sk-lore

[whole holly]

she can also upgrade crest's which weaver's haven't been proven to do

[spark valve]

I mean he does he just doesn't call it that

[edgy nebula]

he does?

[spark valve]

yeah that's like the whole deal with her being in a transitional state and having multiple faces

[sinful nimbus]

Your mask... It reads clear enough, Old One. Watcher, hunter, monarch even, though you may reject that station.
A complex visage, perhaps, yet still to my sight it looks unresolved.

[edgy nebula]

ah

[blissful harbor]

the problem is he calls it a mask

cause he hates us

[spark valve]

it's not a problem it's actually really straightforward

and even makes more sense as a term than crest

[sinful nimbus]

Mask Makers having a comeback ❤️‍🩹

[gentle aspen]

“The problem is he uses metaphor”

hk fans can’t read is back baby

never left

[blissful harbor]

never claimed i could read
checkmate atheists

[gentle aspen]

and yet you directly responded to my written words

[cedar skiff]

mask makers to me felt like those oracles that read your palm i feel like mask here is very metaphorical

[blissful harbor]

ever heard of text to speech

[gentle aspen]

Perch

minor spelling mistake I win

[whole holly]

i had mask and crest discussion before, mask seems to be mentioned in relation to identity, while crest is mentioned in relation to nature

[spark valve]

Lady... Incredible... Your nature is so unlike a mortal bugs. Yours is malleable, transitory. It is a marvelous thing. Worth my long life to behold.

Your mask... It reads clear enough, Old One. Watcher, hunter, monarch even, though you may reject that station.
A complex visage, perhaps, yet still to my sight it looks unresolved.
Hornet: If you see a transitional state, it is one I have accepted. My mask has remained defined through lifetimes uncounted.

[gentle aspen]

transitional state? Hornet is trans confirmed?

[spark valve]

transcrester

[whole holly]

not that they are mutually exclusive

[spark valve]

transmask was right there

[edgy nebula]

oh now that’s smart

[cedar skiff]

if sylphean like an actual derivation from sylph or is this tc aura naming

[edgy nebula]

what do we think of the theory that sylphean slugs are the same species as the guy who carries the flea caravan

henrick

[spark valve]

it's funny but probably not the intent

[gentle aspen]

does it matter

[blissful harbor]

i imagine slyphean slugs to be white

[cedar skiff]

i was just curious

[gentle aspen]

unless their outer shell breaks apart to reveal a holy white aura, doubt it

[edgy nebula]

it has a pretty solid bit of evidence

[blissful harbor]

yea they fucking kill henrick and then they get their oil

[gentle aspen]

I know but like
the suffix ean denotes forming an adjective or a noun

[foggy fractal]

noooo henrick is die :C

[edgy nebula]

#sk-lore message here

[cedar skiff]

i wasnt trying to downplay the observation lol its a really good one team cherry just has their way with names

its a cool sounding word

[spark valve]

anyways gms isn't called sylphean and the slugs probably aren't gods so it likely just means soul which, again, eva is made entirely of

doesn't really change that she's an attempt at weaver reproducing or mean she's meant to replace gms

[gentle aspen]

“Pretty solid bit of evidence”
is only visual

[edgy nebula]

damn youre right

[spark valve]

pale which isn't specific to gms and is a soul thing

[whole holly]

and this, Weaver's aren't characterized by upgrading crest, Eva is

[gentle aspen]

all the weavers are dead

[spark valve]

weavers can't upgrade crests because they aren't part wyrm

[gentle aspen]

you can’t characterize them as upgrading crests

and hornet’s malleable nature is like

The reason she can do all that extra shit

[spark valve]

yes it's facilitated by hornet being special

Lady... Incredible... Your nature is so unlike a mortal bugs. Yours is malleable, transitory. It is a marvelous thing. Worth my long life to behold

[whole holly]

Eva does give aid to hornet with her power, she outright says that

[stray fog]

I believe that salubra is a Sylphean slug

[gentle aspen]

didn’t say she didn’t

[blissful harbor]

would be hilarious

[gentle aspen]

The reason she can is because hornet’s special

[stray fog]

And no I won't defend this theory
Im going to sleep now

[spark valve]

salubra's blessing plus actually being a slug yes

[edgy nebula]

tk shouldve killed salubra to sharpen their nail even further

[whole holly]

but upgrading it is still her unique ability, that is my point

[cedar skiff]

i wonder if you could even use pale oil to “upgrade” a nail

[blissful harbor]

fuck you i was gonna make that joke

[stray fog]

Bruh people are agreeing 😭😭

I expected like 4 people to disagree

[spark valve]

you're just saying that though no reason to think eva's unique in having the ability to do that

[edgy nebula]

gotta be faster than that

[spark valve]

if there were living weavers they very plausibly could do the same thing for hornet

[whole holly]

she is only confirmed case, that is unique

[spark valve]

not how it works

[whole holly]

too reliant on word if

[spark valve]

her being the only one around to do it doesn't mean she's the only one who could possibly do it

[stray fog]

And shes a slug

[spark valve]

you're claiming she's the only one who could possibly do it, that's unsupported there's zero reason to think that's the case

[whole holly]

unique doesn't mean she's the only one who could possibly do it

[stray fog]

I dont feel comfortable using salubra's... Secretions
To upgrade my needle

Disgusting

[gentle aspen]

you realize the only reason they’re saying “if” is because every other weaver aside from widow, who tries murdering us, is dead, right?

[spark valve]

that is in fact what the word unique means

[gentle aspen]

Eva was MADE by the weavers

[spark valve]

anyways anyone with the sight could probably do what eva does because she does it by peering into hornet's nature

[cedar skiff]

hornet drinks the … nectar though so

shrug

[silver meadow]

Ava's role is to act as a guardian of memory and redemption. She's a poetic, reflective figure who helps Hornet understand Farlum's past, but she doesn't bring up the fact that she may have been one of the first weavers. Am I wrong? 🤔

[stray fog]

She wasn't one of the first Weavers

[gentle aspen]

She’s explicitly not a weaver

[whole holly]

unique means : particularly remarkable, special, or unusual.

[edgy nebula]

i wish we got lore on why silksong skarr like nectar

yeah they bombard you in creige’s basement for the stuff

[blissful harbor]

ants do that irl

[spark valve]

when you say somebody has a unique ability you are in fact saying only they can do it

[whole holly]

but we can't confidently conclude weavers can do same is my point

[edgy nebula]

or atleast thats what i assumed

[stray fog]

Ants venture out to find food and carry it back

[gentle aspen]

why not

[foggy fractal]

🤖 ?

[ember river]

Because nectar's sweet

[edgy nebula]

yeah but an extra reason for why they do it would be cool, though it probably doesnt need any expansion

[silver meadow]

so what is her position I didn't find any evidence to explain what exactly her role was so I assumed this🤔

[whole holly]

nope i mean that she has particularly remarkable, SPECIAL, or unusual. meanings don't change to accommodate you

[whole holly]

how would we?

[ember river]

There really doesn't need to be any grandiose explanation as to why they like nectar

[spark valve]

she's an attempt the weavers make at reproducing, since they can't do so normally. She's a shot at a second generation of weavers

[stray fog]

That actually what the current discussion is about

[gentle aspen]

Lady, my senses resound. You have grown further beyond the bounds of a bug.
Permit me to gaze again upon your nature, that I may offer clarity.

[silver meadow]

Maybe you're right, I don't know, her presence is very mysterious to me.

[gentle aspen]

this is what she says when she is going to upgrade our crest

all she needs is the ability to gaze on her nature

[ember river]

Her presence isn't that mysterious

[gentle aspen]

Mask Maker does the same thing

[spark valve]

which isn't unique

[ember river]

Mainly because it's explained

Outright

[gentle aspen]

Hornet even calls it “the sight” in their case

[whole holly]

it is because it means particularly remarkable, special, or unusual.

