sk-lore

[rustic junco]

is that a silkpost

[muted lantern]

What cant be?

[rustic junco]

WHERE ARE THEY?

[muted lantern]

Blasted steps beast shard?

Its a fossil the files imply its a marrowmaw ancestor

[wanton charm]

hmm well evolutionarily both species are hard armored possibly rolling species with both small and big versions of the same species

[rustic junco]

IM SUCH A FOOL

I still dont know everything about silksong

[whole holly]

That’s deductive reasoning…

[muted lantern]

The statue has too much aura to be a silkpost

[wanton charm]

so its possible the bellbeast is a version of the species that priortized speed over curlability

[rustic junco]

Or Bell beast was bred by the citadel

[wanton charm]

oh right bc for transport curling is less useful than speed

which could also be why there were the curly guys in memoriam

[muted lantern]

Im still of the mind bell beasts were specially bred from local wildlife by the earlier citadel generations (the ones that made the bellveins) to pull carraiges Which are referenced by one pilgrim in the first bellway. Peoples main arguement against taht is bb is too weirdly shaped to put a harness on but like cmon.

[rustic junco]

And thus the Bell eater was the good guy after all

Bell beasts are invasive

[wanton charm]

blasphemy eira could never be invasive shes too amazing and cute

[whole holly]

Of course you dislike deductive reasoning…

[drifting whale]

Considering that was the reason how GMS was even able to haunt most of Pharloom so easily, no, not at all.

[wanton charm]

actually i was saying that isnt deductive but...

[muted lantern]

Considering their appearance being similar in appearance to groms and marrowmaws, being able to burrow and roll into a ball, i think maybe they are a crossbreed of those local fauna.

[marble oasis]

when does bb roll into a ball?

[wanton charm]

nono the marrowmaws and groms roll

wait nvm im stupid

[rustic junco]

groms hella dont

[whole holly]

It is, pale king thinking no cost too great can’t only apply to his kids

[fair breach]

What do you say to the fact that we see clear signs of free will and a genuinely fair social system in Hallownest (obviously not democratic, but not important)? We see shops, actual aristocracy, guards for the people rather than him, theatre, options to leave that people seem to reject, gardens, the fact that the dreamers sacrifice themselves for him and the unfaultering love and loyalty of the royal retainers. These are meaningful signs that his people care about him as a result of a well established system with functioning economy. If he just wanted power over all, there are much more efficient and selfish ways to go about that and I do not think PK would overlook that. He acts to save his people first and only flees when the infection proves too great a threat.

Sorry that took so long Nika.

[muted lantern]

the babies

[rustic junco]

Sorry but I just wont read that. Can't. Im not enough of a pale king patriot to do that.

[rustic junco]

That's not breaking bad tho.

[marble oasis]

That’s just a flip they can’t do that to move around

[wanton charm]

eira we need to cook

[fair breach]

My apologies XD XD, I see actual words are too much for Discord, that's fair.

[wanton charm]

its a really streamlined flip for babies tho

I SAW THAT BTK

[gentle aspen]

Enough with the random gifs/memes

[rustic junco]

wait yeah this is a serious chat isnt it

fair

[muted lantern]

Its more of a vestigial trait but they do very much do it before burrowing into the ground.

when yo ucall the beastlings

[fair breach]

ah frick did nika leave?

[muted lantern]

i doubt big beast can tho

[fair breach]

I spent so long typing that spiel

[marble oasis]

You have become powder

[whole holly]

Him being selfish and having positive effects aren’t mutually exclusive

[fair breach]

oh nvm nika lives lol

[fair breach]

I demonstrated positive intent.

[wanton charm]

except theres no positive effects to sponsoring art and music other than making citizens happier so

[muted lantern]

Nonetheless the more important point is the extreme visual similarities between bb and marrowmaw, especially the primal marrowmaw fossill, and the similarities to the grom

its obviously nothing confirmed but its an interesting thing to speculate about

[whole holly]

Sponsor?

[rustic junco]

well stalin also did that and he did it for propaganda thus yet again proves

my point

[fair breach]

Most of what he does to increase the populus' happiness does not seem to benefit him.

[wanton charm]

yknow the paintings, theatres, parks in the city...

[rustic junco]

PK bad

next question

[wanton charm]

that needs government sponsership

[muted lantern]

Especially as bb is paired with groms in the hunters journal, little gromling, grom, and then bell beast in sequence. very similar to how other creatures of varying size in the same species are placed in the hj

[drifting whale]

Nah, PK good

[muted lantern]

again not confirmation but a note to make

[whole holly]

He funded it or took part in some way?

[wanton charm]

pk bad in vessels good otherwise

[fair breach]

yep

[wanton charm]

zoning laws, permission to actually build...

[rustic junco]

well it did work out ahem ahem

so pk good always except in predicting

[wanton charm]

eventually

[drifting whale]

Maybe they're subspecies or something like that.

[muted lantern]

mawling next to marrowmaw, hardbone hopper and elder, skull scuttler, skullwing, skull brute, skull tyrant are all in sequence too.

[wanton charm]

nah grom is subspecies of bb bc bb is bigger

[muted lantern]

it is a pattern

[whole holly]

Allowing something and sponsoring or having positive effect is extremely different, but that shows your bias

[rustic junco]

I mean the government forces people to pay you an income when you work thus really, are you free from the government sponsorship? No? Well youre being controlled BUCKAROO

[muted lantern]

i assume its just something bred by the citadel from groms and/or marrowmaws for a specific purpose.

[wanton charm]

what how why having paintings is like a rich thing to do so

[rustic junco]

Thus PK is evil cause he made people live in bug capitalism

[wanton charm]

also bias what

[whole holly]

Or maybe you know population did that

[fair breach]

what would you prefer?

[rustic junco]

but then to combat that, he made the hollow knight, karl marx to undo his evil

[muted lantern]

Bb has traits from groms and marrowmaws. And looks very similar to the primal marrowmaw fossil. I think they all share a common ancestor at least in this guy.

[wanton charm]

anyways can we move on from the pk to like hornet and communism or smth

[rustic junco]

on a real note can we end this debate about PK

[wanton charm]

or to bell beast and marrowmaws

[muted lantern]

I chose the power move of not engaging with the pk debate as it always sucks

[rustic junco]

or to ants and hills

[whole holly]

Okay self-portraits were ordered by elite class most likely they working class did, otherwise what art are you referring to

[rustic junco]

cause really they dont have any ant hill

[muted lantern]

I think the big arena is probably their hill in the skarr tribe

its all underground anyway

the whole kingdom is

[rustic junco]

Well then Karmelita really ate everything huh

[wanton charm]

first of all theatres require sponsership from the government second of all can we move on geez

[rustic junco]

that glutton

[muted lantern]

she needed to increase to double her size to be a giant corpse in far fields

[wanton charm]

nah she fed it to the big skarr guard guys

and then ate the rest

[fair breach]

He permits a society where people can be wealthy and happy enough to be able to just order portraits and eat a lot. No absolutist dictator would allow such a seemingly large percent of the populus to behave in such a manner

[whole holly]

You are one responding? Also which theatre? How do we know Pale King had positive effects there?

[fair breach]

Nika I will happily keep discussing this.

[wanton charm]

oh well uh bye from the pk debate

[muted lantern]

Ok speculation/headcanon time, what species do you think dryya could be. do you think thats what she looks like or shes wearing armor?

[fair breach]

Pale king allows it to exist

[rustic junco]

Last Judge vs First Sinner, who will win?

[fair breach]

Sinner

[wanton charm]

hear me out drryaa is the same species as greyroot

[gentle aspen]

edible

[rustic junco]

So PK is evil after all?

[muted lantern]

I will not be hearing you out

[whole holly]

That also happens in feudalism, tyranny and so on that is not argument for something

[rustic junco]

Concluded.

[fair breach]

NO NO NO NO NO NO I NEVER SAID THAT XD XD XD

[rustic junco]

Tho I think Last judge would win against real first sinner

cause first sinner only has those dream realm moves

[wanton charm]

~~its half a city tho ~~uh prob first sinner

[whole holly]

That also happens in dictatorships, that’s not great argument

[wanton charm]

i thought first sinners rune stuff is cannon to irl

[rustic junco]

first sinner is just a scammer that became a scammer cause her whole bloodline is a scam

[wanton charm]

FR

[fair breach]

Yes but he can be a God if he wants. He has the power to stop this, he actually FOUNDS this kingdom, he can utterly shape how it works, why would he create such an altruistic model

[whole holly]

What?

[drifting whale]

She kinda looks similar to White Lady, but I don't think it's her child.

[rustic junco]

last judge is just the peak child soldier of the GMS/Weavers/Conductors, whoever is in control of the citadel

[fair breach]

Of the same root kin?

