sk-lore

[harsh mauve]

Why do npcs get hypnotized when playing the needolin

[frozen hornet]

Wait, I meant more of The Citadel and not the entire Pharloom

[limpid summit]

We can assume that non haunted bugs just sort of decide to sing

For whatever reason

[sinful nimbus]

The humble Mottled Skarr

[limpid summit]

He decided to sing

Mottled Skarr actually sucks

NDD doesn’t need to be DND

Why does it not translate dialects like Snitchbug

But mottled skarr thinks completely plainly

[unique canopy]

Needolin dialogue on the surface kinda sorta implies that Weaver song might be normally enticing to normal bugs even without the control of the Haunting

[frosty gate]

There's no magic in talking pretty

[stray fog]

Bugs with half a brain cell wouldn't care about charisma

Like the mosscreeps

They sing along, right?

[frosty gate]

You assume bugs have half the braincell

Fr tho, I don't think it implies that Weavers used magic, I feel like they just told them they would have a nice life if they follow them

[stray fog]

True

Oh you're talking about the nameless town people

I completely misunderstood the topic

[stray fog]

Ignore this

[frigid belfry]

game is called silk song

[half zenith]

They have a Widow canon character. They should make a Recluse canon character that the guards keep mistaking every other spider for because Recluse is allegedly that scary

“Is that a recluse” no it isn’t; that’s a jumping spider. Come on now you know what a recluse looks like

But like in silksong

[sinful nimbus]

Tuff

Although all spiders in Silksong are the same species, weavers. So Recluse would just have to be the name of one particularly dangerous one

[blissful harbor]

not all spiders are weavers

[whole holly]

not all spiders are weavers though, there was supposed to be one non-weaver spider

[blissful harbor]

there are things like drapemites, devouts, midwife

[whole holly]

yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Drapemites are... mites
Devouts and Midwife are not in Silksong

Its true there are other spiders in-universe though but imo it'd be kinda weird if there was another spider species in Pharloom

[whole holly]

Pharlids are Spiders

[sinful nimbus]

Well yeah but those are basically weavers which I already mentioned

[whole holly]

there is significant difference between them

i doubt Drapemites are mites, they have no common things with greymoor mites

Cloth-covered crawler with sharpened forelimbs. Lives and breeds in dark places. is Journal entry of Drapemites

[sinful nimbus]

Read their name very slowly

[whole holly]

i did, Crawbugs look like crows and less like bugs as well, name and irl biology don't define Hollow Knight Universe lore

[sinful nimbus]

You can also infer that craws are crow analogues through their name

[whole holly]

it is too late for me

to argue in here

[sinful nimbus]

Alr c ya

[whole holly]

tbh names and biology doesn't matter as much as hunter's journal, they are most likely mites yes, plus mites are arachnids, c ya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mite

[sonic ember]

Guys I just had this thought…
||If a third game was potentially released, I have this thought that it could be about Lifeblood/Plasmanium, and it being sort of the “antagonizing force.” It was somewhat explored in Silksong over how it has very negative effects that it causes when abused. It’s strangely a lot like Radiance’s infection in a way? 🧐||

||Though we’re unsure if a third game is going to be even released, I would be interested if they went in this direction. Maybe this could even be a future DLC for Silksong where they expand more upon this.||

[muted lantern]

mites are arachnids as previously said, plus large drapemites are 8 legged if you look at the majority of their sprites (though the hunters journal entry shows one of their attack sprites that doesnt show all their legs.)

though the term mite is used loosly in game, as other mites don't seem to be arachnids, like the mites in greymoor

Hornets even called a mite once

twice actually

and compared to a mite a third time

[sinful nimbus]

Note how I never claimed Weavers were the only arachnids in Silksong

[muted lantern]

Considering pharlids are only ever called arachnids, I imagine weavers are the only true spider in pharloom, becoming spiders when they were uplifted and given silk. As producing silk is a prerequisite to be a spider, and pharlids seem to lack it. I imagine any arachnid in pharloom could be theoretically uplifted to weaver.

[muted lantern]

yes but you were saying drapmites are mites in response to someone calling them arachnids, as if those were mutually exclusive

actually i misread

my bad

you were responding to them being called spiders

but my point still stands that pharlids arent really spiders either, lacking silk and all.

[sinful nimbus]

Sure

In any case my original point was that I think a hypothetical recluse character would be best as a single Weaver character

[muted lantern]

are there any silk producing bugs that arent connected to gms? i don't recall in the first game, id have to assume so due to deepnest right?

[sinful nimbus]

They make silk but its not imbued with soul

iirc Seamstress implies its an ability not exclusive to the weavers though

[muted lantern]

I wonder if things that already produce silk can even be uplifted into weavers.

We don't really have a big sample size ig, only knowing of pharlids.

The only example we have of weaver that might not be a pharlid originally is herrah, and even thats a bit of a mixed bag evidence wise.

but as for a recluse character I imagine they would be a similar kinda thing to widow, a pharlid weaver with another type of spiders name.

[lethal bane]

The silk is song

[crystal vapor]

Since we know that the skarr speak a different language, does this mean that there is canonically a shared language between most bugs, or is Hornet multilingual across Pharloom somehow

My current assumption is that Pharlooms default language is “Weaver”

And that Hornet was taught this back in Deepnest, and she’s bilingual in this and whatever the common language of Hallownest is

I think given the influence of the Weavers in Pharloom I presume most npcs speak this language or a variation of it. Irrespective of their attitude towards the Weavers, a language can be a hard thing to shake or change after being implemented. Plenty of folks with bad sentiments towards British colonialism will speak English just because it’s practical

I presume Weaver holds a similar position in Pharloom, but I guess never got to the skarr outside of Karmelita, who is a leader and thus bilingualism would be very useful for diplomacy

[muted lantern]

It could be that since both lands were established by pale beings they have a shared language?

[wintry barn]

that would mean karm would be speaking a language different from the pale beings’ and her own species

the first would be ruled out, for just about any of the “old hearts of pharloom”

the crust species’ descriptions go “karak gor,” the shellwood species go “phalia” and that stuff

[frigid belfry]

where?

[wintry barn]

the same would apply to the skarrs

[sinful nimbus]

Nowhere I misremembered

[frigid belfry]

hornet heavily implies there is some shared language, but she is also fluent with numerous others. e.g. the pilgrims would all speak one common dialect, maybe the mushrooms another, perhaps the citadel a slightly different dialect, etc

[wintry barn]

something along the lines of seamstress saying that the kingdom’s haunting comes from a living source

right before hornet leaves after getting driftcloak

if i recall correctly

[frigid belfry]

that living source is gms

silk production is exclusive to gms/weavers

[wintry barn]

the message you replied to only mentioned “not exclusive to weavers”

so i thought gms was an unconsidered factor

[crystal vapor]

I’m trying to understand how she would know about any of the Pharoom languages besides a Weaver language

I get the Hallownest languages if maybe the bees or mushrooms etc speak different languages

But how would she come to know multiple Pharloom languages other than a Weaver one?

And considering how influential the weavers were, and the fact we know she doesn’t understand the ants, probably less influenced by the weavers

That was my train of thought

[frigid belfry]

it makes sense linguistically for there to be some semi-universal common bug language, especially since all pilgrims arent native to pharloom

[crystal vapor]

Wait really?

[frigid belfry]

yeah they were lulled from outside pharloom by the citadel

[crystal vapor]

That means the Weavers like had international reach with their religion?

Hmmm

[frigid belfry]

pharloom knows about hallownest, city of steel and pharloom have relations

[crystal vapor]

Interesting

Maybe this common bug language was established at a time when there wasn’t such a bleak desert separating civilizations

That maybe most surface dwellers ended up adopting a shared language and then some bugs or other creatures just weren’t touched cuz they were too isolated

Imagining a Hollow Knight world without the wastes and regular international connection is so odd to me

Would be very compelling to get some more lore on that world

[unique canopy]

They were from outside the Citadel, but where is it stated that they were outside Pharloom completely?

