sk-lore

[ember river]

Impossible, the mere presence of GMS and the system to keep her asleep destroyed entire civilizations and shifted the land

[low pilot]

well we dont know why the gods of thunder and rain fell

[ember river]

It's made very clear that the presence of a Higher Being near any civilization already has a substantial effect over it, even if they're not doing anything

[low pilot]

yah

[ember river]

So having one right below them and not noticing makes no sense

[whole holly]

i mean they couldn't reach White Lady in Cocoon, or Unn when sleeping, Hornet or Weaver was required to wake her up while song sustains, Godseeker prolly couldn't do much

[low pilot]

im in vc if u want me to show my thought process too

[whole holly]

why is it impossible?

[ember river]

@whole holly this

[whole holly]

i am interesting in thought process

[low pilot]

join vc 4

[whole holly]

yeah, White Lady and Unn had substantial effect and Godseeker couldn't access them, though

[whole holly]

what is that?

[low pilot]

silksong 4 the voice channel

[ember river]

He still sought them, Radiance was in a similarly weakened state and they still persisted

WL actively avoided them, Unn was decaying

[whole holly]

sorry i can't i don't like Voice talking i am not comfortable

[ember river]

Not only was GMS's power rising, she actively sought worship

[low pilot]

unn dying is a intresting topic to

[low pilot]

ok i mean u dont have to talk lol

[whole holly]

oh

[ember river]

She's described as "fading", though for a HB that probably has a similar result

[low pilot]

i can just show u the doc while u text and listen if ur that intrested

[whole holly]

i don't exactly know how it works but i will check it out, if i can just be present and have voice chat going on in background

[low pilot]

yah also the lifeblood creature/god

and blackwyrm

[ember river]

I refuse to acknowledge blackwyrm as an actual name of an actual wyrm

And hopefully we can clear more about the lifeblood creature soon enough

[twin dragon]

Gets namedropped, raises a shit ton of questions

never elaborated

[low pilot]

yah i think its more of a place

[whole holly]

i joined

[ember river]

It's not even mentioned as a wyrm

It's just mentioned as "the battle of the blackwyrm"

[low pilot]

yah

im showing the diagram in vc rn cus thers alot on here

[whole holly]

i assume GMS influence faded at first as well, depending on timeline which godseeker left, it is really flexible for them

[low pilot]

yah also the chorus things in cogwork core look like the god seeker a little

[whole holly]

that is probably not best example, other bugs look more similar in whispering vaults

[low pilot]

but genral concept and gms might know what godseekers r being one herself

[whole holly]

i don't think Godseekers and Citadel Civilization have much in common

[low pilot]

well yah

[low steppe]

Why do pollenicas and gahlias drop organs for the Broodfeast quest if they are supposed to be plants???

[twilit crest]

Just brass statues

[low pilot]

yah

[whole holly]

but Lands of storms could be nearby place we can explore through in Sea of Sorrow, or glimpse

[twilit crest]

Plants have organs

[low pilot]

i mean if the sea has a storm maybe

[low steppe]

are their organs considered meat? Because every organ item is called meat in the item description

[twilit crest]

Video game contrivance

[whole holly]

Lifeblood makes sense with fake gods, since lifeblood gives bugs strengths, it is possible it elevated false gods and attained worship, and False Gods got consumed by Lifeblood and died, plus Pharloom could have been fairly inaccessible for godseekers, especially if they wanted land rich with gods and eternal

[whole holly]

they got to see Radiance and Nightmare Heart and ignored Lifeblood related creature which has it's own room in Godhome

[low pilot]

omg that makes so much

yah

[whole holly]

and Shortcut to Pharloom was likely not present to them, they have been in exact same place clearly, and if Sea separates land of storms and pharloom , they had no access to Pharloom it seems, we have to use submarine thing that will be used in Sea of Sorrows, it lines up with cut content

pretty easy explanation

[low pilot]

yah the ocean is the border

[low pilot]

what about the abyss civilization and also if blackwyrm was a battle kinda implies a 3rd kingdom

[whole holly]

There are multiple kingdoms presumably

[low pilot]

i men yah and the nights of hn fought in this battle

[edgy nebula]

😔

you did forget everything red is grimm troupe though

[low pilot]

i mean somewhat but like hornet isnt or the long necked npc in hn

[edgy nebula]

technically no

[whole holly]

everything blue is lifeblood as well

[edgy nebula]

the pale steel’s description implies it’s hivesteel polished to it’s perfect state

fair yeah

[low pilot]

yah

[lean temple]

It's a kind of steel. There are many types of steel irl. HK also having various steels isn't outlandish

[viscid ridge]

I personally think that pale ore is used somewhere in hornets needle, but its just made differently by the hive. Like the hive specifically treat the metal so that it bands in a hexagon pattern to make it stronger. In real life banding doesn't really do that but i think its one of those unrealistic things that we dont really think about too hard.

[stray fog]

Masks also have pale ore, so ig its not too far fetched

[whole holly]

Steel that Steelhearts use are most likely different, maybe they are just known for Steel, maybe moreso than Hive

[viscid ridge]

Maybe not as much pale ore that makes up the knights or the hks weapon, but i still think it was used in its forging process

[stray fog]

But there's no evidence for hive steel having pale ore so I'm reluctant to belive jt

[lean temple]

Different compositions and/or forging techniques would make different kinds of steel. Just because the steel society is known for a particular kind doesn't mean other types of steel don't exist.

[whole holly]

that's my point

[lean temple]

The Steel society could have access to a special material or forging technique to make their particular type of steel

[viscid ridge]

Im pretty sure that the steelhearts are also made of pale ore, ive explained my reasoning, but i think we'll find out for certain in the future

Probably the steel dlc

[whole holly]

not far fetched

[stray fog]

Steel city mentioned ‼️‼️

[viscid ridge]

I also hope we get more mentions of the home spire

[whole holly]

i hope City of Steel and Steelhearts are not connected

[viscid ridge]

I wonder what thats about

[whole holly]

i think we will in Sea of Sorrows DLC

[stray fog]

Tc isn't leaving as many things unexplained in silksong as they did in hk

[viscid ridge]

I doubt it, its more suited for the steel dlc

[whole holly]

i thought you meant lifeblood spire, what is home spire?

[stray fog]

Home spear

Where zi was made or something

[whole holly]

oh, interesting

[whole holly]

home spear seems to be unrelated to City of Steel

[viscid ridge]

Not really, we stil aren't completely sure about lace and phantoms origins and such, and nore information on the conductors, which i think is pretty important, but im sure it will be explained in the future.

[stray fog]

I was talking about the stuff they mentioned only once throughout hk and never elaborated on
Blackwyrm, map of the nightmare realm, spiral focus, etc.

[viscid ridge]

I just think home spear is inside the city of steal, another name for the steal city, or maby like a outcrop close to the city

[viscid ridge]

Honestly i don't mind those that much, cause its just extra worldbuilding instead of part of the main plot.

[stray fog]

She says that the growstone is a rock of Zi's birth, so shell shards and steel are connected

[lean temple]

Assuming "City of Steel" is even what they call themselves

[whole holly]

it seems weird that City of Steel was where weaver was captured and also Steel Hearts lair where meddling in their affairs

[stray fog]

Gms called hallownest the "kingdom of the white wyrm" so ig she doesn't use names or something

[viscid ridge]

Like all the steelhearts call things weird names, so home spear is probably the city's name for the steel children, while the rest of the world calls it city of steel.

[lean temple]

Just uses her own names. Either she or the Citadel

[viscid ridge]

Like how pharloom calls hallownest, the kingdom of the white wyrm

[whole holly]

oh, interesting

didn't know that that changes everything

[viscid ridge]

Sharing a braincell

[stray fog]

I feel like the home spear would be some structure or rock formation
Not the entire city

"rock of the home spear" makes more sense that way

[stray fog]

🔥

[whole holly]

guys what is City of Steel quote, i mean Cradle Cage room description

[lean temple]

I believe the home spear is some outcrop of metal or steel

[viscid ridge]

Honestly i think the city would look kinda like those little spikes next to zi and jinn. So maybe there are more than one home spear, but zi specifically gave us a gift from hers.

[lean temple]

Considering the other definition of the word spear

[whole holly]

like crystal of crystal peak?

[lean temple]

Those could represent "the spires"

[whole holly]

was weaver staked to service by citadel or city of steel people?

[viscid ridge]

Exactly my thought

[limpid summit]

Likely the steel servants bcs of what scoot said

[viscid ridge]

Like these spears on the floor. This is what i imagine the city of steel looks like, but bigger

[lean temple]

Yea another one mentions one being found frail with age

[whole holly]

okay, so Weaver was servant to City of Steel and if they were steel hearts i don't think they would permit weaver to be taken without them interfering

[stray fog]

Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, mortally wounded. Tracked and taken in the Blackbarrens. Four Choristors, one Reed lost to task."

