sk-lore

[edgy nebula]

it's a backpack that looks like a shell, methinks

[unborn nova]

She looks more like a mollusc than a crustacean to me.

[craggy smelt]

well yes, and that gives you a little critter with big eyestalks that carries around a removeable 'shell'

that's pretty hermit crabbish

[dark tartan]

ive missed you

[covert night]

only snails are the shamans

nuu is probably a hermit crab or something

[stray fog]

Nvm

[limpid summit]

Nuu is an amalgamation of a lot of things

Sort of like a baseline mollusk

And Vessels look like common bugs…

Only other creature with as much unique design features is Grimm

[blissful harbor]

kissing bug

[hidden crater]

https://tenor.com/view/stan-twitter-peter-griffin-family-guy-peter-griffin-crazy-peter-griffin-feral-gif-16561819022329521903

[ionic stump]

Nuu is something alright

[edgy nebula]

grimm is still one of the coolest characters to this day

hes such a funny mishmash of horror tropes it makes his fight really fun

[jade skiff]

Whats up with the Steel exclusive NPC, do they have a motive why they are in several kingdoms or what.

very important for waht im writing

[celest marsh]

pavo mentioned 😛

[robust wagon]

We don't know

[jade skiff]

damn it

[robust wagon]

They probably have been to multiple kingdoms tho, and likely aren't from Pharloom

[dire lynx]

Zi is gathering information about pharloom for her masters in the steel city

[jade skiff]

Does she say this on her dialouge?

[dire lynx]

Yes

[robust wagon]

Well she doesn't say they're from the city of steel

[robust wagon]

City of steel isn't mentioned

[jade skiff]

Eh, good enough

[dire lynx]

...Bug... Higher... It has come seeking... Zi is found... She is awoken.
Greetings, child of steel. I have known your type, in past. From your presence, it is clear this land too has caught the long gaze of your Masters.
Masters... Yes... For them, Zi observes... obedient... always...
And you... a creature in half... Pale It... Bug It... old... stubborn... alone... You too are observed.

[dire lynx]

Hornet calls her "Child of steel"

[craggy smelt]

Zi's purpose seems to be to observe (seer, etc.)
Jinn mentions she was born to trade

I'm only guessing here, but it's possible that Steel Assassin Sharpe's purpose is to assassinate

[dire lynx]

Sharpe seems different from Zi and Jinn though, so i wonder if his origin/creation process is different

[craggy smelt]

I have an utterly unfounded theory about that

[dire lynx]

Do share

[craggy smelt]

Zi talks about 'Compression' as a punishment for disobedience, something she's experienced herself
Compression may be what turns a bug into a Steelheart, making them more robotic and also more beholden to obeying their Masters - less likely to fail or disobey
the more they fail, they more they experience Compression, the more steel they become to ensure they don't fail again

so Sharpe has only a little armor because he's barely ever failed

he's badass, is basically what I'm saying

also just noticed this

Zi typically refers to herself in third person singular

Zi has sensed their movement... She knows their places of rest.

But when commenting on Compression, she switches to first person plural

...Compression... We have suffered it. We would never wish it upon another.

I wonder why...

[robust wagon]

But there isn't actually any connection between the city of steel and the steel people. The steel ppl never mention the city

[edgy nebula]

was khann the only heart we know of who actually had his power passed down?

or well, maybe green princes too

but nyleth and karmelita seem like the first of their line

[edgy nebula]

theyre from there, they just never bring it up because theyve never needed to

[dire lynx]

Karmelita is called the last queen of the ants

[robust wagon]

How do you know they're from there?

[muted lantern]

So does mossberry stew give you visions of the future?

[stray fog]

It is never explicitly stated, but the city of steel has gotta be related to steel masters

[robust wagon]

I mean not really :/

[cursive sinew]

Its called "logic". We dont really have other "steel" in either game

Also the only real cities in both games were under some higher leadership

[whole holly]

City of Steel might be possibly another name for home spear

[cursive sinew]

It makes sense that City of Steel would be under the supervision of the "masters"

[whole holly]

Citadel and City of Tears?

[cursive sinew]

Yes both of these

Citadel was made to contain GMS and originally started under the leadership of GMS' Weavers, City of Tears was the basically the capital of Hallownest

[whole holly]

yea, that is true

[unborn nova]

How do the fleas grow?

Like do they have a chance to be either like the humanoid fleas (Mooshka, Vog, Kratt, etc.) or the big flea?

[maiden meteor]

probably depends on education tbh

Like other fleas seemingly still follow flea caravan tradition so it means they must be at least somewhat sapient

[fresh badger]

I mean the memorium's whole thing was...modifying/breeding creatures to be massive

Theres no reason to think the Huge Flea is a natural progression for the fleas

I assume that as they grow they turn more humanoid like Mooshka

But for now theyre basically children

And the Huge Flea is a 6 ft tall child

[crude geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/fig-gif-26092737

[cunning wigeon]

Pantheon of pharloom better have an adult version of it. It’ll just take up half the screen

[limpid summit]

So is the huge flea the only native flea?

Or well flea that’s been around

[graceful grail]

I thought they didn’t recover because of the fall

[stray fog]

What about the warrior one

That gives you a map

That flea lives in its own house

So maybe it is native

[halcyon merlin]

vog is such a horrible person!

they know every flea location

but chooses not to help them

woah...

[cursive sinew]

Ngl if I was Vog I'd rob Mooshka instead of Hornet

He'd be more desperate

You could literally sell him 1 location for 200 rosaries and he'd buy it

[forest topaz]

something im confused about with skong lore is who imprisoned first sinner

[halcyon merlin]

i don't think that's too important

but well

it probably was just people devoted to pharloom maybe

to gms

[unborn nova]

The conductors or the weavers?

[halcyon merlin]

i could see the weavers being it but idk

[forest topaz]

I guess that also makes me wonder when the slab was created
if it existed when the weavers were still around then it would make sense that other weavers did it because I cant really see anyone else doing it but im still not sure why the weavers would imprison her

[halcyon merlin]

it's like for example religion?

the weavers are devoted to gms and believe her

but first sinner knew it was all a lie

i don't really know how the weavers were before they were trying to leave pharloom

[forest topaz]

well I think we do know that the weavers at some point wanted to be rid of grand mother silk and devised plans to capture her

if im not mistaken the citadel was created by the weavers originally and its purpose is to contain gms

[astral trout]

yeah maybe the first sinner was imprisoned becuase she told the weavers were made from common bugs

and since the weavers believed themselves holy they were mad

[dire lynx]

The weavers locked her up for telling the common bug that they (weavers) were not divine

Thats the sin of 'apostacy' described in slab lore tablet

[forest topaz]

oh I see

thanks

[astral trout]

yeah apostacy means "the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief." so it could maaaaaybe be gms but its most likly the weaver theory

[whole marsh]

That’s more of a theory. But to be fair, there isn’t much to pinpoint who exactly locked her up, and for what reason

It’s kinda murky

[forest topaz]

it does make the most sense of anything ive heard or thought of

[plain gazelle]

first sinner stuff is my favorite chunk of the lore because there's actually a ton of details to go off of but it's still not super clear

[dire lynx]

The cage first sinner is locked inside has the symbol of the citadel on it, so it needs to have happenned after gms was sealed

[astral trout]

yeah it make her fun to theorise about

[whole marsh]

Please go off, I wana learn

[astral trout]

oh thats true i geuss

[forest topaz]

I cant see anyone locking up first sinner other than the weavers since the weavers left pharloom after giving it to the conductors

[whole marsh]

I wasn’t aware of that, that’s a really good piece of info

[astral trout]

not all of them immeadiatly but i dont think the conducters have motive to lock her up

[forest topaz]

except for widow but I dont think thats relevant

[whole marsh]

I personally dont think the conductors would be able to lock her up. She’s essentially a demigod

[forest topaz]

I mean the citadel bugs were able to capture hornet and other weavers

so they probably could have

[whole marsh]

It would either be GMS and/or other weavers who locked her up imo

[astral trout]

wasnt't that bugs under gms control though

[whole marsh]

Hmm I suppose that’s true

But First Sinner is full blooded and probably more powerful

Eh it could go either way I suppose

[forest topaz]

well the point is it was normal bugs who succeeded in the task
I believe they used runes to neutralize them if im not mistaken

[astral trout]

true but i wonder who made the runes

[dire lynx]

As you can see, the silk ball in a crook

[astral trout]

you would think if it was gms she would use runes more

[whole marsh]

Probably someone who FS trained

[astral trout]

then again the wardenflys also used them sooo

[forest topaz]

true yeah

are the runes made of silk im not sure how that works

[astral trout]

mybe the weavers made the runes for the wardenflies cages and they are just being used in the future

[dire lynx]

This is what i think

Weavers made the slab so they equipped their jailors with their own tech

[whole holly]

i am not sure either, there are runes and seals that are of different origins, but think Weavers somewhat popularized them, so it somewhat prompted for others to start using, even ones made of essence

[astral trout]

i wonder why FS couldnt break the runes

she was kinda the leading scientist of the stuff

[dire lynx]

Well we know the runes dispell weaver power

[astral trout]

you would think she would find a way to disable them

perhaps she didn't think her sis's would betray her

[dire lynx]

Full Chamber to the kingdom of the White Wyrm. Claim the Weaver, in half part. Last of their line. Sensed strong with Silk.

