sk-lore

[trail wasp]

I'm unsure what the topic was

[vestal swan]

Because we want the answer it's not that difficult

[muted lantern]

the definition of higher being is vague af in general

hell karmelita could be one

[desert mango]

Yeah, but if she is a higher being, the lore remains the same, and if she isn’t, the lore remains the same

This isn’t the void debate, where the answer has large overarching impacts on the lore

[vestal swan]

She's not one and it would change

[trail wasp]

No real gain from knowing if she's a higher being

[pale narwhal]

is the pale wyrm not a higher being

[desert mango]

This is just a simple title

[lime osprey]

Sure, but the creatures that are higher beings are no where near vaguely one. Every confirmed higher being is so clearly above Hornet and the vessels and that’s not debatable

[trail wasp]

that is not a given

[desert mango]

How so?

[vestal swan]

If you don't want to be part of a conversation stop participating in it?

[desert mango]

Right back at you

[lime osprey]

This guy man

[vestal swan]

I'm having the conversation you're bitching about it

Yove said nothing but repeatedly ask why the conversation matters

[desert mango]

I’m simply asking why it matters enough to insult others over

[vestal swan]

Speak on the topic or don't speak

[trail wasp]

It's hinted and stated that Pale King was a higher being, but I'm guessing people are arguing that either isn't true, or that Hornet can't be a higher being by being an offspring of one

[desert mango]

I am speaking on the topic. I’m asking why we’re insulting each other over it when it’s inconsequential

[vestal swan]

The pale King is definitely a higher being

[trail wasp]

:/ I'm not

[desert mango]

You’re fine

[trail wasp]

I feel like the only two people causing issues are you and tanco

[vestal swan]

People are arguing that hornet is because ???

[trail wasp]

THE MADNESS

[desert mango]

People are arguing that Hornet isn’t because ???

[lime osprey]

Hornet isn’t a higher being just BY being born by one. She inherited powers and attributes from her higher being father, however is not one. Like how the Weavers were granted the affinity for silk like GMS but are not higher beings themselves

[desert mango]

There has been evidence given by both sides, so don’t pretend one isn’t providing any

[lime osprey]

There is no evidence from your side, you’re just saying “but why can’t she be” over and over

[vestal swan]

It's not evidence, people incorrectly claiming pale is a higher being thing, and then blatantly misreading a dialogue where she is called higher but not higher being and then claiming that the other was said is not evidence

[muted lantern]

tho tbf it does seem like hornet only becomes what would be considered a god after consuming gms, i don't really think we should be brushing off zi caller her higher as well tho.

[desert mango]

You haven’t been reading anything me or the others have said if you think that, Tanco

[trail wasp]

Higher is a very distinct wording from Zi, I do think it is a worthy inclusion

[desert mango]

Just because you think a piece of evidence is dismissible doesn’t mean everyone in the room does

You’re a mod, aren’t you supposed to be respectful to all parties unless they’re being disrespectful back? I’ll admit I might have been disrespectful a few times, but the others?

[vestal swan]

Zi does not understand the world outside of the steel city and I don't trust her judgment about hornet even if she was suggesting that she is a higher being, she assumes that everybody has a master and should be fearful of disobeying that master.

[lime osprey]

The only evidence in this entire ordeal is Zi calling her higher, this doesn’t prove the vessels or lace are firstly, and secondly, they doesn’t prove Hornet is, especially seeing how she separates herself from true higher beings, and are clearly nowhere near them in terms of power

[desert mango]

Respect their contributions, that’s what I’m saying at this stage

[vestal swan]

It's not respecting or disrespecting a contribution to say that I don't think something is true

[desert mango]

You’re saying the evidence being provided isn’t evidence. That’s very disrespectful in my opinion

[vestal swan]

No it's not it's called dismissing something that's not accurate

[desert mango]

How is it not accurate?

[vestal swan]

Am I supposed to shake their hand and agree just because they presented something

I've stated many times why it's not accurate

[desert mango]

Then state it again because clearly I missed it apparently

[lime osprey]

Hornet undoubtedly has attributes that bugs would describe as “divine,” her ability to change her nature, her proficiency with silk, her ability to reap soul from other bugs, etc.

That does not make her a higher being

[vestal swan]

Normal bugs also worshiped weavers and called them divine, there's also some worshiping a pile of fire and a dead bug is roasting inside

[desert mango]

Then who are we to determine what is or isn’t a higher being then, based on this logic?

[lime osprey]

Good thing the game does that for you

[limpid summit]

The only metric we have for determining higher beings are bugs that “exist above all others” or are confirmed by Team Cherry or the game

[desert mango]

The way I see it, a character with clear wisdom and experience, with knowledge that we the players do not have, nor Hornet most likely, called her higher. That means something

[limpid summit]

Thus, there are 7 definite ones:
PK, WL, Rad, NMH, Unn, LoS, GMS
And a couple other likely ones

[desert mango]

Not to mention the whole “born of two higher beings” thing that the vessels have going on

[muted lantern]

I mean i just don't see why we are so quickly disregarding her being referred to as higher multiple times by zi, like i don't think thats something that should be wholly ignored, not to say it confirms her as a higher being, but why zi calls her that feels a bit relevant.

[vestal swan]

Extraordinary and powerful abilities that basically nobody else has, like creating half a nation's worth of plants and bugs out of a magical element, or magically mind-tapping an entire region, or control over an element nobody else can even safely interact with

[vestal swan]

They probably would have been higher beings if they were alive, but they're dead

[limpid summit]

^this
Hornet doesn’t “exist above all others” and Team Cherry was careful to make that the metric

[lime osprey]

I’m crying, this just straight up proves them wrong lol. Vessels and Hornet are not in here if you can’t see @desert mango

[limpid summit]

I think that might honestly refer to bugs of higher thought than Zi, like how PK called the bugs uplifted by the beacon higher beings in his tablets. Steel constructs like Zi and Jinn are limited in thought so Hornet would appear higher to them

[muted lantern]

I don't really recall if the game confirms or denies which characters are higher or not all the time, like unn is generally considered a higher being by fans, is she called one in the base game?

[lime osprey]

Yes the game does this repeatedly

[vestal swan]

Zi is basically a slave to the masters as much as the vassels are, she fears disobeying a single order. Anybody with free will would be higher than her, but also her just not understanding the outside world makes a ton of sense

[desert mango]

Let it be noted, “higher beings like radiance and wyrm and root”. As in similar to them. The like there strongly implies that there are different levels to it. They are answering the question the way it was asked, not in an all-encompassing way

[lethal burrow]

What are we arguing about today?

[vestal swan]

Nothing about that implies that there's a level to any of this

[trail wasp]

This does feel like just rude behavior

[vestal swan]

It's an above or below thing

Yes or no checkbox

[desert mango]

How so?

[strange bronze]

Is Hornet a higher being?

[muted lantern]

whether hornet is a higher being ig

[limpid summit]

The game does not confirm Unn nor Nightmare Heart as higher beings but we can pretty easily assume they are

[muted lantern]

when does the game call unn a higher being? its been a while since i played

[trail wasp]

yea, higher being assumptions are very common

[limpid summit]

Neither does it “explicitly” confirm Lord of Shades is one but Bardoon basically says so

No one treats Hornet like a god walking amongst bugs, just a powerful bug with the lineage of gods

[desert mango]

This

No one was arguing she’s on the same level as a god

It was being said that she’s still considered godly, while not being a god herself

That’s all. I feel like that was pretty obvious, but it needs to be said I guess

[vestal swan]

If that was the point that was being made it wouldn't be having this conversation

People were outright calling her a higher being

[trail wasp]

Does Higher Being require a power level of some sort?

[muted lantern]

shes a hired being? good for her, she needs a job to pay those bench prices

[vestal swan]

Not a level of power but basically an exclusive one

[desert mango]

Hollowniner with the real questions

[midnight zinc]

Hornet is canonically unemployed at the start of the game

[lethal burrow]

she regards herself as one at least,

mask maker: "it is a rare want of your caste to serve us mortal bugs."
hornet: "I am not my kin, Maker. I have seen enough pain born of their dominion. As much as I may, I choose to stand apart"

hornet speaking to green prince: "You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."

nor does hornet challenge the claim of zi repeatedly calling her a "creature higher"

Now whether you think she's correct about her self evaluation is another conversation, but she seems to regard herself among their few.

[trail wasp]

Higher and Pale Beings are different it seems

[lethal burrow]

correct!

[muted lantern]

funnily enough im applying to jobs while messaging here

[limpid summit]

Hornet seems to have pale being lineage but higher being lineage doesn’t exist

[desert mango]

Hornet definitely prefers to think of herself as a common bug rather than some hoighty-toighty princess

[limpid summit]

It’s not a thing you pass down

[vestal swan]

HBs: PK, UNN, NMH, SL, GMS Nyleth,MM and WL for some reason
Maybes: LBB, Hornet after eating GMS, Greyroot after eating Hornet and GMS

I feel like I still forget one

[muted lantern]

so theres generally a difference between what pk calls higher beings and what is considered higher beings by the actual lore no?

[lethal burrow]

I will note that only the green print dialogue is related to talking about pale beings and that's within the context of grand silk. The other two are in reference to higher beings as far as I'm aware.