All of these verbs are what the citadel did
So I think the citadel staked her to service

[lean temple]

That hinges on what the Masters want. If they allowed it, the City could've let the Citadel take the Weaver

[stray fog]

Ignore this
Im on scoot's side now

[whole holly]

but they don't want their vassals to abandon their talk or service

[viscid ridge]

But we never see a half weaver like that, i think in that specific lore tablet, its refering to what the steel children did, not the citidel

[lean temple]

True but we don't know their plans regarding that Weaver. The Masters are most mysterious. If they opposed the taking, the Choir bugs would not have lived

[stray fog]

The weaver might have been another kind of servant

Sula and jiji look. Like the same species
So maybe all vassals/confessors are the same species
So no weaver vassal

[viscid ridge]

Like staked to service could refer to the weaver spawn being a half weaver half whatever species jiji and the one in silksong is.

[whole holly]

if they want chaos and GMS wants order, why didn't they oppose it, it kinda weakens their connection to city of steel

[viscid ridge]

So even though she is a weaver she probably had to serve the masters like all the other vassels are

[stray fog]

This reminds me of the cut sprite where a weaver is tied to a wall and her mask is cut

[lean temple]

We don't know if they want chaos. Their society is extremely ordered. Probably they want order of a different kind

[viscid ridge]

I personally think that its not literal. I think its just a fancy way of saying she was forced to serve

[viscid ridge]

Thats widow

[stray fog]

Same

[stray fog]

Yeah

[whole holly]

yea but Steel Seer threatens hornet if she refuses quest, weaver wouldn't be able to continue service if they were willfully taken, if city of steel was trully steelheart's it would be weird case and not fit with patterns they expressed regarding abandoning service

[viscid ridge]

The reason i think she wasn't literally staked is because she killed a good few of the choir before being captured, meaning she wasn't physically constrained

[whole holly]

not Order and different Order aren't same, not order would likely mean chaos/entropy

[stray fog]

Maybe they didn't want to mess with pharloom. 1/12th of a weaver wouldn't be worth that. Much trouble

[viscid ridge]

My point still stands

[whole holly]

i don't think they are threatened by Pharloom, given that they threatened hornet and vassals and confessors can summon void GMS could be harmed by

[stray fog]

True

[viscid ridge]

Even if she was in the landshe was captured she wouldn't be physically staked considering she killed the bugs trying to capture her

[stray fog]

I guess the pharloom bugs forcefully took the weaver away

It didn't have to be a deal with the masters

[viscid ridge]

I imagine if she was already captured the citidel could just easily trap her without casualties

[whole holly]

or they didn't intervene, they task others, maybe that's why sharpe was hunting down hornet to regain weaver? since GMS likely binded weaver in question, i don't think they can stake GMS to service

[stray fog]

I can't wait for more steel lore

[lean temple]

This was ages ago and they would've known that Weaver is long gone

[whole holly]

maybe masters aren't connected to City of Steel, since City of Steel didn't seem to intervene too much, masters aren't threatened by Higher Beings in their vassals can summon void casually

[viscid ridge]

As it seems nou whatever the steel city is they seem incredibly powerful

[whole holly]

yea, in other case City of Steel could be entirely different from Home Spear

[whole holly]

not as powerful as Citadel, which would be weird if they were connected to Steel Hearts

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i doubt this. Im pretty sure they went straight to grandmother silk, cause we see her cage in the cradle 😅

[viscid ridge]

Honestly, i kinda think that the steelhearts are more powerful, in both games and hornets dialogue about the masters, i think even she knows they shouldn't be messed with

[whole holly]

she most likely wasn't physically staked, it would be weird if someone was physically staked to service

[viscid ridge]

But we don't know yet, but the masters sound very menacing

[lean temple]

I mean the connection seems extremely intuitive. The bit on why the Masters didn't retaliate can be shrugged as them having a further vision or different plan that they want to see to the end.

[zinc vortex]

Where the wyrms at

[whole holly]

most likely because she wasn't physically staked, which would explain casualties more

[stray fog]

I wonder if all the steel stuff will have lore about steel soul

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but as said, those are casualties from trying to capture her, not casualties from accidentally letting her go

[zinc vortex]

Wasn’t it like bigger then the pale king

[stray fog]

Idk if they'll touch respawning in the context of lore

[zinc vortex]

Or no

Hmmmmm

Well we know the king of fools isn’t it

That’s the red wyrm

Hmmmm

[whole holly]

that is different from what we know about them, even little patterns make it unlikely, they threaten hornet with service, but they are inactive against GMS which can be defeated by hornet, doesn't make sense

[viscid ridge]

Im honestly still a very big fan of the collesium being the blackwyrm theory

[zinc vortex]

That doesn’t rly make sense

[lean temple]

Who said they're scared?

[zinc vortex]

The battle wasn’t near hallownesg

[lean temple]

You're making assumptions

[stray fog]

We actually only see zi threatening hornet
No direct word from the masters

[iron valve]

Silksong DLC theory

[viscid ridge]

The lucky thing about the theory, is that there is literally 0 evidence to prove or disprove, so im pretty comfortable still believing it

[stray fog]

The colosseum isn't black though

[zinc vortex]

True but just think about it, the black wyrm was killed in the battle

[lean temple]

If it has no evidence then it can be discared without consideration

[zinc vortex]

Ok

Yall

Someone pull up the battle of the black wyrm

And other things about it

Please

[viscid ridge]

You do you, i think its cool 😎

[oak palm]

Hey giys i got caught up in weaver familial discourse in sk discussion

What we think

[stray fog]

There's only one single line about it unfortunately

[whole holly]

that's beside point, their inaction doesn't fit with their pattern of behavior, which is hunting down vassal that summons void, threatening hornet who can defeated GMS and so on, they don't even respond to minor inconveniences with inaction

[zinc vortex]

Can you pull it up it’s still useful

Please

[viscid ridge]

Theres literally one mention of it in a sentence

[zinc vortex]

Ik still useful

Like

[viscid ridge]

How do we pull up wiki stuff again?

[limpid summit]

!wiki blackwyrm

[lean temple]

That's a fair note. I believe they have other plans, which involve letting the Citadel do its thing.

[viscid ridge]

!wiki blackwyrm

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Wyrms

Hollow Knight Wiki

Wyrms

The Wyrms were ancient beings who pulled bugs into their thrall. They were larger than Bardoon, though they had fewer limbs. They also had the ability of foresight, meaning that they could predict the future to some extent. One of these Wyrms died in Kingdom's Edge, transforming into the Pale King. A Lore Tablet in the Fungal Wastes remarks on him having prescience as well.
There is a reference to another being called the Blackwyrm in White Defender's Journal entry. This creature shares the word "wyrm" in its name; however, it is unclear whether it is related to the Wyrms or not.
At a certain point, all Wyrms di…

[zinc vortex]

What if the void is the black wyrms blood

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Wyrms

Hollow Knight Wiki

Wyrms

The Wyrms were ancient beings who pulled bugs into their thrall. They were larger than Bardoon, though they had fewer limbs. They also had the ability of foresight, meaning that they could predict the future to some extent. One of these Wyrms died in Kingdom's Edge, transforming into the Pale King. A Lore Tablet in the Fungal Wastes remarks on him having prescience as well.
There is a reference to another being called the Blackwyrm in White Defender's Journal entry. This creature shares the word "wyrm" in its name; however, it is unclear whether it is related to the Wyrms or not.
At a certain point, all Wyrms di…

[zinc vortex]

Thanks

[viscid ridge]

!wiki white defender

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/White_Defender

Hollow Knight Wiki

White Defender

The White Defender is a hidden boss in Hollow Knight introduced in the Hidden Dreams update. He is the Dream form of the Dung Defender, at the peak of his past glory.

Theme

White Defender
──────────
Godmaster content Gods And Glory (Part A)

Health

1600

Reward

300 Essence (First Defeat)
Lifeblood content Dung-Statue of the Knight (Fifth Defeat)

Journal Kills

1

Gender

Male

Voice

William Pellen

[cedar skiff]

FACT: william pellen MADE UP the battle of blackwyrm so people would THINK HOLLOW KNIGHT HAS LORE

[stray fog]

The Champion's Call, the Knotted Grove, the Battle of the Blackwyrm... I remember it all. I will carry those glories with me always... until we meet again.

[zinc vortex]

Doubt

[whole holly]

regardless, their connection is weakened and can't be justified with intuition alone

[viscid ridge]

!wiki white defender journal entry

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Wyrms
Not the correct result? Use !wiki page white defender journal entry for a direct link or !wiki search white defender journal entry for a list of all hits.

