sk-lore

[hushed crater]

Makes sense considering how literally everyone who got the game before r the first was complaining at the beginning

[dusky dagger]

Most of the people complaining just buy it because of the hype

[hushed crater]

And I got the game late to finish true ending hk and the bosses were barely harder at the first 2 chapters

[hushed crater]

Yea

[dusky dagger]

I think act 3 bosses are literally too simple

To be the final act

In my opinion the most of them lack fun

Nyleth is straigth boring

Same with khann

[hushed crater]

They should have been harder especially khan

[dusky dagger]

Seth is just a normal boss

[lilac hedge]

They arent simple you simply have more skill and tools to fight them

[dusky dagger]

First try

[dusky dagger]

I thought they were hard since people were crying about difficult of act 3

[hushed crater]

Well he was designed by a kid as his wish so makes sense he isn't the most complicated

[dusky dagger]

Well is understable

Also i like that the voice of seth is the brother of seth or atleast that was what i saw

Knowing team cherry it prolly is true

[lilac hedge]

They are prob talking about the void enemies which suck ass

[dusky dagger]

Btw if you didnt fought beastfly in act 2 or 1 they become void

[hushed crater]

I think they were too similar all of them had the exact same 2 buffs unlike infected crossroads for example

[dusky dagger]

Dont remember of that horrible thing

I suffered so much

My myla my myla

[lilac hedge]

Dont you need to like do a wish for killing a beastfly to get to act 3

[dusky dagger]

Nope

Its optional

You only need 29

And you can skip that one

With witchs crest

Or second sentinnel

Also

I dont remember what i was gonna say oh my god

Come to the kingdom edge

[hushed crater]

Don't remind me of that thing

[dusky dagger]

I hate it too

But i hate shakra prices more

That why cornifer the goat

[hushed crater]

He even sings better

[dusky dagger]

Yup

[hushed crater]

And survived a pool of accid

[dusky dagger]

And has a wife

And passed through a void barrier

Which bumnet cant

[hushed crater]

He used a pool with accid at the other entrance

[hushed crater]

Just because of that he can solo shakra in a 1v1 to the death

[dusky dagger]

That still good for that fat as hell bug

[dusky dagger]

I think that the wife of cornifer was in shakras tribe

They look so similar

[hushed crater]

She isn't yellow tho and in hollow knight everything is about colour

Pale beings

[dusky dagger]

And also i think cornifer has battle skills but hes just to scary

[hushed crater]

Yellow tribe

Black wyrm

[dusky dagger]

Since his wife says that she misses her old battle days with cornifer (she doesnt said it directly) but since she loves him so much she just wait for him to come home

Why is every piece of lore in this game so hided

I hate and love it

[hushed crater]

She might be

[dusky dagger]

Probably shakra yellow thing

Is a armor

Since it looks way too strong to be normal

Also the two have tails

Well mini tails

And look almost same

[hushed crater]

That doesn't change much we know the cannibal bug isn't part of the grim troupe

[dusky dagger]

What cannibal bug

[hushed crater]

And the other 2 elder tribe members look nothing like shakra

[dusky dagger]

Trobbio isnt cannibal

[hushed crater]

The 1 in the first game that sits at a stag station

[dusky dagger]

Well thats true

[dusky dagger]

Oooh

[hushed crater]

And looks like the 2 Infront of the troupe

[dusky dagger]

He just a normal mantis

[hushed crater]

Exactly

[dusky dagger]

They are way taller than him of what i remember

He almost the same height as the knight

[hushed crater]

Isn't it the opposite

His neck is longer

[dusky dagger]

I personally dont remember

I havent touch hollow knignt in 5 months

[hushed crater]

I only play the phabteons recently

Right now I am at p5

[dusky dagger]

You know something a thing that was horrible

That in the first game theres almost no lore since it was speedrun

It was originally supossed to be out in 2015

Since there was no budget

But they got more so it changed to 2017

Imagine if they had a very large budget we would have a very good lore

Well a incredible one

We would probably have figths like hegemol

Isma

That one that protected the white lady

It would be soo good

Sadly they didnt have enough money

[hushed crater]

Yea

And the biggest of losses we didn't get zote as the tird playable character

[dusky dagger]

Zote would be way too overpowered

Like imagine his power

Daddy issues and he gives pity to his enemys

And they suddenly die

Okay that was a bad joke sorry

And disrepectful one

[hushed crater]

He just has his luck stat maxed out

[dusky dagger]

King of onp 2.0

The only reason why i hste zote is because he stole my girl

[craggy smelt]

valid

[hushed crater]

Well as payment you can murder his entire bloodline in cold blood in the internal ordeal

[dusky dagger]

Isnt enough

I want more

I dont care he has like 20 traumas with his dad

My girl is my girl

(Sarcasm)

Actually zote dream version

Is the most powerfull boss

Since he can do 8masks from just one attack

Why is he so overpowered

For no reason

He make me ragequit at pantheon 3 like 9 times

He is the reason why i stopped playing hollow knight

I hate him

And that stupid explosive zote

They are worse than path of pain

Only for that im gonna kill lost lace until dlc for silksong

[hushed crater]

Yk you can skip him in the phanteon

[dusky dagger]

Didnt knew before

Thought it was obligatory

[hushed crater]

He becomes easy after beating him like 5 times

[dusky dagger]

I only beat him one time thats why

Because in every other run i just let him die

[mild adder]

I just practiced him in the hall of gods until I got good

It was that or re-doing a play through only to do slightly easier versions of p3 and p5, and I am way too lazy and stubborn to do that lol

[pale pier]

i did pantheon 5 twice on two diff saves and yiu can guess which save i died 6 more times on 🫩

[dreamy onyx]

Are the Stilkin haunted? Because if not then I suspect it's due to both the water and the muckmaggots in Bilewater

[visual glacier]

Yes

[dreamy onyx]

In the original it was mentioned the spiders silk is really bad with rain

[dreamy onyx]

oops

[visual glacier]

Might be a retcon because of the whole point of greymoor

Actually I just checked, seems like he was referring to the writing on the silk

So not a retcon

[narrow horizon]

Victims are never immune to being bad people or doing terrible things, which isn't just excused because they're victims

[frank dove]

That was even planned 😢

I know, read everything I said

Literally just 1 more line

[dreamy onyx]

I guess but the children deserve to be free.

Though considering they're all Haunted I think they'd instinctually return to the Slab anyway

[narrow horizon]

Oh definitely lol

The slab bugs still suck but they shouldn't be locked up for the crimes of their ancestors

[lucid bloom]

True but i don’t think they’ve necessarily even done anything evil?? They’re just working with what they’ve been given. They don’t really have a choice.

[inner torrent]

VERDANIA SUCKS

[heavy needle]

Overall it does kinda the area is underwhelming even with clover dancers and we don’t talk about the tedious fight of pale stag

What do you hope we get for pantheons hopefully absolute GMS or lost lace

[narrow horizon]

loster lace

zoro lace

found lace

[inner torrent]

The Sacred Silk Family.
A trio fight of pale phantom, prime gms and Lace

[narrow horizon]

sisters of battle but with three different characters that have different movesets that cover nearly the entire screen

💔

[inner torrent]

I was thinking of lace and phantom more as "Helpers" that appear from time to time

[stray fog]

I like how in silksong, gms is more involved than the radiance was

She tries to kill hornet multiple times during her journey

[pearl thunder]

rad tries to kill TK constantly

[stray fog]

But the only time we see the radiance acknowledging the knight's existence is thjd one dreamnail dialogue

[stray fog]

?