[midnight zinc]

I think this has to do with allusions from Zi and other characters that she has the capability to step into a godly leadership role like her father but actively chooses not to

[muted lantern]

like i assume the signs arent talking to like new gods coming to hallownest

[desert mango]

Again you’re stating that all higher beings must be of an extreme level of power. This is stated nowhere in the games

[midnight zinc]

Get your bag king 🔥

[desert mango]

There are levels.

[vestal swan]

There are not levels and I'm not stating that they need a certain amount of power what

[muted lantern]

we need a scouter to check unns power level

[lethal burrow]

yeah, she says she chooses to stand apart, but that is indirect contrast to her previously saying "I am not my kin" as in "although they are my kin, I choose differently from them."

[desert mango]

There are absolutely levels to it. And please stop reacting to my messages with “no” emotes, it’s very condescending

[lime osprey]

All of these beings absolutely gap the vessels and Hornet in terms of power and abilities though, like, you do realize that Hornet is closer to a normal bug than she is a higher being

[limpid summit]

“For some reason” 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️

[desert mango]

Ok, try it now. Note I’m only doing that to stop you from acting condescending towards me

[limpid summit]

We ALL know why

[vestal swan]

Nyleth has feats man WL is just there

[lethal burrow]

"is hornet a higher being" mfs when you ask them what a higher being is

[limpid summit]

WL has so many feats if you just think a little bit

[desert mango]

Right?

[vestal swan]

If me disagreeing and telling you something is wrong is me condescending to you then you shouldn't be in this conversation where people are constantly going to correct you

[midnight zinc]

Exactly. I think just like HK dlc involves the knight becoming a much more powerful being than before, some ss dlc might show her embracing her pale lineage and sort of pulling a reverse Pale King, shedding her bug form for a grander one.

[dense willow]

is the knight a higher being bc of the "higher being s these words are for you alone" tablets?

[limpid summit]

Like no I wouldn’t try and assign growth powers to her if she wasn’t repeatedly confirmed as an HB and it’s ridiculous for her not to have an established powerset

[vestal swan]

TK only becomes a higher being with the void heart

[limpid summit]

Team Cherry showed as much as they wanted to show

[trail wasp]

I mean, being a Higher Being doesn't really require people to do amazing feats. Maybe the WL did something, but as @vestal swan points out, there's nothing that states one can just not be doing something all powerful

[desert mango]

They’re a higher being because they were born of two higher beings. It’s kinda just genetics

[limpid summit]

Ehhh

BV isn’t a higher being neither is THK

They’re a higher being from VH as powdered said

[muted lantern]

im still confused by the higher beings these words are for you alone, is pk just working on a different definition of higher beings?

[lime osprey]

WL reached out through dream across kingdoms to reach Hornet despite being binded, this ability is so profoundly beyond the reach of the vessels and Hornet and common bugs i think she earns her spot, also the Godseekers detect her power even through her bindings.

[lethal burrow]

How do you know?

[dense willow]

then why can they read the tablet at the start of the game, or is it just another instance of pk being wrong?

[vestal swan]

White lady did not reach out that is hornet's memory

[limpid summit]

What about them puts them above all others

[midnight zinc]

While I agree with this, it’s curious that they’re still not considered bugs in their normal form. “Not bug, nor beast, nor god”. Not divine, but certainly not normal.

[desert mango]

Being born of two higher beings

[limpid summit]

Perhaps the biological children of PK and WL may have naturally been higher beings but we’d never know

[lethal burrow]

any character in the game can be wrong if people outside of the it have interpretations that disagree with what's in the game

[limpid summit]

The vessels are corpses with a few interesting powers

[desert mango]

If two humans do the dirty, does that not make a human?

[vestal swan]

They are not because they are corpses

[limpid summit]

Regular vessels are weaker than something like a snail shaman

[lime osprey]

The White Lady appears herself in the Red memory.

[vestal swan]

It's hornets memory

[limpid summit]

White lady does reach out

[trail wasp]

It's unclear

[lime osprey]

First as memory then again as herself

[midnight zinc]

I fail to see why they wouldn’t. Hornet is only half higher being and she’s basically already there and really chooses to not be one

[lethal burrow]

Why do we think a higher being has something to do with power?

[desert mango]

It’s not exclusively a power thing

[vestal swan]

She's remembering the white lady

[trail wasp]

we can't take either as fact

[dense willow]

humans are not gods, nor do they put their children in the void before they are born

[limpid summit]

It’s not you’re right but what puts it above others

[trail wasp]

it is hinted WL is talking directly

[lime osprey]

She reaches out through the memory

[muted lantern]

arent higher beings the ones that smoke the most weed?

[charred nimbus]

Idk, i'm also on the team that says White lady was present there

[limpid summit]

Their focus? Snail Shamans, Godseekers can focus in different ways

[trail wasp]

but there's nothing really beyond that

[desert mango]

Being born of royalty

[limpid summit]

Corpse

[lime osprey]

The dialogue literally makes no sense if that is not her there

[desert mango]

Still born of royalty

[vestal swan]

They are aborted they are not born of to higher beings, the game states this very clearly like three times

[limpid summit]

A vessel wasn’t born of royalty

[desert mango]

Yes it was

[trail wasp]

They're actually the ones who can use the ladder the most

[lethal burrow]

Does the pale king stop being a higher being when he's dead?

[muted lantern]

also nobody ever answered if the game calls unn a higher being in text or it's just assumed, i genuinely don't remember

[limpid summit]

WL speaks to Hornet in the present- once Hornet stands the text boxes change to present tense

[vestal swan]

Vessels were never born properly

[midnight zinc]

Unn is insanely stoner coded

[limpid summit]

She’s reaching out through the dream

[lethal burrow]

Define a proper birth and define your reasoning for why something that is dead cannot be a higher being

[trail wasp]

Vessels were spawn in the egg, then the egg got corrupted

[muted lantern]

mr mushroom is a higher being after he rockets away, he continues to be one until he lands

[limpid summit]

Vessels are not the children they are a different creature
A dead pale king is a dead pale king

[desert mango]

I’m interested in the response to this

[vestal swan]

They were aborted and replaced with void insides, the God child that would be never existed

[lime osprey]

“Wrest it from this remembrance. Burn yourself free from our sad fate...” she is there bro

[limpid summit]

The Collector is not the Love Key Bug

[trail wasp]

"Oh, excuse me."

[dense willow]

i think that is hornet reachingn back, and i may be misremembering, but i dont think the wl replies (again i may be wrong)

[limpid summit]

She does iirc

[lethal burrow]

So what about that? Makes them not higher beings though is it the void

[midnight zinc]

Yes

[limpid summit]

It’s no text box memory dialogue until Hornet talks and then she gets the real time text box dialogue

WL is speaking in real time

[vestal swan]

It's the fact that they are dead and never attained any qualities to be a higher being and the thing moving the body is not a higher being, "vessels" are void in a meat suit. They aren't the kid

[muted lantern]

is fayforn a higher bieng?

[limpid summit]

0 feats

[muted lantern]

or just birdy

[limpid summit]

Besides killing weavers I guess

[vestal swan]

Fluffy bird creature

[desert mango]

Gimme a sec here, I wanna check something

[lime osprey]

We dont know

[midnight zinc]

The void in its base form is not a higher being, it’s more like a force of nature that ironically opposes all life, and also pale beings or beings of light. The vessels are more void beings than pale beings, as the Voidheart represents their true nature, which is the void beneath their shells.

[limpid summit]

Glidey Glidey Glidey

[muted lantern]

also is unn ever called a higher being?

[limpid summit]

Not explicitly

[midnight zinc]

No but she is one 100%

[limpid summit]

But creating an entire physical realm from her dreams puts her firmly above other creatures

[vestal swan]

Unn is given a guest room in Godhome and she has creation feats

[dense willow]

they have the essence particle things

[limpid summit]

Grey Prince Zote 💔

[muted lantern]

why are we talking feats are we powerscaling

[lime osprey]

She is called a higher mind and gaps every other bug in terms of abilities and has her own allure that inspires devotion in bugs. She created life and bug and mind from dream. She is a higher being

[limpid summit]

Feats are the metric of higher beings

Even non combat feats that can place creatures above all others

That’s why MM might be one even though he doesn’t fight

[trail wasp]

Apparently Higher Beings are measured in feats

unsure where this was stated

[vestal swan]

It's not a scaling situation it's a qualification thing, they need something exclusive and supernatural compared to most creatures to qualify, because that's what all the ones we know have.. besides white lady for some reason

[lime osprey]

And yes, the godseekers see her power through her sleep and diminishing

[midnight zinc]

Feats aside, her presence in Pantheon 5 being represented the same way as the White Lady and Pals King is telling enough, she’s a higher being

[limpid summit]

How else do you measure whether someone exists above all others

[muted lantern]

i mean wl presumably is responsible for like, the thorns and such. maybe queens gardens but that seems like unn stuff

[limpid summit]

WL’s one indisputable canonical feat is easily evading Godseeker attunement even while bound this places her above someone like Hornet who acknowledges the fight but can’t just shrug it off

[trail wasp]

...then it feels like that's a flawed reasoning if one of the ones we clearly know doesn't have those attributes

[lime osprey]

The WL has one singular feat, also her children can clearly control soul, way beyond the ability of just a wyrm and common bug offspring

[midnight zinc]

The real question is, is the lifeblood creature a higher being, and is it the only source of lifeblood, and if it’s not one or either of those things, then wtf is it?