[gentle aspen]

the only special thing she does is become sylphsong

[spark valve]

womp womp

[whole holly]

what a convenient crop

[silver meadow]

Make sense but 🤔

[spark valve]

that's the primary definition and the one used in the expression of a 'unique ability'

[whole holly]

selected text is my definition of unique i was using

[gentle aspen]

well then that’s your fault

that’s not the way the word is being used

[spark valve]

not everyone speaks english fluently it doesn't matter

[gentle aspen]

primary definitions take precedence

[ember river]

"More generally, unusual or special in some way"

It's not necessarily the one and only

[silver meadow]

yes I noticed that but I don't know I think beyond the context in the game her story is not fully revealed unless I missed something🤔

[whole holly]

it is my fault? it is common to know multiple definition of words, especially when you can infer it from context

[spark valve]

the context suggested the other definition

[whole holly]

not exclusively

[spark valve]

pretty much exclusively unless you're being dishonest and deliberately trying to mislead people

[whole holly]

and clarification too

[silver meadow]

that is, there is something more then 🤔

[silver meadow]

that is, there is something more

[ember river]

Cambridge explicitly says that the definition Nika was using is the more common one

Stop arguing semantics for once

[gentle aspen]

it…isn’t, though? Cambridge isn’t the only dictionary

[whole holly]

i heard of unique talent used to describe people pretty often, that doesn't mean they are only ones with that ability, that is quite rare

[spark valve]

that's also not what cambridge says but you know what they say about hollow knight fans

[ember river]

Please do enlighten me on the meaning of "more generally" smartass

[foggy fractal]

cambridge knows about us ? :D

[spark valve]

more generally
applying to a larger set of entities
less specifically

[ember river]

Which applied to this sentence, means...

[spark valve]

less specifically

not more common use

[ember river]

Or that it is more generally used

Again, this is semantics

It's missing the point

[whole holly]

and both meanings are widespread plus i gave clarification of which one i meant, this is such a non-issue

[spark valve]

the point was also wrong

the point was 'we don't see a weaver do it so they couldn't do it' which is not remotely sound

and again

even if it was true that weavers couldn't do it eva is different from weavers in ways that displeased them

because she was uh

supposed to be like them

[gentle aspen]

regardless of that, I already illuminated why her special ability isn’t that special

[spark valve]

it's just floundering to make up reasons for some fanon

[gentle aspen]

because the qualifier for her upgrading crests is being able to see into our nature

Which isn’t a common ability certainly, but it isn’t unique either

[whole holly]

if you are going to be pedantic, then cambridge isn't person, cambridge didn't "say" anything, if you want to be strict about meanings of words

[gentle aspen]

That’s not being pedantic either

that’s just incorrect

you don’t need to be a person to say something lol

[silver meadow]

What I liked about both the original Hollow Knight and Silksong is that they leave some possibilities open for discussion and for the players to interpret, but there is never a single path.

[spark valve]

there's so much wrong with what they said but it's all incredibly stupid for so many reasons let's just not

[whole holly]

we have no confirmed case of weaver doing it

[spark valve]

it doesn't matter

[blissful harbor]

of upgrading a crest? theres like no sample size

[ember river]

Except when they very explicitly tell you what something is and then someone comes around and says "but what if it's something else?"

[blissful harbor]

they’re all dead

[gentle aspen]

weavers are the ones who made eva
weavers quantified what a crest is

[spark valve]

and if they could perceive them they could do what eva does

[gentle aspen]

A half weaver literally has a term for those who can see within other bugs “The Sight”

[spark valve]

now they may be unable to, or they may not be as good at it, but guess what

[gentle aspen]

if I wanted to be a pedantic asshole I would say “farsight is an example of the sight being used over long distances”

[foggy fractal]

far... sight... ?

interesting...

[ember river]

The thing you get from the abyss

To see completion %

[spark valve]

Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.
Over time, that difference brought only distance between us.
differences between eva and weavers were undesirable

[foggy fractal]

fascinating !

[spark valve]

because they were making her to be a weaver

[foggy fractal]

most intriguing

[whole holly]

does hornet use that term with Eva? i thought it referred to mask maker

[silver meadow]

That's exactly what I like about these discussions, the twist on what you officially know from the game, and then you create your own thoughts and versions and someone else comes to tell you their own version, perspective.

[gentle aspen]

She doesn’t need to

[whole holly]

A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my SENSE are my own. sight upon ones crest is her primary sense you guys

[gentle aspen]

the sight does the exact same thing Eva is doing when she upgrades a crest

[ember river]

No, that's just incorrect, saying that Sherma is a conductor, for example, is wrong no matter how you look at it

[gentle aspen]

??????

She says senses

she doesn’t say sense

you know

being able to see? Hear?

[spark valve]

she says senses she also says that differences created distance between her and the weavers meaning she wasn't supposed to have them

[foggy fractal]

taste ?

[ember river]

To be fair, we don't know if a weaver would be able to manipulate a crest even if they could see it, mainly because we don't really know if Eva's form allowed for the same capabilities as a normal weaver

True

Sherma will be the new ruler of Pharloom

[gentle aspen]

I mean there’s like, no reason to assert they couldn’t

[foggy fractal]

sherma becomes president of Pharloom

[gentle aspen]

Eva’s upgrading our crest dialogue just entails looking into our nature

[spark valve]

she is in fact different from normal weavers she just wasn't supposed to be

[silver meadow]

no, I'm not referring to variations or changes to the script, obviously, I say that the interpretation that each player makes according to the data and what he sees through the game

[vale osprey]

sherma the goat

[gentle aspen]

The differences are things the weavers didn’t like because she wasn’t an exact copy

[silver meadow]

Hehe

[gentle aspen]

the point of Eva was to go around the curse of not being able to have kids or some shit

No meme gifs

[ember river]

Yeah, it comes off more as her revealing more about Hornet's nature than "physically" grabbing the crest and upgrading it

At least to me

[gentle aspen]

because she wasn’t perfect she was eventually discarded

[whole holly]

Step closer, lady, that my senses would better understand your nature. is first interaction right before upgrade, it definitely is in relation of it.

[ember river]

She was pretty damn far from perfect

[spark valve]

gee I wonder if that's a deliberate parallel to anyone else

[gentle aspen]

oh my god bruh

yeah she needs hornet to step closer to see her better

[ember river]

I think you're missing their point

[whole holly]

Insight and The Sight are distinguished

[whole holly]

?

[ember river]

Wait what even was your point

[gentle aspen]

alright man

never mind

you’re right

whatever

imma go do something else

[spark valve]

no you see insight and the sight are distinguished they just do the same shit and the characters that do that say similar stuff and draw the same conclusions

because they're different things

[whole holly]

with her senses different from weavers, as she states, it is directly in line with The Sight

[ember river]

She has different senses than the Weavers, yeah, she can see crests and the weavers can't, probably other stuff that wasn't really spoken about too

[whole holly]

"totally bro, TC made one about crest and one about masks for no reason"

[whole holly]

not Crests, but Insight, because Crest is Weaver term

[spark valve]

eva explicitly says that crest is just the weaver term for it

the weaver term for something that exists

[sinful nimbus]

Mask Makers using the word mask to refer to a bugs identity (What a crest is) is well established even in the first game

[ember river]

And Eva was made by weavers, has the mind of a weaver, and has spent her entire life in a weavenest

[spark valve]

you know that red and rojo refer to the same phenomenon right

spanish people don't not perceive color just because they point at an apple and don't call it red

[foggy fractal]

🍎

[ember river]

Clearly, spanish apples are rojas, while American apples are red

[silver meadow]

Hehehe

After so many hours spent on silksong, I feel like asking Ava herself about her origins, and my curiosity is finally over.

[whole holly]

meaning does seem to overlap

like a lot

[ember river]

The weavers created her

Trying to replicate themselves

Since they can't reproduce

[sinful nimbus]

Well it overlaps because they are talking about the same thing

Mask Maker even describes Hornet's "Mask" as a Hunter

[ember river]

Crest is just a term we got in Silksong, they could have called it "Intrinsic nature of your identity" instead

[sinful nimbus]

While pointing out that it is malleable like Eva does

[spark valve]

Hornet: You speak of their crest? That signifier of a bug's essence and their invisible yoke born through a lifetime.

A complex visage, perhaps, yet still to my sight it looks unresolved.
Hornet: If you see a transitional state, it is one I have accepted. My mask has remained defined through lifetimes uncounted.
Aye. Rigid I'm sure, but your kind rarely develop evenly, and the lifetime of bugs are poor measure for one like you.

[whole holly]

i interpreted it as different aspects of same thing always, i had doubts it being outright same since hornet was watcher and monarch mask and architect and other crests, so i assumed they weren't outright same

[gentle aspen]

So…it’d be the same thing?

[whole holly]

Maybe reread it

[silver meadow]

So he has contributed to the creation of GMS?

[spark valve]

no

gms is the mother of weavers

the weavers are the mothers of eva

gms is older than eva

[silver meadow]

so Ava is not its creator then

so Ava is a later weaver?

[spark valve]

eva is an attempt at weavers making more weavers

I was born within this space. To leave would be my death, an uninspired end, though one I've sometimes wished would come.
I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage.

[silver meadow]

actually yes it really makes sense now I like the way your answers are laid out.

In any case, thank you to everyone who answered my questions. I appreciate it, but it's always interesting to see other versions and interpretations of players, so good evening to everyone.