[pearl thunder]

the infected bugs

[stray fog]

They might be aggressive by nature

Even if they specifically target the knight, the dream nail dialogue is the only time when the player is directly informed that the radiance is actively targeting the knight

While in silksong, this happens multiple times whenever strings appear from above and a gauntlet starts

[halcyon merlin]

clearly she's talking about thk

[terse warren]

That dream nail dialogue is explicitly Radiance telling Myla to kill TK

We can therefore assume she told the others the same

So yes, Rad is trying to kill TK constantly

[stray fog]

I know that she is trying constantly, but this dialogue is the only direct indication to the player that she is doing that

[neat scroll]

Sup lore masters

[sonic sleet]

silksong godhome should be just the same one but taken over by void (so just voidhome) instead of bindings for pantheons there would be option to make bosses faster stronger have more health and enemies between the boss fights and for hall of gods bosses would have attuned voided(bosses are covered in void) and third one which name I dunno(like radiant but bosses instakill + have void attacks)

[lethal burrow]

only groal

[lethal burrow]

more people need to read maus fr.

amazing book

[lethal burrow]

you can tell who is and is not if strings appear when getting them to sing with the needolin

[sinful nimbus]

Slabflies are definitely excused by virtue of being slaves though

[sonic sleet]

honestly it doesn't make sense that groal is haunted he should also be free from the silk strings

[sinful nimbus]

Groal ain't the sharpest tool in the shed

[sonic sleet]

also what is with chapel of the beast why is it in hunter's march and what does it have to do anything with skarrs only thing I know is that karmelita uses beast crest downward attack just like the one we get from binding the beast from the chapel

[frosty gate]

We know nothing, but it would make sense that it was a big beast the ants killd long ago

[lethal burrow]

ye sort of but maybe silk and soul or something has a connection or made him susceptible or something else or added all there's there's enough there to come up with some sort of explanation

[lucid bloom]

Are the slabflies haunted? I can’t check right now

[frosty gate]

Why wouldnt he be?

[sonic sleet]

all stilkins aren't affected by the haunting and also it would make more sense lorewise that he avoided the haunting same way as stilkins and is attacking hornet because despite hating the citadel groal really cares about getting more powerful

[lethal burrow]

I wouldn't be overly surprised if it was an oversight to be fr but there's also enough there that I can see it having a logical in world explanation that was also intended

[frosty gate]

Wait, do the stilkin not show thread when using the Needolin?

[sonic sleet]

nope that means they aren't haunted they just attack because of their hate

[frosty gate]

Well it really feels like this one is an oversight, Groal being Haunted I mean

Unless there's something we're missing

Wait isn't there silk right above his stage?

Or close

[lethal burrow]

they don't appear to be

[frosty gate]

I feel like this is a thing the Wiki should say

Haunted: ✅ or 🚫

[unique tangle]

They do also they give off silk when they’re hit

They’re haunted

[frosty gate]

Ok, now we got two people saying opposite things, someone go to bilewater and needolin a bitch

[lethal burrow]

things that give you silk when you hit them aren't always haunted

[unique tangle]

No like they give off the silk hit particles

[lethal burrow]

it could just be that they have the silk on them then

[unique tangle]

When you smack and kill them

[lethal burrow]

or maybe the strings are a later stage of the haunting

idk

[unique tangle]

No the game is coded so only haunted enemies have that

Gurr doesn’t

Nor do the verdanian enemies

[lethal burrow]

In what way does the game indicate through the code that having the string means they're haunted

[sonic sleet]

silksong has the same lore problem I had with hollow knight there are enemies that I think shouldn't be impacted by haunting/infection

[unique tangle]

In the same way that having orange hit particles is an indication of infection in HK

[frosty gate]

I keep saying this, but I think that Silksong is a lot more convoluted

[lethal burrow]

yeah, but the difference is that orange mist is not something you can carry around and here string is a useful and powerful resource Somebody might have a reason to carry around or gather

So it's not quite as clear cut

[lucid bloom]

I can’t check if the slabflies are haunted because i’m in act 3 oops

[lethal burrow]

oh shoot same

nvm what i said before lol

[sonic sleet]

man they should make silksong dlc already I need more bosses and lore to fight

[unique tangle]

No it really is just that simple

Trobbio isn’t haunted so no silk particles

TC didn’t really overthink this

[lucid bloom]

I see

[lethal burrow]

I feel like you're not understanding what I'm saying

Intentionally or otherwise

[frosty gate]

Ok, I'm not sure I agree with River but you're overthinking this.
Wouldn't they use silk stuff if they had silk tools?

[lethal burrow]

I feel like I presented it pretty clearly, but I don't know. Maybe I did a bad job

[frosty gate]

Yet they don't

[unique tangle]

Silk particles is an indication of haunting and if no silk particles then the enemy isn’t haunted that’s all

[frosty gate]

The common assumption would be to think they're haunted

I particularly don't know because I just killed things and don't remember what gives Silk particles or not

[unique tangle]

TC really didn’t make this complicated

[lucid bloom]

I think i agree with river, it would be weird for TC to make it any other way i think?

[lethal burrow]

well they're using soul power yes? wouldn't they want to gather it up to use it as opposed to expanding it on traps?

and besides, I'm not arguing for probability I'm arguing for possibility.

to discount it and say "nope its just this one way that's it End of story." sucks Winter is clearly multiple possibilities that can't exist and are not too unlikely.

[unique tangle]

Is that watcher Khann yaoi

[lethal burrow]

You're not a team charry you don't know what they think you can choose to have your interpretations, but I think it reflects poorly on your character to make such definitive statements in this context

[unique tangle]

No but what I do have is pattern recognition

[lethal burrow]

Being condescending also does not reflect well on your character either

[unique tangle]

TC made it intentionally so that all non haunted bugs don’t give off silk

[lucid bloom]

That makes sense

[unique tangle]

Seeing that it makes sense that if an enemy gives off silk it’s haunted

Or a silk construct ig if we want a third option

[frosty gate]

But we don't see them have any silk collecting tools like the folks down the Moor

[lethal burrow]

no, that's what you think.
you're just attributing your own opinion to the actions of team cherry.

maybe that is both what they did and the reason they did it.

but you can't just decide what reality is you can't like bend of the laws of the universe through space and time

[unique tangle]

? Are we okay

[lucid bloom]

Do all enemies with silk particles also have haunting strings?

Because i know those aren’t a thing in act 3 anymore

[unique tangle]

Yes

[lapis creek]

man i hate it when people pretend to be god its so annoying

[unique tangle]

They are a thing in act 3 too interestingly

[lucid bloom]

Word???

[unique tangle]

They just point into the ground

So most of the time you can’t see it

[lucid bloom]

Yeah but they arent visible

[unique tangle]

But the game is coded so that they do exist

[lucid bloom]

True

[unique tangle]

It’s why we know that crawfather is haunted, that and the silk particles

[lethal burrow]

stilkin do not have haunting strings going up to the cocoon

[unique tangle]

Since he was also in contention for being haunted or not

[lethal burrow]

you need to make it distinction between the things that are actually in the game and the things that are only in the code.

without that distinction we might as well treat file names as higher Canon then character dialogue because they're not technically from a biased perspective.

[lucid bloom]

Can you provide a source?

[lethal burrow]

Sure, I'll go grab a screenshot

[lapis creek]

are stilkin supposed to be haunted though

[unique tangle]

What are we talking about

This is just lore theorizing

[lethal burrow]

You were just shutting down ideas earlier, so I thought you were just using game files to push your opinion as facts

[unique tangle]

???

Why are we upset

Where was I shutting down ideas? I’m explaining why the stilkin are haunted

[lethal burrow]

you were being dismissive and condescending

[unique tangle]

Using stuff from ingame

[lethal burrow]

Well, forgive me for maybe misinterpreting something but that's not how it seemed to me

[frosty gate]

I see no reason why they would not be supposed to

[unique tangle]

I’m sorry if you thought I was condescending

I forgive you

[frosty gate]

Now hug

[unique tangle]

Considering groal is I’d say so

[lapis creek]

i dont think mola ever referenced anything that was in the files in a way that wasnt expressed in the game

[unique tangle]

And they haven’t patched him out to be non haunted yet

[lethal burrow]

he is the only one who uses magic related soul stuff though so maybe that's why he's haunted

[unique tangle]

Yea anything in the code I mentioned can be verified in game

I’m not using an external info here

[lapis creek]

the word 'coded' doesnt necessarily mean just a reference to the game's script

[frosty gate]

And they've patched some lore relevant things into so i don't think its weird they would patch something out

[lapis creek]

or programming

[lucid bloom]

Does anyone have evidence of the slabflies being haunted in act 1/2 with strings/particles? i don’t have an act 1/2 save that can get there quickly atm

[lethal burrow]

I have a save. Let me run around to it since I'm gathering the screenshots anyway

[lucid bloom]

Thanks 👍

[frosty gate]

I don't think it would be weird for the Stilkin to be haunted to be honest, or at the very least half haunted.
Kinda like the ants

[lethal burrow]

they are I was fed misinformation against my knowledge 💔

i'm gonna get craw screenshots as well

[frosty gate]

They do have thread?