[desert mango]

Ok, I’m back. I looked up times when miscarriages happened for royalty (a morbid thing to add to my search history but whatever). Typically the title of prince or princess was given after they were born. So with this in mind, one can say that by a technicality, the vessels are not royalty. This still leaves the higher being thing up in the air since royalty≠higher being, but it’s interesting to note nonetheless

[limpid summit]

Otherwise she likely has growth powers but old powdered isn’t a fan of that and we love him for it

[trail wasp]

again, we have very little to assure what is higher being

[limpid summit]

No conclusive answer

[muted lantern]

thats paul lifeblood, he sold me meth behind a gas station

[limpid summit]

Choose whatever you want until SS comes out with its own lifeblood dlc

[trail wasp]

Dude don't try that, get the white powder from Hallownest streets

That pale stuff is so much better

plus you get smarter

[silk dirge]

100% not

[muted lantern]

what even is fayforn

[vestal swan]

Mr mushroom for example has abilities that nobody else has, his weird ass all sight, there are psychics and there is future site which is different but this is an exclusive all seeing eye type deal that spans the known world he also suggests he is above death, stating how bugs and mushrooms will die and crumble but he will simply readjust.
This is an example of how to classify a higher being, it's not a power scaling thing, it's a uniqueness

[silk dirge]

it is confirmed there can be multiple fayforns in game

[trail wasp]

BIRB

[vestal swan]

Fluffy bird-shaped bug

[muted lantern]

there is????

[lime osprey]

99%

[desert mango]

Can I have one as a pet?

[silk dirge]

the description for faydown cloak says "a fayforn" as opposed to "the fayforn"

[lime osprey]

There can be multiple wyrms

[silk dirge]

implying there are more than one

[midnight zinc]

I’d say it’s almost certainly a higher being, but the lack of it even being mentioned or alluded to by ANY characters is… bizarre, especially since apparently everyone in Hallownest knew about it and it wasn’t allowed, and Hornet has experience seeing its effects before. The fact no one mentions or implies they know about the lifeblood creature is incredibly confusing.

[trail wasp]

The Driftlin are supposedly the Fayforn's offspring

[limpid summit]

No one really mentioned MM first game either

[silk dirge]

driftlins are baby fayforns probably

[limpid summit]

Besides the Shrumals

[trail wasp]

so they wil probably create more

[muted lantern]

we really are just murking her babies

[desert mango]

Thas a pokemon

[limpid summit]

It was a surprise to see Hornet know who he is

[lime osprey]

The PK shut that shit down way before most of the characters alive were born

[limpid summit]

Lifeblood beast will get its time

[silk dirge]

but the fact there are many baby fayforns does not seem consistent with the idea of a hb

[trail wasp]

Hey, I gotta get the peak somehow

[charred nimbus]

The lifeblood creature could also not be the origin of Lifeblood but just a really powerful creature or even a previous unrelated higher being that the lifeblood took over

[vestal swan]

PK was not involved or it would be illegal not taboo

[muted lantern]

I guess they reappear? is that a new driftlin or just like them returning after we whack them

[limpid summit]

New

[vestal swan]

They also would have done a better job of getting rid of it

[desert mango]

This is a point where I bring up a question that I don’t think the chat is ready for. It could result in a big uproar, but I need to go to sleep soon anyway, and I think it could be funny. So…

[limpid summit]

She’s got a lot of kids

[silk dirge]

driflins reappearing is probably not canon

[muted lantern]

why is fayforn chill with us murking her babies

[lime osprey]

Seems like semantics but i agree

[silk dirge]

its just to make mount fay actually doable

[trail wasp]

The moral implications of slaying a breeding hub of Driflins

[desert mango]

Is it not possible that a higher being is just a bug that is much more powerful than the average bug? I.e. bosses?

[midnight zinc]

But there’s no lore tablets in the city mentioning the taboo, no tablets from the pale king in the abyss or the palace mentioning it, none of the journal entries or charm descriptions involving lifeblood mention the creature, and Hornet doesn’t know about it either. Genuinely wtf.

[silk dirge]

theyre probably haunted

[desert mango]

[limpid summit]

The weavers: why is she killing us?

[vestal swan]

Not even remotely close no

[silk dirge]

my theory is fayforn helps us bc her children got haunted so shes pissed at gms

bc mask maker seems surprised she helped us

[muted lantern]

i mean we can check that with needolin can't we?

[lime osprey]

Bro is grasping at straws

[muted lantern]

if the haunting threads pop above their heads

[desert mango]

Not really, this is a thought I’ve had before

[silk dirge]

im basing it off the fact they can get void threaded in act 3

[charred nimbus]

This dialogue makes Fayforn seen like the representation of a fantasy type of dragon...

[desert mango]

The godseekers sure seem to agree with such an interpretation

[trail wasp]

it's implied she just knows that things are only gonna get worse for her home as time goes on, she probably feels the cocoon weakning.

[muted lantern]

how intelligent is fayforn?

[lime osprey]

Hornet does know about it, she just doesn’t know about abyss creature, which makes sense

[silk dirge]

if something can get void threaded its very likely it was already haunted

[trail wasp]

just above 6 INT

[silk dirge]

pretty smart i think

[charred nimbus]

i think it's just confirmed it was haunted, not implied

[limpid summit]

The Godseekers call anything a god because they were abandoned by their old gods and they seek other bugs to put them on a path to the god of gods

[muted lantern]

is she good at algebra

[silk dirge]

arent pigeons like suprisingly smart

[vestal swan]

It's not accurate in the slightest, godseekers hand out useless superfluous titles to every boss we kill, it doesn't make them higher beings

[silk dirge]

same applies to fayforn probably

[lime osprey]

commune

Hmmmmmm, icl, this word and this word only is the one reason why i believe fayforn has like a 1% chance to be a higher being

[limpid summit]

Gruz mother is not a higher being; at the risk of strawmanning, even exceptional bugs such as PV wouldn’t be either

[muted lantern]

they have incredible pattern recognition iirc

[limpid summit]

As in communion in a religious sense?

[vestal swan]

It's not a strawman when the goal post was knocked down and dragged into the parking lot

[limpid summit]

I think that’s just a cool way of saying if you want to talk to her

[lime osprey]

Yeah

[trail wasp]

Commune isn't really a term that's religously used, or just used for rare creatures...

you commune to work

[limpid summit]

Isn’t that commute

[silk dirge]

fayforn is probably a mythical beast type deal

[trail wasp]

Commune just means to travel to meet

[desert mango]

Given how little elaboration there’s been on the term higher being over the years, what exactly leads us to assume that only godlike bugs can be higher beings? It’s not like there’s a game-given definition for the term

[charred nimbus]

Exactly

[silk dirge]

the mr mushroom poem describes her as the heart of frost

so theres definitely some lore shit with that

[muted lantern]

the citadel doesnt start collapsing because gms died its because a second fayforn hit the high halls

[trail wasp]

Fayforn bossfight when?

[lime osprey]

Also, the weavers enjoyed her company, which could signify she has a allure like the other higher beings. Also Mr Mushroom is talking to her when he seems to ignore every other thing, again, a sign of allure

[silk dirge]

steel city dlc

and you fight her to tame her to fly to steel city

[vestal swan]

The definition of the term, hornet uses it for GMS only, the devs used it for other specific characters. There's not really much if any wiggle room on this

[silk dirge]

it would be so fucking epic

[desert mango]

Sounds like cherry-picking to me, if I’m being honest

[charred nimbus]

you're cooking, don't stop

[vestal swan]

That's not cherry picking that's taking what is given to us?

[desert mango]

Taking some of what was given to us

[muted lantern]

do you guys think we are gonna get to go into alchemist zylotols memory for a lifeblood region, using the act three song we use to get into the three hearts?

[desert mango]

I’m just considering all possibilities here. You should try it sometime

[silk dirge]

i will bc i have homework to do

[charred nimbus]

That's a big achievment, the weavers enjoying someone other then thenselves

[vestal swan]

Choosing to look at all of that and ignore it to make up your own definition is nonsense

[silk dirge]

i still am really curious what the deal of the lifeblood creature is

what is up with bro

[desert mango]

The only nonsense here is ignoring some evidence in favor of the evidence you prefer

[muted lantern]

you mean paul lifeblood? he sold me gas station lifeblood thats why im plasmified now

[vestal swan]

You don't have evidence

[limpid summit]

Making a lifeblood infection and not putting LBB there (and shoving it randomly in Godhome) is crazy

[desert mango]

I’ve provided plenty, thank you very much

[charred nimbus]

Man, Hollow knight lore nerds must think they are really smart with all this type of debates i see here

[vestal swan]

0 is not plenty

[silk dirge]

anyways i find it really funny the shade cloak dude is called a higher being in game files

game files arent canon but thats silly

[vestal swan]

You said what if we just took the words and interpreted them all differently, like directly opposite to how they were intended

[muted lantern]

we out here talking about fun stuff while these 2 are still having the pettiest back and forth lmao

[desert mango]

Do you want me to quote back to the evidence I gave? Since you’re apparently incapable of scrolling up or talking to me without insults?