[upbeat wraith]

The fact that there’s so much left to interpretation shows how damn good and special this world and lore is.

[cinder pebble]

what do you guys think about the “anguished aura” lore tablet in ruined chapel?

cause based on the other tablets there, its probably a spell for something

[lean temple]

I've noticed the tablet isn't written in Pharlooomian like Flickering Flame is

Seems older than the other one. Maybe an ancient Shaman spell?

[pine garden]

holy shit just realized thats why Sherma's head looks like that in act 3

[unique canopy]

The writing looks similar enough to writing in Hallownest proper, the City of Tears and surrounding areas. Though it might just be me but, material aside, the writing looks most similar to the lore tablets in the Fungal Wastes

[lean temple]

Yes

[lean temple]

Kinda but I doubt that was the intention. Think it's supposed to be ancient Snail Shaman script

[unique canopy]

Maybe but I don't think we have any other examples to reference

[lean temple]

There must be a reason for having two different scripts. And I think it's likely to show that ancient Shamans used a different one to the ones living in current Pharloom, and likely for a while before modern times too.

[unique canopy]

Maybe there's just a broad ancient language that was used by the shamans as well as other ancient beings, rather than just being specifically a snail shaman language?

[lean temple]

The thing is I'm not sure if the similarity is intentional and hints at what you're saying or if it's just a coincidence

[unique canopy]

Fair

Although one other point I'll mention is that it's very different from the ancient language found in the Abyss in both games, as well as by tablets associated with Hallownest royalty

[lean temple]

True

Although idk why the snails would share a script with the shrumals/ Mister Mushroom

[frigid belfry]

We know common dialects exist (likely between kingdoms) so this is pretty plausible

[unique canopy]

Keeping in mind there's a big difference between sharing a script and sharing a language, just look at real life.

[lean temple]

Good point but even sharing a script is a bit odd

Lemme think

OK so snail shamans exist in many lands if silksong is to go by, and Mister Mushroom similarly has travelled to many lands. He is also quite the enigmatic and mysterious being, with his seeming ubiquitous presence, which could've made shamans curious about him. Perhaps this caused the Shroomals from Mister Mushroom and the Shamans to develop a shared script at some point? Idk lol

[muted lantern]

With gms gone in etv what would happen to the silk all over, presumably living beings like lace and the silkflies would remain but what about all the collected silk of gms's. Would all the residual silk inside bugs shells vanish?

[silk dirge]

i think if it was still connected to her it would disappear

but like for example nothing in whiteward gets voided

thats bc its all disconnected from gms by that point

[edgy nebula]

prolly not

[timber pond]

I personally think it can still be made if someone has the skill.

Its just like

soul wire bro

The materium clearly states what its capacity is.

[marble oasis]

it probably does what the silk in the exhaust organ does

the bench strung up in silk in there is the only silk to not give you silk when you break it, and it doesn’t glow

so it’s just inert

[muted lantern]

So wait, second sentinel gives us reserve bind, is this a thing that sentinels use? as in is silk involved in their function? or is it just a tool that it gives ud.

I always assumed it was just a silkfly with cogworks built around it. It seemed like using silk iself for constructs was outdated as implied by clawmaidens

[muted lantern]

is it just an outside spool of silk used to replenish the silkfly?

I guess my question is do cogworks rely on silk to survive kind of like lace

[cinder pebble]

ooo maybe
good explanation, can’t think of anything else that would work lol

[muted lantern]

The issue being, silkflies seem to last forever without silk, we see them left alone in isolated lanterns for presumably a very long time.

Is it just to speed up healing like weavers?

Can sentinels even bind?

[cinder pebble]

maybe its to store charge for their needle strike kinda attacks?
so like the silkflies inside it generate enough power to run the sentinels with a bit of left over, that goes into the reserve bind to be used with a massive sudden output

[marble oasis]

Isn’t it sort of the same thing as the little spools Choristors and Grand Reeds have?

[muted lantern]

The sentinels don't use silk in fighting though really, unless it powers their shaman like attacks?

[stoic plover]

ever noticed how lace’s parry is kinda similar to the wanderer’s crest’s needle strike

[cedar skiff]

“If only could choose to connect themself to something grander, that curse may seem a wonder. “ why is pavo spitting

[muted lantern]

My best guess is it's like an adrenaline shot, maybe boosting the silkflies capacity briefly. I doubt they need it to live

Considering the cogworks are still active without someone giving them silk

[muted lantern]

Also the reserve bind is specified to be a token of the sentinels order when it gives it to hornet

[craggy smelt]

is that line from the game accurate? it feels like a word is missing
"If only [they] could choose-?"

[muted lantern]

I assume it's to give a boost of power since the silkflies power the cogworks maybe?

Yak what do you think is the purpose of the reserve bind since its stated to be a token of the sentinels order, but we don't see them really use silk. Especially not to bind.

[cinder pebble]

maybe they use it similarly to those big guys in high halls gauntlet

with their charge slash

[craggy smelt]

dunno. It's 'a bind's worth of silk' as far as Hornet is concerned, but the use the Sentinels had for it? couldn't say
maybe it was something like a medkit for the pilgrims they ostensibly guarded

[cedar skiff]

i copied it from the wiki right after reading it ingame so idfk

[craggy smelt]

there's only one thing to do - start a new playthrough to verify this one single thing

[muted lantern]

But charge attacks are meant to be based on the pinstress which don't use silk

[cinder pebble]

ye ik thats why i cant give a good explanation ;-;
my main reasoning is cause they literally run on silk, and the charge attack requires a build up of energy (which for the sentinel would come in the form of silk)

[marble oasis]

They were the highest ranking soldiers so they get the best spool

[cinder pebble]

but ye its a very flawed explanation lol

[cinder pebble]

oh so js symbolic?

[marble oasis]

I imagine Silk must be used to preserve either the silkfly or the automaton body though, since we get Silk from hitting other cogwork automatons

[cinder pebble]

i thought they were in a different class entirely, with highest ranking “soldier” (bug) being grand reed or smth

[muted lantern]

As yak said it could be a medkit for pilgrims, or like a adrenaline shot for combat. We know it's not silk but the fly itself that powers the cogworks, so maybe silk temporarily boosts the silkfly.

The only cogwork we see that runs off silk seems to be the clawmaidens who are implied to be outdated. Silk is a super valuable resource so I imagine they use the silkflies as they only require suffering, it's like recycling the souls of their workers, they wouldn't spend something so valuable on maintaining a worker. Otherwise they'd just prolong their life with more silk

[marble oasis]

Hornet thinks Silk is used in the Cogwork Choirbugs

Maybe she’s referring to the silkfly?

[muted lantern]

Cogwork choirbugs?

Do you mean clawmaidens?

Oh no that's an actual enemy

Hmmm, then silk must be used?

In cogworks

[marble oasis]

Its core is filled with fine mechanisms, but that alone should not produce such a convincing mimic of life. Silk must also be used to animate this artifice, though exactly how I am not sure.

[muted lantern]

Yeah I just read it

[marble oasis]

Could be referring to the Silkfly

[muted lantern]

And also hornet appears to be speculating, as if she doesn't know?

Its odd though, nonetheless.

I think it's to imply she doesn't understand the nature of silkflies maybe.

Because she's speculating silk because she doesn't know how they can be so lifelike

[marble oasis]

I think if it was meant to imply Silkflies it would be something like “There must be something more to animate this creature” instead of “Silk must be used to animate this creature”

[muted lantern]

The issue being she says there's mechanisms inside, but she says silk as if she's speculating, not that she actually found silk inside. The way it's phrased implies she isn't sure, which she would be if she just found silk in there.

[marble oasis]

Hornet is a good speculator though

She knows Silk when she sees it and would presumably know not-Silk when she doesn’t see it

[muted lantern]

And she's right in part, silkflies are made of silk

[marble oasis]

Are they?

[muted lantern]

Yes, they are the result of the white wards experiments, made with something called the silk siphon iirc.

[marble oasis]

Where is this said

[muted lantern]

Presumably it's using the soul and the silk in a bug to make them

https://youtu.be/loxqzrs8rQ0?si=e2BT61WUdUOB00BL silk siphon j think is the filename for this machine, but I may be wrong. But it's a machine covered in silk clearly tied to the flies.

[marble oasis]

Yeah but that doesn’t mean the flies are silk

[muted lantern]

I mean they are called silkflies

[cinder pebble]

its not specifically stated in the game, but heavily suggested and the file names call them that

[muted lantern]

Like when you use a machine covered in loose silk that leaves mountains of empty bodies and creates little flies. Its presumable it's sucking the silk and soul from their shells to make these things. Especially if the files truly call it the silk siphon.