Resistance anticipated. Quell with rune cage

[whole holly]

there is many seals and runes, https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Seals

[astral trout]

last of their line is interesting

[forest topaz]

the only thing that saves hornet is an outside force she doesnt do anything herself that gets her out of the cage

tiny fly lands on it and it breaks the thing

[astral trout]

so either they don't know about the hallownest weavers

or they died

also why don't they cound widow

[dire lynx]

They all died, the only living weaver by the time hornet arrives in pharloom is widow

[plain gazelle]

Well in the camp of evidence that it was weavers there's the Citadel symbol, the text on her cage being written in the very distinctive Citadel style, the rune seals on the chains binding her (which I think very deliberately are supposed to parallel the Hollow Knight's chains) , and the fact that Weavers would presumably have freed her after they took power if it wasn't them.

Believing that she was imprisoned by GMS is more about fitting into the general circumstances. For one, First Sinner's actual dialogue is all about being mad at GMS, with no mention about her sisters betraying her or anything. It also would tie in really narratively well as the impetus for why the Weavers rebelled - First Sinner discovers the truth of their origin, weavers get mad, GMS imprisons their leader, the rest manage to trap her. Otherwise the Weavers just sort of decide to get rid of GMS one day.

in general I think Weaver theory fits better with the evidence but warps the story more, GMS theory fits the story better but you have to explain away more evidence

[astral trout]

do we have confirmation that the (maybe) infected one in hallownest died?

[dire lynx]

The weavers are mortals, widow only lives due to access to gms' silk which we know extenda life

[astral trout]

okay but how do we know it was long enough for them to die

there was mostly likly a time skip but we dont know how long (do we?)

[astral trout]

was gms powerful enough to trap FS while cookooned

[plain gazelle]

This is before we get into all the First Sinner = Atla stuff and everything to do with her memory/potential time powers which may or may not be relevant to who imprisoned her

[dire lynx]

Last words of the Weavers.

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

Last paragraph being the relevant one

[forest topaz]

so weavers are not the children of grand mother silk making them not actually higher beings right
hornet outliving other weavers is likely because she is actually the daughter of a higher being in part

[plain gazelle]

theoretically haunted bugs could have trapped her while she was cocooned? but she would hardly be the "First Sinner" if she was imprisoned that late in the timeline

[dire lynx]

Correct

[astral trout]

this was in pharloom so it was made by weavers who didn't flee yet, also couldn't it also mean we will wait as long as it takes even if we die to deafete gms

thats how i read it at least

[dire lynx]

The weavers who fled did so before gms was sealed

[forest topaz]

its stated in hollow knight that the weavers in hallownest left for their original home right

[astral trout]

they did?

[forest topaz]

im not really sure why they would do that

[astral trout]

ohhhhh right i forgot about that

[dire lynx]

Plea of a Weaver from the furthest edge of Pharloom.

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.

To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

They speak of being free of service, which was not the case by the prime of the citadel

[astral trout]

didn't they make the coocoon realize it would fail then flee?

[forest topaz]

well why would the citadel be controlled by the conductors if the weavers did not leave at some point
I find it hard to think that the normal bugs outlived the weavers?

[astral trout]

cuz they were in power for a while

[forest topaz]

something else I was thinking about is how bad of a reputation the weavers seem to have with the remaining residents of pharloom
no one speaks fondly of them

[dire lynx]

They didnt outlive them, the weavers cant reproduce so after generations of mortal bugs the weaver passed on the responsability. They say themselved that they believe the song will sustain forever in their last words for the conductors

[forest topaz]

true

well

herrah could reproduce

[dire lynx]

With the help of a pale being

Also, dosnt produce a full weaver

Because all are female

[forest topaz]

I believe its stated that reproduction is painful for weavers?
not outright stated that they are incapable of it
I might be misremembering though

[dire lynx]

They explicitly say they will die and wait

[forest topaz]

at some point the weavers were seen as divine entities so I wonder when this opinion changed

[dire lynx]

"My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task."
-Eva

[forest topaz]

near impossible
but I do see your point about all weavers being female so none of them could produce a full weaver offspring anyway

[plain gazelle]

i feel like no one talks about how hornet's response to that - "i know the curse well, for i am also its victim" - kind of implies that she tried to have kids at some point

[dire lynx]

We do know she had partners historically

(Side eye hornet x hiveknight)

[plain gazelle]

yeah adds an extra sad layer to that

[forest topaz]

she outlived all of them though

[plain gazelle]

couldn't have kids and outlived her partners

[graceful grail]

GMS silk orb is something that she likes doing? Or was its only purpose to imprison her?? Kuz hornet sees her chilling in it.

[dire lynx]

Probably a protective thing, like we see hornet do for her stain

[forest topaz]

I think grand mother silk was put to sleep in that cocoon by the weavers?
and by the time hornet reaches pharloom the trap is failing and she is beginning to awaken.
I think hornet challenging her is waking her up but idk

[dire lynx]

The weavers put her to sleep with a new magic song, but the cocoon seems her own doing

Whenever we learn of the weavers plans the silk ball isnt discussed or mentioned

[forest topaz]

silksong lore is really interesting
I wonder why or how grand mother silk would have done that
the symbol of the citadel depicts the silk ball so it was probably there for as long as she's been asleep if I had to guess

[plain gazelle]

I think it being the citadel symbol shows that it's not her natural state

and yeah it being a general defensive thing makes sense since she makes another one in the abyss to ward off the void

[dire lynx]

Its their symbol because they use it as the central resource of their religous nightmare

[limpid summit]

She’s probably not in the cocoon by choice in the cradle even towards the end of act 2

When we fight her she’s pretty weak

She’s still got some strength to regain

[forest topaz]

I wonder whats going on with the pocket dimensions you get sent to after receiving a silk heart
they seem to be reflections of the cradle and you hear her thoughts I think

[dire lynx]

You are peaking into gms' thoughts

[plain gazelle]

getting a glimpse of the silk hivemind

[dire lynx]

Yeas

[forest topaz]

I wonder what happened to the other weavers that were captured and why they were captured

[dire lynx]

Based on what we learn of the reasoning for hornets abduction, gms wants them for their silk

[plain gazelle]

i think they either died on the way back, or were bound by GMS and were too weak to improve her situation much

[dire lynx]

My beleif is that with their additional silk after enough she could immediatley get back to full strength, or beyond (see scrapped bad ending)

[forest topaz]

this is a very different question im a very scatterbrained person
but I wonder how the area shellwood is related to the material shellwood discussed in zotes hunters journal entry

[dire lynx]

Wood

Pretty sure the wooden stuff in hallownest was also called shellwod

[forest topaz]

I dont remember
but that would make sense

[plain gazelle]

if all wood in universe is called shellwood it does make the name of the area in silksong pretty funny

"we must travel through Wood"

[dire lynx]

I think its in the wanderers journal (the hk merch) wish i had a copy of it -_-

[forest topaz]

maybe shellwood comes from shellwood

?

hallownest doesnt really seem to acknowledge other kingdoms though

[dire lynx]

I want to beat zote over the head with one of collectors jars

[forest topaz]

did we really learn anything new about snail shamans in this game

[dire lynx]

They can pull stuff out of your memories

[forest topaz]

they have a fascination with the void

I dont think that was ever discussed or implied in hk

[limpid summit]

They always had a fascination with sources of power

But snail shaman in HK talks like his entire species has never seen void

I guess that just means Hallownest snail shamans though

[plain gazelle]

i mean there was some connection between snails and void in HK since you see their bodies explode into void-like black goo and upgrade your spells with void powers, twice

[forest topaz]

I mean their bodies are black and they are black particles its not necessarily void related

[plain gazelle]

though yeah the one in ancestral mound claims that they didn't look in the abyss for power, though that line isn't super specific

[plain gazelle]

no but the spell upgrades are definitely voidy

[forest topaz]

I think the snail shaman alive in hk implies that the spell melded with the knights essence or something like that

its been a long time since ive played hollow knight and actually read the dialogue

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Shade Soul

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

@starpengu used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Shade Soul

[sinful nimbus]

^ this is how void spells are made, the void comes from The Knight

Shamans are just a powerful catalyst

[forest topaz]

abyss shriek is the only spell that doesnt come from a shaman

[plain gazelle]

the way I read the dialogue between hornet and the shamans is that when they say "you should know our family's fascination", that fascination is SOUL, and therefore hornet should guess that in order to destroy a big soul being they would utilize void

[forest topaz]

well

soul master

[sinful nimbus]

The Snail Shaman describes void spells as "unique and expressive" and says his kind has never thought to look to the abyss for power as well (Which is a bit of a retcon)

[amber flare]

But then why doesnt vengeful spirit immediatly become warped by the knight?

[sinful nimbus]

Because TK needs a powerful source to merge its void with the spells

[forest topaz]

I mean it does make sense to me that the void is the only thing that can completely destroy higher beings

so it would be expected that the void would be utilized to do so

[limpid summit]

Soul needs a powerful catalyst to merge with void

With the void spells it’s either the ancient civilization room or the corpses of the soul attuned Shamans

You can also extend this to Kingsoul -> void heart and blackthreading to a small degree

[amber flare]

then explain howling wraiths

[limpid summit]

Wdym

How it transforms?