[wanton charm]

wait would the peak child soldier be lace

[muted lantern]

I think she just wears armor that resembles her queen. She seems to be the ladies personal guard

[rustic junco]

no, too rowdy

[whole holly]

Inaction or not interfering is not kind or altruistic behavior

[rustic junco]

but last judge? WAWA, she will serve, she is chosen after all

[fair breach]

He creates it and if he was truly selfish would not permit that system.

[whole holly]

1. Did he build or fund the art? 2. That’s not what selfishness mean, indifference and selfishness is not mutually exclusive

[edgy nebula]

last judge notably isnt a child nor a soldier

[fair breach]

Ok ok, let me address this one at a time, give me a minute.

[wanton charm]

selfishness: the quality or state of being selfish : a concern for one's own welfare or advantage at the expense of or in disregard of others : excessive interest in oneself

[drifting whale]

I mean more because of the head.

[whole holly]

And?

[muted lantern]

What I'm saying is the helmet may be designed to resemble the shape of white lady, not actually be the shape of the head beneath.

[wanton charm]

no thats just the definition

[whole holly]

So?

[wanton charm]

im just trying to be helpful geez

[blissful harbor]

what makes you think dryya is wearing a helmet

[whole holly]

Sure

[wanton charm]

tf you mean sure what else would pasting the definition of selfishness do

[drifting whale]

Could be a helmet, could be her head. Idk, the mask concept in Hollow Knight is confusing.

[whole holly]

I thought you were making point why are you being hostile?

[wanton charm]

bc you were being sarcastic for some reason

[whole holly]

What?

[muted lantern]

We talking speculation about what species she is, not like hard evidence. I think it's more likely that she's wearing stylized armor based on the appearance of who she's tasked to protect rather than coincidentally looking like her master.

[wanton charm]

nvm

[whole holly]

Weren’t you asking to move on? Why do you keep replying?

[wanton charm]

never mind...

[fair breach]

Under your paradigm where PK is truly selfish and just wants absolute rule as a despotic God-King, there is no real reason that PK would grant intelligence to bugs, then proceed to establish an economic system that hugely benefits these bugs by facilitating art, theatre, singing, astronomy, technology, and more, for what? To progress these bugs. Now we come to something called prediction-based paradigm testing. Under your paradigm the existing state should not reasonably be predicted by any person. However, under my paradigm where PK wants to advance all bugs' intellects, understanding, knowledge and state of living, this is not only possible but quite likely. Under this testing system, anything that should predictably lead to accurate results to the observable state is more probable.

There you go Nika XD

[muted lantern]

This conversation sucks so bad

[fair breach]

Also Nika and Average Arctic Fox, please stop with the aggresive... undertones.

[muted lantern]

I like to think dryya is a pretty normal looking bug who's just wearing armor.

[whole holly]

Okay those are false assumptions and unfounded somewhat dissonant

[fair breach]

You don't have to remain if you're not enjoying yourself 😄

[fair breach]

Please tell me how. i disagree.

[edgy nebula]

what is nika's proof for pk being a selfish despot

[whole holly]

All of those were in Soviet Union, that’s not argument for something

[muted lantern]

I'm just not engaging with the convo, I'm talking about other lore stuff

[drifting whale]

One thing that I noticed is that in memory Verdania, we learn that the residents of this kingdom know how to fight even from on. What if one of them didn't knew how to? Will it be helped or just discarded? Is the monarchy of green Prince actually just a Dictatorship in disguise?

[blissful harbor]

eh she’s not really normal looking
unless she’s wearing like full body armor and a skin tight suit, her skin is white which is very unusual for a normal bug

[edgy nebula]

it's never brought up so we dont really know, it's likely most of them are just trained warriors like shakra's tribe

[whole holly]

Seriously how is that argument

[edgy nebula]

we certainly dont get any mention of them executing weaklings like khann, just killing outsiders

[gentle aspen]

that’s both not true and a horrible equation to make

[whole holly]

Pulling bugs under thrall, for eternal kingdom at any cost including infanticide

[blissful harbor]

actually i think all white skinned bugs have some kind of specialness to them
zemer is tied to the everblooms
pale beings i don’t even have to say
Dryya is in there somewhere i’m sure

[rustic junco]

Was brainwashed from the age of a child

to be a judge

[fair breach]

The reason that you cannot compare hallownest to real-world civilisations is that PK has absolute control. He does not have to allow these to exist, he can presumably just annihilate them and he founded the whole sentience of bugs in that region, whereas all modern civilisations are ruled by humans, not gods, who cannot just annihilate all pleasure activities. We do see closer to this in NK at the moment.

[drifting whale]

The hunter journal says that they know how to fight right after birth, with proof that when you go to their nest, babies will pop out of the eggs and immediately attack you.

[whole holly]

How so? It is true, they had singing too

[wanton charm]

oh sorry

[gentle aspen]

because it’s a false equivalence
they had sanctions and secret police that cracked down on anti-soviet sentimets

[fair breach]

You cannot make comparisons between these two civilisations, because of PK's potential powers

[fair breach]

Not really your fault but np

[whole holly]

There are totalitarian governments thoughts history they had art and singing

[gentle aspen]

it’s like saying stalin also had democratic principles because he allowed voting

[fair breach]

not ruled by gods

[muted lantern]

Are we comparing pk to Stalin now

[drifting whale]

Anyways, I'ma go to sleep now, see ya tomorrow.

[muted lantern]

I left for 1 minute

[whole holly]

That’s not mutually exclusive with TheLastJudge’s description

[fair breach]

gn

[rustic junco]

He already compared him to the other mustache guy like 3 hours ago but yeah

[gentle aspen]

it is

[wanton charm]

hmmm maybe... they are like that from birth or smth so they can fight right outta the egg

[edgy nebula]

didnt someone jokingly make this connection earlier? did they see the future

[wanton charm]

Good night!

[gentle aspen]

their explanation was about letting people freely express themselves

[rustic junco]

I SAID SO!

[whole holly]

Not reveled to ruling class and politics and economy though

[gentle aspen]

What you purport goes against that

[gentle aspen]

It definitely is

[wanton charm]

the people's communist republic of hallownest

[fair breach]

I'm sorry what?

[gentle aspen]

people tend to listen more when religion is involved

[whole holly]

In exceptions

[muted lantern]

I don't even think pk was that great of a guy but it's boring af to treat him some moustache twirling villain instead of a complicated and flawed character that tried to build something and be a good king but ultimately failed due to many factors.

[gentle aspen]

No man

[rustic junco]

So PK is the emperor of mankind?

[fair breach]

yeah not me. Religion is somewhat absurd to me sorry

[gentle aspen]

not “in exceptions”

[drifting whale]

That's what I also got, but if there was one who can't fight right after birth, like a 1 out of a 100, would he be helped or just discarded?

[wanton charm]

there was a reddit post depicting this i think

[whole holly]

Beacon was only thing that change Hallownest order, he still ruled like person

[gentle aspen]

like in history having the divine right to rule was a common thing and usually revolts were spurred by people believing rulers lost mandates of heaven or etc

[drifting whale]

Good night

[whole holly]

They didn’t state that though, they said benefit bugs

[rustic junco]

Please someone make a whole video out of these great messages they must forever be kept as examples of amazing debate

[gentle aspen]

He didn’t
he barely interacted with civilians or citizens and his palace was next to a pit of primordial soul

[fair breach]

I also gtg. Good chat Nika, bye guys

[gentle aspen]

and clearly he wasn’t treated as a person

[wanton charm]

bye judge

[rustic junco]

We will be there tomorrow.

[whole holly]

What does that change any analogy still stands

[gentle aspen]

tablets explicitly go “oh yeah he made hallownest the last and only kingdom and he pulled us from stupidity”

[wanton charm]

mabe not everyone...

[fair breach]

ooooh yay.... XDXDXD

ty btk

and fox

[edgy nebula]

the common bugs barely ever even saw pk, the differing sculptures and depictions of him in the game are proof of that

he's like a god who people argue over the appearance of more than a ruler

[whole holly]

That’s typical for monarchs

[whole holly]

Bye

[gentle aspen]

Yeah monarchs tend to live next to primordial darkness yup

[muted lantern]

Pk to me is a character that either gets sanded down to a perfect saint who did no wrong or literally the devil himself.

By the fandom

[whole holly]

You said didn’t interest with citizens and that’s what I mean, primordial darkness is also referred to as regrets which rulers tend to have as well

[foggy fractal]

hey guys

[whole holly]

To be honest I think he is deeply flawed, idk how they exclude infanticide

[whole holly]

Hey Andy

[muted lantern]

I find pk is interesting as a flawed god who tried to build something that would last forever, tried to be a good ruler, but due to the inherent hubris of trying to make something last forever it led him to make some terrible choices that didn't even manage to preserve his dream in the end.