Which needs to be double checked, if anyone knows where to look

Especially we need to consider that the citadel manipulates soul through silk.

So they'd need to use silk as a medium to extract souls in this way.

[marble oasis]

Are they actually called that in game?

I don’t remember seeing it

[muted lantern]

In the files yes. They are also directly manipulated lace and phantom, beings made entirely of silk

[marble oasis]

Either way if they are Silk that just goes back to SS running on Silk which is why it has a reserve bind

[marble oasis]

In game is not in the files but good to know where we got the name

[muted lantern]

They must run on silk, it seems like they burst into silk as well as gears. I wonder if what separates them from clawmaidens then is that they don't need a constant supply to function? Clawmaidens don't need silkflies and are described as very silk inefficient. so I wonder if silkflies are somehow self sustaining? We do see them seemingly remaining functional left alone in lanterns for presumably a long time.

So do they sustain themselves on the silk they are built with?

To make the question more concise. Are they like lace where they need silk to be sustained? Or do silkflies enable them to maintain themselves naturally.

[frosty gate]

I would assume that Silkflies sustain themselves with the soul of the bugs they were created with

[frosty gate]

Or rather, they don't need to sustain themselves

Bugs don't need to replenish their souls to sustain themselves

I'd guess Silkflies, who are made on Bug souls, are the same

I feel like the main difference between Silk made beings, like Lace, and Silkflies is the lack of Soul in the process I guess?

[muted lantern]

I guess all of laces soul is localized in her silk, she doesn't produce it naturally.

[frosty gate]

Exactly, Lace is more akin to a Construct than to a Bug

[muted lantern]

Her own existence probably feeds off the silk itself.

[muted lantern]

Ye, but so is like secsen. I guess the difference might be the presence of the silkfly.

[frosty gate]

And as time goes on, her existance consumes Silk, like Phantom

[frosty gate]

Wdym

[marble oasis]

Silkflies seem to outlive their bodies frequently as seen with the three other Sentinels and 12th architect

[muted lantern]

Second sentinel is also a construct I mean, their body obviously uses silk, I'm just not sure if it consumes silk like lace does. Essentially, would hornet have to maintain secsen with silk to keep them functional. Or would their silk maintain itself on account of the silkfly.

[frosty gate]

Silkflies might be the core of the constructs and the thing that consumes Silk. Maybe we got this all wrong and the Silkflies are electricity while Silk is just the wires

[frosty gate]

I'm guessing Hornet would have to replenish the Silk

[muted lantern]

We know at least the flies can last for a long time abandoned in lamps across the kingdom.

Maybe they are just more silk efficient?

[frosty gate]

Or maybe they don't use Silk at all

[muted lantern]

I'm not sure honestly.

[frosty gate]

It makes sense imo, we've seen things run on silk, but the flies persist even if the construct dies

And we know Silk itself runs out

But the Flies are still there after eons

[muted lantern]

I think the flies can last forever, but do the cogworks bodies give out without their silk being replaced. The flies seem to be the power source, and seem to be self sustaining, but then why would it need silk? It seems like the cogworks might contain silk beyond just the fly due to them shooting out silk particles when hit. But what exactly it's used for I'm not sure.

Here's my final take: Probably the fly is used for cognition and the silk is fuel?

So it would need a resupply, just not as much as lace, they are probably efficient enough to last a long time without additional silk.
Since it's implied clawmaidens stopped being produced for innefficiency, probably as they were loose puppets with just silk animating them.

[frosty gate]

I agree with that, but I still don't think the flies themselves need to be supplied with Silk

[muted lantern]

Oh I meant the body uses silk as fuel, not the flies, hence why the flies outlast the bodies.

Silkflies are like, the brain of the robot, and sustain themselves, but the body needs silk to stay functional. Unless it's so efficient the first silk used when making it is all that's needed.

[frosty gate]

So we agree with everything except the purpose of the flies I guess?

[muted lantern]

What do you think the purpose was again?

[frosty gate]

Wait, you said it's the power source right?

[muted lantern]

The flies are the brain of the cogwork, the extra silk in the body for fueling the mechanical body

So the silk is power source, flies are the brain

Cogworks seem to contain both

As they explode into a silk blast alongside the fly escaping

The flies function with or without silk, but the body doesn't, essentially

[frosty gate]

So yeah we agree

[muted lantern]

I think yea

[edgy nebula]

could it be possible silkflies are the power source and the brain?

itd make sense why fourth chorus houses hundreds

[frosty gate]

I mean, I'd say they're both right?

One means the other

[muted lantern]

Possible, but the question is why is there also silk in the cogworks, if you fight them, they shoot out puffs of torn threads alongside cogs, as if their body has silk in it, even secsen. And cogworks explode into torn threads alongside the silkfly.

So if the fly powers it alone, what's the other silk for.

[frosty gate]

Oh, as I said

Silkflies are the source, Silk are the cables

[edgy nebula]

well, the robots are haunted aswell, no? thats why they attack you

[muted lantern]

But secsen isn't, and they shoot out thread too

When hit

[muted lantern]

That could work honestly

[frosty gate]

They need to replenish the Silk so the Silkfly keeps powering everything

[edgy nebula]

oh yeah i suppose thats true

[muted lantern]

I don't think the flies can create more silk, that seems to be an ability reserved to weavers and GMS.

[frosty gate]

I don't say they flies can

I just mean they conduct energy

Or rather the give energy to the Silk

[muted lantern]

Like flies are a brain and silk is the nervous system?

[frosty gate]

Yes

[frosty gate]

It makes all the sense in the world

I was trying to avoid using that metaphor, lest someone would misunderstand and add personality as part of the brain

Which, yes, it is a part, but it wouldn't apply to this case

[muted lantern]

To clarify, are you saying you don't think personality is from the fly?

[frosty gate]

Yes, absolutely

[muted lantern]

Why not?

hornet does describe the cogworks as lifelike, though i think their individuality is intentionally reduced

[frosty gate]

Which one was that?

[muted lantern]

"Its core is filled with fine mechanisms, but that alone should not produce such a convincing mimic of life. Silk must also be used to animate this artifice, though exactly how I am not sure." The implication is from this mostly

cogwork choirbug.

Though hornet specifies second sentinel as more lifelike. A result of the cogwork heart?

also their needolin dialogue gives a sense of self thats been muddled but still present. "...Lift it...Fix it...Me?...
...Am I...Who?...
...To serve...
...Work...Eternal..."

They seem more brainwashed than mindless

[frosty gate]

Sometimes I'm not sure how much of those are Hornet being a total ape or being a reality

It seems like it is the reality

[muted lantern]

probably due to the process of becoming a silkfly destroying the personality and memories of the original bug.

they are fairly mindless, but theres a glimmer there, something about sentinels creation was intended to cultivate that glimmer i think.

hence them being more of a person

Im not sure how the cogheart plays into that though.

[frosty gate]

So, in other words...

https://tenor.com/view/servoskull-gif-22081450

I hate how similar this is to fucking 40K

[muted lantern]

I always read it kinda like the fnaf animatronics honestly

[frosty gate]

The Heart seems to be the thing that powers the Sentinel

[frosty gate]

I guess that also makes sense?

I make the comparison to 40k because in 40k, they use Lobotomized humans for work and they're a mix between a slave and a machine

And it's a horrible horrible fate

Which feels like what they do here specifically

[muted lantern]

It seems to, but how, its just wheels and regulators. What is a regulator in this instance anyway?

Besides, theres still a matter of the reserve bind, which is something unique to the sentinels order. it being a reserve implies it uses up silk elswhere, like its reserve power. Thats why im still uncertain if silk is fuel.

It honestly likely that the sentinel is steam powered? regulators seem to be something about gas pressure.

[frosty gate]

God knows

[muted lantern]

It might be for steam power, regulators are to do with gas pressure apparently. Which lines up with other cogworks using steam.

The reserve bind could still function as just an adreniline shot, supercharging the silkflies capabilities for a time

[frosty gate]

He doesn't release any steam tho

[frosty gate]

I agree

[muted lantern]

true, and the cogwork cleanser doesnt seem to be powered by steam, it just uses it to clean. However the word choice of regulator does seem important. could it be to regulat steam output from high exertion of the cogs, so as to keep it from overheating while in intense combat?

There are actually other types of regulators.

[pale narwhal]

maybe each fragment hold a silkfly

[muted lantern]

Sentinels only seem to contain one silkfly. theres four silkflies in the boss room with four dead sentinels.

