drive because I'm sure they'll fix it next patch

[young walrus]

press F1

hides/unhides everything

[dapper folio]

thanks

[amber plank]

im having the wierdest bug right now after installing and uninstalling an mod

[rain cedar]

How did you uninstall it?

[amber plank]

but getting rid of all files relating to the mod and replacing them with the backup i made

[rain cedar]

Yeah that should work

[amber plank]

i was wrong wasent i

[rain cedar]

What's the bug you're getting?

[amber plank]

well it was the lightbringer mod and i was smart enough to never go into a save i already had made a new one but when i uninstalled it and went into my main save

soul eater costs 2 charm notces and my pure nail does alot less damage

[rain cedar]

Guess you loaded it in lightbringer accidentally

I can fix your save if you send it here

[dapper folio]

yeah, lightbringer makes some changes that will hold over

[amber plank]

dam

[dapper folio]

only use it on a new save or if you have a backup

[amber plank]

i only use new save

but maybe i did it by accident and forgot

[dapper folio]

did you verify files?

[amber plank]

yea

[dapper folio]

yeah, accident my be the cause

[amber plank]

but yea i have pure nail and strenth charm but it takes 2 shots to kill green path enemys

the ones that explode

and i know for a fact that shouldent be the case

i didnt have a pure nail or the strenth charm on my other save but 1 shot thos eenemys there

[dapper folio]

how much damage is pure nail supposed to do anyway?

[rain cedar]

21

[amber plank]

i have strenth charm and pure nail but it takes 2 shots to kill exploding green path enemys

other save though

nope

its fine

[rain cedar]

Offer still stands to fix your save if you send it here

[amber plank]

one sec

i found it

Volatile Mosskin

is the enemy

15 hp

prue nail does 21 damage

i have strenth charm and pure nail but it takes 2 shots

i feels like its the default nail damage

no

the first upgraded nail

not pure nail not even clsoe

[dapper folio]

lightbringer reduces the base damage as a way to balance against the whole ranged attack thing

[amber plank]

yea

and some charms costs are off

wana know whats funny

ive beaten the hole game and the new dlcs with this dmaage down bug

LOL

[dapper folio]

wow, congrats

[amber plank]

i found out today

it was bugged

thought it was just charm costs

but when i made a new save and 1 shot an enemy but didnt on my main save with full nail and strenth charm

i was like

woo

wow

i dont know fi i should be upset at myself for not seeing it sooner or proud that i did all those hard bosses with a disadvantage

[dapper folio]

still, congrats. back to the salt grinder for me

[amber plank]

lol

[solemn rivet]

I'm a modder. I can use noclip in PoP, right?

Also, that last section is bullshit

[leaden hedge]

2 functions down, 1136 to go

[solemn rivet]

Balloon hp

[leaden hedge]

yes but I added, VAR = function( VAR OP VAR )

so you can actually see, Quarter HP = HP / 4

[timber gale]

Not sure if this is the right chat, but does anyone know if the debug mod still works for this version of hk? Or is there a toggle key im missing

[leaden hedge]

it works for 1.2.1.0

[timber gale]

Should it just be present when i enter a save, or do iI need to enable it in some way? ofc im a skrub so i probs just installed it wrong

[leaden hedge]

it'd be automatically active

[timber gale]

kewl lemme retry installing that then

[leaden hedge]

also @rain cedar I've been thinking of moving all the fsm stuff into a single class like so,

eventually when you can do everything via this, and its not gonna change every few days, could add it to modding api

[rain cedar]

Yeah, not a bad idea

[buoyant wasp]

- Sped up process for opening inventory -- hmmmm

[rain cedar]

Yeah, it's shit

Doesn't induce significant lag anymore

Can't consistently clip

[buoyant wasp]

lol

so it breaks some of the glitches eh?

[rain cedar]

Just one

[robust kiln]

does the randomizer mod works for CP or i have to get it through the old version?

[rain cedar]

It's on current

But not the public beta

[robust kiln]

ok thnx

[leaden hedge]

if anyone literally hates themselves good luck killing this

[young walrus]

what dis

[leaden hedge]

its a mod to nightmare king grimm

makes him harder

[wispy root]

Where do I put this?