Hollow Knight Wiki

Wyrms

The Wyrms were ancient beings who pulled bugs into their thrall. They were larger than Bardoon, though they had fewer limbs. They also had the ability of foresight, meaning that they could predict the future to some extent. One of these Wyrms died in Kingdom's Edge, transforming into the Pale King. A Lore Tablet in the Fungal Wastes remarks on him having prescience as well.
There is a reference to another being called the Blackwyrm in White Defender's Journal entry. This creature shares the word "wyrm" in its name; however, it is unclear whether it is related to the Wyrms or not.
At a certain point, all Wyrms di…

[viscid ridge]

There we go

[stray fog]

This is the journal entry

[zinc vortex]

Ok stop the wikis what if the void was the black wyrms blood

It’s a liquid and wyrms live for eons

Yk

[viscid ridge]

I never use the wiki thing i wanted to see if i can actually use it correctly

[zinc vortex]

What if the battle of the black wyrm was for control of hollowness

🤔

[stray fog]

I believe that theory

[zinc vortex]

WAIT

[stray fog]

I believe that one too except for the void part

[zinc vortex]

WHAT IF THE BLACK WYRM WAS BORN FROM VOID

[whole holly]

same connection as City of Steel and SteelHearts

[zinc vortex]

HENCE THE SHADE LORD

[stray fog]

Why would that weaver stay in a void kingdom

[zinc vortex]

OMG WAIT

WHAT IF THE SHADE LORD HAS THE ESSENCE OF THE BLACK WYRM

[whole holly]

no

[zinc vortex]

THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE ACTUALLY

but idk

Ye

[viscid ridge]

Chad collesium blackwyrm theory vs sigma every other blackwyrm theory

[zinc vortex]

Hmmmmmmmmmm

[whole holly]

Shade Lords essence is from it's own shade ig

[zinc vortex]

Booooooo

Ye wait

Ok the void used to have people and their own god

The pale king was praised as a god

[zinc vortex]

What if the black wyrm was the first in hollownest and was the god of the forgotten void people

[stray fog]

They had no god

According to lemm

[zinc vortex]

Hm ok

[viscid ridge]

They didnt have a god, they huffed straight void lmao

[zinc vortex]

lol

Ok

Hm

[stray fog]

Imagine if humans worshipped magma

[zinc vortex]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-spongebob-squarepants-think-thinking-hmm-gif-11570469479394618754

[whole holly]

it is more likely that Abyss Creature is Blackwyrm but in retrospect, TC shouldn't have put it into game, as our only evidence is creature that's black or worm, neither is concrete

[whole holly]

AC did worship void though

[viscid ridge]

I mean america whorships oil, so maybe the ancients were onto something

[twin dragon]

Blackwyrm doesn't even seem to be a creature

most likely a place

[whole holly]

and humans worshipped sun at one point

[zinc vortex]

Maybe a operation of the void ?

[twin dragon]

Now they worship eldritch beings in their image

[zinc vortex]

Something that came from the void

Ok

Hmm

[whole holly]

could be, but what place? ancient basin, Abyss?

[twin dragon]

Why does it have to be in hallownest

[zinc vortex]

The darkness hmmm

[twin dragon]

I'd assume it to be like a wyrm carcass or some shit

[zinc vortex]

What if it’s the name of the black wyrm

[whole holly]

i mean any connection is valid

[viscid ridge]

I still think, thinking of the collesium as the blackwyrm goes a long way to explaining what the lord of fools is, and why it parallels the pale king so much.

[stray fog]

I still belive that blackwyrm was an actual wyrm

[twin dragon]

Like genuinely the ONLY thing we have going for it

is the name

[zinc vortex]

Hollownest is super ancient and a key place ig

[twin dragon]

at this point we can just shit out anything

[zinc vortex]

True

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Ok

[twin dragon]

blackwyrm is another kingdom and is zote's home

wtv

[stray fog]

That's the beauty of speculative discussions

I love pulling things out of my ass

[viscid ridge]

Just let them have their fun though

[whole holly]

yeah, but games says White Wyrm and Blackwyrm, instance of wyrm being used makes it related to Wyrm, if it outside hallownest why did they fight for? were they invading?

[twin dragon]

Hey...

[stray fog]

Not like that 😭

I meant making things up

[lean temple]

"And you stuck in a whole secret boss for it, which is wild.

Gibson: It is fun to explore that kind of side lore, that strange steel society.

Given the steel assassin has to show up, I imagine we’ll be seeing more of that in the DLC.

Gibson: That would be a good opportunity to uncover more about them."
Given they have a whole society, the City of Steel is a probable candidate.

[twin dragon]

white wyrm?

i lowkey forgot about that

[viscid ridge]

And to be fair its what theyve been doing for like 10 minutes

[lean temple]

@whole holly took me a while to find this

[twin dragon]

white AND black wyrm

the ying and yang

fusing into the ultimate being, menderbug

[stray fog]

🔥

W

[viscid ridge]

Nuh uh, the final boss is zango

[whole holly]

that's refreshing, but it is probable not confirmed it seems

[stray fog]

Wdym

[whole holly]

probable candidate is very non-confirmation

it implies that there are other candidates

[stray fog]

But it confirms that the city of steel is indeed the masters's city

[whole holly]

not that i have issue with City of Steel being related to Steel Hearts

[viscid ridge]

I mean was that ever a speculation

[whole holly]

can you give me source?

[lean temple]

The bloomberg interview

[stray fog]

It was being discussed earlier

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but i mean was it ever really thought that the masters weren't connected to the city of steel 😅🤣

Like that seems pretty obvious

[stray fog]

I agree

[whole holly]

it's not here : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2025-11-28/the-makers-of-hollow-knight-silksong-aren-t-done-just-yet

City of Steel is outside quote brackets, not found in article which only mentions strange steel society

[whole holly]

i still stand by this

City of Steel and Kingdom of White Wyrm are names given by Pharloom, realm name could be anything

[whole holly]

little patterns make it unlikely, they threaten hornet with service, but they are inactive against GMS and Citadel taking weaver that is staked to service, which can be defeated by hornet, doesn't make sense , we need more explanation and connection

[viscid ridge]

Its definitely there i just checked

[viscid ridge]

Probably home spear or something similar

[whole holly]

City of Steel nowhere to be found

[viscid ridge]

Yeah cause its further inti the article

[whole holly]

i used Browser find function

[whole holly]

zero confirmed cases by browser find function

[dense ridge]

Saying the City of Steel and the "steel society" cannot be proven to be related is so in line with the usual horrendous takes I see in this channel on the daily

[whole holly]

Steel is not exclusive to Steelhearts, Hivesteel exists made by Hive, there could be other sources of steel, and Weaver couldn't be taken from Steelhearts given how they operate

[lean temple]

Thank you for informing me of the existence of this emoji

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but im pretty sure steel society and the literal steel assasins are connected to the steelhearts 🤣

I doubt there are a society of hivesteel needles lmao 🤣

[whole holly]

like i said, little patterns make it unlikely, steelhearts threaten hornet with service, but they are inactive against GMS and Citadel taking weaver that is staked to service? GMS and Citadel can be defeated by hornet, doesn't make sense, but i guess you guys are ignoring this flaw

[viscid ridge]

Literally nothing you said proves your point?

[whole holly]

yes, it weakens by the fact that Steel Hearts would let bugs in service abandon them, or be taken away, or let weaver given up their service, which is why they wouldn't let Citadel take weaver if Steel Hearts were connected to City of Steel

[viscid ridge]

[viscid ridge]

Once again, nothing you just said proves anything

[dense ridge]

This whole channel:

https://tenor.com/view/caine-tadc-digital-circus-ming-assuming-gif-3076268463453997119

[whole holly]

it weakens connection to Steel Hearts(who never seem to let serviced bug stop servicing) and City of Steel(who were inactive to Citadel taking Weaver)

[viscid ridge]

More accurately, its shifts between these on an hourly basis

[whole holly]

you are the wall in this case and ignorant panther too

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i bet the steel seer and the steel society has nothing to do with one another

[whole holly]

look at you ignoring my point, and not understanding it🤣

[viscid ridge]

Im taking your point and showing how it literally doesn't make sense so thats on you

[whole holly]

it does, you didn't disprove anything, Steel Society and City of Steel have different and opposing characteristics, one is capitulating/inactive against Citadel, other is tasking and enforcing will, punishing bugs for minor inconvenience, that's a fact, how are they same, because of name?

[whole holly]

same arguments as Shamans being void, istg

[viscid ridge]

Quoting Hoag's Object "Saying the City of Steel and the "steel society" cannot be proven to be related is so in line with the usual horrendous takes I see in this channel on the daily" 🤣

[limpid summit]

Zi doesn’t mention a city it’s not insane to say that the city of steel isn’t related to the hearts because the Citadel uses weird names but like

[whole holly]

gotta spew same stuff over because you can't come up with arguments

[limpid summit]

Steel is a word like pale in the sense that most uses of steel are deliberate

There’s nothing suggesting or disproving either side

I personally believe it but there is truly nothing to go off of

[whole holly]

Pale or Steel things don't have universal source or location, it is likely that there are multiple societies uses steel

[whole holly]

i mean, , City of Steel and Steel Society have different and opposing characteristics, one is capitulating/inactive against Citadel, other is tasking and enforcing will, punishing bugs for minor inconvenience.