[amber flare]

its by the corpse of a shaman

[limpid summit]

Yeah

We don’t destroy the corpse

If we destroyed the shaman corpse we canonically might get shade soul

But that’s probably a gameplay barrier

[sinful nimbus]

Or the shamans power all went into wraiths

[forest topaz]

we see soul leak out of soul master and form into a spell

[limpid summit]

He took that spell from the shaman corpse in his lab

Not corpse

Guess he isn’t dead

[plain gazelle]

in particular I think the lines

"You bound it to that void!
Caretaker: Don't play daft. You should well know our family's fixations. Surely you had a hunch?
Bell Hermit: How else could we hope to trap one of your pale kin? Or see her consumed with such insatiable efficiency?"

work just as well if "our family's fixations" refers to soul, not void, and is more consistent with what we see in hollow knight (and for that matter silksong, where shamans are otherwise still very soul-obsessed)

[forest topaz]

so its not unreasonable to think that is what happened with howling wraiths right

[amber flare]

Also, if you skip vs and go for shade soul first, nothing happens.

[forest topaz]

yeah cause you dont have vengeful spirit

[limpid summit]

I mean you can’t really do that

Unless you shade skip or something

Which ain’t canon

You need VS to progress cause of the Baldur

[amber flare]

I figured

[sinful nimbus]

You can grind 1800 geo buy a lantern and visit Crystal Peak

Dunno if you can get cheart without dash though

[forest topaz]

the shamans corpse probably reacts to vengeful spirit or something

[amber flare]

nope

[forest topaz]

well technically you can get dash without vs but I dont think that would be canon

[limpid summit]

You need Dive for DDark right

[sinful nimbus]

yes

[limpid summit]

Wait so

Like really

Could TK just destroy the corpse to immediately turn Wraiths into Shriek

Or does the crystallized shaman have lingering power in the same way the living sanctum shaman does

It would sort of make sense if the sanctum shaman got his spell out a while ago

Would have had time to regenerate a bit

[forest topaz]

getting confirmation that the void exists below everything in the hk universe is very interesting

[amber flare]

you think it translates to being like the core of our planet, just its the abyss

[forest topaz]

something I find interesting about the void is its described as violent and all consuming but it doesnt seem to be trying to seek out anything it just sits at the bottom of the world and doesnt do anything unless provoked or manipulated in some way

[plain gazelle]

yeah it's inert naturally, it just seeks out soul that's close to it

[forest topaz]

it seems to be unorganized and chaotic in nature given how the void heart and statues of the knight in godhome describe it being unified or given focus

the influence the knight has over the void doesnt seem to be all encompassing since it still attacks hornet
either that or the knight is trolling

[graceful grail]

Many Weavers have been brought to grandmother silk since they fled pharloom.

She has definitely been out for cocoon before hornet arrives

[amber flare]

It could be like the knight controls the entirety of the abyss, but if one small thing happens somewhere in it, like Hornet and Lace being in it, the knight might not notice it immediately

[forest topaz]

maybe

I think its implied lace has never seen grand mother silk?

[dire lynx]

What makes you say she has left the coccoon before?

[amber flare]

GMS is using the weavers to try and break free

[forest topaz]

I do wonder how lace and phantom were created given that gms was imprisoned at the time

[amber flare]

we dont really know how long theyve been alive

[forest topaz]

the caretaker says lace has been around longer than most or something along those lines

he also says that lace just kills people in the citadel im pretty sure

[amber flare]

it has to have been a while given how deformed Phantom is, though its mostly from the exhaust organ

[dire lynx]

@graceful grail

[forest topaz]

phantom is a example of what happens to silk beings if they are not maintained with silk I think

why lace is being maintained but phantom isnt I dont really know

[amber flare]

and im assuming that doesnt happen in like a year

[amber flare]

wasnt Phantom banished or somethin

We know Lace still cares about Phantom, GMS not so much

[forest topaz]

I have a small hypothesis that maybe the citadel made phantom work in the exhuast organ but im not super sure on that

[amber flare]

also, when first playing through, I thought Phantom was using her own silk to create the wraiths in the mist

[dire lynx]

She was discarded by gms

[forest topaz]

I havent considered what the wraiths are from a lore standpoint until just now

what are those

[dire lynx]

They are silk and fog from the exhaust organ embued with and controlled by phantoms will

[amber flare]

why doesnt Phantom just, you know, leave the exhaust organ

[forest topaz]

maybe they collect silk for phantom since they steal it from you when they attack

[dire lynx]

If she fell into, or even simply came into contact with a muckmaggot she would die

[forest topaz]

true

[dire lynx]

They feed on soul which she is completley made out of

[forest topaz]

I think the closest lace is ever seen to any of the maggot water is the entrance to sinners road

[graceful grail]

She left the cocoon to try and subdue hornet so she could bind with her. It’s reasonable that she did the same for the rest of the weavers.

[dire lynx]

Hornet is an exceptional case both in strength and form of arrival. I wouldnt be surprised if the other weaver-children had been fed into the coccoon for gms to bind/consume

[graceful grail]

Maybe, but I didn’t exactly see a bridge going to the cocoon.

Also, separate question.

Is it possible that Phantom could’ve been spun during or before when GMS made the Weavers?

I’m saying that because of how old and frayed they are.

[dire lynx]

She and lace were certainly made after the weavers. Phantom looks so rough because gms wasnt renewing her silk

[graceful grail]

Did she do something to offend GMS, is it because she no longer has the mind of a child??

[dire lynx]

Lace journal
A bug born entirely of thread. Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained. A fragile form of life, but life nonetheless.

Phantom journal
Though grey with age, their frayed form suggested a being strung from Silk, one who welcomed a decisive end in combat over a slow decline.

[dire lynx]

The lack of a childs mind may be what offended gms

[graceful grail]

Maybe Lace is the 2nd model with the error of the mind corrected

[dire lynx]

Thats my hypothesis, though i dont actually know we have proof phantom has an adult mind

[edgy nebula]

it’s possible she didnt have the mind of a child, seeing how lace is so comfortable confiding in her

[graceful grail]

Lace seems to have a Childish scornful voice as well. Whereas Phantom seems to have a lamenting, matured in an adult way demeanor.

[dire lynx]

Doesnt really mean much, sherma sounds like a little girl but is a grown man

[graceful grail]

He might be young. The weight of the world hasn’t taken much hold on him yet.

Gtg

[dire lynx]

Thats because of the blinding faith he had in religion though, not his age

I should sleep

0530

[forest topaz]

I dont think sherma is a very old person but I dont think he's a child either

[dire lynx]

Hed be like 20 if he was human

Give or take

[forest topaz]

I think thats a fair assessment yeah

he feels like someone who just became old enough to leave home and doesnt have much life experience to me
maybe not exactly that but something similar

[graceful grail]

I literally just realized that the Beastling Call that hornet plays on the needolin is the Bellbeast Boss Fight Melody.

I only realize now because there’s an entire act in between you hearing that melody again.

Just a cool detail if you enjoy the music in this game.

[forest topaz]

I like how lace's theme is entirely composed of string instruments thematically

[dire lynx]

The song lace hums is awakening (gms boss theme)

[forest topaz]

its the dies irae

[graceful grail]

And STRIVE

[forest topaz]

I had no clue what this was until after silksong came out but its a musical phrase thats been around since the 13th century and has been associated with themes of death in other pieces of music

[graceful grail]

It’s a shame that Christopher Larkin so much amazing orchestration in Bone bottom only for you to hear the first minute of it.

[graceful grail]

I also realize that the music at every single BellWay is the Dies Idre. It just spreads out certain notes, but it is exactly it.

[forest topaz]

its in several pieces of music throughout the game but it is most prominent and noticeable in awakening

[graceful grail]

It’s even in Fairfields and Shellwood. If you listen, it’s towards the end on both

[forest topaz]

I think personally that the dies irae is used to convey the influence gms has over pharloom through the music

[plain gazelle]

i'm glad i'm not the only one who kept calling far fields fair fields

[graceful grail]

We aren’t here for money, we’re here for silksong

[silk dirge]

nah i need my rosaries

[forest topaz]

you know im a little confused on lace's character and what the sister of the void ending implies for lace's future
she seems like a very conflicted character with a lot of competing motivations

and she isnt like a good person but I dont think she's evil either

[graceful grail]

Her mother made her to be dependent on her approval. Like a child.

She doesn’t seem to want to be controlled. Phantom might’ve helped with that idea.