[frigid belfry]

chapel maid notes hornet is not from this land and immediately assumes shes a pilgrim, weaver lore tablets say the citadel was meant to lull and entrance from far and wide, and finally, with the sheer amount of pilgrims we see, there is no reasonable place we see in pharloom where they would come from (also numerous pilgrim dialogue imply they are travellers)

even ignoring the chapel maids background, she wouldnt lie about pilgrims not being native

could this be an exp33 ref lmao: ...For those who come after...

we know tc is aware of it, and the timeline matches up

this is from n-dialogue from any weaver spire

[unique canopy]

Where exactly Pharloom's borders are considered to end is ambiguous. Garmond's village is explicitly depopulated from the Haunting according to him, while Shakra and by extension her tribe are stated by Hornet to be "from Pharloom's edge" yet it's only her and her mentor (neither of whom have any sign of Haunting) who are there. So the indication to me was that what we see in the game is still mostly the inner region of Pharloom, with another ring of territory outside the bounds of the game's world that's still considered part of it.

[frigid belfry]

even with this, the environment infers that the outer regions of pharloom are much different, the edge of pharloom on both sides look either like the howling cliffs or like the sandsea wastes, less of pharloom and more of outskirts

[visual glacier]

<@&283547423706447872>

[crystal vapor]

Neither Shakra nor Garamond look like they would come from the cut content areas but that could be an explanation from a meta perspective

[visual glacier]

Shakra is from pharlooms edge

[crystal vapor]

What is Shakra supposed to be bug wise, anything specific?

[visual glacier]

Don’t think so

They relied a lot less on real bugs for designs in silksong

[muted lantern]

people say wasp but I doubt it, she has this long weird dragonfly tail. The closest possible comparison I've found is the orange antlion from australia. With the possibility of lion village coming, I guess we might get an answer to that if it turns out to be shakras village.

[crystal vapor]

Idk if they did better in Hollow Knight honestly there were some pretty nondescript ones there too

[crystal vapor]

Mmm lion village

Presumably not actually filled with lions

[muted lantern]

but if you look under these wings the antlion has that similar long orange tail

[rain gate]

tc are self-admitted shitty entomologists

they did stuff that looked Cool not neccessarily Accurate

[visual glacier]

Remember that her master and herself are the same species

[crystal vapor]

I don’t usually care because it allows for better character design a lot of the time

But it’s an easy way to start with potential questions

[muted lantern]

thats not explicitly true is it? the master is explicitly not her birth mother

[visual glacier]

It’s very likely

[crystal vapor]

Like if Shakra was a specific type of bug maybe I could pinpoint a thematically fitting location

But I have no idea where she would like belong

[muted lantern]

They arent blood related, though.

[visual glacier]

How many interracial tribes are there in hk?

[crystal vapor]

I feel like those ring weapons might be well suited to a really dense forest where they could bounce off all over the place

[muted lantern]

I suppose.

Still, i feel like orange antilions are the closest we have.

though, in some art shakras orangish parts look more like metal armor?

[frigid belfry]

what evidence supports the 5 great knights being extremely powerful?

[visual glacier]

Nah that’s her she’ll

[crystal vapor]

We know they are powerful warriors and have cartography as a cultural practice

[rain gate]

her entire body is shiny in that art, thats not rally anything to go off of imo

[muted lantern]

I mean we fight one and hes one of the harder bosses, plus they served under the pale king, a god, so i imagine he chose powerful warriors, plus isnt dryya surrounded by corpses?

[crystal vapor]

The wastes or close by could fit

[visual glacier]

“These markers I have modelled after the sheen of my own shell. Perhaps you will think of me when you use them.”

[crystal vapor]

I guess blasted steps would make the most sense although presumably this means her tribe is a more recent newcomer here

[rain gate]

plus ze'mer is also pretty powerful what with her everbloom

[crystal vapor]

Because it used to be part of coral gorge

[visual glacier]

She also wields a massive nail

[muted lantern]

her shell looks so much more orange in game, but if thats whats it's supposed to look like then maybe not orange antlion, is there any bugs that have a similar color and a dragonfly tail?

Honestly tho i still hope lion village is shakras home

[crystal vapor]

Could be dope

[mossy jay]

The White Defender fight, for one

[crystal vapor]

Mmm good evidence

Ant lions would be a good way for lion village to make sense

[visual glacier]

I don’t think shakra is based off of any bug in particular

[muted lantern]

likely, but these things are fun to speculate about

[crystal vapor]

I like to see team cherrys but inspiration as from what a casual person would know about bugs

They seem to be decently faithful to the concept of ants and bees

Even worms from the perspective that wyrms creating civilizations under the ground is like earthworms aerating the soils

A lot of bugs aerate soils but earthworms are notable for this I suppose

[craggy smelt]

I saw a theory that Shakra was based on a parasitic wasp, given the long thin abdomen
such wasps often prey on spiders, so...

watch out, Hornet

[frosty beacon]

shawkra is even hotter

[limpid summit]

Ogrim packs shit hard enough to serve as tunnels while also swimming through it effortlessly and shaping it into giant balls of destruction within a second

And he isn't even the one whose nickname is "mighty"

[edgy nebula]

they served under pk

theres no reason to think they wouldnt be the best of the best

[frigid belfry]

thanks i was checking if i missed anything for a query

[honest sun]

What are gms legs? Scissor blades?

Whats the pointy end

[visual glacier]

Leg

Singular probably

[muted lantern]

Interestingly enough they seem to be a prosthetic, as they are launched away instead of turning to silk like the rest of her body in the weaver queen ending.

[honest sun]

What about the halo gms has, does it have any further lore

Apart from being in the sylphsong abilitie

[visual glacier]

Tuning fork in cut content I think

[lean temple]

Signifies her divinity I guess. Idk of another purpose

[wise sand]

she has some wasp vibes imo but i dont think shes anything specific

her master who i assume is the same species looks nothing like her

[wise sand]

it looks cool

[visual glacier]

Not nothing like her

She’s just wider

[wise sand]

im talking body shape wise

the overall features are the same ofc

[cedar vale]

Hello chat!

[muted lantern]

Shes just big boned

Honestly though they look rather similar features wise, i imagine the shape changes with age.

shes explicitly very old

as in her cause of death was stated to be old age

by shakra

[wise sand]

yeah im just saying they vary too much to be based off one real insect taxa

[stray fog]

They've gotta be the same species because she's shakra's mother

[muted lantern]

not biologically, Shakra makes it clear shes adopted.

[stray fog]

Oh

[muted lantern]

"The fiercest of my tribe, here she lies. I called her master, true, but she was mother just as much, more by far than the bug who bore me."

Here's the quote, she doesnt think highly of her birth mother it seems

[lethal burrow]

hi

[viscid ridge]

She reminds me a lot of dragonflies, and we see dragonflies in game and in Hk with similar features as her, so my personal interpretation is that she is a sort of dragonfly.

[wise sand]

Do we know that spirit is a dragonfly

Also, she lacks wings

So does her master

[viscid ridge]

I think the guy who made it said its a dragonfly

[lethal burrow]

Where is that heard?

[viscid ridge]

I knew you would bring that up, but you have to keep in mind that a lot of bugs that have wings in real life doesn't necessarily have them in hollow knight.

We even have a massive example such as Vespa, the literal queen of the bees, not having wings herself

[viscid ridge]

Im not sure so don't take my word on it

[wise sand]

True ig

She just doesn't really have dragonfly energy imo beside having a long abdomen/tail thing

There's other insects with long abdomens

[viscid ridge]

But a wasp is more likely?

[wise sand]

I don't think she's fully a wasp either

[viscid ridge]

Idk the specific tail design makes me think team cherry associates it with a dragonfly like bug, unless there is another bug thay i missed that has this tail design?