[leaden hedge]

you need the api installed

then you just put in hollow_knight_Data/Managed/mods/

[rain cedar]

Looks like this doubles his hp and changes a bunch of state transitions

[wispy root]

ok

[rain cedar]

Not sure what that means for his AI

[leaden hedge]

try it

if someone beats this I'll be impressed and then make it harder

[rain cedar]

I think he should just spam spikes for the most part with this

Not sure what AD Pos and Slash Pos states would be

[leaden hedge]

well if you notice

FsmUtil.ChangeTransition(fsm, "Move Choice", "SPIKES", "Slash Pos");

FsmUtil.ChangeTransition(gfsm, "Move Choice", "FIREBATS", "Spike Attack");

these are affecting different FSMs on 2 different grimms

[rain cedar]

Oh, I see, you're making a grimm copy and changing that to spam spikes

So you've got spike spam as well as the normal one

[leaden hedge]

so there are spikes constantly spawning

[rain cedar]

Sounds fun

[leaden hedge]

ye

          FsmUtil.ChangeTransition(fsm, "Move Choice", "PILLARS", "AD Pos");
          FsmUtil.ChangeTransition(fsm, "Move Choice", "SPIKES", "Slash Pos");

this just prevents the normal grimm from either wasting his time

or doing pillars

and pillars is undodgeable afaik

[rain cedar]

You should probably check scene name in Update

So you don't mess with things that are tagged "Boss" that aren't NKG

[leaden hedge]

I could probably just do it in reset

[rain cedar]

Yeah, that works

[leaden hedge]

but yeah it will fuck with troupe master

"Grimm_Nightmare" right

[rain cedar]

Not sure

[leaden hedge]

you can pogo off the spikes for some reason too

not sure why considering you'd have no reason to do it normally

[rain cedar]

I hope they patch that

It's fucking annoying with shade soul

Can't fireball him during spikes because I get knocked back into them

[buoyant wasp]

<@&309837968875585540> - I'm looking at layouts for restreaming races of HK (primarily I think they have been trying to restream Randomizer races, but could apply to any of them). I'm wondering if people with actual skill in visual design could help (unlike myself who couldn't draw a straight line if my life dependent on it and am basically tone deaf from a design aesthetic perspective. ) I'd like to get a few different HK stylized layouts that are 1920x1080 designed for 2,3, or 4 players. Could start with a simple 4 person layout to get the feel right then move onto others. Thinking we'd have:

2 Person Layout - Equal size
3 Person Layout - Equal size, might be the same as a 4 person layout with some sort of thing in the 4th space
3 Person layout - 1 "featured" space, 2 smaller spaces (for if a player was doing something really difficult that we wanted to focus on)
4 Person layout - 1 features, 3 smaller

Ideally we'd have a place for the title of the thing (so is this a randomizer race, or a any%nmg, etc), places for the names of each runner. May have some space for some other (for ...something?)

[kindred nest]

Hummm, I'm reading this but I don't really watch streams, so all this still sounds pretty abstract. Do you have any concrete examples similar to what you're looking for?

[leaden hedge]

@buoyant wasp

[kindred nest]

Yeah, are you looking for frames for footage, or uh, backgrounds for timetables, or what?

[leaden hedge]

I believe he wants frames for a live stream

[buoyant wasp]

so, here's an example from metroid fusion:

or earthbound:

both of those of course are 4:3 aspect ratio because that's what the games are, HK would be 16:9. and of course those are 2 runner examples, vs 3 or 4 runners

[solemn rivet]

would you want timers for each runner?

[buoyant wasp]

eh, normally what they've done is just done a sub capture of the runner's stream that has the runner's timer in it

which is why the timers look different in all 4 examples

but we don't necessarily need to have it split out either if we don't want to

that said, it isn't a bad idea to have a space for it

[kindred nest]

Hmm, okay.

[heady tangle]

Is the bossrush mod still available?

[rain cedar]

Not for current patch

[heady tangle]

ic

[dapper folio]

if you revert back to 1.1.1.8 then it's available

[rain cedar]

Obviously it wouldn't have Grimm/Nightmare Grimm on it, though

[heady tangle]

but ofc it wouldnt work unless I reverted the game to 1.1.1.8 right?

[rain cedar]

Yeah

[heady tangle]

ic

ty

I havent even finished the game anyways

[heavy geyser]

does bossrush have grimm yet

[dapper folio]

no

[lucid vale]

Is there a mod where i can change my geo count??

[dapper folio]

Cheat Engine

or Debug Mod

[golden salmon]

What all stuff is in the Cut Content mod?

[dapper folio]

i forget, check the readme

[lucid vale]

how do i install the debug mod properly because there are 2 folders and were do i put both

[leaden hedge]

into the root hollow knight folder

[lucid vale]

one folder goes into the api folder but one stays in the root

if i did it correctly then how do i start up the debug menu?

[leaden hedge]

it'll automatically enabled when you load a save

[lucid vale]

ive loaded my save and nothing has happened

[leaden hedge]

ok did you install the modding api

[lucid vale]

yes

That's where my folder is

[leaden hedge]

I dunno

it works, so you've obviously installed something wrong, you've probably not installed the api

go check ModLog.txt

its in your save folder

[lucid vale]

where is my save folder?

is it the one in appdata?