[limpid summit]

I wouldn’t say we get enough about the city of steel to make those assumptions

[cedar skiff]

wow the craws are pale beings i knew it

[limpid summit]

It’s entirely possible that there is a society in the city that has different practices from the steelhearts, like if a Weaver was kidnapped by Mantises in Hallownest

The city of steel is just a location

[cedar skiff]

city of steel as a dlc will always be flimsy in the lore solely because most steel lore is locked behind a whole different mode

[whole holly]

i mean they couldn't prevent Citadel taking weaver staked to service, there are reasons that Steel Heart and Master would be able to

[limpid summit]

Again we don’t know enough about the city

Maybe their power is concentrated at the center and their powerhouses are the assassins they send out

[dense ridge]

Or maybe they didn't prevent the Citadel from taking that Weaver

Stop making assumptions

[viscid ridge]

Im sure in the actual dlc it wont be steel soul exclusive

[limpid summit]

Sharpe will not be steel soul exclusive

Assumedly Sula still tries to do his thing in base game like how Jiji exists in steel soul

[whole holly]

if they didn't prevent Citadel, that breaks patterns they show with hunting down Sula and threatening Hornet for Disobedience and inconvenience

[limpid summit]

We just don’t get it

[viscid ridge]

Faulty theories based on faulty assumptions

[limpid summit]

Perhaps they are more focused on situations like the latter than a single slave

Infinite possibilities off of one line of dialogue

I’m playing devils advocate but it isn’t difficult

It’s like Blackwyrm it’s only one line

[dense ridge]

The Masters never directly spoke to Hornet. Zi only implies that they could punish her if she were one of their servants.

[viscid ridge]

I assume that zi and sharpe wont have any involvement with one another. We might get extra dialogue from zi about sharpe, but i doubt their stories will interact much.

[whole holly]

hornet does become single slave if accepting their quest and threatening them if denied, i think they would react to Weaver not being able to continue their service and effectively

[limpid summit]

Hornet is half weaver and half Wyrm to be fair

One eighth weaver could be a slightly stronger bug

[whole holly]

that proves my point though, if they can punish Wyrm/Weaver hybrid, why were they inactive against Citadel

[dense ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/little-man-little-dan-gif-21792394

[limpid summit]

We don’t know enough about the steel masters to say that they would defend one of their random slaves to the death, if they were even the ones doing the enslaving

That is the bottom line

A connection cannot be established or disputed

[whole holly]

Masters oppose order, they would oppose order of citadel likely

[stray fog]

There's simply too many possibilities
And not enough information

[whole holly]

lack of arguments made you desperate?

[limpid summit]

“Not order they seek” doesn’t mean the masters make it their mission to oppose all orderly societies though

It’s a platitude

We don’t see any signs of steel master intervention in old Hallownest

[cedar skiff]

yeah i think so but i wonder how they’ll handle making the connections to existing steel content without it being confusing if you arent aware of it. but they managed to go very long in silksong without direct references to hk so im sure theyll handle it

[whole holly]

but Citadel's Order would directly intervene with their rule and weaver being staked to service

[whole holly]

proved my point, thanks

[viscid ridge]

Trying to convince you of anything is impossible considering you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed

[dense ridge]

yw boo

[limpid summit]

If you’re taking Jinn’s statement to the extreme, slavery implies a caste system of sorts which is a form of order

[whole holly]

sharpest tool in shed would have basic pattern recognition, you rely on intuition, i rely on patterns and reasoning

[limpid summit]

So it can’t be the Masters doing the enslabing

[viscid ridge]

Something something, comedy mirrors reality 🤣

[whole holly]

proving me right

[limpid summit]

The Weaver was enslaved in the City of Steel, that doesn’t mean it was enslaved by the Steel Masters (hypothetically, if that’s where they are)
Elder Hu was killed in the kingdom of Hallownest by the Mantises, you would say he was killed in Hallownest but that doesn’t imply that the Hallownest military killed him

That’s just where the Weaver was

It could have been a slave in a traveling group or something

[whole holly]

Order could be welfare, most likely if we use deductive reasoning, i doubt they mean obedience or system structure they have

[whole holly]

Staked to Service kinda eradicates traveling, and none of these hypothetical explanations are substantiated, not as much as possibility that City of Steel and Steel Society could be different entities

[dense ridge]

They got welfare in the City of Steel?

[whole holly]

given difference on how they operate

[limpid summit]

What do you mean different entities

[whole holly]

if Steel Society regulated Void and City of Steel wasn't ruined by Void yes

[dense ridge]

What are you talking about?

[limpid summit]

The words City of Steel don’t imply that it’s a bastion with only the Masters and their vassals

It’s a physical location

[whole holly]

unrelated and separate, because steel is not exclusive to Steel Hearts, that's like saying only Shamans have Soul because they have Soul Spells

[limpid summit]

If I’m getting you right you’re saying that the Masters or one of their servants letting a slave be captured or killed on their home turf is inconsistent with their characterization

[viscid ridge]

Me every time nika tries to make a point

[limpid summit]

Ergo City of Steel cannot be Steel Masters

[whole holly]

it could be be like Underworks is to citadel

[oak palm]

Most consistent game evers

[dense ridge]

I mean air isn't exlcusive to Hallownest either but that's kind of a nothing argument

[limpid summit]

Beneath the city of steel could also be some sort of criminal underworld disconnected from the city

[limpid summit]

However there just isn’t that much to say about them or the steel servants

[viscid ridge]

I have never been more jealous of not having a nitro sticker as i am now

[limpid summit]

It’s not worth discounting the possibility

[dense ridge]

The word "steel" is clearly related to the Masters/Steelhears/whatever you want to call them in almost every instance of its usage

[limpid summit]

Eh there are a few situations

Hivesteel and then the like yarnaby spines are called steel right

Still

[dense ridge]

I did say almost

[limpid summit]

It’s a meaningless distinction

We can’t say either way but we shouldn’t discount either possibility

[viscid ridge]

It really is

[whole holly]

it is unlikely they were staked by Steel Heart, which is what people imply that Weavers staking is related to Masters one way or another

[dense ridge]

There are some times when it's clearly just talking about the alloy, but anyone with common sense and a little bit of media literacy can tell when it's referring to the Masters or their steel society

Or the steel society

[whole holly]

there are multiple instances of steel usage, it doesn't have to be Steel Hearts and Masters

[dense ridge]

There are like 3 times the word is used and it's not referring to something related to Steel Soul mode

Give or take

[whole holly]

trying to justify assumptions and intuition, it is just as likely that it could be another Society that man manufactures

[limpid summit]

Zi’s “home spear” does make me think of skyscrapers but that’s sort of ambiguous

[dense ridge]

Sula's needolin dialogue aslo refers to "spires"

[whole holly]

i mean , i think it would still impact their national security

[limpid summit]

The masters have a “long gaze”

That mostly refers to their general aims though

I don’t think they’d be completely on lock when it came to every little enslaved individual

[whole holly]

Steel Hearts tend to enslave individuals, it wouldn't be shocking that they would stake weaver to service, if they were connected to City of Steel, which is where logical flaws come from

[limpid summit]

I wouldn’t say that

What logical flaws

They could have just given up after losing the choristors and left

[whole holly]

.

[whole holly]

it is unlikely , i think they would permit summoning void if it impacted their national security

[limpid summit]

I mean we can see a chamber was sent to capture Hornet as well and they succeeded

I don’t think the Masters would pull out all the stops to save one vassal

It’s not unreasonable that GMS just won out that time

[wet shadow]

Seems like the masters can get as many vassals as needed if they are willing to kill them off

[whole holly]

why not, Steel Hearts threaten compressing over minor inconvenience(denying the wish)

[limpid summit]

That’s not what Zi says

[whole holly]

they are only willing it they aren't doing their service accordingly

[limpid summit]

That’s what happens to those bound by the Masters who deny their wishes

It’s easier for the Masters to compress someone already under their control

[wet shadow]

What is compression anyway

[limpid summit]

Zi says “You would reject the role? Are you not bound by the Masters? This is what would happen if you were.”

[whole holly]

which does fit with weaver staked to service, they care about vassals denying wishes

[limpid summit]

The weaver was captured

We don’t know what compression entails it’s not as if the masters can compress people at will

[whole holly]

yes, but i still don't think they would respond with inaction

[limpid summit]

And they didn’t

Eight choristors one Reed

[dense ridge]

You don't know that they did

All we know is a weaver was captured

[limpid summit]

Hornet is already very strong and they beat her

[whole holly]

if they did something they would be effective at it, their vassals can summon the void

[dense ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/caine-tadc-digital-circus-ming-assuming-gif-3076268463453997119

[whole holly]

non-argument

[limpid summit]

Shit happens

[whole holly]

not to masters, given the resources

[limpid summit]

Imagine if PK sent the five great knights to save every Hallownest citizen

[limpid summit]

These guys have been mentioned twice we have no idea what they can and cannot do

[whole holly]

they would send spare knight/warrior

[wispy rampart]

Maybe zi came to pharloom to take back that one weaver?