[wise sand]

I do think it's more likely that team cherry would make a wasp inspired thing(especially since theyve already did with another hymenopteran) without wings than they would an odonate

[viscid ridge]

Cause to be honest, all connections we can make about what type of bug she is is very surface level with not a lot of proof behind them

[wise sand]

Yeah

[viscid ridge]

Idk man i think it would have been clear if she was supposed to be a wasp. And i also think Hornet would habe commented on that

[wise sand]

I mean yeah, I don't think she's a wasp inspired just think she has some wasp inspired elements

Shes mostly just a cobble of random stuff like most characters

[viscid ridge]

Like?

[lethal burrow]

Maybe she's a shocker thing

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i think maybe shes just a generic type of bug, not really supposed to be anything specific

[wise sand]

Thin waist,long abdomen, coloration maybe,general attitude

[viscid ridge]

I dont want to be mean lmao but by that definition iselda would be a wasp 😅

[wise sand]

Nah she has different energy

Also she has that trunk like cornifer

[viscid ridge]

I think considering vespa named Hornet, Hornet, either wasps bees and hornets are different names for the same bee-like bugs or they are different bugs that are incredibly similar.

I honestly think if we ever see a hornet in hollow knight, it would just look like the bees but without the fluff

[wise sand]

I think she's called vespa because tc thinks it sounds cool tbh

I think she's still a bee just a weird looking one

The bees in the hive are kinda implied to be her children

[viscid ridge]

Yea, thats why im saying that in the hollow knight world, its all the same, theres not a clear distinction like in real life

[wise sand]

Maybe for eusocial stuff

We only really have one example

[wise sand]

I've been talking about solitary wasps this whole time if it wasn't clear

There's definitely some resemblance i feel

[viscid ridge]

Honestly i like the theory that someone else mentioned here that shakra is an antlion, and her village is hopefully the lion backer village that hasn't been added yet

[viscid ridge]

I would agree with you, but i think if she was any sort of wasp she would've had a stinger

[wise sand]

Yeah that why i think shes inspired by a wasp but not a wasp

Or atleast she could be inspired by a wasp

[wise sand]

Maybe

[lethal burrow]

omg shakra dlc? The stocks are higher.

[hidden crater]

Silksong sales sky rocket by 2000%

[rotund pulsar]

I have a question. Did the seals from the cage in the beginning take away hornet's abilities?

[hidden crater]

No the seals just made her stupid and made her forget everything

[rotund pulsar]

Because I'm confused as to why she would have to re learn things like thread storm, clawline and silk spear when she already had them in the first game (tho silk spear looks a lot more advanced than the first one)

[rotund pulsar]

Hmmm. I guess adding that with the concussion could have been probable reason but seeing as she remembers every other thing perfectly makes this doubtful

[rotund pulsar]

Maybe a hybrid of wasp and dragon fly? Bugs can mate with other entirely different bugs in this game

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i think shakra looks a lot like a dragonfly, but honestly the antlion theory makes a lot more sense to me. It explains her dragonfly characteristics aswell as what the village she comes from actually is

[rotund pulsar]

She look more like a wasp to me tho. The yellow and black on her doesn't look like clothes

But then again not having wings really eliminates both choices

[viscid ridge]

Not really, a lot of bugs that are supposed to have wings dont have them in hk

[rotund pulsar]

I forgot about this

I was thinking too realistically

[wise sand]

I wouldn't say a lot tbh

There's a few

There's more things that have wings but shouldn't

[viscid ridge]

Yeah not a lot, but there are a few that don't

[viscid ridge]

Just goes t show not everything in hk is biologically accurate

[wise sand]

Yeah

Kinda unfortunate, theres some interesting things they could've went into if hk was more based on actual bugs

[lethal burrow]

Like what?

[wise sand]

The main thing i was thinking about when I said that was stuff relating to life-cycles

There's not many things in hk with concrete life cycles and I think more of them could add some interesting lore and influence the story to an extent

Also if more characters were based on actual bugs it would make for interesting interactions and it could give some uniqueness to some characters

I swear like 90% of the characters and enemies in silksong are made up vaguely buggy creatures

[heavy gyro]

That's basically hk as well

[wise sand]

Could've been cool to see the skarr farm aphids

[wise sand]

Yeah

Its definitely more prominent in silksong tho I feel

[heavy gyro]

Hmm yeah like the crawbugs

[visual glacier]

They do infest the basement with nectar

The nectar is aphid nectar

[wise sand]

Yeah

[hidden crater]

We have come for your nectar

[viscid ridge]

There is the beastmaster

Like the whole beast chapel seems to have been for food

[wise sand]

Cut

[heavy gyro]

I doubt the beast chapel was for food since it's a place of worship

[visual glacier]

Look up the definition of chapel for me rq

[viscid ridge]

I still think the massive room for capturing beasts is relevant, its not specifically tied to the beastmaster

[viscid ridge]

Why?

[hidden crater]

chapel
/ˈtʃapl/
noun

1. a small building or room used for Christian worship in a school, prison, hospital, or large private house.
   "a service in the chapel"

[visual glacier]

Doesn’t have to be Christian depending on the dictionary you use

[hidden crater]

Thats the result I got

[wise sand]

Perhaps

[viscid ridge]

The specific definition for chapel isn't relevant to the in game chapels. The only one off the top of my head is the snail chapel and maybe bonegrave that would fit the definition

[wise sand]

Reaper?

[visual glacier]

Praising the old farmers

For feeding pharloom

[viscid ridge]

What do they worship there? Candles and scissors?

[wise sand]

They all seem to be in reverence to something

[visual glacier]

The reapers

[visual glacier]

Yeah the bountiful fields of greymoor

[viscid ridge]

Idk it feels more like a tomb of a reaper to me, not like a literal chapel

[wise sand]

Also i still think actually seeing aphids in silksong wouldve been cool

[heavy gyro]

The chapel of the witch is probably the outlier but is it even called a chapel officially

[viscid ridge]

Like every chappel is like a tomb, with exception to the chapel of the witch

[visual glacier]

Chapels are used in remembrance except witch

[hidden crater]

Chapel of the witch congratulates you for becoming a mother for 1 root baby

[visual glacier]

All of them have “remember” in the dreamnail dialogue but witch has “forget”

[hidden crater]

Genuinely what the hell happens to the rest of the citadel after twisted child ending

[visual glacier]

Sorry “forgotten”

[viscid ridge]

I think maybe the roots only effects the cradle, i think the citidel is fine

Whatever comes out of the roots however...

[visual glacier]

What about the new greyroot tho? Will they destroy the citadel?

[wise sand]

Maybe, we don't really know

[heavy gyro]

The twisted ending actually seems to be the most favorable ending for pharloom if greyroot isn't evil

[hidden crater]

"Phantom why the fuck is our mom made out of roots now"

[viscid ridge]

Jokes on her, i killed her 🤣

[hidden crater]

WRONG, THE PORTAL TO THE ABYSS IS OPENING

[hidden crater]

Just wait till gms pulls this move out

[keen frost]

I'm jus wondering why is there a crow community in a world with only bugs?

[visual glacier]

Because why not

[heavy gyro]

They are bugs that look like crows

[hidden crater]

Crows are cool

[keen frost]

that answer cured my cancer

[visual glacier]

Hk has never followed irl biology

[hidden crater]

Silksong has everything but bugs

[wise sand]

They're also bugs

[viscid ridge]

Not crows, probably like mosquitos or something

[wise sand]

Generic bug thingy but crow shaped

[severe escarp]

why did hornet kill the first sinner

[visual glacier]

She didn’t

It’s a memory

[severe escarp]

oh

[keen frost]

is hornet racist?

