sk-lore

[obsidian quail]

they knew they weren’t divine at that point

[quartz salmon]

If a lesser version of this was ever playable you'd become a pure summoner

No needle, just throw out darts and controll enemies around you

[ebon silo]

So the weavers prison the first sinner not GMS?

[craggy smelt]

'meet your... nephews?'
what's the gender neutral term for that?

[maiden meteor]

might’ve been either

we can’t be sure

[errant hare]

Most of Pharloom seems to this day unaware that the Weavers weren't originally divine so First Sinner could've been trying to spread the truth

which could delegitimize the Weaver rule

[ebon silo]

Well there's 2 theories
GMS sealed her ass away and told the weavers to forget about it and the weavers couldn't find her prison so she couldn't be freed or the weavers were forced to seal FS as a reminder to not question divinity

[obsidian quail]

the reasons i’ve seen in here aren’t convincing to me and take a train of building up assumptions but it’s fine to think that way methinks

[craggy smelt]

no fucking way

[maiden meteor]

imo imprisoning Weaver like that is a lot of hustle, so I’m not sure citadel bugs could’ve done that

[obsidian quail]

why would first sinner do that

[obsidian quail]

they capture weavers all the time

[half cobalt]

nibling sounds like some common mob spawned from void

[maiden meteor]

half bloods mostly

[obsidian quail]

it’s a theory people have but i don’t agree

[maiden meteor]

and even then they lose a lot of peers

[obsidian quail]

but they still get captured

[craggy smelt]

it sounds like something void beings can call each other but non-void beings are not allowed to

[ebon silo]

I don't to I mean why imprison one of your own kin unless you were forced to do so

[half cobalt]

the n word

[ebon silo]

but then again if they were the ones that sealed it why didn't they unsealed it during which they got the chance to escape pharloom

[errant hare]

It does in fairness seem like there was a period during which GMS was asleep but was also manipulating the kingdom, which is why the Weavers eventually fled

[quartz salmon]

They use the n word in deepnest, Nosk

[maiden meteor]

for all we know Weavers weren’t best of people and might’ve done it for number of reasons

[ebon silo]

Another is the weavers also didn't like the first sinner at first especially with her questions

[obsidian quail]

and my issue with weavers imprisoning first sinner theory is it keeps building up assumptions

endless train of speculation to make it work

[ebon silo]

It's like this basically

[maiden meteor]

I don’t really have a solid opinion on who done that tbf

both theories seem solid enough to me

[dapper willow]

They really turned up the ambiguity to 11 huh

Imagine coming back to the lore channel every day

[maiden meteor]

Another thing is why GMS didn’t use FS for whatever thing she needed weavers for

unless ages passed between imprisoning FS and GMS collecting weavers

at which point FS was already dead

[errant hare]

Caretaker notes that there were topics that Weavers banned from discussion due to the possibility that GMS would "sense" it; it's possible that part of keeping Silk asleep isn't just the music but also keeping her placated and First Sinner would decidedly not be doing that

[ebon silo]

Probably because it would look suspicious or what you followed up

[obsidian quail]

her punishment said she wasn’t allowed to die

[ebon silo]

Dude got the Zeus treatment 😭

[dapper willow]

Wasnt that about her not getting absolution in death
So even if she dies...

[maiden meteor]

can mean she was imprisoned with some sort of memory spell (which is why fight happens in memory)

so basically she was forced to live forever even beyond her mortality

Unless death at all isn’t conventional for Weavers

since ability giving weavers also seem to be aware in some sense?

Classic TC vague storytelling

[errant hare]

this also kinda explains why PK was so desperate to get Herrah to sign off on being a Dreamer

[zinc pivot]

The crests aren’t exactly alive either

[errant hare]

bc Weavers are very powerful in their own right but if they just flat out don't die...

[maiden meteor]

they do die

but idk if they cease to exist altogether

maybe message Hornet sees upon binding is some leftover memory

[obsidian quail]

that’s the impression i got for her transgressions

eternal punishment

[flint wadi]

she was mummified just like everyone else
weavers can pass, its mentioned in one of the rune harps

[zinc pivot]

The bodies you used to bind crest with have needolin dialogues too
So i think its just the leftover memories in deed

[flint wadi]

or was it a tablet

yeah likely its just her memory

[zinc pivot]

Not sure for first sinner though, why would she want to fight hornet?

[maiden meteor]

Ballador’s Rune Harp says “we shall die”

[maiden meteor]

maybe test her strength

[errant hare]

Well also noteworthily it seems to be a higher being thing in general that they can live in memories and retain sapience in them

[flint wadi]

her dialogue differs drom other weaver mummies so it could be that she holds some contempt toward her

[zinc pivot]

Are you talking about white lady?

[errant hare]

White Palace is stored in a memory, Radiance flips out bc she's being forgotten, the Everbloom sequence

[flint wadi]

maybe by binding her hornet reawakened her memory including her rage

[zinc pivot]

So basically we beat her up like we beat bell beast up to calm her rage

[dapper willow]

Radiance is a special case

[wary plover]

If I was sherma I would probably not forgive

[flint wadi]

she calls hornet a half spawn, which is more blatant and direct than "daughter of a distant land"

[flint wadi]

eh its more like you claim it

[dapper willow]

First sinner was just really salty

[flint wadi]

she kinda was yeah, at everything

[errant hare]

FS to Hornet upon finding out her plan: "oh didn't know you were chill like that, I'm in"

[zinc pivot]

I wonder if thats what made her angry too, seeing hornets half pale heritage

[obsidian quail]

i don’t think first sinner had real contempt i just think she calls it like she sees it

[dapper willow]

I find it very cool how the weavers can make clothes for themselves at the snap of a finger
Its mostly aparent with first sinner and grandma silk

[errant hare]

Side note I really love the idea of Hornet's soul being a VC between the imprints she binds. Like ik Eva specifically says she wouldn't retain an individual sense of identity but imagining that they still keep some semblance, imagine what it'd be like for Eva and FS to just chat in Hornet's head

[wary plover]

Do you think the first sinner helped hornet intentionally or just because she failed to extract hornets power

[errant hare]

"YEAHHH GET HER, CAST A SPELL, RIP HER ARM OFF" -FS, backseat gaming as Hornet Binds Silk

[dapper willow]

Sounds like hornet just gets multiple personality disorder...

[flint wadi]

my guess is since FS opposed weavers as much as gms she found the whole cult surrounding hornet (weavers prophecized that someone who coul "weave them free" would grace their kingdom one day, which is why the mummies greet you with open arms) also frustraiting

[zinc pivot]

Grandma silk has no clothes wdym

[errant hare]

Arguably Silk IS clothes if you think abt it...

[dapper willow]

She has
The white is her clothing
You can see in the abyss how her body is actually black and her clothing falling apart

[flint wadi]

FS really is just mad at everything

so she became a liability

[zinc pivot]

Pretty sure thats just void seeping into her body

[dapper willow]

She was a husk so I don't think she could have done anything with hornet's power

[dapper willow]

Team cherry ambiguity at it again
Making bug bodies and void the same color

[obsidian quail]

why do people say FS opposed weavers as fact that, how did it evolve like that into this chat

[zinc pivot]

During the normal ending silk body remains white during the process

[obsidian quail]

where was GMS even staying in pharloom

[flint wadi]

because she was imprisoned by the citadel

[zinc pivot]

Yeah its void seeping in

[flint wadi]

she was of the first generation (weavers)

so it had to be the period when they commanded it

[errant hare]

Well Silk's face is the same black color in the Cradle

[flint wadi]

why would they imprison their own kind

had to be a reason

[obsidian quail]

what does being the first generation mean

[errant hare]

As in she was born a Pharlid

[zinc pivot]

Fullblooded weaver

All second gen will be crossbreeds

[flint wadi]

weavers are referred to by the twelth architect as "first children"
theyre pharlooms first inhabitants

[obsidian quail]

no i’m saying what does that mean for significance of weavers capturing her

[dapper willow]

Well no because the other kingdoms

[flint wadi]

could you reword that

[flint wadi]

gms' pharloom*

and i shouldve said denizens my bad

[obsidian quail]

why does her being first generation prove weavers imprisoned her

she could have been captured anytime

[mighty jolt]

I think the argument for it is "she said we weren't gods openly and we really didn't like being told the truth".

[obsidian quail]

the weavers already knew they weren’t divine

by that point

and first sinner has no reason to go against them

[dapper willow]

Im kinda sad tc cut the pin pilgrim from bellhart

[mighty jolt]

There's a difference between them knowing and all the people they wanted to serve them knowing.

[zinc pivot]

They don’t, that’s why First Sinner is the first

[obsidian quail]

they did know by the time they were in power in the citadel

[errant hare]

Weavers knew, Pharloom's citizens didnt

[zinc pivot]

So it means First Sinner imprisonment is pre Citadel

Else nothing would fit in the timeline

[mighty jolt]

I don't really think that's too important either way; she could have been imprisoned for openly talking of it; but also what's the source on that?