[leaden hedge]

%appdata%/../locallow/team cherry

[lucid vale]

Trying to load mods
Loading assembly: hollow_knight_Data\Managed\Mods\DebugMod.dll
Trying to instantiate mod: DebugMod.DebugMod
Initializing debug mod
[DEBUG MOD] Could not find asset folder
Error: System.Collections.Generic.KeyNotFoundException: The given key was not present in the dictionary.
at System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[System.String,UnityEngine.Texture2D].get_Item (System.String key) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at DebugMod.InfoPanel.BuildMenu (UnityEngine.GameObject canvas) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at DebugMod.GUIController.BuildMenus () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at DebugMod.DebugMod.Initialize () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
at Modding.ModLoader.LoadMods () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
[DEBUG MOD] [DREAM GATE] File dreamgate.dat not found!

thats what was in my ModLog.txt

[leaden hedge]

well thats probably because you didn't read the instructions

to put the zip

into the root

see how the folder is next to the exe

[lucid vale]

ok

when i try to put the api files next to the exe it just puts them in the hollow_knight_data folder that is aldready there

[leaden hedge]

wow

almost as if thats intended

so you know where to put them

[lucid vale]

and now my game wont start

[buoyant wasp]

debug mod is literally the easiest mod available to install. there is nothing complicated about it. just copy the entire contents of the zip file into the root of the hollow knight directory. It puts all the folders and files where they belong automagically

[young walrus]

has to be Steam version to work

iirc

[rain cedar]

He got as far as the mod attempting to load images

So he's on the Steam version

[wispy root]

@leaden hedge

Easiest boss of my life

Fucking obs, fucked up the recording file

[leaden hedge]

nice

which version was this

[wispy root]

The one you gave me yesterday

[leaden hedge]

ah

check the gdrive it got updated

[wispy root]

sure

[robust kiln]

Theres a mod for a more difficult nk?

[leaden hedge]

yes

NGG

[robust kiln]

Nice

[leaden hedge]

0.0.32 is the latest version

[bleak robin]

Nightmare Grimm Grimm?

[robust kiln]

Ok thank you

[leaden hedge]

Nightmare God grimm

[bleak robin]

That makes more sense

[leaden hedge]

you beat it before trinomi though

but he was using the harder version

[bleak robin]

You should make it be like GPZ and just add more descriptive words

Beautiful valiant radiant sensual nightmare God grimm

[leaden hedge]

can't really make it much harder

its already pushing whats possible in game afaik

[solemn rivet]

how different is NGG?

[leaden hedge]

try it

[solemn rivet]

don't have the time rn

I'm at uni

[leaden hedge]

all his move recovery is buffed

spikes constantly spawn

after dashing he does uppercut

he always does the firebat teleport

spikes move differently to normal

[solemn rivet]

what about baloon

[leaden hedge]

its the same

pillar is removed

[solemn rivet]

those two are my most hated moves

should be ez

[leaden hedge]

pillar was removed because its impossible to dodge atm

[solemn rivet]

because of spikes, I assume?

[leaden hedge]

yes

you need to move left / right to dodge pillar

[solemn rivet]

yeah

[leaden hedge]

but you cant if theres spikes

next patch will add grimm lords

which makes you fight 2 at once for the last 25%

[solemn rivet]

also, what do you mean by uppercut after dash? You mean the dash after the "dropkick" dash?

[leaden hedge]

yep

[solemn rivet]

oh

nice

[leaden hedge]

so it goes dive -> dash -> uppercut

[solemn rivet]

nice

makes it a smaller window to pogo and hit him then

will try it later for sure

but first I have to consistently beat him no damage vanilla

[leaden hedge]

oh

and spikes do 2, 2, 4, 8 damage

at phase 1,2,3,4

[solemn rivet]

yikes

[leaden hedge]

so er

don't walk into the spikes

[solemn rivet]

thanks for the info!

[wispy root]

Well... I got to first puffer, but I see this is going to take a bit longer D:

[void tree]

[leaden hedge]

yep trinomi mentioned it was easy before

[leaden hedge]

@void tree @wispy root

after getting to final phase you have to fight 2 grimms at once

[void tree]

Are there still spikes during final phase?

[leaden hedge]

no

just 2 grimms

probably the hardest part is the balloon section

[rain cedar]

Wouldn't the game still see the fight as done after killing only the original grimm?

[leaden hedge]

heal gets reset

then checks if the sum of both hp < 5600

so you have to do 800 damage to them collectively

although I could make that 4800 so you've gotta do 800 to both

[wispy root]

Could you give the player full soul when entering the fight?