[grave stream]

how does hornet not remember the face of Herrah if she convieniently knew exactly how to visit her through teleportation

because she arrives about a minute late after you kill herrah

its implied that the red memory/birth was the last time she ever saw her

[muted lantern]

My best guess is hinted at through red memory. "...But to recall these words, in time so far... Will you even remember me, child? Could you?...
...A mother... before the mask... before I lay forever in duty..." She speaks as if she wonders if hornet will remember her as she is in that moment, specifically describing herself at that point as "... A mother... before the mask" as if shes not currently wearing a mask. My best guess is herrahs not actually wearing the dreamer mask in this moment, and the blurry image of that mask is there because thats the only face she can remember of her mother. She cant remember how herrah truly looked "before the mask"

[grave stream]

makes sense

canonically what is the reason for wearing the mask

because Monomon just.... doesn't have a face

[pale narwhal]

or she justvwalked in while you were in the dream plane

[frosty gate]

It's a seal

Presumably containing the mind of the Dreamer

[grave stream]

was monomon not sealed?

[frosty gate]

Yes, and her mask was also sent away with Quirrel

[grave stream]

i know that

[frosty gate]

No mask, no face

[grave stream]

ok

so herrah didn't have a face either?

[pale narwhal]

her body seemed to disappear without it

an extra layer of protection it was called

[frosty gate]

Herrah did have a face, Hornet just can't remember it

[grave stream]

also isn't hornet like 0% hallownestian

or is herrah from hallownest

i thought they were kinda like a caravan

[frosty gate]

She's the daughter of the King, so she is very Hallownestian

[frosty gate]

Nah Herrah is from Pharloom

[grave stream]

but the king isnt from hallownest

im talking about biologically?

[frosty gate]

Hallownest wasn't Hallownest before he came about

[muted lantern]

I imagine it was engraved with runes that enforced the sealing and kept her asleep.

hence why the masks are the seals on the black egg

[pale narwhal]

he founded hallownest

[frosty gate]

Hallownest is the Kingdom he founded

[grave stream]

technically not

he improved it

a lot

[frosty gate]

There was no Kingdom in those caves

It was just Tribes

[grave stream]

oh yeah

i guess you're right

[frosty gate]

Under his rule, it became a Kingdom

[grave stream]

but what i'm saying is that hornet was born in hallownest, but she is biologically not from the LOCATION now named hallownest

she is technically not native to the lands?

[frosty gate]

She is the daughter of the Founder and she was born in the caves so she is from Hallownest

[grave stream]

ok

genetically?

[fresh badger]

What do you mean biologically and genetically 😭

[frosty gate]

I get what he means

The Wyrm isn't from Hallownest

[grave stream]

i know there are titles but at core herrah is not from that area and pale king is not from that area

[fresh badger]

We hatin immigrants in here huh

[frosty gate]

Her genes would technically not be from the caves at all

[grave stream]

she is the daughter of two SETTLERS

[frosty gate]

She's not from the caves, she's from the Kingdom

A weird thing to make a distinction, but yeah I guess

[grave stream]

i mean not to be racist but in my life the only black person i've ever seen put me in a jar and locked me away still..........

[fresh badger]

Genes have nothing to do with location 😭

Hornet proclaims herself a daughter of Hallownest 🥀

[grave stream]

not to be racist but.....

[frosty gate]

Yeah, but he means that her parents are not originary from the Caves now known as Hallownest

[grave stream]

the only black guy i have ever met sucked

a really bad first impression

[frosty gate]

Caves ≠ Hallownest

[fresh badger]

Brother is baiting so so so hard

[muted lantern]

Thought he was being racist but then realized hes just grubposting

[grave stream]

what

the black guy sucks

[fresh badger]

@sinful nimbus can we use Coldshard to make computer hard drives

Since its whole thing is having material memory

[grave stream]

although hornet is the daughter of hallownest genetically she is not

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

Hallownest cuisine vs Pharloom engineering

[forest lynx]

hallownest cuisine gifted power

Pharloom engineering
pure effort

[grave stream]

what are they preparing 🙏

[muted lantern]

Honestly im still debating whether or not second sentinel needs to be resuplied with silk to funciton.

despite all thats been discussed

i just cant decide.

[fresh badger]

Isnt it fueled by the silkfly

Like 4chorus

[grave stream]

it is

i think

maybe

[forest lynx]

idk I just think it needs a heart and that’s it

[frosty gate]

But she is, because the Caves aren't Hallownest, they pulled the Ol' USA with Mexico

[fresh badger]

We also see a silkfly for each of its fallen sentinels in its arena

[frosty gate]

It's technically stolen land

Although it had no owner from what we know

[grave stream]

genetically, she is not hallownestian.

[forest lynx]

where’d the silkfly as we put in the heart tho

[frosty gate]

Except QG

[fresh badger]

Comatose in its skull ig 💀

[fresh badger]

Brother sincerely please stop 😭

[frosty gate]

I quit 🚪 🚶‍♂️

[muted lantern]

well it needs a silkfly too, and we can see that it's body contains silk at least. Just not if it consumes it or uses it like a nervous system to control it's limbs. The cogheart is made of wheels and regulators, and seems to be just integral mechanical part rather than a power source. Its presence is just required for anything to work irregardless of power. We know other cogworks function without coghearts as they werent made to need them.

Honestly with how cogflies function without any silk I have no clue if the cogworks need traditional power at all

[grave stream]

i personally beleive they fly with the power of, you're not gonna beleive it, fiction

[silk dirge]

cogflies probably use silk

just very small amounts of it

id imagine a bunch of other powered stuff hornet uses need tiny bits of silk also

like cogwork wheel

hornet tool crafting is so funny when you realize in like a millisecond shes crafting something flick would take his entire lifetime to make

[muted lantern]

Yeah probably, they do seem to spray out some silk when hit, im just trying to determine if the silk needs to be resupplied, or the initial silk lasts a lifetime. Mainly for if second sentinel would need hornets silk to keep it functioning.

I do like the idea that twistriker proposed that its kind of like the wiring/nervous system that transmits signals from the silkfly, im not sure if that would need to be replaced.

[glossy flare]

it’s fake

hornet and lace are just rivals

(idc if this is probably a joke)

[muted lantern]

Are you doing a bit? no.

Lace is a child, btw, shes explicitly described as such

[glossy flare]

she was made to be a child but she’s probably pretty old by now; she can’t age physically or mentally

[muted lantern]

Its kinda a peter pan situation, in that shes lived a long time but is still a kid.

Thats how caretaker puts it anyway.

[abstract brook]

are the snail shamans all void?

[glossy flare]

probably not

[muted lantern]

None of them are made of void, they just look like that.

[glossy flare]

they’re only confirmed to be able to manipulate void, but there’s no indication of them being made of void

[abstract brook]

ohh ok ok

[muted lantern]

They can't directly manipulate void, but they can call it via ritual. Their main magical ability is soul manipulation. And the void actively seeks soul, so i imagine they use it like bait.

Ie the snare quest they use the snare to open a portal straight into the void essentially.

but the portal itself is soul magic.

[glossy flare]

huh I didn’t know they couldn’t manipulate it directly

I’m rusty on my hk lore

[muted lantern]

They are essentially soul experts with an obsession with the occult and forbidden powers.

[glossy flare]

lol

[muted lantern]

to be fair it's never stated directly, though in the first game the shaman implies he doesnt dabble in void, and the shamans in this game only describe their relation with void as a fixation. But shamans seem to be tied directly to soul magic as like an innate power they have.

[glossy flare]

given how 99% of this game’s lore is mildly implied I’d imagine that’s true

[bleak maple]

can anyone pls explain to me why is GMS saying "our waking" and not like.. my waking?

[glossy flare]

I think it’s the Weavers not GMS

or something

yk what idrk

[cunning veldt]

thats the weavers, not GMS, ur hearing the weavers thoughts

[bleak maple]

OH

wait that's actually like makes sense

Lace and Phantom was made out of Weavers silk

but who's them then in "...Better a child spun pure... than them..."?

[craggy smelt]

no, it's all Grand Mother Silk, you're hearing her thoughts - it becomes more clear when you get the other silk hearts
the weavers are mostly all dead
the 'our waking' is like the royal we

[bleak maple]

hm

thanks

[glossy flare]

lore is weird in these games

[bleak maple]

theres no lore

[glossy flare]

what

[muted lantern]

Gms speaks with the royal "we"

Some royalty just refer to themselves as we to sound higher i think historically.

we, us, our, all fall under the royal plural.

Honestly i thought white lady was speaking in the royal plural in red memory but checking back it seems to be shes genuinely just speaking of herself and either the king or vespa and herrah, bc she switches to i later.