[lethal burrow]

They do

[frosty gate]

Well that's that

[lucid bloom]

Haunting is quite odd, haunted bugs seem to retain a lot more free will than I had thought?

[lapis creek]

is anybody not haunted

[unique tangle]

Trobbio

[frosty gate]

Motted Ants

Songclave Pilgrims

[lethal burrow]

CRAW ARE ALSO HAUNTED??? they literally have no signs of it. This makes no sense.

[lapis creek]

i mean like standard enemies

[lethal burrow]

Like actions wise I mean

[lapis creek]

who you can kill and not see threads

[unique tangle]

Everything in the elegy memories

[spark valve]

those bugs on the surface

[lapis creek]

i guess if gurr doesnt have threads thats good enough

oh yeah

[lethal burrow]

none of the motted ones have th

[frosty gate]

Yes, its weird.
It's not like the infection where it raises the dead as zombies, these seem to just to be... "Preserved"

[lapis creek]

you cant kill any other mottled ones

[frosty gate]

No thread either? I don't think they're haunted honestly

[lethal burrow]

No, they have it. It's just that their actions as characters seem like they're not.

[frosty gate]

People are saying they're haunted?

[lethal burrow]

Like they seem aware and alive

[whole holly]

pretty much puppeted with silk nothing else

[frosty gate]

But they have their own will

[frosty gate]

Oh well, the Craws are overall weird

[whole holly]

i didn't say they don't

[tepid mountain]

Haunted pilgrims are the only ones that stand out to me as acting strangely.

Cause a normal pilgrim wouldn’t just attack Hornet.

[lucid bloom]

If haunted bugs don’t have some semblance of free will, would gms be the one doing this? I don’t think she would??

[frosty gate]

This is probably a stupid task, but should we categorize the types of Haunting?

There's at least two

[unique tangle]

Alive and dead?

[lethal burrow]

OK here

[whole holly]

they might just have varying degreees

[lucid bloom]

Thanks!!!

[frosty gate]

Pilgrims are alive, they just go crazy

But Ants are also alive and act relatively normal, same with the Stilkin and the Craws

[unique tangle]

Yea I meant are the two versions you meant the haunting that affects alive bugs and the haunting that revives dead bugs?

[frosty gate]

I meant more the type that makes you crazy and the type that just keeps you around doing stuff you were already doing

[lethal burrow]

why do the haunted pilgrims act different than other haunted creatures? the answer: probably they act weird because they have whiteward lineage.

[frosty gate]

Like this

[lucid bloom]

I like to think the haunting is less gms taking control and more like. gms altering their will a bit? Making them hostile but still keeping their habits and self?? Idk

[lethal burrow]

There's a difference between the silk inside of you getting controlled versus just being strung up

[frosty gate]

I hate how much the Haunting feels like something from Mistborn book 3

[unique tangle]

It is hard to tell with tribes that would aggressively attack you regardless of haunting

[frosty gate]

I mean, they're just doing what they would usually do. Meanwhile you have the haunted bone horses that keep fleeing

[tepid mountain]

I guess since the mottled ants don’t attack you, all ants normally wouldn’t if they weren’t haunted?

I dunno about stilkin tho.

[frosty gate]

No, Motts are special

Gurr does attack you tho

Although Gurr is its own kind of insane

[lucid bloom]

I think the skarr would be like the mantis

[frosty gate]

Oh wait they might actually not attack you let me check something

[unique tangle]

Also it’s hard to say for the craws for sure since they kinda border the line between bug and beast

[lucid bloom]

True

[unique tangle]

They do seem to have a society but other bugs just treat them as pests and also just like

[lucid bloom]

I mean theyre smart enough to have a court

[unique tangle]

Cook and eat them

[lucid bloom]

Isn’t that just lugoli?

[unique tangle]

I mean Lugoli isn’t just cooking for herself

[lucid bloom]

lugoli has pickled pilgrims

So i think they’re just a cannibal

[frosty gate]

"...Is this still her song?"
I think they're just fighting because they think they're protecting Karmel

[unique tangle]

The pickled pilgrims seem to be a private thing but you can see the bodies of craws just hanging out in her arena

So I think they were just regular food

[lethal burrow]

What's your take on these ruins?

[frosty gate]

I honestly have no idea

[lucid bloom]

Hm. I don’t know, i’m pretty sure they just cook whatever they want. I think craws are sapient? The sapient bugs being pickled is likely just regular storage

[frosty gate]

And no they're not from the "Stone Citadel" or whatever

[unique tangle]

The memorium also just treats the craws as birds

[lucid bloom]

Fair

That could just be the citadel being the citadel but it’s more likely that they’re just more beast than bug

[frosty gate]

I have the theory that the Craws are just evolved beasts and their settling is very recent

[lucid bloom]

But they have a court which is weird

[frigid belfry]

most likely built during the weaver era of the citadel, aka the stone citadel

[frosty gate]

They seem to understand social concepts and are able to apply them

[frigid belfry]

these were the foundations of the fake religion they set up

[unique tangle]

I also wonder how the court was used before the craws took over

[frosty gate]

Some of those are inside Verdania and in Karak, can't be it

[lucid bloom]

They use weapons and tools

[tepid mountain]

Did the craws make the air tunnel and balloon mechanisms?

[lucid bloom]

Ambiguous sapience

[frosty gate]

So it seems

[frigid belfry]

could be, verdania and karak fell at gms's time, the weaver era is after karka fell (for sure we know this) and most likely after verdnaia fell aswell

[unique tangle]

Hornet calls out that the pins they use are scavenged at least

[lethal burrow]

explain the karak architecture being built on top of it then

[frosty gate]

That screenshot is inside Lost Verdania memory, before it fell.
Also we don't know where in the timeline did Karak fall

[lucid bloom]

True but sapient folk can scavenge too. That only implies they didn’t make the tools. They seem decent at wielding them

[lethal burrow]

It also has strung up like regular pilgrim dudes though

[frigid belfry]

i wouldnt call it being built on top of it per se, it looks like coral deposits grew on it after years

[frigid belfry]

its implied karak fell directly due to gms and drying up

timeline is still very unclear but this is just my thinking

[unique tangle]

Not including the taxidermy room cause that place is extra weird

They have craws just in the regular exhibits

[frigid belfry]

very possible karak fell pre-conductor era

[unique tangle]

Which seems to just be dedicated to beasts

[lethal burrow]

those look very railingy

[lethal burrow]

Could you grab a screenshot?

[lucid bloom]

the room with the giant flea

[frosty gate]

This? Yes, but we don't know if it was during GMS or during Weavers

[lucid bloom]

dead craw 👍

[unique tangle]

The craws are sure dead

[lucid bloom]

khann mentions a pale light, pretty sure it was gms era

[lethal burrow]

The fleas are also sentient and yet one is intrapped

[frosty gate]

That means he knew of GMS, but that doesn't mean they fell entirely because of her

[unique tangle]

The one trapped is not a wholly sentient talking flea tho

[lucid bloom]

let's be so real, the citadel 100% would put sapient bugs in cages for display

[frosty gate]

It's also weird because theres also NPCs who spoke of a Pale Light who shouldnt know

[lucid bloom]

they have no moral standards

[frosty gate]

Like that penitent below FS stage (IIRC)

[lucid bloom]

this implies to me that he died during the gms era

[lethal burrow]

so it's only OK to imprison children

[frosty gate]

"...Your light...
...Forgive my silence...
...Too weak... to return...
I failed you..."

Random Penitent corpse beneath the slab

[unique tangle]

Why?

[lethal burrow]

well, you're saying it makes sense to imprison the flea just because it's not old enough to talk

[lucid bloom]

fascinating..

[frosty gate]

The light thing is weird

[unique tangle]

What

[lucid bloom]

pale light is specific

so idk...