[stray fog]

Yes

"the flies should lowkey die out as a race"

[keen frost]

Crazy racism levels

she likes flees cuz they fluffy and white

[robust wagon]

They're beige 😭

[crystal vapor]

I feel like this has to be some sort of Weaver dna thing

Hornet is sympathetic to creatures that want to kill her

And she seems to understand the plight of Pharloom may not result in the best looking, smelling, acting creatures

I don’t imagine the bugs of the underworks smell all that great either

So to me this really stands out as being a huge personality shift

[wise sand]

I think she's just mad that she was put in a cage and her loot got stolen

[crystal vapor]

Maybe it is an oversight because this isn’t necessary

[wise sand]

Also her cloak smells of fly after the thing

[crystal vapor]

Like I didn’t get that scene cuz just that good

[wise sand]

True

Idk

[crystal vapor]

But Silksong is usually very good with these details

[wise sand]

Yeah

[crystal vapor]

These flies were presumably weirdly immensely hated by the Weavers

Idk how this hate could be baked into the dna of a Weaver

They are spiders, so maybe them being flies is at least supposed to thematically connect them

Maybe there’s some sort of predatory instinct as these used to be the main prey of Weavers?

Maybe even when they were Pharlids

And this instinct was somehow never removed?

[stray fog]

Hold on you're cooking

It makes sense now

Spiders eat flies

🔥

[crystal vapor]

Ye

[wise sand]

Hornet shows no desire to eat them

Just disgust

[crystal vapor]

That is a weird thing

Perhaps that’s how it manifested as they became Weavers? But idk what a Weavers main diet is

[wise sand]

Also rejecting her instincts is part of her character

[crystal vapor]

Ye

It just stands out so much to me considering they have one of the biggest reasons to be so degenerate

[stray fog]

Because she isn't a pharlid

[crystal vapor]

Being locked up as offspring with no ability to change your life at all

[wise sand]

PLEASE STOP

[stray fog]

Its a primal emotion to hate the flies

[wise sand]

Wait

Overreaction nvm

[crystal vapor]

They have like one of the worst fates in the game

And still no sympathy from Hornet?

It just stands out

[wise sand]

Yeah

[stray fog]

Especially since every fly in the slab has a journal entry written in the tone of disgust

Not just one or two

[wise sand]

She also doesn't kill the baby one that shows up after broodmother

[crystal vapor]

Yeah

[stray fog]

A baby probably instills some empathy in hornet

Even if she hates the flies, she wouldn't kill their newborn

[wise sand]

"The less these gruesome bugs breed, the better" then proceeds to not kill one

[crystal vapor]

Maybe this could indicate a dlc where there’s a new generation of flies that are different

[wise sand]

???

[crystal vapor]

Perhaps

[wise sand]

She kills like 30 right before this

During the boss fight

[crystal vapor]

Yeah true those little guys are probs babies

[stray fog]

True

Hornet is weird

[crystal vapor]

It’s either an oversight or it means something really unique

[wise sand]

She never mentions the smell of anything in bilewater I don't think

The muckroaches are probably closest she has to a fly level reaction out of anything else in the game tho

[crystal vapor]

And they are essentially animals

These flies are civilized to some extent

Like they are sentient enough to use tools

[wise sand]

They're fully sapient

[stray fog]

She doesn't display any hate towards the broodling at all

[visual glacier]

Because she respects princesses or something

[wise sand]

Idk she doesnt seem to care that much for lace until maybe act 3

[visual glacier]

Cause she didn’t know she was a princess

[stray fog]

She knew that lace was gms's child

Probably

[wise sand]

Also i don't really think the broodling is quite a princesses

[wise sand]

She knew in the cradle fight

[visual glacier]

And she respected her there

[stray fog]

Ig that is right before act 3 starts

[visual glacier]

Broodling can’t threaten hornet, lace can

[wise sand]

More because of the silk thing

Like i don't she hated lace but she doesnt seem to care for her either

Up until that point

[stray fog]

I still think the broodling thing is because she's a baby

The reason she killed the other babies is because she was in combat ig

Or maybe she had a change of heart between the time of the bossfight and meeting the broodling

[visual glacier]

Post-genocide clarity

[wise sand]

Idk "The less these gruesome bugs breed, the better" to "I am merely a visitor here, little one. Have you made this place home, then?"

Is a crazy switch up

[crystal vapor]

Maybe something will be revealed about this in dlc

[visual glacier]

Doubt it

[wise sand]

Shes kills other defenseless children too but ig those are optional

[visual glacier]

Broodling is the fluke hermit of silksong

[stray fog]

Also, broodling isn't haunted, right?

[wise sand]

No

[stray fog]

Maybe that's the difference

[wise sand]

Are the squirms haunted?

[visual glacier]

I think so

Not positive

[wise sand]

I don't think it matter than much tho, it's not really their fault and hornet knows that

They don't even attack

[visual glacier]

Yeah they are groomed into becoming judges

Essentially

[wise sand]

Lowkey there's a bunch of weird things that you can do/hornet says in silksong that are kinda iffy

Similar situation to the 4th heart

[stray fog]

Killing karmelita for fun

"I needed the gameplay footage bro"

[crystal vapor]

Killing Karmelita feels more like euthanasia

Mercy kill

And Karmelita gets to die swinging as a warrior

[wise sand]

This is the only weird part imo

The actual fight is kinda self defense

And it's kinda implied that she wins the first time

[long warren]

ok wait

hold on, what are a higher beings

and wtf is a pale being?

[stray fog]

Beings who exist above all others

According to tc

Basically gods (not the godseeker definition of gods though)

[long warren]

ok so white lady, pale king, and gms are pale beings and higher beings

basically

but unn isnt white

and stuff like shade lord and the other guy isnt white

uh the grimm one

i forgot the name

[stray fog]

Yes, there are non-pale higher beings

[long warren]

ok but what does pale being mean other than color?

[stray fog]

There's no definitive answer that we know of

[long warren]

alr

[stray fog]

They're powerful ig

[long warren]

i guess theyre the strongest non-void

ok no but i fucking love both of them, just finished hk 1 earlier, and i love the hooks that were set up in hk that skong finished, and ideas in skong developed further in hk

ex. the bit of lore about the moth tribe turning their back on radiance being explored further in weavers vs gms,

and lace's want for approval from gms being mirrored in hk's focus on

and like the vessel stuff

yes

mhm

aha!

of course

[crystal vapor]

I thought that GMS making the Weavers from Pharlids was an expansion on what happened with the Pale King and especially the Radiance but someone here said otherwise

I guess there’s no proof that the exact same thing went down

[long warren]

ohh yeah

i forgot abt that

pale king giving a mind to the hallownests bugs

[crystal vapor]

But like I figured giving sentience now meant to evolve from a lesser form

[crystal vapor]

Pale King is a little unique in that his followers do not follow his form

Rather he changed his form to better suit them

Presumably because most of Hallownests bugs looked vaguely beetle like

[long warren]

i guess hes more of a colonizer as opposed to a creator (gms, radiance, etc)

[crystal vapor]

Yeah

[long warren]

more humanoid

[crystal vapor]

I took it as him potentially learning from previous Wyrm civilizations

[long warren]

i really wanna learn about more wyrms

[crystal vapor]

That maybe did just uplift worms

[long warren]

like the blackwyrm stuff

[crystal vapor]

Same

[long warren]

also theres that one name from the cradle

ill look for it

smth like quarter weaver, captured from the black___

wait

now the real question

is gms' name really grand mother silk

or is it just silk, and its hornet being respectful

[crystal vapor]

Presumably just silk

Maybe these beings take names based on their powers

Radiance is just a grand light

[stray fog]

I theorized that uplifting bugs was a pale higher being characteristic, but the white lady never does that so idk

[crystal vapor]

Unns followers don’t look like her

So maybe

[stray fog]

Shes never referred to by her name, so maybe she doesn't have one

[stray fog]

"mother" "monarch" "pale monarch"

Never a name

[crystal vapor]

It seems like this uplifting of creatures to specifically look like themselves is referencing “God creating humans in his image”

[crystal vapor]

Maybe this shows us how lonely pale beings are

That they don’t even need names usually

Because there aren’t others to call them one

And that’s why they want followers so much

[stray fog]

Does the white lady have a name?