[whole holly]

they can compress they can summon the void, both of which have terrible effects

[limpid summit]

It’s not unreasonable at all for a group of Citadel bugs manipulated by GMS who captured Hornet (extra strong) to also fend off some randoms in pursuit of one slave

[wet shadow]

They are most likely some of the most powerful people in the hk universe

[whole holly]

Steels don't send randoms, they could send summoned savior

[dense ridge]

Dude you don't even know what compression is

[limpid summit]

I don’t think the masters would summon void to save one slave

That would probably kill the slave too

And summoned savior is a special case

[wet shadow]

Yeah summoned savior is sulas last ditch effort to save herself

[spark valve]

that is uh super not what summoned savior is

sula is going rogue

just wants to leave

[wispy rampart]

Not all masters are evil like we see in HK so maybe they just let her go

[limpid summit]

I don’t think the masters are great

Well

Again we just don’t know enough about them

Certainly not enough to say they’re too strong to let one slave be done away with and that’s why City of Steel isn’t their city

[wispy rampart]

True

[whole holly]

i know Steel Seer Zi would never wish upon another

[whole holly]

i mean, despite everything,both paths are possible, i just like playing devils advocate

[viscid ridge]

Did you make a typo?

[whole holly]

i mean, she never met you, maybe she would wish it upon you

[viscid ridge]

I ment like did you make a typo, cause if you did people might misunderstand your argument more.

And based on the edit, you realized, so yw

[whole holly]

Scoot you genius

I mean TC could come up with explanations but flaws and plot holes are still there

[viscid ridge]

To be fair whenever something doesn't fit your exact theory you call it a plothole 💀

[whole holly]

to be fair, you have no reading comprehension, there were logically flaws into Steel Society and City of Steel being same, behaving way they do

[sinful nimbus]

wym

[whole holly]

?

[sinful nimbus]

what do you mean

[subtle maple]

well i'd imagine being compressed would hurt

[whole holly]

City of Steel and Steel Society have different and opposing characteristics, one is capitulating/inactive against Citadel, other is tasking and enforcing will, punishing bugs for minor inconvenience.

[subtle maple]

uh where'd that city of steel info come from

[whole holly]

if they are indeed same, there needs to be intricate explanation

[sinful nimbus]

None of them really interact with the Citadel

[whole holly]

Weaver was staked beneath City of Steel, in Cage Descriptions in citadel

[sinful nimbus]

The City of Steel just had a weaver stolen from them

[whole holly]

Citadel captured weaver beneath city of steel

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[whole holly]

can you read up, i don't want to explain it twice

[subtle maple]

i mean, we don't rlly know do we now

[viscid ridge]

Your entire reason for calling it a plothole is based on a assumption you made about something we have no ability to know what it properly means, and then you have the audacity to act like tc is the one that made something inconsistent with the lore lmao

[subtle maple]

we only know that hallownest was isolated, but like pharloom could've interacted with other kingdoms

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah as Apple Egg said they didn't necessarily do nothing

[twin dragon]

ESPECIALLY YOU HIGHER'?

[whole holly]

it is not assumption, it is accurate deduction

[twin dragon]

you mean they've also done that to higher beings

[sinful nimbus]

ok? but as it stands there is no indication of a relation between the city of steel and pharloom

The only thing we know is that the Citadel nabbed a weaver from there

[twin dragon]

Also the "we have suffered it"

is horrific

[subtle maple]

but would it be ok to assume that there was no relation?

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, my left asscheek has a better accurate deduction than that 🤣

[twin dragon]

the vassals are actually result of the process

[sinful nimbus]

That's the default assumption yes

[whole holly]

if they did, they should have been effective given that Steel Assassin Sharpe, Sula, Compression by Masters, if they acted , they should have been effective

[twin dragon]

Don't have anything saying otherwise at the moment

so i'll roll with it

[subtle maple]

ig

[whole holly]

talk with your left asscheek, why are you on here, i am pretty sure both cheeks want to say something to your face

[sinful nimbus]

They might not care that much to immediately retaliate

[viscid ridge]

You act like you are some arbiter of the lore, even though almost everything that leaves your mouth is entirely wrong

[lethal lava]

https://youtube.com/shorts/QrPkBlMoKvM?si=zrt883mDyFcRA0-6

[sinful nimbus]

We only know of them sending out Sharpe and co. when someone meddles with the void

[twin dragon]

Sharpe could be a servant to the masters just like sula is, but serving another purpose

[subtle maple]

wsp with this toxicity here

[whole holly]

i mean Hornet was warned for denying quest, i am pretty sure weaver bound by masters would have been at least defended, i don't think they would be inactive

[twin dragon]

The weaver could've been, yknow, hiding

[whole holly]

either come up with counterargument or if it bothers you just leave channel

[sinful nimbus]

If you want to assume they compress people for stuff like that why not just assume that they compressed all the citadel bugs they could get their hands on

[whole holly]

regardless, weaver was staked to service

[twin dragon]

Whatever that could mean

[whole holly]

not compress but react, we know they can

[sinful nimbus]

and they might've

[whole holly]

multiple ways actually

[twin dragon]

Compression could be a thing within their ranks to punish treachery

[whole holly]

so they deliberately ineffectively reacted?

[sinful nimbus]

Not deliberately

Idk what you want them to do. Go kill GMS?

[viscid ridge]

A lot of people have and will later on, but it goes into the one ear and out the other.

[whole holly]

we know they had solutions why not send steel assassin sharpe or summoned savoir against GMS or even compress GMS

[sinful nimbus]

GMS is a god

[twin dragon]

are we deadass

[sinful nimbus]

They also might not know much about what they're up against

[twin dragon]

I fucking hate the sun, let me go and punch the sun

[sinful nimbus]

That's way more risk than its worth

[subtle maple]

hk has u covered bro

[twin dragon]

Oh yeah that happened mb

[whole holly]

it is silly that they have no preventative measures

[sinful nimbus]

that's an assumption

[subtle maple]

they probly don't care abt gms, like they didn't care for the radiance

[whole holly]

compression can happen to higher beings, presumably, summoned savior would have been effective as well

[sinful nimbus]

No?

[whole holly]

it impacted their national security

[sinful nimbus]

Summoned Savior is a bit different from a portal directly to the abyss they also don't like using void

[subtle maple]

how did it impact their national security when pharloom isn't even their nation

[viscid ridge]

I dont like nika in the slightest, but he is right on that point

[whole holly]

they have no effective preventative measure then

[sinful nimbus]

What

[sinful nimbus]

Elaborate

[whole holly]

Weaver was in their territory, staked to service

[viscid ridge]

The higher being part atleast, zi mentions it to hornet, idk what the summoned savior one is about

[twin dragon]

"Especially higher"

[sinful nimbus]

That's likely about free will (Much like Jinn's dialogue)

Hornet isn't a higher being

[twin dragon]

In part she is

[sinful nimbus]

No

[viscid ridge]

She is, and even zi calls her a higher being

[subtle maple]

the weaver probly did what the weavers in hallownest did and lived beside the kingdom not caring for it's affairs, this is also assuming the city of steel even is where the masters are but if it is, y would they care abt some leeches

[whole holly]

regardless, who is to say that GMS would have resisted compression if Hornet(who can defeat GMS) is vulnerable to it

[sinful nimbus]

But she doesn't

[whole holly]

no, they were enslaved, quite literally

[sinful nimbus]

You guys know the word higher can be used outside of higher beings right...?

[viscid ridge]

"Especially you higher" "Pale it"

[sinful nimbus]

ok so you don't

[whole holly]

distinction is meaningless, who is to say GMS would have resisted compression if Hornet(who can defeat GMS) is vulnerable to it

[twin dragon]

What other possible context could this be referring to

[subtle maple]

she's as much of a higher being as the siblings

[sinful nimbus]

We don't even know what compression is lol

[sinful nimbus]

So, not.

[twin dragon]

Eva also differentiates hornet from "mortal bugs" which is something

[subtle maple]

well if you share that view on all of them then you're right

[viscid ridge]

Not true, the siblings are completely higher beings, while hornet is only in part, but she is still a higher being nonetheless

[whole holly]

but we know it is bad, effective against disobedience

[sinful nimbus]

Yes for people like Hornet

Gods are uh hard to kill

[twin dragon]

effective against disobedience

you do know that uh

torture and death come in many ways

[viscid ridge]

Once again refer to zi's comment

[subtle maple]

and hornet is easy to kill?