[leaden hedge]

yeah I guess

[wispy root]

the debug mod only fills the main soul pool D:

[leaden hedge]

graig said he'd try it on stream tomorrow

so that'll be fun

full soul on enter

[dapper folio]

updated pin to list NGG and the charm notch mod

[leaden hedge]

I think last phase is easier, so I might buff it a little, but its pretty hype having 2 on the screen at once

[buoyant wasp]

sounds brutal

😃

[leaden hedge]

@rain cedar theres a bug with nail damage in the debug ui

[buoyant wasp]

did the charm notch mod get updated to trigger the SetPlayerIntHook event?

I think that's the only thing i have left to fix in the tracker

[rain cedar]

It should, yeah

[leaden hedge]

for some reason
f str + nail4 = 32 < expected
f str + nail + fury = 32 instead of 56

[buoyant wasp]

cool

fstr+fury, now there's some ballsiness

[leaden hedge]

and it says 32 (flat 21, x1.0)
and 32 (flat 21, x1.75)

[rain cedar]

Look at the multiplier

[leaden hedge]

well one of them is wrong

[rain cedar]

21*1.5 = 31.5

32*1.75 = 56

[leaden hedge]

I know the maths

how come str updates real damage

but fury is just a multiplier

[rain cedar]

That's just how it works in game

Don't ask me

[leaden hedge]

surely it should 56 (21 x 2.75)

or 2.625 or whatever it is

[rain cedar]

I'm just reading the damageDealt int from the nail fsm

The multiplier is separate

I couldn't tell you why fs updates the damageDealt directly and fury is a multiplier

[leaden hedge]

fkn TC

can't keep anything consistent

[tidal flint]

what does Nightmare God Grimm do?

[young walrus]

eff you up

[ornate rivet]

Rape you, then kill you, then repeats the process 5 to 1000 times and mutilates you until you come back alive only to be killed again over and over

[tidal flint]

ooo kinky

I mean uhh

terrible

[ornate rivet]

I havent actually gotten to trying it so idk

[tidal flint]

so wait is Nightmare God Grimm like, instakill?

[ornate rivet]

Thats how much I know he does

[tidal flint]

wow I'd really rather die than ever play that

[young walrus]

play that and you will die

best of both worlds

[tidal flint]

hey yeah!

I can experience great pleasure, and then die!

that sounds like a great idea!

well, time to auto erotic asphyxiate myself!

[stiff bane]

is there a mod that shuts up salubra

please tell me there is

[young walrus]

don't need a mod

just alt+f4

shuts her right up

[rain cedar]

Or just buy what you want and leave

Not like you need to sit around listening to her for hours

[stiff bane]

i meant the blessing

when you sit on the bench

[young walrus]

don't sit at benches

[rain cedar]

You need to sit on the bench for like 10 seconds to fill your soul

Jeez, get over it

[tidal flint]

if it bothers you when you do that then don't do that

don't sit at benches

don't breathe

don't live

wanna join my cult?

[stiff bane]

but I just wanna chill

[buoyant wasp]

don't get the blessing, problem solved

[stiff bane]

whoops too late now i'm cursed

[buoyant wasp]

good thing there are 3 more save slots available

[stiff bane]

it's not like i'm gonna start a new save just for that

it's not that big of an issue

[buoyant wasp]

if you have salubra's you're basically done at this point anyway 😛

[stiff bane]

wouldn't this just take one small change to remove

i mean it's just one voice file or two

[buoyant wasp]

maybe, go decompile the dlls and find out 😃

[stiff bane]

well aren't you just very sarcastic

[rain cedar]

Nah you'd want to change this in the resource files

Just replace it with empty audio

[buoyant wasp]

it's monday, monday is extra salt day

[rain cedar]

If I'm gonna change any audio it'll be all the waterways crap

Salubra isn't even that bad

[stiff bane]

but the flukewarms don't follow you to literally everywhere

unlike a certain charm vendor

[rain cedar]

If by literally everywhere you mean benches and only if you sit at them for like 5 seconds then yes that's accurate

[stiff bane]

no, I sit down on em' for at least 5 minutes each time

[rain cedar]

Why?

