sk-lore

[dreamy onyx]

What else is she going to do tho
Hallownest has already been freed but it's a dead kingdom, even moreso than Pharloom
I would assume she just stays in Pharloom to help rebuild for a bit

[cedar sandal]

alright, so lace hornet Pharloom management sim dlc
I am fine with that

[bleak ridge]

I mean hallownest probably needs more help rebuilding then pharloom considering the fact that the minds of bugs already got freed and there's still bugs which can help revive it

[stray fog]

Hallownest is a lost cause

[heavy gyro]

Hallownest bugs are dead

[cedar sandal]

sk takes a long time aftr hk
hallownest may be a fine kingdom now

[bleak ridge]

There's a time gap between HK and SK, gotta consider that

[cedar sandal]

what happened to infected bugs after radiance died

[heavy gyro]

Most of them just died

[stray fog]

The re animated corpses died

[bleak ridge]

True but we don't specifically know how long the time gap was

[cedar sandal]

would PKs

Blessing thing still be intact

[stray fog]

Yes

[cedar sandal]

Oh so Hallownest can totally rebuild imo

The queen is also alive

[bleak ridge]

The queen doesn't really give a shit about the outside world, for all she knows the kingdom could still be infected

She doesn't even know Dryya is dead lel

[stray fog]

Would hornet go and inform her

[bleak ridge]

Plus she's so deep into hiding even the godseekers can't take her into their realm

[bleak ridge]

I mean, would hornet even know where she is?

[cedar sandal]

Is she not hiding from the radiance like pk was

[stray fog]

Probably

[bleak ridge]

She's not hiding exactly

[cedar sandal]

isn't their a dialouge that implies they are in contact

she also gave Hornet the everbloom so it means shes still alive

[bleak ridge]

I'm pretty sure not

[cedar sandal]

not in silkonsg

In hk

[stray fog]

I don't remember such a dialogue

[cedar sandal]

I geniunelly do have delusions so maybe its just me

[stray fog]

She says that hornet is a good fighter, she isnt her own daughter, and she doesn't hate herrah or hornet

[bleak ridge]

There's dialogue of the white lady talking about hornet but ofc she raised her so it would make sense to talk about her but nothing implies they still were in contact with eachother during the time you meet her

[edgy river]

Do we know how hornet got the mission to defend the kings brand and kill the other siblings?

Or if she just decided to do that herself

[cedar sandal]

prob

[edgy river]

In any way i don't think they were talking during HK

Because queen seems to imply she was waiting for a vessel, any vessel, to reach her. And she doesn't really know about you specifically

"It is true. True, that you were awaited. No. Perhaps that is inaccurate. True one like you was awaited."

Would make less sense to me if hornet had informed her about you, specifically

[cedar sandal]

she did want the knight to replace thk cause she believed the knight is pure(delusional)
so it does imply that she cares some bit about the kingdom

and wants it to recover

so maybe she would have taken leadership after the radiance was defeated

[edgy river]

I'm sure she cares about the kingdom. The whole deal with the vessels was made to maintain the kingdom anyways

And she feels shame about it

[scenic stirrup]

I hope sea of sorrow is chapter 4

[cedar sandal]

I too hope for that.....

[scenic stirrup]

[cedar sandal]

Lace content....tc please....tc....tc

[edgy river]

This i don't believe. She seems to have too much shame to even desire to be on the throne again

[scenic stirrup]

My dream would be like hornet and lace duo exploring some weird shit at sea on their way to hallownest

[edgy river]

But ig as hornet says, pale beings are genetically inclined to the idea of control so who knows

[cedar sandal]

yeah but at the same time, they still needed someone, the kingdom can't rebuild without guidance

[scenic stirrup]

Very unrealistic but i just want more content 🦅

[edgy river]

Yeah. I thought hornet would take on the role but she's.... Busy

[terse warren]

Water content in HK for the first time in 9 years btw

[edgy river]

THK seems to... Disconnected? And weirdly enough, hollow, for the job

[cedar sandal]

Lowkey

Ogrim as the new king of Hallownest

[terse warren]

The guy can't speak but I'm sure they'd help if they could

[terse warren]

Unironically most likely thing, well, that is if Hallownest even does have a comeback at all

[edgy river]

They sure have feelings but still is very.... Stoic

[terse warren]

Ogrim maybe will just help whoever comes after

[edgy river]

King Zote

[quick geyser]

An intellectual individual on Twitter reminded me of this line of dialogue…

[cedar sandal]

We entering statis again with this one🗣️ 🔥

[edgy river]

Recovering Hallownest seems difficult. The old capital will be a lake in a couple years if the water don't stop pouring down

They'd need to relocate

[terse warren]

Btw guys this channel is for Silksong not HK

[edgy river]

Most places are already inhabited by other types of bugs. Maybe kingdom's edge or ancient basin is their best bet.

Either that or build up dirtmount

[edgy river]

Oh yeah

[cedar sandal]

how hard can it be to just stop the water

like

get white lady to make roots and shut it up

get hornet to shut it with silk

[edgy river]

I got here and people were already discussing HK. And the lores are meshed together so it's easy to forget

[cedar sandal]

get ogrim to shut it with dung

[solar tapir]

Waterways still working

[terse warren]

Atp I'm not sure if lifeblood dlc could possibly save us from the retcon nightmares, or if it'll make everything worse

[cedar sandal]

After ETV.....

[terse warren]

@sinful nimbus how do you feel about your favorite part of Silksong getting a DLC

[edgy river]

If white lady without bindings should be extremely capable of terra forming anything as well

[solar tapir]

We dont know anything after etv

[edgy river]

She literally made the queens gardens be like that

[solar tapir]

our lord boy may just go to void

[sinful nimbus]

don't care about lifeblood
SUBMARINE SIM DLC

[edgy river]

Which retcon?

[terse warren]

Yes that's the joke

[terse warren]

Lifeblood never caused mutations like that-actually I'm too tired to have this discussion again

[cedar sandal]

Lowkey want Lifeblood to get its own game but Idt team cherry is interested in making another hk currently

[sinful nimbus]

smh i just woke up

[terse warren]

I mean they're making oke ty of DLC so I don't think they'll let go of the world any time soon

500 sequels

[terse warren]

Washed 🥀

My goat's a fraud

[edgy river]

What do u mean, joni

[terse warren]

Joni is magically tied to lifeblood and also her body was completely normal

[quick geyser]

Oh yeah we are definitely getting lifeblood content

This is literally undeniable proof

[sinful nimbus]

There's also the lifeblood tower in the trailer

[terse warren]

Like even if the lifeblood fluids weren't magical, she still looks completely fine

[terse warren]

Lighthouse

Life house

[terse warren]

Surely this means abyss content

[ember river]

No

[terse warren]

There is a 5% chance this is actually true

[heavy gyro]

Lifeblood and void seem to be linked somehow

[edgy river]

The king just didn't let lifeblood spread. The cientists were literally injecting it everywhere

Experimentaring with it

Makes a lot of sense to be

[ember river]

The lifeblood room being in the abyss is not nearly enough evidence to claim that lifeblood and void are linked

[heavy gyro]

There's also act 3 unless you assume it to be the passage of time

[cedar sandal]

its rock paper scissor
Void beats pale/soul, soul beats lifeblood, lifeblood beats void

[ember river]

It is the passage of time, though

[heavy gyro]

Why would the abyss creature be in a lifeblood room in godhome

Unless

[ember river]

Because it's more of a lifeblood creature related to lifeblood than a void creature related to void

It just happens to be in the abyss

[edgy river]

Plasmium is in offensive just like in HK at the beggining of SS. So maybe cocoons existing isn't the problem. But the constant use and experimentats with them is what caused the mutations

[sinful nimbus]

No Hornet says lifeblood infection happens whenever the substance flourishes and that she's seen it before

[heavy gyro]

We don't know when she saw it

[ember river]

Most of the lifeblood coccoons in HK were also isolated and sometimes sealed off, so most bugs wouldn't consume it

Also most bugs in Hallownest are taken over by the Radiance anyways

[sinful nimbus]

In which case we'd probably see it in Joni's Repose so it is an inconsistency but that's not an inherently bad thing

[cedar sandal]

oh thats a fun experiment
give radiance infected creatures lifeblood

[heavy gyro]

