sk-lore

[surreal panther]

I assume the lifeblood is a physical variation of the radiance infection

[teal drift]

the same thing that kills other gods — void

[cloud mesa]

lace age debates?

[lethal burrow]

Life blood seems plenty fine in the abyss

[lethal burrow]

those have mostly died out

[zinc pivot]

Or maybe lifeblood just infinitely regenerate to barely keepup with abyss

[foggy fractal]

what do you mean by after eating the radiance it got a phyiscal form of the shade lord

[azure dirge]

The void is attracted to soul though, which is an interesting detail. It must have some reason to be attracted to it and to consume it.

[surreal panther]

Both have seeds and both cause some form of euphoria and empowerment before having severe negative effects

[zinc pivot]

And the lifeblood being is hibernating

[summer pendant]

oh god. i got called a pedophile like 15 seconds into a conversation for jokingly shipping hornet and lace. that was cool.

[teal drift]

this may be a testament to lifeblood's sheer fecundity, in the same way GMS was able to keep her silk cocoon alive in the abyss to some extent

[surreal panther]

The knight was its focus but we see in silksong that that is just a permanent form it has access to now

[azure dirge]

I think it’s more that it wants itself to live, so it takes over other bugs and lives through them after they consume it.

[summer pendant]

maybe, but i think assuming it's dead when we've seen it behave as though it's alive is more of a stretch, at least with current info

[teal drift]

I think it may be in a sort of in between state, having been cast into the void and survived

[tawdry flare]

Hey gang I'm back let's talk about Lace's age ||/j||

[teal drift]

I think in light of the events of skong, finding a dead looking or severely weakened god in the abyss would indicate a god that was cast into the abyss.

[silk dirge]

add that to the list of bad topics

[cloud mesa]

For the lore tablet 'of honoured caste,' further elements of Deepnest's past will be illuminated in future, but we can't say anything specific for now.
tc ama comment

[summer pendant]

there are several living creatures that seem completely fine with physically interacting with void, it's possible that Abyss Creature (as its called in the files) was a higher being born near the void, resiliant to it.

[teal drift]

I think in general, gods in HK have two parts — a divine element that self propogates and has intrinsic power and vague intent (silk, void, soul, essence), and an intelligence that is a lot more fallbile (GMS, shade lord, PK, radiance respectively). I think lifeblood is a divine substance and at some point someone threw one of its gods into the void.

[surreal panther]

My problem is they're like. Distant cousins

[teal drift]

That is also a valid possibility, I'd agree.

[silk dirge]

not really

[cloud mesa]

di they change their mind on this? i feel like they did not do that

[lethal burrow]

pale king through the lifeblood creature into the abyss maybe

[silk dirge]

weavers and lace arent really biological children

[zinc pivot]

Well not exactly
Lace is made entirely of silk

[azure dirge]

I mean radiance disappeared for a while itself before it reappeared, and it couldn’t die as long as it remained within the minds of an individual. They had to seal it away within a singular vessel’s mind ultimately. So if lifeblood is in somebody or something it probably is still alive as a god. You’d have to erase all lifeblood similar to how the void erased the radiance from the dreamscape where it was rooting into the minds of others.

[foggy fractal]

the void given focus form ? that only appeared for like a split second
its more so creating ambigiouty between which ending happens, dnm or etv

[summer pendant]

do you think genetic flaws get passed on when you're knitted from silk?

[zinc pivot]

Weavers are organic

[teal drift]

I think PK or someone at some point threw them in yeah

[summer pendant]

I don't think there is ambiguity

[surreal panther]

All weavers come from GMS that includes hornet. Likewise silk was made by her

[foggy fractal]

which ending do you think it is then

[lethal burrow]

haha LIES

[foggy fractal]

please say dnm please say dnm 🙏 ...

[teal drift]

My main thing is that the abyss lifeblood situation to me superficially resembles the GMS cocoon, presumably lifeblood was better than silk at surviving in the void environment.

[summer pendant]

In DNM, we see the THK's very distinctive scarred shade join the collective of shades, and it's absent in the ending of Silksong.

[zinc pivot]

But weavers are organic creatures

[azure dirge]

Technically Lace would be more like Hornet’s aunt or great aunt. Though Hornet is kinda far removed from the actual main lineage I think.

[zinc pivot]

So not even share any blood, literally

[tawdry flare]

I will get you

[teal drift]

I think there's no real genetic overlap considering one of them is a magical construct and not at all biological.

[summer pendant]

make a compelling argument

[lethal burrow]

this is only if you go into the interpretation that the Weavers are actually grandmother silks children.... which they sort of just like unrelated bugs that were ascended.

[tawdry flare]

No I've already done this twelve times I ain't doing it again

[chrome atlas]

they wouldn't share blood anyways, bugs have haemolymph instead

[azure dirge]

I think it’s that lifeblood doesn’t rely on soul, and is more of the flesh.

[lethal burrow]

yes you will you know you will

[surreal panther]

DNA is admittedly weird in hollow knight but we know that yes genetic degradation can haopen

[summer pendant]

make a google doc and link it at people, that's how HK's lore resources were created.

[teal drift]

also is incest really that bad if A: they can't have children and B: they didn't grow up together and don't have any weird power dynamics

[cloud mesa]

guys can we discuss tc lying in amas not tired is it incest discussions

[foggy fractal]

GMS acscended some Pharlids into Weavers
as well as the First Sinner dialogue saying that GMS lied about Weavers being daughters and divine
so we can argue that Weavers aren't really GMS's daughters

[summer pendant]

i don't want to get into this with a discord server full of children

[teal drift]

i dont actually ship Hornet and Lace but i think the incest thing is a bit silly overall

[summer pendant]

lke not telling you you're being weird but i think this place is weird and they'll make the topic weird

[azure dirge]

True. So technically lace wouldn’t even be directly related physically. Though you could call into question how relationships would work with soul involved and the soul silk that embeds into their shells or makes up lace.

[cloud mesa]

can we skip the incest ethics discussion por favor

[lethal burrow]

-# tbf from grandmother silks perspective, she might not have been lying

[teal drift]

I do agree its not really a convo worth having.

[tawdry flare]

soulLeave

[summer pendant]

I, for one, would love to hear the DNM argument

[chrome atlas]

Weavers were given prosthetics, Lace is a robot made with that same prosthetic technology. They both share elements, but familial relationships aren't one of them

[teal drift]

to the point about THK's shade, I think TC might have plans for THK and are keeping it ambiguously alive in the Sister of the Void ending.

[summer pendant]

The only ending in which THK's shade wouldn't rejoin the void are DNM and DF

[teal drift]

but its also possible that THK simply didn't join its siblings in the save Hornet convention

[summer pendant]

and in DF TK wouldn't rejoin the void

[azure dirge]

The attacks were the shade lords though.