[frosty gate]

That kinda just means they're the only ones who resisted, but we still don't know how the water dried up

[unique tangle]

Where does it say that all the lost fleas are children?

[frosty gate]

And Karak never falls until the Water dried up

[lethal burrow]

I assume you're aware that the fleas we find around the map are simply young fleas yes?

[lethal burrow]

oh, you didn't know I'll find the dialogue one sec

[lucid bloom]

and if verdania was destroyed before karak, as is khann implies, and hornet mentions pale beings just being like that to gp-

idk.

[unique tangle]

Even then what does that have to do with what you’re originally saying?

I’m not saying whether is it’s “ok” or not for the memorium to do such just that they had a reason to do so

[rocky coyote]

GUYS
THE GESTURE HORNET DOES WITH HER HAND WHEN BINDING WITHOUT THE NEEDLE IS THE SAME GESTURE WIDOW DOES AT THE START OF THE FIGHT

is that a weaver gesture?

or was widow binding?

[frosty gate]

I hate that fucking interaction so much

[lucid bloom]

i think craw are sapient. too much about them is weird

[lucid bloom]

fair

[frosty gate]

Gay Prince makes no mention of GMS at no point in the entire game

But Hornet says like "Yeah Pale ones and their quirks"

And GP has no reaction to it

Like DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT KNOW????

At least act like "Yeah i hate your kind"

[lucid bloom]

i think gms era was longer and more bad than most people give credit for

[frosty gate]

Or "I have no idea wtf you talking about"

But Verdania didn't fall under GMS

[lucid bloom]

because of the cogworks?

[frosty gate]

All evidence points to Verdania falling under Citadel

[lucid bloom]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[frosty gate]

And then fully dying after Haunting

[lucid bloom]

could be a plothole of some sort

[frosty gate]

I think Hornet just made an out of pocket comment

[lucid bloom]

perhapss

but that seems

weird to do from a writing standpoint

and not have it be corrected

[frosty gate]

It doesn't make sense otherwise

[lucid bloom]

maybe the citadel existed before it was repurposed to cage gms? idk

[frosty gate]

The Citadel was explicitly made to be a cage

[lucid bloom]

hm...

[frosty gate]

I hate this timeline so much

[lucid bloom]

fr

[unique tangle]

It’s not very intuitive but a plausible explanation probably just is that Hornet is referring to the citadel as an extension of GMS’ effects on the land

[frosty gate]

I swear HK wasn't this bad

[unique tangle]

Not explained very well tho

[frosty gate]

I would agree on that, honestly, but it's so vaguely explained

[lucid bloom]

did gms always live in the cradle?

[frosty gate]

And so badly worded if so

[unique tangle]

Yeah

[frosty gate]

Presumably

[unique tangle]

You can find the weaver harps in there

[lucid bloom]

it would make sense for her weavers to have some sort of city there then?

[frosty gate]

Yes, but that would be inside the Cradel

[lucid bloom]

some of this shit don't make no sense fr

[frosty gate]

It really don't

[lethal burrow]

"These poor little fleas will never grow to roam the world as we have, so let us give them what happiness we can before the end." - fleamaster mooshka

[lethal burrow]

it was a somewhat sarcastic jokey response

[unique tangle]

Vog has a better more explicit line about it

But yeah they are young you are right

[lucid bloom]

man pharloom must've been cool before gms ruined it

[lethal burrow]

so yeah, I don't think the craw being in cages is a good indication that their animalistic

[unique tangle]

No I still disagree

[lucid bloom]

there's too much conflicting evidence about craws

[unique canopy]

Grrr....Mine was to track, by trail and smell and senses sharp. Find our friend fleas, our young most of most, to bring them together so strong they could grow.

[unique tangle]

The huge flea doesn’t speak and it acts animalistic, if it was Kratt in the cage then I could see the citadel being weird about capturing sentient bugs

But the huge flea could be mistaken for a beast

[lucid bloom]

they can wield and use tools and weapons, they have a court where they judge hornet for her crimes
but also they're seen as pests and are caged and killed for food

[unique tangle]

Still the original point is just that other bugs treat the craws as more beast than bug and the memorium is just on supporting bit of evidence

[lucid bloom]

might be like a reference to how intelligent crows irl are I guess?

[frank dove]

Maybe they are animalistic because they were in the cage tho

[unique tangle]

Skinning a craw is fine

[frank dove]

All their life

[unique tangle]

But I suspect it would be an issue to skin like

Pilby

[lethal burrow]

Creating a statue out of flesh is a good way to scare people off

[lucid bloom]

dubious sapience...

[lethal burrow]

pilby didn't piss off Craich

[frosty gate]

I don't think Big Flea is an old flea honestly

[lucid bloom]

i mean hornet does get a quest to strip pilgrims of their clothes which is weird

[unique tangle]

Yea I mean to say that it’s treated as normal to treat the craws as beasts, Creige sees them as such and Hornet has no gripes about it

[lethal burrow]

They are big baby

[unique tangle]

Still at least she’s not skinning them

Like the craws

[lethal burrow]

hornet is that a good example as a normal moral character

[lucid bloom]

i suppose

[unique canopy]

No problem harvesting their organs if mommy huntress wants them though

[frosty gate]

Wrong answer

BUT WE'RE NOT DOING THIS

Let's not go there

[lucid bloom]

but hornet isn't really skinning them, more like they.. drop ragpelts and their corpse is normal?

[unique tangle]

That is where it gets weird

[lucid bloom]

oh yeah hornet is absolutely not normal. moving on,

i think some bugs just see other bugs as lesser

[frosty gate]

Bug society is weird here

In Hallownest all people were in tribes

[lucid bloom]

i think the citadel literally believes that a sapient race of bugs is okay to cage kill and eat.

[frosty gate]

Beasts were beasts, sentient bugs were sentient bugs

There was no inbetween

[lucid bloom]

they have no qualms about destroying whole kingdoms. why would they draw the line here?

[unique tangle]

No I think the line can be drawn, just cause the British empire colonized the world doesn’t mean they had no qualms about eating their enemies

Saying there is no line to be drawn just falls into a slippery slope, we should appeal to what we actually know

Rather than just say they’re evil

[lucid bloom]

they literally enslaved a whole race of flies. and the citadel didn't Just colonize and steal land, they fully wiped out entire species into extinction

[unique tangle]

And then cause they’re evil they’ll do all evil things

They do bad things yeah but there’s bad things they don’t do

It’s not helpful to not draw the line and actually define what they did vs what they didn’t do

[lucid bloom]

i think if they saw craw as beasts even if they weren't actually, they would eat them.

[unique tangle]

And yet they outcast Lugoli for being a cannibal

[lucid bloom]

lugoli was cooking them, i think that's the issue. like. whole pilgrims

[unique tangle]

And again we don’t actually have like proof of that

The craws are more of a grey zone

[lucid bloom]

fair, i'm just stating what I think though.

I'm not saying it's an objective fact.

[unique tangle]

But the citadel certainly don’t seem to be eating the citizens of Verdania or the ants

Mergwin’s recipe doesn’t have any sentient bugs in the mix

It’s more safe to say that the citadel seemed pretty normal about their food

[lucid bloom]

yeah, fair enough. It's still weird they ate bugs that could wield and use tools and have a court though

or at least lugoli did.

and the citadel caged them.

[frosty gate]

Wait, do we know which Craws did they do?

Was it the little ones?

Or the ones using tools?

[lucid bloom]

Hard to tell for the ones in the cages

looks to be the pin wielding ones yeah

[frosty gate]

Let me check that pic someone sent earlier

[lucid bloom]

all of them actually, squats and talls

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah that's straight up the chubby ones

[lucid bloom]

mhm!

[frosty gate]

Well, the Citadel isn't particularly moral

And I would say this is tame

[lucid bloom]

True..

[frosty gate]

It's just colonialisim

But without the working part

They're just exhibits

[lucid bloom]

yep!

[timid turtle]

Does lace die after fight 2???