[sinful nimbus]

PK is a saint

[wanton charm]

hello there

[sinful nimbus]

He's so goated his haters had to make up maggot slavery so they would have literally anything to slander him with

[edgy nebula]

whered that even come from

[foggy fractal]

intresting gambit

[edgy nebula]

i dont remember maggot slavery being in hk

[muted lantern]

Maggots were oppressed according to their hunters journal entry, but it's not said to be pks doing

[sinful nimbus]

Maggot entry says they were "generally looked down upon and forced to do menial labor" or something but interpreting that as slavery is weird imo

'generally' also implies it wasn't systemic

[edgy nebula]

i see

[whole holly]

What do you think being forced to do labor means ??

[sinful nimbus]

Those were the only jobs they could get

[wanton charm]

maybe its more of like chinese workers in us

where they werent accepted to many jobs so they had to do rail work

[muted lantern]

Sweat shops for maggots, this is where all the kings idols come from

[whole holly]

Convenient explanation

[muted lantern]

I can see where this is all going see you guys later

[gentle aspen]

Slabfly time?

[foggy fractal]

😨

[blazing venture]

Its high noon

[wanton charm]

well I should prob dip too bye

[wanton charm]

AH NO 🦊

[blazing venture]

We draw in 3..

2…

1…

[wanton charm]

crap

ok bye

[whole holly]

Me when my favorite saint king does infanticide:🫠🥀

Bye guys

[sinful nimbus]

He didn't fw infanticide all that much

[blazing venture]

Arghh you got me good

[foggy fractal]

hey guys

[blazing venture]

hey guy

[edgy nebula]

why are some characters in silksong just lightspeed

like shakra an green prince

[sinful nimbus]

Something something trolley problem its not like he was killing babies for fun

[foggy fractal]

nah they are beyond light speed they're using instant transmission

[blazing venture]

I’d say they’re going about Mach 2

[edgy nebula]

yeah it was an exaggeration

[foggy fractal]

also verdanirs

[blazing venture]

2x faster than the speed of sound aint bad

[edgy nebula]

im just curious cause no hk characte rwas ever that fast

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[blazing venture]

Hive knight

[sinful nimbus]

Mantises

[edgy nebula]

damn you got me there

[blazing venture]

he can basically teleport with his dashes

[sinful nimbus]

Mantis Lords basically teleport and Traitor Lord punches the ground so fast he creates walls of damaging wind

[blazing venture]

I wish hive knight was harder

[foggy fractal]

well nkg pv and radiance can all teleport

[blazing venture]

I think he just burrows so hard it causes shockwaves

[blazing venture]

Yeah but thats teleporting

[sinful nimbus]

Wind is cooler

[blazing venture]

Not actual speed

[sinful nimbus]

Pteras also use wind

[edgy nebula]

i think people dont bring up the fact that green prince is constantly aurafarming during his bossfight actually

he can go shakra speeds and yet he doesnt

[blazing venture]

He can spin very fast not move very fast

[edgy nebula]

he can move very fast

[muted lantern]

He's grooving his audience needs to see his moves

[edgy nebula]

he shakra-esque teleports during the start of the fight

[blazing venture]

I bet that one dash winded him and made him slow for the rest of the fight

Mf should’ve saved his energy smh

[muted lantern]

I imagine the super speed is just a species thing, some bugs can move in really quick bursts of speed or crazy fast and long jumps.

[blazing venture]

Yes

[sinful nimbus]

Quirrel only has bursts of slowness

High endurance

Fastest character in the game

My goat

[edgy nebula]

oh right lace also goes really fast, during that one sphere slash attack

[muted lantern]

Quirrel has bursts of dying off screen

[blazing venture]

Quirrel is very fast its just that he gets tired easily

[foggy fractal]

Quirrel is unc

[blazing venture]

What about hive knight

[sinful nimbus]

Not in Uumuu

[muted lantern]

She can also jump very high

[sinful nimbus]

Hive Knight does the same thing but not as much which is less impressive

[edgy nebula]

to be fair multiple characters can jump really high

[blazing venture]

Dude hes literally exhausted after the fight. Hive knight fights for his queen till the very end.

[blazing venture]

For example: Lace

[sinful nimbus]

He's exhausted because he took off his mask

[blazing venture]

He was exhausted whilst he had it on too

[edgy nebula]

oh right seth also goes fast, so many speedsters in silksong

alitas aswell, forgot about those

[blazing venture]

Yes seth is how i imagined how a fight against quirrel would go (minus the shield)

[sinful nimbus]

He's literally just doing his normal idle animation

My goat would never tire so easily

[blazing venture]

Your goat literally says hes tired

[sinful nimbus]

He only collapses to the ground when he returns to his real age after taking off the mask

[spark valve]

collapse is a strong word he's just sitting when we wake up

[sinful nimbus]

when bro

[muted lantern]

Your goat dies off camera, even garmond gets more respect.

[sinful nimbus]

"respect" Garmond's story is garbage bro

he does nothing and gets killed for shock value

[sinful nimbus]

No after Monomon reforms he collapses

[blazing venture]

Garmond is way more better written than Quirrel. Quirrel glazers needs to wake up into reality

[edgy nebula]

quirrel only feels his age after he takes off his mask

[sinful nimbus]

Agendaposting

[edgy nebula]

"Be on your journey then, and allow me rest a time. With the deed complete, I begin to feel my age."

[sinful nimbus]

Garmond turns into a tumblr OC bro

[muted lantern]

Boss I was joking....

[blazing venture]

Fair enough

[edgy nebula]

he isnt even tired he just knows hes an unc

[blazing venture]

imbeingdeadserious

[sinful nimbus]

Seth is a close second to Quirrel

Both regular joes who happen to be weirdly strong

[muted lantern]

I like garmond and quirrel

It is funny that they give garmond so much of a more dramatic death

[sinful nimbus]

Quirrel ain't about the drama or sadness tbf

[muted lantern]

But I thought it was good. I was attached to garm, he was funny

[blazing venture]

“hi there, look at this egg”
“hi there, look at these mantises”
“upgrade your sword”
“Nice hot spring”
“cool city”
“lets kill ts jellyfish”
“Man im dead”
Quirrel in a nutshell
“Hey there look at my pet”
“Hey there im fighting”
“Hey there”
“Man im dead”
Garmond in a nutshell

[sinful nimbus]

Where's the queen's station interaction

Chill asf

[blazing venture]

upgrade your sword

[sinful nimbus]

I thought that was in fungal wastes

Man what happened to Zaza

[blazing venture]

Zaza smoked on zaza

[sinful nimbus]

"The brains of the pair" ???

[blissful harbor]

he says thst in fungal wastes right

[blazing venture]

I remember him saying it in queens too

[sinful nimbus]

Quirrel was all about the transient moments where you marvel at the world around you what did G&Z do

Cheap imitations

[muted lantern]

Don't really think garm was ever meant to be a quirrel standin

[blazing venture]

myla in a nutshell
“Mhhhm bury my father and mother. Oh hi there. Dig with me”
“mhmmmhm oo im high asf”
“Im gonna fucking kill you”

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but he was brought up

[muted lantern]

Honestly Shakra plays the role as a mix of quirrel and cornifer in the game mostly

[blazing venture]

I think Shakra is just her own character

I cant really compare her to anyone except cornifer (cuz they just sell maps)

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong rarely does HK stand-ins tbh

[muted lantern]

That doesn't contradict with anything I just said. A character can fill a narrative role and still be a unique character

[blazing venture]

I think thats a good thing

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[blissful harbor]

it is but it means we have no hornet zote equivalent and it’s a tragedy

[muted lantern]

Sherma is like Myla if she was a proper character and didn't die

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is a bit like Zote herself tbf

[blazing venture]

When i 1st found garmond i thought he was gonna be like Zote

[blazing venture]

Shes pretty polite when talking to others tho

And not very egoistical

[blissful harbor]

i did too but he ended up being a genuinely noble don quixote

[sinful nimbus]

Unlike Zote though she doesn't get the excuse of being mentally ill

She's a jerk of her own accord

[blazing venture]

How is Hornet like Zote

😭

[sinful nimbus]

They're both unlikeable vessels

[blazing venture]

What

[muted lantern]

Zote is void

Clearly

[blazing venture]

guys

What if

You might call me crazy

But

What if

[gentle aspen]

You right
Zote ain’t racist

[blazing venture]

Elderbug is void

[blazing venture]

😭

[blissful harbor]

he totally would be

[blazing venture]

who do you think he’d be racist to

[muted lantern]

No zote sees everyone as equally below him regardless of species

[blazing venture]

Plants?

Tiktik or Mossgrub whos the cuter harmless enemy

[muted lantern]

Grub

But neither are harmless

[blazing venture]

I personally think Tiktik

They’re just silly little white hedgehog thingies

That crawl on surfaces

Guys am i going insane or does fleatopia have the dung defender motif

[spark valve]

I think Zote’s too self absorbed to gaf

Not that narcissists can’t be racist but zote is like a step beyond

[muted lantern]

There are only two types of people in zotes world

Zote (Fearless, Sensual, Mysterious, Enchanting, Vigorous, Diligent, Overwhelming, Gorgeous, Passionate, Terrifying, Beautiful, Powerful.)