[surreal panther]

Ok but that's like saying step siblings should bang

[zinc pivot]

If THK does show up
I bet its the steel DLC

[summer pendant]

It would have more connection to her than any of the siblings except TK

[zinc pivot]

Because steel beings are interested in void

[lethal burrow]

look I've been down this road before.

It does not end unless you state the clear reason why it's bad even if it seems obvious.

[teal drift]

maybe bro was lazy

[foggy fractal]

and gms also does a similar slash attack have a bunch of slashes

[summer pendant]

you gonna put that in your lore manifesto?

[tawdry flare]

the shades arent actually there in the ending and neither is the shade lord. it's meant to be a hallucination of sorts to imply both endings

[teal drift]

My unsarcastic theory is I think TC doesn't want to confirm THK in the void until absolutely necessary because they may have plans for it.

[foggy fractal]

its not a Shade Lord™ attack

[surreal panther]

Both produce silk both infuse soul and both made of GMS even if you argue she didn't fully make weavers she presumably would have used similar methods

[azure dirge]

No they have two distinctively different kinds of I remember correctly.

[teal drift]

if i had to defend a point a barely believe, THK's whole deal is insisting that it doesn't have feelings or a self. Even rejoined to the void with the radiance dead, it could just be pretending to not GAF about Hornet even though it probably does.

[cloud mesa]

William: We will exploring the nature of Herrah, her followers, the Weavers and Hornet a little more closely in the future
liesssss

[lethal burrow]

Silk was the method, but that's like saying two different robots are related because they're both made with steel and electricity

[teal drift]

TC has so many lore ideas and often will chose to not include them, it's a bit odd but I think they see mystery as part of the point.

[azure dirge]

It would be interesting to see THK. He had enough will to resist radiance to the very end, so even after killing radiance he wouldn’t have died from it disappearing like other bugs who no longer had minds, and we did see him appear afterwards.

[azure dirge]

Mystery creates depth.

[foggy fractal]

anyways it boils down to not confirming either
if they wanted to confirm DNM, show the siblings, tk in its void given form form, and show thk
if they wanted to confirm ETV, just show void given focus or the shade lord
them doing this weird mix of, the knight, a flash of siblings, a flash of void given focus and then back to just the knight again is pretty clear to me that they wanted it to be ambigious between the two

[summer pendant]

if we ignore what we see then yeah any ending is valid. the point is to build a theory that makes sense given what we're given, not twist what we're given to fit theories. We can always adjust later if it seems to need updating, but the implication seems pretty clear to me, I don't see a reason to uhm and ahh about it until we're given more info.

As far as we currently know, with currently available information, the game seems to communicate that Silksong is post ETV. Is that the only possibility? No, literally Silksong could be a sequel to a parallel story that didn't even happen in the original HK game, but we don't need to overcomplicate theories until given reason to do so.

[teal drift]

I wish they got around to expanding on the 5 great knights and their whole deal rip 5 great knights.

[lethal burrow]

they create imaginary depth.

Looking into the darkness, many things could exist within there, a chocolate cake or a monster or a furry girlfriend.

But actually having the thing be there is a much harder task

[silk dirge]

battle of the blackwyrm lore

[foggy fractal]

Lets gooooooo

[zinc pivot]

Well at least pale court kinda fill the hole

[azure dirge]

Well how much does soul pass along in those exchanges? If you pass along soul and life like that it might be as good as turning some one into a biological child of your own.

[zinc pivot]

Zemer remains a question

[lethal burrow]

Hans Zemer?

[teal drift]

I think Zemer is probably the only knight that may ever receive an answer as to "what's their deal".

[summer pendant]

I don't disagree with keeping an open mind, but I think it's silly not to acknowledge the mainstream path when we have the opportunity to, while noting that changes may be reasonable.

[zinc pivot]

Thats zimmer

[lethal burrow]

Then knew were you talking about?

[azure dirge]

Yeah, the illusion of depth. Humans intrinsically want to figure something out, so putting things there spurs us on, but then you have to withhold enough information to create further investment. If you canonize things it removes the amount of possibilities and potential in theories, which is often what drives a lot of interest in things.

[teal drift]

I think the presence of THK shade is kinda a nothingburger. Yeah sure ETV seems more likely than DNM, but there's a reason both the sibling mob AND shade lord are shown — intentional ambiguity to avoid confirming either ending as canon.

[cloud mesa]

im guessing we;re learn more about zamer and her land in the next instalment

[summer pendant]

why would the sibling mob not exist in ETV

[surreal panther]

We know that she fully changed weavers into weavers

[lethal burrow]

*ze'mer

[tawdry flare]

the sibling mob is symbolism, not literal

[teal drift]

its more that the sibling mob is the iconic imagery of DNM vs the shade lord for ETV

[tawdry flare]

they appear for a split second then the lord of shades appears for a split second its meant to imply ambiguity

[lethal burrow]

what if it's the other way around though? And the shade Lord as symboletic

[summer pendant]

doesn't seem like a mind changeable situation, so I'll back off ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I'm not a wiki writing person anyways

[azure dirge]

I think by fact that shadelord appears it makes ETV incredibly far more likely since it’s the only mention and placement of the shadelord appearing, and the godholm dlc very clearly specifies the necessary steps to do something like that through a focus crest.

[lethal burrow]

yeah.

hornet could have hallucinated the other stuff, but she's never seen the shade Lord

[teal drift]

I think an ending that goes out of its way to maintain ambiguity about HK's ending can just be left alone until we have further information, which will be forever at our pace.

[summer pendant]

yeah hornet is known to hallucinate alternate realities

[tawdry flare]

oh my gyatt bro

[chrome atlas]

We see void tentacles place Hornet outside of the void lake in the cutscene while she's unconscious

[tawdry flare]

yes tk unifies the void in both endings

[azure dirge]

But here’s the question, why would shadelord be symbolic? The siblings make up the shadelord but the shadelord doesn’t make up the siblings. It’s like eggs and cake. Cake doesn’t make up eggs but eggs do make up cake.

[blissful harbor]

i mean regardless TK is in control of the void to protect her

[lethal burrow]

True

[teal drift]

I don't think it's really a helpful discourse to try and figure out which HK ending is the most canon to SOTV, so I agree that it's not really worth discussing further since no minds were changed about it.

[tawdry flare]

there is no indication of the shade lord being made of siblings from what we see it's just TK

[azure dirge]

But he only focuses the void in one.

[lethal burrow]

helpful discourse in this channel lmao

[summer pendant]

clearly not the case since the void tentacles still attack hornet. next question

[surreal panther]

Also the knight is definitely stronger then hornet

[tawdry flare]

yeah voidheart seems to have a range limit now

[summer pendant]

if it were a matter of range there would be no need to physically destroy the tendrils coming for hornet

[tawdry flare]

have you considered hype moments and aura

[teal drift]

I think all gods have range/power limits to some extent.