[obsidian quail]

and what does First Sinner gain from exposing the weavers? who would even listen? why would she do that? who is “Our” that First Sinner refers to? why does she talk about being free from Silk?

[flint wadi]

because she is literally dubbed the FIRST sinner, the connotation here is that she was the first one to be put under the slabs chains

[obsidian quail]

it takes too much speculation

[errant hare]

Well I feel like it would be kind of hard for Weavers to not know their own origins when they were the ones transformed

[obsidian quail]

because by then they knew what’s up via weavenests and they actually tried to make divinity in the form of Eva

[mighty jolt]

It's pretty evident they didn't initially.

[obsidian quail]

the citadel is religious propaganda

[zinc pivot]

Then you have forgotten what it was before Darwins evolutionary theory was well known

[obsidian quail]

from the beginning

[mighty jolt]

Pretty sure the weavenests were created way later; after the haunting had started.

[obsidian quail]

Weavers undeniably have a desire to dominate or rule or whatever but they knew they weren’t divine by the time they took over

[zinc pivot]

Weavers were like humans, seeing pharlid like how we see simians

[errant hare]

What I mean is First Sinner has memories of her life as a Pharlid

I can't imagine she's the only one like that

[obsidian quail]

the weavenests were created when GMS was awake

[flint wadi]

the common motif with FS is that she is furious, too much at everything that she could be deemed a liability to the citadel's order

[dapper willow]

Nah that doesnt make sense

[zinc pivot]

Maybe she experimented with silk magic and dive into her memory

Elegy of the Deep proved it could be possible

[obsidian quail]

that’s not a good headcanon

[flint wadi]

what were her actions is unknown, only apostacy which could be spun a million ways

[flint wadi]

didnt know we had headcanon police here

[obsidian quail]

what

[flint wadi]

either way it has to line up with that specific period in the timeline, how else can it be spun

first sinner, first prisoner

so the citadel is in its early days

[manic pewter]

its confirmed, hornet is trans

/s

[flint wadi]

likely still managed by weavers

[zinc pivot]

And maybe wasn’t called citadel

[flint wadi]

it doesnt really matter

[zinc pivot]

At best it was like ton of weavers den together

[obsidian quail]

ur saying first sinner would risk waking up GMS who all weavers wanted to be free from and risk her own rule and freedom because she wants to spread a lie that all weavers know about atp

to dumb bugs

and we have to also assume she led a faction because she keeps saying “OUR”

[dapper willow]

Im curious as to what sort of final form she could take on outside of gms absorbtion

[obsidian quail]

too much speculation that doesn’t make sense that requires further speculation to make it make sense and so on

[errant hare]

??? First Sinner probably just disagreed with the plan to keep Silk dormant and wanted her down, regardless of its viability as a plan

[mighty jolt]

I am still wondering whether GMS was originally in control of the citadel before it turned into the citadel we know today. Because it's strange that they'd make a ton of cocoon imagery for their mom they hated and wanted everyone to forget about. I half suspect the citadel predates the weaver rule thereof, and it was only after GMS napped that the weavers took it over and did all the song stuff to turn it into a giant trap.

[obsidian quail]

if the weavers had a way to kill her they would have

[errant hare]

Exactly they didn't and FS clearly didnt wanna let that stop her

Which made her a problem

[obsidian quail]

so now ur speculating that First Sinner is taking it upon herself to wake GMS up and kill her

which has absolutely no basis

do u see what i’m saying

[flint wadi]

im open to other variants but you dont seem to have any either

all she says is that she is furious with the lie, which doesnt make sense how else would it translate into apostacy and her imprisonment

not to mention the dubious timeline

[errant hare]

...idk dude the skill we get is called Rune Rage, she's imprisoned for speaking out against the lie of divinity, and they needed some motive to keep her imprisoned.

[flint wadi]

who was she rejecting, weavers already rejected gms

[errant hare]

So like yeah seems plausible

[dapper willow]

I mean baseless speculation is half the fun...

[flint wadi]

yeah it is but spoiling the fun is ss lore's moto

[obsidian quail]

i mean we know all weavers are apostates to GMS, we know weavers were mad at GMS, we know they were united in their view of her, hence “Our”, we know of an era of time where weavers were getting captured

[dapper willow]

Lol
True

[flint wadi]

be glad we dont have mods "um actually"-ing you

[mighty jolt]

But the issue with that is that under that assumption the Slab has to come after the weavers became leavers.

[errant hare]

The era of time where Weavers were being captured and brought to the Cradle does definitively need to be way after First Sinner though bc their cages used silk runes and she's theorized to have been the inventor of them

[flint wadi]

interestingly gms uses OUR too

[vivid kernel]

is silk soul

[flint wadi]

in the first silkheart cutscene

[dapper willow]

Mods are strangely absent from this pit of misery discussion channel

[flint wadi]

our waking etc

[dapper willow]

Royal we
Thats my take

[obsidian quail]

how so

[mighty jolt]

Because she's the first sinner?

[obsidian quail]

the first sinner doesn’t mean the first to be punished

[mighty jolt]

Uh...

[errant hare]

uh

[mighty jolt]

Yeah it kinda does.

[obsidian quail]

Hitler started a movement would he have been the first to be punished

or does it depend on when they get captured

[mighty jolt]

I feel like that's way more of a stretch than the arguments you have argued against.

[zinc pivot]

Team cherry isn’t hitler

[obsidian quail]

that’s true

[obsidian quail]

u can acknowledge someone as the First Sinner regardless of when they get punished? she’s clearly shown to be a leader/progenitor figure

[flint wadi]

first sinner is a mummy in her cage, nothing about her inplies that she was captured alongside the weaverspawn, shes clearly of the same time as all the other weavers in the spires, which werent captured but immoralized after their deaths

[mighty jolt]

We know of like 10 lines of text related to First Sinner and your argument is that one of the most prominent of them isn't actually particularly relevant, that she wasn't the first sinner to be imprisoned.

[vivid kernel]

is silk soul

[obsidian quail]

and we have no idea when First Sinner was captured relative to other Weavers

[dapper willow]

This is the second time ss discussion brings up that real life event

Maybe we shouldnt do that

[flint wadi]

yes we do, shes a mummy just like other first weavers

[mighty jolt]

Unless you take her name literally, in which case we absolutely do.

[zinc pivot]

So yeah
I guess First Sinner played martyr to show weavers the truth

[obsidian quail]

the Weaver spire is a better point than the first sinner name

[dapper willow]

Yes it is

[zinc pivot]

After which they made plan to seal GMS away

[obsidian quail]

how did those Weavers who were in the spires die

[mighty jolt]

I think there are only really three real standpoints I can see:

1. She was imprisoned by GMS for telling the weavers of their origin
2. She was imprisoned by the weavers for telling the citizens of the weaver's origin.
3. She was imprisoned by the weavers for telling the weavers of their origin, and they didn't believe her.

[dense socket]

What real life event?

[obsidian quail]

do we know

[obsidian quail]

i think the first one requires the least assumptions because the second two require insane assumptions about First Sinner

[mighty jolt]

By weaver spires do you mean the things you bind skills from?

[obsidian quail]

yes

[flint wadi]

doesnt addup with the timeline

[obsidian quail]

and the third one isn’t possible because weavers know they aren’t divine

[flint wadi]

🤷‍♂️

[obsidian quail]

IDK WHAT IS PURPOSEFUL FROM TC

THEY FORGET THINGS

[dapper willow]

Dont worry about it

[mighty jolt]

They did later, they definitely didn't at the start.

[zinc pivot]

Present counter argument?

[obsidian quail]

they did before GMS was put to sleep

the problem with relying on visuals is i don’t think it’s reliable when TC forgets things

even fromsoft does that

[mighty jolt]

Which bit of lore confirms that? I keep see you saying that but I don't actually know where that's stated.

[flint wadi]

sure

[obsidian quail]

it’s hard to know what’s purposeful

[errant hare]

I feel like it's just a solid principle of theorycrafting to take what we are shown in the game to be intentionally put in the game...

[dapper willow]

Doe stc even have a lore document somewhere??

[obsidian quail]

the weavenests

[zinc pivot]

So the way i see it is
First Sinner found out, pull at least 11 more into her rebellion
GMS quell her and made the weavers imprison them
Weavers see how controlling GMS is and decide to seal her

[flint wadi]

^, i also dont think they forgot anything only if its in relation to hk lorebits

[obsidian quail]

yeah but tc is already known to retcon and forget pre established stuff and even other big games we analyze the visuals and it was just assets in the end

[zinc pivot]

Because weavers wouldn’t have a reason to seal GMS otherwise

[dapper willow]

Thats actually pretty interedting

[obsidian quail]

the issue is we see citadel aesthetic of First Sinner’s imprisonment

[flint wadi]

sure, i guess the cage couldve been put into the slab

[flint wadi]

right, SEE i literally start forgetting details

[obsidian quail]

but we also don’t know GMS era even looked like

[flint wadi]

couldnt really be anything like the conductor citadel

it would be very weavenest like

[obsidian quail]

and we don’t see anything from GMS era

like where tf even was she

[flint wadi]

i guess the counterargument could be that maybe first sinner was mummified in gms era (as a punishment) and the citadel merely touched up her cage

[obsidian quail]

we see no architecture or anything from her era

[obsidian quail]

see at that point we’re just making the same amount of speculations that prevented me from going the Weaver route

[mighty jolt]

I think the most likely thing from her era is the scene we see in the post-widow cutscene.