It could be that she saw lifeblood aberrations before hk

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[ember river]

I believe that not as many bugs would consume it if the vast majority are already infected

[cedar sandal]

give broken vessel lifeblood.
void+pale+lifeblood+radiance infection

holy

[ember river]

Hornet could have seen them while things were relatively normal

[ember river]

Is Broken Vessel truly infected or just puppeteered by those orange seeds

[heavy gyro]

Tbh lifeblood always seemed to be a parallel to the infection

[sinful nimbus]

It really didn't

[cedar sandal]

I actually have such a good pitch for the lifeblood game(mostly delusions)

[ember river]

Other than it making blobs of nectary liquid and having cells, not really

[heavy gyro]

Well that's a big reason

[ember river]

And even then I always assumed infection cells were just lifeblood cells that got infected

[heavy gyro]

Nah they were separate

[stray fog]

Yes

Hell nah lifeblood infection headcanon deniers detected

[ember river]

Differing opinions 🤮

[stray fog]

So true

My opinions are the only correct ones

Didn't you know

[terse warren]

Hornet says she sees it happen naturally in her home caves, and the king has been dead for a while by the time of HK, no reason for us not to see those things happen in the first game

[ember river]

Again, 90%, if not more of the bugs we see in HK are already infected

Why would they drink lifeblood in that state

[heavy gyro]

She never says naturally

[terse warren]

A parallel as in a similar but good thing, not haut infection but blue

[stray fog]

I always thought she was talking about the radiance infection

[terse warren]

She talks specifically about lifeblood

[terse warren]

You just need to be near it to be infected, that's what happened to the worms

[cedar sandal]

Unless she's color blind, blue and orange are vastly different things

[ember river]

She mentions lifeblood's effects several times, it's fair to assume she saw it in action

[ember river]

Nah, Zylotol and Zango were injecting them

[terse warren]

If allowed to prosper this substance yada yada

Allow to prosper means not having it under control aka it happens naturally

[stray fog]

Infact they're complementary colours lol

[terse warren]

They never inject the worms actually

[heavy gyro]

That's a subjective interpretation

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway beyond being awkward with the first game is just bad writing I'm sorry but we didn't need another Radiance ripoff nor did we need another thing to slander Hornet about 🥀

[terse warren]

That's kinda exactly what "allowed to proposer" means though

[heavy gyro]

Allow to prosper can literally mean anything

[terse warren]

It really doesn't

[heavy gyro]

You can artificially allow something to prosper

[terse warren]

That's not allowing, that's forcing

Allow implies passiveness

[heavy gyro]

Implies

So subjective

Got it

[sinful nimbus]

No

[stray fog]

No?

[dull harbor]

cram some silk in there and you got yourself a deal

[terse warren]

???

[sinful nimbus]

Implications aren't subjective idk what to say but you fundamentally don't understand how truth works

[ember river]

Hornet: There is an echo also of other infections I have witnessed. I wonder at the meaning of it all... or if I am perhaps imagining similarities where there are none.

she does mention a similarity with the infection

But that's about it

[terse warren]

!wiki Plasmidas

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Plasmidas

Hollow Knight Wiki

Plasmidas

Plasmidases are enemies in Hollow Knight: Silksong. They are the Plasmified forms of Groms.

Health

80

Drops

None

Damage Modifiers

1.25    1    1    0.9    0.9

Journal kills

6

[sinful nimbus]

TC lampshading their lack of new ideas 🥀

[heavy gyro]

Ok

[stray fog]

Wait why does their head become like zylotol ans zango

[cedar sandal]

Something can be implied and not be subjective

[terse warren]

"In my home caves, when once this substance was allowed to flourish, I saw similar aberrations. This is wonder tainted strong with revulsion."

[stray fog]

Their head structure is modified

[terse warren]

THIS SUBSTANCE

[heavy gyro]

Zylotol probably already indulged in the lifeblood

[ember river]

I'm not talking about that quote, it's a dialogue with zylotol

She mentions other infections

[terse warren]

Ok??

How is that relevant though?

[ember river]

The bugs below who have imbibed the substance and evolved... their bodies are filled with Plasmified Blood...

Also the bugs don't mutate by being near it, they mutate by consuming it

[heavy gyro]

Imply means it's not 100 percent certain therefore it depends on your thought

[stray fog]

Its about the connections of the infection to lifeblood

[ember river]

That she does draw a parallel with the radiance's infection, that's what I said

[terse warren]

No not really

[heavy gyro]

How

[terse warren]

If I say

[sinful nimbus]

Implies means its not explicitly stated not that its not for certain

[terse warren]

"Someone might get shot if my coffee isn't in this table in 5 seconds"

There is no ambiguity about the fact that it's me who's gonna shoot

[cedar sandal]

If I say I stopped smoking
It implies I used to smoke
Thats not subjective

[terse warren]

Even though it's implied

[ember river]

If a character says "Oh, Rival McAntagonist? I helped him 'move on' for good, you won't be hearing from him anytime soon" it's implied that Rival McAntagonist was killed because it's not confirmed

And it's not really subjective

[stray fog]

Rival McAntagonist

🔥

[heavy gyro]

Anywya

Allow doesn't necessarily mean passive

So yeah

[stray fog]

Not necessarily, but most probably

[cedar sandal]

in math
If A>B & B>C
It implies A>C
The world falls apart if you say thats subjective

[terse warren]

I allow you to eat chocolate, doesn't mean I'm shoving it down your throat

[sinful nimbus]

Allowing a plant to flourish usually means that you didn't cull it enough or wtv

That'd be a strange way to phrase someone else entirely injecting it into everyone

[heavy gyro]

More like you allow your chocolate eating tendencies and then you develop diabetes

[stray fog]

?

[terse warren]

Yes, that means I'm not actively fighting back against the tendencies

Ergo it's passive

[heavy gyro]

Lifeblood could spread but very slowly

[stray fog]

Anyway

This must be zylotol's master

[heavy gyro]

So allowing it to flourish means to speed it up

[ember river]

I allowed my needle to find its mark by tying the victim patient to a chair and stabbing them repeatedly

[terse warren]

Going back to this I don't see why being infected stops then from consuming lifeblood, even then it's not like everything is infected

[terse warren]

That's clearly not the traditional meaning of allow though lol

[cedar sandal]

Okay on that
If even pk was like "this shit is dangerous" then Radiance prob knew also

[ember river]

Because the Radiance wouldn't want the revival mind control goop inside their own revived, mind controlled stewards

[sinful nimbus]

More notably than the infected Joni herself shows no sign of plasmification

[cedar sandal]

so she didn't allow that

[ember river]

I know, it's agreeing with what star said

[terse warren]

It was "kinda taboo"

[heavy gyro]

Joni is built different fr

[terse warren]

Ohh

[ember river]

That is not allowing, that is forcing

[ember river]

On the words of Salubra, it was also heresy

[terse warren]

If the Radiance knew

[sinful nimbus]

Me booting up Hollow Knight: Refreshed to fight "Plasmified Joni"

[ember river]

Higher Beings have pretty good insight

...Most of the time

[terse warren]

[cedar sandal]

ancient higher being

[stray fog]

Joni retcon 💔💔

[cedar sandal]

prob knew

[ember river]

The Pale King gets too much shit

Imagine getting a prophecy of everything you've ever done failing without remedy

What would you do

[stray fog]

Not kill 1 million children

[cedar sandal]

I will say the most delusional and streched out things to defend pk my goat.....

[sinful nimbus]

If Rad knew she'd have told Soul Master to start experimenting with Lifeblood because it'd be really funny

[ember river]

Radiance starting another plague out of spite would be pretty on character

[whole holly]

i hope we bind this bug and claim it's crest

[stray fog]

What if the crest is permanent lifeblood mode

[cedar sandal]

until it starts devouring her own self oops

[heavy gyro]

Crest of the alchemist

[whole holly]

uhmm, okay, then plasmium injection wouldn't make sense though, probably just synergy

[stray fog]

Alchemist zylotol is blue
Lifeblood is like drugs
Alchemist = chemistry
Chemistry = john breaking bad
Blue drugs = crystal meth

John breaking bad = Alchemist zylotol confirmed

/j

And zango is jesse pinkmam

The shit post was so bad that it killed the chat

[whole holly]

Act 4: sea of sorrows

[heavy gyro]

Plasmium overdose would just make you die

[whole holly]

yeah

[heavy gyro]

💯

[cedar sandal]

Lace content please TEAM CHERRY I DO ANYTHING

[whole holly]

uhm what? it controls and resurrects people

[ember river]

Guess what needs to happen for you to resurrect

[whole holly]

if hornet and lace left pharloom together it makes total sense, maybe lace will be in danger and we have to save her

[stray fog]

Wait is hornet void???