[shell oracle]

Theory:
So silksong confirmed hornet had mates so I think I know what one might have been
So basically the hunters journal confirmed she's envious of bugs with wings she hates poor hygiene adores warriors and loves fluff and hornet has been trained in the hive so my theory is hive knight was one of hornets mates
And if you say hive knight got Infected it didn't die
You can interpret getting infected as dying and silksong happened many years after hollow knight so we can also assume hornet didn't know he had been infected yet until the knight killed him
(Also quirrel might of been one but I doubt it)

[muted lantern]

I've heard the theory before, it's certainly possible.

[stray fog]

That might be why vespa decided to train hornet

"look mom here's my girlfriend"

[shell oracle]

Honestly makes sense ngl I never thought that

[muted lantern]

I always assumed vespa was entrusted with hornet because herrah and vespa were a thing.

[bleak maple]

any idea what specimen can Grand Mother Silk be?

she dosent really look like any bug at all

like super at all

[heavy gyro]

She's a weird spider

[bleak maple]

yeah fair

also duh poor Snail Shaman bro from hk

[viscid ridge]

If you look at her main body she looks like a spider, but overall being a god made of silk its just abstract shapes in terms of lore

[bleak maple]

truth

[heavy gyro]

She has 8 arms too

[bleak maple]

citadel is much bigger then we see in the game right..

[viscid ridge]

Thats just the ventrica, the actual citidel is much bigger

[shell oracle]

I have a question
Why did you think herrah and vespa were a thing like I'm genuinely curious

[muted lantern]

Oh just because i thought it would be neat, theres no evidence for it. Its just a neat explanation for why the hive (a group that is notoriously isolationist) would allow the princess of hallownest (a kingdom who vespa says she will have no involvment with) to live with her, unless the mother of said princess was important enough to vespa to allow such an exception.

It kinda just is a headcanon to resolve that plothole of why vespa would take hornet in. considering the lore in the first game about the hive being extremely isolationist.

and not wanting any involvment with hallownest.

[shell oracle]

Yes that makes sense but I'll choose to believe that the reason vespa took hornet in was because well hornet was the mate of the hive knight

[muted lantern]

the main issue with that is hornet would probably only meet hive knight after moving into the hive. due to the previously stated isolationist thing. Hornet likely moved into the hive right after the sealing when she was still pretty young. Not to say she couldn't have dated hive knight, im actually rather fond of the headcanon. Just that any relationship probably could have only formed whilst they trained toghether in the hive, or after.

The general timeline to my understanding is: hornet is born and lives with herrah, herrah is sealed. Hornet is moved to the hive and trains with vespa. Hornet after finishing her training moves into the white palace and is raised by the white lady.

[silver meadow]

I completely agree.

Hi everyone

[vivid kernel]

It’s a tuff weaver thing lwk

Prolly not

Idk abt you but I see some resemblance to Eva

[marble oasis]

Hive Knight would have been fully grown at the time no? He protected Vespa when she was alive and small

[stray fog]

The thing above her head looks like gms's crown

[silver meadow]

However, I don't believe that GMS wanted to kill Hornernet in this traditional sense, if they wanted to, they would have done it from the beginning, it was all based on a plan, however, silksong from what I understand is based quite a bit on religion, that's what I noticed

[stray fog]

But that's the only similarity I noticed

[marble oasis]

Also, she likes fuzzy things because she lived in the Hive not necessarily because she mated with a bee

[vivid kernel]

Man idk I fear that it’s just a weaver since hollow knight came out 8 years before silksong

[stray fog]

Other bugs (markoth, xero, radiance, monomon) have those tentacle like things

Probably a part of their cloak

[vivid kernel]

Nope on a rope gang this does not make sense lwk

It’s just a weaver my rootie toot toot

Prolly not

She made the weavers

But isn’t a weaver I think

Ehhh

Not really

She’s a god lwk so like

It’s just HIGHLEY unlikely

Prolly not

[edgy nebula]

from unn we can see that higher beings can make species which dont have to look like them

i dont think gms' appearance was an issue

[vivid kernel]

It wouldn’t even make sense for her to wear a mask

[edgy nebula]

yes but the weavers didnt know that

[vivid kernel]

They only found that out later

She lied to them about their origins

The damn hair

Let that sink it

It wouldn’t gang

Just let this sink in

Good grief bro

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1368389364471697491/1451041524715622522/image0.gif

Just let it go bro

This didn’t happen

[quartz flicker]

Do you think there's an intended story reason for the Fragile Flower and Everbloom behaving completely differently in gameplay?

FF doesn't quell the Void Tendrils in HK.

[silver meadow]

However, it has a lot of lore and I think there are many things that tend to be interpreted from different perspectives by each of us. There are also parts of the items, the charms that some Bosses drop in some cases make some things make sense. I've seen various perspectives, some of them stand out, some not so much. I guess there are things that escaped me.

[robust wagon]

I doubt there is a reason beyond gameplay

[spring merlin]

Pure physical form directly from “lands serene” vs pulled out from memory

The delicate flower obvs breaks in one hit and doesn’t really do anything in the Hallownest abyss but “consuming” the shade lord (or whatever you want to call it) is probably a more impressive anti-void feat than what the everbloom did in Silksong

[marble oasis]

Delicate Flower was picked long ago

Everbloom is much fresher

[silver meadow]

However, the Everbloom was used and played an essential role in the battle with Lost Lace if the player chooses to redeem her. However, I remember that there was a mission in the previous Hollow Knight where you had to transport the flower without destroying it, if I remember correctly.🤔

[twilit crest]

Can Hornet canonically beat the Tarnished? Serious inquiry

I’m leaning toward yes

Her agility is pretty bombed, so mobility is more than covered.

[viscid ridge]

Hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby

Absolutely she would

The Tarnished is like the gaming equivalent of homelander

[crystal veldt]

how does grandmother silks haunting even work? Are they controlled like puppets on a string??

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, silk is stuck in the bodies of bugs, and then grandmother silk is able to control the bugs its stuck in

[crystal veldt]

how is she able to do this while still asleep in the coccoon then

[viscid ridge]

Do you know yogsathoth?

[crystal veldt]

not even a semblance of an idea what that is

go on

[viscid ridge]

Ok then, its the most powerful god in the lovecraftian mythos

It is sleeping, and the entire universe exists in its dream

Its kinda like that, although she is still asleep she has the ability to control them. Be that on purpose or on instinct.

[crystal veldt]

ohh

makes sense then

[viscid ridge]

And we also assume she made phantom and lace even though she was asleep. It feels to me she is doing all of this stuff subconsciously

Because she feels betrayed by her first children

[crystal veldt]

i wonder if you could theoretically bind lace or phantom

[viscid ridge]

Probably, we bind GMS, so if we ever got the chance we could?

[crystal veldt]

actually some kidn of silk being crest sounds awesome

imagine having infinite silk skills but when you go below the silk you've already got you lose 1 mask per skill

[quartz flicker]

Weird that it took so long to draw a line in the sand around shipping discussions.

I've always considered Hornet and Shakra to be way more compelling as a potential couple since they like and respect each other.

Shakra even enjoys endlessly dueling with Hornet while never outright killing her.

And Shakra it's so interesting how you put your life on the line to defend Hornet's new home in Act 3.

[viscid ridge]

Yeah cause the fandom shipped hornet and lace for 6 years before the game came out only to find out its hellah inappropriate, so they tried to gaslight themselves into thinking it wasn't 💀

[shell oracle]

Hive knight was born from vespa

[marble oasis]

What does that have to do with what I said

[spring merlin]

Because she’s starting to wake up

[crystal veldt]

sorry if this is a weird queswtion but id ont see how its all-that innapropriate?

its not like they're related, and imo they fit nicely as a pair

[spring merlin]

Its really depends on how you view it, on one hand Lace is basically said to be shaped to look and act like child (and Hornet even still calls a child in the end of act 3) but on the other she’s mature enough to basically have an existential crisis and mostly tries to break free out how she was shaped

imo it makes sense that people ship them but shippers are also just so obnoxious in general

[crystal veldt]

fair enough

shipping lowks hould've never become something other than just saying "hey lol wouldnt they look cute together"

[spring merlin]

Tho I will kinda give it to them that Hornet stops referring to Lace as a child the one time she herself also calls herself that, although she continues calling Lace that in act 3

[fresh badger]

Children cant have an existential crisis?