And not Zote.

[shy sorrel]

Are the clockwork dancers and the verdania guy related?

[spark valve]

The dancers are made with the soul of his lover

[muted lantern]

His husband offered himself to the citadel for peace, and they had his soul enslaved split between the cogwork dancers. Green prince wants to put them out of their misery and free his lovers soul.

Verdania was destroyed regardless, not sure if it was still by citadel directly or just by pollution or another reason.

Don't remember exactly

[shy sorrel]

Interesting

[midnight reef]

A random thought- do Silkflies produce heat?
We see Skarr huddle around these clear orbs with silkflies in them, much like hunters would a fire
The Far Fields are pretty bright, along with most of what we see of the Hunters March, so its a bit odd if they were only used for light
Sadly I broke the one here, but this is specifically the arena before swift step

oh, I reloaded the room and its fixed, cool

[muted lantern]

I've noticed that, but im not sure if they produce heat or are just a life source.

the main campfires we see in game are piles of flintstone

but mabye silkflies give off some ambient heat just not enough to cook

[glacial warren]

I mean knowing what Silkflies are that’s still incredibly morbid.

[muted lantern]

I mean yeah its essentially using peoples souls they somehow managed to lobotomize to work as fuel forever.

[glacial warren]

Basically just forcing these disembodied consciousnesses to imprisonment for eternity so you can have a light source.

[muted lantern]

Worst part is they are still in there.

cogworks needolin dialogue is... sobering

lobotomized but still there

like a fnaf animatronic...

lol

[forest rivet]

[glacial warren]

Suffering is fun.

Not to mention the Unravelled.

A whole conglomeration of those consciousnesses, possessing their old bodies to get back up and rip and tear until it is done.

[velvet trail]

bro 💀

[glacial warren]

And Hornet’s Journal notes implies the Unravelled essentially cannot be killed in a capacity that would matter. So long as there’s Silk, that creature will continue to haunt the Whiteward.

Like she fought it off enough to leave the pit for now, but it will at some point re-assemble and re-animate.

[velvet trail]

Thank you @stray fog , still really glad you like it ❤️

[edgy nebula]

well, silkflies do eventually die

[muted lantern]

Is there any cut content with additional sentinel corpses beyond the four we see? i saw someone saying there were seven sentinels but idk where they got that from

[graceful grail]

Im putting together the general direction of each Kingdom. I have reasoning behind these placements so ask me if you want for my reasons.

[graceful grail]

When??

[limpid summit]

Why do you think lands serene is that way

[graceful grail]

U mean everbloom location?? Just confirming

[foggy fractal]

Why do you think Steel City is that way

[graceful grail]

A. Because it is known of in both Hallownest and Pharloom.

2. Ze’mer got to hallownest so i dont think it would be farther than pharloom.

Three. Steel Servants have traveled there.

But thats as much info as i could find, please help if you have any info 😊

[edgy nebula]

we dont know why how or when they die, but they die

there's a dead silkfly in the marrow

[graceful grail]

Show

[graceful grail]

The only one i can think of that “died” is the one that freed Hornet.

And thats a very specific case

[edgy nebula]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q932z56SKvQ

[hallow merlin]

I thought they were souls.

[shell magnet]

Then couldn't it be in the place of the black barrens too?

[viscid ridge]

We see something similar in Hallownest aswell, i just think they huddle around it for light, not necessarily for warmth, but theres no way to say for certain. You also have to remember Far fields is already very hot, so i doubt they need heat

But silkflies could produce some kind of heat if they are made out of pure silk. I cant remember where, but somewhere in HK its explained that Soul is hot in some sense. But im not certain so don't take that as fact.

[midnight reef]

I feel like this type of thing is really grasping at straws

we know almost nothing about the position of the kingdoms relitive to eachother

Though, I will say there is absolutely no chance that the place the godseekers came from is on the other end of Pharloom from Hallownest

They'd have found Pharloom first and latched onto its gods

[marble oasis]

They burn don’t they?

[viscid ridge]

And we aren't even sure what the black barrens is. It might aswell be a name for the endless wastes between kingdoms

[midnight reef]

yeah

and we know from Silksong that the surface =/= the desolate wastes

which does line up with Leth's personal theory that Dirtmouth was just in a bigger cave

[viscid ridge]

I think the surface is part of the wastes, but not all desolate wastes are part of the surface.

[midnight reef]

I think thats how he framed saying that, at least

yea

[viscid ridge]

Yeah most definitely, i really like to think upper hallownest is in one giant cavern

Given the size and height difference

[midnight reef]

yeah

[midnight reef]

Dear fucking god

I didnt know the assent to the surface was that far

[viscid ridge]

Yeah its like the same height as pharloom

[midnight reef]

Was a cool platforming section, despite me loosing my mind a bit, but anyways

chances are that trying to "map" the world of Hollow Knight is entirely pointless

We can list places we know exist, but we have no reference for their location, theres space on the assent from Pharloom to have another 2 kingdoms, for all we know, the City of Steel is up there

[shell magnet]

The difference in height and size between pharloom and hallownest could just be chalked up to gameplay

[marble oasis]

I would have thought the abyss climb was longer than the surface climb tbh

[marble oasis]

Nah that’s all Forgehome

[viscid ridge]

Surprisingly not

[shell magnet]

Also there's no map of the surface so team cherry might've wanted to leave the height of the surface up to interpretation

[midnight reef]

didnt stop them from making the rooms

and those are very possible to translate into a map

[shell magnet]

Considering that hollow knight room sizes aren't really accurate

[viscid ridge]

I wonder if we will get to see forgehome, shakras tribe, and Garmonds village

[marble oasis]

doubt

[viscid ridge]

I just have no inclination of where the former 2 would fit on the world map

[midnight reef]

Shakras tribe is likely from Beyond Pharloom

so almost certainly not, maybe more members from it as we see in the Sea of Sorrow trailer with the implied new crest

[viscid ridge]

Isnt that crest coming from the body of an alchemist?

[midnight reef]

oh I guess

I thought it was the orbs like we see on Shakras master

but another look does seem like its the head of the alchemists we see

[shell magnet]

And it's all about lifeblood

[marble oasis]

Shakra’s tribe is from the outskirts of Pharloom

[viscid ridge]

One theory i have, is that garmond comes from an area in the sea, he looks very mollusk like. If his hat is an actual shell that is. But i also personally doubt the theory

[marble oasis]

Warrior cartographer of a tribe from Pharloom's edge. Her skills in battle could challenge the kingdom's best.

[midnight reef]

ah

My memory of alot of the lore isnt as good as I'd like it to be

[midnight reef]

I guess, and I know TC doesnt care about this type of stuff- but it'd be very very odd for Garmond to primarily be a mounted combatant when he came from an area with presumably little flat land

[shell magnet]

Does team cherry care about the terrain where cavalry is most effective though?

[midnight reef]

They dont- never forget that Herrah is a spider, and looks nothing like it

TC designs first, lore later

[shell magnet]

And that the citadel bugs were taking hornet to a swamp at the beginning of the game

[midnight reef]

I mean, the swamp that has easy access to a bellway

[shell magnet]

The one that is completely sealed off?

[viscid ridge]

I actually dont think they were heading to shellwood, they were standing on that bridge waiting for a cage from the blasted steps

To take hornet up

[midnight reef]

true

[shell magnet]

But they were walking past blasted steps no?

[viscid ridge]

They walked past the main entrance, but there is a massive system of lifts and cages in that large room that connects the blasted steps and moss grotto.

[midnight reef]

I mean... once again, case of design first, lore later

[viscid ridge]

Why?

[midnight reef]

Some of the really old concepts for Pharloom had the gate to the Citidel being on the other end of the bridge thats now between Blasted Steps and Shellwood

[shell magnet]

But that messed with their plans for act 1 probably

So they removed it

[midnight reef]

scratch that

[viscid ridge]

Not really, from the maps when the trailer came out, shellwood already connected that bridge. You can also see the roots and vines from shellwood in the trailer and intro

[midnight reef]

it was originally far more of a straight shot to Bellhart

from the 2017 sketch of the map

I dont know how long it takes Ari to do the art, but its entirely possible they started the trailer on the 2017 or 2018 version of the map

[viscid ridge]

Theres still a massive area between the bridge and bellhart tho

[viscid ridge]

But you also shouldn't be consulting this specific map, use the ones from the time the trailer came out

[midnight reef]

ugh, once again a bit sad that Weavenest Atla got cut down so much

Would've been cool to have the larger weavenest

[midnight reef]

thats not how art works

You dont start the trailer based on an idea your yet to have

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but the specific case shows a rough draft, use the more concrete maps from after they designed the layout more thoroughly

[true wadi]

Mildly funny how the left area went from “red choral” to “red coral”

[viscid ridge]

Hopefully it will get expanded again

[midnight reef]

yeahh'

Im holding out hope for more of Atla considering that the loading screen is a cut place of Atla

[viscid ridge]

That place in the loading screen isn't cut, its like the first room in every weavenest

[shell magnet]

I want to know what the "song eater" is

[viscid ridge]

Apparently it was the leech thing that spit purple goo, the one that got reused in the abyss

[shell magnet]

Interesting

[midnight reef]

thats long after the Song Eaters lair

thats from the Gloom, which predated "Shadow" which became Bilewater

Hence why its still internally refered to as "Gloom Beast"

[viscid ridge]

Song eater layer was just a early name for the gloom

[true wadi]

So song eater lair is an early version of the gloom, which is an early version of shadow, which is an early version of bilewater?