[plain gazelle]

personally I see hornet becoming her mentor/mother figure

[graceful grail]

Or sister

[forest topaz]

Lace deeply resents grand mother silk but at the same time desperately wants her attention

[graceful grail]

Even though Lace is technically her aunt

[plain gazelle]

she resents her BECAUSE she wants her attention

that plus the existential dread of being created to be a weak consolation prize only to be discarded when a stronger (grand)daughter comes around

[forest topaz]

I think lace views her existence as pathetic and a waste and seems to hate gms for creating her in the first place

[plain gazelle]

yeah she's got issues

[silk dirge]

<@&283547423706447872> make them sorrowful

[balmy reef]

thanmks

[forest topaz]

hornet tries to console her about it and lace basically just tells her to shut up

[sinful nimbus]

why would the mods give out copies of sea of sorrow to rulebreakers

[silk dirge]

you put them in the sea of sorrow and they become sorrowful over what theyve done

confirmed sea of sorrow npc https://tenor.com/view/sea-lion-gif-12352186724248149394

[stray fog]

Will the npc do this goofy ass dance when you play the needolin

[silk dirge]

yes

[stray fog]

🔥

[stray fog]

Genuinely why did bro do all this

[silk dirge]

its a trained sea lion

you can hear in the version with audio small clicks

[foggy fractal]

because they are awesome and cool

[stray fog]

Trained to break it down

[silk dirge]

in the wild bro would not be doing this

wild sea lions are like very aggresive

i saw them trying to reclaim a beach from humans once

[stray fog]

As a thank you for giving out so much free money

[limpid summit]

Seal of binding

[silk dirge]

actually thats a sea lion

[forest topaz]

seal of lion

[silk dirge]

the virality of this sea lion video has made me realize i am not the only one who gets super specific about the differences between seals and sea lions

actually wait

lion village

sea lion

IT ALL MAKES SENSE

lion village is pharloom bay and it will have sea lions

[edgy nebula]

the humble lionfish

[limpid summit]

There are enough sea lions in this chat already

[spark valve]

that's such a weird accusation to make without examples or evidence

[cedar skiff]

this writing is fire

[quartz spruce]

I mean, Sea of Sorrow is free, so technically everyone gets it by default

Take that Paradox

[sinful nimbus]

I don't want it 😔

[graceful grail]

The harp that plays when you open a bellway, does the melody mean anything that we know of?

[whole holly]

Shouldn’t it be same melody as beastling call since bell beast responds to both?

[silk dirge]

its repose

thats it really

[whole holly]

Also bellheart feels more interesting and captivating than Citadel

[graceful grail]

Anyone else noticed that pretty much everywhere there is not haunted bugs. They’re also is a snail shawman.

[stray fog]

What about bilewater

[whole holly]

Bilewater muckmaggots eat silk thou but also I am pretty sure shaman didn’t live there and was there temporarily

[stray fog]

They are all cities, which is a more significant similarity imo

[graceful grail]

Groal is Haunted

[whole holly]

Settlements to have access to pilgrims for Spells😱

[whole holly]

I guess that’s true

[stray fog]

Wait this might explain why they have a shit ton of soul

They just collect it when pilgrims die in the city?

[cedar skiff]

do we think the silkflies guiding hornet throughout the early game are all lace or

[whole holly]

I am not sure

[graceful grail]

I think so, because when we get to lace, the silk flies are no longer guiding us anywhere.

[stray fog]

Someone theorized that the ones in the mist are there so that lace can meet phantom without getting lost

[whole holly]

I mean Silkflies in Organ aren’t, but lace sure

[whole holly]

That is interesting

[limpid summit]

The silkflies in Organ might be lace

I saw another theory that they’re there to guide someone (or Hornet specifically) to Phantom to kill her

[whole holly]

Hey AppleEgg, why do you think that though aren’t they activated by needolin?

[stray fog]

Would anyone else know to play music near them

[cedar skiff]

ohhh my heart

[limpid summit]

The flies specifically?

Hm

Maybe their thoughts are diluted by the simplicity of their forms

We can’t needolin dregs

[cedar skiff]

the silkflies at shakras masters corpse confuse me the most

[whole holly]

Widow, or Lace of she can sing needolin melody

[stray fog]

Lace can conduct silkflies

Yes

[whole holly]

I mean me too but Silkflies seem to have basic instincts

[whole holly]

I guess that’s somewhat of adjusted skill?

[graceful grail]

Question, was lace always intended to be a being made entirely from silk? Or was it originally just some sort of costume she was wearing when she was going to be a normal bug??

When TC was making the game

[stray fog]

No way to know that

[halcyon merlin]

I'd assume team cherry had atleast the base of the game thought out

[graceful grail]

I mean, was she ever referred to as a silk being before the release of the game?

[halcyon merlin]

so lace was probably the same thing she is now

[stray fog]

They probably didn't want to spoil anything

[graceful grail]

Repose is the dies idre. Just a diffrent rythm. If you listen close to it.

[fathom parrot]

What would act 4 be

[halcyon merlin]

city of steel

[silk dirge]

honestly if another act is added it probably would be like

epilogue

and not act 4

[stray fog]

Some popular ideas are

• steel
• pharloom restoration

[fathom parrot]

Or pharloom gets even more messed up

[silk dirge]

i doubt it

[halcyon merlin]

just abandon pharloom at this point

[graceful grail]

I doubt there will be an four. Whatever the DLC has in store will probably be available in the act two and have more of it unlocked in act three

[fathom parrot]

Pharloom barely avoided to die like hallownest did

So it could be worse

[silk dirge]

the biggest issue with any sort of post game dlc is that several things would get messed up

like several mementos would be completely impossible to get

[fathom parrot]

Maybe

[silk dirge]

like hunters memento

bc you cant kill enemies that are already dead

[fathom parrot]

Yea

[silk dirge]

honestly i think it would be interesting if you like

get an option with garmond

where you can just leave him lost until you beat lost lace and then hes fine

but idk if that would work out

[fathom parrot]

Act 4 is gonna be when hallownest finds itself right next to pharloom because of earthquakes trust trust

[muted lantern]

I imagine dlc will be accessible in act 2/3

[graceful grail]

Actually, for dream sequences if you get through without completing the entry, it will complete it if you can’t enter the dream anymore

[quartz spruce]

Return to Hallownest might be fun

[silk dirge]

sea of sorrow probably will

[stray fog]

We don't know if beating lost lace saved everyone or killed them

[quartz spruce]

Dunno why you'd want to go back there though

[fathom parrot]

Id love it but it will never happen

[forest topaz]

I think a core difference between hollow knight and silksong that I really enjoy in skong is that hallownest was an already long dead kingdom by the events of the game whereas pharloom is dying, not dead just yet. It feels a lot more alive and I personally enjoy that more

[fathom parrot]

Yeah but pharloom never truly dies even in act 3

[silk dirge]

i have the best act 4 idea

hear me out

more weakness cutscenes heading out of the abyss

[muted lantern]

Considering the void eats your soul and being freed from the haunting kills in most cases (source:bellhart) I don't have much hope for the survival of the black threaded.

[silk dirge]

i dont even think hornet is that weak after lost lace

[forest topaz]

okay lore question
wtf is up with hornet limping like that

[silk dirge]

but itd be funny

[muted lantern]

Maybe some haunted recover but not the black threaded.

[forest topaz]

I never really figured out why that was happening

[fathom parrot]

She kinda fell down 2 hallownest tall

[silk dirge]

like she seems perfectly fine in sotv

[stray fog]

Also we killed atleast 3 old hearts, which might have caused even more damage

[forest topaz]

honestly I might be just looking into it too much it probably is just hornet is hurt

[fathom parrot]

While being sealed and weakneed

[muted lantern]

I mean she just woke up and hasn't even tried standing yet iirc.

[forest topaz]

cause it happens after hornet's cage falls down that massive pit and after the cradle collapses both of which were probably pretty harmful events

[fathom parrot]

Yep

[muted lantern]

Unless ghost sucked the void out of her I imagine she'll have some lingering effects of her time in the void. Though I doubt it'll kill her.

[stray fog]

If they added it to more events, people would be mad

[fathom parrot]

Hornet gets void manipulation in act 4 trust

[forest topaz]

yeah I know I wasnt really suggesting adding more of it

[graceful grail]

Lots of the bugs that were haunted we’re already dead…

Like the ones in the citidel

[fathom parrot]

Nah but she had the everbloom too so she probably is fine

[stray fog]

She can swim freely in the void after getting the everbloom
This means that it was the void tentacles that damaged her and ate away at her silk, not the liquid itself

[forest topaz]

when you enter the citadel everyone is dead
its only when you meet lace that the corpses are possessed and reanimated by gms

[silk dirge]

nah she stands up perfectly fine in sotv

[fathom parrot]

What is sotv

[silk dirge]

sister of the void

[fathom parrot]

Ohh

So like the knight ending?

[stray fog]

Yes

[silk dirge]

true ending yeah

[fathom parrot]

Ok

True ending atm

[muted lantern]

Well we know everbloom repels the void I imagine there's a barrier when she's swimming.

[fathom parrot]

Basically isma's tear for void

[forest topaz]

I think its implied that being submerged in void for prolonged periods of time is harmful even without the void actively attacking you but hornet wasnt in the void for that long without the everbloom

[muted lantern]

But everbloom is gone in the final scene and she's fully submerged

[silk dirge]

technically hornets final completion percentage is 99% bc she loses everbloom

[stray fog]

True I forgor about that

[fathom parrot]

There may be different intensities of void too

[silk dirge]

i mean we gotta remember what we see in the cutscene is probably slowed down for dramatic effect

[stray fog]

We don't know the exact duration so its impossible to say

[muted lantern]

I think it's far more interesting if there's some lasting consequences to the void dip. Though it wouldn't be fatal to creatures like them.

[silk dirge]

in actuality it probably happened really fast

[forest topaz]

I mean I doubt that the knight would just leave her there for very long

[fathom parrot]

Btw can someone tell me wtf happened in the act 2 normal ending?