[silk dirge]

average day in sk lore

[vestal swan]

And the little skull crabs are called goombas or something

[muted lantern]

he got high off the void fumes

[vestal swan]

You can't quote the evidence because it doesn't exist, you have not provided anything that supports your idea

[limpid summit]

If you aren’t satisfied:
Higher Beings exist above all others.
If everything Godseeker calls a “god” exists above all others that would be ridiculous as like we see bugs like Cloth or Quirrel beat “gods” yet Godseeker miraculously doesn’t acknowledge these higher being killers

[silk dirge]

the marrow ones?

[vestal swan]

I think so

[silk dirge]

lmao

[limpid summit]

Again what places Massive Moss Charger above all others

[desert mango]

Ok, give me a minute

[vestal swan]

No

[muted lantern]

fun fact the little goomba guys im pretty sure the skull shape tells yo whether the skull will get up or not, don't quote me on this im drunk

[desert mango]

Then I’m done here

For a mod, you’re very disrespectful

[silk dirge]

i think to godseeker a "god" is a more powerful creature of its type

[limpid summit]

Guys guys let’s all settle down

[silk dirge]

so like mmc is stronger than regular moss chargers

[vestal swan]

Funny egg

[silk dirge]

so to godseeker its a "god"

[limpid summit]

It’s a god cause it’s a bossfight

[muted lantern]

i mean its stronger because its like 5 dudes in a trench coat

[silk dirge]

yeah basically

[limpid summit]

Pretty much

[vestal swan]

Godsekers just stupid, some characters might call strong things gods like God tamer for aura, but she knows what actual gods are like and she's just handing out titles

Fucking MMC

[silk dirge]

soul warrior lmao

[vestal swan]

It's three guys in a trench coat

[silk dirge]

godseeker would for sure call the fucking big ant guard a god

[muted lantern]

anythings a god when you're godseeker

[desert mango]

If you guys are trying to get me to continue engaging with this conversation, I’m not allowed to gather evidence, so I can’t really do so

[muted lantern]

?

[vestal swan]

We aren't you said you were leaving we are talking without you

[limpid summit]

Go ahead and gather evidence twin ❤️‍🩹

[desert mango]

Sure are talking shit on me like I’m still a part of the conversation

[silk dirge]

anyways it would be really cool to have like hhg in the boss rush dlc

hhg is harder than a lot of boss fights

[muted lantern]

what would groal be the god of, the real answer you can't give because it will get filtered

[carmine veldt]

When you have a hammer everything looks like a nail
-idk who

[desert mango]

No worries

[vestal swan]

Nobody said a word to you or about you

[silk dirge]

god of "what the fuck why does this guy have vs"

[limpid summit]

Corpse creeper gauntlet was too but eh

[desert mango]

What about here?

[desert mango]

And here

[limpid summit]

You a Godseeker?

[vestal swan]

I didn't know your name was godseeker

[silk dirge]

the one before zote?

[vestal swan]

Lmfao

[desert mango]

Aaand here

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/godseeker-hum-gif-25520381

[vestal swan]

Damn you really did change your name to Godseeker

[silk dirge]

god seeker has a different definition of god

[desert mango]

Continually making fun of my proposition for no good reason

[vestal swan]

We are discussing a topic that was brought up

[muted lantern]

people are making fun of the character named godseeker?

[vestal swan]

We arent attacking you and that's the entire problem with your side of the argument is you think you're being attacked when we disagree with you

[silk dirge]

blud wishes he was a last claw

[limpid summit]

Poking light of a proposition isn’t an attack on you if you put something up you’re at the mercy of having people talk about it

[desert mango]

I’m not the one intentionally being disrespectful here. Refer to your own damn rules

[muted lantern]

who the hell is last claw

[silk dirge]

the dudes right before karmelita

[limpid summit]

Alright, how about you bring forth your evidence and we can handle this in a civilized way

[vestal swan]

You just imagined we were talking about you twice when you weren't mentioned or replied to
After you said you were leaving the conversation

[muted lantern]

oh you mean karmelitas simps

[silk dirge]

yeah

[carmine veldt]

Yall

[limpid summit]

Bro

[carmine veldt]

As a godseeker

[silk dirge]

💀

[carmine veldt]

We just call whatever we want gods

[desert mango]

You know what? I can find better places to discuss the lore. Fuck all of you

[vestal swan]

Do not role play I will mute you

[limpid summit]

Boy slow down 😭😂✌️

[muted lantern]

What did i do???

[silk dirge]

what was this argument even about 😭

[carmine veldt]

It’s a joke but ok

[muted lantern]

it was a well timed bit, but no fun allowed here sorry

[silk dirge]

shoutouts to the person who fucking made accounts roleplaying as celeste collabs in celestecord

my favorite user "Winter Collab 2021"

[limpid summit]

Address me

[silk dirge]

they also lead to a rule specifically banning that lol

[muted lantern]

i guess the last claws arent actually karmelita simps because presumably the skarr are all her kids

i think?

[silk dirge]

"do not impersonate community projects" 😭

[muted lantern]

but shes an ant queen no? like shes the mother of all the skarr

[limpid summit]

I think the Skarr was made up of different tribes right

Karmelita wasn’t the mother of all of them

[vestal swan]

4780 royal Allegra lane

[limpid summit]

Holy shit

[vestal swan]

Yeah I think the shamans said that she united the tribes

[muted lantern]

is that said somewhere?

[muted lantern]

oh, interesting

[limpid summit]

What powdered said

[silk dirge]

anyways what was the previous argument even about

[vestal swan]

Literally nothing

[silk dirge]

was someone trying to argue about who was a hb 😭

[muted lantern]

whether hornets a higher being or not i think

[silk dirge]

lmao

[sacred heath]

i scroll up and see someone ragequit the theory chat what the hell happened there

[silk dirge]

i think demigod is a good term to describe her power level but like that is not worth an argument

[limpid summit]

I don’t think it’s a bad fan term

She and PV are in classes by themselves

[silk dirge]

half higher being feels like a weird term tho

[vestal swan]

Why is PV included what

[trail wasp]

Them another person were just goading each other

[limpid summit]

PV is crazy strong

[muted lantern]

generally agree, its interesting that shes called higher by zi but people have made some solid arguments about it

[sacred heath]

story of the world innit

[vestal swan]

Okay Apple you just fell into a power scaler mindset what's wrong with you

[trail wasp]

YEP

[vestal swan]

Crazy strong in combat is not a qualifier

[limpid summit]

I love powerscaling I love powerscaling

[vestal swan]

Unless there's an undefeated in battle higher being

[muted lantern]

if you can neg diff goku are you a higher being?

[silk dirge]

shade lord

[limpid summit]

I mean otherwise there’s no close higher being

[vestal swan]

SL can canonically lose fights

[limpid summit]

Cause everything Hornet can do another Weaver theoretically could

So Hornet and PV are at the apex of their niches without existing above them

[blissful harbor]

to what?
flowers don’t count

[limpid summit]

Rad

[vestal swan]

Dreams

[trail wasp]

If you can Neg Diff Any Radiance, you are a higher being

[vestal swan]

Anything that doesn't end in death is a possible path they can continue

I hate that stupid flower so much

[silk dirge]

anyways to me yeah i dont think demigod would really be a canonical term for hornet but its an easy way to describe her so i use it

[vestal swan]

Power scaling never had any grounds to go on anyway because people will will put characters up against each other that have literally never showed any combat ability

[silk dirge]

but that is not worth an argument

[vestal swan]

Why won't people just call her a half wyrm, it's what the game uses

[limpid summit]

If you wanted to combat scale bugs (not including HBs) Hornet and PV at the top, naturally powerful species like Shamans and Weavers around there, then like 5GKs and whatever

[silk dirge]

then you have to explain what wyrm means

here its probably fine to use

but if you have people who are less familiar with lore demigod is probably a much better way to describe hornet

[vestal swan]

Except they probably assume that means she qualifies as a half God which is not accurate in universe

I hate this

[silk dirge]

yeah but do you want to start describing what a wyrm is to some person

[simple hedge]

Crazy claim

[silk dirge]

anyways to me all that matters is hornet has abilities far above mortal bugs but shes not a higher being and whatever gets that point across is fine to me

[spare anvil]

is silksong real

[muted lantern]

No

[sterile jacinth]

It is frustrating when people start arguing about semantics like that

[muted lantern]

I love semantics

[silk dirge]

same

[blissful harbor]

demigod is a pretty accurate way to describe hornet yea

[vestal swan]

I feel like wyrm is easier to explain
Wyrm is a proper god, she got some of the genetics and none of the god qualifying powers

[silk dirge]

yeah

anyways this reminds me the best part of silksong to me is how little npcs actually know who hornet is

like snail shamans, seamstress, weavers and gms are the only people in pharloom who actually know who hornet is

i love that in hk too

[small gate]

And barely

[vestal swan]

Well Hornet is a foreigner and TK is an abomination that was hidden away in the basement?

[small gate]

The shamans know shes a pale being, but nothing like her being wyrm spawn

[vestal swan]

Because they can see she's pale..