[midnight reef]

Its not though

its part of the "Needolin Spire"

[viscid ridge]

Its more clear in Weavenest Atla, but i dont have a screenshot of it

[midnight reef]

I guess?

thats Weave_04, from early 23?

[viscid ridge]

But its in the background of almost every weavenest entrance

[midnight reef]

you can see the full structure here

[midnight reef]

its in a few places of atla

none of them really like what we see in the loading screen

[viscid ridge]

It literally is though

[silver knot]

Were the three Pinstresses originally stilkin?

[dapper willow]

Now thats an interesting question

And if they were then it would make the citadel's actions even worse

[viscid ridge]

Most likely yes

[dapper willow]

Imagine that
They steal their knowledge
Kill their order
And they ruin their home too

[silver knot]

Would be cool going back in time and playing Bilewater as "Clearwater" instead, with a boss battle VS 3 pinstresses.

[silver knot]

Yeah, I think that's probably what happened aye

Killed them as soon as they copied their moveset into the automatons.

[dapper willow]

yeah thats a common sentiment
lots of people want to see the pharloom of the past
Even I thought it would be intersting to see what was going on pre GMS and pre weavers

[silver knot]

Yeah, especially since the reveal trailer seemed to show hints of what it would have been like. Never getting to explore coral canyon was super sad to me. And lost verdania, kinda felt artificial and constrained.

Coral Canyon, Clearwater, Ant Stronghold, all of Verdania

[dapper willow]

Mm

I'm more interested in the present day
Like the outskirts of pharloom
Where the pilgrims live before coming to their pilgrimage
Whats the steel city

The Land serene

[silver knot]

I'm guessing Sea of Sorrow will show the righthand side.

So you'll probably get some of your wish at least

Plus, I think I heard somewhere (cant remember where exactly) that Steel Assassin Sharpe and co, will still be added in a DLC, which hints that you'll get even more info about the steel creatures.

I would like to be able to explore the wastes on the lefthand side too.

Part of me wishes you could journey back across them to Hallownest.

[viscid ridge]

I want to see that one part in the intro with those massive fly creatures

[dapper willow]

Personaly I like that the games are separate and I wouldn't want them to lead back to hallownest
I don't think that would be a good decision

[silver knot]

What massive fly creatures?

[dapper willow]

the intro has them

like scene 2 maybe?

[silver knot]

You might be right, but it would be ultimate fan service to have a way to go back, only after you've completed silksong

[eternal timber]

Apparently, pilgrim live at the bottom

Cause yk

Depth

[dapper willow]

well yeah bone bottm and everything

but I don't think thats the only place they live at
it feels too small for that

[silver knot]

Bone bottom cant be the only place they come from yeah

[eternal timber]

Once again, depth

[silver knot]

It feels like there needs to be some kinda slum

[eternal timber]

We don't know how wide pharloom is

[silver knot]

I do wish moss grotto were larger and had more "ecosystem"

In fact, I generally wish silksong had more ecosystem in general

[dapper willow]

Silksong nature documentary when

[silver knot]

Lol, I'd totally watch that

[dapper willow]

all those idle animations give a lot of life to the game

[silver knot]

A comedic one, with a realistic AI simulated David Attenborough voice

[viscid ridge]

Theres a part of the intro where they walk past bugs that look like massive lumaflies or silkflies

[silver knot]

Oh I see, yeah, that looks like the wastes

[dapper willow]

wastes be everywhere

[dapper willow]

Hollow Knight kingdom builder game when

[dapper willow]

i love this schene btw

[viscid ridge]

Peak

[silver knot]

I do wish they'd actually had an ant stronghold. In the reveal trailer you can see what looks like a bridge and gate to a stronghold. Then fighting Karmelita seems like it's in an amphitheatre inside a stronghold.

Farfields and hunters march all felt a little disjointed to me

[dapper willow]

The ants don't have a home really

the most we get is act 3 far fields

[silver knot]

Perhaps not anymore, I think they once did though

Similar to how they replaced Coral Canyon with Sands of Karak

[viscid ridge]

The stronghold is still there, its just a little more minimalistic. The entirety of the upper part of far fields are littered with ant architecture. Its kinda like the mantisis in HK in that regard

Even lower far fields have ant storerooms and such

[silver knot]

It feels more like ruins to me, and disjointed.

It just doesn't give me that same feeling of a real society

[viscid ridge]

Its not ruins its just minimalistic wood structures

[silver knot]

Well, I can only speak to my own experience, but I felt it would have been cool to have any ant buildings or outposts be enemy hotspots to feel like actually invading a settlement, rather than just strolling on through. Like maybe an ant alarm system. Like one of them lets out a shriek then a few seconds later a group of them turn up or something like that.

Would have made it feel more like a real society, instead of static enemies

[dreamy onyx]

i would pay actual money to see this

[foggy merlin]

fr me too

[vast sapphire]

hottake : sea of sorrow MIGHT be outside of the blasted steps if yk what im talking about

[viscid ridge]

Wait for the curious archive ecology video to drop 🤣

[viscid ridge]

🤨🤨

[midnight reef]

its slighlty window

windy*

ignore that we litterally have the map section for the bay in the files

and that we have multiple references to a salty ocean on the right end of Bilewater

and the explicit kelp we see on the right edge of Bilewater, specifiically in Murglin and the room for Journey's End

[dense sigil]

What if the conductors were unknowingly making a god, throwing all those bodies down into Whiteward, letting them fester and amalgamate

just a theory tho

😄

[twin dragon]

What if the pilgrims unknowingly prayed to an eldritch deity that was sealed away for centuries

just a thought i don't really know man

[rancid oriole]

If hornet Is already a spider, then why does she need an item to climb into the walls btw?

[midnight reef]

shes not a spider, shes half spider, for one

that and the time she spent in the cage severely weakened her and sapped what power she had

[rancid oriole]

The pale rune..

[viscid ridge]

Its just a technique she forgot, we can see she can cling on walls in the first game. I dont think theirs anything inherent about the weavers being able to climb walls. And if it is, maybe that adaptation didn't pass down to her given she isn't a full weaver

[tacit steeple]

CAN someone explain the conductors war crimes?

[midnight reef]

...it only now clicked that the Ruined Chapel is built ontop of a mass grave site.

But anyways- Void is often characterized as the regrets of bugs, no?

Could lifeblood be similar, in some way?

[viscid ridge]

Capitalism

[whole holly]

has anyone watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OpM3TVq4cg

[viscid ridge]

Why?

[tacit steeple]

Fair

[whole holly]

it seems to me that Kingdoms are really rare in world of Hollow Knight and fall, settlements might be more common, since tribes tend to exist in convenient places

like serene lands and land of storms might have been settlements

City of Steel might be Kingdom like city-state

[rustic junco]

Is Verdania a part of Pharloom?

[twin dragon]

Its in pharloom territory

[viscid ridge]

The fact that i only now realize that when the Fourth Chorus readies to attack, you can actually see the silk that controls it between its fingers

[strange hazel]

what are your theories on what happens after weaver queen? i know we get a cutscene, but like what happens in pharloom more than one cutscene full of info?

[icy token]

My theory is that everything got destroyed similar to Act 3, but without the benefit of the queen dying

[viscid ridge]

Hornet probably rules pharloom herself

[midnight reef]

yeah, Hornet admits to the caretaker that part of her wants to bind GMS to herself, to control the bugs of Pharloom herself

and binding something as powerful as a god wouldnt have the result as binding a new crest, it'd fundementally change Hornet

[lone folio]

Grandmother hornet would rule pharloom for the rest of eternity

Doubt there is anyone who could stop her

Unless etv is cannon and THK somehow ends upp in pharloom

[last ruin]

this has probably been theorized a lot already, but i noticed something interesting with how the White Lady refers to the Everbloom. she calls it "the first light" and (paraphrasing) "the only means we possess to fight the void with which our family is forever linked).

that got me thinking, a lot of higher beings have some connection to light. all the pale beings literally glow, the nightmare heart is connected to fire, the radiance is the sun, etc.
then i realized, excluding the pale beings, the higher beings are all different colors. the nightmare heart is red, the radiance is orange/yellow, unn is green, lifeblood is blue , tormented trobbio is purple

so, i'm theorizing that the higher beings are based on the spectrum of light, hence why pale beings seem to be particularly special among them (since white light is all the colors together), and why they're connected to the void (darkness, the absence of all light). this would also explain why the void can just straight up kill higher beings when nothing else is shown to be able to, being darkness, it can absorb any and all light.

within this theory the everbloom being called "the first light" could be saying that it's related to/is the origin of higher beings (and potentially the source of everything beyond the void)

that also fits with the vessels' existence, as they're a combination of the pale beings and the void, like a yin yang thing

[strange hazel]

yeah but i was wondering like would she eventually settle down from the haunting, because she'd of course lash out on it at the start because of part of her wanting to take control, and lack of control over power, but would she eventually adjust to that and control it better? i was just wondering.