[summer pendant]

just how up n be like "yo it's me yo lad SL/VGForm stop that shit"

[azure dirge]

It might be because void is attracted to soul, so the knight had to subdue the void with its will and focus.

And thus attacked

Because that’s how the knight gains focus

[teal drift]

also the mechanics of voidheart stopping void from attacking the knight is different than it stopping void from attacking Hornet

[blissful harbor]

the way i see it, the void was acting on instinct
it saw life and attacked, only when TK took a second and was like hey ik that one, then went to go save her

[zinc pivot]

Think of your own body
You dont exactly tell your body to beat its heart

[azure dirge]

Yeah.

[summer pendant]

ON THIS TOPIC. Is it just me or does it seem like the void beings and the liquid aren't the same thing? When the flower is destroyed, it's not like the entire liquid around hornet began attacking it, it was preformed tendrils from further out.

[zinc pivot]

Thats what the knight is like to void

[tawdry flare]

that is Void Given Form i think

[azure dirge]

Lacy is made of soul, and that flower was also there. Void was probably extremely riled up.

[teal drift]

If the knight had hiveblood equipped, the infected bees would still attack quirrel if Quirrel was travelling with the knight.

[scenic stirrup]

Does the monarch wings let u fly cannonically

[cloud mesa]

no but i think crystal dash does

[summer pendant]

it is, but it seemed like those can come out of any puddle of void, at least as far as we've seen, but now this no longer seems to be the case.

[zinc pivot]

Only PK knows

I myself equipped bluemoth charm and fly with power of money

[foggy fractal]

pel kig 🗣️

[teal drift]

on the topic of the void liquid stuff

[nimble kayak]

Can someone give me a quick synoypsis of Phantom's lore? Why is she frayed? How old is she compared to Lace? Why was Lace prefered over her?

[azure dirge]

Void just seems to take that form naturally when devouring soul.

[summer pendant]

yes, but it didn't. the void that was already touching hornet didn't change form.

[teal drift]

frayed from age and lack of upkeep, we dunno that well, we dunno that well.

[scenic stirrup]

Phantom was a prototype of lace

[dark rune]

ik its a retcon but how can herrah possibly be a weaver? she looks nothing like one

[zinc pivot]

Its like you have a lil sibling and your parents drop you because you arent cute

[nimble kayak]

https://tenor.com/view/i-dont-want-to-play-with-you-anymore-toy-story-i-dont-wanna-play-with-you-anymore-dont-wanna-play-no-more-play-gif-26906930

[summer pendant]

people b looking different an all dat

[scenic stirrup]

Lace was a perfect homunculi so she doesnt age compared to phantom

[nimble kayak]

She got the woody treatment?

[foggy fractal]

well we don't an in universe explanation she's just like that

[scenic stirrup]

Phantom turned black bc she got old

[azure dirge]

She was left abandoned at the organ which was what pumped the smog out to bilewater and ruined the waters. She was left out to dry probably because GMS was weakening and could only maintain either her and Lace, and Phantom is probably older and less advanced compared to Lace, which is why she wasn’t prioritized and instead exiled.

[blissful harbor]

in retrospect, she could’ve grown from her sleep
hibernation forcing her to grow larger, kinda like godseeker

[scenic stirrup]

The silk in her body was basically rotted

As she was alive

[dark rune]

ig that could make sense

[zinc pivot]

Oh right
GMS has the black hands and face

Kinda weird

[dark rune]

wait then again in the flashback she looks the same

[teal drift]

Its also possible that... relations... with the PK genetically altered her body to look more like his subjects (pillbugs). But that is insane territory.

[blissful harbor]

shes smaller in red memory

[azure dirge]

And wasn’t being maintained. An adult silk being might also take more silk than a child would.

[dark rune]

but shes still a chonker

[teal drift]

actually herrah's size isn't too different from weavers. The entire rest of her aesthetic is though.

[azure dirge]

Lace might be considered a child because of the soul instilled within her too. It might have a certain quality or level that is to the degree of a child.

[azure dirge]

Reminds me of deepnest and Hornet’s mother.

[dark rune]

only theory that makes a little sense to me rn

[blissful harbor]

much less so

[summer pendant]

do we have to talk about this

[lethal burrow]

Here's all the images on the subject

I can speedrun ending this discussion

[cloud mesa]

r we dead ass doing herrah retcon and lace age discussions at the same time 😭

[foggy fractal]

yeahhh herrah discussion lets GO !!!

[foggy fractal]

We're bringing this to the next level trust

[lethal burrow]

rack up that combo metre

[foggy fractal]

yeah strap in bud

[summer pendant]

Hey guys, shakra says that hornet has the body of a child, so I've decided hornet is a loli fuckass argument

[azure dirge]

She’s called a child. There is probably some lore reasoning to it. The age stuff really doesn’t matter all that much they are all bugs and don’t even have similar lifespans. Elder bug was one of the youngest bugs you meet in HK.

[dark rune]

im happy to be in this channel before when a few years down the line i will come here with a brand new theory just to get shot down by a team of all-knowing silksong intellectuals

[foggy fractal]

I think I've seen people bring up this argument lmao because they either forgot or just didn't pay attention to the lore

we got Mask Maker and the Snail Shamans calling Hornet old one but that's too late into the game ragh.

[lethal burrow]

that still happens now the only difference is that people have no idea what they're talking about.... so I guess about the same

[azure dirge]

Comparatively, Hornet probably does look like a child compared to her species young. Hornet also can potentially grow more if we consider the normal ending.

[summer pendant]

@azure dirge

[teal drift]

Hornet but THK sized

[azure dirge]

Grow up.

[dark rune]

wait no you cant do this now i need to see this

[chrome atlas]

Herrah might've just put on some weight between Hornet being a bean and going to sleep, it does tend to happen with new parents

[summer pendant]

what?

[dark rune]

ig but the weavers take the skin out of the phrase "skin and bones"

[summer pendant]

why are we now enemies...

[azure dirge]

Herrah might be a mix blood herself.

[dark rune]

no bc hornet is half weaver

[blissful harbor]

hornet is part weaver not like a quarter

[chrome atlas]

Hornet's described as half-weaver, so Herrah has to be full-blooded

[teal drift]

I think we can cut off the lace discussion, if it continues I'm going to have to drop my nuclear take that will piss off both sides.

[scenic stirrup]

What they feed pure vessel to become massive like that

[blissful harbor]

soul

[dark rune]

sawblades

[azure dirge]

Was Hornet half weaver or quarter weaver. I thought the quarter weaver thing may have been referring to Hornet though linking some of the things is kinda difficult.

[teal drift]

they put him on a stretch board

[foggy fractal]

yep, unless Herrah is a daughter of two weavers, which first we know having children is hard for weavers, second we have no indication that two weavers could have a child

[cloud mesa]

herrah weaver ness discusion aghhhh

[azure dirge]

That’s possible.