Shes black

[ember river]

Yes

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but it also makes you a target for Hornet duh

[whole holly]

regardless, you don't die from lifeblood overdose though, Zylotol is immobilized and part of hivemind

[ember river]

Doesn't zylotol end up dying?

[cedar sandal]

.

[stray fog]

Lmao

[heavy gyro]

Zylotol top 3 silksong characters

[whole holly]

i think he is immobile and ceased existence in traditional sense and became part of lifeblood entirely

[lethal burrow]

he ends up "living" more they any other character some could argue

[whole holly]

unless lifeblood actually kills people

[ember river]

Your honor, I didn't kill him, I turned him immobile and cease existence in the traditional sense, he became part of lead entirely

[stray fog]

Can't wait for "fishbugs"

[whole holly]

not applicable or relevant analogy, lol

[cedar sandal]

I wonder if we ever get a lizard

in hk verse

[ember river]

If what the Radiance did was kill you, there's no reason to think Plasmium does anything else

Why would Zylotol be alive

[terse warren]

Because he thinks therefore he is

https://tenor.com/view/rene-decart-decartes-i-think-i-am-i-think-gif-15000598568860120443

[cedar sandal]

To live is to be self
Both infections take your sense of self
it may not kill you but you certainely arn't living

[whole holly]

i mean what is proof he is dead, wiki only says unresponsive because there is no sufficient evidence he is dead, otherwise they would have cited source

[terse warren]

This comic makes sense because Mango and Zylotol are also drugged up

[terse warren]

Well yes but wiki isn't all-knowing

[whole holly]

"Lifeblood and Infection have to be same even though how they spread and initially operate is totally different"

[ember river]

Geez, I wonder if the immobile mutated body full of a corrupting substance that wrecks your mind and can turn you into a zombie is dead or in a higher state of being

I think Nika is just a plasmium apologist trying to get us all hooked into the stuff

[cedar sandal]

if we only listen to wiki then there be no fun in making theories

[ember river]

The lifeblood agenda is real

[frigid belfry]

completely fish looking animal but he has a bug torso (tc special)

[ember river]

Also the wiki is written by normal people

[stray fog]

Exactly

[whole holly]

i never said it was, but it is better some conclusions even though everyone looks down on it

[ember river]

They aren't TC loremasters or anything

[whole holly]

who is insinuating that they are?

[ember river]

Nobody?

[stray fog]

The wiki bases everything on concrete evidence, so its not the best for theorizing

[ember river]

But the wiki isn't inherently a more reliable source of information than observation and discussion

[heavy gyro]

Clearly sea of sorrows will be a monomon origin story

[whole holly]

how is that disadvantage

[stray fog]

The wiki relies on information that is 99.9% sure to be true, but for theorizing, we obviously need to lower that

[ember river]

(We can't claim baseless nonsense as the truth)

[ember river]

This is uh

Not a good thing to do

[terse warren]

Not really

[whole holly]

but they are asserting is as fact though

[sinful nimbus]

Wiki does NOT do ts

[frigid belfry]

the wiki is generally more reliable than discussion, but it isnt objective nor perfect

[stray fog]

One time I said "unn is a slug" and mfs said "um actually that is not confirmed by tc so unn can be anything"

Like use your eyes bro

[sinful nimbus]

Kid named weaver lore page 🥀

[ember river]

The wiki has a weaver lore page?

[lethal burrow]

what do you all think of the surface being where the god seekers were

[heavy gyro]

Radiance moth moment

[stray fog]

Probably true

[terse warren]

Unn is a slug to us but not in-universe

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[lethal burrow]

why not

[terse warren]

Ok well it's not confirmed

[lethal burrow]

What constitutes confirmation?

[whole holly]

why does it have to be, most people who refute is have more baseless claim

[frigid belfry]

unn is the radiance

[terse warren]

We don't even know if "slug" is an actually species in canon

[heavy gyro]

Sylphean slug

[whole holly]

salubra is slug

[terse warren]

Ok well Sylphslugs are a thing but sh

[cedar sandal]

As long as you provide evidence and basis to your theory, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be discussed even if it defies the wiki
Thats the fun of it

[frigid belfry]

the average person in discussion channels thinks widow is the steel city weaver

[stray fog]

Yeah im talking about real life animals

[ember river]

Unn is a donkey

[sinful nimbus]

Zylotol still breathes after his quest iirc I agree he's not dead

[stray fog]

Shes a gorilla

[terse warren]

That's not really important at all to the lore though

[ember river]

I just went to check and yeah, he breathes

So I stand corrected

[whole holly]

thank you

[ember river]

He seems to be completely consumed though

If life, that's a quite miserable one

[whole holly]

i mean yes, i did say he is not living in independent sense, becoming part of hivemind

[unique canopy]

Zylotol's the kind of person to be happy with that kind of life

[whole holly]

pulsating body is technically alive

[terse warren]

I mean eh

[ember river]

Yeah, biologically he's alive, I thought he was just immobile on the floor

[frigid belfry]

disabledlotol

[ember river]

@sinful nimbus what's so bad about the weaver lore page, the pharloom timeline?

It seems kind of messy

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[ember river]

Figured

[stray fog]

Why is the first sinners skull open from the top

[heavy gyro]

In the game files she's called the first weaver

So it's probably gms' first attempts

[stray fog]

Yeah we see the first pharlid that got ascended had an open skull in its weaver form

Assuming that its the first pharlid

[ember river]

That cutscene just shows First Sinner

Outside of the game files we don't know if she was the first weaver or not

The meaning of "first of the first" isn't really known

Could mean First Child of the First Children, or First Penitent of the First Section/Batch/Whatever

And considering she is the First Sinner, I did assume it meant the latter

[stray grove]

Everything should be formed under the understanding that the Weavers are the First Children

Twelfth of the First is probably Widow

First of the First is FS/Atla

The number could denote age it could denote rank that part doesn’t really matter

I mean Widow has a big metal thing attached to her

[ember river]

The first number is the deciding factor

Does it mean first prisoner or first child

[stray grove]

The first number doesn’t matter

[ember river]

Because it points towards X inmate of that group

[stray grove]

We don’t know what the first number denotes it could be age it could be rank it could be whatever

The second number is their generation

[ember river]

Well, the discussion was about FS being the first weaver, I'd say it's quite relevant

[stray grove]

We don’t know whether or not she’s the first weaver

It’s possible

[ember river]

She is mentioned as such in the files

[stray grove]

Not canon

[ember river]

But other than that we don't really have any proof

Yeah that's what I said

Also, if FS is actually Atla, Weaver of Time is a much cooler title than First Sinner

[stray grove]

Not only that but absolution not granted means this sinner isn’t dead unlike every other

Also it would be very strange for there to be an unnamed Weaver who was punished that we just don’t see or hear of ever again

So twelfth of the first is likely Widow

[ember river]

About those entries, I was confused if it meant that absolution would be granted after death, or if it was granted already

I've always believed it was stated when the sentence was set

[stray grove]

Absolution is death

[ember river]

As in "they'll be forgiven once they die" or "They will never be forgiven, not even after their death"

[ember river]

So absolution denied means some sort of deathless imprisonment in this context?

I know FS isn't dead, just asking for the interpretation of its other instances

[stray grove]

FS is dead

She just wasn’t absolved

[ember river]

Ah, yeah, that was my original interpretation

I'm still confused about how these mummified states work

[hexed kindle]

Their soul as in their actual soul is probably preserved through silk

Or atleast their mind

1 of the 2

[stray grove]

Absolution is either granted after death, not granted, or denied

[ember river]

There's also a difference between the "Absolution not granted" of 12th/1st and the "Absolution denied" of FS

I'd assume not granted means they're still alive?