I'm sad now

[heavy gyro]

This channel has a lot of spoilers so its better for you to not be here

[foggy fractal]

the answer would be ||no||

[timid turtle]

Im scared to click the spoiler

[foggy fractal]

so don't

[lone folio]

dont do it

go play the game

[timid turtle]

Ok 🙁

[lone folio]

dont be here

this place is spoiler land

[foggy fractal]

this channel has no spoiler rules

[lone folio]

destroyer of suprise

[foggy fractal]

we will tell it to you straight if you ask

[heavy needle]

Guys what do you think should be the final bosses of each pantheon if we get them

[frosty gate]

We're not getting the same layout of Pantheons hopefully

But if we are getting Final Bosses for the boss rush

I see Silken Sisters happening, a Lace + Phantom boss fight
Maybe "The First and the Last" making a First Sinner and Widow fight, or a Widow Prime fight

There's so much stuff they can do

Because they literally left so much open

[heavy needle]

That actually make sense but one of the fights I’m hoping for is either a seamstress or the pinstress in putrified ducts

[frosty gate]

We're defintely getting those

Although PD Pinstress might be for another DLC

And not a surprise bossfight during Boss Rush

[heavy needle]

Most likely I hope we get ducts pinstress for p1 seamstress for p2 and silken sisters for p3 then p4 is a harder version of like idk gms like idk maybe a boss called smtn like “the first thread” or maybe in a dlc we could get more info on lifeblood/plasmium

[stray fog]

What if we combine them

Sisters of battle style

Fighting the pinstress order

[heavy gyro]

Yeah pinstress boss fight was mid so they better improve it in dlcs

[echo moon]

I liked it

[heavy needle]

Same

[heavy gyro]

It was a bit too simple and easy for act 3 imo

[heavy needle]

Yeah it was lil underwhelming

[honest sun]

why sinner the first thing she did when getting out of her cage was weaving a dress, like, i dont think bugs dislike being naked

[echo moon]

it’s stuff we’ve seen before

so that does make it a little underwhelming

[heavy needle]

I love the field you fight pinstress though

[sinful nimbus]

Aura farming

[heavy needle]

Although it could’ve been improved like after you beat pinstress in her fight and then sentinel she would be in the room you fight sentinel and realize that the silkflys near the sentinels were the souls of the dead pinstress’

[frosty gate]

Weavers live dressed, so I guess they find it uncomfortable

Widow is the exception because insanity

[heavy needle]

Fr

Help me please Seth is trying to make me suffer is flea trials

[frosty gate]

There's no help to give you

Juggle those fleas like your life depends on it

The other two are actually easy

[honest sun]

also if weavers can (ig) bind silk like hornet and sinner, then why didnt widow? or herrah

[heavy needle]

I’m trying to do a beast crest only run btw and promised myself if I used any other crest besides beast I would delete my save

[unique tangle]

Widow’s silk is sealed

[heavy needle]

Wait herrah in a COMA could heal? Doesn’t that require being AWAKE

[unique tangle]

And herrah is just in a vague dream so we dunno if she did or didn’t

We don’t see herrah in a situation where she would need to use silk

[frosty gate]

The pins in her back are sealing her silk

[sinful nimbus]

the heck would herrah need to heal for

Actually yeah why didn't she fight back smh

Some "beast"

[honest sun]

wouldve been peak to fight herrah

or the dreamers

[frosty gate]

Herrah doesn't care

Monomon just accepts this is ok

Lurien should've fought but he's a wimp

Loser

[honest sun]

i wonder why not apart from caging hornet they sealed her silk too like widow

[frosty gate]

Because they needed to extract hornet's silk probably

We also don't know who pinned her

[frank dove]

Maybe bc knight is murdering her in her sleep

[frosty gate]

Herrah doesn't care about resisting, she's already dead

[honest sun]

nightmare

[frosty gate]

I think it's important to understand that the Dreamers are basically dead

You cannot wake them up

[honest sun]

if herrah can talk then pk can too right? i doubt he couldnt

[frosty gate]

They're sealed, once unsealed they die

[honest sun]

mom wake up i threw up

[honest sun]

its like my grandpa in coma

[frosty gate]

It's also important to understand that Herrah gives minus 10 shits about this whole thing and has no stake over this, she had a goal which was to have a child, she had and she doesn't care about Hallownest or the world

[cedar skiff]

some of herrahs wording during red memory kinda does imply she at least hoped hornet would seek out pharloom

“...Only if you resist them, you might see it, another hope... beyond...”

[frosty gate]

I think that Herrah is just telling her to be her own person

Since the Weavers wanted Hornet to be the Queen and take on Silk

"Those are their desires... not your own. Certainly not mine..."

"Resist them" means their desires

In other words

Don't become their Queen

[cedar skiff]

i think white ladys dialogue kinda echos this desire.

“Strength... in mind, in care, in claw. Strength enough that I may live to see a world better than our own, or to craft a world as I desire.
Hornet: That was the wish, of my mother, of my mentor, and of you...
...Indeed, spider... So much pain you must have passed to speak our hope so simply...”

herrah had likely hoped that hornet could free pharloom of tyranny rather than the weavers wish to either become queen of deepnest or return to pharloom

although i kinda dont believe the hallownest weavers ever wanted to return to pharloom

they fled for a reason

the ones that remained in pharloom died with the hope that someone would one day free it

[frosty gate]

"To see a world better than our own or to craft a world as I desire"

Once, again Herrah is just saying "Be your own person"

[lethal burrow]

give me vespa

[frosty gate]

Herrah was basically trying to be a good mother and tell Hornet to not do things because others tell her she should, but because she feels its right

[cedar skiff]

pantheons of hornets parents

you fight all of them with pk being p4

[frosty gate]

To not give in to desires of conquest and power

[lethal burrow]

she wears a carpet at least 💔

[frosty gate]

But to be herself

Which is what she does btw

The clear option given to her was "Become Weaver Queen"

But she says she doesn't want that and finds Hope beyond

[cedar skiff]

thats white lady dialogue but yeah

[lethal burrow]

jarrah

[cedar skiff]

i mean hornets exchange with wo

wl*

[frosty gate]

That's Hornet speaking of Herrah's words

[lethal burrow]

elder wo

[frosty gate]

That was the wish, of my mother, of my mentor, and of you...

[solar tapir]

but they does

[lethal burrow]

it's also unclear if the Weaver's left before grandmother silk was sealed or just after she began to wake up

[cedar skiff]

the dastardly retcon:

i feel like thats just the most blatant retcon instance because no matter how you twist it it doesnt work with the timeline

[lethal burrow]

I don't know that timeline is the problem. I think it just doesn't make sense like why go home specifically as opposed to anywhere else

[cedar skiff]

the weavers dillydallying towards pharloom just slowly enough for hornet to free it

[lethal burrow]

I think it's reasonable that they could've died on the way

Just cause they left for it doesn't mean they ever reached it

[frosty gate]

This conversation is so stupidly simple and people keep glossing over this

[cedar skiff]

tbh if team cherry had planned ahead i think it would have been fun if that dialogue foreshadowed the mass abduction of weavers

[frosty gate]

Weavers just left after Silk was sealed

They went back expecting the Citadel to be there

[cedar skiff]

itd be believable if literally anything in silksong hinted at this

[lethal burrow]

why would they do that though?

"Run until your strength exhausts"is not the type of thing you say if you're the de facto gods of your kingdom

[frosty gate]

Because all Weavers know that the Seal was not going to be permanent

[lethal burrow]

Where are you getting that that was clear to them from the very beginning though

what about the "naïve foundation"

[cedar skiff]

i dont even think it was about the seal not lasting i think they just realised that the act of keeping her sealed is basically an eternal torment nexus

i find that to be a more interesting reading

[frosty gate]

Plus we don't even know if they came back

THEY'RE NOT IN PHARLOOM

[lethal burrow]

So basically you think not all the Weavers were horrible People is the thing.