[teal drift]

maybe Herrah is wearing the bodies of slain bugs

[dark rune]

and pk screwed herrah as part of a deal

[cloud mesa]

its not even a lore discussion its just like semantics and whether or not tc changed thier mind

[foggy fractal]

it wasn't her, Hornet is half weaver, here is a choral commandment about it but I'm sure theres more dialogue
"Full Chamber to the kingdom of the White Wyrm. Claim the Weaver, in half part. Last of their line. Sensed strong with Silk.
Resistance anticipated. Quell with rune cage."

[dark rune]

hm. sensed strong with silk?

[azure dirge]

Makes sense. It’s a bit confusing getting it all straight lol.

[scenic stirrup]

Can hornet remove her mask

[teal drift]

i think they came up with the dreamer designs and then elaborated on them but the original designs didn't fully shift to align with the elaboration.

[dark rune]

ig gms can detect weavers?

[quartz salmon]

A what

[scenic stirrup]

Or is it like she was born with it like the knight was

[blissful harbor]

no

[azure dirge]

Deepnest is also an interesting reflection of the weavers I think.

[dark rune]

i dont think its a mask, it's her head

[teal drift]

my thought is that Hornet's situation is like if you took a human and removed all their skin beneath their neck. The shell IS her head, it just has skin while the rest of her body doesnt.

[scenic stirrup]

Thought so

[lethal burrow]

why are second sentinels moves exclusively a combination of the pinstress, lace, and the shaman crest of all things?

[scenic stirrup]

I think the radiance still has a crown

[foggy fractal]

oh yeah back on this btw Hornet literally says this after Shakra's comment on her looking like a child
"You have keen sight for my skill, bug, but my childhood has long since passed. What has happened here? I see signs of battle all around."

[zinc pivot]

Coincidence really

[blissful harbor]

halos are a sign of divinity, i don’t think there’s any connection besides that

[teal drift]

is lost lace a budding void god? Idk probably not but its a fun idea. We literally find her in a cocoon and her self denial makes her a great candidate.

[zinc pivot]

Like a law of design

[azure dirge]

Some bugs are born with masks, faces. Faces seem to be linked to higher thought, focus, and soul. Having one can help you with these aspects, being born with one probably instills some level of strength. We also see mask shards though, which seem to be able to be applied if you are of a certain lineage.

It’s kinda interesting

[dark rune]

every final boss that is ancient overlooked lady with an hourglass figure that overtook the new kingdom by controlling the citizens has one

[chrome atlas]

The cocoon was GMS trying to keep the void out, right?

[dark rune]

ive heard the weavers lulled her to sleep and put her in there

[zinc pivot]

Also similar
Whatchamacallit legs

[teal drift]

yes but symbolically it also could serve as a cocoon to evolve lace.

[azure dirge]

Kinda looks similar to pale kings crown and even his white aesthetic. I wonder if radiance stole it.

[foggy fractal]

they don't really look all that similar but they do have pointy things on their heads yes

[cloud mesa]

i wonder if theres any significance from radiance and gms similiarities

[teal drift]

I find it kinda funny that Radiance lore is mostly that she is just an elite hater.

[zinc pivot]

Radiance statue has the crown too

[dark rune]

only if radiance saw him as a wyrm

[azure dirge]

Some people think it may have been done by the weavers to bind GMS

[sacred heath]

hey so just found this lore tablet in the abyss that says
“In silence your voice,
In darkness your form,
We higher who see you seeking,
Our shells yearn for your embrace.”
what’s the deal with that? is it referring to Shade Lord?

[dark rune]

i think shes just asleep there bc she can get out

[blissful harbor]

it’s the AC being emo wanting to worship the void

[dark rune]

and fight

[azure dirge]

Yeah. Doesn’t necessarily change much.

[foggy fractal]

I mean we know the ancient civlization worshipped the void itself, so its just the void itself

[blissful harbor]

and jump into it cause they’re super emo

[teal drift]

I think its probably unspecified void worshippers, possibly from the ancient kingdom

[dark rune]

sharp pointy legs

[zinc pivot]

Well u said she stole wyrms drip idea

[azure dirge]

There’s something somewhere that says she was bound. Also we don’t ever see her leave, and all the threads go there and end there.

[dark rune]

she leaves when we challenge her

[teal drift]

I mean she stays in the room

[azure dirge]

Could be wyrm stole it. Or they have some similar origin perhaps? It just seems similar in appearance, radiances legs and crown.

[lethal burrow]

shade Lord only exists at the end of the god home ritual.

[azure dirge]

She doesn’t leave the cradle or room though.

[weary pier]

So what was Seth’s whole deal? How was he under the influence of Nyleth?

[teal drift]

Also there's an argument to be made that she needed a challenge from a weaver or weaver descendant to emerge from the cocoon.

[foggy fractal]

the cocoon that she makes in the abyss in act 3 ? yeah
Snail Shaman: Even knowing her motivation, it is a shock the monarch can resist so long. We'd thought none could survive that void.
Hornet: She will have retreated within her protective form, that cocoon of thread. Even as the dark eats its outer, she will spin its Silk anew.

[lethal burrow]

Oaths can be bounding things

[azure dirge]

Maybe the ancients were trying to create the shadelord?

[teal drift]

I think Seth is a worshipper of a nature "god" who dedicated his life to protecting said god from people seeking its power. Not sure there's more than that to him.

[lethal burrow]

maybe

[azure dirge]

Or a shadelord.

[dark rune]

not confined to the area, i dont think. she could prob go down the room and go wherever she wanted. she just stays there so you dont have to run around pharloom just to fight her.

[azure dirge]

There is some lore that suggests she was somehow bound or confined. Idk where it is exactly but people were talking about it the other day.

[teal drift]

it's odd that Khann and Karmelita are very powerful warriors but Nyleth actually seems a bit more Divine in nature. Not sure what the deal with that is.

[azure dirge]

Her growths are also all over the woods. Maybe the grey root curse is the reason she died.

Because we also see the pollips are the same flower just after consuming one of those hornets

So maybe the grey roots first host was Nyleth.

[azure dirge]

Thanks

[teal drift]

GMS is 100% caged for most of Pharloom history that we learn about, and I believe she is still caged during the haunting, and is trying to use her puppets to get her out somehow, and her plan somehow involves Hornet. No real clue wtf her plan is tbh.

[lethal burrow]

who bound first sinner

[dark rune]

slab people? idk. perhaps gms herself

[teal drift]

https://tenor.com/view/god-help-lord-crazy-sign-of-the-cross-gif-16881554

[dark rune]

or widow? wouldnt be surprised if weavers turned on each other ever

[azure dirge]

Her threads also seem woven throughout all of pharloom, which might be what is caging her too. Since yk, all that silk has soul, if she cut it she could die potentially. Might be why she needs Hornet, she could cut herself free and consume her to replenish the soul she’d lose.