[sinful nimbus]

Higher can be used outside of the term higher being actually

[twin dragon]

Not in this context

[sinful nimbus]

Proof?

[viscid ridge]

Sigh

[twin dragon]

Wym "proof", what other meaning of "higher" could fit in

[whole holly]

guys Star is right here, child of Higher Beings aren't always higher beings, higher sapience could be meaning in that sense, but distinction is meaningless as hornet is capable of defeating GMS, if hornet is vulnerable to something so is GMS, most likely

[twin dragon]

Plus, another word would be used regardless

[sinful nimbus]

People with free will

Y'know like how Jinn in the first game notes TK has free will

[crystal marsh]

Hornet isn't a higher being regardless

[whole holly]

that's bad explanation, if you are going to argue higher sapience and all that, at least quote jinn

[subtle maple]

you need proof for this bro

[twin dragon]

Higher, while it could be used in such context, doesn't usually get used in this context shocker

[sinful nimbus]

...I did point it out yes

[whole holly]

yea, ik, that is point i agree with

[sinful nimbus]

Except that's what the context indicates

[whole holly]

you didn't exactly cite jinn's words

[sinful nimbus]

Does it matter

[crystal marsh]

children/offspring of HBs are not themselves HBs
Moths (created from Radiance), Mosskin (created from Unn), Troupe Master Grimm (created from Nightmare's Heart)
none of these beings are HBs

[twin dragon]

Higher's a curious choice of word to be used here aswell

[dense ridge]

No guys you don't get it. Higher isn't actually referring to higher beings, just like the City of Steel is actually unrelated to the mysterious steel society!

[whole holly]

Mosskin is child of Unn but not Higher Being, Grimmchild is not higher being, Mothkin from Radiance aren't as well

[sinful nimbus]

Not really

[viscid ridge]

Yall 2 are perfect for eachother honestly 🤣

[crystal marsh]

hoag can you not be an ass

[sinful nimbus]

Higher is a real word with an actual meaning it doesn't always have to be used for higher beings lmao

[subtle maple]

but they're not rlly their children, they're more their creations

[twin dragon]

Yes, plenty of other good options to describe someone with a will

[sinful nimbus]

Even the first game used the term "higher being" to refer to non-deities if anything you should take issue with that

[whole holly]

higher intellect as well

[sinful nimbus]

Why use them when this word does the trick

[crystal marsh]

the analogy still works regardless, however Vessels themselves are not HBs either despite being organically created from classical procreation between 2 HBs

[twin dragon]

Why use this word when others do the trick

Especially when it can amass confusion

[lethal lava]

https://youtube.com/shorts/lY0NO6q3Iuo?si=8X7hNEPvddEmw7sl

[subtle maple]

i disagree

[sinful nimbus]

Its only confusing if you aren't paying attention

[twin dragon]

ducto pepa

[viscid ridge]

Dr pepper coming in clutch

[crystal marsh]

if this was the case, Bardoon wouldn't deem the Knight a Higher Being after it obtains Void Heart

they would do so before that point

[whole holly]

Johnathan, you are lowest being, critter of lore channel

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is explicitly not a higher being Lace says as much why are we arguing this point

[viscid ridge]

Saving us from this nightmare blunt rotation

[whole holly]

because lot of people are dumb and confident

[lethal lava]

Dr pepper

[whole holly]

like Johnathan

[subtle maple]

i mean it could be just that they can't recognise them until a certain point

[whole holly]

i prefer Pepsi

[dense ridge]

When does Lace say that

[sinful nimbus]

In the Citadel

[whole holly]

unlikely

[sinful nimbus]

Even gods fall dialogue yada yada

[crystal marsh]

that's...nonsense, considering he's able to reliably distinguish between HBs and non-HBs

[twin dragon]

Also referred to outside that one dialogue

Also interesting how zii refers to hornet mostly as "pale it"

[sinful nimbus]

Spider, dear. Why must you remain so distressingly... optimistic? The power that waits above, you cannot conceive, her who would snuff that hope with barely a glance.
Hornet: Fool child. You still think me blind to the form of your liege? Having come this far?
Hornet: This land's grandeur, the devotion of its bugs, and the curse that befalls them. The signs are clear.
Hornet: Your kingdom is in the thrall of a creature beyond bug, one of that higher caste.
Hornet: Whatever its desire for my Silk and my shell, it shall find I'm quite attached to both.
Tch... Hahahaa. Marvelous sic! So the spider knows something of fathomless beings, and still it hopes to stand against one, a god...
Where do you hide this boundless strength you claim, spider? I've watched your struggle towards us. Yours was a painful, broken trek. One needs grace to stand before the divine.
Hornet: Then best you keep watching, child. I've found those who claim themselves a god can rarely match the title.
Hornet: And experience tells me, even gods can fall.

[twin dragon]

could be an indicator toward's star's point

[crystal marsh]

stop meming pls

[whole holly]

Creature, with Higher Intellect, because higher... could mean intellect

[twin dragon]

so you're saying steel city could host lobotomites

as their servants

[subtle maple]

i feel like you guys are complicating a very simple thing

[subtle maple]

COULD being the key word there

[whole holly]

i mean Steel Seer does seem lobotomized

[twin dragon]

BEFORE compression

[crystal marsh]

thank you

[viscid ridge]

This server in a nutshell

[whole holly]

other instances confirm hornet is not a higher being

[subtle maple]

that's just reffering to normal height lol

[twin dragon]

the higher in the 2nd context refers to the climb obviously, so kinda irrelevant

though the 1st one is interesting

[viscid ridge]

Like mask makers dialogue?

[whole holly]

and enough

[whole holly]

like Lace's dialogue, she contrasts hornet against god, saying she can't stand against fathomless being, hornet is pretty easy to fathom to other bugs

[subtle maple]

the first one is probly reffering to actual height too, cuz they up above the void and they see it seeking

[sinful nimbus]

Its all about height that's what higher means...

[oak palm]

Hornet pronouns discourse

[sinful nimbus]

Higher Beings are "Those who exist above all others" which is figurative but its still about height lol

That's the point of the word

[twin dragon]

Yeah star got a point here ngl

ANd nika and wtv

but i'd wait to get the shit in game

[whole holly]

wtv? who is that?

[twin dragon]

WhaTeVer

[subtle maple]

well ye but with that specific context it's probly just referring to actual height (like meters guys yk)

[twin dragon]

nope lmao

[whole holly]

yeah, it sounded lot like Witha's nickname, so i thought you made typo

[twin dragon]

refers to their higher intellect compared to the void's primordial instincts

[subtle maple]

and y not bro

[sinful nimbus]

It could also mean that like they come from the above world since void is at the bottom

Or a double meaning

[twin dragon]

Truly the possibility of all time

[subtle maple]

guys don't complicate it more than it needs to be complicated

[twin dragon]

Considering that it is mostly used as metaphorical wouldn't be surprised

[whole holly]

power, status/caste

[subtle maple]

that's not what i'm saying tho, i'm saying they're talking to the void and saying they're coming from above, so higher than the void

[whole holly]

double meaning is entirely plausible

[subtle maple]

that's only in the context of the void tablet tho, i don't mean it means this everywhere else

[twin dragon]

Higher is usually used in the context of status

[subtle maple]

sure but in this specific context it could be taken to mean like actual height yk

[whole holly]

Ancient Bugs being physically above void is not narratively important or significant to lore, it is more likely means metaphorical

[subtle maple]

well they're talking directly to the void and explaining where they come from and why they're here

[whole holly]

we already know void is at bottom , it doesn't need to be specified, higher than void has lore implications in metaphorical sense not physical sense, wouldn't make sense for lore tablet

[subtle maple]

yes

[whole holly]

enlightened is key part of this tablet

[subtle maple]

"yo, we live above u and saw u looking, wanna hug?" is basically what i'm getting at

[whole holly]

smoothbrain /jk

[subtle maple]

ok bro

[whole holly]

joking don't take it seriously, but it is oversimplifying it

[subtle maple]

they're not specifying where the void is, they're not talking to us, they're talking to the void and explaining where they're from

[subtle maple]

ah got u

[whole holly]

everything is from above void though, no being came from it, it doesn't need to be clarified and has no lore relevance

hey i have another topic i am more interested in, it is relation of flickering flame and wisp flame

[subtle maple]

i mean it's not rlly abt lore relevance, think of it from the in game world, like there are creatures that live near the void, and from the ppl who wrote the lore tablet's perspective, wouldn't you assume that the "creature" you "worship" would want to know where you're from?

[whole holly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipSsMOT5lVA

[subtle maple]

smooth transition

[whole holly]

no, i don't want to argue about this, it doesn't even change anything

i talked about this in the channel

.

and this

.

does anyone have theories explanations and more?