[stray fog]

It depends on the depth she was at

[silk dirge]

hornet falls to her desire to dominate

[limpid summit]

Hornet binds GMS, but as she says to Eva, binding a powerful creature might prove dangerous to her identity

[stray fog]

Besides, she already fainted due to the void when the knight reached her
So there are some effects

[limpid summit]

So Hornet becomes the Weaver Queen and (?)

[fathom parrot]

So basically she becomes thk

[limpid summit]

Probably perpetuates the haunting in some way

[silk dirge]

nah she clearly notices tk

[stray fog]

And then she faints, doesn't she?

[forest topaz]

hornet binds grand mother silk and replaces her as the monarch of the citadel
this isnt really a good ending for hornet or anyone living in pharloom

[silk dirge]

yeah she passes out from surprise at seeing tk

shes like "WHAT"

[forest topaz]

I think she faints from being in the void but I guess thats another interpretation

[stray fog]

Wait she doesn't even know wtf happened in dnm or etv

Especially etv

[fathom parrot]

Or maybe shes just hella tired of fighting an hivemind godlike substance for the last 10 hours

[forest topaz]

hornet is clearly aware of what happens in dream no more but embrace the void the knight essentially fucks off to go do a random sidequest and becomes god and hornet has no idea whats happening

[fathom parrot]

True lol

[stray fog]

Yeah from her pov the infection just vanished on some random Tuesday and then the fucking hollow knight walked out of its prison 😭

[fathom parrot]

Reminds me of a youtube meme

[forest topaz]

I wonder which of the two endings silksong is following up from

[stray fog]

"heyyyy"
"heyyyyy"
"WHAT???"

[fathom parrot]

Yesss

[forest topaz]

the evidence we have could suggest either of them I think unless im missing something

it cant be the hollow knight ending though

[stray fog]

Both of them have approximately the same amount of supporting and opposing evidence so I have no idea

[forest topaz]

they might have wanted to leave it up to interpretation

[fathom parrot]

Probably godseeker? There is no everbloom in pharloom so it cant be the fragile flower ending and the knight clearly is the shade lord and not just a shadow

[stray fog]

Most probably

[forest topaz]

I think we dont really have enough knowledge on how or why the shade lord manifested from the void in the etv ending to really know if thats the only way it can happen and the form that is most prominent is the normal shade

[stray fog]

Void given focus

[fathom parrot]

We only see the knight and not the other shades though

[stray fog]

The godseeker's focus was the thing that caused it

I think

[fathom parrot]

Oh yeah true

Hornet is also in the godfinder

[forest topaz]

wdym the background is full of the other shades

low quality screenshot but yeah

[shell pine]

What if nyleth died because of the river in blasted steps/karak drying up? Nyleth just shriveled from lack of water

[mint stratus]

I wonder if, considering that all life is supposed to be swallowed by the void eventually (from what I understand at least) like entropy, are the vessels unable to die in a way that matters?

Wait do we have a verdict on if the everbloom kills void or just teleports it or something?

[shell pine]

I mean, these areas are right next to each other

[mint stratus]

Can plants in hollowknight die of old age?

[jagged socket]

hornets face is a mask, right? when she talks to the mask maker he says "you alraedy have a mask"

[fresh badger]

Mask and face mean the same thing

[limpid summit]

A mask is used as a word for face sometimes

[stray fog]

Kills all void with a form

[jagged socket]

There are bugs without masks though arent there

Sentient ones

[low oracle]

Nosk seems capable of creating organic material (masks), which resemble the real version basically perfect. They also seem sapient, as they strategically lure their prey by manipulating them.

[jagged socket]

The skarrs have masks, but they show their faces so it doesnt seem "tabboo" to show them

Silk snippers dont have masks but hide their faces, while thread rakers do have them

[low oracle]

Also, basically any bug in Hollow Knight is "sentient". I think sapient is the word you're looking for, it refers to specifically intelegent bugs.

[jagged socket]

And like the fleas dont have masks at all iirc? even the old ones

It just seems super inconsistent given the importance thats placed upon masks as a concept

[low oracle]

Yeah, there are organic masks and there are carved masks. Hollow Knight is pretty weird in defining which is which, but more often than not they are organic. Removing organic masks doesn't result in death though, at least not necessarily. Weaver masks are organic, and Widow still managed to live after having hers removed.

There is also organic armor, for example the Karaks.

[low oracle]

Not really, it just repels it. The Void doesn't cease to exist, neither does it receive any damage. It simply calms down and is prevented from getting anywhere near the everbloom.

[fresh badger]

Are you saying black face + white eyes = faceless?

[low oracle]

I'm pretty sure that these enemies are just supposed to have hoods on, while still having facial features. That's just the way Team Cherry draws covered faces.

There are also black shells, not everyone has to have a white face.

[fresh badger]

Agreed

[muted lantern]

oh wow they make their alchohol out of other bugs, wild. I assumed it was like plant nectar.

[low oracle]

These guys eat Moorwing. What did you expect? Did you know though, if you kill Moorwing and it falls in the water, they have different meat.

[muted lantern]

This isnt flea brew, it's the nectar from halfway house

[low oracle]

Oh. Why did the ants want to get drunk again?

[muted lantern]

the vintage for taste of pharloom

[muted lantern]

I mean. It's probably really good nectar. Plus the ants value currency, so they could sell it.

Also could be just gms's command to sew chaos, as they are haunted

[graceful grail]

There seems to be plenty of water in shellwood

[low oracle]

But they don't like outsiders trading, at least from what we can see with the Skarr Dealer. And they're haunted too, which means they are just pillaging out of base instinct.

[low oracle]

Additionally, the citadel worked together with Nyleth. The citadel also where the ones who dried out the sands of karak. So I doubt they would stupidly break the deal where they themselves have so much to gain (protection of pilgrims through Shellwood).

[jagged socket]

No I'm saying thats the mask, white face + black eyes = mask in my eyes

Black face + white eyes = face hidden in shadows, likely to not have a mask

[low oracle]

If they had no mask at all, they'd literally have no face.

[jagged socket]

Look at the flees

or grimble

they have faces

[quiet flare]

Do you think hornet only can drink? how does she drink the flea brew? does she inject it like the plasmium?

[fresh badger]

Again, Mask Maker uses face and mask interchangably

[low oracle]

They have fur covering them. You don't know what's underneath, especially since Kratt has white eyes.

[fresh badger]

And also speaks of faceless beings

[low oracle]

And Grindle clearly wears a hood.

[jagged socket]

You can see his bottom jaw

What about jubilana

Or loddie

Black eyes

[low oracle]

Do you think he could be referring to Nosk? As in, literally the god of the faceless?
Or rather normal bugs like Styx, which sturggle with their identity, hence not having a "mask" (mask = personality).

[jagged socket]

Actually

it seems like white eyes = no mask

All of the void beings have white eyes

Or eye color just doesnt play a role

[low oracle]

If they don't have masks, they still have shells. And basically nearly all bugs have masks, they mostly are the word used for faces.

[muted lantern]

Are craws haunted? if yes, what about the court of craws?

[jagged socket]

What about nuu?

[low oracle]

The pale King doesn't wear a mask, and neither do any of the vessels.

[jagged socket]

Doesnt seem like a shell, she resembles a snail

[jagged socket]

I meant shamans, sorry, not void being

[low oracle]

She has a literal shell on her back.

[jagged socket]

Isnt that a backpack?

Plus her eye stalks move, and she has a mouth

[low oracle]

Possibly the same thing. Either way, they also wear shells.

[jagged socket]

Shells, yes, face coverings, not as far as I can see

I'mtalking about literal masks

[low oracle]

Creative design, the Snail Shamans also have snail shells that aren't particularly realistic.

[low oracle]

If you mean literal, non-organic masks, not everybody has them.

[fresh badger]

Imo normal bugs like Styx, especially with how he links masks to crests when talking to Hornet, and crests are kinda the summation of one's identity

[jagged socket]

We know this from eva iirc?

[low oracle]

Eva says that crests are "ones nature".

[jagged socket]

Eva spoke about how it was strange that hornet had so many crests, and anyone else wouldve gone mad

[low oracle]

Masks (artificial) = Personality
Crest = Nature
The Kings brand could also be a sort of crest, as the Knight definitely has some changes going on when gaining it.

[fresh badger]

Are personality and nature that different though

[low oracle]

Do you think that Styx stole the literal face from someone of the same species as the Hinter/Runt? Since their bodies don't match at all, and Skynx basically does the same to Styx.

[fresh badger]

Imo their bodies were pretty similar? Lemme look for sprites

[low oracle]

Yeah, kinda. Probably. Personality affects a bugs mind, crests do not. A crest would change your patience and your mindset (strategy vs. brute force), while a mask would change the way you think entirely.

[low oracle]

Styx looks very realistically bug like, while Hunter has a meaty large body. But send in some pictures if you can, I'd definitely appreciate it.

[fresh badger]

....wow I never noticed they were that different

Huntress is very normal, 2 legs 2 arms

Styx has 6 limbs

And her cloak is clearly different from his wings

Thats crazy 😭

[low oracle]

And looks like a real bug, spare the mask.

[low oracle]

Look at how Stynx's head connects...
He definitely stole the mask as means to make up for a face and personality.

[jagged socket]

Whos to stay its stolen?

Maybe the mask makerm ade it

[low oracle]

That seems weird, since that type of mask is definitely organically grown by the Hunter species.