[obsidian quail]

WHATEVER I GIVE UP

[mighty jolt]

A weavenest like area where a bunch of weavers are perpetually playing harps for a glowing heavenly light above.

[flint wadi]

it not being obvious isnt entirely a bad thing

its fun to connect the dots by excluding things that dont work

[errant hare]

The main thing we can do is make conjectures that don't contradict the points we can see yeah

I feel like the Citadel had to have been around for some of the GMS era though bc of Phantom

Why would she be employed at the Exhaust Organ if the Citadel wasn't around for the Organ to expel waste for basically

[zinc pivot]

Its also interesting that Lace forgot about her sister

[flint wadi]

the common sentiment is that she popped in at an impass between conductor rule and haunting

[zinc pivot]

Like she has no reaction if we come from Phantoms route whatsoever

[obsidian quail]

yeah but i can’t help but feel like it wasn’t intentional, i feel like they expect us to know who did it at the very least

[zinc pivot]

Samey old dialogue

[flint wadi]

gms' influence creeping up on the citadel could allow her to introduce phantom there

[vivid kernel]

am i the only one who was expecting citadel to be a massive city full of npcs and buildings

[flint wadi]

everyone did bud

[zinc pivot]

Wild theory, what if phantom was made AFTER First Sinner was sealed

[vivid kernel]

a bit disappointing

[zinc pivot]

And thats what piss weavers off

[flint wadi]

sadly the citadel is more haunted than we expected it to be

[zinc pivot]

They saw how expendable they are

[flint wadi]

ss was pivoted into being a mirror of HK rather than a fullon new story

[errant hare]

Eva's containment unit does look very similar to Phantom's

Likely the same technology

Wait now that I think about it didnt we see similar tech in the Soul Sanctum too?

[vivid kernel]

would be cool to see hallownest renewed

[tiny steeple]

Wait the phantom was imprisoned?

[errant hare]

The containment units seem more focused on keeping silk based lifeforms alive

[mighty jolt]

Sorta? She was in some sort of holding tank at one point or another.

[zinc pivot]

Containment units doesn’t really fare for any resemblance of technology

[obsidian quail]

and doesn’t First Sinner’s needolin dialogue say “Wait and hate, Wait and die” similar to the other Weaver dialogues about them waiting?

she seems to heavily aligned with everything Weavers stand for

[mighty jolt]

Hey now let's do this all over again! Did GMS unmask widow, or did the weavers! ROUND 2! FIGHT!

[obsidian quail]

whatever i’m done thinking about it, just give me my ancient civilization game TC

[errant hare]

Okay I think that one was decidedly not the Weavers lol

The amount of messed-up that'd be

[obsidian quail]

i think GMS did that

and as a fanatic, Widow accepted it

she’s a nutcase

[errant hare]

My first thought was that Widow was the "Weaver in quarter part, staked to service" mentioned in Cradle, but she looks a lot more than 25% Weaver

[zinc pivot]

Why did widow accept having the harness though

[obsidian quail]

u mean the pins?

[zinc pivot]

Yeh

[obsidian quail]

GMS doesn’t want her to use her silk

[errant hare]

They seem a little hard to remove

[zinc pivot]

Like what sin amounts to essentially restricting your movement

[errant hare]

I think it was more about rendering Widow dependent on GMS for Silk

[mighty jolt]

Yeah that seems to be the most likely answer. She made Widow unable to betray GMS.

[obsidian quail]

Widow seems to be everything the Weavers fear from GMS, i don’t think GMS wants any Weavers free and outside of her control

Widow is like the black sheep or that one meme

[zinc pivot]

Actually i got another wild take
The weavers that played song for GMS, she was afraid of them
That’s why in cradle we see all harps destroyed with a memory of Widow
And Widow was the result of GMS using intimidation tactic on weavers, to ensure no song will ever play again

[mighty jolt]

I think the opposite is true.

[zinc pivot]

That’s how weavers know song is GMS weakness

[mighty jolt]

I think that GMS liked song, in moderation.

[errant hare]

She mostly hated it used against her/to manipulate and imprison her

But I think the theory is sound!

[manic pewter]

oh my god this is awful

[mighty jolt]

GMS was clearly awake in the post-widow cutscene, and the cutscene text is "For her light... eternal... our song sustains."

[zinc pivot]

The bloodborne moment of silksong

[mighty jolt]

I think that was the pre-rebellion era, and GMS had them play music to sustain her power and worship her. The citadel was likely able to be created because they knew she was soothed by the music so they pretended they were just doing it out of worship to her, only for it to secretly be a trap for perpetual music that keeps her eternally asleep.

[obsidian quail]

okay so going off that, do u think perhaps GMS era architecture was similar to citadel architecture? because it revolved around the music symbols?

music was a big part of GMS era

the iconography could have been the same or similar?

we know they were all playing the music via the instrument that matches the iconography of the citadel during gms era

[errant hare]

I mean it is possible that the bellways were GMS era. They're said to be from ancient ancient Pharloom, the largest one is in the Citadel, and the bell is seen as an acceptable replacement to Silk's cocoon in religious iconography.

[mighty jolt]

I think the end of GMS era was her being happily worshipped as a god in her new citadel made by her loyal weaver servants and going "alright guys I'm gonna take a nap".

How long between its creation and the nap is unclear.

[obsidian quail]

my main criticism with the lore and world building is the most formative years that leads to the plot we see is completely blank

like the void century in one piece

[mighty jolt]

Yeah it's pretty frustrating.

Just got to wait for silksong episode 1600 or so to find out what happened.

On a maybe related maybe unrelated note; any clue what the "Song Eater" became? It shows on an old map of pharloom from september 2018, and it's located below the prison.

[terse warren]

Songs are important to keep GMS dormant. It sounds more probable the bell iconography is from Weaver times or Choir times

[errant hare]

Mightve been adapted into Bell Eater?

[scenic stirrup]

My friend is extremely convinced that silk song is a prequel how do i get him to shut up 😭

[normal plank]

your friend is probably rage baiting

[mighty jolt]

If he plays the game he will be proven wrong.

[brisk thunder]

just smile and nod

[mighty jolt]

Alternatively, you could show him the Sister of the Void ending cutscene if he has no plans to play the game.

[mint furnace]

I don’t think the citadel used anesthesia

[scenic stirrup]

Hes finished it till act 3

[mighty jolt]

Well if he finished act 3, he'll get his answer.

[mint furnace]

There’s a lot of stuff before act 3 that still confirms it as a sequel though

Like random journal entries

The entirety of red memory

[terse warren]

Then he's just ragebaiting lmao

[mighty jolt]

But act 3 is extremely explicit about it.

[terse warren]

Red memory is act 3

[scenic stirrup]

He says that the knight probably sensed hornet and remembered her so he made the journey to hallownest

I am gonna smile and nod chatters 💀

[obsidian quail]

and hornet references hollow knight

[mighty jolt]

Then show him the godhome ending cutscene.

[terse warren]

He's just ragebaiting just ignore him lol

[flint wadi]

why would they, any pain and suffering recieved is a holy test to your faith and devotion

[obsidian quail]

show me a Black Wyrm TC screw those stupid Weavers

[mint furnace]

Silk is good for you, don’t you know???

[scenic stirrup]

Nah he isn't he isnt the type to do that

[terse warren]

"Patient refuses to revive"

[scenic stirrup]

I feel like silk song is a prequel will be the new hornet is void meme

[mint furnace]

I still love that Hornet just is completely fine using random used needles she finds on the floor

Girl boss behavior

[flint wadi]

not enough thoughts and prayers

[obsidian quail]

TC another Wyrm please

let Hornet meet her other side

uncle wyrm

[terse warren]

I do think more Wyrm info would be peak

[mint furnace]

What’s up, I’m black wyrm, pale kings third cousin removed

That’s a scene ripped straight from zoteboat

[terse warren]

But it's gonna be a 50/50 between the Wyrms never being mentioned again or them being the worst fan service slop ever

[mint furnace]

Oh we get a wyrm it’s pale king glaze all the way 100%

And I’m there for all of it

[terse warren]

TC would never glaze PK did you even play Silksong

We get a Wyrm TC is gonna tell us some shit about how PK was a delusional moron and every other Wyrm is very smart, watch it happen

[mint furnace]

Inconceivable

[terse warren]

I'm calling the slander right here right now

[obsidian quail]

cinema

i wanna see Hornet converse with one of these

[mighty jolt]

I mean I feel like HK already did enough of that; it's literally the entire world going yo WTF I thought you had future sight?