[stray grove]

The penitents who were granted absolution after death where executed and thereafter absolved of their sin

[hexed kindle]

Wth is absolution 😭😭😭

[stray grove]

Forgiveness

[hexed kindle]

Ahhhj

[hexed kindle]

K

[ember river]

I'm not sure about the execution part, I'd expect them to fulfil their sentencing until natural expiry, THEN they'd be considered forgiven

So not only are you tortured for the rest of your life, you won't be reinstated until you die

[stray grove]

It doesn’t really matter

[ember river]

Yeah it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things

Just nitpicks

[stray grove]

The point is absolution can only be achieved following death

FS was left to rot in her cell and wound up dying anyways but she wasn’t absolved

[ember river]

Mhm

[stray grove]

Widow isn’t dead

Well until Hornet kills her

[ember river]

Hence why she'd have her absolution ungranted rather than full on denied, right?

[stray grove]

It means Widow wasn’t absolved as opposed to Atla who was never going to be absolved

[ember river]

I struggle to see how casting would relate to what Widow had done to her but the punishments are pretty vague

[stray grove]

I mean she has a big metal thing on her

[edgy river]

Can't wait for the new area to solve nothing about the current lore and only gives us new questions!

[stray grove]

And x of the first clearly denotes a weaver so it would be very strange for it to refer to some other random weaver we never see or hear of

[edgy river]

Not ironic btw I love this

[stray grove]

Widow is a weaver, she is alive (absolution not granted) and she was punished for an unnamed sin

so it just fits

[ember river]

It makes a lot of sense for her to be Widow, yes

I'm just trying to make light of the implications of the entire text, as little as that matters, that's why I cared about the first number as well

Would she have been the 12th weaver to be made, or the 12th to sin? Etc.

[stray grove]

As I said it could be age/order of creation it could be rank it could be whatever

Anything goes

I don’t think 12th to sin is the most sensible though

Since that would imply there are 10 other weavers who got slabbed

[ember river]

I based that meaning off FS being First of the First, so First Sinner of the First Generation was my original interpretation

Also, is it just commonly accepted that FS is Atla?

[stray grove]

It’s “First of the First Children”
I lean towards age. It would just make sense ™ for Atla the Weaver of Time to be the oldest Weaver since she records history and allat but rank also makes sense given Atla’s Weavenest is both the largest and most important in the sense that they likely came up with the plan to seal GMS she also pioneered rune magic and designed the bells
It could also just be any number of other things it’s not very important in the grand scheme of things

[stray grove]

I mean yeah

FS is almost certainly Atla

[edgy river]

I feel like first sinner being the first weaver makes a lot of sense writing wise. The weavers feel shame and sin. So I always thought it was a recognition of that to call her the "first sinner"

[edgy river]

Like she isn't the First Sinner Necessarily because she was the first person to be locked away. She's the First Sinner because she's the first weaver created. The First entity (that isn't gms) so the first person who could "sin"

[sinful nimbus]

A real First Sinner fan never speaks ill of Atla FS

[ember river]

Her sin was questioning the divinity of other weavers and their supposed divine right to rule though

[stray grove]

Well more undermining said divinity

[edgy river]

Yes

[stray grove]

Atla probably wanted to make that information public

[ember river]

Yep

Makes sense that it was the Weaver of Time out of all of them the one who figured out the past

[stray grove]

I mean the others might’ve known too

They just didn’t want that information being leaked

[ember river]

If they didn't, they most certainly did after that

[stray grove]

They slabbed her so she wouldn’t go and blab about it

[ember river]

I wonder if that was the moment Widow became a Silk zealot or if she always disagreed with their plans

[stray grove]

Whatever her unnamed sin was she clearly pissed them off quite a bit

[edgy river]

I'm not questioning that she is locked away because of apostasy. What I'm saying is the name "First Sinner" doest need to be given by the weavers themselves

[stray grove]

I mean she’s the first sinner because she’s the first person to be imprisoned in the slab

I don’t think it’s that deep

“First person to be found guilty of a sin”

[edgy river]

"Penitent, First of the first*

This doesn't necessarily mean she is the first penitent. It could mean, she is a penintent, and is the "first of the first" (first weaver)

[ember river]

Except she is called the Frist Sinner as well

[stray grove]

First of the first and first sinner refer to different things

[edgy river]

Is she called that out of the ingame menus and UI? Did the weavers call her that?

[stray grove]

She is the first penitent

She is also the first of the first children

[ember river]

Why would the game lie about a name

[edgy river]

It isn't lying. She is the first sinner

[ember river]

First of the First could be her position in the slab or amongst the Weavers

[ember river]

And what do you exactly think being the First Sinner in the Prison For Sinners means?

[stray grove]

FS is definitely the first penitent lol

That’s what… first sinner means

[ember river]

The slab timeline doesn't really make sense any other way

Or her name

[edgy river]

Ok. I'll be more clear because im explaining it badly

FS is definitely the first penintent and probably the first weaver, coming from "first of the first".

Is is unquestionable.

The name "First Sinner" however, can have a double meaning. Superficially representing how she is the first person to commit a crime against citadel, but also imply she's the first weaver, the first creature who even could "sin". It could symbolize how while maintaining the front for the kingdom, the weavers consider themselves sinners, and she's the first one to be created

[ember river]

The weavers most definetely don't consider themselves sinners

They set up the entire religion for their own benefit and so they could rule as gods

[twilit pecan]

I think that is partly true but the main use of the religion is to keep GMS asleep

[ember river]

The overall purpose is to keep themselves in charge, that's why they put her to sleep anyways

[mighty parcel]

Bell Beast's journal entry describes it as a "Huge, hardbone bug..."
Does this imply that it's related to the Hardbone Hoppers (the deer guys found in parts of Deep Docks and Far Fields)

[frail marten]

seems more related to wormway groms if anything

[mighty parcel]

Makes sense, especially given their place in the journal

[fresh badger]

Iirc beastflies also have 'hardbone masks'

Like all the marrowlands natives just have hardbone plating stuff

[lament remnant]

We know that The Knight wandered for a long time between ascending from The Abyss to descending back into Hallownest, do you think they ever visited Pharloom?

[stray fog]

Thats possible

But no way to know if that's true

[frosty beacon]

is ghost old enough to have witnessed the haunting?

[craggy smelt]

well, it was going on while they were alive

but they were down in the Abyss apparently

[frosty beacon]

wow

ghost must've sucked at abyss climb

[craggy smelt]

made it to the very top but choked at the last bit

[frosty beacon]

how do you choke those, there's 17 different platforms below you, smh my head ghost

so wait

am i stupid or is dlc just gonna be pharloom bay and that's it

[stray fog]

Some plasmium stuff too

[craggy smelt]

pharloom bay could turn out to be pretty extensive

the bay, the lifeblood spire, some underwater areas...

[frosty beacon]

oh right lifeblood spire

[craggy smelt]

the closest thing to a new area HK got was Godhome, not exactly your typical exploration-focused area

so SoS could be pretty significant

[frosty beacon]

yeah it's gonna be exciting seeing what looks to be a much bigger dlc

[frosty beacon]

oh sorry
plasmium spire 🤓

[craggy smelt]

I'm curious as to what its place in the narrative is
a side-story you can go do anytime, or something post Act 3?
and what's the hook to get us to go there? a follow-up to Zylotol's quests?

[lethal burrow]

so wait if the godseekers went to pharloom before even the nameless village existed, what does that say about the timeline?

[stray fog]

It might be related to the plasmium outbreak in act 3

[frosty beacon]

they were gods, if you were a god, you'd want to explore your planet as much as you want

[frosty beacon]

bro please don't have us do infection 2: electric boogaloo that would be so boring

[stray fog]

Infection 3 actually

[craggy smelt]

who says the Godseekers went to pharloom?

[frosty beacon]

plasmified wormways are fine as a mild area

i don't want it spreading everywhere

[craggy smelt]

I do

[stray fog]

People are saying that this architecture looks like the pantheon architecture

I don't buy it personally

[craggy smelt]

yeah, me neither

this is some 'everything black is Void' stuff

[frosty beacon]

this looks like weaver architecture imo

[craggy smelt]

everything onion is Godseeker

[frosty beacon]

like a weaver cage

[stray fog]

Gilded citadel architecture

Weaver architecture is bare stone

[lethal burrow]

The locations look nearly identical

Even down to specific rocks

[craggy smelt]

now that's more like it

[frosty beacon]

where is that hk screenshot

[stray fog]

Godtuner memory

[frosty beacon]

...