[teal drift]

I see two main candidates for FS jailer:

1. GMS

2. The other weavers

[dark rune]

i thought they just wanted to kill all weavers

prob couldve freed herself by doing that to previous, killed ones if thats true

[teal drift]

the haunted silk is often described as having a mind of its own and being attracted to itself, indicating automaticity rather than it being explicitly controlled by GMS.

[azure dirge]

Those ones are spread out across the place, maybe to keep gms caged.

[teal drift]

the degree of control GMS has over the haunted silk is kinda unclear, would love to know the mechanics on that.

[azure dirge]

True. Though it also does seem like it might be following her will to some degree, and Lace seems to command it in the citadel to some degree.

[teal drift]

because the haunting seems to be both an automatic process that can be manipulated by outside sources AND something GMS can finely control to the point of giving specific commands to citadel soldiers.

[azure dirge]

And then we have those elite soldiers that were being sent specifically to collect weavers for GMS

[dark rune]

maybe we should think of it like a high military general and his officers or something

[azure dirge]

Also those weavers sealed their power somehow and then it gets passed on to Hornet. Citadel is also not of weaver make which is interesting.

[teal drift]

really weird theory: the envoys that captured Hornet and other weaver halfspawn predate the haunting and were the common bugs seeking weavers out. The ones that captured hornet just happened to bring her back at the time the haunting was starting up.

[azure dirge]

Actually what did even happen to the weavers? Their tech was way different from the citadels.

[blissful harbor]

citadel was made by weavers wdym

[lethal burrow]

By the way, interesting thing about all the Weavers that were brought:
yes.
you can find it written in the cradle:

"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, frail with age.
Tracked and taken in Sandsea Waste.
Seven Choristors, nine Envoys lost to task."

"Weaver, in eighth part, last of their line, mortally wounded.
Tracked and taken in the Blackbarrens.
Four Choristors, one Reed lost to task."

"Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service.
Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel.
Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task."

add them all together with hornet being half weaver.

and it adds up to 1 full weaver... perhaps a full Weaver's power was required to unbind her, and thus was widow mutilated to prevent such a thing by her doing.

I'm unsure of what this means

[dark rune]

so ig weavers probably sealed first sinner, then herself

[azure dirge]

Are we even totally sure of that in and of itself?

[teal drift]

you know, good point about it adding up to 1 full weaver. Never really noticed that

I think weaver did make the citadel, but it was expanded on a lot

[blissful harbor]

You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.

Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[azure dirge]

Maybe. First Sinner also passes their power along after testing you though.

[dark rune]

rune rage was juicy on nyleth i must say

[azure dirge]

Alright fair. Wonder why the tech diverged so much from the atlas though.

[teal drift]

I think the stone weavenests we find in game are from Weavers+AwakeGMS era, the basic structure of the citadel is from Weavers+asleepGMS era, and then the uber capitalist and super gaudy hellscape was from the common bug era after the weavers dipped.

[azure dirge]

So then who sealed away the weavers, or why did they seal themselves away, they even used the atlas and older styled stone…

[teal drift]

I think weavers either died out or ran away

[blissful harbor]

they aren’t sealed away, the ones we find in game are dead

[azure dirge]

Unless those were weavers who disagreed with the citadel and trap before gms was put to sleep?

[blissful harbor]

and the other fled

[azure dirge]

Their memory and power is sealed though.

[teal drift]

there seem to be 2 points weavers ran away: before GMS was put to sleep, and when they realized GMS was inevitably going to wake up.

[dark rune]

let's say 4 runes hit nyleth, who stays in the same place most of the time. that is 192 damage with fully upgraded needle.

[azure dirge]

Which is what gets passed on. It’s repeatedly stated they were waiting for a descendant to come claim their power, collectively.

[lethal burrow]

and yet...

dialogue from the shamans: Pharloom was not born of that monarch, Old One. Power existed in these lands even before she bound them beneath her."
(the "them" that was bound to be beneath her seems to be talking about the land itself, not the other people's)

clear reference to grandmother silk being in control of the citadel: hornet says "You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."

[teal drift]

that does not refer to the citadel at all

[dark rune]

perhaps partially referring to verdania?

[blissful harbor]

idk how that conflicts, we know there were people in pharloom before, the 4 monarchs come to mind firstly

[teal drift]

GMS came through and colonized the existing powers wth the weavers, the weavers overthrew her and created the citadel afterwards.

[dark rune]

the who

[blissful harbor]

karmeltia, nyleth, khan, and the green princes

[dark rune]

i see

[blissful harbor]

nyleth isn’t really a monarch but yea

[teal drift]

I feel like nyleth might be a low tier HB, i cant figure out her deal

[blissful harbor]

ehhh, she seems more like an isma type creature

[azure dirge]

And then weavers left the land and whoever was left all began to die somehow and left power behind to be claimed by a descendant, and did so everywhere including the abyss, which was also a place that was cut off for a long time before the diving bell was made to allow them to go down again.

[blissful harbor]

but on a larger scale

[trim lark]

what do we think this would actually taste like
i promise this is very important lore

[azure dirge]

Well the shellwoods seem to exist solely because of her, and her lingering presence is enough to keep the shellwood as it is.

[dark rune]

my favorite retcon is 3 queens thing being re-added. a year ago you couldve gone into #hk-lore talking about 3 queens and some smug guy would tell you "erm actually, that was cut from the game"

[teal drift]

the weavers lived in terror of GMS awakening even after binding her

[azure dirge]

Maybe Nyleth just grew into the entire shellwood. Or died to protect that small area from falling like the others.

[teal drift]

I think nyleth as an isma tier kinda makes sense to me. Responsible for a whole area and powerful, but not really fully Divine to the same extent as the other HBs we see.

[dark rune]

my least favorite part of silksong is so little forgotten crossroads blue. only place i can find it is the unnamed town

[azure dirge]

So they essentially sealed their power away for a descendant who might be able to kill and replace the gms. Maybe that’s why Herra made that deal.

[lethal burrow]

idk to me seems to suggest that the grandmother was in control of the citadel? For a time?

The first of the two dialogues does not mention the citadel, but what force was she using to conquer the land at that time then? What would it have been called?

And the second directly contradicts the mask maker, or so it seems to me.

[rare meteor]

this line makes me think that this room is where they made the Architects, but seeing the connections between Whiteward and the Conductors (unraveled boss, the conductor you get the melody from being on silken life support) makes me wonder if it's them. Are Conductors amalgams of a bunch of dead bugs?

[azure dirge]

To create Hornet so Hornet could kill gms.

[blissful harbor]

second doesn’t, she came back into control of the citadel after the choir took if from the weavers

[teal drift]

how would the citadel even exist if GMS had just started colonizing?