[crystal vapor]

Unn seems to be an actual name

[stray fog]

Or the pale king

[stray fog]

Yes

[long warren]

and that pale king being a pale being acting as a colonizer taking over uncivilized minds, and changing their minds to suit his image

i think they dont have names bc theiy nature to conquer

they seemingly dont like other beings mostly excluding the king and lady

[crystal vapor]

It seemed to me like the Pale King was a bit better than a colonizer

[long warren]

and the caretaker in songclave talking about hornet's nature as a monarch rihgt?

[long warren]

that msg was mostly a joke, pale king was def better than leaving them in the barren wastes

ok wait

[crystal vapor]

The Pale King could’ve came in with an army of uplifted sandcarvers or something

[long warren]

is there a mantis higher being

[crystal vapor]

We don’t know

[stray fog]

We never see one

[crystal vapor]

But someone here said no and that’s why bugs don’t need higher beings to be sentient

[long warren]

i feel like there isnt one, because they probably wouldnt like the mantis lords

[crystal vapor]

Maybe theirs died out

But they still kept their sentience, they just forgot their higher being

It does say Mantis civilization is super old

[long warren]

actually that does make sense

[crystal vapor]

So there was time to forget

[long warren]

esp we see that their sentience isnt directly tied to pale king

[stray fog]

They must have left a trace atleast

[long warren]

such as in elderbug and quirrel

[crystal vapor]

Maybe the location we find Mantis village isn’t their original home even

[long warren]

mantis tribe >pale king's arrival right

[crystal vapor]

They could have moved around

[long warren]

in terms of time

[crystal vapor]

Ye

[long warren]

ok wait waht are the deepnest things

[crystal vapor]

Like the centipedes?

[long warren]

are those infected weavers? the ones that can crawl on the walls in the air

nah

[stray fog]

Yeah

[crystal vapor]

Yes they are weavers

[stray fog]

Infected weaverlings

[long warren]

like baby weavers?

[crystal vapor]

Yeah

Which is a bit confusing

Considering child birth being very painful

[long warren]

ok wait after each ending, is the infected removed

[crystal vapor]

For them

[long warren]

like in the sealed siblings and the base ending

[crystal vapor]

I don’t think so

[long warren]

we just stop more from escaping

[stray fog]

After 3 of them, yes, but some infected bugs were long dead, and they were re animated corpses

[crystal vapor]

Unless maybe you think the Hollow Knight is truly Hollow

[long warren]

?

[crystal vapor]

But the Knoght doesn’t seem to be truly Hollow

Like able to contain the Radiance

Yeah the protag

[long warren]

i dont think so too esp bc of the fact that them dreamnailing themselves is canon

[crystal vapor]

Even as a void being it has a will

[long warren]

and more vessels have been curious about nosk's copy of them

i wonder, how do you think the haunting/gms found hornet

and where doy ou think hornet was? still protecting hallownest?

i guess they ignored the pure (?) but infected weavers

[stray fog]

Gms says that hornet is "sensed strong with silk" when she commands bugs to capture her
So that means she can sense weaver descendants

[long warren]

gms has dialogue?

[stray fog]

This dialogue is from a choral commandment

Which tells bugs to go capture hornet

That must be gms speaking through the citadel bugs

[long warren]

mmm

[stray fog]

Using her hivemind

[long warren]

i guess the infected weavers cant use silk bc obviously

ok wait 2 more questions/dialogue

wtf is herrah??
are there male weavers? id assume not, and so what are the weavers in deepnest made of

i heard someone say in a video that herah was one of those furry guys

ill pull a picture

[stray fog]

Herrah is a pure weaver, but she looks very different from other Weavers
The reason for this is debated

[long warren]

perhaps bc of so much birth

[stray fog]

There are no male weavers
Weavers can only reproduce by mating with other species, and even this is very difficult
This is why the existence of so many weaverlings in hallownest is also debated

[long warren]

so much mmpgghhh to raise more for deepenst and with the pale king?

idk why ivfe never heard anyone say this

[stray fog]

That is one of the theories

[long warren]

someone said the left is what herrah is and like no???

[long warren]

esp with the abdomen being really fat

[stray fog]

That's another popular explanation
People theorize that normal Weavers were made from pharlids, but herrah was made from the spider whose image you sent. This is why she looks different

The horns of that spider and herrag match too

[long warren]

or at least its confirmed

i am wstupid

read nickname

[stray fog]

Lmao

[lethal burrow]

only silk hearts

[wise sand]

Ive heard atleast 5 people say this

Widow had her normal weaver mask forcibly removed

[wise sand]

Shes quite a bit skinnier during the red memory

[wise sand]

Not a spider

Mites(maybe, im not fully convinced that they're even arachnids ngl)

[fresh badger]

Herrah being a mite is stupid bc Hornet herself suggests the link to her pharlid heritage

Something in their assault reminds me of my own skill, though their talents are born purely of instinct. My technique is formed from hard training.

And Pharlid attacks are clearly weird like they have an insane attack range for such a small body

Mites just leap

[fervent sigil]

Mind flayer from stranger things VS Radiance anyone?

[fervent sigil]

fatty

[wise sand]

Yeah

[wise sand]

Also her segmentation(line down the middle + each segment is bulging out a bit) is a bit different to the drapemites(no bulging with no line down the middle and more consistent sizing of each segment)

[stray fog]

Time to switch to the birth theory

[stray fog]

Bugs have resisted the infection, but I doubt that anyone could resist the mindflayer

[fervent sigil]

hollow knight and will no?

they did need help tho

[stray fog]

Will didn't exactly resist it

[fervent sigil]

i havent watched s5 (dont spoiler)

[stray fog]

By "resist", I mean being completely free of the infection

[fervent sigil]

the knight killed the shit

while will just got most of it out

but idk if that makes the radiance weaker than the mind flayer

[lethal burrow]

bingo

[stray fog]

How did you compare widow and herrah's size

Everything would be larger in skong

Because the knight is short

[robust wagon]

4th image dude

[stray fog]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-star-dumb-empty-head-moron-spongebob-gif-11976325420190756370

Me

[fervent sigil]

so herrah and widow are special fleas

[robust wagon]

Sure

[fervent sigil]

i know widow ripped her mask off and was made to serve GMS

but whats up with herrah

[echo moon]

her pregnancy made her overweight

[wise sand]

Insane size difference

[long warren]

i wonder, is the mask she wears because shes a dreamer, with her true face under?

[wise sand]

Its because it looks cool(idk)

[long warren]

her mask was ripped off?

[fervent sigil]

it wasnt?

[frigid belfry]

eh its unlikely

[wise sand]

It might be due to hornet not quite remembering what her body looked like idk

[fervent sigil]

mossbag did my mind dirty

nvm

[wise sand]

Its in the journal

[long warren]

its literally the same color, and same fluff

oh

[wise sand]

The fabric comes from the same place probably idk

[long warren]

well i mean the mask being ripped off doesnt entirely disprove my theoryy

[fervent sigil]

may i ask what is your theory

[long warren]

.

what 63/63 and 52/52?

i am dumb and newgen

[wise sand]

Achievements

Hmm

[long warren]

ty

[wise sand]

I wonder

Do the drapemites have two eyes?

[long warren]

they have two eye holes

[wise sand]

Yeah

[long warren]

but pharlids have 4 eyes, unlike the 6 weavers do

[wise sand]

The eye holes on the drapemites are alot larger(fits with the eyes of the mites in greymoor and the drapeflies being pretty large)

And widow's are slanted

[long warren]

https://tenor.com/view/hold-on-wait-a-minute-concerned-upset-listen-to-me-gif-15659122

but fluff

[wise sand]

It could potentially be due to the mites having worse craftmenship because theyre wild animals tho

[long warren]

wdym craftsmanship

in making?