[terse warren]

Also those are just snail shamans

[obsidian quail]

and get some cool world lore

[terse warren]

Me when you should give source

[mint furnace]

I think he just had brain damage, but he’s got the spirit

[ebon silo]

TEAM CHERRY THE FANS NEED MORE WYRMS

[obsidian quail]

these guys seem to know what’s going on

[brisk thunder]

hk white lady and ss greyroot = same race (which is not a bug)

so another wyrm might be possible, but maybe not in ss plot

[obsidian quail]

they just look like they have all the answers

[terse warren]

HK gave us so much PK glaze

[mint furnace]

I wonder after we get a couple silksong dlcs, what are they gonna do next

[ebon silo]

Wait did greyroot even said her and white lady are the same race

[mint furnace]

A different universe or another HK game with quirrel or someone

[errant hare]

i do find it funny and also a bit tragic that Hornet spends so much of Silksong going "gods, my father was a fool, incompetent, doomed everyone to the void, couldn't stop tinkering with things he didn't understand" while in the same breath going "incredible technology, I wonder how I can adapt this for my own use...a soul snare to imprison a god, no cost too great...yes, I do have an affinity for radial blades why do you ask, aaand now the kingdom is doomed to void because I messed with things I didn't understand."

[terse warren]

If you only look at the surface it's slander but you actually take a look at it it's glaze

[mighty jolt]

It was literally "dude killed a ton of kids, his plan failed, and he ran away".

[terse warren]

What part of "stopping at the surface" did you miss

[mighty jolt]

Oh and died

[mint furnace]

Okay i mean if you take the last 1 year or so of his reign sure he looks like a bitch

[obsidian quail]

PK is smiling and shaking his head from the bug afterlife

[terse warren]

Hornet is a moron and doesn't realize PK's plan allowed Hallownest to Prosper the longest

[ebon silo]

Yeah he's deep in hell bro

[errant hare]

Like conbined with the Red Memory line about "prove you are more Weaver than Wyrm" I feel like Hornet pretty heavily internalized that and struggles to acknowledge how much she is very much her father's daughter as well

[ebon silo]

Ain't no god forgiving him for what he just did

[terse warren]

Dawg he IS god

[mighty jolt]

It was quite a bit of his reign.

[ebon silo]

He is just one of the many wyrms not the god

[mint furnace]

PK was too busy raising his other child so he could stuff them in an egg

[terse warren]

Which probably doesn't even exist

I doubt bug afterlife is even real in HK

[obsidian quail]

u forgot he said no cost too great

counterpoint!

[mint furnace]

Lemme put it this way

Would you rather be a citizen in the working class of hallownest, or loam

[ebon silo]

https://tenor.com/view/the-radiance-hollow-knight-pale-king-watch-your-tone-watch-your-tone-mf-gif-25105189

[obsidian quail]

i’d rather be dead than be in pharshit

[mint furnace]

Exactly

Point proven, pale king slander will no longer be tolerated

[terse warren]

The sacrifices PK made ensure the (temporary) survival of countless bugs

[manic pewter]

Yeah if we're talking about both at their heights, hallownest is FAR better

[mint furnace]

I will say he’s an idiot when it came to the vessels

[terse warren]

Nuh uh

[mint furnace]

Just train all 10,000 of them and sic them on the radiance?

[obsidian quail]

if THK didn’t fail then the bugs would have been thriving

[ebon silo]

right by sacrificing children to the problem

[terse warren]

They had to climb out and also he didn't know you could punch the radiance to death

[mint furnace]

One little runt kills god himself basically I’m sure all of them could do it easily

[obsidian quail]

PK was peak ruler

[ebon silo]

he was yes he was

[obsidian quail]

in his heyday

[mint furnace]

Why don’t you START with punching

[terse warren]

Yeah? He's based for that

Because she doesn't have a physical body the fuck you gonna punch

[manic pewter]

bro is a PURE utilitarian

[mighty jolt]

To be fair he literally couldn't. You needed the awakened dream nail to access the area she is in and he didn't have that.

[mint furnace]

I still like the random crack theory I thought of were the entire vessel plan was just to sacrifice herrah so he could finally get a tram into deepnest

[ebon silo]

How did he seal him using the HK anyway

[obsidian quail]

honestly do we even know he had as many citizens as the amount of dead babies down there

cuz there were a fuckton

it gets to a point

[zinc pivot]

No cost too great

[mint furnace]

Hallownest probably had an insane amount of people at its peak

[errant hare]

"gods i love public transit"

[obsidian quail]

hallownest isn’t very big or is it 2D warping my perception

[terse warren]

"I am NOT allowing that fuckass spider to ruin my tram system"

[ebon silo]

PK is like smart so why didn't bro just train 10k vessels then ask the moths for 10k dream nails

[mint furnace]

2D warping

[terse warren]

There's only one dream nail

[mint furnace]

Also they probably lost like 50% of their population to the infection or people running away

[obsidian quail]

is the City of Tears much bigger than in game

[terse warren]

And again, the Vessels had to climb out

[obsidian quail]

in reality

[errant hare]

It's huge yeah

[terse warren]

Said population would've become dumb

[ebon silo]

We have a thing called elevator

[terse warren]

Ain't no one about to start constructing an ELEVATOR in the abyss 😭

[obsidian quail]

so realistically it’s no smaller than pharloom in verse

[terse warren]

Also the climb was also a test of purity

[mint furnace]

“Sir, but the radiance”

“Thats tomorrow’s problem, get the workers building the rail”

[manic pewter]

i mean they built a lighthouse

[ebon silo]

We have 10k vessels we can just make one go inside then if that vessel loses we just make another use the dream nail again and over and over

[errant hare]

Granted the Dream Nail also didn't exist on this plane of reality when PK did his thing

[terse warren]

"The infectious bulges will light up the room, they won't even need lanterns"

[zinc pivot]

I think the climb wasn’t a test of any kind
Pale King just doesn’t expect more than one child to survive the void and come back a vessel

[mint furnace]

DORMAMMU IVE COME TO BARGAIN

[ebon silo]

You see I'm way smarter than PK I did infact took the photo of the battle of the blackwyrm and survived it

[obsidian quail]

is Hallownest just as big as pharloom in reality?

[errant hare]

Oh I do think Pharloom is bigger

[obsidian quail]

but budget wise we couldn’t see the true scale?

[zinc pivot]

Nah Pharloom is twice as bigger

[errant hare]

But that's only bc half of Pharloom isn't really Pharloom

It's five kingdoms in a trenchcoat

[terse warren]

Pharloom's probably bigger on account of being a capitalist dystopia

[mint furnace]

In both games the kingdom expands past what we see

[terse warren]

Considering JUST the cities Pharloom easily wins

[zinc pivot]

So we put Citadel, Slab, Blasted Steps, Greymoor, Sinners Road, Deep Docks as Pharloom territory?

[mint furnace]

Pharloom has a bigger city because it abuses the working class

[ebon silo]

Bellhart

[manic pewter]

i mean we are able to see all the way right, up and down, left is really the only way more stuff could be, and do we really think theres more past mount fay

[zinc pivot]

Almost forgot

[mint furnace]

3d space

[manic pewter]

oh also thought yall might like this considering current discussion

[ebon silo]

Y'know we gotta go back to my question hold on how does hornet knows phantom like how'd she knew her name

[mint furnace]

We already know shakra and garmond consider their villages to be pharloom, and we can’t find those

[errant hare]

I think she doesn't lol

[mint furnace]

So I think it’s all pharloom

[ebon silo]

Journal

[mint furnace]

Pale king and GMS had an affair at one point

Big drama

[ebon silo]

Maybe freedom of speech shouldn't be free

Everyone stop didn't TC said there was going to be like a region full of lions

Like wasn't there a full discussion for that

[errant hare]

I feel like not all of the journal names are explicitly known by Hornet. Like Lace's name never shows up in dialogue really.

[mint furnace]

Team cherry purged half the villages

[ebon silo]

For all we know phantom could be named shoe

[manic pewter]

new headcanon for sure

[errant hare]

I think just Garmond/Zaza, Shakra and her master seem to be from the same travelling tribe as Elder Hu in Hallownest

[obsidian quail]

maybe the random noises that phantom makes, one of them she is saying hello i am phantom

[mint furnace]

My one headcanon on bug language is GARAMA is some sort of weaver slur because whenever says it to one they instantly attack her

[zinc pivot]

Garmond comes from a pharloom village

[ebon silo]

or it's just "hey you"

[zinc pivot]

Hes a native

[ebon silo]

is it me or do I hear him say senzu bean

[errant hare]

Yes thats what I just said lol

[zinc pivot]

You did?

[manic pewter]

I would love for someone to compile all the voice lines across hk and ss and see if theres any actual etymology

[errant hare]

Garmond and Zaza come from a village in Pharloom, Shakra doesn't

[ebon silo]

She comes from some tribe of somewhere and she also just happened to be a cartographer

[zinc pivot]

I read that wrong then

[ebon silo]

Lucky us

Oh how the stars aligned we get kidnapped to pharloom and it also just happens that shakras was traveling

[terse warren]

The connection is a bit loose ngl rings barely look similar

[errant hare]

They also have the same exact shade of yellow shawl

[zinc pivot]

Shaknet is canon /s

[ebon silo]

could be elder hu

[terse warren]

And instead of armor the guy wore a cloth

[ebon silo]

Hornet would be too old though

[mint furnace]

You forget the vision

Shaklacenet

[mighty jolt]

I'd like to just remind everyone that elder hu is a doctor and therefore his appropriate title is Doctor Hu.