[frosty gate]

There's nothing in Pharloom

[cedar skiff]

eh i still think leaving the conductors to do the job knowing damn well its weight is morally dubious

[frosty gate]

Don't forget the slavery

[cedar skiff]

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

[solar tapir]

Where do the descriptions of amulets even come from? Maybe the description of the weaver song was made by some third person who doesn't really know where weavers fled after the infection

[frosty gate]

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

They also don't believe this is a permanent solution

[cedar skiff]

my reading used to be that they realised that keeping her sealed is service eternal and thats what the weavenest cindril rune harp was about. but them being the hallownest weavers is just fun so

[cedar skiff]

the only way to truly be free is for gms to fall

[lethal burrow]

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight. To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

Really makes it seem like it was only when the mother was starting to wake or before she was ever bound

[solar tapir]

it really looks like tc just forget about the charm and its description

we are left with fan interpretations

Bc it doesnt make sense

[unique canopy]

This is assuming they actually cared about being worshipped for its own sake, and not simply using it as the means to an end while desiring freedom as the true end. Not saying the bugs didn't worship them (effigies for example) but that was a tool the Weavers used to manipulate the bugs into sustaining the song. And that worship had its own side of "rule by fear" (Shellwood harp shrine) so they would've been afraid of the common bugs realizing they weren't divine and overthrowing them in turn. I think the Weavers overall wanted freedom more than anything else, everything else was just a tool to get what they truly wanted.

[cedar skiff]

the reason i like the idea that they came to a realisation that keeping her sealed is just being enslaved to her but with extra steps is because it fits narratively, but its also much more interesting than “ok they randomly realised shed wake up at some point. btw that some point is then a few hundred years later or so”.

i mean it’s essentially the same anyway but the realisation that they trapped themselves within a different kind of service hits harder than them believing their efforts are futile when the history shows they really werent up until the citadel bugs started taking silk crack.

[lethal burrow]

Great well even if they're not power hungry they're definitely hypocrites

[frosty gate]

I can't disagree with that, still.
Maybe they just wanted to check if things went to hell or not, "If we escaped once we can do it twice"

[lethal burrow]

I just can't square whether they flood before grandmother silk was bound or after she just started to wake up it seems like they're both equally likely and I can't figure it out

[cedar skiff]

their ultimate desire was indeed freedom

i think the citadel bugs being power fanatics is exactly why the citadel failed anyway

they didn’t understand the weight or history of the system set up to keep gms in place

they got blinded by power and the promise of immortality

[lethal burrow]

-# freedom from vague non-descriptive things which they were allegedly tasked to do by grandma silk

[frosty gate]

Fled

[lethal burrow]

Shut up, I have dyslexia

[frosty gate]

https://tenor.com/view/minor-spelling-mistake-gif-21179057

[lethal burrow]

[frosty gate]

Mb

[unique canopy]

Setting up the Citadel to keep GMS asleep still means they're bound to the Citadel and GMS. Getting the bugs to do that means they can flee as far away as possible for freedom.

[frosty gate]

And yet, they died

[cedar skiff]

the ambiguity is kinda weird but i believe the weavers were just extensions of gms will. she doesn’t rule directly she’s merely a controlling force without shit to control she cant do squat

[lethal burrow]

Then why did some of the Weavers not flea when the other ones did then?

[unique canopy]

But we also know through the shrines that they wanted someone to come back to take care of GMS permanently, and those shrines were ways to help empower that future person and guide them in taking care of GMS. So part of the fleeing would have been to seek out alternate means of doing that which they couldn't come up with solely in Pharloom.

[cedar skiff]

it just works incredibly well thematically

gms is quite literally an embodiment of a generational curse

[lethal burrow]

I have an idea, but just so we're all clear what was the express purpose of the Weaver tombs?

[frosty gate]

None

Just shrines

[lethal burrow]

they just did it for fun?

[frosty gate]

To keep their divine charade

[cedar skiff]

shrines that offer bugs around them protection anyway

[lethal burrow]

"sisters, spiders. let's go die and become mummys. It would be really funny."

[cedar skiff]

if anything it shows they werent utterly shitty rulers

[frosty gate]

Oh they were

They just had to pretend they werent

[cedar skiff]

i dont think they were quite as shitty as the conductors that came afterwards

[frank dove]

Nuh uh she is asleeeep

[lethal burrow]

It's not a high bar

[cedar skiff]

True….

[frosty gate]

They're pretty much the same type of bad

We are still unsure if Whiteward was Weavers or Conductors too

I vote Weavers

[cedar skiff]

it makes much more sense for it to be conductors

[lethal burrow]

alta has silk flys

[cedar skiff]

when the weavers left it likely made for a shortage of silk

[frosty gate]

And Whiteward has Weavenest architecture

[cedar skiff]

so itd make sense for them to try and set up a fucked up silk recycling mechanism

[lethal burrow]

aren't they drawing it from the cocoon?

[frank dove]

Where is that

[frosty gate]

That was the people down in the moors

[lethal burrow]

weavenest alta

[frosty gate]

So it seems

[cedar skiff]

i dont think the weavers would have any real reason to start harvesting silk from peoples corpses and injecting it into themselves

[frank dove]

???

The left one???

[frosty gate]

Wtf you on

They're doing the opposite

[lethal burrow]

there's only one alta

[cedar skiff]

is there rly any dialogue for this? because to me the cradle seemed untouched by the citadel

[frosty gate]

They're harvesting silk from other sources to inject it into Bugs

[frank dove]

Hm ok

[frosty gate]

If they do so, they prolong their lifespan and they keep the song going

[cedar skiff]

also, to the silkfly thing. a while back someone suggested that silkflies do happen naturally after death but the citadel wanted to take that to their advantage and thats why theres so much fucked up shit and i liked that idea soo

[lethal burrow]

Visually it is aparent that silk is being taken from the cocoon as silk is in a line coming from the cocoon being drawn downwards, and the whole cocoon is in a big spindle

[lethal burrow]

That's possible, but there's no evidence for it whatsoever so

[cedar skiff]

i just dont think itd make sense for them to do that

[stray fog]

I always wondered why the reapers needed to collect silk if they had gms herself

[cedar skiff]

narratively the citadel bugs becoming crazed for silk after the weavers left makes sense anyway

[unique canopy]

Collecting dregs from the waste so they can be reused.

[cedar skiff]

i do find it interesting that theres a silk heart down there

okay it would appear those mfs were really harvesting that giant cocoon

damn i see why gms was pissed

[frosty gate]

But they're not silk crazed

[cedar skiff]

looking back at pharlooms folly it does mention gms being bound in servitude

[frosty gate]

The Silk injecting thing can be explained easily by understanding that the Weavers really wanted to keep this shit going forever, even after their death.
Mizello was just a failed experiment

[cedar skiff]

“[] greedily shoving the Silk into their shells, the madness that overcame them, eternal life for mortal bugs!”

more accurately itd be obsessed with the idea of immortality and continuous servitude

[frosty gate]

Is that Caretaker?

[cedar skiff]

yeah

either way this also sort of implies it were the regular bugs who started this ordeal

rather than the weavers forcing it upon them

[lethal burrow]

I do think the underworks was not a thing when the Weavers were around, I don't think they would make a Weaver tomb in the underworks. I think the underworks was built around that.

[cedar skiff]

i feel like, if it were the weavers, itd be explicitly stated, because it would recontextualise some things

why would they need pilgrims to keep coming in anyway if they could just keep bugs alive eternally with their own silk

their whole religion was basically just to continually lure pilgrims in to do their bidding

[frosty gate]

I honestly think it was started by Weavers then it became a problem when they left

[lethal burrow]

The life cycle is that if you're dead and you don't come back, they cremate you and your drugs go down and come back up to be recycled... if you're old, you turn into a fly instead.

But what do you mean some people can just not come back? How's the deal with that?

[frosty gate]

I have to agree on this one, but it also doesn't make sense

[lethal burrow]

oh!

What makes you say so?

[frosty gate]

The Underworks are the foundation of the Citadel, it's what keeps it running

One would think its one of the first things they would make

[lethal burrow]

It's what keeps the conductor stuff running

[cedar skiff]

it could be that they wanted the conductors to eternally take up their mantle and it only became a problem when the regular citadel bugs joined in

[lethal burrow]

I don't know that it supported anything that existed while the Weavers were in charge

[frosty gate]

They even appointed the Architects

[cedar skiff]

it would for sure be an interesting take

[lethal burrow]

I don't see what the architects have to do with it exactly

[frosty gate]

Architects are the ones who probably made Underworks, right? At least that what it seems

[lethal burrow]

Oh yeah, I never thought about that but that probably makes sense

I don't see why the architects can't come after the Weavers though

[frosty gate]

Weavers made the Architects

[lethal burrow]

Where do you get that from?