[wise sand]

I assume they made the holes

Unless the fabrics they pick just perfectly happen to have two holes everytime which would be weird

Hornet is void

[wise sand]

I take that last bit back partially purely because of how weird the mites are

Wtf

more proof to my theory that silksong has no mites and everything with mite in the name has it because of vibes

[ionic void]

bro what the hell is this path from bench to ||last judge||

[wise sand]

Lightwork(also wrong channel)

[ionic void]

oh yeah mb lol

[ionic void]

its kinda far

[celest marsh]

the path made me genuinely lose my mind dawg i have a MASSIVE skill issue 😭

[ionic basalt]

Wait till you see g***l

[ionic void]

its actually not a big path,and the boss is easy i was just being dumb

[ionic basalt]

Tbh last judge feels like a skill check xd

[ionic void]

nah the first phase is light work,and u just gotta be a lil cautius on the 2nd,i can do 1st in like 30 secs

[ionic basalt]

I mean the hard part is phase 2 😭

[ionic void]

it really isnt tho

[ionic basalt]

Eh depends

Ibh i need to react faster to last judge spin attack

Like sly great slash

[celest marsh]

daaaaaaaaaaash

[ionic basalt]

Its very fast

Also this isnt lore 😭 bye

[stray fog]

Are you mossbag's alt

https://tenor.com/view/james-doakes-james-doakes-sus-face-james-doakes-suspicious-james-doakes-reaction-erik-king-gif-14404252364057104628

[wise sand]

Hornet is fayforn which is void which is widow i think

Also gms is pale king's sister

[fervent sigil]

im sorry but why are we making characters related just by looks

[pearl thunder]

schizophrenic delusions

[fervent sigil]

i could literally make one that "proves" zote is a higher being

oh no

[ionic basalt]

Spawn of grayroot

[fervent sigil]

"I'll kill a thousand more...Will that be enough, father?" Zote's dream nail dialogue in colo

who is father?

[pearl thunder]

probably his dad, i'd imagine

[bleak ridge]

Father of the flame, Zote was a burning bug confirmed

[fervent sigil]

greyroot. as anonymous cat says hes a spawn of greyroot, and its theorized that zote went to shellwood. so this means greyroot is a male and he IS a spawn of greyroot

[fervent sigil]

this is so fucking stupid.

[fresh badger]

Why do you assume shellwood pond is the only source of shellwood

Hallownest was damn loaded with the stuff (cp, ab)

[fervent sigil]

who said i assumed, its only a theory

[fresh badger]

Not even a theory, its a meme

[rotund pulsar]

Pale beings are just as their name implies. Beings who are pale (usually white or light grey in color)

[long warren]

ok obviously but why

or what does it mean compared to other pale beings

[rotund pulsar]

https://tenor.com/view/jcsoos-gif-21682697

[ionic basalt]

Power beyond common bugs

[wise sand]

Pale king is void

Notice how there's void where he died and hornet is void?

[rotund pulsar]

I'm not sure I get what you mean. They're just that color so they are referred to by bugs as pale. If you're asking about higher beings then that's not the case. Not all pale beings are higher beings

[rotund pulsar]

I assume you have more of those drawings. Just send them all bro

[lethal burrow]

I don't think widow was made to serve gms... or at least I don't think that has anything to do with her appearance. I think she's just loyal.

[wise sand]

I dont

I got that one from reddit

[ionic basalt]

Widow is a weaver, made to serve gms
But it seems she remained loyal to gms unlike the othets

[rotund pulsar]

Nothing. It just means their color. If anything pale higher beings seem to interact through direct physical contact than other higher beings

[rotund pulsar]

Gms seems to be obsessed with being a mother. The weavers were her first attempt before phantom and lace

[rotund pulsar]

All weavers are women

[rotund pulsar]

They aren't the same. Widow's mask was torn off so she used a rag

[rotund pulsar]

Also that thing isn't an arachnid like the pharlid

[ionic basalt]

Yes weavers are spiders

[rotund pulsar]

I stand corrected. Mites are also arachnids like spiders

That means it's a possibility

[wraith osprey]

It makes sense

[rotund pulsar]

Well, i was wrong the first time so I'll give myself the clown mask

[wraith osprey]

Also it's speculated that's why she's called a beast

[rotund pulsar]

🤡

But I think the bigger question here is. What the hell are the crawbugs??

And no one can convince me otherwise that the thing on mount fay isn't a bird

[ionic basalt]

Bird bugs idk

Evolution

[honest sun]

Ooor are bugs that look like birds

Oooor birds that look like bugs

[wise sand]

I'm not convinced drapemites are mites tbh

[honest sun]

Ive never seen a bug with feather wings

[ionic basalt]

Or just a design choice

Ig the idea was cause crows are smart and craws are smart ig

[wise sand]

Look at it's body

[craggy smelt]

bug-bird

burd

[wise sand]

Team cherry wanted birds in their game so they added antennae and some segmentation

[rotund pulsar]

I'm just gonna assume that the feathers didn't cover that side

[rotund pulsar]

Bro might be on to something

[rotund pulsar]

There is literally mite in the name

[wise sand]

Also called mites btw

[wise sand]

Do not trust team cherry's naming decisions

[rotund pulsar]

I see that now

Welp, can't expect a team of three devs to be perfect

[frosty gate]

What's the topic?

[rotund pulsar]

This fucking bird that I hate

[wise sand]

The only evidence towards drapemites actually being mites is that the big ones have 8 legs(non-zero chance they just added two extra legs cause it's bigger)

[heavy gyro]

Also them being called mites

[wise sand]

Mite

[inner torrent]

hello, what's the discussion today

[inner torrent]

that's a mite? it looks like a, idk

[stark ocean]

their name is tarmite

[inner torrent]

mites are like spiders in hollow knight, there were a lot of those in the game lol

[inner torrent]

i like to think is just a bird in the game style

[wise sand]

Tarmite

[ionic basalt]

https://tenor.com/view/mario-party-mario-party-dry-bones-dry-bones-dry-bones-mario-dry-bone-gif-23789089

[wise sand]

All the things called spiders in hk were pretty spidery

Some of the were pretty off but they still had the vibe atleast

Pretty sure "mite" in silksong just means crawling/annoying thing

[inner torrent]

kinda

we need silverfishes

[wise sand]

So true

[dim basin]

I'm gonna be so mad if it turns out all roots are female and I'm making a male root oc just for it to be not even possible to exist

But like this is for my own oc kingdom so the likeliness of it being possible to exist is unlikely already

[fervent sigil]

well i mean what kind of mask was she wearing

like the ball one?

[lethal burrow]

she looked like all the other girls

[fervent sigil]

so then herrah also ripped it out?

or idk

[lethal burrow]

so far people have chosen to believe that she looks weird because pale king sex OR childbirth

since pureblood Weavers are infertile unless they have God babies as far as we can presume

[fervent sigil]

i mean she did become a fatass after that

[wise sand]

There's a piece of cut content of what appears to be widow getting her mask removed

[fervent sigil]

also

how do i needolin widow when i havent defeated her

without mods

or save file editing

[lethal burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/that's-the-neat-thing-that's-the-neat-part-invincible-gif-3109787441708074597

[fervent sigil]

its not how, why did she rip it?

[wise sand]

It was removed my somebody else

We don't know exactly why

[unique canopy]

In the boss rush DLC, same way you fight Lost Last Judge which exists even though you can't get to act 3 without beating Last Judge

[solar tapir]

Oh wow. Looks like its actually the other weavers that tortured her.