[stiff bane]

change my charms, read journal entries, just chill and absorb the amazing atmosphere

[rain cedar]

You can do all of that except charms without being at a bench

[stiff bane]

but

i wanna sit on that bench ok

[rain cedar]

Just remove it from your save if it bothers you that much

[stiff bane]

i thought everyone was bothered by this

i guess i'm the only one

[buoyant wasp]

most people A: don't get that item, and B: don't sit at benches for extended periods of time

[stiff bane]

A: i'm a completionist B: i like to chill

and even if i'm not just sitting down i want some peace and quiet while I change the charms please

[rain cedar]

So remove it from your save

[stiff bane]

it's not like I know how

[rain cedar]

There's a save editor in the pinned messages but I'm not sure it can do that

[stiff bane]

i... guess i'll just remove the sound file

[rain cedar]

Good luck with that

[stiff bane]

(if I figure out how to extract because what the hell is this packaging)

[rain cedar]

Use unity studio

Also in the pinned messages

[hazy sentinel]

you can just s+q when you want to be at a bench for a while

[stiff bane]

wot?

[hazy sentinel]

salubra's blessing doesn't proc wgen loading into a bench

when*

[stiff bane]

what does that combination do?

[hazy sentinel]

what

[stiff bane]

s+q

[hazy sentinel]

sit at bench, quit to menu, load up save

[stiff bane]

oooh

[hazy sentinel]

you'll be on the bench w/o blessing active

[stiff bane]

thank you so much

[hazy sentinel]

might get tedious though

[stiff bane]

this is a really simple thing but it really helps

[hazy sentinel]

ye but you have to do that every time you sit at a bench so idk

[cold bluff]

no just every time you sit at a bench for 5 minutes

[hexed basalt]

so everytime he sits at a bench?

[young walrus]

[golden salmon]

Is Bonfire up to date?

[rain cedar]

Yes

[golden salmon]

Thanks

[golden salmon]

Downloading Bonfire makes the game crash on startup for me

Halp

[rain cedar]

You download the right one for your game version?

[golden salmon]

Um

I have no idea

Which one would that be?

[rain cedar]

I can't tell you which version you're using

[golden salmon]

The newest one

[rain cedar]

By newest do you mean the beta or the release patch?

[golden salmon]

The release patch

[rain cedar]

Alright

I'm gonna guess that you're probably on a mac, then

[golden salmon]

No

[rain cedar]

Then the mod should work for you

[hazy sentinel]

try starting HK directly from the .exe

[golden salmon]

That's what I did

[hazy sentinel]

🤔

did you also try starting w/ steam

[rain cedar]

It's this one that you need https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qUydUUcSkUakROM1UyZzZyYjg

[golden salmon]

I did not try starting with Steam

Doesn't that fuck everything over?

[hazy sentinel]

no

[rain cedar]

Shouldn't matter how you launch it

[buoyant wasp]

assuming that he's on the steam version, not the gog version (those are different right?)

[hazy sentinel]

i mean it's pretty clearly the steam version

otherwise why would they say "I did not try starting with Steam" with no further clarification that they're on DRM-free

[golden salmon]

I'm gonna go with "I installed the wrong one because I'm a dumbass"

Ay the one you linked worked

Thanks mate

[rain cedar]

Make sure your version in the main menu matches the version for the mod in the future

[golden salmon]

Alright

....Okay so something tells me I'm not supposed to have 50k Geo

[solemn rivet]

oh

shite

[hazy sentinel]

TEST BUILD

[solemn rivet]

shhhh

just take it a be quiet

[hazy sentinel]

also it's not like that makes leveling any easier when you can relic dupe

[solemn rivet]

this conversation never happened

^

I'm not even worried about geo cost anymore

I'm more worried about geo cost growth than the actual numbers

[golden salmon]

It will pain me to force myself to lose 50k Geo

But in the interest of science

I shall do it

[solemn rivet]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qUydUUcSkUakROM1UyZzZyYjg

just use it

or don't

spend it on charms, benches or smth

[golden salmon]

Nah mate I gotta do it legit

[hazy sentinel]

I'm willing to do things "legit"

[solemn rivet]

if you won't tell, then I'm not telling either

[hazy sentinel]

as in, all glitches are allowed but no external programs/cheat mods

[solemn rivet]

^

I live by that

[rain cedar]

You should fix relic duping to fuck with him

[hazy sentinel]

ban

[rain cedar]

It wouldn't be hard to do

Just tedious

[solemn rivet]

I remember how I felt like such a badass when I found out that you could get to Mawlek early on on my first playthrough. Same thing with getting to Hallownest's Crown without double jump

[rain cedar]

You need to have a bool for each relic in your moddata and modify the relic fsms on load to check against the bools

[solemn rivet]

irk

not worth it

I mean

you can farm for geo

[rain cedar]

Yeah but that's an intended mechanic

A boring as fuck one

But still intended

[solemn rivet]

dupe is also intended

[rain cedar]

If you say so

[solemn rivet]

jk

I honestly don't think it's worth it

[rain cedar]

It's really not

[golden salmon]

Meh I'm just gonna spend it on stuff from Iselda

[solemn rivet]

buy all pins

oh how much geo I wasted on those during my first playthrough

[hazy sentinel]

100% the game with no maps

[rain cedar]

You say that like it's hard to do

[solemn rivet]

I would only need map to find grimm flames, since I haven't memorized their locations

[rain cedar]

You only need to memorize one of each tier

You can dupe them

[solemn rivet]

oh

didn't know about that

[hazy sentinel]

flame dupes on steel soul when

[solemn rivet]

how do you dupe them?