[silver knot]

Fun concept, I like it

[gentle aspen]

Hornet would be another GMS

[gentle aspen]

a.) nice mori jin pfp
b.) radiance is not the sun
c.) as far as we know not every higher being is tied to light
in fact, really only two ones currently are

[foggy fractal]

why would Hornet wanna become another GMS? is she stupid?

[foggy fractal]

pk and rad?

[last ruin]

The radiance takes the form of the sun then, same point. It’s constantly referred to as a light. And they aren’t all tied to it, but many are in some way connected. All the pale beings physically glow (plus they talk about the pale king’s light), the radiance is constantly called a light, the nightmare heart is associated with flames (which are a light source), lifeblood glows (seems to be connected to a higher being), the only one that doesn’t necessarily fit is Unn, which could just be because she’s weakened in the events of the game

[crimson patio]

Lol
Nightmare heart isnt a pale being

[last ruin]

Yeah

Neither is the radiance

That isn’t what I said

At all

[dreamy onyx]

She controls Pharloom herself. I don't know if she'd haunt the bugs or just use her power as Weaver Queen to influence them though.

[crimson patio]

I mean
Just because they glow doesn’t mean they are connected to light

[last ruin]

Would you consider a lightbulb not connected to light?

They’re light sources, that is itself a connection

[stable ice]

If kratt knows where all the lost fleas are, why doesn’t she just save them herself then bring them to fleatopia (after its been founded it and kratt has joined the caravan)

[last ruin]

Vog, not Kratt, and because she’s a bum I guess

[marsh crescent]

Guys if you really think about it the citadel is literally dubai

[jaunty fossil]

||did we kill first sinner||

[midnight reef]

yes

after you bind the First Sinner and get Rune Rage, she is dead

[jaunty fossil]

Damn but why they were cool

Aw

[spark valve]

No she was already dead

[cosmic walrus]

guys i have a random theory

actually nvm it's dumb

[mighty parcel]

Saw a theory that Relic Seeker Scrounge is related to the Vaultkeepers

They sure look the part

[midnight reef]

Right, First Sinner is a memory fight

[muted lantern]

same species at least

[craggy smelt]

I buy it

the pontiff holding the melody is much larger than Cardinius and has more limbs

so the species might grow more limbs as they age

or they havee different castes

I wonder if Scourge's bulb-like head is because of her body, or if it's all wrapped up cloth

[fresh fog]

i though it was hornets silk that brought her back to life

like in the middle of the bind, her silk brings the first sinner back to life

plus if she was already dead why is her snare still in affect?

[gloomy halo]

https://youtu.be/eRalMgXdtVc

I kind of agree with this
(Essay about Hornet’s identity in SS)

[muted lantern]

"Fixed Choruses in Underworks not playing their full Needolin text."

Something worth checking out in the new patch

if theres something we missed.

tho its probably already been datamined

[viscid ridge]

I doubt Hornet can do that, seems like something only GMS can do. And remember, Hornet is binding first sinner, so that silk is coming from her, not Hornet

[viscid ridge]

Do you mean the seal on her cage?

[fresh fog]

yeah

[viscid ridge]

Could just have been a way to subdue her when they first caught her

[fresh fog]

still wouldnt it have worn off if she was dead?

[limpid summit]

The snare wasn’t made by her

Oh wait that’s what you mean

It probably was just meant to be there forever rather than tied to her death

The black egg seal is unique in being tied to activity

[fresh fog]

but he never died

plus, the seal could be different, saying that its a different land

[limpid summit]

Well she was probably caged by the weavers

[fresh fog]

yeah, wouldn't weaver seals be different from Wyrms?

[viscid ridge]

The seal? I dont think so.

[viscid ridge]

Similar purposes but ultimately different it seems. Weaver seals are made from silk, while a lot of the seals in HK seem to be made from Pure Soul. Most Soul seals seem to be mainly used as shields, while silk seals can do all sorts of stuff like we see in game.

[fresh fog]

ahhh

i have been inlightend

[viscid ridge]

But its hard to definitely tell what seals are which in hk.

[fresh fog]

Personally I believe that, just like soul master, I believe that the king had mastered it and made seals with it

[viscid ridge]

But i personally believe a majority of the seals we see in HK are all silk seals based on their design, with the only one i think are a soul seal are some of the seals in black egg and around the kings brand

[viscid ridge]

Yeah definitely

[fresh fog]

oooo i like your idea

It fits, saying that you can see the king's sigil on it

[limpid summit]

Seals can also be essence based

Like PK’s WP seal and the seal NMH puts on Grimm

The soul seal on the AC member also has some weird black highlights so maybe they put void in seals too

[craggy smelt]

they put it in a charm, they put it in a cloak... why not

put it every damn where

[viscid ridge]

Yeah most definitely

[limpid summit]

That’s probably it right

[wicked seal]

Hi guys, wanted to see what everyone's opinion was on a theory I came up with. After defeating Shrine Guardian Seth, he falls into the water and then when meeting him again he seems to have his memories wiped. He remembers his title and continues to be a skilled warrior and acrobat (flee minigames). Similarly, Zote prances about precepts and boasts about his title. Rather than losing his memory completely like Seth, what if Zote lost his physical ability and became the coward he is in Hollow Knight. What if Zote lost his memories like Seth and WAS a warrior of great renown?

[cobalt coyote]

I think zote is just zote tho

[warm shadow]

i wish this was true 🙏

but if he was a true warrior he would have dignity

or maybe he still believes that he is still zote the great

and due to his injury his mind cannot remember things past the accident?

but that would be false tho cuz he remembers the knight

[whole holly]

do you guys think that there are void-related higher beings outside of lord of shades?

like Steel Masters possibly being like Lord of Shades

[craggy smelt]

Bardoon suggests there's never been anything like the Lord of Shades before (a strength before unseen)

(but what does he know)

I'm not ever sure the Steel Masters are necessarily higher beings

maybe an order of powerful entities though

[whole holly]

yeah, i am inclined to support you

[pale narwhal]

about wyrms as a species, somehow
even though theres been only one in hallownest

[whole holly]

but Higher Beings tend to be connected to some force or their variation of it (Soul, Essence, Void), they have significant control of it

[craggy smelt]

the lore tablets of the AC mentioned that they desired to become Shades
maybe some of them succeeded - the steel masters could be 'ancient shades'
hence them resembling the Knight and having 'minds other'

[whole holly]

i broadly agree with that interpretation, but part of why knight succeeded is because they were child of two pale beings

[whole holly]

i hope we find out what species Confessor Jiji and Steel Vassal Sula are, because they seem similar to each other and Shamans vaguely, they could be hermit crabs? crustaceans, arthropods? difficult to know

[marble oasis]

The Kingsmoulds are effectively Shades

[craggy smelt]

I hope Sula is okay

[whole holly]

i also agree with that, White Shell was mentioned as important part of their creation

[craggy smelt]

but I worry we're going to be introduced to Sharpe breaking their neck or something

[marble oasis]

Where

[whole holly]

A fly-like construct formed of white shell and a dark liquid interior., wingsmould's hunter's journal entry in hollow knight

[craggy smelt]

they're Void entities, I think they were created in a very different process

[whole holly]

it's weird that they can control the void, like shamans control soul, i wonder if there are non-HB related faction that can control essence

[craggy smelt]

I would certainly like more Essence lore

sadly lacking in Silksong currently

[marble oasis]

Soul is a bit different because only the HB related ones can produce enough to really work with on their own, but anyone can use it, whereas the Moths are the only ones who can really interact with Essence but it’s everywhere

[craggy smelt]

silk does seem to tap into Essence somewhat

(what can't it do)

what with it attaching to minds and memories and such

the Steel Society seems to be watching the kingdoms of pale beings, and can threaten even them with 'compression'
they also police usage of the Void and have harsh penalties for those who use it
like they're a balancing force between white and black - steel grey

I wonder if Essence might be a blind spot of theirs? a power they don't govern

they may not be aware of dreams the way they're aware of pale beings and the Void

[whole holly]

Soul is everywhere too, Soul Totems collect it from Air, Deep Focus charm draws it from Air

[marble oasis]

The only spell using factions we see that isn’t HB related (as far as we know) are the Snails and the Scholars and they need to kill people and laboriously drain their Soul to get it

[whole holly]

Snails can also draw it from Air, but they find extracting it from bugs easier and efficient process i guess

[marble oasis]

source

[whole holly]

i think Hollow Knight dialogue suggest Soul Being in the Air, plus Vengeful Spirit is literally created from thin Air by Snail Shaman

[marble oasis]

it’s created from soul??