[cedar skiff]

its not explicit that they made them but 12 says something about their skills being learned from the weavers

“An Architect's work owes much to the art of the f-f-first children. They set expert standard for the tools and talents of Pharloom eternal.”

[lethal burrow]

well, yeah, but that could just be explained by the fact that the weavenests exist in the citadel that was created by the Weavers to begin with

[cedar skiff]

did the weavers also teach the architects how to edit the silksong wiki?

[frosty gate]

I don't want this to sound condescending but I get that from Sense

It makes no sense Conductors made them, I've heard that said before

[lethal burrow]

ah i see i see, it was the star signs that aligned and told you

[frosty gate]

First Architect made Sentinels, Sentinels brought people to the Citadel to work or sing

[lethal burrow]

how about the first architect was just a regular bug and they came up with the cool stuff maybe based off of Weaver stuff maybe not.

The conductors didn't come up with the stuff, but they might've ordered it to happen

there is that commandment about ordering the final form of metal and cog so it seems like the conductors did order the robots to exist

[frosty gate]

First Architect made sentinels, the Weavers definitely were there for that

[cedar skiff]

ok ok hold on there may be a way to timeline this

[lethal burrow]

I don't understand how the sentinels correlate to the Weavers

[unique canopy]

Why I think the Underworks were made after when the Citadel became more gilded is that in the Underworks you can see a bunch of the old stone foundation, and in some areas you can see the old stone pilgrim effigies but they've been defaced.

[cedar skiff]

if only there was a way to figure out if the pinstress were betrayed by the citadel under weavers

[lethal burrow]

That is a good catch and it's also interesting. I have no idea what to make of it.

[lethal burrow]

The chorus seemed to indicate it was a no

at least I don't think the pin sisters are as old as the Weavers and have lived since then.

[frosty gate]

If the First Architect was appointed by Weavers

[cedar skiff]

well if the sentinels were made in pinstress image after their betrayal… and very old architect made the sentinels

[lethal burrow]

well, if they were.

I don't know that they were though.

[frosty gate]

And Sentinels were made by the First Architect to bring people into the Citadel

[unique canopy]

You can make out that the defacing looks like the stylized harp logo that the Citadel uses. So it was likely done to keep the underworkers obedient to the Citadel as the Underworks was expanded using the old stone areas as its foundation.

[cedar skiff]

https://tenor.com/view/ihykeon-math-spongebob-fish-sponge-plus-star-equals-clam-gif-24207116

[lethal burrow]

You're gonna have to spell it out I'm sorry

[frosty gate]

Twelfth said this

That heart is an inspired form, conceived by the first of my line for a knight of cog and blade.

[lethal burrow]

neat

[frosty gate]

When showing her the Cogheart

They were made by First Arch

[lethal burrow]

The sentinels were made by the first architect. I don't understand how that correlates to the first architect being appointed by the Weavers though.

[frosty gate]

Why wouldn't they?

It's the three factions, Architects, Conductors and Vaultkeepers

[lethal burrow]

I'm asking why you can't just say why not

[frosty gate]

2 of them are appointed by Weavers, why would the third be different?

[lethal burrow]

What are you talking about?

Oh, the three big things yeah OK

hold on the vault keepers were by the Weavers? Am I forgetting that? Where is that said?

[cedar skiff]

im saying the architects could have been made after the weavers left. hold on let me cook.

if the pinstress cant recall the weavers (doesnt comment on hornet being one iirc), it must mean the sentinels were made after they left. and the first architect made them soo.

not sure how this could help the timelining but its an observation

[unique canopy]

Twelfth specifically says the Architects are supposed to obey the Weavers, not just the Citadel itself.

Then on your r-r-request, Bug-Red, as directive demands, for Pharloom's first children, a-a-a-and our kingdom-eternal, I shall serve. I shall c-c-craft.

[cedar skiff]

interestingly enough its highlighted the sentinels were made before cogwork core

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, OK fair enough

[cedar skiff]

ok i mean damn its right there

[lethal burrow]

it does beg the question why the Weavers would be so interested in the cog stuff tho

Since it was the conductors who decreed that the robots should be a thing

[frosty gate]

Gkkkt. But this one was taught. It shall fold its claws. It shall pass its knowledge, as much as is gleaned.
Only to a first child, must a Vaultkeeper defer.

That's Cardi

[cedar skiff]

who the fuck even made the part of the cradle lace chills in

[orchid pine]

Doesn’t the guy in whispering vaults mention something about working under the weavers?

[cedar skiff]

gms is so kind for forcing bugs to build a bed for her daughter

[lethal burrow]

if it has gold, you can count on it being the conductors if it has stone, you can count on it being the Weavers but intended for pilgrims, and if it has weave nest stuff, you can count on it being weaver only

[unique canopy]

Weavers were interested in anything and everything that could either keep GMS asleep or sever her hold on them permanently. Automated cogwork machinery could keep the song going without needing mortal fallible bugs prone to sickness and death.

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, but it's odd that the order was only given by the time of the conductors if that's the case though

[frosty gate]

Wdym the conductors decreed the thing

[lethal burrow]

"And lo, is eternity sustained. By Architect's claw, we welcome that final form, of dial and rotor, and soul gladly given."

Isn't this them ordering the construction of the robots?

[unique canopy]

Possible they just hadn't advanced the level of technology enough yet, even though Weaver knowledge formed the basis. Kinda like Da Vinci drawing schematics for a bunch of stuff that couldn't be made in his day because of the limited technology of his day. They needed the advanced mining and metallurgy of the Deep Docks first.
Also possible there was a window where the Conductors served to carry out the will of the Weavers directly before being handed total control later, but that's adding further wrinkles to timeline analysis.

[frosty gate]

That's the Core

It's been a while

[unique canopy]

By Architect's claw, we welcome CogCoin

[pale narwhal]

<@&283547423706447872>

[radiant badger]

Working on a hollow knight world map. Making some layers rn but if you got any suggestions or know lore that might change this tell me

[lethal burrow]

I mean, you're basically making this up so do whatever you want, man

[radiant badger]

I want it lore accurate, its gonna be massive, got alot of expieriece too

[lethal burrow]

OK, well if you're open to critique the land of higher beings isn't a thing since 90% of them are physical. The nightmare Rome the dream realm are separate, but that's probably better indicated by putting a barrier between them as opposed to a big gap.

I don't know why you put sand sea above the surface and wastes are at varying levels, including the surface, not all wastes is surface, but not the other way around.

[lethal burrow]

this is a cool map by the way, I don't know what to what end do you plan on implementing it but it's neat

[radiant badger]

I'll figure something out hold on

[radiant badger]

I plan to impliment all my maps, i have tons

[lethal burrow]

Define implement though

[radiant badger]

Add them,

[lethal burrow]

ike alter the entire map of the game actually

New rooms and all that?

[radiant badger]

I'll add new connections to new area's so slightly.

[solemn hinge]

I hope they explicitly state that Lace is a child in DLC ngl

[sinful nimbus]

they did it in the base game too

[unique canopy]

DLC starts with Hornet leaving her at Songclave to be babysat by Sherma.

[lean temple]

Interesting

[lean temple]

They already have multiple times. It's not their fault when people are dense

[solemn hinge]

Yeah but like, explicitly explicitly

They need to rename her to John child

[lean temple]

We need that skong reddit ama

[sinful nimbus]

Lace turns to the camera and says "I'm 4 years old!!!!"

[lean temple]

Man when are TC gonna hire Star fr

[sinful nimbus]

That's basically what she does in the Cradle really people just really like lacenet

[solemn hinge]

No 🙏

[ornate pier]

Sherma age discourse

[solemn hinge]

Sherma age discourse is much more based because like

I could totally see him being like, an old teenager or a young adult

Probably the latter but idgaf tbh

[ornate pier]

Yeah the game doesn't directly comment on it

I do think he es probably a kid. Maybe late teens at most. But it's way less clear

[unique canopy]

He's young enough that they do the "hire a woman to voice a boy" thing, other than that it's whatever.

[ornate pier]

Could just have a high voice?