[hazy sentinel]

die

[rain cedar]

Yeah, actually

Just die after killing it

Quitting and screen transition don't work

[solemn rivet]

intended mechanic

your shade becomes next flame confirmed

[rain cedar]

We only even know about this because it's in the 1.2.1.4 patch notes

Finally, something they did helped a speedrun

[solemn rivet]

- Removed duplicate charm notch

[buoyant wasp]

too bad they are patching it out now 😉

[rain cedar]

Yeah, but it being patched out is irrelevant until there's more content

[buoyant wasp]

sean, i thought you said that the corpse to summon the troupe could be hit with regular nail,

[solemn rivet]

that's how I summoned it

[buoyant obsidian]

Wasn't that fixed day 1?

[golden salmon]

Respec machine broke

[rain cedar]

Yeah, it was that way on 1.2.1.1

[solemn rivet]

what do you mean, Geld?

[rain cedar]

But there's some other bug with chests that makes that patch unusable (I think)

Never actually had a problem with chests

[golden salmon]

Okay so I kept exiting out and restarting the game to get a shit load of money and leveled to 99

[solemn rivet]

hahahahahaha

[golden salmon]

Then I respec'd and now levels cost 10k at level 1

[solemn rivet]

oh

thanks for that

[hazy sentinel]

intended mechanic

[solemn rivet]

let's leave it at that, yeah

many things broke on the transitiom from 1.1.1.8

many small things I didn't bother to check

[buoyant wasp]

was there a patch today? thought they were still betaing it

[hazy sentinel]

beta patch

[buoyant wasp]

ah, yeah, mickley just tried to summon without dreamnail, couldn't hit him

he's not on the beta since it's rando

[solemn rivet]

try this @golden salmon

[hazy sentinel]

also @golden salmon i thought you weren't going to cheat

[solemn rivet]

I was thinking that

but since he found a bug, I thought I'd let it slide

[golden salmon]

It's not cheating if it's an intended mechanic

[solemn rivet]

the link I sent above still does not work

but I found the error

fixing it

[hazy sentinel]

what error

[solemn rivet]

tested myself

there, fixed

[pale totem]

Is Blackmoth up to date?

[solemn rivet]

ehh

[golden salmon]

Thanks mate

[solemn rivet]

@rain cedar , how's compatibility with the modding API mods?

galbora, since there is a modding api version of blackmoth and I think the modding API is up-to-date...

try that and see if it works for you

[rain cedar]

That should work, yeah

[solemn rivet]

if it doesn't, I can try fixing it over the week

the methods used in blackmoth were not much affected, from what I can tell

[pale totem]

Alright lads. Anyone want to teach me how to use the API?

[solemn rivet]

just plug it into your installation folder

and same goes for the mods

there should be a hollow_knight_data inside the zip

just put that on the same folder as the hollow_knight.exe

[pale totem]

how do I get the API?

[solemn rivet]

gdrive

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_b9PFqx_PR9Um9MeFZMV21oWGs?usp=sharing

[pale totem]

1.2.1.0?

[hazy sentinel]

that's current version (make sure you're not playing on beta patch)

[pale totem]

I'm not

[hazy sentinel]

k then 1.2.1.0 should be the right one

[solemn rivet]

if you wanna double check, just open the game and check the bottom left corner of the menu screen

[pale totem]

yeah that's the right one

[solemn rivet]

okay

hope it works!

gotta go now

[pale totem]

So from square one: I have the thing from g drive downloaded. What do?

[solemn rivet]

unzip it

you should find a hollow_knight_data folder inside it

put that in the same folder as the game

same thing goes for the mod itself

[pale totem]

just kinda slap it in there?

[solemn rivet]

yup

[pale totem]

What about the data folder that currently exists?

[solemn rivet]

they should merge

and overwrite

don't worry, steam can verify and repair if you don't want to use mods anymore

[pale totem]

okay

so put the entire data folder in and fuse it with the other data folder?

[solemn rivet]

yeah

[pale totem]

okay

and then how does Blackmoth show up?

[solemn rivet]

you have to download the modding api version of blackmoth from the google drive

and do the same for it

[pale totem]

merge its data file with the existing merged data file?