[quick geyser]

When Lace’s Character is all about escaping a role that restricted her from having her own very identity, existential crisis is used as a way for the game to tell players that Lace couldn’t be the perfect eternally loyal child GMS desired

Considering that Lace and THK also has some parallels, the idea of an eternal child was as impossible as the idea of a Hollow Knight

That being said, Lace canonically got the look of a child so there’s that I guess

[pliant meadow]

'...and a mind to match', as the caretaker says

[quick geyser]

I think people are taking Caretaker’s words as if we didn’t see Lace’s childish facade slips sometimes. Sure, about the look, that pretty hard to argue against. But how does Caretaker know about what Lace is truly thinking and feeling?

[fresh badger]

Dawg its a lil weird for the game to constantly beat the player over the head with characters calling Lace a child, and for you to try and argue she's not

[quick geyser]

Shakra also constantly called Hornet a child for like almost 2/3 of the game 😭

I also would like to see somebody actually addressing my argument tho

[fresh badger]

"How do we know how a character truly is outside of the times we see them or hear about them"

That isnt an argument

[quick geyser]

Dawg please 💔

[fresh badger]

🥀

[quick geyser]

I think people who are interested in analyzing a character and basically enjoy dismantling writing would pay attention to this

To all of arguments I made because 2/3 of my argument is literally about character writing

And you know, I’m not even a shipper

I’m just very interested in writing

[spark valve]

lace's character writing is about her resenting her nature for how she was created and being a child forever is a huge part of that

there's no facade

she thinks and feels like a child

[twilit crest]

Thats one way to look at it

[spark valve]

it is explicitly the case

[twilit crest]

Who told u that

[spark valve]

the game

repeatedly

over and over

[twilit crest]

So you say

It seems interpretable to me esp given the themes

[spark valve]

it really isn't

[twilit crest]

Cap

Who made u boss

[spark valve]

not everyone is brainrotted by a ship that existed the better part of a decade prior to releast that they have to ignore the actual game to rationalize around it

[twilit crest]

Thats an interesting way to view people

I didnt even say i was a shipper lmfao

I respected your outlook, and gave mine. Seems uncool to call it brainrotted just for saying i felt the games themes informed a different interpretation.

Killed chat with tolerance rip

[quick geyser]

I doubt the “being a child forever” is true. And we will need to go back to the first game to figure out why. I think I already stated that Lace and THK have some parallels to each others (Considering that Lace canonically reminded Hornet of her siblings and other evidence I’m too lazy to mention). I even went as far as saying Lace was the hollow knight of silksong. Now about the writing part, THK was given the role of a “Hollow knight” before it was even born, its fate was predestined. But Ultimately, THK wasn’t truly hollow, some of PV cut dream dialogue even implied that it tried to convince itself that it was Hollow. Similarly, Lace was given the role of an “eternally loyal child” before she was even created, but we know she was definitely not “loyal” nor was she an eternal child. She resented her mother and her own existence for that, and even described herself as “An empty husk shaped to ACT like a child” (Empty husk? That sounds pretty…hollow.). Finally, Lace’s character also contribute to a message that not only exist in SS but also in HK: Breaking your own fate. For instance, the knight was born as a vessel and its purpose was to take place as “The Hollow Knight”, but as you all know, in order to get a better ending, The knight must confronted his birth place and make the decision to end the cycle once and for all. Hornet was born part weaver and wyrm, and was believed to ultimate upsurp GMS and took her place, but we know that in order to get the better ending, she must resist that nature and save the kingdom on her own term

[spark valve]

lace and thk are in fact different stories with different themes

[twilit crest]

They are sequels of each other

[spark valve]

lace isn't loyal but she is eternally a child which is why she isn't loyal

[twilit crest]

Thats not nothing

[quick geyser]

PARALLELS. I could also explain why they do, in fact I think I did a long time ago

Let me see if I can find it

[twilit crest]

Lace mightve been created to be a child forever but i think the themes of the game demonstrate that she turned out to be more

[spark valve]

the parallels are devaluing themselves because of how they were created not that their limitations or the oddities from their creation are the same

they aren't

[twilit crest]

You speak with certainty but idk

[quick geyser]

Oh it here I think

[spark valve]

lace's arc is about accepting that her existence is abnormal and that that's acceptable and she doesn't have to kill herself over it

not that the abnormalities don't exist

that would cheapen the fuck out of her entire story

[twilit crest]

Lace's arc is about rejecting gms and learning to become her own creature free of the citadel's wishes. More or less, growing up

Its specifically about ending childhood in my eyes

[spark valve]

no she's already doing that lol

[twilit crest]

U just arent seeing it and thats ok

In red dream theres all this thematic dialogue about how children are becoming more than their parents design for them. And how lucky hornet was in comparison to lace

[quick geyser]

Cheapen YOUR version of the story. I even explained how her story has the same message as The knight and Hornet

[twilit crest]

Its pretty interesting

[spark valve]

red memory is a contrast between herrah and gms it doesn't change how lace was made

[quick geyser]

Would actually appreciate if people respect other views and delve into it

[spark valve]

some are wrong

[twilit crest]

Honestly i doubt it. Their last 10 msgs have just been so many ways of saying "nuh uh"

Excellent ragebait potential.

[quick geyser]

With how fast they reply to my message, I doubt they read the entirety of it

[twilit crest]

Its possible we can get some more information and thus clairty in dlc

[spark valve]

some people can in fact read

[quick geyser]

Probably read the opening and ignore the rest

[twilit crest]

True

Some people read with intent to respond rather than listen

If anything the apparent nuance and disagreement is proof in itself of the interpretability of things

[quick geyser]

If you really read my entire comment then you got some insanely fast reading time and typing time. I’m pretty sure that is like 2-3 seconds before you responded

[spark valve]

you did not write very much

[twilit crest]

Dont let them ragebait

[quick geyser]

Depends on what you considers “much”, even then being able to dismiss my entire argument within the timespan of 2-3 seconds do say a lot though

[spark valve]

I mean yeah it's easy to dismiss stuff that isn't even really relevant to the point

thk not being pure (and tk not being pure) is something established by the game, with lace the development is that she can have a future despite her nature not that her nature was false

[quick geyser]

How surprising considering more than half of the reply was explaining why it is relevant

[twilit crest]

Who told u this

[spark valve]

the game

hornet

[twilit crest]

Doubt

[spark valve]

yours was life pale one

[twilit crest]

The way i saw it, the game was telling us that lace was always going to become more than gms created her for, that the idea of a designed existence was a farce from the very beginning

[spark valve]

she is just not in that way

[twilit crest]

Sure

Whatever u say

[quick geyser]

The thing is you don’t seems to even CONSIDER or try to dismantle the argument. All you said Is that “No, Lace’s character is actually insert the version you described” instead of explaining why it is completely impossible for my side to be true

[twilit crest]

I think my version is a little more in line with the overall themes of the game, and arguably the series if you stretch a little.

The ways children are propelled by the actions of their parents

[twilit crest]

Its just ragebait dwai

[spark valve]

yeah the stuff the game explicitly says is just ragebait sure

tc was just trolling

[twilit crest]

False claim

[quick geyser]

You know, I have more than THK parallels to back up my argument if you want

[spark valve]

there's a difference between thematics and diegetics thematic parallels don't entail diegetic similarities

[stray fog]

Transsexual tapeworm is a hilarious username

[twilit crest]

Its my drip

[twilit crest]

Does tc know that

[spark valve]

and nobody is saying gms wasn't wrong about lace in some ways it's just not about her being an eternal child it's about lace having free agency to work against her

[twilit crest]

Lol so strict with these made up rules lol

[spark valve]

which is... more similar to the way pk was wrong about thk anyways

[twilit crest]

Id agree w you if red dream didnt blow everything up for me

It was the game staring the viewer in the face and essentially telling you what is happening in the story

A lot of stories do this

Your most basic literary analysis

[quick geyser]

“This weak wasting existence? This was not a life, this was just an empty husk shaped to act like a child”
“No, yours was a life”
Don’t you think this is the way the game tell you that What Lace thinks about herself is wrong?. She wasn’t an empty husk shaped to act like a child, she wasn’t a weak wasting existence, she was a life that is capable of change

[spark valve]

yes it's pretty straightforward what red memory is saying but you don't seem to have gotten it

[spark valve]

what's wrong isn't her being a child it's the value judgement lace makes about it

[twilit crest]

"burn yourself free from our sad fate"

[spark valve]

Yours was life, pale one. Do not confuse your unique creation with its absence. I have seen others make the same mistake

[fresh badger]

[halcyon merlin]

is this supposed to refer to the vessels

[spark valve]

hornet's not saying lace's gripes with her own existence aren't correct she's saying that doesn't make her worthless

[quick geyser]

Oh look at that, Lace reminding Hornet of the vessels

[spark valve]

ok so you are just gonna deliberately ignore the point

[quick geyser]

Don’t worry I will address it

[fresh badger]

Is that actually even about the vessels

[spark valve]

probably

[fresh badger]

Like how would the vessels communicate they think theyre not actually living 😭

[spark valve]

but people are just gonna pretend that because there's any conceptual connection that definitely means lace isn't an eternal child actually because blah blah blah

[halcyon merlin]

the idea that pale king put on them

[fresh badger]

???