[tribal cargo]

SOMEONE TELL ME HE IS ALIVE RIGHT NOW AND ONLY RESTINGGG PLEASEEEE 😭

[errant hare]

And both Elder Hu and Shakra's master have heavy beads around their neck

[terse warren]

He ded

[mint furnace]

I got bad news

[zinc pivot]

Nah he ded

[mighty jolt]

He's alive in our memories

[tribal cargo]

NOOOOOO NOOOO NOOOO ARGHHHH

[mint furnace]

He died fighting for what he believed in

[tribal cargo]

NOOOOOO WHYYY TC WHYYY

HOW DO YALL KNOW HE IS DEADDD 😭 ISNT HE ONLY RESTING

[mighty jolt]

So maybe if you do some really fancy snail magic you can pull another him out of your memories IDK

[ebon silo]

I was the one who poisoned bro

he's dead bro like dead dead

[zinc pivot]

No needolin dialogue

[mint furnace]

Ok John void

I still wish we could adopt Zaza

[mighty jolt]

He is resting... in peace.

[zinc pivot]

Is void a john if they are nonbinary

[ebon silo]

Or a jack

[errant hare]

maybe a jiminy

[mint furnace]

John as in the meme of “John” (non gendered) thing

[ebon silo]

or a jane

[mint furnace]

Like John carpenter, wonder what they do

[tribal cargo]

FKKKK 😭 HE REALLY DONT REACT TO MY NEEDOLINNN 😭 NOOOO PLEASE NO

[zinc pivot]

I know but im putting a twist

[errant hare]

i wonder if the soul in void is prior pale higher beings that cant exactly form properly anymore

hence why its always seeking out more soul

try and fail to self repair

[ebon silo]

mangos = 6, mustard = 7 67 = 6+7 = 13 = alphabet count to 13 = M make it horizontal = sigma = put it back to vertical you get the first letter for massive

[zinc pivot]

Had a stroke, can you rephrase

[ebon silo]

I wonder what kind of mates did hornet had

[zinc pivot]

Floofy

[mint furnace]

Bees

[errant hare]

I wonder if the pale light we see in void liquid is the remains of previous higher beings that can't come back to life or reform, so they try to seek the souls of other bugs to repair themselves but it's a hopeless task.

[ebon silo]

I'm assuming there was this bee who called hornet hornet because of how much she stings him all the time

[mint furnace]

Idk who made it but my friend just dmed me this

[zinc pivot]

So the void in your words is the carcass of higher beings

[rancid condor]

There is a pale light in the void liquid?

[zinc pivot]

Shade eyes i suppose

Like how tf does darkness emit light

[ebon silo]

because it does stop questioning divinity before you become another first sinner

[manic pewter]

call me second sinner

[zinc pivot]

Its the void not Ghost Rider

[drifting apex]

What exactly is the cogwork core area supposed to be? Like what purpose does it serve in the citadel? Is it where every mechanical thing is manufactured?

[zinc pivot]

Its the engine for the rest of citadels construct

Without it elevators dont work, doors dont work, harpoon ferris wheels dont work

[errant hare]

Not to mention it seems to be a critical component to the Cradle's containment of Silk

Given that the machines designed to sing the melody of the Architects forever is right beneath GMS

[zinc pivot]

Speaking of which, what caused the citadel to fall in silence i wonder

[manic pewter]

was that not just gms taking over bug so they stopped singing?

[zinc pivot]

Well songs are making her eepy though

[mighty jolt]

The initial haunting

[fallow spindle]

at first i thought most haunted bugs just sing because they want to but they look controlled by us making a song lol

[zinc pivot]

So haunting is gradual

[fallow spindle]

for the non infected ones they just sing normal

but for the ones that are already affected by silk they pose so weirdlt

[mighty jolt]

The weavers were stupid, and to create eternally loyal bugs they surgically infused them with silk and GMS possessed them through that.

[ebon silo]

Stupid and greedy

Like why would you bite the hand that feeds you

[twin dragon]

I assume he would, js like he did with hornet

[drifting apex]

I see

[twin dragon]

Also i think voidheart makes the void recognize the knight as an authority figure

The void seems to act on its own even when the knight is present

[manic pewter]

Yeah like the knight doesnt protecc us when we just fall in before we get everbloom

[twin dragon]

Him controlling the entirety of the void would make some events in the first game nonsensical

[zinc pivot]

If your mom imprisoned you for finding out you were adopted how would you react

Or tear your face off because your music makes her too sleepy for a day

[mighty jolt]

oh no we're on the voidheart discussion no

But yeah GMS was pretty awful

[vagrant wadi]

how does hornet go from the hollownest to where silksong take place

[twin dragon]

Weavers had the greed in their genes

No surprise to know where it comes from

[modest coyote]

btw the hollowknight earth could be flat

[manic pewter]

huh

[fresh badger]

@past glacier Lace is a being made entirely of silk so the white stuff you see is her body

[fallow spindle]

the fact that theres offline scores for the minigames showcasing each and every characters skills is hilarious

[ebon silo]

I would forgive her

[zinc pivot]

Your poor childhood

[ebon silo]

y'know I'm genuinely starting to think flat earthers just want a free ride to space

[fallow spindle]

nothing disproving that ingame

[modest coyote]

I Mean for world design it would be easier

[zinc pivot]

Nor anything that proves

[modest coyote]

we have never actually seen surface with sunlight

[fallow spindle]

maybe they live in a hollow world lol

ehhhh ehhhh

[zinc pivot]

It’s interesting how the flies in silksong provide substantial light equaling to the sun

Like every place that isnt karak, bilewater, putrefied ducts, blasted steps, have vivid lighting

Well marrow and deep docks have lava so it can be excluded

[errant hare]

It's also possible that the standard for 'lots of light' is in fact entirely skewed by the fact that we are playing from the perspective of bugs adapted to living in underground caves

Like the Abyss should realistically be actually impossible to see anything in

[modest coyote]

counterpoint its a bug game

noone cares about physical reality its a game about magic bugs

realism is completely irrelavent to the worldbuiding

[zinc pivot]

Still begs the question of
Does HK planet have a sun of sort

[manic pewter]

ok but its still interesting to discuss

[quartz salmon]

i looooove that we have new abyss creatures

and that hornet sees the gloomsacks and is like ok what the fuck im actually scared

[zinc pivot]

The glooms are very alien like

[quartz salmon]

i do not like the noises they make

[zinc pivot]

Congrats TC has successfully scared you

[errant hare]

not anymore!

[zinc pivot]

The fact that fauna survive in abyss is quite an interesting thing already

[errant hare]

I'm almost certain them "subsisting on nothing" is a worldbuilding pun lol

As in they subsist on void liquid, which is in fact nothingness incarnate

[zinc pivot]

Slurp void soup for breakfast lunch and dinner

[quartz salmon]

yeah theyre at a level of complete symbiosis with the void they just have it running through them

[zinc pivot]

Can it top yumama

[quartz salmon]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1380233368523898991/1422185256311586848/image0.gif

[trim lark]

why did the citadel station a whole militia at conductor balladors front porch

[manic pewter]

my ass did NOT realise phantom uses they/them

[trim lark]

like i get they were revived by thread but that would require corpses
why were there so many

[errant hare]

Well the area is called The Forum it was likely a gathering place for the elite in general

[zinc pivot]

Because they are the security of basically the prime minister of citadels government

[ebon silo]

Probably because hornet can't tell

[trim lark]

i mean they certainly werent up for talking

[zinc pivot]

No Phantussy to tell

[manic pewter]

yeah ig "frayed form" would make gender difficult to discern

[cold axle]

i think we're probably intended to expect she/her, because of the mirror section where lace calls them "Sister"

[quartz salmon]

bad quality but the forum is probably like a classroom or a conference hall you can see a lot of dead bugs in the auditorium

[cold axle]

but it could be a she/they sort of thing, or different textures to identity

[modest coyote]

for lore reasons i am pretty sure phantom is a woman

[trim lark]

im not even too sure what the conductors do

i would assume theyre in charge of making prayers and songs but is that the 'heaviest mantle to bear' by the citadels standards

[modest coyote]

consider that literally every other "child" GMS "makes" is a woman

it seems pretty deliberate

[trim lark]

so like a congress room or somethin?

[errant hare]

They're the ones that keep Grand Mother Silk imprisoned and govern the kingdom

[zinc pivot]

Conductors lead the citadel after weavers left no?