[azure dirge]

Interesting. Something interesting to note is that the unraveled boss is very similar to gms in a lot of ways. It also could even be fully killed by Hornet.

[lethal burrow]

How could she have been in control if she only wakes up at the end of the second act?

[dry bridge]

Beyond the monarchs, the stilkin in bilewater and maybe the craws come to mind. (The craws are a touch unclear, they seem self-organized but still collect rosaries, so they were probably assimilated to some degree into pharloom culture)

[lethal burrow]

I don't buy her conquering happening anytime after she was put to sleep

[azure dirge]

It’s attack patterns are also super similar in a lot of ways and it can control things bound by the thread

[dark rune]

do we know how common the wyrm species is?

[teal drift]

im confused on how that line implies she controlled the citadel during the early colonization of the 4 old powers, when the citadel was not even created until later in the timeline.

[blissful harbor]

she’s not fully asleep, this is made clear multiple times through the game???
she has literally been sending squads out to capture weavers

[dark rune]

to my knowledge weve only heard about 2 ever, but im wondering how many others roamed the lands and made kingdoms.

[azure dirge]

They don’t seem common. At least not among mortal bugs. They are huge too. Most probably don’t interact with such smaller kingdoms as higher beings.

[teal drift]

yeah GMS is like semi sentient for the entire game. The haunting seems to be somewhat automatic but she's definitely using it to try and get resources to herself.

[nimble kayak]

Random question but why does First Sinner not have arms?

[lethal burrow]

she's not fully awake and she's not fully asleep.

She's semiconscious. And in that state, she seems to only care about lace and waking up.

why would she go conquer?

[blissful harbor]

widow seem to have been stringing up bells, which seems to be a the cause her semi-awakening imo

[azure dirge]

I think a good question is how many just continue to roam through the world. How deep can they go? After all the abyss seems everywhere.

[dark rune]

pk and "the battle of blackwyrm", which im pretty sure was a battle in some other wyrm carcass

[zinc pivot]

She does, you seen her claws attack?

[dark rune]

hm. abyss wyrm.

[azure dirge]

The pale king was also extremely interested in the abyss and seemed heavily linked to it in ways.

[blissful harbor]

wym conquer

[nimble kayak]

So what are those spiky things? Her shoulders?

Why are they on Widow's hips instead?

[rare meteor]

very happy game where nothing bad ever happens

[teal drift]

tbf I think anyone remotely powerful in the HK world would be very curious about the abyss, given it contains a god killing substance of pure darkness.

[zinc pivot]

Questioning bug anatomy is a strange question in of itself

[azure dirge]

Maybe the ancient cities were originally left by the wyrms? It could even be their follies that created the void as it is, through regrets, and it may even be why the void is attracted to soul.

[dark rune]

if blackwyrm wasnt a site and instead another wyrm, im wondering if it was kinda like the radiance, trying to steal the kingdom from pk

[chrome atlas]

Absolutely confusing.

The jelly coating is made of mossberries, which — as much as we can trust the Druid — have a wide variety of flavours. We can assume a vaguely fruity flavour for it, though.

The pickled muckmaggot would have a sour, vinegar-y taste, if it tastes anything like grubs (don't ask.), and if we assume it was pickled using vinegar.

The nectar would probably be sweet and fizzy, given the fermentation.

The rasher is meaty and fatty. 'Rasher' is for bacon specifically — we can assume that.

The crustnut, if it was smoked, has an 'intense' flavour.

The dish itself would be a savoury, smoky curl of bacon with some sour gherkin-y rubber from the muckmaggot, surrounded by sweet from both the nectar infusion and the jelly.

[azure dirge]

I wonder if it’s related to even how the wastes beyond kingdoms exist.

[rare meteor]

actually, now that i think about it i am probably overcomplicating it - that room is where they ripped out the silk from irreparably dying bugs to be recycled into other patients

[zinc pivot]

Ripped out the souls

[dark rune]

look at all the life in the room. there's hornet, and uh.. hornet...

[zinc pivot]

See those silkflies? Soul

[lethal burrow]

The Green Prince is against the citadel.

His lover was turned cogwork so it's at least tied to the time of the architects, and the Citadel, judging by the location of the room. his lover even "gave his whole he gave,m in desperate trade to see our own caves left safe"
but this is the next dialogue: "So long, I dared not visit… Even as our lands fell to thread and ruin" so the haunting happened afterwards.

[zinc pivot]

You see all those machine in cog core?
Yeah dead bugs souls

[rare meteor]

so this IS the place where they made Architects

[dark rune]

considering the length of a wyrm, and how void seems to be everywhere, perhaps a couple wyrms turned into void?

perhaps there was a bit of void, then it overtook wyrms that went that low and they became void too

[azure dirge]

Might be why the void takes that shape down there

[dark rune]

spreading the abyss everywhere

[ebon silo]

Or dug a little bit too much below and drown in it

[lethal burrow]

what ever do you mean?

[rare meteor]

also, this has some harrowing implications for that one chest in Royal Waterways in the first game

[azure dirge]

Or the wyrms tunnels spread it, or a mix of all of those. Also wonder how the ancients could live down there like they did. Was the void not always as high as it was? The void also seems connected to regrets. Considering how the shades work.

[zinc pivot]

Cant believe first sinner flashed us

[dark rune]

im guessing the dark bugs that we see around the abyss didnt always look like that

[lethal burrow]

all the old hearts

[ebon silo]

Her legs are her arms even though she has like really really short 4 arms I mean it's a hit on spiders they walk with it and they do with it

[azure dirge]

Silk flies are also what save Hornet and lead her in many places and points in time.

[dark rune]

they are probably commonplace everywhere at that depth, and the void seeped up, making the abyss

[nimble kayak]

ah, hadn't seen that

The black on black in her arena makes it a bit hard to decipher details

[azure dirge]

Wyrms do seem resistant to the void to some extent given how much the pale king could work with it.

[rare meteor]

are silkflies an actual thing mentioned in the game btw? I can't remember anyone using that word

[dark rune]

perhaps they were like the vessels, beings made of void?

[teal drift]

my proposed timeline:

1. Initial colonization of verdania under GMS
2. Verdania exists under thumb of GMS/weavers, when citadel is created by weavers it remains under citadel's thumb
3. Verdania has a crisis, GP's lover gives the citadel the clockwork dancers as a gift in hopes theyll save them
4. Citadel does nothing, Verdania is lost and GP is left in the wind.
   Haunting occurs.

[rare meteor]

i just thought they were lumaflies

[azure dirge]

Or they were at least as resistant to it as the wyrms like pale king were.

[lethal burrow]

when do you propose grandmother silk was sent to sleep?

[dark rune]

pk died to it (it seems), so ig they couldve too, which is why they arent around anymore. do we see any infrastructure in silksong's abyss?