[silk dirge]

also this is the best compliment someone ever gives in hk universe

[small gate]

Speaking of pale beings

[silk dirge]

guess the npc

[small gate]

I really want to see more roots in this universe

[silk dirge]

what the fuck is a gadfly even 😭

[vestal swan]

Uhhh pinsmith

[silk dirge]

salubra

[small gate]

2 is a coincidence but 3 would solidify roots being freaky ass shits

[vestal swan]

Tf

[vestal swan]

Same, two did not give us enough answers

And still no other colored wyrm (I'm glad they suck)

[silk dirge]

wtf is a gadfly tho

[small gate]

Wyrms are supposedly extinct

[vestal swan]

That technically could refer to their big forms though because he's talking about the world being smaller

[small gate]

But then again, hallownest was supposed to be the last standing kingdom

So what do we know

[vestal swan]

Well the difference there is PK is talking out of his ass and Bardoon is assuming

I don't think that applies to TK

[small gate]

"Potentially upsetting questions", such as "how am i able to interact with a dead child"

[vestal swan]

Besides going against the status quo I guess

[silk dirge]

i assume its a type of bug

spinderous spiderling

this is real silksong dialog

spinderous isnt even a word 😭

[vestal swan]

Splendiferous is according to autocorrect

[silk dirge]

crawfather just making up words

this dialog goes hard

[vestal swan]

We don't have a single kangaroo bug...

[silk dirge]

the hopper guys in far fields maybe

they are kinda different but kinda similar

[vestal swan]

Those are ticks

[limpid summit]

I have a soft spot for this dialogue specifically

[vestal swan]

Oh wait you said far fields

[limpid summit]

I never played the needolin for a boss until Crawfather

[vestal swan]

I tried it on more of the beast type bosses

[silk dirge]

is this a broken/unfinished weavnest atla elevator

it definitely seems so

[limpid summit]

Down in the docks? Totally may be

[silk dirge]

i saw a theory today the elevator in atla is related to the snare setter and the weavers wanted to use it to teleport gms into the abyss

[lethal burrow]

that's more just a common Weaver architectural mark

[silk dirge]

those dont have the bg elements tho

theres the spiky things

[lethal burrow]

oh true

[silk dirge]

rare good r/silksong post https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1ogvmu7/weavenest_atlas_central_setpiece_is_not_what_you/

suprisingly theres been a lot of banger posts recently

this one does seem a bit crazy but its definitely worth looking in to

[humble peak]

Oh that is rather a banger

[strange bronze]

So what's the deal with the white roses in Lace's room beneath the Cradle? Do they have any relation to the lore specifically, or are they an aesthetic choice>

[humble peak]

I'm kinda upset you can't keep the snare setter, it's a genuinely good tool lol
Like the damage it does is kinda crazy
They coulda let you craft a new one in act 3 or something

[humble peak]

I think they just look cool tbh

[lethal burrow]

maybe because they're actually figuring out the game and not just complaining about it the entire time

[strange bronze]

tbf it looks badass when Lace slams the ground and petals flow everywhere.

[humble peak]

true!

[spark valve]

They’re just sort of there there’s not a clear reason

[humble peak]

It's funny that they have those in the same game where another bright pale flower is very important but apparently completely unrelated

[silk dirge]

i would imagine lace wasnt intended by weavers to be in there so probably it was a welcome to the impossible pilgrim who could actually make it there

[strange bronze]

Are those roses related to the white flowers in Shellwood?

[spark valve]

Judging by their location they might be made of silk or whatever

[silk dirge]

bc lets be honest there was absolutely 0 chance any pilgrim was ever learning the threefold melody

[spark valve]

They look pretty different

[lime osprey]

This is all headcannon but i like to think this is, too, life woven from silk by GMS. In practice to her making the shells of Lace and Phantom, she wove those flowers into life. It could also just be GMS pass time to make those as she has nothing else to do so she just like to fiddle with silk and make flowers like kids make swans out of paper when bored in class

[spark valve]

That would be neat though idk if they could survive that long

[silk dirge]

im pretty sure the whole threefold melody thing mightve actually been another scheme by the weavers to find someone of "silken strength" who could take on gms

[spark valve]

They could be like offerings from pilgrims or something but you’d think there would be some indication if that was the case

[lime osprey]

The flowers could be made to photosynthesize Her pale light, or maybe she has to replenish them every once and a while lol

[silk dirge]

i do wonder if like the harpoon rings for example are a gameplay mechanic or actually a lore thing as in only someone who could learn clawline could actually make it and learn the architects melody from the core or smth

[strange bronze]

That's nice. Though, was she making those flowers while in her slumber?

[spark valve]

At the end of the day they just look cool and however you ad hoc rationalize them it’s kind of not the point

[humble peak]

supposedly that's how Lace was put together, right?

[silk dirge]

yeah i think tc just wanted a pretty arena and im not complaining about it

[dawn sluice]

yeah
especially considering the kind of effect music has on silken enemies (and TROBBIO)

[spark valve]

It’s a bit murky whether GMS created lace while awake or not the silk heart text is weird because it’s not actually a memory

[strange bronze]

I also wonder if GMS made Lace and Phantom while being caged by the Citadel, or just somewhere after the Weaver's rebellion and before the Citadel construction?

[spark valve]

There’s a window where she could have done it after the cindril weavers fled and before the Atla weavers put her to sleep

[humble peak]

cindril?

[spark valve]

The weavenest with the anklets, it was the staging grounds for the weavers who fled to escape service to GMS

[humble peak]

ah right

[silk dirge]

anyways i think its definitely worth looking into the idea that the threefold melody was not just a scheme to keep pilgrims faithful but a test to find a weaverspawn in the future who could take on gms

[humble peak]

yeah I've been there

[silk dirge]

bc that is definitely a conclusion you could make

it feels like it would make sense

[humble peak]

just a moment ago
before losing steel soul to fourth chorus because I was trying to do the early kill and wasn't looking at my health 💔

[spark valve]

Unfortunate

[ocean crown]

Ok sorry what weaver made that far fields nest and was like “yea. This is how we truly enter”

[dawn sluice]

do you guys think peak pharloom was better or worse than peak hallownest

[spark valve]

Worse

[humble peak]

far worse lmao

[lime osprey]

She made whole kids in her slumber

[spark valve]

Come to Pharloom we got uuuh slaves, slaves, oh look more slaves

[unique tangle]

how did this make it to main lmao

[dawn sluice]

well that explains why they suck

[lime osprey]

And then that one dude who just eats

[humble peak]

peak hallownest was awesome probably
peak pharloom was... well maybe there was like a brief period where it was kinda ok?

[silk dirge]

slave died? nuu uh now they're a silkfly they can keep working

[spark valve]

The gourmand is just living life they’re one of the chiller characters

[dawn sluice]

yknow i wonder why hallownest doesnt have a prison but pharloom has one as big as several other major areas

[lime osprey]

Meh, they have more, traditionally, godlike powers than Hornet and the vessels so

[dawn sluice]

they can even be a chorus!

[dawn sluice]

(vessels doesnt include the knight)

[humble peak]

hallownest with its famous low crime rates

[lime osprey]

Not end of game knight no

[silk dirge]

it scares me ive seen people say they want to eat the great taste of pharloom dish

[spark valve]

Probably been a long time since they had any food

[sterile jacinth]

I’m curious

[silk dirge]

and im like im pretty sure itd fucking kill you

[sterile jacinth]

Just like a nibble

[silk dirge]

i would not touch that shit with a 10 foot pole

[lime osprey]

You hear the way it went down bro throat? Would be really satisfying texture to consume

[humble peak]

How much of the timeline do we even know actually?
Actually where do we even have the bit of the Weavers putting GMS to sleep and stuff? I've read about it online but in game all I've seen for myself is Mask Maker talking about the Weavers wanting to rule, a ton of notes from the Weavers saying whining about how much GMS sucks, and that one note about them passing the burden to the other guys
But like when do we get the bit on them putting her to sleep and keeping her there with a song?

[dawn sluice]

yknow i wonder if the pale king wouldve worked with the radiance if the radiance didnt immediately try to commit genocide across the entire city

[sterile jacinth]

A little hallucinogen on the side wouldn’t hurt

[grand star]

what if this guy is actually nice

[strange bronze]

Wait, then who tasked Phantom to work at the exhaust organ if GMS is asleep?

[sterile jacinth]

It’s very unclear

[lime osprey]

Yeah we really don’t know

[dawn sluice]

the child is very twisted

[humble peak]

honestly I think it could have worked out super well
PK strikes me as capable of diplomacy

[lime osprey]

She could still speak to her kids through sleep

[spark valve]

The mask maker thing does explicitly say that’s what they did plus there’s Atla with a songshrine bell in the background

[lethal burrow]

huh did you make it?

[unique tangle]

"make it" is a loose term but yeah those were my messages lmao

in the HK wikicord

[lethal burrow]

hell yeah.