[lethal burrow]

https://youtu.be/wETPiXZyOTU?si=t1Xt_c6mK8_Kv3Pp

[frosty beacon]

am i stupid?

[frosty beacon]

https://tenor.com/view/huh-cat-gif-26460616

how

[craggy smelt]

Godseekers missed the land of gods and powers and a Pale Being right below they dumb asses

[craggy smelt]

1% chance of finding it any time you enter Godhome via dream nailing the Godseeker in Junk Pit

[frosty beacon]

that's crazy

i must be super unlucky then because i entered them at least 50 times

[lethal burrow]

maybe they were there before grandmother silk even appeared? Who knows how long they were travelling for, or alternatively who knows how long after the first game of the second one takes place...

[craggy smelt]

I think what it says about the timeline is fuck this timeline

[lethal burrow]

I guess all this says is that either the god seeker are way more ancient than we thought or silk song, takes place way longer after the first game than we thought, or both.

[stray fog]

I wonder what this similarity means

[lethal burrow]

Probably that they're the same location geographically

[stray fog]

Nameless town = land of storms sounds a bit weird

Idk

I need to think about it more

[lethal burrow]

that isn't the land of storms memory.

[frosty beacon]

wait so that means nameless village was a god seeker village?

[lethal burrow]

it's just the memory of them creating the God tuner

[stray fog]

True

[frosty beacon]

man what

[craggy smelt]

the Godtuner Memory takes place out in the wastes, after they left the Land of Storms

[lethal burrow]

yeah.

The land of storms is a different super hard to get memory
https://youtu.be/ke0o71ZXg1c?si=Kx8_g_tsX-O6tlfV

[frosty beacon]

also would it not be crazy to say that maybe we go to the land of storms in the sk dlc

since that's the only other place we have seen natural lightning in the series

[lethal burrow]

OMG god seeker dlc foreshadow the delicate flower AND literally showed us a part of silksong how much foreshadowing is there? im half expecting the hollow Knight to be hiding behind hidden wall

[frosty beacon]

but actually

it's that mask shard meme but for lore

[craggy smelt]

zylotol's master gonna be a rogue godseeker
using the storm and plasmium to frankenstein all the bosses back to life
its a bossrush DLC after all

[stray fog]

I might become a believer of this godtuner - nameless town theory

[frosty beacon]

i just like my lore wrapped up in a nice little bow

i don't like it when this kind of shit is so tangled up

[stray fog]

I love tangling shit uo

Lore wise

[craggy smelt]

Holy shit

[lethal burrow]

what if the reason there's life blood in God home is because one of the God seekers got taken over by it

[frosty beacon]

no

[dry trail]

Aren't the weavers supposed to be female only? Asking coz I remembered that the cages in the cradle refer to them with he/him nouns so I'm confused

[stray fog]

Do they?

[craggy smelt]

Hornet breaks open the surface momento
godtuner inside
Hornet: "It's time."
Goes to Barloom Bay

[lethal burrow]

pure Weavers yes.

Descendants can presumably be either way but who knows I don't remember any being referred to with male pronouns

[dry trail]

Hang on let me check

[frosty beacon]

this would be SO fucking crazy but i don't think it's happening

tc has made it clear that they don't like gatekeeping content behind a skill challenge

[craggy smelt]

...have they?

[frosty beacon]

why else can you fight god tamer in godhome without having to do colo 3

[lethal burrow]

Perhaps we should inspect the judges specifically looking like God seekers a little bit

[stray fog]

I think the surface memento shape resembled the nameless town silk memory guy's head shape

[dry trail]

Ok it's not him but their instead. Still don't get the need for gender neutral if they're exclusively shown to be female

[lethal burrow]

Now that's nonsense because you need to beat all pantheons with all bindings to get land of storms

💀

[frosty beacon]

that's optional lore content, i'm talking about gameplay content, like an entire pantheon

they can hide lore behind whatever they want

why else does PoP exist

[stray fog]

It would be insane if this bay dlc turned out to be a godseeker dlc

[limpid summit]

I feel like the most they’ll do is another weathered mask journal entry

[dry trail]

Anyone taking a guess as to how u open the entrance to pharloom bay? I think it's going to be the blocked path right above weavenest murglin since acmi map had sketches shown there

[mint stratus]

Wish wall or npc gives a key?

Or maybe a new song!

[dry trail]

Key for what door? It's all rubble now

If there was any entrance

[stray fog]

They can just add a door in the update

[quartz salmon]

Or the rubble becomes breakable

[dry trail]

I'll do u one better: "hide an entire area behind a hidden wall" trick

[mint stratus]

Ooo like the giant door in the opening of hollow knight

[stray fog]

And make it steel soul exclusive

[craggy smelt]

an excuse to return to Bilewater, hooray...!

[frosty beacon]

"oh btw we added more bloatroaches in the tall rooms, you're welcome :3"

[sonic solar]

what if the lore reason silksong is way harder than hollow knight is because hornet just sucks compared to the knight

[mint stratus]

Popular theory is that since she’s only half god she’s not as durable

[sonic solar]

also the knight is able to beat her twice in hollow knight

[lethal burrow]

OK, but seriously why did the judges look like God seekers?

[sonic solar]

just because they wear gold

[lethal burrow]

She's more agile, but less durable

[lethal burrow]

No, their heads are also shaped similarly

[sly cloak]

maybe the god seekers came from pharloom

[sonic solar]

didnt they come from the land of thunder?

[lethal burrow]

That doesn't check out

[lethal burrow]

The land of storms, yeah

we know they travelled above the land that is now called pharloom at some point in time, but I don't think it's where they're from

[sonic solar]

i feel like the god seekers and the judges being similar is like trobio and the grimm troupe being similar

[whole holly]

no no no...

[lethal burrow]

ehh

it's a slightly stronger connection than that come on than that

[sonic solar]

no im saying its wrong like how trobio and the grimm troupe being connected is wrong

[whole holly]

i mean land of storms might be pharloom's edges

[lethal burrow]

ig

There's not really a way of knowing though

[mint stratus]

Could simply be that masks shaped like that share the objective of attuning? Not to the same level obviously, but it’d align with the judges religious fervor

[steel slate]

Yello

[sonic solar]

the dlc trailer had lightning but i dont think thats conclusive

[whole holly]

well, i guess you are right, but DLC either will confirm or deny it

[sonic solar]

doesnt that mean the dlc will take place on the surface?

because of the lightning

[steel slate]

One thing I’m really curious about is the possibility of a lifeblood crest

[whole holly]

gotta use this again

[stray fog]

Yeah I think pharloom bay is on the surface

[steel slate]

The lightning could have a different source

[sonic solar]

this could just mean that the god seekers went above pharloom

[stray fog]

Maybe we bind this corpse for a crest

[whole holly]

uhm, it might be crest of alchemist that may give us synergy with Lifeblood

[whole holly]

yeah, surface

[steel slate]

This seems likely

[whole holly]

i hope so, i don't think they are plasmified though , if they double Plasmium Effects maybe we can get Poison Pouch Plasmium Masks

[sonic solar]

why couldnt they sense grandmother silk tho?

[frosty beacon]

duh, this is obviously a crest corpse, it's just unclear what the theming would be

[stray fog]

Would this make the lifeblood spire the only non-chapel crest location?

[stray fog]

I believe that this is zylotol's master

[steel slate]

I imagine functionally a lifeblood crest would passively give Hornet increased masks and grant her a bind that has temporary passive/staggered healing

[whole holly]

maybe they were too controlling , maybe they were looking for big prize in wider selection of hallownest gods

[frosty beacon]

oh damn, didn't notice

[whole holly]

i don't think it will be strictly lifeblood related

[frosty beacon]

a lifeblood crest would go hard

[sonic solar]

im pretty sure one part of the trailer had fishing rods, so maybe we will fish?