[fresh badger]

Because we see a species with that same face 🥀

[jagged socket]

The huntress? thats a different mask

[jagged socket]

Different shape

[modern flame]

bro looks like a hammer

[low oracle]

Vessels also have different shapes, yet they still are all obviously related.

Gotta go now, bye!

[silk dirge]

ok WHAT the fuck is youtube shorts cooking

[sinful nimbus]

El chiefo if he made bad videos

[edgy nebula]

i think i know this guy, he just makes stupid "ayoo!?!?" comment bait videos

[craggy smelt]

I believe the game itself establishes that no, she cannot

unless you count the grey parasite hrmm abortion metaphor hrm hrm

[silk dirge]

silksong youtube shorts are like so bad

[craggy smelt]

not just the silksong ones

[silk dirge]

i saw someone trying to make a connection between a random door in deep docks and the submarine front from the sos teaser

they have like vaguely similar designs

but they are very likely not related in any way

[craggy smelt]

I mean, that's actually an interesting question - who built the submersible

Forgehome, or some other group?

[silk dirge]

i would guess weavers maybe

[craggy smelt]

nice, nice, diving bell spider reference

maybe a citadel craft

and then for what purpose~?!

[twilit crest]

I wonder if we will ever get into who might take over shellwood

[quiet mango]

okay I need answers...is first sinner a dream boss or not ?

[twilit crest]

Yes

The living will of a dead body

[quiet mango]

so we just open up a tomb and her ghost or something comes out wtf

[twilit crest]

Hornet attempts to bind her cairn/corpse and widow's spirit is more or less like "no" or "prove yourself" first

Cause she seems to willingly give up her power at the end of the fight

[plain gazelle]

worth mentioning that even before hornet gets pulled into the dream proper first sinner is pretty aware of who hornet is; she says "Half-spawn of a distant land..." while all the other weaver corpses only say "daughter of a distant land"

for my personal headcanon i chalk it up to time magic with first sinner being Atla

[twilit crest]

I think its just kinda like Lingering Will

[quiet mango]

I now envision it as like before she gives her the power the tomb emits a gaz or in this case silk powder to communicate with her mind, pretty much like how hornet temporarly needolins to gain access to people thoughts, but in this case first sinner which is atla is having a 1v1 in hornet's mind to test her both mentally and physically.

https://tenor.com/view/sukuna-3-hour-mute-mute-sukuna-mute-gif-10662361727476198590

[quartz stump]

herrah's face isnt the thing that makes her not look like a weaver, its her body, at least to me

like
a weaver without a mask looks like widow, so it's likely maybe she changed her mask for some reason, but its possible

but then the body just, feels contradictory

[sinful nimbus]

Her design was changed to be more like a weaver in Silksong

[edgy nebula]

her body was retconned

[quartz stump]

ohh

[sinful nimbus]

Its mostly just the horns atp

[quartz stump]

idk i never rlly payed attention to the difference between the bodies in hk n ss but they do look different

she def looks like a weaver with a large cloak
and as i said the horns n smaller mask just kinda makes sense in my head bc of widow

[sinful nimbus]

Well the horns are part of her body in this case since Hornet inherited them

[graceful grail]

Herras mask could have altered her body, and made her grow the horns

[sinful nimbus]

Why would it do that?

[graceful grail]

No other weaver is like her. And the mask clearly has some power that might do that

Herra is full weaver btw

Its the only thing i can think of that could make such a big change

[quartz stump]

unrelated but i just had a realization
grimm's attacks resemble the reaper's crest right
"haha hes the grimm reaper" okay but think about it
a reaper is usually one who harvests crops, who reaps crops
in silksong the reaper crest comes from one of these, but who harvests the falling silk (but also maybe the actual crops once those where still there). this explains why it helps you get more silk, you harvest silk from your enemies
Grimm, uses this harvesting technique, to attack. and hes not harvesting any silk. hes harvesting nightmare energy from dying kingdoms
In a way, Grimm's attacks are an equivalent to using a scythe as a weapon, a common thing for grim reaper characters, because they harvest souls
its this sort of scythe equivalent in the game of hollow knight in a way, except its not a scythe but a fighting style

[graceful grail]

This is already been discussed many times. Glad to see someone else noticed.

[edgy nebula]

hello all

[tawny cliff]

Hi

Hi

[graceful grail]

Guys! Is it seals that changed the shape of their mask?!?

[fresh badger]

🥀 what are you saying bruh

The seals were made to depict thk

[graceful grail]

Then explain herras horns despite her being full weaver

[edgy nebula]

poor retcon

[graceful grail]

Obviously something changed herras body.

Either Seals, Her Dream Mask, Bad Genes, Getting with PK.

All these are options.

Also, Hornet inherited them so i think it’s important enough to discuss.

[graceful grail]

I think this seal being in the weavenest implies that they used it on someone to strengthen them. Like PK did to THK.

We know the weavers did it kuz its a silk seal, not soul.

I think the most likely candidate is herra.

[heavy gyro]

The implication is that the weavers helped PK make the seal

[graceful grail]

Why would they try making this one out of silk then?

PK doesn’t seem to have a problem making seals.

[edgy nebula]

i wonder what "Reflection made real..." means

[fresh badger]

Rahhh palestag was FAKE

[edgy nebula]

i dont feel like it's referring to palestag there

[craggy smelt]

they were reflections of each other
but not like in water or a mirror or something, like living reflections

[gentle aspen]

gay love

[edgy nebula]

i feel like in that case it's worded a little weird, it doesnt come off like that to me

[craggy smelt]

Green Prince's love was so much like him, he was like a reflection of Green Prince come to life
Reflection made real

their X together (joy, heart, etc.)

[edgy nebula]

ooh yeah that makes more sense

[cedar skiff]

i saw an interpretation of green prince viewed through the narcissus myth cause of this line. Very interesting and fun

[edgy nebula]

yeah thats actually why i brought it up, i had decided to listen to clover dancer’s theme on youtube and when looking at the comments someone commented a theory like that

[cedar skiff]

very interesting…

the idea that verdania fell due to him being so self absorbed & thats why the other one manifests is like a smarter sounding version of hes schizophrenic

[halcyon merlin]

he never had a husband

he is just schizophrenic

[dense sphinx]

Leviathan crest possibly??

[limpid summit]

Who taught Runt and Broodling to speak

[craggy smelt]

hmm, good question

inherent ability? genetic memory?

[stray fog]

Maybe its inherent

Because bugs of different kingdoms have the same language

So there might be a universal language, that everyone somehow knows by default

[stray fog]

But the skarrs and mushrooms have different languages to everyone else

[muted lantern]

I feel like they might just know how to talk innately? would explain why hornet shares a language with most bugs.

[lean temple]

She just knows multiple languages it seems.
"My apologies, sir. Though I can grasp the language of many bugs, your words are unfamiliar even to me." Talking to Mottled Skarr

[unborn nova]

how is Karmelita able to speak the common language?

[honest ruin]

maybe she created the language

which is a stupid take

but its my take

[wintry blade]

guys whats the lore of lost lace

[dire lynx]

Lace is made of silk (soul) and so the void gasped onto her and is probably trying to consume her

[wintry blade]

how is she able to manipulate void to the extent in the fight

[dire lynx]

Its moreso that the void is manipulating her

Not the other way round

[wintry blade]

so basically she is like a host for the void

[dire lynx]

Yes

[wintry blade]

if thats that then
who is the lace who talks to hornet while she explores the abyss

[dire lynx]

Idk

Lol

[craggy smelt]

the part of her that hasn't been overtaken by the Void

[unborn nova]

It's possible that she has diplomatic relation with Verdania and Karaka.

Thus, that's how she is able to speak it.

[honest ruin]

I thought they were an aggresive mess

I mean, not karmelita ofc

but they must have learned from someone

[unborn nova]

True, Karmelita must have learned it

[unborn nova]

Was Relic Seeker Scrounge a vaultkeeper?

[whole holly]

what was reason of removing Dream Nail and replace it with Needolin, lore and world-building wise?

[unborn nova]

Because this game is not Hollow Knight, you play as Hornet instead of The Knight.

[whole holly]

yeah, but removing Essence as story element makes no sense if Essence canonically makes up memories

[unborn nova]

Well yeah, idk about that.

[dire lynx]

Same species probably, though never a member of the vaultkeepers

As cardinius, i mean

[lean temple]

Dream Nail is a Moth relic and cannot be obtained in Pharloom. Needolin is a Weaver skill and replaces its function. A link between silk and memories is established throughout the game, from GMS's hivemind to the Red Memory sequence.

[dire lynx]

Wait, why are we talking abt dreamnail?

[unborn nova]

this

[dire lynx]

Blocked message, wht dors it say?

[unborn nova]

"what was reason of removing Dream Nail and replace it with Needolin, lore and world-building wise?"

[dire lynx]

What blue said is a perfect answer, then. Will add that the dream nail is one of a kind

[dark tartan]

Umm i just did the sister of the void ending and the knight who saves hornet
He is he our knight or is he the hollow knight because his shell matches with hollow knight instead of the knight
Can anyone confirm this?

[lean temple]

The Knight

THK's shade is much larger

[dire lynx]

Its the knight, THK shade is absent from the ending

[dark tartan]

Oh ok thankd

*thanks

[dire lynx]

Knight looks different in shade form than in shell

[dark tartan]

Ohh ok that explains

Thanks

[dire lynx]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-gif-23741519

See the two shades here

[dark tartan]

thanks

also is there an act 4?

or is the act3 last one?