[analog sandal]

Now that I've finished the game to a reasonable amount of completion (97 percent) I can finally participate in lore discussions without getting spoiled

[unique canopy]

That and it looks like the silk surgery device in Whiteward

[analog sandal]

I don't completely get the point of whiteward

Were they trying to force silk into them?

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah WW was injecting silk into bugs in an attempt to increase longevity

[foggy fractal]

its not out of her own choice, presumably the other weavers did it to her because she was loyal to gms

[analog sandal]

I don't understand who built the citadel?

Who are the pilgrims worshipping?

If weavers created the citadel

And pilgrims are made to sing the melody for GMS to stay asleep

Then why did weavers leave and not try to reinforce the bindings so she is perma sleeping

[craggy smelt]

they realized it wasn't going to hold no matter what they did

[worn oyster]

and they a bunch of pussies so they ran away

[sinful nimbus]

They didn't leave they died

Last words of the Weavers.

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

Nothing about them realizing the Citadel wouldn't work or wtv

The Citadel only failed because the Conductors took over after they died and messed stuff up

Whiteward and all that

Caretaker: Have you done it yet, bellringer? Wriggled deep? Discovered the depths of obsession that brought this place so low?

Hornet: If you speak of this Citadel and its Silk, Caretaker, then yes, I now know the start of it.
Hornet: In the ward down below, I saw it clear, the hollowed husks, and the many torturous implements... machines to instill a bug with thread, that would see their life extended.
Caretaker: Aye! That's it, in part! But there's more scale to it than all that. Just think of'em greedily shoving the Silk into their shells, the madness that overcame them, eternal life for mortal bugs! Then think on how long it's all gone on...
Hornet: ...The children born of them, and all the pilgrims after... The Silk has seeded deep into this kingdom's shells, generations deep...
Hornet: No wonder Pharloom's bugs proved such easy prey for that haunted thread. It had only to seek for itself to reach them.
Caretaker: Ho ho! Now you're seein' it, bellringer! These poor pilgrims, all born bound to the cruel system of our world, now stricken in its new cursed web.
You at least are free from it. And free to shake it all up... if'n that's your choosing.

[spark valve]

also the surgeon entry but yeah

[spark valve]

the weavers who left were a group who left before the citadel was created to escape from grand mother silk

the weavenests predate the citadel, they were weavers trying to find ways to deal with her, and the citadel itself was one such solution, specifically the one devised by weavenest atla where you can see a prototype songshrine bell

[analog sandal]

Ah so it was a temp solution

[spark valve]

no

that's a common misconception but they thought it would hold forever

[analog sandal]

lmfao i mean who would fight their own creator

[spark valve]

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence."

[analog sandal]

But the only conductor alive until act 2 says he didn't know shit and he didn't know what to do

[worn oyster]

people who aren't a bunch of pussies duh

[spark valve]

the conductors fucked it up yeah

[analog sandal]

man if I can live to see another day i would

[spark valve]

if they had done their job right it could've held forever, or at least until something else happened to disrupt their song

[analog sandal]

But was it not like they didn't really fuck it up, more like they didn't know the full extent of their duties so they didn't know what they were exactly doing?

[spark valve]

they didn't know exactly what they were doing which led to them fucking it up

[analog sandal]

And was their entire duty just guiding pilgrims and teaching them the song?

So like

[spark valve]

their duty was to keep the song playing forever, how didn't really matter

[analog sandal]

Conductors: they keep up the melody
Architects: they keep everything up and running, fix stuff
Vaultkeepers: being rude fucks and gathering stuff

[spark valve]

and then they decided hey it would be cool to be immortal and started injecting themselves with a sleeping god's life force

[analog sandal]

OH

I didn't know that

[spark valve]

and then Bad Stuff Happened™

[analog sandal]

So the whiteward thing was done by conductors

[spark valve]

yeah that was on their orders

[analog sandal]

What the helly.

I thought they was the good guys

[spark valve]

there aren't really many good guys

[analog sandal]

The last conductor was pretty much on the verge of a mental breakdown

[analog sandal]

my girls phantom and lace are devoid of sin

[spark valve]

phantom sure lace is sort of having a lark running around murdering people

[analog sandal]

(I actually dunno what phantom did tho)

Phantom was like flawed or something right

Which is why she was put in exhaust organ?

What was the relationship with lace and the weavers i wonder

[spark valve]

not really clear why she was put there

[analog sandal]

I see

I wish we got more of karmelita

[spark valve]

well that's just act 3 for ya

[analog sandal]

There's not much about her, is there

[stray fog]

Were the Weavers around when lace was made

[analog sandal]

Lace was made before weavers were.

[spark valve]

maybe

[analog sandal]

Or around the same time

[spark valve]

I don't know why she would've been made before them

[analog sandal]

Would make sense right

[stray fog]

"better a child spun mad than them" seems to imply that lace was made after the Weavers betrayed gms

[spark valve]

eeeh if anything weavers seem more like the first attempt, rougher, not made purely out of silk

[analog sandal]

How can GMS make a child while being in a cocoon

[spark valve]

god stuff potentially

[analog sandal]

That makes more sense

[stray fog]

She can mind control everyone, so she might be able to make a child too

[analog sandal]

I think that would take so much effort.

GMS genuinely did love her kids i think

[spark valve]

in a pretty toxic way but yes

[analog sandal]

She was fighting so hard in the abyss to keep lace alive

[stray fog]

Yes

[analog sandal]

I'm asian bro ts lowkey normal 🥀

[stray fog]

Lmao

[analog sandal]

xd

[spark valve]

literally creating a child who is incapable of aging physically or mentally is sort of another level I'd say

[analog sandal]

Was that mentioned?

She'd forever be a child?

[stray fog]

Lace doesn't seem to age

[spark valve]

Lace? I mean it's not like her nature changes once gms is dead

[stray fog]

She's said to be very old, but she is very child like

[analog sandal]

Also lace's proportions are kinda weird she just has a ball in the middle of the body for a waist 😭

[stray fog]

Spiders have that too

[analog sandal]

I see

[stray fog]

Its probably spider inspired

[sinful nimbus]

fencing pants

[analog sandal]

True but lace stands out amongst them.

[analog sandal]

lmfao

[analog sandal]

okay karmelita is lowkey the same too

Apparently karmelita blocks attacks with her fencing pants too

[spark valve]

doesn't she block with the sickles

[analog sandal]

Does she? I didn't pay attention I was using beast crest and tanking damage everytime xdd

(I'm joking btw i actually use hunters and I didn't notice lol)

[spark valve]

I thought she did a twirl with those to block

[analog sandal]

I think I'll try a play through with beast crest sometime

Until I get the crest ofc

[stray fog]

Beast crest is underrated

[analog sandal]

I wonder if we have lore about other crests aside from witch obviously

[spark valve]

if she did block with the 'dress' it could be something like hornet's own cloak (though she can't use it defensively) where it's lined with something

[stray fog]

Dodging is a government hoax

[analog sandal]

It fucking sucks i won't lie

[analog sandal]

Her dress seems to be a weapon cause she does do the whirling attack

[spark valve]

oh yeah there are blades in there

[analog sandal]

There's so many bad things about beast crest

[stray fog]

The needolin dialogue for all chapels suggests that they were dedicated to the remembrance of a specific community

(for example, reaper = greymoor farmers)

[spark valve]

karmelita runs sawtooth circlet

[spark valve]

it definitely requires you to play a very specific way but if you do it's quite powerful

[analog sandal]

-shit pogo
-passive is literally doesn't heal you, you gotta facetank everything to deal damage
-you need actual silk to use passive attacks
-no blue slots 🥀

[analog sandal]

It is but I think sometimes it's just not worth

[stray fog]

I love reckless gameplay

What the fuck is dodging

[spark valve]

yeah idk if beast is really exceptional aside from fights with a lot of blocking like seth or karm

[analog sandal]

This style is more common with wanderers crest users i won't lie

People who actually use beast crest are very calculated and they kinda know their way around cause they have usually put in a decent number of hours to master it

[spark valve]

but anyways crest lore yeah a lot of them don't have that much specifically about them, though the sort of categorizing has interesting implications about a bunch of super in the weeds stuff in hk lore like aura

[analog sandal]

True

The chapels are quite goated and I love their designs.