[steel slate]

It doesn’t necessarily have to just be lifeblood but this is the sort of crest I imagine we could get

[whole holly]

Soul Imprint likely wouldn't have much lifeblood, it is soul imprint after all, not lifeblood imprint

[frosty beacon]

those are port anchors, used for keeping ships attached to ports

[whole holly]

it could be alchemist crest, if that is what you meant

[sonic solar]

these?

[whole holly]

unless hornets gets ability to bind Lifeblood Imprints in DLC

[sonic solar]

i hope the dlc will have uninfected parts of bilewater

[steel slate]

Sounds likely

[stray fog]

If my theory that crests represent certain communities (reaper, shaman, etc.) is correct, then this must be the alchemist crest

4 up arrow reactions 🔥

Lets go

[steel slate]

If Steel City gives us a crest I imagine it would be called Assassin Crest which would align with this nicely as well

[sonic solar]

i feel like crests are more like charms, where they are a physical imprint of someones fighting style and abilities

the only exception is the architect crest which i think is artificial

[stray fog]

My main reason for that theory is that the needolin dialogue of all the chapels is about remembering that Chapel's community and way of living

[sonic solar]

i guess your right

do yall think the architects are robots?

if they are then who made the architects?

maybe the architects are like cyborgs

[stray fog]

The Weavers I think

They're smart enough to have made robots

[sonic solar]

they dont have the weaver style architecture

[stray fog]

True

[sonic solar]

i think the architects are bugs that turned themselves into cyborgs

[stray fog]

The conductors performed surgery so ig they're smart too

[sonic solar]

because the architects are the only robots to be able to have a conversation thats not pre-recorded

[stray fog]

What about the second Sentinel

[sonic solar]

oh i forgot about her

[lean temple]

They don't need to copy the Weaver style

And the Weavers seem the type to not want their style to be replicated

[sonic solar]

why wouldnt the weavers make robots like that to fight for them? because the architects seem imune to grandmother silk

[whole holly]

plus architecture also changes with time in general

[stray fog]

I forgot whether steampunk architecture was conductor stuff or weaver stuff
Because the architects look steampunk, not gilded

[lean temple]

They run on silk and soul so she could still have an effect. And she might just be too powerful to fight. The Weavers themselves were very fierce in combat and even they failed to find a combative solution to use against her

[sonic solar]

what about just robots to guard the weavers, or the weavernests?

[lean temple]

Servitors ig

And the sentinels

[sonic solar]

the sentinels would probably have attacked the weavers like they attack hornet

[lean temple]

Not sure about that

[sonic solar]

isnt there a robot that does fight and is clearly made by the weavers in mount fay?

[lean temple]

Even still Weavers were not weak

[whole holly]

sad about Pinstress Order but i guess hornet joins it right?

[lean temple]

Servitor boran?

[sonic solar]

yeah

[lean temple]

Damn is there no Hallowscript bot for silksong?

[whole holly]

does Hornet join order after she receives blue tool? Seamstress suggests that

[stray fog]

Not yet

. !wiki will work

[lean temple]

I think so, like TK becomes a Nailmaster

[stray fog]

A pinstress order fight in the boss rush would be so cool

[lethal burrow]

you low-key found out a big discovery

[lean temple]

Servitor Boran
"Broken construct built by Weavers past, able to fire a focused beam of silklight to carve halls and chambers through ice and bone.

The servitor has been heavily damaged by time and the elements. Its actions have grown erratic. It seems no longer able to discern friend from foe."

[whole holly]

oh, thanks, but i wish fourth shaman and third pinstress hadn't died, why did they move to bilewater again?

[lean temple]

It was not combative initially, but went haywire

[lethal burrow]

well, that's exactly what it does mean.

But what that means is unclear

[sonic solar]

i think the shaman got kidnapped

[lean temple]

Seeker tried to ally with the Stilkin and Pinstress 3 was hiding from the Citadel

[stray fog]

The pinstress order might have originated in bilewater

Their fighting style is like the stilkin

[whole holly]

i am not first one , some youtube video pointed it out, i can't seem to find it though, released before DLC

[lethal burrow]

crest that gives you triple health but you can't bind or something idk.

Just like joni's blessing

[sonic solar]

the pinstress could have been hiding there

[lethal burrow]

But like better but because two damage

[whole holly]

Pinstress should have chosen better place like Sharka's Mother/master

[stray fog]

What would its bind ability be 🤔

[sonic solar]

if they were trying to hide, it would make sense to be in the more hostile place

[whole holly]

i mean yes, clearly they didn't survive, did they die natural death though

[sonic solar]

bind 4 health, but instead of it being all at once, you slowly regenerate it after the bind ends

[stray fog]

Nice

[whole holly]

creative

[stray fog]

I probably won't use that tbh

Lol

[whole holly]

me neither, i want something like druid's crest with Druid's Eyes effect as bind ability

but something more Shaman Like, shaman-crest has no bind ability

[cedar skiff]

this might be the worst bind in the game dont let team cherry see this

[lean temple]

What's the right picture from?

[stray fog]

The nameless town

[whole holly]

i am pretty use it is nameless town, other is tuner memory

[sonic solar]

lol

[lean temple]

I see

[stray fog]

I am now a believer of the godtuner theory

[lethal burrow]

it's the trade-off to the crest giving you a bunch more health than normal

[stray fog]

When I bind, Im in a situation where I need health asap

[whole holly]

Abyss Creature does have unique releationship with godseeker's although i don't think Abyss Creature is Lifeblood Higher being, just Ancient Bug who consumed Lifeblood, Void Affected beings seem to have ability to consume lifeblood likely without significant limits

[lethal burrow]

Maybe you should be a bit more forward thinking

[stray fog]

Get better at the game? Hell nah!

[graceful grail]

Is sea of sorrow gonna have God‘s of thunder and lightning? ⚡️

[whole holly]

Godseeker does not comment on it, but Salt Stricken Wates being land of storms is really weird, maybe false gods were ancient beings who consumed Lifeblood and appeared strong as well to gain worship, Weaver's did it when they received powers from GMS

[sonic solar]

arent they already dead?

[stray fog]

Aren't the gods dead in hk?

[graceful grail]

Maybe they’re descendants?

[whole holly]

maybe Lifeblood resurrected those dead false gods

[lethal burrow]

Unlikely

[sonic solar]

i mean, we dont actually know, they could have abandoned them. But we do find 2 really big corpses that might be the gods

[graceful grail]

There is a lot of thunder in the trailer and lightning.

Aren’t we only told that the gods abandoned God seeker

[stray fog]

I think the implication of those background corpses is likely to be that they're the dead gods

[lethal burrow]

They're dead as hell in the background

[graceful grail]

They could be petrified

Things that are dead typically aren’t standing up

[whole holly]

The Godseeker: "Hallownest. This kingdom is blessed with true Gods. True! All around, the corpses of pretender Gods. But! Not in Hallownest..."

[sonic solar]

this probably means they were looking for pale beings

[lethal burrow]

The God seeker is characterized by coping

"oh yeah sure our gods aren't even that good anyway... not like I ever liked them or anything!"

[whole holly]

Godseeker could be referring to Bugs from Ancient Civilization era, if Abyss Creature, Gods of Thunder and Gods of Rain who were fake

[craggy smelt]

To the Godseekers, a 'god' is just like anything that exists in a way that they notice

[lethal burrow]

I'm willing to bet that's probably a later development in their minds born of desperation

they'll take anything by this point lmao

[whole holly]

nope, they were looking for higher beings

[graceful grail]

This is not imply that hollonest is close to the land of storms

[craggy smelt]

they ponder if White Lady could be 'one of Them', beings too rare for them to expect to encounter
that probably refers to pale beings

[sonic solar]

pale beings are higher beings

[lethal burrow]

Maybe they're talking about roots

[lethal burrow]

lace

[whole holly]

you specified pale beings

[lean temple]

Could be, although they already called her "pale mother" initially

[stray fog]

Them seeking pale gods is more likely than seeking roots

[sonic solar]

lace is silk

[lethal burrow]

i'm not getting into definitions of what constitutes a higher being or a pale being but I think the two can exist independent of each other categorization wise was

[lethal burrow]

radiance isn't pale as far as we know and that's the God of gods they ultimately wanted

[whole holly]

it doesn't have to it could include all false gods that made bugs worship them, like Gods of thunder and rain and weavers

[sonic solar]

well my interpratation of the god seekers dialog was they were looking for pale higher beings

[stray fog]

Yeah but a bonus pale god wouldn't hurt

[lethal burrow]

pale beings are like shiny Pokémon, and higher beings are like legendary Pokémon.