[halcyon merlin]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[gentle aspen]

They’d have to get taught how to speak

[quick geyser]

If the message here is that “You will forever be a child and will never be capable of growing out of that but it is okay” then it doesnt seems to be a good message

[gentle aspen]

that’s not the message

[halcyon merlin]

what else could it be if not the vessels

hmm

[twilit crest]

Thats what im sayin

[spark valve]

the message is about people with less than ideal conditions not being invalid because of them that's not a bad message lol

[gentle aspen]

reading the message at that is intentionally negative because you can’t realize lace is a child

[twilit crest]

Its not only obvious that the theme is touching on the concept of children growing beyond the limitations of their parents, but its also the more ideal interpretation imo.

Itd be one thing to disagree but to act so brazen abt it kinda blows

[spark valve]

and yet it's not the one in the game

[twilit crest]

Like lol

Bro is playing an entirely different game perhaps

[gentle aspen]

Not for lace, no

[twilit crest]

Disagree

As the foil to hornet, id like to think lace is being told the same thing through the arc

Perhaps we will know more with dlc

[spark valve]

hornet isn't about growing beyond the limitations of her parents either

[twilit crest]

Disagree. Just look at the endings

Look at the dialogue for silk and soul

Hornet is very much trying to decide if she can be more than weaver and wyrm

[spark valve]

none of those are remotely relevant

[twilit crest]

Maybe not to you but its clear as day to me

[quick geyser]

In my perspective, doesn’t that kind of make Hornet Ableist? NOW before you get start to commenting, just read this for a second. In summary, you are saying that the message here is that a person existence isn’t worthless despite their not ideal condition, yes? But if Hornet knows that and continue calling her a child in front of her, wouldn’t it kind of like continuously calling a cripple person “crippled”? You are still constantly emphasizing their disability in their face and dont see the person as more than that

[spark valve]

trying to overcome her weaver and wyrm stuff is about breaking the cycle of power

[gentle aspen]

Hornet like

Explicitly tells her what her theme is

[spark valve]

no it doesn't make her ableist yes I did read the whole thing it's just stupid and gross

[gentle aspen]

After the 2nd fight

[twilit crest]

Thats only one facet of it i feel like.

[quick geyser]

At least address it damn

[gentle aspen]

Dude what the fuck?

[spark valve]

no because it's disgusting to even try to pull that and you should feel ashamed

[gentle aspen]

No!

[twilit crest]

Theres the cycle of power but theres also the strong themes of motherhood and what you do with it

[gentle aspen]

Don’t equate lace being a child to being crippled????

[twilit crest]

There is also themes about what to do without a god, kind of tying back to the motherhood thing

[gentle aspen]

And like

You don’t grow out of being crippled either

Jeez man

[twilit crest]

But lace does grow out of being a child

So idk about the disability thing either

[quick geyser]

Don’t ask me, Tammo said that Lace character was that her value doesn’t decrease despite her not ideal conditions. And what could you possibly interpret out of that?

[twilit crest]

Also u should stop saying that word

[gentle aspen]

What the fuck

[twilit crest]

Nah they make a point

[spark valve]

'life has inherent value even when the person doesn't see it'
'dur hur you're saying hornet is ableist'

ok

shut up

[gentle aspen]

that’s a disgusting point to make

[twilit crest]

Oh look making dur hur jokes and yet also not being ableist

I wonder how that works

[quick geyser]

Dude I quite literally just paraphrasing your comment. But I will apologize in advanced in case I’ve offended anyone

[spark valve]

no you didn't

[twilit crest]

Is it wrong to point out something they have an issue with? Its not like they ever said at any point that they agree with the accused stance

[quick geyser]

???

[gentle aspen]

you don’t get to make someone’s point for them and then call them ableist

That’s frankly dishonest

[gentle aspen]

“Less than ideal conditions” doesn’t entail being disabled

having shitty parents not being forced to go under their whims being abused

[twilit crest]

If you see something you think is abelist why not call it out as such, even if its a misunderstanding, you only know this by working it out

[quick geyser]

Dude

[twilit crest]

Now THAT is abelist

[gentle aspen]

what the hell?

[spark valve]

[quick geyser]

Alright I will need you to calm down cause you are making a bad image of me 😭

[twilit crest]

What is your litmus for "less than ideal conditions"?

[gentle aspen]

you know what

no

I’m not doing this

and frankly I’m just gonna block you because what the fuck?

[twilit crest]

This wouldnt be happening if people took other's interpetations resepctfully

Let the record show that anyway

[spark valve]

no it wouldn't be happening if you didn't just randomly decide to accuse somebody of ableism weirdo

[gentle aspen]

You are quite literally the person who just accused me of being ableist

so uh yeah I’m blocking you and leaving this conversation

bye

[spark valve]

yeah same what a trash fire 💀

[twilit crest]

What is your litmus for "less than ideal conditions" til you see it as disability

Especially in fiction

[quick geyser]

The argument that involved ableism was bring up to oppose Lace not being a child before. Not one person has a problem about it so I thought I could

Very friendly discussion 😭

[twilit crest]

Anyways cooler heads shouldve prevailed here

[quick geyser]

At least that what I hoped for

[twilit crest]

We shouldnt be judgemental off something like literary analysis

[spark valve]

<@&283547423706447872>

[quick geyser]

Didn’t notice that n word

[twilit crest]

That wat

[quick geyser]

And you know, I didn’t even accuse anyone here of being ableist. I bring up the scenario “Wouldn’t that make Hornet….” 😭

I’m pretty sure someone even did the same thing before and got zero attention too

[twilit crest]

Also for the record i never said joker was abelist, only that an argument he made was, and asked for further explanation, which wasnt given.

If i said "joker you are ableist" pls show me

Reacts from an account with no prior messages lmao

Alt possibly

[spice wraith]

I’m not lmfao

[twilit crest]

Then maybe you can answer my questin

[spice wraith]

I have many prior messages from an old account

[twilit crest]

There is no way im believing that im sorry

[spice wraith]

Fruit marm

[halcyon merlin]

🍅

isn't tomato a vegetable

[twilit crest]

Nah tomato fruit

[spice wraith]

Technically a fruit

[halcyon merlin]

what

how

[spice wraith]

Ye

[twilit crest]

Not even technically. Literally is a fruit

It has the seeds in the fruiting body

[halcyon merlin]

damn

[twilit crest]

Pizza time

[spice wraith]

I love being an alt

[twilit crest]

So about that sk lore

[glossy sentinel]

sk lore is on hiatus until barnacle bay is added

[twilit crest]

Alt with opp tendencies after not having a single message in the entire server

[halcyon merlin]

why do you love being an
astronomically
large
tower

[twilit crest]

Surely im wrong

Somehow

[spice wraith]

It’s quite enjoyable

[halcyon merlin]

hmm

[glossy sentinel]

go listen to The Mollusk by Ween for appropriate studying material before the Sea of Sorrow exam

[quick geyser]

Most peaceful Lace age discourse

[spice wraith]

Have u tried

[twilit crest]

Yes chef

[halcyon merlin]

no

[marble oasis]

Fuckkk I was just about to do a silkfly doc

[spice wraith]

Honestly you should

[gentle aspen]

Please keep all non lore discussions to another channel

[spice wraith]

Yes pookie

[halcyon merlin]

phantom gender

[twilit crest]

I tried to keep it on topic but got tomatoed

[quick geyser]

Nah that one pretty tamed

[halcyon merlin]

too much work

[halcyon merlin]

is it

hmm

[marble oasis]

Literally a fruit but technically a vegetable

[twilit crest]

If not an alt then a harasser <@&283547423706447872>

[twilit crest]

Ill take it

[halcyon merlin]

ok so its both

[quick geyser]

I don’t think you need to ping a mod for that 😭

[twilit crest]

Rule 1

[halcyon merlin]

now that we know how a tomato works

we can discover what sea of sorrow main boss will be

[river garnet]

react spamming is punishable

[twilit crest]

Ty time stranger

Digimon?

[river garnet]

ye

[twilit crest]

Sick

[marble oasis]

Tomato devil comeback

[twilit crest]

Somebody cooked here

[halcyon merlin]

😭