Making connections and stuff you're doing good work

[unique tangle]

funny seeing them here randomly

[dawn sluice]

anyway
hallownest:
worked to contain one infection, did for a short period of time, was caused by a rival higher being who controlled LIGHT ITSELF
pharloom:
has 3 infections, 2 of them were caused by the ruling class, contained ONE while working to cause the other

[desert mango]

Ok, I’ve had some time to think things over. I’m not sure if it would be accepted, but nonetheless I wanted to apologize for my outburst earlier. I was getting frustrated, but I should have taken that as a sign that I needed to put the phone down, not curse everyone out and bail. So I’m sorry

[humble peak]

I love how like, you get all these "fancy" ingredients like the nut for seasoning and this nasty but ig sophisticated meat and stuff, fine nectar that's like super fine wine or whatever
And you're expecting this super fancy multi-course meal with an apetizer and sides and shit, probably nasty af but viewable as chique if you were the kind of thing that would eat that
And then it's just a giant blob of jello lol

[silk dirge]

I would not want to live in the savage beastfly time period

[spark valve]

Most of this is just going to be unordered

[dawn sluice]

actual MAGGOTS

[humble peak]

I was more just asking about those last two bits lol

[lethal burrow]

probably tastes good as fuck though

[dawn sluice]

which do you guys think is the better civilization

[spark valve]

I don’t think it’s really hotly debated whether Hallownest is better or not

[lethal burrow]

hallownest was not a story that required the land It takes place in to be horrible beyond the troubles of its downfall

pharloom was

[spark valve]

Pharloom is a nonstop cascade of misery

[silk dirge]

at what point did the weavers arrive in hallownest

[dawn sluice]

anyway i like to think of higher beings like rulers of a specific area: they're born with ability to take over an "area", and they usually do, making what's usually just normal substance into their implement
lifeblood: lifeblood abyss being
void: the knight
light: the radiance
nightmares: grimm
silk: gms

[silk dirge]

I would say probably like right before the infection

[lethal burrow]

Before or after the pale king set up his rule

same with karak and khann

[spark valve]

The hearts are called the last inheritors of power that existed before GMS so while their lineages predated her they themselves didn’t necessarily

[humble peak]

Pharloom could have probably turned out like
alright-ish if the citadel dudes didn't start fucking with the silk injections
Like it'd still be a big sham with probably still all the slavery, but like, the main sort of system with the pilgrimages and getting to join the cool choir and stuff, that much would have worked alright probably.

[silk dirge]

i think this could also explain why green prince is so fucking old

[spark valve]

It would’ve worked alright for some people maybe not so much for the slaves

[humble peak]

yeah

that's how it often goes

[spark valve]

Also they probably would have gotten around to culling their members to make robots anyways

[silk dirge]

i think pharloom wouldve been fine if weavers made the citadel for the sole purpose of keeping gms asleep and then didnt try to hoard power

putting gms to sleep was understandable weavers were literally slaves to her

thats my understanding at least

that was justified but everything else they did was not

[humble peak]

Do we really know how bad it was there?
There's a lot of missing info

[spark valve]

Not specifics but they talk about being in servitude and there’s the needolin cutscene

[lethal burrow]

literal slaves FORCED to do! to do- to do...

uh....

harps, maybe?

[silk dirge]

gms probably forced them to do stuff

[humble peak]

We don't know what they did but we do know they complained a whole lot about it

[silk dirge]

we know she wanted them to play music

[spark valve]

At least a component of it was playing music for her

[silk dirge]

also theres somewhere weavers mention a web of servitude

[humble peak]

Do we know that? Or was the music just to keep her asleep?

[silk dirge]

i forgot where exactly

[lethal burrow]

possibly very probably various nonspecific tasks and things of that nature

[spark valve]

There’s widow dialogue I’ll find it

[lethal burrow]

I have no idea what's going on in the widow cut scene. What the hell is that light even supposed to be

[silk dirge]

why not let them have free will

why is she forcing weavers to do shit

[lethal burrow]

OK, yes that's about as far as I can get tho

[humble peak]

Thought funny enough it's more of a yellow light, isn't it?

[lethal burrow]

she was forcing them to pick up a block and then put it on a second smaller block a little bit to the left

Once per week minimum

(with paid holidays)

[silk dirge]

i doubt it

[lethal burrow]

I don't remember the cut scene, but I think so?

[humble peak]

Anyway what I was meaning to ask, where do we get the info specifically that the weavers put GMS to sleep with song and that the religion was established to keep pilgrims singing the lullaby?

[lethal burrow]

when are these words set?

Because the first sinners words can't be after the cut scene since I doubt she was thinking about the lie the moment she came to be as a sentient creature, so if we assume it's consistent, then this would probably be... present speaking talk?

(idk??)

[spark valve]

It's called the citadel of song

the rank and file are called the choir

[lethal burrow]

The mask maker is the one that confirms the citadel was made with the purpose of putting grand silk to sleep.

It's unclear if this was manually done by the Weavers before hand

[humble peak]

so it's merely inferred?

[limpid summit]

I don’t think the cutscenes have to be consistent in that sense

Or cutscenes to dialogue

[silk dirge]

mask maker dialog

[limpid summit]

I think the words have to be set pre Citadel and so does the cutscene though

[spark valve]

I mean when the explicit purpose of the citadel is to keep her asleep, the entire thing is designed to produce noise, and it's fallen silent which correlates with her waking up... yeah it's inferred but that doesn't make it not a pretty robust conclusion

also the songshrine bell in atla

[humble peak]

yeah this checks out

[lethal burrow]

why did it fall silent

[humble peak]

yeah i don't deny it's strong I was just wondering if it was said explicitely anywhere

[dawn sluice]

oh
mask maker dialogue
anyway where was this screenshot screenshotted

[spark valve]

the wiki

[lethal burrow]

why did the citadel fall silent

[humble peak]

good question

maybe it just wasn't sustainable?

[dawn sluice]

some guy tripped and fell and they just HAD to shame him

[lethal burrow]

But like for what reason was it not sustainable? Where was the failure?

[dawn sluice]

they didnt exactly know what it was for, so maybe they just stopped

[humble peak]

oh
actually they tell us don't they
it was the silk injections I think?

[silk dirge]

yeah

[lethal burrow]

huh

[silk dirge]

they wanted to make themselves immortal through silk

which allowed gms to start taking control

[spark valve]

who woulda thought injecting yourself with the life force of a dormant god could have consequences

[lethal burrow]

yes... and then grandmother silk began to haunt them, but I thought she was only able to do the haunting because she began to wake up, which happened because the city went silent

[humble peak]

when the bugs were just doing their thing where they'd climb up and sing their songs and die it worked fine enough
but they were like hey what if we didn't die
and that let her start taking back control over time

[lethal burrow]

Absolutely widow no other Weaver wears a carpet

[silk dirge]

she was able to start haunting in her sleep

[humble peak]

Remember Widow literally had her face torn off
or her "mask" ig
In these lands it can be hard to tell the difference

[spark valve]

dying is probably not directly the thing so much as giving her more access to start haunting citadel bugs at which point she can just make them shut it off

[humble peak]

What's the deal with Widow anyway
I hope we learn more about her

[dawn sluice]

yeah widow probably had something to do with it
but they're pretty far from the cradle and i dont trust that they'd just be allowed to go around

and half their attacks are just throwing stuff at you

[lethal burrow]

What the hell was up with widow between the uprising of the Weaver's and the present day like I know she was mutated, but did they just let her free? what the hell is up with that?

[spark valve]

the surgeon entry states that the procedures with silk gave control of minds to gms

[lethal burrow]

Could you grab a screenshot?

[silk dirge]

"Their procedures with Silk may have prolonged life within the Citadel, but they unknowingly gifted many minds to the monarch."

[humble peak]

It's kinda funny how noise keeps the god asleed and silence wakes her up
Like usually you'd expect the opposite right

[dawn sluice]

oh

[humble peak]

And ofc there's the caretaker dialogue

[dawn sluice]

wheres the room?

[visual glacier]

What’s the discussion rn

[spark valve]

it's like here behind a breakable wall

[humble peak]

uhhh
why did the citadel go silent, what's the deal with widow

[dawn sluice]

ah alr

[dawn sluice]

ty

[visual glacier]

Widow was “strung to serve” by gms and has her mask removed

[spark valve]

probably fell to haunting post silk experiments and widow is a rogue weaver who was probably mutilated by her own kind

[dawn sluice]

yknow why is herra just built different compared to other weavers

[spark valve]

Because™

[humble peak]

because retcon lol

[lethal burrow]

birth. take it or leave it

[lethal burrow]

I forget where this is even said lol

[dawn sluice]

yeah that makes sense

[ocean crown]

I feel like herra was a retcon instead of lore

[lethal burrow]

so like how sentient are the possessed bugs? They still write coral Commandments.

How did the silencing of the citadel go down since we're saying that the first possessions were from the white ward like what did bugs just randomly decide not to do this song the conductors don't really make it seem that way

[lethal burrow]

oh no it 99% is but that ain't in world explanation

[dawn sluice]

which part of herra
her being weaver or her being fat

[lethal burrow]

weaver

[dawn sluice]

cause i feel like the weaver part of hornet already kind of implied herra was one

[ocean crown]

Uh she sorta looks like a unmasked weaver w a new mask? Idk

[visual glacier]

Also she has 8 arms In hk

[ocean crown]

Oh we jnow she is

[lethal burrow]

so?