[lethal burrow]

lumaflys have two wings only

[nimble kayak]

How was hornet broken out of her cage?

[azure dirge]

We do see some. It’s done in the same manner as the usual.

[lethal burrow]

Magic fly

[dark rune]

seal breaking bug

[zinc pivot]

Makes lot of sense
Fits with gps young age

[dark rune]

ig its just everywhere. one thing we DONT see is soul totems, so the void society people still couldve been exclusive to hallownest

[zinc pivot]

Could be synonymous

[azure dirge]

Beings born of void seem to be incredibly simple under normal circumstances too, or corrupted by it. I think the vessels were unique because of the pale lady and pale kings influences as higher beings. Pale king was essentially a higher being that fostered thought and civility among bugs.

[zinc pivot]

Like there are different butterflies species

[azure dirge]

Well we know they weren’t because we get an arcane egg. Which is exclusive to their society.

You also find a bigger one down there.

[chrome atlas]

grey prince sote

[azure dirge]

That’s how they inscribed information and such.

So there is a confirmed trace of them.

[teal drift]

GMS was put to sleep in parallel or right before the creation of the citadel, per MM's dialogue about it being devised to contain her.

The citadel was a system to try and keep her down that was a bit doomed to fail in the long run since they were still using her magic element in every single thing that they did.

[dark rune]

ig they just settled in hallownest, then.

[nimble kayak]

Small q regarding Phantom's head, what's up with it?

Is it like a firm shape, is it wispy/fading, what's it made of?

[dark rune]

they probably couldve swam in the void, moving everywhere. perhaps swimming, or maybe merging, if they were void, then coming back out of it, regaining form.

[teal drift]

unfortunately there is not much in game content discussing this folly that pharloom engaged in

[azure dirge]

I think it’s more so that the pale king excavated more of the abyss than pharloom did. In pharloom the abyss was sealed off naturally over time after all and efforts to look into it were very minimal. They did not focus on digging up that last like the pale king did

[quartz salmon]

never seen this before, a tweet with this little guy popped up so i went to see for myself and yeah

[teal drift]

also in pharloom theres a bunch of lava on top of the abyss

so just harder to access

[dark rune]

the rising lava stuff doesnt make sense to me. wouldnt it just fall down into the abyss?

[ebon silo]

It's reasonable that PK dug more into the abyss I mean the dude was fighting an infection

[zinc pivot]

Would abyss drink lava

[lethal burrow]

birth

[ebon silo]

I mean is it alive

[zinc pivot]

Or lava make abyssidian

[ebon silo]

Holy dlc

[dark rune]

if it could, it would prob do it fast enough to make it so that the lava couldnt rise.

[dark rune]

whys this name go hard tho

[ebon silo]

Or maybe the void and the lava pool is cut off?

[dark rune]

idk

[azure dirge]

Yeah. The abyss is also attracted to soul. So it may have been more attracted to Hallownest because it had more higher beings and soul in it than pharloom so it rose higher.

[ebon silo]

It could be cut off because there is no way they're connected

[teal drift]

PK building his palace right above the abyss is an act of hubris equivalent to me building a house of twigs in tornado alley.

[azure dirge]

Yeah, I’m just pointing out there was a lot more reason to have the void and ancient peoples stuff in Hallownest compared to pharloom. We only find a single piece of their civilization really, and some architecture. Mostly because it was all buried otherwise.

[ebon silo]

Or the bones piled so much we think it rosed higher

[dark rune]

yeah, several million void babies all with soul-collecting power would attract the void

[teal drift]

at some point during the citadel the weavers got a lil curious about the void, but didnt get too much down there

[quartz salmon]

so many people have 100% the game and were still finding new stuff

[azure dirge]

True.

[ebon silo]

I'm sure the abyss in hallownest is incredibly deep but as the vessel project went on the bones piled and piled

[azure dirge]

Not to mention the regrets, the regret seems to attract or be tied to void too. Which I think is how they tied the void into the children too. They essentially killed them to make them vessels in the first place.

[dark rune]

yeah i dont think the pale king dug anything out per se

abyss just goes far down

how long do you guys think itll be until mossbag uploads a lore video

[azure dirge]

It might be that the void rose up higher in pharloom because it was attracted to all the silk and bugs filled with it, lots of soul, weavers made a a lot of soul, then also the four lords and their hearts, and even the shamans. It also probably rose because GMS was plunged into it so it rushed to engulf her.

So we don’t get to see or go deeper into the ruins.

[dark rune]

the void is so intriguing

i wouldnt mind a hollow knight game entirely in the abyss

[azure dirge]

So the ruins could be as deep and expansive as the ones in Hallownest were but both had the void rush up because it felt soul and was exposed.

[ebon silo]

I would say I'd agree but the constructions below in the abyss wouldn't really make sense

[azure dirge]

Well they had been down there before, it may have been safer back then too. There was a massive soul cocoon attracting the void after all.

[ebon silo]

unless the void civilization or whatever civilization dabbled in the void was still alive and the void rosed because of silk or whatever it was before and then they build an area around it

[azure dirge]

In both games we go to an ancient city with void after the void has been attracted by something and potentially submerged the ruins further.

[dark rune]

do you guys think tc would make an act 4 or only expand available stuff in the first 3 acts. both seem possible to me.

[azure dirge]

Your thought process doesn’t make sense. Void is fluid, it can ebb and flow. Rise or lower. It’s attracted to soul, it pools and gathers closer to where there is soul.

[ebon silo]

hm

[zinc pivot]

2.5 maybe

[dark rune]

ACT 2.5 doesnt have that much of a ring to it

[ebon silo]

I mean to introduce dlcs maybe? Or just be in act 3 forever I guess

[azure dirge]

The void could have engulfed whatever ruins the civilization left because it rose to eat GMS, thus why we don’t see as much compared to HK, alongside it not being excavated.

[zinc pivot]

Depends on how it impact the ending

[azure dirge]

Finally act 7…

[zinc pivot]

I would say a DLC is an interlude

[azure dirge]

Silk Road run.

[zinc pivot]

Godmaster works like an alternate act 3

[ebon silo]

Chapter 7 🥀

[dark rune]

i think they would expand act 3 most of all.

[chrome atlas]

I could see an act 3.5/act 4 if there's something like a 'rebuild Pharloom' DLC

[dark rune]

like it's a good amount of content but doesnt feel like as much as act 2 rn

[azure dirge]

I mean it sort of acts as an expansion to the true ending route tbh.

[zinc pivot]

We can train Lace

Wording intentionally ambiguous

[ebon silo]

I'm pretty sure godmasters are just non canon paths and like hornet never encounters them same as the knight

[dark rune]

"You put the cheese INSIDE the two pieces of bread, not outside! You've gotten cheese all over the panini press!"