[quartz salmon]

well yeah conducting the bugs to play the song that keeps a god asleep sounds like a heavy mantle

[trim lark]

ive no bloody clue

[modest coyote]

"yeah i made all the weavers female. also lace. then i decided to make a lil change with phantom"

[cold axle]

"forum" is definitely intended to be the classic greek term

as in, a public space for debate and learning

[modest coyote]

so for this reason i reckon phantom is female

[cold axle]

i mean, phantom can be bio fem and use they/them pronouns

[trim lark]

the architects and keepers have very easy to define purposes
the conductors are lot more vague especially since there was 1 alive conductor with a foot in the grave

[quartz salmon]

i think phantom is a they them cause the game says so

[errant hare]

I don't think Phantom or Lace have any bio to fem lol

[cold axle]

the specific use of "Sister" by Lace casts some doubt on that, but it could be the case

[modest coyote]

either lace is bigotted or hornet just didnt bother asking

[cold axle]

i mean, hornet can canonically talk

and didn't talk to phantom

[trim lark]

phantom did an angry organ slam and got immediately to fighting i dont think there was space for talking

[cold axle]

so there were no words, only exactly what we saw

[cold axle]

explicitly untrue, hornet says so fucking clearly that they're alive

they got that weird fucked up silk biology, but that's still biology

[errant hare]

Alive does not mean having an organic body they're also explicitly made only of silk

[manic pewter]

i actually got to slam an organ of that scale (a hall that can hold like 500 pplish) and yeah it makes you want to start fighting someone, the ENERGY

[cold axle]

i mean, silk seems to be straight up a form of Soul, which is pretty organic

[cold axle]

phantom has the fucking NKG aura

the immediate DOOT slam

always peak

[wheat pond]

I just returned from the abyss and there's something I don't understand... why were binding Silk or trapping Silk in the void the only options? At that point couldn't Hornet just murder her?

[quartz salmon]

hornet didnt really know the Shamans would do that

didnt anticipate their soul trap summoning the damn Shade lord

[trim lark]

the only good way for hornet to have killed gms were to bind her
which would have made her the new monarch, as seen in the normal end

also yeah she didnt know the fully extent of the trap, even if she had an inkling as a result of previous knowledge of shamans

[wheat pond]

ok but the point of the trap was so that she woudn't have to bind Silk and change, becoming her essentially. Why go with the trap instead of just destroying her?

[cold axle]

absorbing her was the only way hornet knew to kill her

[errant hare]

I think it's also mostly that like the shamans remark, there really aren't many ways to get rid of the power of a higher being besides void.

[cold axle]

that's the point

the method of destroying silk hornet had available to her was binding and mantling

[manic pewter]

my understanding was that gms's second phase is showing that hornet can't just stabby stab her to death, so she resorts to binding

[wheat pond]

ok so there was no way for Hornet to kill her without binding her?

[trim lark]

hell even in the cutscene itself i think hornet wouldve been done for if lace didnt appear i doubt killing her was possible

[cold axle]

and she doesn't want to do that

[wheat pond]

I think the way the binding ending was done in the game was awesome btw, with the masks changing and her silk meter becoming enormous

[cold axle]

so she gets the snails, who are deranged hermit bozos as always, being lying fucks that dick around with weird spooky magic

[quartz salmon]

yeah it really looks like the only way to definitively kill a higher being (that we know of) is with void

[ebon silo]

I mean what the fuck can you do with it anyway othe than fucking around

[cold axle]

or with another higher being!

hornet was god enough to eat another god

[trim lark]

you can attempt to mold it to your desires

this usually failed

[cold axle]

she just didn't want to eat

[manic pewter]

yeah my reaction was pure SHOCK when i noticed it changing

[summer pendant]

doesn't seem clear to me. While it's true that the void got to the pale king's retainers, the pale king was neither engulfed nor streaked with void

[ebon silo]

I can attempt it to mold my desires..? 😛

[errant hare]

and they're all like "what'd you expect lol we're SNAILS that's kinda our entire shtick come on you have to have expected this. lol."

[wheat pond]

that and the ascent from the abyss were peak gaming. Like the whole cradle section, both endings, + the whole abyss part with descent and return are a masterpiece

[quartz salmon]

its okay, you can either believe he was claimed by it, or he died in some other way, or maybe that he changed form again! thats the most fun answer for me even tho theres not really any proof for it

[cold axle]

yeah, literally the first thing we ever see a snail do in hollow knight is be a shifty fuck that only-technically-doesn't-lie to you

[manic pewter]

oh yeah the climb out of the abyss was SO peak

[dry heart]

why can knight collect soul while hornet not? is it cause of WL or

[cold axle]

while teaching you shady black fucking sorcery with shadier means

[ebon silo]

His ass changed to the kings soul

[manic pewter]

yeah like mf literally just locks you in a prison and is like "go kill a thing"

[cold axle]

hornet definitely collects soul. what else do you think the silk is?

she can produce some herself, and she can also take it from other creatures (except the soulless automatons)

including the surface bugs with no silk in them

[trim lark]

honestly the one thing i never got was like
aint that shaman strong enough to deal with a couple baldurs

[manic pewter]

wait but she can get silk from like the cogwork dancers tho

[quartz salmon]

id love for that to be true but since he is holding a piece and WL is also holding the other idk how that would work

[cold axle]

those motherfuckers absolutely have some soul in em

[dry heart]

and also why does greyroot die after cursing us

[cold axle]

like listen to the green prince's dialogue, you can't convince me otherwise

[manic pewter]

oh wait yeah im an idiot nvm

[trim lark]

my best guess is that their purpose was done

[errant hare]

One of the funnest details for lore implications regarding this is that Hornet can't absorb soul from the soul vessels in Groal's hut

[manic pewter]

yeah it could just be that their species dies when they reproduce

[trim lark]

after all who would guess theres a surgeon in pharloom that could just so happen counter your entire plan

[quartz salmon]

i think the lil puppet greyroot petrifies but the larger system is alive and she is being activelly reborn inside hornet and thats what the ending shows

[cold axle]

nah, it's not reproduction, it's rebirth

[errant hare]

Which implies that that specifically is something you need Focus for

[cold axle]

the parasite inside hornet probably is greyroot

who's cast off her old shell

[manic pewter]

oh so the little ashroot we collect is the same as greyroot?

like theyre the same bug?

[cold axle]

i'm not confident about that one!

[errant hare]

Cast Off Shell mentioned

[cold axle]

but i am pretty confident that the thing greyroot put inside hornet, however they used the screaming child, became greyroot

[quartz salmon]

id say yeah its the next iteration that gestates inside hornet and then absorbs both her and GMS to become a new greyroot higher being

[cold axle]

maybe the bud was like, a new vessel

[trim lark]

unrelated but i think wisp thicket is the most resistant bastion against gms and the citadel in general

[cold axle]

or maybe it was a sacrifice

[sage summit]

Wait how old is hornet again? I forget but she's lived through an entire kingdoms downfall

[manic pewter]

we dont know

[cold axle]

ambiguously old

[errant hare]

We dont really have time units in Hollow Knight lol

[manic pewter]

but we know her lifespan is many times that of the average bug

[cold axle]

old enough to have outlived several partners

[quartz salmon]

what if thats how white lady came about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! a greyroot takes control of a pale higher being and is reborn as white lady!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[errant hare]

I wanna work on coming up with standard units of measurement for the world for lore study purposes

[sage summit]

Those pale king genetics coming in clutch

[manic pewter]

The thing with hk and ss is its DIFFICULT to standardise stuff bc even looking at stuff like the rosaries, those are HUGE when compared in scale to irl rosaries

[trim lark]

just to name a couple things
the tool you get specifically from the area BURNS silk to function

the burning bugs will self immolate to make sure there arent corpses for the threads to control

the wisps in general are just fuckin weird, theyve got journal entries n shit but you cant collect a single silk from em

[cold axle]

we don't even know what a Root is, really, or what's responsible for a higher being being/becoming "pale", so i'd hold off on that speculation

[trim lark]

also the void doesnt reach the thicket at all

which is definitely on purpose

[cold axle]

all we know is that greyroot is not Pale, and the white lady is, and that they're both uh...Roots

[manic pewter]

wait which is the bone scroll you get in wisp thicket

[cold axle]

and that greyroot seems to be a higher being of some sort

[cold axle]

based on their ability to make something fucked up enough to parasitize hornet (and in such a way that it affects her soul), and their immunity to needolin

[trim lark]

besides being pretty effective against the citadels haunting threads theyre just fucking insane i guess

[quartz salmon]

nah higher beings always get special treatment they have large domains influence followers

greyroot is an organism probably complex and vast, a witch that curses you with her vessel

[cold axle]

whole-ass flame cult

[cold axle]

this is a pile of assumptions

[quartz salmon]

what about it is an assumption

[trim lark]

father of the flame is weird asl ngl
you can collect silk from machines filled with the remnants of others soul
but this weirdass scarecrow which DID HAVE somebody inside immolated alive, and that now seems to control said scarecrow doesnt give you ANY silk

[cold axle]

both lines

[trim lark]

and the closest thing i have to a reason is that the father of the flame was constantly using the wispfire inside, burning away any soul for us to take i guess??