[dawn sluice]

i personally think the FAT part was the retcon and not the weaver part

[ocean crown]

Maybe that’s why her mask was hazy in hornets memory

[lethal burrow]

how so

[ocean crown]

Oh we know she was a weaver it’s just she looks nothing like one

Yea

[humble peak]

Hornet was never stated to be a Weaver in HK I don't think

[dawn sluice]

yeah
though i still dont believe herrah being a weaver in the first place was a retcon at all

[ocean crown]

White lady

[dawn sluice]

ethereal pasta

[spark valve]

she wasn't

[lethal burrow]

Simply images for people's usage

[dawn sluice]

oh so they DID retcon herrah being fat

[ocean crown]

White lady stated she was the child of herra and pk so we knew she was atleast part weaver

[lethal burrow]

She could've just grown or something I don't know

[spark valve]

in hk there was no reason to think herrah was a weaver

[lethal burrow]

They definitely wanted to make her look more like a weaver in the flashback

[ocean crown]

She resides in the weavers den??

[spark valve]

she doesn't

[limpid summit]

She resides in her own den

[spark valve]

she's in beast's den weaver's den is somewhere else

[humble peak]

we know she was the child of herrah but there was nothing about herrah being a weaver

[limpid summit]

Filled with members of the native spider tribe

[ocean crown]

Oh I’m dumb

[spark valve]

whom she more closely resembles

[limpid summit]

In fact little weavers don’t even appear in beasts den do they

[unique tangle]

take it or leave it

[ocean crown]

I mean I think hornet using silk jn the first place was a pretty big hint

[limpid summit]

The weavers didn’t even send other weavers to protect their queen 💔

[dawn sluice]

thats because they were getting eradicated or kidnapped

[limpid summit]

The implication in HK was that she was a normal spider with PK powers like the vessels

[spark valve]

little whats? don't think there was anything like that in the game

[lethal burrow]

now we need the paths out of pharloom, the grim troop secret map, and the Peruvian grub

[lethal burrow]

We had no indication in the first game that silk was a Weaver exclusive thing though

[ocean crown]

Oh true

[dawn sluice]

wait where is hornet getting her pasta from then

[limpid summit]

Brooklyn

[humble peak]

peruvian grub 🔥

[humble peak]

she's a spider
that's all that was needed

[unique tangle]

rumour has it that if you put together the grimm troupe map and the cindril map that you get a map of the whole world of hollow knight

[limpid summit]

She’s getting her silk from the weavers and that’s where her silk and soul are inseparably bound from

[humble peak]

there wasn't all too much about silk itself being magic in HK

[lethal burrow]

In the first game, it was already a thing that the Weavers helped with the seal of binding so there was a little bit of that

[ocean crown]

Silk is soul btw

[limpid summit]

But it probably comes easier to her because of her Wyrm heritage - that’s also how she can infuse soul into her silk even when there’s no silk in an enemy

[silk dirge]

i think i found something important

[limpid summit]

Silk isn’t naturally soul

[silk dirge]

"naive foundation"

[dawn sluice]

hey
so you know how conceiving a child is apparently NEAR IMPOSSIBLE for weavers?

[ornate hound]

Yea, its just a life expander

[lethal burrow]

No lie lasts forever

[humble peak]

yeah, but in HK the direction it gave was more that silk is a mundane spider thing and the weavers had the ability to do magic stuff with it

[silk dirge]

this might help with timeline stuff

[lethal burrow]

Queue the Little Weaver reference

[spark valve]

the naive foundation of gms wanting them to be her subordinate little daughters who don't do anything she doesn't want them to do

[dawn sluice]

I WAS ABOUT TO DO THAT

[silk dirge]

i was thinking like first sinner

[ornate hound]

It was really only the weavers who could actually use it too

[dawn sluice]

im going to HOLLOW your KNIGHT now.

[ocean crown]

Pk unlocked sex for spiders🔥

[limpid summit]

By acknowledging their own sub divinity they acknowledged GMS’s superiority over them

[silk dirge]

but those two things work hand in hand

[limpid summit]

This was probably pre sealing

[dawn sluice]

for the ENTIRE species somehow
and thats why we have 3000 little weavers

[lethal burrow]

I am deep in the redcon trenches.

If you wanna know my take on them to fit into the current iteration of the world I just headcanon they are regular Weavers who are regressing back to their more base pharlid from because of the infection

[limpid summit]

The way I see it it goes
Cindril harp -> Alta tablets (tools and Eva) -> Cradle -> rule -> Ballador harp

[humble peak]

idk if skong fully retconned the mundane silk thing tbh, it could just be that in Pharloom there's always the implicit context that "silk" refers to magic silk
that "magic silk" being similar to mundane silk but infused with soul and stuff

like we know the city of tears used silk for its tapestries and records and stuff, and I doubt they were just using a bunch of super magic shit for that?

[ocean crown]

Well silk is just a form of soul no?

[silk dirge]

where do you put first sinner

[limpid summit]

In between rule and harp

[humble peak]

the way they talk about it makes it seem more like soul is a component of the silk we see in skong

[ornate hound]

No its kinda like lifeblood, to the citadel bugs it just extended life

[spark valve]

yeah pretty much

[dawn sluice]

would this mean the radiance is more powerful than gms too?

[lethal burrow]

They used parchment not silk

[limpid summit]

Presumably she was locked up by the Weavers because:
Slab didn’t exist for GMS
Conductors wouldn’t have acknowledged the Weavers’ divine right or understood GMS

[manic pewter]

i call second sentinel hot and get a mod warning threatening a ban but ppl can say this and its fine

[humble peak]

oh am i misremembering something

[lethal burrow]

Power has many forms

[visual glacier]

Jeez

You’re right about that tho

[humble peak]

I remember for sure something about the city of tears using silk for stuff

[lethal burrow]

Maybe I miss remembering I don't know it's been a while

[ocean crown]

Yea think abt your actions pal

[dawn sluice]

anyway its funny how the pale king is one of the only cases where raising up a bug doesnt implicitly involve slavery
you just get mind by existing around him

[manic pewter]

im gonna get you

[limpid summit]

My thing is people use web and service eternal to describe the Citadel and place the Cindril exodus around the same time as the Ballador harp

[ocean crown]

[limpid summit]

What do you say to that besides like she isn’t awake and active so silken sight would be weird to acknowledge

[lethal burrow]

grandmother silk only did slavery alleged by assholes

[humble peak]

fwiw GMS also elevated the weavers from fodder enemies to advanced beings with great intellegence and powers. PK's beacon just made you like, be able to think

[silk dirge]

honestly a word i find very interesting is "silken strength" in the ballador harp

[ornate hound]

Not just think, talk and have common sense

[silk dirge]

you can see by how ive used it a lot

[dawn sluice]

true

[spark valve]

the mask maker line isn't implying that's the only thing they would call a web it's saying that weavers use system and web interchangeably making service to gms a web as well as the citadel

[unique tangle]

I’d like to think the hallownest bugs looked like skrills before being enlightened by PK

[spark valve]

also the ballador harp states gms will stay asleep forever

[limpid summit]

I think it’s pretty messianic I like it too

[silk dirge]

my theory with it is the threefold melody was never meant for pilgrims and was meant to be acquired by this person of "silken strength" so they could face gms

[dawn sluice]

one is giving you a brain and the other is straight up evolution
anyway do you think gms truly "loved" the weavers considering how they treat someone like phantom but also considering how she called the weavers her "children" saying they were "divine"

[silk dirge]

who happens to be hornet

[limpid summit]

In her own messed up way yes

[humble peak]

isn't it kinda weird how like, this whole thing is ohh GMS is gonna wake up but she's still asleep for now, but once she's up we're done for
but then when Hornet shows up to throw hands she has no issue getting up to do so

[ocean crown]

Also in the abyss since the lore tablets look the same and there are the same pillars as hallownest in the abyss does that mean the ancient bugs like just lived there

[dawn sluice]

so like
"if you know how to play music, gms' weakness, you may go and kill them"

[spark valve]

it's unclear if her contempt for them is just because of their betrayal or if she sees them as inadequate generally but from a chraracter perspective she proooobably cared?

[silk dirge]

and the weaver spires are meant to be abilities this person would gain to allow them to perform the task

[limpid summit]

Yeah the ancient civilization that ruled the land before Hallownest also had an outpost in the Pharloom abyss

[humble peak]

I think GMS did love them she was just really bad at showing it
We see the same thing in Lace, who fucking hates her mom but GMS is willing to drag down the entire land just to keep her alive a little longer

[silk dirge]

honestly i am really curious how planned out all of this was

[limpid summit]

I mean silken strength does refer to a weaver doesn’t it say weave us free

[dawn sluice]

anyway why do you guys think phantom got NO love whatsoever and got forced to live among maggots that feed on what phantom is made of while also being forced to exist in bilewater

[silk dirge]

yeah

[limpid summit]

I think they awaited a powerful weaver, which makes sense if we assume the Weavers that left had left long beforehand, pre-Citadel

What if the dlc revelation is that the adult weaver was the actual messiah

[lethal burrow]

on the subject of phantom and their abandonment: the journal says that Phantom was tasked with the exhaust organ, but this poses the question.... by who? Certainly not grandmother silk who is presumed to be asleep, and even if conscious would surely not like the citadel or care for its structure enough to assign a daughter to the exhaust. no it seems it could only be the Weavers or the conductors, and from there, the reason for phantoms abandonment seems only clear, in one way or another, knowingly or not, she sided with the citadel as opposed to her mother, sided with the very people keeping grandmother silk caged, and for that reason, I can very much see grandmother silk 'abandoning' phantom (in whatever capacity she's able given her circumstances anyways.)