[subtle maple]

gonna have to wait for me to read through all of this bro

[whole holly]

ok

[subtle maple]

i honestly think wisp flame is a way bugs are trying to immitate the grimm troupe

that's a theory tho

also the wisp thicket bugs didn't necessarily steal the recipe from the shamans

[whole holly]

i think it is Flickering Flame spell used by bugs to protect from haunting

in wisp thicket there are bags of burnt pilgrims and they would be needed for spell: Flickering Flame
Five masks swirled soul, brought and broiled.
Four stones rage-baked, crushed powder coarse.
Three shells fresh from pilgrims fallen, to contain and age.

[subtle maple]

yeah i think that might be it's purpose too

but i think that's not their entire purpose yk

[whole holly]

Wisp Flame does have Sentience in way that it follows us, and Wisp is burning Soul/Silk, makes sense to come from shamans

[whole holly]

how so?

[subtle maple]

well i saw an interesting theory that said the bell hermit instigated the wisp thicket bugs into using the flicker flame

[whole holly]

it is possible , he refers to everyone as slave, only ones who aren't slaves to haunting are wisp thicket people

[subtle maple]

isn't it interesting that the father of the flame is at the top of bellhart?

[whole holly]

yeah

[whole holly]

i had same theory

[subtle maple]

i also think it's sentient in some way

[whole holly]

they follow us, like Silkflies, i think it is Soul construct that is burning

[subtle maple]

well anything with soul should have some kind of will right?

[whole holly]

it is force that animates bugs, so yes

[subtle maple]

i also think that's how the bell hermit gathered all of his souls for the silk and soul quest

[whole holly]

Shamans have their own soul, they have lot of soul, it bloats regular bugs

[whole holly]

like Groal or Soulmaster

[subtle maple]

sure but that soul has to come from somewhere

[subtle maple]

soulmaster murdered a lot of bugs to accomplish what he did

[whole holly]

they are both with that lot of soul, they can spiral focus ambient soul from air

[whole holly]

yeah, but he consumed shaman spell and it bloated him

[whole holly]

more than other bugs

[subtle maple]

also remember the first snail shaman from the first game? the one that gives you the first spell? his mound was made out of dead bugs

[whole holly]

yeah, i know

[subtle maple]

i feel like the flicker flame was just bell hermit's way to trick bugs into worshipping smth so he could profit off of it

[whole holly]

they tend to do that, they can do lot, it seems, but they have lots of soul innately as well, like how weavers have innate silk

[whole holly]

it stopped haunting for them, that ones obvious

[subtle maple]

yeah, but bell hermit wouldn't rlly care abt that as long as they provided him with what he needs yk

[whole holly]

maybe that's true

[subtle maple]

also pay attention to caretaker's dialogue

"Buried in the warren of bells, at Pharloom's core, seek my sullen uncle. That one has power to spare."

[whole holly]

yeah, all shamans have power to spare

[subtle maple]

i mean wouldn't he only have power to spare if he had an outside source of soul that isn't his innate soul reserves

we know the chapel maid def uses the dead pilgrims that die at the start of pilgrimage for soul right?

the one in bilewater probly used the bugs from there to gather soul but they noticed what he was doing and they turned the tables on him

[twin dragon]

also AC most likely lived in the abyss soo

[halcyon merlin]

air conditioner

[frosty gate]

Assassin's Creed

[ember river]

They use them to make spells, whatever that entails

But snails are pretty powerful beings on their own

[subtle maple]

well yeh but as we know their spells do need soul

[ember river]

Armored Core

[ember river]

They just... use their own? Groal partially consumed a snail soul and could just go around spamming vengeful spirits

Their power reserves are vast

[subtle maple]

are they? why would the snail shaman in the first game need an entire mound of dead corpses tho

[ember river]

People seem to just build stuff out of them, the entire Marrow is built from discarded husks

I don't think he ritually sacrificed them to drain their soul

[subtle maple]

wouldn't it be better to assume that the husks were already there and ppl just built around them for the marrow?

[ember river]

The idea that the spell tablets refer to a ritual that has to be done everytime that you want to cast the spell seems pretty dumb to me as well

Unless they are some pretty damn powerful ones

"Oh yeah, your AoE attack will be available in 3-6 business days, depending on the time of natural expiry of the selected pilgrims"

[subtle maple]

i wouldn't think it has to be done every time

[ember river]

If the shamans get more power over time or need to refill it is unknown though

[subtle maple]

cuz we see the wisp thicket guys use their flame without needing to create another one

[ember river]

So they may have had to harvest bugs, or maybe not

[ember river]

Those aren't snails

[subtle maple]

they are using one of their recipes tho

[ember river]

No they're not

That's some shitty headcanon someone came up with

I was in that conversation

[subtle maple]

is it?

[ember river]

It is

[subtle maple]

it's literally in the journal tho

[ember river]

The journal doesn't mention snails

[subtle maple]

flicker flame is used in the creation of wisp fire

[ember river]

They used their own ritual to make a totem god

[ember river]

Baseless

Do show where that comes from

[subtle maple]

short lived sprite born of flickering flame

[frosty gate]

Ah yes SotV, my favorite Silksong Ending (Survivors of the Void)

[subtle maple]

the wisps are born from the flicker flame

[ember river]

You know flickering is also an adjective right?

If someone says they heard an abyssal shriek it doesn't really mean they heard someone cast Abyssal Shriek

[frosty gate]

Ironically, a fitting name for the ending

[subtle maple]

cmon bro

[ember river]

But to think Shamans taught this spell, unrelated to anything else they've shown interest in, to a random tribe, is NEVER brought up again, and the only magic ritual relating to the wisps is a totem god that isn't even the recipe they wrote for their spell

Is pretty dumb

[subtle maple]

i mean they clearly have a lot of interests besides the void

[ember river]

And yet they make no remarks if Hornet comes with the wispfire lantern

Now that could be more likely

And a more interesting outlook

But sadly my mind was polluted by Nika insisting that they were behind it for some reason

[subtle maple]

it could go either way tbh, there isn't rlly anything to point in one direction or the other but ye it's likely too

[ember river]

Wisps aren't pale anyways

[ember river]

The fact that snails are pretty damn isolationist doesn't help the idea that they'd go around building idols

[subtle maple]

well tru ig

[ember river]

I'm more confused as to how the fire magic even works, is it soul coated in fire? Is it burning silk?

[subtle maple]

i mean it isn't just them, pretty sure everyone's saying the same thing, not saying it's tru tho it's all just theories

[subtle maple]

well silk is made out of soul so both ig?

[ember river]

I've only ever heard them say it so in my case it was most definetely them

[ember river]

I guess, the only evidence is that the lantern consumes Hornet's silk to create wisps

[subtle maple]

with how little evidence there is for anything else that's plenty i'd say

[subtle maple]

idk what ppl r saying now but back in september or october, i've seen a lot of ppl argue abt it in yt comments abt silksong, a lot of them talk abt how they think bell hermit instigated the wisp thicket bugs

granted yt comments are a bad source for the general opinion of the public

[ember river]

There's no evidence towards that

[ember river]

Or reddit, don't trust reddit either

[subtle maple]

ik it's all just theories

[subtle maple]

that kinda goes without saying lol

but i can't help being biased to some theories more than others yk

[rain gate]

ah yes yt comments, the source of the "herrah is a pinstress" theory

[mossy jay]

what

[rain gate]

on mossbag's sk lore video that was one of the comments

[lone folio]

Absolutely flawless theory

They both wear blue

Boom theory confirmed!

[mossy jay]

Sonic the Hedgehog a pinstress?

[tired rampart]

yo

question

Benjamin and Crull, the NPC's that give you the roach gut quest

one of them is a roach but he's not feral like the rest of them

WHYYYY

some one @ me

no

one sec

he's an npc

[limpid summit]

Wow I guess he sort of does look like a roach

[tired rampart]

same cloth coat

similar pointed face

[plain gazelle]

i don't see it

[tired rampart]

I think its the cloth thats throwing me off

[plain gazelle]

if anything he looks like a big snitchfly

[tired rampart]

only 4 legs too

ight, im wrong

thanks

[subtle maple]

truly the best theories that our community has to offer

[low oracle]

The best theory is that capitalism is good

[edgy nebula]

question, how do we know nyleth isnt a hb

[quartz void]

What is Zaza

[sinful nimbus]

We could do it. The spell can be cast, with enough power, enormous power, equal maybe to that monarch...
about the red memory spell, which requires the power of 3 hearts combined

Narratively she's also not treated like GMS at all

Pharloom was not born of that monarch, Old One. Power existed in these lands even before she bound them beneath her.

[frigid belfry]

she probably isn’t but it’s just ambiguous

same thing with the fayforn

[oak palm]

She's called a mortal

[frigid belfry]

Pretty convincing

[quick river]

Considering they fayforn is called ‘a fayforn’ rather than ‘the fayforn’, I think it’s pretty clear cut.