[solemn hinge]

She fa ri on my du la till I si ma net

[sinful nimbus]

Wasn't goku also voice acted by a girl

I don't think I would read into it that much

[unique canopy]

Yeah but in Goku's case she started when Goku was a boy and only kept the role after timeskips for consistency.

[sinful nimbus]

Ic

[solemn hinge]

Yeah, and was only voiced by a woman in the English dub when he was a kid

[unique canopy]

Dragonball seiyuu discourse makes Lace age discourse look tame.

[solemn hinge]

Dragon ball what

[unique canopy]

Voice actors for the original Japanese version

[silk dirge]

i mean isnt ash in pokemon voiced by a woman

or atleast i remember smth like that

[solemn hinge]

He is also a child

[silk dirge]

yeah

like sherma

[solemn hinge]

Maybe

[lean temple]

He does seem naive and innocent to a degree so I think he is rather young, maybe old teenager as you said

[unique canopy]

You want to launch a grenade in the room, just find a Dragonball community and ask them their opinions on Granny Goku. There will be bloodshed.

[lean temple]

He is attempting the pilgrimage so he can't be too young

[solemn hinge]

Sherma could just be a small dude but I don’t find it unlikely that he’s a child either

[silk dirge]

where is bros parents

[silk dirge]

he could be like a dude who ran away from home

also sherma was being taught misinfo bro still thinks greymoor has food

revoke that schools certification

[unique canopy]

Parents could have left, and been subsequently Haunted, so he decided to join them in the blessed Citadel, though if that was the case you'd expect him to mention that. Could also be an orphan for the same reason.

[solemn hinge]

Sherma trusted the proper gander 😔

[silk dirge]

or he could be like the act 4 video

hes a god in disguise using us to eliminate any possible competition to him

[solemn hinge]

I kinda doubt any DLC that continues from a story perspective won’t be after Act 3

[silk dirge]

i think pharloom bay + lab will be during act 3

but steel city will be post probably

[lean temple]

Hornet calls him "little one" but it could be cuz he's smol

[solemn hinge]

Though I do think having Weaver Queen Hornet as the final boss of the “pantheon” would be baller

[silk dirge]

the real discourse is lace or sherma younger

[solemn hinge]

I mean, obviously lace is but mentally… idk?

[lean temple]

Not sure

[ornate pier]

Wouldn't lace be chronologically older

But mentally younger or around the same

[lean temple]

She is chronologically older

[hidden crater]

meanwhile the knight in the background cheering as hornet gets near the end of P5 (shes gonna have to do all bindings soon)

[lethal burrow]

erm, just because she calls him little doesn't mean he's actually small. She could just be insulting him after all.

[lean temple]

Quirrel is also a repeat insulter then

[unique canopy]

That would actually be a funny justification for a Pantheon DLC. Knight is bored and wants big sis to test herself. You see the Shades cheering on in the background like the Grimm audience as Hornet gets progressively more annoyed.

[dreamy onyx]

I feel like if they did a final boss it'd definitely be Shade Lord

[solemn hinge]

That would be much more lame thematically

[lean temple]

Shadelord doesn't make sense as a boss. They save Hornet

[hidden crater]

and if you fail a pantheon run, once you get up you'll get tomatoes thrown at you by an angry mob of shades

[lean temple]

It could be Lost GMS or whatever

[solemn hinge]

That would be lame, I want it to be Weaver Queen Hornet

[hidden crater]

mild argument over the last slice of pizza

[lean temple]

They have no reason to fight

[lean temple]

Oh wait who's the protagonist?

[ornate pier]

Mild argument over the last slice of pizza

[hidden crater]

that last slice hits hard

[lean temple]

Um actually they don't need to eat

[hidden crater]

they do in the eyes of the community

[dreamy onyx]

Pantheons aren't always about sense. I doubt the Nailmasters would attack the Knight but it happens in the Pantheon

[hidden crater]

the fact that people thought vessels ate with their eyes was kinda funny

[solemn hinge]

Make it like, an introspective fight where she’s trying to come to terms with the innate desire to rule that she has

[lean temple]

It's a duel. They bow in respect after you beat them.

[lethal burrow]

I'm pretty happy with whatever they come up with for unique pantheon bosses as long as they don't do the pin sisters cause that is something they pretty much already did

[lean temple]

All three would be cool

[solemn hinge]

All three at once

[lean temple]

Pretty interesting ig

[lean temple]

Sisters of the Pin

[hidden crater]

-# and groal the great

[dreamy onyx]

My Godhome wishlist

Bell Eater with a third phase
Pinstress and Seamstress
Putrified Ducts Pinstress
Empowered Fourth Chorus
Empowered Widow (with her own Silk and Mask)
Empowered Groal the Great (he'd be called Stilking Groal)
Empowered Clover Dancers
Vespa
Empowered Grandmother Silk
Lord of Shades

[ornate pier]

Groal when he was clean and also not fat

No soul

[lean temple]

Stilking is clever

[ornate pier]

Have ts as a memory boss

Non hearts memory bosses will be added in a dlc!!!

[dreamy onyx]

Thank you thank you

[hidden crater]

vespa 100% throwing hands harder then any boss in the whole game

[ornate pier]

Fight four choruses at once in pantheon of pharloom

[lean temple]

She needs to

[solemn hinge]

Bring back Hive Knight so they can confirm he and Hornet banged

[hidden crater]

first, second, third and fourth chorus
-# and savage beastfly

[ornate pier]

Personally i like the idea of melody holders as pantheon bosses a lot

[lean temple]

Tho the reconstructed fight isn't too great

[ornate pier]

In pantheon of pharloom twelfth architect fights alongside the other eleven architects!!!!

[dreamy onyx]

Genuinely I wonder how they're going to balance the Pantheon because it's already stressful enough in the original game. Imagine how difficult it'll be in Silksong

[lethal burrow]

pray for fourth chorus where it uses more than a single hand at a time

[lean temple]

You're gonna run out of red tools

[hidden crater]

throwing 1 cogfly ends the whole fight

[solemn hinge]

I think it’s best if they give you a certain amount of Shell Shards per bench, but limit you to only using that many

[dreamy onyx]

Already 40+ bosses and there'll likely be more, and also arena modifications like the original game

[ornate pier]

There's gonna be more due to dlc

Maybe enough to justify 6 pantheons

[lethal burrow]

there doesn't need to be a pantheon with every boss. They should've ended it at pantheon 4 originally anyway.

that doesn't need to be a super combination 😭

[solemn hinge]

Eh, I kinda disagree there

[hidden crater]

if this shit happens to me in pantheon of pharloom im quitting the game

[solemn hinge]

P5 is fun

[ornate pier]

No there needs to be for hype moments and aura

Shut uppp

Also for alt fights

[dreamy onyx]

64 boss pantheon of pharloom

[solemn hinge]

They should make a variant of Shakra where she and Hornet make out at the end

[wise sand]

But it's the last slice tho

[hidden crater]

a whole stack

[lethal burrow]

pantheon of pharloom where brood mother is before absolute gms

[lean temple]

I wonder how much more difficult DLC bosses will be. Karms and LLace are already tough

[hidden crater]

the ultra secret ending where you bring a delicate flower all the way back from hallownest to shakra

[lethal burrow]

what is something they could alter about a boss battle to make one of the bosses in the game as bad as R markoth

[ornate pier]

Anyways craggler and huge flea will be in this

Mark my words

[wise sand]

TWO savage beastflies at once

[lean temple]

Choir Beastfly who summons the entire High Halls arena

[dreamy onyx]

Lord of Shades and Grand Mother Silk in her prime

[unique canopy]

Savage Beastfly in Nyleth's arena

[wise sand]

Savage bilefly

[hidden crater]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKx8AxxBnFQ nah its gonna be some shit like this

[lean temple]

Plasmified Voided Mucked Beastfly

[ornate pier]

Also I think the entrance to this should be in the memorium

[wise sand]

Two savage beastflies at once genuinely might happen

[ornate pier]

Idk I guess it's because I think it should be elegy and memorium fits

[hidden crater]

a third savage beastfly in memorium

savage beastfly for every area in the whole game

[solemn hinge]

Will they make voided variants the Ascended ones

[wise sand]

Probably not