[ocean crown]

Mmmmm muckmaggot soup😋

[silk dirge]

i am starting to believe that the weavers had a lot of what happens in silksong planned

[dawn sluice]

gms treated random spiders that got evolved better than phantom

[lethal burrow]

they probably loved the Weavers before the Weavers put her in a coma

[lethal burrow]

I think what grandmother silk did to Phantom might not be so clear as what people think on first impression

[silk dirge]

the weavenest in the abyss has void bottles and stuff like that which makes me curious if the weavers wanted to attempt the very same thing you do in snared silk

[humble peak]

What do we even know abotu Phantom

[dawn sluice]

they like the opera

[humble peak]

Like who says she was abandoned?

[dawn sluice]

hunter journal

[limpid summit]

I feel like it would have been fitting, albeit timeline dependent, for the Weavers to exile Phantom to the organ out of jealousy for being a direct child of GMS

[ocean crown]

Sister to lace and she organ

[lethal burrow]

they are a creation of grandmother silk that is older than lace and is tasked with their current position, presumably by the citadel at one time or another.

[limpid summit]

And the conductors just kind of kept her there

[silk dirge]

the existence of weavenest absolom is very interesting to me

[limpid summit]

Although wait

[humble peak]

it only says she's tasked to man the organ, not that she's abandoned

[lethal burrow]

It could be the Weavers or the conductors. I think it works either way.

[humble peak]

where do we get that she's older?
like I don't doubt it but, is that said anywhere?

[silk dirge]

i definitely believe the weaver in there was experimenting with void as a means to kill gms

[spark valve]

Forgotten...
Discarded...
Silk stretched thin...

[limpid summit]

No it would have to have been the conductors right since Isamor describes the Weaver citadel as a plain one of stone

[manic pewter]

I think they were an earlier version of lace, while gms was dialling in how to make 'life' from silk, thats why theyre more frayed

[silk dirge]

the bottles filled with void and shit like that

[limpid summit]

No exhaust needed

[humble peak]

ah yeah that'll do it

[limpid summit]

The conductors did it

[lethal burrow]

she is noted to be old well lace is not.
Beyond that, I actually don't know I think it might just be an assumption ? It might be said somewhere though.

[silk dirge]

idk what exactly they were planning but i would definitely believe if the weavers wanted to set a snare to the void

[dawn sluice]

it literally says she's grey with age

[humble peak]

fair

[humble peak]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1ogvmu7/weavenest_atlas_central_setpiece_is_not_what_you/
you might find this post interesting

[lethal burrow]

but also, none of the other silk in the game is gray with age. none.

Which would imply phantom predates almost every single thing in the game

[humble peak]

I mean
most of the other silk in the game isn't, like, alive

[manic pewter]

Like i might be thinking too deep, but why do lace and phantom have black heads/faces?

[humble peak]

good question!!

[limpid summit]

Might just be color contrast

[lethal burrow]

cause grandmomma silk also has that

[dawn sluice]

prime phantom would probably beat us to death in 5 seconds max if thats the case

[rugged storm]

Gms

[limpid summit]

Canonically? Shrug

[dawn sluice]

it looks nicer than more white on top of white

[manic pewter]

Yeah its great for the designs but i wonder whether theres any lore reason

[humble peak]

Like, they're made of Silk, so what is the black stuff?

[limpid summit]

I mean like she’s just sat playing the organ for an era

[spark valve]

not really any reason

[spark valve]

also silk

[humble peak]

GMS has like a spool body
But Lace and Phantom are presumably all thread

[limpid summit]

Maybe she’s just grey with age because she’s doing a task for a long time

Aren’t the underworks bugs described a certain way

[rugged storm]

Gms seems to be thread in the last scene

[dawn sluice]

very dark silk used to bind them together a bit longer than magic wouldve ig

[silk dirge]

i already posted about it lol

yeah i think its a really interesting theory

[humble peak]

oh it was you that shared it? lol

[manic pewter]

Oh i thought phantom was grey from being constantly hit by dirty exhaust

[silk dirge]

yeah lol

[lethal burrow]

see that would make sense but the description says grey "with age"

[silk dirge]

but anyways the weaver void experiments in absolom definitely need more attention

[manic pewter]

Yeah i guess we havent seen any other silk beings 'fade' right, could be a result of that

[limpid summit]

Even GMS isn’t grey is the thing

[silk dirge]

what the fuck were they doing down there

[dawn sluice]

i wonder how lace would react to phantom considering her views on her mother

[limpid summit]

I think with age also could refer to how long she’s spent

Cause like characters in HK don’t often appear super old

[manic pewter]

They do have the needolin interaction

[humble peak]

The Mist is so weird
like what even is that stuff? Steam? It seems like steam. So why is there this big system to get rid of it, why does it make the lost woods??

[limpid summit]

The nailmasters are old as hell

[silk dirge]

that same room with the void bottles also has the void tendril rune

the "void given form" one

[lethal burrow]

its exhaust

[silk dirge]

which makes me believe weavers 100% intended to do something with void

[dawn sluice]

how do i keep missing this stuff

[silk dirge]

snare setter likely involved in that

[humble peak]

this part... that sort of, vial, Phantom seems to be in. We see more of them somewhere else, right?

[spark valve]

snare setter wasn't part of some void scheme it was part of the citadel scheme

[dawn sluice]

thatd explain why they steal silk

[silk dirge]

i mean for what we know yeah

[manic pewter]

They do look similar yeah

[lethal burrow]

does that mean wrath dialogue is also Phantom dial

[silk dirge]

but the weavenest absolom room with bottles filled with void is very interesting

[manic pewter]

absolom is FULL of lore its great

[spark valve]

different weavenests were different groups

[manic pewter]

cant wait for the mossbag video

[lethal burrow]

imagine he's like only in the blasted steps

[spark valve]

absalom didn't really come to anything

[silk dirge]

i guess absolom was just crazy then

i assume the weaver in there is absolom

yeah thats the room im discussing

also what the fuck is the lore of farsight

i am very curious what that is supposed to be

[manic pewter]

Yeah all we know is "Retracted Weaver surveillance instrument."

What does it mean by retracted

[silk dirge]

possibly surveilling the void?

[spark valve]

not deployed

[silk dirge]

ive seen theories that the farsight looks like a wyrm so possibly they were trying to do foresight stuff?

that would line up with what it does but the look of it seems like a coincidence

[humble peak]

I think it's literally just a machine to see far
nothing else to it

[silk dirge]

it doesnt look that similar to a wyrm

[silk dirge]

i mean it doesnt look like a telescope to me

its got runes and shit

[spark valve]

people like to draw this comparison but it's not exact

[manic pewter]

It says "the state of the world can be viewed" which is an interesting way to say it

[unique tangle]

How about this comparison

[silk dirge]

i mean it would make sense the weaver in the abyss whos detached from everything else would want to know whats going on in the world

[unique tangle]

Steel Seer Zi says she can sense stuff about the world

[humble peak]

honestly it's not impossible the technologies of the black egg tablet and the farsight are related considering how the weavers were involved in hallownest

[unique tangle]

Like where her vassal went and what happened when Hornet met with her vassal

[spark valve]

clairvoyance soul runes are just a thing apparently

[humble peak]

well yeah it's a magic telescope

[unique tangle]

Almost like Steel Seer Zi has some sort of… sense of the world

[silk dirge]

honestly i think farsight would be a more compelling thing if it marked the areas you are missing completion in

like not the specific spot but the area

that seems like it would line up with what its supposed to do

[lethal burrow]

What about the cut scene?

[spark valve]

Unfortunately that would be too convenient and Ari hates you

[lethal burrow]

its almost like they are a seer

[silk dirge]

found watcher on the edge by accident gang

[manic pewter]

Yeah its not exactly but its does look similar to seals when the cutscene happens

[silk dirge]

the way i found watcher is really funny

[visual glacier]

Oh hi

[unique tangle]

A Seer who sees far

[silk dirge]

i was looking for missing memory lockets and was using a guide for that but i dont think i saw the watcher spot on the guide and i decided to silk soar for fun

[unique tangle]

Yknow those things you put in kids rooms that project constellations onto their ceiling

[visual glacier]

Cutscene for reference

[unique tangle]

They took Seer’s soul and made her a robot

[silk dirge]

also random thing i think its really funny how dramatic they made completion percentage

that cutscene was not necessary at all 😭

[visual glacier]

It’s cool

[manic pewter]

i have forgor which cutscene ur talking abt lol

[silk dirge]

farsight

[manic pewter]

oh ya

no its sick

[unique tangle]

Same game that gives me the same 10 minute cutscene every time I want to upgrade my needle

[silk dirge]

anyways what we were discussing before is why specifically this was in absolom

what was that weaver using it for

i doubt they were looking at vast distances over void

i doubt there was anything for them to see