[solemn rivet]

yes

[pale totem]

okay

thanks

[solemn rivet]

np

now I really gotta go

[pale totem]

final question though sorry

1.1.1.8 Blackmoth is okay?

[solemn rivet]

all modding api mods should work regardless of version

should

[pale totem]

okay

[solemn rivet]

if it doesn't, I'll fix it over the week

[pale totem]

looks like Ill find out

[solemn rivet]

but you have to download the modding api version of blackmoth

the usual version will NOT work

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_b9PFqx_PR9Vm52bDEwTG5HaEk this is the version that should work

[pale totem]

thank you

[buoyant wasp]

did the damage dealt by glowing womb to baulders increase?

cause i've now one shot 3 of them with a single womb guy without any other charm/buff

(in rando CP)

[rain cedar]

It's been that way

[buoyant wasp]

huh, interesting

[viral mica]

yo is there a way I can fight all the bosses again?

like some sort of save state loader

[dapper folio]

Boss Rush mod (1.1.1.8 only; use a patcher to downgrade)
Save file backups before each boss
Debug(?) can let you refight the dream bosses

[viral mica]

will it work with NKG?

oh only 1.1.1.8

okay

[dapper folio]

start up HK and in the main menu it'll tell you what version you're on in the bottom left corner (as well as the content packs you have)

go into the mod folder and each zip will tell you which version of hk it works with

if it doesn't and it's an API-supported mod, then go with the API's version

[buoyant wasp]

The debug mod can respawn all the bosses

as many times as you want

including NKG. If you want pain, there is also a NGG version (Nightmare God Grimm). It's.....something.

(it also has about 50 other features, but....)

@rain cedar - Was thinking that the logic precluded good items being behind dreamgate, just had a seed where isma's was there. (finally found CH down in shade cloak and finished). But yeah, was thinking something useless was always behind dreamgate.

[solemn rivet]

okay, so today I plan on doing a full playthrough (possibly 100%) of Bonfire Mod. This should help me get a better feel for balance, progression etc.

[broken fable]

@buoyant wasp it's not necessarily "uesless", but it's marked in the dependency graph as requiring every item that is required to win. https://github.com/MyEyes/RandomizerMod/blob/a7fa150c488856b34e3f894b227b6d8a0f9ac8a1/randomizer.xml#L279

did you need isma's tear to win on that seed?

dream gate, grubsong, etc are guaranteed to not be required; they aren't guaranteed to not be "good".

[leaden hedge]

you will never need ismas

as it fills the same role as crystal heart

[young walrus]

and CH is in the logic as "needed"

[broken fable]

@young walrus what do you mean "needed"? needed to win, or needed for dreamgate?

[young walrus]

needed to win

dream gate, dream wielder, and the two grub items are coded to not hold any important items

aka.... claw, dream nail, CH, dash, double jump, etc

[leaden hedge]

you can use ismas to win instead

but CH will always be avaliable

[young walrus]

well yeah.

exactly

[leaden hedge]

incase ismas is stuck somewhere

[young walrus]

which is fine, cuz CH is always available

somewhere

can still find isma's sooner

[broken fable]

that's a deficiency in the randomizer. there should be seeds possible where you need isma to win, and heart is stuck somewhere.

[young walrus]

there's been lots of seeds where we haven't found CH and used tear to win

[broken fable]

i don't believe the randomizer has any concept of winning, actually. i think it just wants you to get items.

[leaden hedge]

it does have a concept of winning

its coded around certain items being required to win

I guess we could add I trigger for A or B

[rain cedar]

The randomizer definitely doesn't check that you can win

Because that's a guarantee if every item is available

No point

[broken fable]

@leaden hedge i'm saying it's coded to give you items, not to allow you to win. like there's no entry for requirements to get to monomon.

[young walrus]

why would you need an explicit entry when the requirements are more or less "implied"

all the critical items are available to get

[leaden hedge]

there is a requirement to get to monomon, claw and crystal heart

thats all you need

[young walrus]

like sean said, why add something that checks win conditions when every item is available

or claw and ismas

that's it

[leaden hedge]

so it doesn't let those be hard to get

[broken fable]

we all agree there's currently no point in the randomizer knowing about winning. i would like to make the randomizer way smarter though, which would open the door to crazier randomizer ideas, like room transition randomization.

reorganizing the data would also avoid annoying updates like this: https://github.com/MyEyes/RandomizerMod/commit/a7fa150c488856b34e3f894b227b6d8a0f9ac8a1#diff-248b2eb751c94ead94948aed94f078b0R37

[rain cedar]

Room randomization would require a list of every room with requirements for getting from any gate to any other gate

I'm not gonna be the one to make that

[broken fable]

i'm currently trying to make a tool to make it easier to record that information. a tool where you can click around on a map. i wouldn't expect anyone to undertake writing all that down without some kind of aid.