[dire lynx]

Act three is last

[dark tartan]

oh ok thanks

[whole holly]

Yeah but removal of equivalent function as its relation to essence and establishing force (silk) that does it which is another form of Soul makes Essence as part of universe redundant

[craggy smelt]

not yet

dot dot dot

[lean temple]

It is impossible to get the Dream Nail in Pharloom. TC had to make an alternative.

It doesn't necessarily make Essence redundant. It just adds an alternative way to access memories. Maybe the Radiance being killed also had some effect on Essence that we don't know.

[whole holly]

i disagree, since Essence was replaced by another form of soul that explicitly serves different purpose in universe and is bad world building, plus Essence usage and manipulation was no exclusive to Mothkin, there was no reason why they couldn't have introduced equivalent that does manipulate already established Essence

[lean temple]

It's the game design they chose.

Reality is that people will always complain. If they copied essence mechanics people would complain about unoriginality, and since they changed it people also complained about why they didn't just have Essence.

[whole holly]

it could have introduced another equivalent of Dream Nail that wasn't connected to Silk, Song/Needolin mechanic was passive one and didn't really need to be connected to Silk, especially because Silksong the name implies they are equally important, and Essence is inherent part of the universe that previous game established that Memories, Dreams and Light is made up of Essence, we do interact with memories and not essence, which previous game implies are exclusively related

[whole holly]

Silk mechanic is improved Soul that makes sense from Lore perspective, Essence could have been improved upon without being removed from second game for no good lore reason

[lean temple]

I mean sure. Silk is a bit odd since it's used in almost anything, but it also opens up to not repeat the same things like using essence. Ultimately there isn't a one size fits all. People will criticise no matter what TC do.

[oblique rampart]

Essence doesn't make sense in pharloom unless hornet took a dnail with her to pharloom

[whole holly]

point is that making Silk amalgamation of Soul, Essence and Song magic with Spider String cosplay made game repetitive from lore design perspective, it would have better if Silk was cohesive force that has none of those abilities and was another form of Soul with actual unique abilities that make Sense for Silk as mechanic

[lean temple]

Yep. Which she cannot since the only one known to exist was lost with the Knight.

[dire lynx]

How are we still arguing abt this??

[oblique rampart]

Yups

[whole holly]

Team Cherry not being immune to criticism is not valid reason to make Essence as force of universe exclusive to one game for bad lore reason

[oblique rampart]

In all endings every thing knight had is destroyed

[whole holly]

Essence is not exclusive to Dream Nail for reasons i already stated

[oblique rampart]

Dream nail helps normal bugs use essence to some extent

[whole holly]

Essence was never exclusive to Dream Nail, if Songs can somehow connect to memories, connecting it to Silk instead of Essence doesn't make sense

[dire lynx]

Oh its nika, why am i not surprised something so obvious hasnt been resolved yet

[whole holly]

but it is not exclusive to Dream nail

[oblique rampart]

Hornet can't do anything without it she ain't a moth buddy

[lean temple]

How would we incorporate essence into silksong? Give some examples. What would Hornet use to do so?

[dire lynx]

Dont waste ur time, this guy has comprehension and literacy issues

[oblique rampart]

Yeah give me a valid reason how she would be able to do anything with essence if there was essence instead of silk

[whole holly]

like i said, Essence is not exclusive to moths and it is repetitive to lazily recreate Memories with Essence that makes them up

[oblique rampart]

Radiance made the moths so they had the power to control essence and radiance

[whole holly]

maybe there should be creative way to incorporate essence into game, i am not TC writer so, connecting Silk to Song to memories but not Essence is weird process since Essence makes up memories

we should call mods for this

[oblique rampart]

How would she use the essence to anything with it?

[whole holly]

Unn, Pale King, Nightmare Heart all have Dream/Essence powers

[dire lynx]

@oblique rampart I spent 3 hours trying to explain the difference between a wizard and a gardener to this guy, you are wasting words here

[oblique rampart]

Nah let him tell me his point

[dire lynx]

I have them blocked, tell me if anything of importance or relevance is said plz

[oblique rampart]

Nightmare heart live in nightmare realm unn cuz she can and pale king probably asked the moths for it or had the dream power

[whole holly]

hey that is something for Team Cherry to solve, but Song could have been Essence related since Song mechanic is related to memories

[oblique rampart]

Bro your wasting everyone's time here

[whole holly]

if team cherry game simple explanation that connects song, essence, thoughts, dreams together this would be solved

[whole holly]

interacting is a choice, i am not making anyone respond to me

[oblique rampart]

How would hornet enter dream realm?

[whole holly]

that's not question i want to ask

[whole holly]

she kinda already does though since she enters memories which are connected to dreams

[oblique rampart]

Dreams and memories are seperate

[whole holly]

Seer says otherwise

[oblique rampart]

The hell does he say?

She

[whole holly]

No dream can hide itself from you now. You can peer into the darkest places... You just need to find the right crack.
What will you do with such a power, Wielder? Whose memories will you hunt down?

The Dream Nail glows bright... It holds over 1200 Essence. Looking into it I can see so many memories peering back at me. So many asking to be remembered.

Returning with 500 Essence Ahhhhh. 500 Essence. You're a master in the making. Well done! Well done! I've a small reward for you.

Plucked from one of my most precious memories, this Charm will bring you and the Dream Nail closer together still. The secrets of this kingdom won't be able to hide from you any longer!

And so this kingdom was born from that betrayal. But the memories of that ancient light still lingered, hush whispers of faith... Until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light.

This kingdom is full of old memories, both beautiful and grotesque. Seek them out, reveal them, and gather Essence.

[whole holly]

i pretty much pasted everything

now it is all crickets

[stark ocean]

this is basically one of the many retcons/oversights tc made while making silksong

[whole holly]

exactly, everyone is toxic about it

[stark ocean]

another one is how the everbloom doesn't protect the knight from void tendrils

i havent met that much ppl being toxic about some oversight mainly bcuz the game is so good

[whole holly]

yeah, that might be because of Delicate Flower is more fragile but also more potent with Void repressing, Everbloom is plucked from Memory less fragile and i think less potent as well, but this is generic speculation that has been going around

[whole holly]

game is good, this is just somewhat minor lore issue that should be addressed ideally

[low oracle]

Do we absolutely, definitely, for sure know that the fragile flower and the Everbloom are the same? Of course they are similar, but they look different and work differently. Maybe the art style changed a bit over the games, but it's not out of the question to assume they aren't the same thing.

Also, I have some interesting speculation as to why the fragile flower breaks in one hit, while the everbloom doesn't. The Knight has a white mask (face) and a black shell (body). Inside it is completely void. So it possibly couldn't carry the fragile flower too close to its body, inside the cloak for example. Hornet on the other hand doesn't have void to get repelled by the flower, hence she can carry it close to her, where it is more protected.

[heavy gyro]

"I would not seek it in these lands. I need its power full, and it is too fragile to sustain here long. I would seek it in my memory." The memory version of the everbloom is stronger

[low oracle]

It is also important to note that the Embrace the Void ending when having given the delicate flower to the godseeker is pretty weird. The Everbloom can only repel void, and only do so for a limited period of time. Yet the delicate flower makes the godseeker disappear completely, either destroying her or removing her by other means. Teleportation could also be speculated, though that doesn't seem very likely.

The bigger question is, what happens in that ending? Godhome is a dream (realm?) inside of Godseeker's mind, so the Godseeker in the junk pit likely acts as a sort of vessel. The godseekers would have probably had an easier time traversing through the desolate wastes, when not having to support each other, instead one strong member carrying them all. Godhome is definitely a real place though, since it has grand effects on the normal realm ("real" world).

Godhome mode is what happens after embrace the void, so the Knight/Shade Lord seemingly absorbed the dream realm inside itself, to continue training and improving. Hence it is also possible that the Radiance and possibly GMS have also become absorbed by the Shade Lord. GMS isn't for certain though, as she only deals with the unfocused void.

[low oracle]

Interesting. Since Hornet has to use the Elegy to take the hearts in their prime, the Red memory probably works similarly, providing the Everbloom/delicate flower at its strongest form.

[fresh badger]

Wdym they look different

[low oracle]

The delicate flower is larger and pointier.

[stray fog]

The everbloom is a memory version of a delicate flower
Thats the only difference

[fresh badger]

N
No?

[stray fog]

Everything else is stuff like different art style

[fresh badger]

That frame is also like the Everbloom about to fizzle out from the void

[stray fog]

That difference is so minute

[low oracle]

No, that's when you first enter the void sea.

[fresh badger]

Ok I wouldnt know I dont play silksong

[low oracle]

I'm in the HK lore channel. Besides that, one is a different version.

[stray fog]

Wdym? (in the lore channel sentence)

[low oracle]

The Everbloom is from red memory and is also stronger, as said by a (@). It likely ties back to fighting the Old hearts in their prime, to get their hearts as strong as possible.

[fresh badger]

Its not stronger, its more durable*

[low oracle]

Oh, that. I mean that people argue about the tiniest little shit to ever exist. I mostly don't though, it was a joke.