[spark valve]

they're neat

[stray fog]

The mask maker might be reading crests here. So I wonder if eva also has "the sight", like the mask maker does

[spark valve]

that seems to be the case yeah

[analog sandal]

Okay

Does he have diff dialogue if u go to him with different crests

[spark valve]

don't think so but it seems like he, like eva, is sort of seeing past the crest hornet has equipped to her true malleable nature

[analog sandal]

Oh

What do masks really signify?

Just the person inside or what

[spark valve]

it's used synonymously with faces in literal contexts but in the context of mask maker it's like your identity

in a more abstract sense

[sinful nimbus]

OK OK but if you throw on Injector Bands you can heal before the iframes from getting hit run out

[spark valve]

ok shill

[sinful nimbus]

Which basically means the only things that can kill you are Shakra and Lugoli

[frigid belfry]

modify both mental and physical state of a bug depending on the mask's purpose

[unique canopy]

Masks basically feel like a physical representation of personas to me, but like the actual Jungian pseudopsychology and not the video game series. They're shaped based on the public role the bug takes, but can suppress everything under the mask (the shadow) and too much conflict between the mask and the true self can cause severe psychological instability.

[crystal vapor]

What are bugs like Pharlids suppressing do you think

Savage bugs with masks

[hushed viper]

These few are dumb as hell ngl

[unique canopy]

What would be suppressed would just be their most basic instincts, replaced with the sapient thought of being the monarch's chosen divine children. In their case the mask helps uplift them as being above other common bugs in station. Their savageness by itself isn't suppressed, just placed into a different context as figures of veneration who enforce that veneration through fear.

[frosty gate]

Everytime I see an image of the Weaversong I know the topic is going to be funny

Whats going on?

[unique canopy]

"Don't go back, Absolom, it's not worth it."
"But we can totally use this void stuff to kill GMS back home, it'll definitely work."
Narrator's voice: "It did not definitely work."

[frosty gate]

I think the theory that Absolom came back from Hallownest is kinda dumb honestly

[hushed viper]

I mean it DID work, it's just that they prob didnt douse her in enough void, something the snails were able to do by bringing the void to her instead of the other way around

Also hiiiii teto i'be been using your skin ingame ^-^

[frosty gate]

We have no clue what they did

[unique tangle]

Still don’t get why they chose to go back to pharloom, out of the entire bug world are pharloom and hallownest your only options??

[mossy jay]

Until the third game is released yeah

[unique tangle]

“Guys I don’t think this frying pan is working out for us, let’s go into the fire instead”

[mossy jay]

I mean there's Lands Serene, wherever that might be.

Cloth and Zote might be from somewhere else instead.

[frosty gate]

I feel like they wanted to check if things went to hell or not

[opal magnet]

Pale kings power is foresight, and that's what made them a higher being
All higher beings have SOME sort of power. This power passes down to the knight and hornet per how they wake up when they "die". The foresight being somewhat magic allows them to assert that as actually happening if they succeed. The downside? It uses up a bit of soul energy and the material on them on death. This is where gameplay as lore separate a tad as it explains why shades/cocoons are left on death.
The ability also requires intense focus to use (thus a bench). So lore-wise the actual difficulty for hornet and the knight is between steel soul and normal, as they can try again but not infinitely.

[opal magnet]

This also ties into the pose of the pale king:
They have the animation as though they'd have just died but of course never get up because they tried to many times and in no attempt did they survive.

[unique tangle]

That’s like going back to Chernobyl to check if it’s still irradiated or not

[hushed viper]

We dont need to wait for a third game, the cradle already tells us that other kingdoms already exist

Like the City of Steel is atleast one of them, but according to the seers it might not be a good place but it CANT be worse than the Radiance and/or GMS

[opal magnet]

If this is true also makes sense for pale kings other power of those leaving hollow nest to forget it
Foresight and memory are his abilities

Also it gives a tad of info about their character and how much he loves to plan, as gods abilities (and MOST magic in general) ties to ones desires

[mossy jay]

"It can't possibly be worse than Radiance or GMS"
-Man about to find something worse

[opal magnet]

"Maurice, the champion of steel."

[hushed viper]

Its either become a pulsating zombie or a slave, idk man the only thing worse is death but i doubt anywhere else is more deadly than "Evil Zombieland" or "Evil Silkland"

[opal magnet]

City of steel will be either roguelike or roguelite, theres no other way due to the extreme ties to steel soul mode and likely dlc status

[hushed viper]

Also speaking of Pale King, i just realised that the entire "Leave this kingdom and you'll lose your memories" thing is not cuz the edges of the kingdom makes you forget, but instead it's cuz you're getting further away from the influence of your sentience

[unique tangle]

The Mist was just a preview of their new roguelike mechanics

[opal magnet]

I wouldn't say it causes sentience, as much as BOOSTS it

[hushed viper]

Ofc Hornet is immune cuz her sentience comes from the fact she came from sentient creatures

[opal magnet]

Otherwise hornet couldn't be kidnapped in the first place as her would-be captors would forget along the way

[hushed viper]

[opal magnet]

But I do believe part of the memory loss is not due to leaving area but because of pale kings magic

[hushed viper]

I think it wouldn't have that much effect on them, as they're already sentient without PK's influence

[opal magnet]

To stop the radiance from being able to spread beyond hallownest

Pale king if still alive would be 100% proud of his (surviving) children

[lethal burrow]

Yes, except no because it actually seems like it was a Weaver era thing

[sinful nimbus]

Silkflies yes silk injection no

[frosty gate]

Not if you don't know if Chernobyl exploded or not, they escaped before it all happened.

Or rather, while it was happening

[frosty gate]

I'm still unsure about that shit, I think they did, but we don't know enough to give a concrete conclusion about it

[sinful nimbus]

wym

[frosty gate]

I mean I think the Weavers did inject the silk

[unique tangle]

No it’s like why risk it at all lmao

[frosty gate]

We just don't know

[unique tangle]

Why go to a possibly nuclear zone

[sinful nimbus]

Might be retconned ngl

[unique tangle]

Vs a definitely not nuclear zone

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers fled to start anew it would be weird to go back to Pharloom

[unique tangle]

There’s no good reason for them to even try pharloom at all

[frosty gate]

Because if your sisters did succeed, you're Gods

Imagine if Chernobyl was a gamble

[unique tangle]

They left cause they knew it wasn’t succeeding and the rest of them stayed to die

[frosty gate]

You fled an experiment

[sinful nimbus]

?

They left to flee GMS

[frosty gate]

Oh, I know what you mean, but I think you are wrong at source and that's why you are saying this

[unique tangle]

Yea exactly

There’s no reason to gamble it

[frosty gate]

Weavers fled while GMS got trapped

Or rather in the midst of the revolution

Not after

It's either in the middle of the revolution or before

But definitely while GMS was still active

[unique tangle]

The Cindril rune harp mentions the citadel so it’s after

[sinful nimbus]

It does not

[unique tangle]

It says free of web and service eternal

Web being the name the weavers use for the citadel

[sinful nimbus]

Atla also describes GMS's reign as a web, that's the weaver term for exploitative systems

[frosty gate]

No it doesn't

Plea of a Weaver from the furthest edge of Pharloom.

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.

To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

[unique tangle]

Web born of our naive foundation fits the description of the citadel even more lol

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah silken sight is kinda a giveaway that its about GMS

[sinful nimbus]

No it doesn't

[frosty gate]

It's literally about GMS

The Citadel isn't even their service