That's my analogy

A higher pale being is like a shiny legendary

[sonic solar]

i think they would rather have the pale king, just that hes dead

[lethal burrow]

Take it or leave it

[whole holly]

Pale Being as term is refereed to as Higher Beings that have Pale light/color, but not all bugs that are described pale are higher beings, Hornet is described as such because of her lineage

when is lace referred to as pale being?

[sonic solar]

hornet is half pale being

[whole holly]

i know, did you read my comment to end?

[lethal burrow]

lace is also described as pale, and the pale stag is a pale stag, regardless of if it ever existed it is a thing that is manifested within the space of a dream.
So it's arguable whether a higher being was manifested through the entering and conjuring of that dream space

personally, there's enough pale sort of things to make me think that not every pale being is higher

[sonic solar]

tbh i dont know why i said that

[stray fog]

Everblooms might also be pale

The first light

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, but they're not alive

[sonic solar]

i think that them being refered to as pale is just refering to their physical color

[whole holly]

Pale Lurker, Pale Lake, Palestag, Pale Rosary String aren't strictly related to pale beings

[stray fog]

Tc wouldn't do that

[lethal burrow]

Do you have an underlying logic for differentiating which instances are just descriptive in which are categorical?

[whole holly]

plants are alive, they just have no godly resonance

[sonic solar]

pale beings are described as glowing with pale light

thats something that lace never does

[stray fog]

They know that "pale" is our sleeper agent trigger word

[stray fog]

I think he meant "not sentient"

[whole holly]

even though Everbloom clearly has pale light and Godseeker doesn't see pale resonance

[lethal burrow]

I mean they sort of are.

pale lurker is called that because she's obsessed with the pale king who is a pale being.

pale rosary string is white in colour,

Paleness seems to be related to soul first and foremost, I guess

[whole holly]

i think that well

[lean temple]

Yes, but the non HB Pale Beings we know are related to pale higher beings, Hornet and Lace being kids of two pale HBs.
As for Palestag who is a bit more vague, it says "stag touched pale" which could mean her paleness isn't inherent, but gained through some other means.

[sonic solar]

that could jsut be because its a plant

[stray fog]

"pale" rosary string might be an adjective to describe that its the best rosary string

Like "godlike" being a rarity tier

[whole holly]

Worshiper got name because of Pale being, who has also higher being, all pale beings who are refereed to as such are higher beings, but not everything and everyone described as pale is higher being or pale being

[lean temple]

Or yknow, pale just means white in certain cases.

Like Hornet didn't know who Lace was and still called her pale, likely because she's just white as a ghost

[whole holly]

how does that prevent Godly resonance, White Lady is root, Nyleth is Plant(i know she isn't higher being, still she is sentient and alive)

[lethal burrow]

maybe hornet has the sight

[stray fog]

Probably not

[sonic solar]

it doesnt, it could jsut be that its harder to detect because it isnt moving around

[lean temple]

From whom? And why wouldn't she just look at her reflection if she has it

[stray fog]

We would see her using her sight at some point if she had it

[whole holly]

i mean maybe Pale Light and Godly Resonance are separate things, i think resonance is related to Essence and Everbloom's Light is separate from essence

[stray fog]

I think the godseekers just wanted pale higher beings
They didn't care if some flower was pale

Like you could show them pale ore and they wouldn't care about its paleness

[lethal burrow]

Do you see a mirror in the kingdom anywhere?

[sonic solar]

i think pale ore isnt pure paleness

[lean temple]

The plenty of water and shiny metals

[lethal burrow]

I think she uses it whenever she looks around

[sonic solar]

the black egg in the abyss

[whole holly]

makes sense if they didn't care about paleness only HB status power

[sonic solar]

are we talking about hollownest or pharloom

[stray fog]

Pharloom

[sonic solar]

oo

[sonic solar]

trobio's mirror

[lean temple]

And I doubt all of Pharloom doesn't have a single damn normal mirror

[lean temple]

Forgot about that one lmao

[stray fog]

Is there a vanity in bretta's hut
If so, then mirrors exist in this world

[sonic solar]

your forgetting about the literal mirror you can get from trobio

[stray fog]

True

Overall, we never see hornet using the sight, and we never get any indication that she has the sight

[sonic solar]

i saw a theory that all of the deaths are just hornet and the knight using foresight, but i dont think thats true

[stray fog]

Were talking about the mask maker sight

I think

[sonic solar]

oh

[lean temple]

If Hornet could see the future she wouldn't have let the Shamans cause a fucking void apocalypse

Idk why that theory seems so popular

[plain gazelle]

it also ignores, yknow, the giant rosary filled cocoon she leaves behind

[stray fog]

Because its cool
Even then, I don't believe in it

[sonic solar]

i mean, the pale king couldnt see that the hollow knight wasnt pure

so i dont think that the foresight is that powerful

[stray fog]

Thats much further into the future
Hornet only needed to look 20 minutes ahead to not activate the trap

[sonic solar]

hornets also half pale being

so it would be half as good

maybe they can only see vague events, and not the exact details

hornet also accepted the gray root parasite

and got captured in the first place

and got captured by the slab

[whole holly]

we know foresight doesn't make person fully knowing of future, since pk didn't think he would fail with hk

[plain gazelle]

we don't know about a single feat or instance of actually using foresight at all, just two offhanded mentions that PK has some kind of prescience. so the bounds of it are totally undefined but it's clearly not that powerful considering he failed pretty hard

[whole holly]

but i think Pale King would have succeed if Hollow Knight Egg was moved in Abyss, since it was active properties

[lean temple]

If she can't look 20 minutes to see the Void apocalypse foresight is useless

[sonic solar]

can you explain this a bit more?

[whole holly]

it was useless for pk too

[lethal burrow]

People like making things worse

[lethal burrow]

yeah, but he still did something about it. And acknowledged it through actions if not words.

Hornet does not do any of that

[whole holly]

i think Nature of Abyss, like Void presence would counter Infection

[whole holly]

like what, how did he use foresight?

[sonic solar]

the pale king probably saw no way to stop the infection, so he jsut tried to slow it down. The big dead mushroom in the wastes says "what good is it to see a future you cant avoid?" so he probably knew it was gonna happen

[lethal burrow]

I don't know by closing his eyes and focussing or whatever it doesn't really matter

[sonic solar]

i think it has something to do with soul

[lethal burrow]

I think he was desperately railing against fate

[whole holly]

i mean how do we know we used Foresight, because Hornet lacks it too

[lethal burrow]

it's implied to be a trait of worms, not pale beans.

And we know there's non-pale worms

[lethal burrow]

We don't use it

[random harbor]

Dream Nail: Fungal Wastes - Giant Mushroom - "Pale Wyrm... What good to foresee a demise unavoidable?"

Pale Wyrm... What good to foresee a demise unavoidable?

@blue14113 used /dream-nail area: Fungal Wastes name: Giant Mushroom - "Pale Wyrm... What good to foresee a demise unavoidable?"

[lean temple]

"To foresee a demise" which means he knew he would fail

[sonic solar]

if it does need soul, then it could just need too much soul to be viable for hornet

[lethal burrow]

Many Kings seek to undo their fates

it's a classic

[whole holly]

i guess it is interesting

[ancient stirrup]

What is the Weavernest Muglin Bilewater ""saltwater"" text description?

Its not on the wiki

[sonic solar]

maybe the king saw the dream no more ending was the only was to stop it, so he was just thinking very far ahead

[lethal burrow]

Maybe, but I doubt it

[edgy nebula]

“Sister, spider, sat between salt and stone.” Iirc

[lethal burrow]

his kingdom is hardly around, which is was his main goal

[sonic solar]

we dont know if after the knight defeated the radience it gets rebuilt

[lean temple]

He definitely could've made that his plan A instead of the prison kid corpse

[sonic solar]

the prison kid corpse is part of it

[lethal burrow]

it can't get rebuilt. It's a corpse by this point anything that comes after will just be another civilization on the pile, not a resurrection of whatever hallownest was

[sonic solar]

its either that or nothing

[lethal burrow]

that kingdom is dead and it's king with it.
If another kingdom comes to lay upon those grounds, it can hardly be called the same

[lean temple]

"All things must accept an end."