[balmy hull]

what actually defines a higher being

[craggy smelt]

according to TC

There are certain creatures in the world of Hallownest that exist above all others, higher beings like Radiance and Wyrm and Root. If there are others like them, we'll probably run into them in future adventures.

so, pretty vague really
'exist above all others'

[stray fog]

I think fayforn is just a grown up version of the floating bugs in mt fay

Their mother

[balmy hull]

don't they also all want to rule over other bugs or am i thinking of pale beings

[stray fog]

They tend to do that

All of them except the shade lord

Idk if thr nightmare heart counts as a ruler either

[balmy hull]

i would think so bc it has the grimm troupe as followers

[craggy smelt]

we don't really know what they all want
Hornet refers to the 'higher caste' - pale beings - as being drawn to that sort of thing
but there are powerful entities that aren't pale beings

[stray fog]

Most of the troupe is the heart itself

[balmy hull]

wdym

[stray fog]

I can't find the dialogue

[balmy hull]

like they share a mind with the hightnare heart or smth

[craggy smelt]

White Lady refers to the complete Grimmchild as 'one and all, clan and master' or similar

also Grimm calls the Nightmare Heart the 'Heart of Grimm'

it suggests that the Troupe is basically an extension of the Heart itself

with the exception of guys like Nymm/Brumm, they seem like recruits - but even then, they seemingly get new identifies and masks that replace their old selves

[stray fog]

"Success then for the scarlet heart, and irony, to use my spawn to grow its own. I know you creature, and the form time shall bring. You may be all and one, clan and master"

- the white lady

[craggy smelt]

I was pretty close

[edgy nebula]

what are you talking about

did you mistake the scrapped pearl rosaries for pale rosaries

honestly though that makes me wonder

are pearls found anywhere in karak or coral tower?

i feel like the closest thing to pearls are crustnuts and corpora clusters

[craggy smelt]

finally
some fucking shit isn't pale

[stray fog]

Ping me when you finish it

[viscid ridge]

Wasn't it always pearl rosaries? When they are on a string its called a pale rosary string, but the rosary itself was always pearl, which i think relates back to the bay.

Theres probably clams in the bay that the rosaries are harvested from

Yeah i figured dw 😅

We do kinda have that cut clam enemy from coral forest, so its not a stretch that we'll get something similar in pharloom bay

[silk dirge]

what a clamity

[edgy nebula]

coral updraft clam my beloved

[neat sandal]

delightful little thing :)

[stray fog]

"Clambug"

[dire lynx]

scrapped clam from karak

[craggy smelt]

the deepest cut

[hidden crater]

The giant enemy crab

[echo trellis]

Why don’t craws live in verdania?

[rapid bloom]

Why would they? They are part of Greymoor

Even the Council of Craws is in Greymoor

We have no indication that lets us believe they lived in Verdania at some point

[rapid bloom]

<@&283547423706447872>

[whole holly]

guys

it seems like in pantheons of hallownest godhome we ascend to final boss fight, but pharloom lost lace boss has descending theme, also memories have descending theme, i don't think boss rush DLC will be conventionally same as Godseeker's Godhome

[oblique rampart]

I don't think there will be any at all

[whole holly]

that's not surprising, but i think too many players will want it

[oblique rampart]

It's a little lore related

Ig

[whole holly]

Godhome exists as it's own lore, as well as Grimm Troupe, i think Steel Hearts as well

[oblique rampart]

As godseeker states they came to hallownest cuz of pk's lingering power or the beacon

[whole holly]

similar things can happen in Pharloom i guess

it may have unrelated explanation

[oblique rampart]

There's no god as powerful as pale king or radiance in pharloom

[whole holly]

there is no canonical powerscale in Hollow Knight universe, besides, Shade Lord made appearance

[oblique rampart]

We know that but seeing lore wise and there feats Ingame pk and abs rad do stand out more powerful than gms plus there were like 6 higher beings in hallownest while in pharloom there's only one so makes sense if they don't appear in pharloom

[whole holly]

it could have totally different explanation

besides PK's feat is Beacon, Radiance's Feat is infection, GMS's feat is haunting, but debating feats have no lore relevance, Godseekers wanted true god anyways but Boss Rush DLC doesn't have to be related to Godseekers at all

[oblique rampart]

Plus why would they leave hallownest to come all the way to pharloom

[whole holly]

i already said, Boss Rush DLC doesn't have to be Godseeker, it could be similar group, have you read my comment?

[oblique rampart]

I did

I could be

[whole holly]

then your reply doesn't make sense, why does it have to be godseeker related, besides they travel lot for gods, i don't think it will be godseeker related still, i think it will be memory related

[oblique rampart]

Yeah

And I don't think there will be any boss rush dlc in silksong

[heavy gyro]

There definitely will be

[viscid ridge]

Tc did mention they will add bossrush at some point, specifically mentioning the godseekers, and there are leftover godseeker assets in game from a boss rush mode.

Although i personally would love to see the godseekers again, its probably gonna be a different type of bossrush this time.

[whole holly]

you are free to think so

but there likely will be

[viscid ridge]

Its kinda crazy to think of the amount of watersources pharloom has. Compared to hallownest, the blue lake which is the only major source of water, pharloom has the river in karak, the sea next to pharloom bay, and the watersource above pale lake which runs down through bilewater and greymoor.

[whole holly]

Hallownest has Royal Waterways, Lake of Unn and Blue Lake, less i guess, Pharloom seems to have more it's better ecosystem, no wonder Mosslands, Coral Gorge, and Shellwood thrived naturally, without Higher Being

[viscid ridge]

You have to remember royal waterways is just the blue lake's water, and the lake of unn is acid

[whole holly]

yeah, i am aware of that

Pale Lake is so interesting, especially because where it is situated

[viscid ridge]

Maybe verdania also counts as a source of water, but it probably comes from the sea above. But idk if the salt in the water would let life to flourish as much as it did

But if we remember verdania was originally in wormways, that was probably originally were moss grottos water came from

[whole holly]

yea, Saltwater is good for ocean life but not life on land that's near

[viscid ridge]

As of now idk where its coming from

[whole holly]

do we have source for this?

[viscid ridge]

Yea in older developments verdania was originally were wormways is

[whole holly]

being near bodies of water, verdania is moist climate and i would count it as swamp/rainforest/monsoon

[whole holly]

i am not sure if cut content is relevant to lore, though, but Verdania and Mosslands are similar somewhat

Moss Area and Verdania are far from each other

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i know, thats why im mentioning that in earlier development, the water in moss grotto probably came from verdania, but because its no longer there moss grottos water doesn't have a source. So its just falling out of the ceiling, even though the 3 regions above it is completely dry

[whole holly]

i don't think it is that deep, it is not shocking for place to have pockets of water, i would assume those pockets for water are from under Moss Lands and since Weavenest Atla has it too i think, if i am not wrong

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but we see water falling from above, which realistically has nowhere to come from, but its probably just coming from somewhere in the 3rd dimension we can't access. So fair, its not that deep but its cool to look at details like that, and see how the game has changed over the years

[whole holly]

i liked lush atmosphere of verdania and am sad to see it gone, with no remnants

[viscid ridge]

Like verdanias location was were pharloom bay would have been at one point and such

[stray fog]

Pharloom bay is salty

[viscid ridge]

Yeah?

[stray fog]

So they can't drink it

[whole holly]

yeah but it still makes sense for nearby areas to be like rainforests and temperate/moist climate

[viscid ridge]

I never said they could, im just saying its a very large source of water

[stray fog]

Oh

[viscid ridge]

Yeah 😅

[whole holly]

i wish we got to see lands of serene, where everbloom is from

but i don't think Team Cherry will introduce it to us for long time

[tulip flame]

if they ever make a 3rd game in this universe and if its their final one its likely they will finish all the origins of these remaining mysteries

[whole holly]

Maybe, I want more info about steel hearts, lifeblood, delicate flower and nightmare troupe

[tulip flame]

I had a pretty dumb idea a while back

[whole holly]

?

[tulip flame]

that what if team cherry made a game where you only fight higher beings to explain how they all originate

[stray fog]

I would pay money for them to tie up all loose ends

[whole holly]

I don’t think it will be only higher beings, it will probably will be like godhome equivalent

Maybe I guess

[tulip flame]

How about think of it as a very large city size HTTYD hidden world from where the dragons originated? Obviously it won't just be that they all just randomly came to be here one day

I am just thinking about it as a location

[whole holly]

I mean it would make sense to explain where power comes from, for Pale Beings at least

[tulip flame]

true

It would be fun regardless

[whole holly]

I mean I want to know about Radiances light and what makes it unique compared to essence

[tulip flame]

Hers is a weird case since she's a higher being existing entirely in the dream realm. She can't manifest herself in the physical world but does has influence over a whole kingdom

The entire origin story for all this would be nuts to write

Who even is the writer