[cold axle]

yeah the flame stuff in general is weird and fucked and i hope we get to learn more

[trim lark]

wisp thicket dlc real

[errant hare]

I mentioned this a bit ago in chat but I'm very certain the Grimm Troupe visited Pharloom at some point (likely Karak and Verdania) and left cultural artifacts behind in the form of "a grand stage performance ritual to enkindle the lingering embers of a dying kingdom" (Trobbio) and the fact that Father of the Flame is a ritual totem supposed to represent a god that is immolated with Needolin dialogue of "Feed us, free us!" (Burn the Father, Feed the Child)

[manic pewter]

Yeah wisp thicket seems resistant to everything, not just void

[trim lark]

well pharloom certainly seems to be chock full of nightmares, even before haunting

like every phase of this kingdom sucked balls

[dry heart]

so do you guys think greyroot could infect the knight

[trim lark]

they almost certainly arrived somehow

[fickle scarab]

yo this guy in vc says green prince isnt gay

[manic pewter]

LMAOOOOOOOOO

[quartz salmon]

so higher beings dont have followers or influence or large domains and
greyroot isnt a thing that spreads out and gives you the "witch crest" that "curses" you with something

these are things we observe in the games youre free to disprove them

[fickle scarab]

hes arguing so hard for that they never mentioned his lovers name

[trim lark]

the baby REALLY seems to not fuck with void
even if the everbloom, it doesnt allow you step into the void sea and makes you take 1 damage

[trim lark]

💔

[quartz salmon]

and ? he uses the word "he" i think thats proof enough

[cobalt coyote]

I mean isn't him being gay an assumption too?

[grim magnet]

He is bi of course yes

[cobalt coyote]

Dont remember

[dry heart]

not fucking with it doesnt mean unableness

[fickle scarab]

can someone help dude this guy is annoying

[robust wagon]

Well the hunter's journal calls him and his lover 'twin princes' or something like that so yeah he's gay

[cold axle]

greyroot being [an organism that isn't a higher being] despite having "a large domain and influence" in your own words, and the phrasing that implies higher beings aren't "organisms"

[cobalt coyote]

Yeah fair

[trim lark]

fair nough
i just feel like they wouldnt, out of fear of yknow void

[cold axle]

even though most of the gods we've seen are pretty physical, with the radiance (and maybe Silk, with her odd mechanical parts) being a notable exception

[fickle scarab]

"oh so now there incest" he says

[trim lark]

????

[cold axle]

i'm pretty sure it is ngl

[manic pewter]

WILD

[cold axle]

gay and incestuous, a package deal

[cold axle]

like they're pretty explicitly lovers, and they're also pretty explicitly uh...extremely physically similar

[hollow talon]

does anyone know about the origin of pale butterflies ? they seem to help us the entire game

[cold axle]

with heavy implications of that "dual" being "twin"

[cold axle]

lace innit?

maybe lace and phantom?

[hollow talon]

why would lace help us ?

[fickle scarab]

left weird homophobia in silksong 1

[cold axle]

they show up all around where she is

[cold axle]

?

[errant hare]

Spiting GMS mostly

[fickle scarab]

dude cannot fathom there are gay people in silksong

[vagrant wadi]

how does hornet go from the hollownest to where silksong is located?

[hollow talon]

so Lace and Phantom would use butterflies to help Hornet but then try to kill her ?

[cold axle]

bro needs to play hollow knight lmfao

"happy couple" with two bugs that are explicitly referred to in the masculine

[fickle scarab]

doesnt believe in the painter and nailmaster either lol

[cold axle]

have they considered cutting down on the diet of paint chips and glue?

[errant hare]

GMS wants to Bind Hornet, Lace wants to prevent that from happening either by killing Hornet before she reaches GMS or helping her.

[cold axle]

or possibly going back to elementary school so they can learn how to fuckin read

[hollow talon]

ooooh now i see, i like it

[terse warren]

They're never referred to as twins 😭

[cold axle]

sheo is a man, the nailsmith is a man, and unless you murder the nailsmith they become a couple

[chrome atlas]

The butterflies themselves are the last remnants of soul collected in Whiteward, and are also used to power cogwork constructs. As for why they help, we know that Lace probably sent the one at the beginning to keep Hornet from getting taken directly to GMS, while the ones in the Mist are possibly Phantom directing us to them so we can kill them in a fight? Or just that the butterflies are musically inclined, hence the needolin

[hollow talon]

there is also the lesbian couple between Lemer and Traitor Lord's daughter, right ?

[quartz salmon]

okay the large domain thing is the only thing you can dispute idk about organisms and non organisms i wasnt trying to make a point on that sorry if it came off that way

[cold axle]

yeah

or uhhh...zemer, right?

i swear there's a fuckin z in her name

[terse warren]

Ze'mer

[errant hare]

Butterflies definitely seem musically inclined Lace conducts them with her pin and humming in her first meeting too

[hollow talon]

sorry Ze'mer idk why I called her Lemer

[chrome atlas]

Zemer/Traitor Lord Daughter and Cloth and her gf were both lesbian relationships in HK

[cold axle]

letter off

[quartz salmon]

ze'mer the lamenter

[cold axle]

no big deal

[quartz salmon]

lemer

[cold axle]

cloth's relationship wasn't textually romantic, at least (afair)

[terse warren]

It wasn't

[cold axle]

so you could read that one as a sisterly bond or a deep friendship, just as you could read it as romantic or erotic

but the other two are just fucking text, yeah

[errant hare]

Seer turns into one in HK!

[chrome atlas]

Right, I thought it was explicitly romantic, mb

[cold axle]

none of the relationships in HK or SS draw any real attention to like, gender roles or [relationship identity] beyond affirmations of how the individual people involved identity

[hollow talon]

wait, the butterflies are lumaflies ?

[chrome atlas]

Probably not, they're just used the same

[hollow talon]

nvm then so the butterflies we see in SilkSong are basically made of silk

[fickle scarab]

was the first sinner in a relationship with Widow?

[hollow talon]

is Phantom another being made of silk just like Lace ?

[fickle scarab]

her imprisonment giving widow her name and their matrimony being the reason for their shared sound tracks

[hollow talon]

since it seems like they explode into silk

[fickle scarab]

phantom is laces sister

[vague whale]

I don't believe anything indicates that but it's an interesting ship at least

[hollow talon]

alr alr, thanks

[cold axle]

there's zero explicit evidence pointing to that, but if you want to interpret it that way i don't think anything's like

specifically barring it either

[narrow sky]

i think widows name comes from the spider species

[quartz salmon]

She's basically lace v.0

[cold axle]

they definitely share attack patterns and a leitmotif because they're both weavers

[fickle scarab]

she doesnt really look like one though does she?

[cold axle]

(which is why they share attacks with Silk as well)

[hollow talon]

oooh so Lace is the ultimate form of life GMS tried to do with only silk

[narrow sky]

she looks like someone put a sheet over their head

[errant hare]

The Weavers sharing that little scurry-slash attack Pharlids do always makes me sad but in like a wow the attention to lore detail way

[quartz salmon]

I mean does Hornet look like a Hornet

Do weavers look like orb weavers

[fickle scarab]

she was given her name by the hive

[quartz salmon]

I know

Just sayin names are names in these games
They're like based off of a real bug but it's very loose

[fickle scarab]

i think widow refers to one who has lost their spouse in this case what with the narrative of the weavers dying out. but reasonable minds will differ

[errant hare]

fun thought experiment: do we think all four Elegy of the Deep rulers combined could take on GMS

[cold axle]

probably not because afaik they're all "just" very powerful bugs

you need something fundamentally more to conclusively deal with a higher being, as far as we've seen

[errant hare]

Their power is supposedly 'equal at least to the monarch', Karmelita's song can prevent them from being haunted, Khann has good defense, Clover Dancers are solid counters to silk based attacks, but tbh all of this would really hinge on whether Nyleth could absorb a weakened GMS due to roots (like we see Twisted Bud do)

[cold axle]

if one of them had like, the ripped-off spine of a Wyrm maybe

but otherwise i suspect that they'd lose purely on account of lacking god bullshit to kill or stop her

and none of them seemed to have any soul-based magic to do Snail Fuckery either

but in terms of raw power, assuming hornet was just like...standing there in the background waiting to finish her once they've done the fight, i wouldn't be shocked if they could

[errant hare]

I do wonder if any Weaver could theoretically Bind a sufficiently weakened Silk or if that's something only Hornet could do on account of being extra empowered by her Wyrm half

[dry heart]

If you mean binding grandmother silk, hornet was able to do it cause it was weakened moreso than having very good binding powers

[tribal cargo]

Please tell me he is somewhere alive in act 3 😭😭😭

[dry heart]

If hornet bind strength was THAT super amazing no parasite would infect her

Or even simple maggots needing an entire bind to be removed

[ancient dock]

🥲

[quartz salmon]

Dw he's safe

[dry heart]

Get out of this channel mate this has nth to do with lore

[tribal cargo]

WHERE CAN I FIND HIM 😭

[errant hare]

Around where the fleas were at first

[quartz salmon]

Go where you first found the fleas

[tribal cargo]

?! GOT IT im gonna run there 😭 thank u

[quartz salmon]

Go!!!