[whole holly]

Soul which is sourced from thin Air, like Soul Totems and Deep Focus draws it from Air

[marble oasis]

deep focus doesn’t produce enough to actually give you soul and ancient civ was doing all kinds of bullshit only pk could replicate

[whole holly]

it still proves Soul is it the Air

[marble oasis]

I know that

[whole holly]

you were skeptical so, i thought i would clarify

[marble oasis]

Snails don’t use air soul is my point

[whole holly]

i mean they do when creating Vengeful Spirit at least

we see Soul been drawn in from Air to create Vengeful Spirit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erUthG6lzWs

[marble oasis]

That's the Snail using his own soul just like how TK conjures spells out of "thin air"

Also manifesting spells is different to casting

[whole holly]

proof? because i only see Soul Particles from Air concentrating into spell

[marble oasis]

desolate dive

[whole holly]

what about it?

[marble oasis]

it manifests from the soul master’s body

[whole holly]

i don't think that's valid counterevidence to one we directly witness from Snail Shaman

[autumn umbra]

Vessels can collect Soul bc they are Pale, right?

[exotic turret]

ye

[whole holly]

are we sure that Moss Druid is going to accelerate creation of new Heart of the Moss Lands?

[marble oasis]

I think that, but some are of the opinion that all the stew does is let her commune with a baby heart that already exists

[whole holly]

we can't interact with it, who is holder of the heart? pilgrims are no longer there, mossmir don't exhibit anything

maybe moss druid or cragglite

[marble oasis]

some great unseen moss mother

[whole holly]

true

it is somewhat weird that Team Cherry went in "Heart" direction considering that symbolism existing in Void Heart and Nightmare Heart, maybe Lifeblood Heart as well

and interesting

[maiden meteor]

Maybe the point is that there’s no real holder but nature itself just creates the heart

I feel like big Silksong story point is that people don’t need gods to thrive

Hornet straight up says that even after Karmelita’s death Far Fields might thrive again

If anything I feel like heart holders weren’t as much of a power source as hoarders of it

[edgy nebula]

hearts are created somehow yes, but how theyre made is ambiguous, however bugs do infact hold the hearts

[edgy nebula]

karmelita isnt a god so this point kinda falls flat

[midnight reef]

I dont think they're made intentionally

at least

But just develop as a bug holds power for an extended period of time?

[edgy nebula]

moss druid intentionally creates their own heart

[midnight reef]

they're cooking their brain on the Mossberry fumes

well, more they cooked their brain on the mossberry fumes

[half cobalt]

yo am comming back from a break, just wanted to know if there are any connection between zote and shellwood[location]?

[muted ember]

what do y'all think the lore is for Plasmium? is it related to lifeblood? what are the differences ?

also ZOTE does mention " the life ender if from shell wood" and also says to never trust your mother maybe its a coincidence but they both have gray in their names

[high ferry]

perhaps, knowing team cherry they wont ever give anything concrete to work with

[muted ember]

also are ZOTE and elderbug both vessels? they look like older vessels but after the true ending shouldn't all vessels go back to rest? we see the sibling do that but after everything even after beating the game elder bug and ZOTE are alive

[edgy nebula]

they arent

[muted ember]

but if that's true how do they talk? we never see any siblings talk besides hornet but both ZOTE and elderbug can

[edgy nebula]

theyre normal bugs that look like tk cause elderbug was made early in production and zote is intentionally a bastardization of tk

[drifting whale]

They're not Vessels. They may seem similar in color, but that's because of light emitted by the knight. When disabled, you can see they have both different colors and are not actually pale

[edgy nebula]

heavily implied to be the exact same substance

[muted ember]

oh

intresting

[drifting whale]

Yeah its the same, only difference is that they have different names

[muted ember]

ok maybe we will see more in sea of sorrow. what do you think ZOTE boat was supposed to be about story wise?

[drifting whale]

I mean that's just a fan game that maybe will not even be released, but from the trailer I would say its how Zote got into Hallownest.

[muted ember]

I looks like a cool fan game wish it came true

[whole holly]

Radiance's Description is Radiant Being, do you guys think there might be another Radiant Being like how there are multiple Pale Beings?

[limpid summit]

Maybe radiant beings but not Radiant Beings

We can call them “radiant things”

[heavy gyro]

When is she called a radiant being

[crystal marsh]

Godseekers iirc

[whole holly]

Moss Prophet

[crystal marsh]

and her

[whole holly]

wdym? are you making up new definition to already under defined category?

[crystal marsh]

no???

[whole holly]

they said radiant things

[whole holly]

what distinction does capitalization even make

[crystal marsh]

"radiant being" is a general descriptor, not a classification like "pale being"

[edgy nebula]

hiding here for a bit cause sk-discussion is getting a bit too shippy for my likes

also a huge slurfest for some reason

whats the topic

[whole holly]

how so? are you only saying that because of amount of times it is said?

[whole holly]

also radiant things is still newly made up regardless

[crystal marsh]

because of the contexts the term is used in being different than ones like "pale being"

[crystal marsh]

it is not a definition, it's a descriptor

[whole holly]

context being?

[crystal marsh]

sigh

[whole holly]

i am aware? i am asking when did radiant things become recognized descriptor

[whole holly]

in any case pale, blazing and radiant are descriptors, pale being just repeats often, but it is also described by hornet

[limpid summit]

Well if there’s pale things there must be radiant things

[whole holly]

Godseeker's also never say that as far as i am aware

[whole holly]

idk about this one AppleEgg

[edgy nebula]

i dont think radiant things exists purely because of the radiance's name

i dont think youd call a pale being fight "The Pale", that just doesnt make sense if radiant is the same thing as pale

[whole holly]

Pale Thing is Knight, that's one time word is used, Radiant Thing would be child of Radiant Being? that's too made up to take seriously

i wish HKDT allowed me to take Data from Silksong and search it completely to search specific words

[limpid summit]

Well pale thing is knight because it’s white

[whole holly]

so Pale Thing doesn't mean much, it is weird to make up Radiant Thing

[limpid summit]

Exactly

I’m glad we agree

[whole holly]

Pale in Pale King is descriptor, Radiance is different because it assumes she embodies Radiance herself, i don't think Radiant Beings are common but Radiance is both name and descriptor, i don't think that's too big of issue

[whole holly]

so what was this radiant things stuff?

[fresh badger]

What are you on

[fresh badger]

Oh radiance entry

[midnight reef]

not yet, Im pretty sure the Shellwood isnt alone in containing a form of Shellwood

would that mean that "Shellwood" is basically just bug for forest? yeah

[icy token]

It's because the forest contains a lot of Shellwood Tree

It's like when you call a forest full of birch trees Birch Forest

Radiant is a state of being, Radiance is her name, which she is named as because she looks radiant

[whole holly]

i think you are mostly right

[leaden cosmos]

so lads i had a stupid idea

but what if the fire bugs in the wisp thicket are bootlegging the grimm troupe?

[whole holly]

everybody has that idea

[leaden cosmos]

like think about it the sacrifice of one member to feed a giant figure, their obsession with fire and death, the cloaks

yeah i kinda got that while cookig

but its a neat idea

[whole holly]

they are similar

[leaden cosmos]

it always felt a bit weird how small wisp thicket was tbh

but chances are its just similar

the color of the fire is different enough

[glacial warren]

I think the Burning Bugs began their cult due to a desire for death. They actively want immolation and to be freed from this mortal coil. Once their deity, the Father of the Flame, is slain, the rest of the Cult members all willingly self-destruct.

[edgy nebula]

wisp thicket is no doubt similar to the grimm troupe but we have no proof that theyre grimm related other than superficial similarities

[sturdy knot]

If red and fire
Then must be grim troupe

[rustic junco]

Anyways

Probably not

[manic dawn]

https://youtube.com/shorts/wac_ahvRSkc?si=q66dQuqKLQQiRGzp

Esto tiene más frames que toda la saga de One Punch Man

[lime berry]

So hear me out. All Hollow knight characters are immune to all damage, every single one except for if your landing on spikes. So the reason why Hornet was at 1 health was because of the cage, she was always at 1 health during her kidnapping.

[limpid summit]

<@&283547423706447872>

This better not be the new thing 💔

[stuck forum]

lore.

[lone folio]

Wdym "immune to all damage"

[crystal marsh]

this is blatantly wrong

[fresh badger]

They meant fall damage

I would say hornets 1hp is more a result of the cage binding

[lone folio]

Or she got beat upp before getting put in it

And then the cage restricted her from using her bind

[muted lantern]

Watching it rn. Great so far but it did get widows lore wrong. She's not a 1/4 weaver she's one of the first children

[fervent yacht]

I like to interpret it as both the Wisp Thicket bugs and the Grimm Troupe both tapping into the same underlying power and interpreting it in different ways. A sort of convergent evolution of cultures.