[fresh badger]

She says that the real one is too fragile to last long enough

[stray fog]

Yes there are some differences (fragility, for example), but they are the same flower species

[stray fog]

Lmao

[low oracle]

I meant stonger as in, having more capability. It's effects seem far weaker though.

[stray fog]

I just rewatched the last dive cutscene, and the flower's functioning might not even be that different between the 2 games

I thought it destroyed void tendrils

But it could also be teleportation

[low oracle]

Teleportation seems incredibly out of hand, since it practically never is mentioned. Even the dreamgate is the Knight just walking through the dream realm.

The Everbloom is pretty well explained in what it does. The Delicate flower on the other hand not so much, it's kinda random. The Knight, a being with a core of void isn't repelled or affected. Pure Void on the other hand is, yet it doesn't free the godseeker. Instead she just disappears too.

[lean temple]

"To hold it so close one must be unaware of its nature" WL warning TK about the Everbloom

Are we seriously still discussing this

[low oracle]

You don't have to be so rude about it. I didn't know of that dialogue. Besides, what do mean "still discussing". Do you have the answer to my questions?

[lean temple]

I didn't mean to sound rude. I meant are we still discussing whether the Everbloom is the delicate flower, because it is.

[low oracle]

Okay. The Everbloom is the delicate flower, just a stronger version of it.

[fresh badger]

More durable*

[fresh badger]

TK isnt affected bc its only its shell touching the flower not its void (ignoring shade cloak and void spells)

[low oracle]

It's shell would be strong enough anyway, I'm just saying that Team Cherry didn't know what to do with the flower until Silksong.

[whole holly]

not really it seems somewhat intentional, they may be setting up lands of serene game

[low oracle]

I'm talking about the insane amounts of inconsistensy that the delicate flower has.

[whole holly]

not really, there is explanation for everything, along it's fragility and potency, plus gameplay reasons

[low oracle]

1. The flower doesn't repel void (HK)
2. The flower makes the godseeker diappear completely (HK)
3. The flower doesn't affect the Knight, even while doing void stuff (absorbing the shade cloak for one)

[whole holly]

1. it does just not way we see in silksong, which is explained by fact that it is caused by memory 2. that's part of it's power and part of a mystery, which is intentional 3. gameplay

[low oracle]

Your arguments consist of nothing. Gameplay and mystery aren't bringing fortha better point, and neither does the memory part of it. The flower from the memory is more durable, that is all. It wouldn't behave completely different solely for this reason. That's a lame excuse.

[whole holly]

1. hornet literally says it:and it is too fragile to sustain here long. I would seek it in my memory. 2. endings are left up to interpretation on purpose 3. everbloom is less fragile than ones in hallownest

[low oracle]

Being less fragile doesn't give it new powers. I don't want to argue if you aren't making actual points. What you say is true, it just doesn't bring anything to the discussion.

[whole holly]

Everbloom having new powers is not conventionally true, it is less fragile and doesn't immediately get destroyed on impact so it can repel the void........

[pearl thunder]

it does something similar in ETV flower ending in HK

[fresh badger]

You could see it as a slower release of power?

While the df dumps all of it at once

[lean temple]

They're similar. The DF repels Void once and gets singed, while the everbloom keeps doing so till it gives out. They're not much different in how they act tbh

[fresh badger]

I wouldnt call EtV repelling void

[low oracle]

The flower only has one of its petals turn black though. Plus they only repel, so why can it destroy the void seemingly.

Anyways, gotta go now. Bye!

[stray fog]

It might be because of the quantity of void in each case

In etv, it had to deal with the entire shade lord

[lean temple]

It seems to make a little flashbang and destroy Void given form in both cases.
It is described to "resist" or "ward against" the void.

[covert night]

i agree

it's not inconsistent tho. there isn't much anything in hk about the flower except the etv ending cutscene

[viscid ridge]

Yeah to be fair i dont really think its that much of an inconsistency, considering we also see the godseeker touching the flower while having void inside her. It only dissappears after the void literally breaks out of her and touches it. I think the same is relevant to the knight, its shell protects its void inside from being effected.

But the flower not having any effect on the void i think is just team cherry not really expecting people to take the flower down there 😅

[frank dove]

Yes they are

Ofc it looks different from inventory to cutscene

And in all the cutscenes in silksong the ends are decaying so there is no real way to compare them that way

Other than petal length they look exactly the same, they def are the same

[low oracle]

I'm referring to the fact that the delicate flower completely "disappears" the void coming from godseeker and godseeker herself. I'm saing "disappears" because we have no idea what actually happens.
The Everbloom on the other hand was taken from a memory, similar to the hearts being taken from memories. The hearts have to be taken this way to, so they are in their prime, hence I guess the Everbloom works similarly. Therefore it is far more durable than the delicate flower.

At the same time however, it seemse far less powerful. Apart from the inconsistency that the delicate flower doesn't repel void, it is far stronger. The Everbloom on the other hand simply repels the void, only doing so for a limited amount of time. One is definitely weaker, especially since the delicate flower doesn't even fully disintegrate from unleashing all that energy. Instead only ONE single petal turns black. So they definitely are differently powerful, and it's out of the question that the delicate flower simply used all its energy at once.

The delicate flower in HK has basically no actual lore at all, only visuals with implications. The lore of the everbloom on the other hand doesn't seem to match either. To make it simple, we have no idea about all the flower lore across games.

And why the fucking flower enemy deals double damage.

[spiral widget]

oops wrong game

[gloomy salmon]

bro wrote a whole ass essay

[edgy nebula]

channel dead as hell today

[chilly gyro]

Ok so if Lace is the narrative foil/reflection to The Hollow Knight, then what dose that make Eva? Failed attempt at making something to contend with a god and left to be forgotten about as a great shame. Almost reminds me of Lost Kin, in a convoluted way.

[limpid summit]

Hm

I could see that

Or a parallel to the other vessels in general

It makes sense why LK doesn’t carry as much narrative weight but still

[edgy nebula]

we discussed and confirmed eva was an attempt to simply make a child and not to overthrow gms, no?

[plain gazelle]

we didn't confirm, one person stated it very confidently

[sinful nimbus]

(Said person is Eva)

[foggy fractal]

hi i am not eva

[edgy nebula]

https://tenor.com/view/rage-gif-14861945541396893506

are there any gay characters in silksong that live

[plain gazelle]

hornet

[edgy nebula]

she is an unconfirmed gay

[plain gazelle]

i was being the goofler, isn't green prince the only confirmed gay

[edgy nebula]

well there are the conchflies, but they arent outright confirmed and it's possible team cherry making both of them female was an oversight

[sinful nimbus]

Traitor's Child? Murdered.
Ze'mer? Vanishes into thin air
Nailsmith? Begs to be killed
Sheo? Beaten up by The Knight
Green princes? Dead.

What did they mean by this?

[sinful nimbus]

Where does the idea that they are both female come from

[edgy nebula]

nuu calls the dead conchfly she examines she despite the one you kill

[sinful nimbus]

How do you determine which one you killed

[edgy nebula]

i think there might be other evidence but im not sure

[edgy nebula]

good point

[foggy fractal]

is tc anti woke ?

😨

[plain gazelle]

GMS is trying to wake up and she's the villain so yeah

[limpid summit]

Okay

While this is a tuff headcanon

I doubt TC would assign a gender value to each conchfly and adjust the dialogue accordingly

Wait yeah they bury themselves in the ground

Never mind

Dude wtf

Raging conchfly is always male?

This is fridging

[grave stream]

why is it called lost verdania if i found it

[sonic sleet]

it's just a memory of that place verdania is long gone it's like finding 15 seconds of games gameplay footage and that being only proof it exists

[graceful grail]

For being called “lost” nothing there is “lost” as in Lost Lace

[proper wedge]

is it possible that herrah bound someone to become the weaver queen in hallownest and thats why she looks different? similar to hornet in the weaver queen ending

[craggy smelt]

now there's an idea...

[robust wagon]

Wait but I found lace too...

[crystal marsh]

<@&283547423706447872> memer

[gentle aspen]

That was five hours ago

[foggy fractal]

hm ?

sleepy you were alumni for like one week

[muted lantern]

Moderation relapse

[foggy fractal]

is the hk server in that desperate need of mods

true true

[balmy reef]

unironically yes

[foggy fractal]

hello necro

[balmy reef]

ey

[foggy fractal]

imagine the ishowspeed gif, that is my reaction to you guys not having enough mods

[gentle aspen]

It was two

And that was the plan

anyways

[foggy fractal]

oh I thought you quit for good

thought this channel finally got the better of you

[gentle aspen]

if I quit for good I’d have left

[foggy fractal]

I see

[stray fog]

[frigid belfry]

i mean there’s no evidence for this but sure

herrah wasn’t intended to be a weaver in hk anyway

[graceful grail]

I think the horns are from a Silk Seal “My Opinion”

[unborn nova]

How much do we know about Forgehome?

Forge Daughter talks about being from sent there.

[timber abyss]

nailsmith aint gay

[tawdry flare]

Are we bronze

[timber abyss]

?

[tawdry flare]

Nailsmith is gay

[timber abyss]

bruh that dont mean their gay

he js chillin with his hb

(homeboy)

[tawdry flare]

(Insert not-drake explain gif)

[timber abyss]

https://tenor.com/view/fig-gif-26092737

im not believing nailsmith is gay

thats js my opinion tho