[tribal cargo]

I was so scraed when the town is destroyed

He didnt deserve that

[robust wagon]

I did say 'something like that' they're called dual princes

[lavish needle]

who's that big chicken you found at the top of the mountain (for double jump) ?

[errant hare]

Never explained lol

[lavish needle]

lol and why the boss who give you silk heart look like on of the melody guy

[dry heart]

TEAM CHERRY add godhome as a dlc and my soul is yours!

[lavish needle]

yes i need my daily dose of trobbio

[dry heart]

technically very easily possible if hornet enters the memories of a dead godseeker, as we know there used to be many but they all gathered in the main one (unless im mistaken)

[dry heart]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-boss-trobbio-tormented-trobbio-gif-17883716302707040789

[lavish needle]

or hornet has the power to revive bosses so she do it to torture them over and over

[lavish needle]

he looked so sad in act 3 😭

[dry heart]

would you not be too if you felt like the weorld might end soon

😭

[quartz salmon]

It's a Fayforn and the weavers liked its company so they're friendly to Hornet

And the Unravelled is a mass of silk and bug souls the armor is the probably from the conductor that died during silk surgery

[lavish needle]

but we can see him in high hall while getting the melody right ?

[dapper willow]

There are more than one conductor

[lavish needle]

oh

[quartz salmon]

There were 3 conductors

1 is Ballador who we see in High Halls
2 Romino who wrote the poem at the start of the game
And 3 the guy that died during surgery I dont remember his name

And there were probably more

[lavish needle]

it's like a "type" like architect or those spiders in whispering vaults

[quartz salmon]

Yeah

It's a j*b

[dapper willow]

I wish we could have talked to more of them

[lavish needle]

i don't even know his name was ballador where did you find it ?

[quartz salmon]

It says thar when you speak to him 😭

[dapper willow]

you have to find balador to finish the game

[terse warren]

it makes the, go from related to not i think that's a pretty big difference ngl

[lavish needle]

really ? 😭 didn't notice

i was too shocked after those 10 fckng waves of ennemies

[dapper willow]

bottom left corner has all the npc names appear

[lavish needle]

?

[dapper willow]

if you talk to an npc their name shows up

[lavish needle]

oh yeah i know it but i think i just didn't notice for him

[quartz salmon]

Has anyone figured out the deal with Pious Isamor

Is it like a robot or what

[dapper willow]

it would have been cool if we saw more different unique voided enemies aside from the void masses

[quartz salmon]

Yeaaaaah but what we got is still cool

[vale plover]

Y'all there's good evidence that the dlc will be about the ant tribe

Deleted ant zone from the trailer
Variant of ants we don't see much about
Karmelita being still alive
Unopen able door after her fight

Mark my words the dlc will be about the ant tribe

[terse warren]

who?

[terse warren]

all the Old Hearts are still alive

[lavish needle]

we already beat the queen what do you want more from them ? And i can't anymore with these body building ant

[terse warren]

also recent code indicates Pharloom Bay dlc

[quartz salmon]

Bottom right of Whispering Vaults you can break the wall over the bench and there's like a big automaton Pilgrim that spits out dialogue it's really weird

[vale plover]

Only karmelita is alive

The others, it's complicated

[vale plover]

Look I love it hard

Wait

[terse warren]

Khaan is alive barely, Nyleth is tied to Shellwood itself so she's kinda alive, Green Prince is alive

[grand bison]

pharloom bay was a cut area its not confirmed to be dlc

[terse warren]

it just got added into recent code

[quartz salmon]

There is new code about the bay already being added in the newest patch

[modest coyote]

Word has it that there used to be a 4th conductor

[grand bison]

oh alright mb

[ebon silo]

That's me how'd you know

[dapper willow]

hunters march expansion is so fire!

[dapper willow]

I liked the theory that he was the guy in the slab but thats very unlikely
Still I would like to talk to another conductor just to get a better sense of what the hell is the timeline lol

[terse warren]

the conductors were many

unless you're talking about song pieces

[dapper willow]

we need a cylinder of all the melodies because they are so fire 🔥
Team cherry please I wanna replay them

[upper narwhal]

I would like to imagine Karmelita say "Sike! I have 2 hearts so thats why im still alive"

[quartz salmon]

It seems like tc is just following the rule of 3 on major stuff having a secret 4th song piece and a secret 4th heart is a little redundant

[quartz salmon]

They should introduce ocarina of time minigames in dlc

[dapper willow]

I have way too many ideas for dlc
Like enternal ordeal for every area

infinite enemy gauntlets

[upper narwhal]

Bilewater expansion

[quartz salmon]

Fixing Pharloom
Lifeblood Spire
Pharloom Bay
Elegy of the deep expansion
Steel Assasins
Silk memory boss rush

These are all my ideas

[dapper willow]

pharloom bay is coming so it is kind of a bilewater expansion

[upper narwhal]

wait that area is near bilewater?

[dapper willow]

yes

[quartz salmon]

Yeah under it

Make sense since at the farthest edges of bilewater and Putrified there's clean running water

[dapper willow]

Bilewater lacked an enemy gaunglet so tc could put that in to be extra evil
Also the normal enemies there are not that hard, the area is just huge and painful

[quartz salmon]

Groal is the enemy gauntlet

[dapper willow]

i guess

[quartz salmon]

I dont want to fight any more stilkins I'm good

[upper narwhal]

Hopefully no maggot water

[quartz salmon]

Nah its gonna be clear saltwater

[dapper willow]

its a bit far fetched but lands beyond pharloom dlc
Steel city and some other places too maybe?

[quartz salmon]

I'd say it's more realistic that they just add a big Steel Assasin questline

But they said they have "ambitious" plans so anything could happen

[dapper willow]

postgame dlc that allows us to visit other kingdoms or just civilisations
That is pretty ambitious

[scenic stirrup]

What is silk song official thoughts on hornlace chatters

[shell jewel]

silk moth? like silk from silksong?

[quartz salmon]

And moth from hollow knight

[shell jewel]

fluffy moth so cute

[scenic stirrup]

Moths are assholes

[winter iris]

Flea

[quartz salmon]

Moths are cute

[shell jewel]

hopefully it doesn't shoot beams of light at me

[quartz flicker]

I wish people would stop tagging their Hornet and Lace fanart with "Lacenet". You can make art of them doing hijinks without shipping them.

[shell jewel]

Horace?

[quartz flicker]

It's a bad ship. The universe has decreed it so.

[quartz salmon]

Oh actually yeah isn't there a whole cut "Flea Spirit" npc that never made it in? It could be fun to re-add that and continue their story

[charred nimbus]

We don't care it's a bad ship

[shell jewel]

ok then let's forget all this shipping stuff I have a question

How did Vespa become so huge

did she die because of how big she has grown?

[charred nimbus]

Maybe the same thing that happened to Carmelita?

[shell jewel]

YEAH I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT THAT

[quartz salmon]

I guess powerful bugs just grow and grow

[shell jewel]

WAIT

Ants and Bees have similar social structures right?

[quartz salmon]

You could say that

[charred nimbus]

I mean, young Vespa in Silksong is kinda of a huge retcon of sometype by her size, but i guess Team Cherry is the gaming devs wich made a fun boss rush mode and in the end the ending of the boss rush mode became canon for the second game

[shell jewel]

with workers, gatherers and the central point of the colony, THE QUEEN

so as both karmelita and vespa aged, they became fucking humongous

[quartz salmon]

She's the same size as her ghost version in HK so whatever

[shell jewel]

present karmelita was significantly larger than past karmelita

[quartz salmon]

I think that's just a constant in this world if you're a bug leader you get fed special nutrients and grow big just like the real world

[charred nimbus]

That's true, i didn't remember her ghost

[rain gate]

Not even just a leader
Look at the grand reeds

[shell jewel]

I can see that with the white lady

why the fuck is pale king so short then

is this size treatment exclusive for women

[rain gate]

White lady's a tree not a bug

[scenic stirrup]

Apparently most moths dont have mouths to eat and only exist to breed and just die after a week or so. Bit of an overreaction on the pale kings part committing mass infanticide like that

He could've waited it out

[shell jewel]

my bad, its been a while since I watched mossbag

[rain gate]

Because he wanted to be closer to his people

[quartz salmon]

He chose that form to be able to converse with other bugs

[shell jewel]

oh shit i forgot he used to be HUGE

[charred nimbus]

Seer talks tho, so that implies HK moths have mouthes

[quartz salmon]

The hollow knight is fucking huge it's because he was fed and trained properly

[scenic stirrup]

Mostly just joking

But fr tho how foes the knight or hornet eat

[rain gate]

Eye hole

[scenic stirrup]

😭

[charred nimbus]

Converse = creating Hornet (this is a joke)

[shell jewel]

It's just so funny to me that it's implied that vespa invested lots of time training her sword (nail/needle) fighting skills only to become huge and be unable to even move around in the latter years of her life