If memory serves, Flame (the stuff Grimm has us collecting for his quest) is to nightmares what Essence is to dreams. So it would make sense to me that, like Soul or Void, it's another magical system spanning the entire world of HK.

[drifting walrus]

So fire worship is the crabs of hollow knight

[gentle aspen]

I mean
scarlet flame is just concentrated nightmare essence
and the method of scarlet flame/wisp thicket flames seem to be entirely different

[edgy nebula]

yeah, nightmare essence also doesnt turn into evil sprites that try to kill you

[gentle aspen]

well

[marble oasis]

Scarlet flame is different to normal fire which is in several other places

[nocturne wraith]

I like to think there was a reason Hornet wanted to save Lace

She saw so much of Ghost in Lace. Ghost was born for a purpose, only to defy it later on and find their own way. Lace grew past the child GMS wanted her to be by denying her mother's wish, the same way Ghost defied all odds and took on the Radiance despite their purpose instead being to contain it.

Hornet witnessed Ghost's victory first hand, so by comparison, she knows how much potential Lace has with how similar their actions are

She wanted Lace to live a life that the Vessels and Ghost never had a chance to

[nocturne wraith]

But thats just my interpretation, I think I cooked with the parallel though

[limpid summit]

There’s some basis for that

She talks about how she’s seen others (vessels) who live despite their conception

Probably a little sympathy for THK too who she calls birth cursed

[spark valve]

They don’t smell bad so she feels bad for them

[limpid summit]

So TRUE

[muted lantern]

Yeah I think she sees a lot of ghost, thk, and maybe even her younger self in lace.

This one the dark shall not take heavily implies she sees saving lace as a redemption for what happened to the vessels

[tropic plover]

if you think about it there are a lot of parallels between pharloom's societal structure and parkour civilization

[edgy nebula]

in the citadel you always jump for the beef

[tropic plover]

in pharloom civilization, no humble pilgrim takes the 1-block vertical jump for the rosaries

[gloomy halo]

Yeah I noticed that

[grand basalt]

Hi

[marble oasis]

I don’t think so because the Void didn’t “take” the vessels the way it took Lace

“This one” as opposed to like, Lost Garmond and every other black threaded bug

[craggy smelt]

maybe not exactly the same, but I think in a broader sense Hornet might regard it all as family lost to the Void

and she feels she's had enough of that

[nocturne wraith]

I think by that they meant what the vessels had to go through

Crushed by abandonment for possibly decades because they made the mistake of loving their father

[nocturne wraith]

I think this pretty much sums it up perfectly

It's fanart but man is it fitting

[craggy smelt]

to say nothing of however many zillions of siblings were dumped into the Void with the attitude of 'at least one of these is bound to work'

[edgy nebula]

pv truly is tragic when you realize none of the vessels were truly hollow

they probably dwelled on the thought they were a failure cause of their love for their father

[nocturne wraith]

Pale King was looking for a hollow, soulless vessel to contain the radiance, which fed on hopes and ideas

If a vessel showed even an ounce of affection for their father, it's straight to hell they go

Imagine that pain 😭

[muted lantern]

I don't think she means literally the same event, but more of another person she cared about being taken by the void as ghost returns to the void in the end.

[nocturne wraith]

Hornet wanted to save Lace because she had the same behaviour Ghost did

Probably

Not behaviour but like

their actions are very similar

[muted lantern]

It is funny to consider ghost looks like a newborn the whole game

[marble oasis]

Yeah I was going to say I wonder if she thinks of TK’s death in either ending as being “taken”

Either killed and returned to the Void or subsumed by the Shade Lord

[muted lantern]

I think the dark taking is what she means by how many loved ones have been taken from her by it. Wl and pk taken by their grief of it, all her half siblings, her mother taken by the void plan, etc etc

[nocturne wraith]

Imagine being a cave diver that discovers the black egg hundreds of years after the events of the Sealed Vessel ending, and you just come across a baby thats chained up with orange juice leaking from its eyes

[muted lantern]

That's the start of a lot of horror movies. Evil ghost child.

[dreamy onyx]

theyre both hollow knights in different ways

[gray pendant]

Nuh uh I saved her because her lazy ass couldn't do it herself

[polar mural]

i wish there was a silk cloak like shade cloak in silksong

[muted lantern]

Sharpdart fills the role of dashing through foes

But this is the lore chat

[polar mural]

yea ik but its a bit less annoying to put || this|| all the time

than here

[muted lantern]

Sk discussion doesn't require spoiler tags

Probably a better spot if you aren't worried about spoilers

[polar mural]

alr tyhx

thx*

[viscid ridge]

This fanart is beautiful, but think the reason for why Hornet saved Lace can be best put by the Seamstress

"Well, move it, I say! Get to your fixing. We're all now suffering for the scale of your conflict... Maybe this time you act towards calmer conclusions, aye?"

[crystal marsh]

that's not the reason they failed

they failed because PK's assumptions about how Void worked were fundamentally wrong

[viscid ridge]

I think there is a true emptiness that can be achieved by the void, but i also think its not necessarily the thought of failure that ruined the Hk, just any type of emotion, just love for his father

[crystal marsh]

Radiance can exploit base instincts and even single celled organisms

[viscid ridge]

The plan probably would have worked if pale king was more neglectful 🤣

[crystal marsh]

no it isn't achievable, because Void assimilates Essence & can do things PK thought it couldn't do

[viscid ridge]

It assimilates essence?

[crystal marsh]

yes, as shown by the Moulds as well as TK itself

[viscid ridge]

Do you mean soul?

[crystal marsh]

no

[viscid ridge]

How so then?

[crystal marsh]

• the Moulds (which are built starting from Void) were infused with Essence when they were created, as shown by the White Palace workshop
• Vessels can absorb Essence, as shown by both how the Birthplace cutscene is accessed, and the fact that Radiance themselves is a being made of Essence

[viscid ridge]

How does the workshop show that?

Im just genuinely curious

[crystal marsh]

when you dream nail an object shaped like the innards of a Kingsmould, it has "...SERVE..." as its dream nail dialogue

[viscid ridge]

But why does that specifically equate to void can absorb essence? Theres more evidence that it was used to mix soul and void together

[heavy gyro]

Collector is purely void and has essence

[viscid ridge]

Im not arguing that some void creatures can have essance and dreamnail dialogue, im just wondering how that piece of evidence equates to void being able to absorb essence, like it does with soul?

[edgy nebula]

yes i know that

[forest rivet]

Why can't I join vcs

;-;

[craggy smelt]

the Love Key Bug's dream nail dialogue states 'too long spent together... we become as one...'
suggesting that the Collector (likely originally a Kingsmould) spent some time in proximity to the Love Key Bug, seemingly absorbing their thoughts via Essence
(and possibly their Soul as well, given the Collector physically resembles them somewhat)

the workshop mould was likely used to instill Essence into the Pale King's void beings to make them serve him, giving the Kingsmoulds their simple dream nail dialogue (defend, kill, etc.)

[gray pendant]

Wrong lore channel

[craggy smelt]

wow

the Hornet

[midnight reef]

I dont think this is the case, really

I think the Pale King just made a fundamental mistake when making the Vessels

The obvious answer, if the Radience broke the Hollow Knight by their love for the Pale King, what'd stop her from doing the same with anger at him being a shit father?

But the Pale King seemed to believe that Vessels were entirely mindless, much like the constructs he made and imposed a will upon

When just the Knight shows us thats false, as they are seen actively caring for the bugs they are around, even in simple acts like giving Elderbug a flower

and fuck, end of Silksong has the Knight saving Hornet, they were not needed to... if you believe the stupid godhome ending instead of the based Dream No More ending

thats a convo for another time but as far as I care the Shade Lord is the void unified under the will of the knight, meaning that the Shade Lord did exist for Dream No More, and only the ritual of godhome allowed it to fully manifest for some time

[autumn umbra]

I'm pretty sure they are infused with Soul not Essence. just look at the Wingsmould Silksong entry. literally says it there

[autumn umbra]

why Essence. it's only Soul. Void cares about Soul

[midnight reef]

Essence and soul are tied in odd ways

see- the dream nail giving you soul, despite being used to "Cut through the veil between dreams and waking."

[craggy smelt]

Yeah, but PK didn't want to just let Void do whatever it wanted, otherwise it would just consume Soul voraciously
he wanted Void harnessed to his will, doing what PK wanted
hence, instilling it with 'ideas' to affect its behavior, making it 'SERVE' him

[autumn umbra]

that feels just like a gameplay mechanic. i need more evidence than that. they seem pretty detached to me

[autumn umbra]

that's the point of the Soul. Soul gives Void its will. you don't need Essence for that