[rain cedar]

Even with tools it's still gonna be tedious as fuck

[young walrus]

yeah. you'd have to map literally every room

[broken fable]

yep.

not arguing there.

but just imagine how awesome it would be to have to cross a white palace room to get to herra

[leaden hedge]

disorientingly so

[broken fable]

another crazy randomizer mode i'd like to make possible is grub locations and geo deposits being locations for items. that would require some weird modding to make that work, but i think it'd be interesting and fun.

[buoyant wasp]

in any case, Isma's should share the same logic as CH in terms of where it can't be. if CH can't be behind dreamgate, isma's shouldn't either. If it can be, then so should CH

do we have a running list somewhere of the all the stuff we've looked at actually doing for the current randomizer? in my head it's:

* Add Nail Skills to Pool
* Move Kingsoul out of WP and Queensoul into the pool.  One thought was to make it the combined version, then there would be literally nothing in WP.
* Possibly make Grubsong a viable location for a progression item (since 10 grubs early is fairly easy and it provides some good geo)
* Add Charm Notch Mod to Randomizer (seriously, it's awesome)
* Make Wayward compass OP with showing available paths in easy (maybe hard?)
* Add Pale Ore from either Nosk or Basin to the pool (but not both?)
* Possibly reduce the cost of lantern slot to something reasonable (1k?) then add it to the pool

[broken fable]

saying that grubsong requires shade cloak is kind of a hack. really, i think the randomizer should know what you need to win, and make sure that's possible without getting items from any of the "annoying" locations. so it should be possible for any item (except dream nail and claw, i think) to be in annoying locations, as long as the rest of the game is beatable without it.

my idea for latern cost is that we just say that buying that item requires getting to lemm. randomizer doesn't understand that kind of dependency yet, but that's just a C# problem.

[buoyant wasp]

eh, if lantern isn't in the pool

then 1800 is fine

cause you really will only get it if you go to lemm

[young walrus]

it's a nice to have

you don't need it

[buoyant wasp]

the only argument for reducing the cost down is if it is in the pool

so that you don't have something like mantis claw behind it

so, in pool = reduce the cost, out of pool = "leave it, it's fine".

[broken fable]

I think we should add to the main pool: nail arts, pale ores (grub, seer, coliseum would be "annoying" locations), mask shards (except sly; grey mourner, grub, seer would be "annoying" locations), vessel fragments (except sly; seer, fountain would be "annoying" locations), charm notches (except salubra; coliseum would be an "annoying" location), 3x simple keys, elegant key, love key, shopkeeper's key, city crest, king's brand, tram pass, lantern.

[buoyant wasp]

...no

[young walrus]

yeah.... we've talked about all oft his

this*

and decided no

the length of the rando is already pretty good

adding in ALL of that will make the rando run much longer

[buoyant wasp]

the stuff i listed other than grubsong (which was still undecided i think) and lantern (also undecided), is pretty much what most of the racers have more or less agreed on

cause it adds a small number of locations, but overall doesn't vastly increase the time

we talked about masks/notches/vessels and basically decided that it would just add a ton of extra time and provide no real improvement to the game

[young walrus]

we never really landed on anything with the pale ore. and the lantern change we decided to skip b/c the requirement for it to get into Peaks is gone now

and the notch mod was the answer to randomizing the notches

and it's amazing

we're all in agreement on nail arts and the kingsoul charms being next on the list

[broken fable]

wait. people agree on adding notch mod?

[buoyant wasp]

i think the pale ore was to add 1, but any more was pointless because the cost for any further upgrades on nail was too much

[young walrus]

and it's slow to go upgrade your nail anyways

[buoyant wasp]

notch mod is liked by several of the runners, a few said they didn't care either way and i think 1 or 2 said no

[solemn rivet]

Wouldn't it be easier to simply leave CH as it is and make it behave sorta like relics - CH has a 50% chance of being Isma's

[buoyant wasp]

we're not really talking about changing CH

i just said that Isma's should have the same logic as CH

in terms of it being an item that wouldn't be behind dreamgate

[young walrus]

it's hard to do it like that gradow b/c there's room requirement differences for isma's vs CH

[buoyant wasp]

^

[rain cedar]

If I have time today I'll work on randomizer some

Priority #1 for me is reworking the xml to have a single blacklist and proper and/or logic instead of requirement sets

[young walrus]

does the current mod work on 1.2.4?

or 2.1.4?