That's the whole point

[sonic solar]

i mean, hornet is still alive and so is the white lady

[lean temple]

Every kingdom will fall eventually. That's the nature of things

[sonic solar]

we can still dream

[lethal burrow]

vespa said something to that effect

[whole holly]

it can have new settlements, since AC built stuff around hallownest and we see architecture, and Pale King did same, maybe new kingdom can rise

[stray fog]

Hallownest is a lost cause

[sonic solar]

ac?

[stray fog]

I don't think its gonna be rebuilt any time soon

[lean temple]

She said that verbatim

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, but that's not what the pale king wanted

It makes no sense for him to have been gunning for dream no more

[foggy fractal]

To rail against nature is folly. All things must accept an end. 🗣️

[whole holly]

Ancient Civilization

[sonic solar]

it could have been that was the only way he saw to defeat the radience

so to him it was either that or an infected wasteland

[lethal burrow]

air-conditioning
Assassin's Creed
Armoured core
ancient civilization

[sonic solar]

thank you!

[stray fog]

Alternating current

[lethal burrow]

I think that's stupid

[whole holly]

weirdly enough they considered Radiance Natural Cause and pale king artificial ?

[sonic solar]

honestly yeah, im grasping at straws

[whole holly]

yeah

[lethal burrow]

perhaps they see fate as natural, and not the radiance specifically

[whole holly]

maybe AC was against radiance too, considering Radiance calls void ancient enemy, Pale King was relatively newcomer so it can't refer to Knight's wyrm nature

[lean temple]

Nature is that a kingdom will fall. No civilization shall last eternal

[stray fog]

Thats a stupid take tbh

"just give up and die bro"

[lethal burrow]

"immortality is bad" is just coping from a mortal person that's going to die smh

[whole holly]

i mean wasn't Radiance cause of Kingdom's Fall, i don't think fate is entirely separate from her actions

[lethal burrow]

I'm not denying

[spark valve]

that's not what it's saying but whatever

[whole holly]

i think they are exaggerating

[sonic solar]

do yall think theres some other connected civilizations? and pharloom and hollownest are like north america in the 1300s

[whole holly]

lands of serene is settled land maybe it could be kingdom

[stray fog]

It is implying that fighting nature is pointless

But why shouldn't one fight for survival

[spark valve]

accepting that you are mortal doesn't mean not looking both ways before you cross the street

[lethal burrow]

Some things are not binary

[stray fog]

The cradle has mentions of other kingdoms

[sonic solar]

yeah

[stray fog]

True

[whole holly]

we know grimm goes to dying kingdoms, there must be dozen for there to be entire industry/ritual around that

[sonic solar]

hollow knight could be post-apocolypse

[stray fog]

I get it now

You're right

[lethal burrow]

The Weaver's proceeded to escape from their God by running away to another kingdom that ended up falling to another much worse and more powerful God,

It's very funny

[stray fog]

Tc said that this series is about exploring kingdoms in ruin

[sonic solar]

we need a hollow knight game that isnt in a ruined kingdom

like maybe shakra

[whole holly]

they should have ran straight to wastes to form civillisation, or maybe even abyss

[mint stratus]

That’s half the fun imo

[sonic solar]

i guess your right

[stray fog]

The fact that people were attracted to pharloom and hallownest means that their lives in their original kingdoms weren't better

[sonic solar]

the godseekers only left because their gods died

are you refering to cornifer?

[stray fog]

Why though
They didn't know that they would end up in another infection situation

[lean temple]

"Kingdoms" is a bit much for the "Sandsea Wastes" and "Blackbarrens"

[stray fog]

The people in howling cliffs

[lean temple]

Just biomes of wasteland

[whole holly]

i mean Higher beings in general always look for certain control, that is universal to Higher Beings it seems

[lean temple]

And the City of Steel is more of a city-state than a "kingdom" tho idk how precise HK's terminology is

[stray fog]

The map to other kingdoms we find in sk implies that Weavers went to other kingdoms

[lean temple]

Away from Pharloom doesn't mean other kingdoms

[stray fog]

I think any settlement would be a kingdom here

[lean temple]

Unless I'm misremembering

[stray fog]

I thought it said "other kingdoms"
My bad

[spark valve]

the wastes are kind of not a great place to set up shop, they're relatively barren, not a lot of food or resources, etc

[lean temple]

"A rune depicting paths away from Pharloom."

[stray fog]

Still, they wouldn't suspect another infection
Maybe just a king / queen higher being

[whole holly]

GMS didn't infect them though? did she?

[sonic solar]

the pk did a pretty good job of being in control

[lethal burrow]

does anybody have any of those images from before the game released with the Hollow Knight, but with a red cloak and it's called "the silk song"

[stray fog]

True

[whole holly]

i mean so did radiance, lol

[sonic solar]

??

[whole holly]

she controlled bugs, though infection

[sonic solar]

thats not good

[stray grove]

PK wasn’t really about control

He didn’t really interfere with the lives of his populace very much and seems to have valued their autonomy

[lethal burrow]

Who was the better ruler, radiance or grandmother silk?

[whole holly]

good job usually means good at controll, not nature of control being good

[stray fog]

The radiance didn't mistreat the moths

[whole holly]

Ruler? GMS presumably

[edgy nebula]

Radiance

[stray grove]

I mean we don’t know that

[sonic solar]

we dont know enough about how she treated the moths

[stray grove]

Describing Radiance as a ruler is a bit strange

[lethal burrow]

They threw a hissy fit when they decided to change up their lightbulb

[whole holly]

yeah

[spark valve]

doesn't seem like she did

[stray fog]

She would die if they forgot her

[lean temple]

They're both terrible

[stray grove]

Anyway they’re about as bad as each other, Radiance caused more damage but if GMS was capable of causing even more damage she would have presumably done the same

[whole holly]

GMS loves Lace at least, Radiance should have created sarcastic Character made entirely from Essence/Dreams, not moth this time

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, but she didn't have to take it out on everyone else

Everything would've been solved if the moths didn't want to be monotheistic

😔

[stray fog]

True

Most higher beings are just bad people

[lethal burrow]

unn is cool

[stray fog]

Except 3

[lethal burrow]

How many do we even know about?

[stray grove]

That isn’t the point really

GMS certainly wasn’t as malicious as Radiance if that’s the question being asked

[whole holly]

correct term is Monolatry, i think

[stray grove]

The point isn’t that HBs are inherently evil it’s that they centralize power and that’s a bad thing

[whole holly]

acknowledging existence of other gods but worshiping one is Monolatry

[stray fog]

Unn is the one I'm most confident about
The other 2 are the nightmare heart and the shade lord

[stray grove]

Radiance was evil but it makes no sense to attribute Hallownest’s fall to her alone

Ultimately that was still a consequence of PK centralizing power

(Also the entire point is that it was inevitable)

[whole holly]

Nightmare Heart and Shade Lord are presumably destructive, and not entirely good character-wise

[spark valve]

oh boy we doin gp dialogue?

[spark valve]

neither of them are

[whole holly]

neither of them are destructive?

[stray grove]

It’s the “all HBs are evil” schtick yeah

[stray fog]

The nightmare heart doesn't do anything bad

Except mind controlling nymm ig

[stray grove]

Nymm isn’t mind controlled

[spark valve]

neither of them are destructive

[silk dirge]

i think im just gonna be here now to murder anyone who suggests a connection between the lab and godhome

[whole holly]

Godhome was destroyed

[spark valve]

no it wasn't

[stray grove]

Brumm still has autonomy lmao he literally quits

[spark valve]

doing the important work

[stray grove]

Also he probably volunteered to work for NMH in the first place

[whole holly]

Void doesn't have positive effects on godseeker for sure

[silk dirge]

yup

[stray grove]

Nothing implies NMH is rounding up random guys and mind controlling them for no reason

[spark valve]

she's elated by it

[stray fog]

Partially mind controlled

I think there's a dialogue that says that some bugs can resist mask based kind control to some extent

[silk dirge]

the thing at the center is literally a door as we can see in acmi maps