[ebon silo]

What's with cheese

[dark rune]

hornet teaches lace how to make a grilled cheese

[azure dirge]

Don’t we literally see Shadelord.

[ebon silo]

then there's that

though I actually do think the godmaster ending is the canon one but like the cutscene is retconned only cutting the part where hornet meets the knight again

[azure dirge]

The godmasters also had the only thing that can generate the focus required for that sort of things the focus crest.

[zinc pivot]

Would say its more impactful as DNM

[azure dirge]

I think it’s that godmaster is canon but dnm probably also happened. Knight sort of did both.

[dark rune]

i think the shade lord mask appearing briefly is just like "hey there friendly player just so you know he's the shade lord not just the knight merged with the abyss"

unless hornet saw the shade lord before she got captured

then she would've known already

[azure dirge]

Well there’s issues with that because knight only gets focused by going through godholm.

And we know the focus crest is a required component for that.

[dark rune]

kinda like a flashback merged with reality

[dark rune]

wdym

[azure dirge]

So godholm would have to have had happened. My guess is that Knight did godholm but then also did the requirements of dnm, basically did everything, may have gone to THK and fought radiance there after getting focused by godmasters

[zinc pivot]

Not a crest, a ritual and a godtuner

And an entire race of worshippers

[azure dirge]

The shadelord was created through the godmasters ritual and the godtuners focus crest effect.

[azure dirge]

The godtuner has a a focus crest

[dark rune]

ok

[zinc pivot]

Is it called a crest?

[azure dirge]

That’s how it functions. The Godtuner has a crest that focuses

[azure dirge]

Yup!

[ebon silo]

It's like this the knight beats absolute radiance in the pantheon but before doing so they had given the delicate flower to the godmaster they teleported hornet sees the infection dead and the ending is there some time later hornet gets captured and is sent to pharloom and that's about it

[zinc pivot]

SS ruined me with how crests are defined

[ebon silo]

Teleported or obliterated??

[azure dirge]

I don’t think they gave the flower to them. Since yk. Knight wasn’t obliterated.

The flower would have obliterated shadelord.

[ebon silo]

I genuinely thought the flower teleported the godmaster but of course no

[azure dirge]

No it kills shadelord because it’s anti void flower.

[zinc pivot]

Its hard to tell if the flower deletes godhome too

So we dunno if shade lord inside godhome is affected

[azure dirge]

Probably kills godholm because they were corrupted by void.

[azure dirge]

Hard to say I guess. Have to wonder how far the flower reaches.

But in that case shadelord would probably be trapped since no exit.

[zinc pivot]

I think the flower only removes the physical void

Dream realm stuff is usually untouched

[azure dirge]

You gotta wonder though if the flowers protect from void why are they so feared and reviled by some?

Maybe it’s because they also ward off regrets or something?

[ebon silo]

Perhaps the flower is from a civilization that of they fear maybe idk

[zinc pivot]

Any mention of the flower being feared?

[azure dirge]

Yeah but we get a flower from the dream realm and it also deletes void so the mere concept of it is enough to annihilate void so in theory it would also do so in the dream realm.

[dark rune]

i think godhome (but like, a different one, or maybe a void-seeped one?) has to be in silksong, the whole idea is just too good. unless team cherry can come up with some other great idea for how all the bosses are there, they need to put it in.

[azure dirge]

A few npcs react in a way as to suggest the flower is a bad omen or negative to some capacity.

[azure dirge]

Voidholm

[dark rune]

hornet slaps the shade lord 💀

[zinc pivot]

So like, Emilitia and White Lady

[nimble kayak]

If Phantom took her mask off, would she have eyes or just be faceless like GMS?

[dark rune]

she would be beheading herself

[nimble kayak]

Huh?

[dark rune]

it's a shell

[azure dirge]

LOL

[dark rune]

not a mere mask

[dark rune]

i actually kinda like this idea

[zinc pivot]

We dunno whats up with Phantoms face

[ebon silo]

But wasn't it off before

[dark rune]

???????

[azure dirge]

Also have to wonder what environment they need to grow in naturally.

[ebon silo]

let me find hold on or I'm just hallucinating

[dark rune]

only thing she ever took off was her cloak

[azure dirge]

Because something about where they grow is important they can’t support themselves in most places.

[nimble kayak]

???

[zinc pivot]

They seems to bloom normally in
A grave

[dark rune]

shoot i hallucinated the word "hornet" over "phantom"

[nimble kayak]

💀

[ebon silo]

You fool

[dark rune]

ok the answer is no idea

[nimble kayak]

Do yall think it'd be like Lace or GMS?

[dry bridge]

Well, we don't really have access to dreams in the same way (elegy is close but deals in slightly different concepts I think) but some sort of boss rush dealing in memories instead would make senze

[azure dirge]

Maybe they have some sort relation there? Idk if those are the full form or perfect flower though. It is mentioned that they are weak outside of their lands.

[dark rune]

i am really hoping they add voidhome as the boss rush now

[ebon silo]

I'm assuming phantom is just headless and her mask is kinda fucked up headless? Or more so just mostly mostly maskless

[azure dirge]

They will definitely add more fights linked to the needolyn

[dark rune]

how does taking off her mask even work if she's made of silk? i wouldnt think anything would be able to be taken off

[dark rune]

hidden silks dlc

[ebon silo]

Was phantom actually made of silk? Or soul

[azure dirge]

I think it’s just not a mask. It’s her shell.

[nimble kayak]

It's a Phantom of the Opera ref prsumably, the phantom wears a mask to hide his face

[ebon silo]

I don't remember anymore

[azure dirge]

Both.

[dark rune]

silk, but sounds like silk and soul are pretty much the same

[zinc pivot]

Maybe Phantom has dementia and she needs a mask to maintain consciousness

[azure dirge]

silk imbued with soul.

GMS silk is imbued with soul.

[nimble kayak]

Silk and Soul???

[azure dirge]

And naturally retains and holds soul.

[zinc pivot]

Phantom is falling apart after all

[ebon silo]

I'm assuming phantoms silk is gone or non existent and her soul is what remains it's only time before she just dies because of no silk

[azure dirge]

Makes sense. She also seems to have to hold it on.

[azure dirge]

Maybe the last of her soul resides in the mask, because her body has grey silk which has lost its white quality.

[dry bridge]

Yeah, at the very least I can definitely see memory rematches happening for a fair few bosses

[ebon silo]

yeah like the silk can't hold the soul anymore so something like that

[azure dirge]

Masks lore is so confusing

[eternal sigil]

Sudden lore thought. So ||Sister of the Void suggests that the Shade Lord/Ghost has been following Hornet enough to be able to defend her when the Void encroaches.

Is it possible that it sprang out of the Void snare to attack GMS specifically because she was fighting Hornet?||

[ebon silo]

also do you guys think the pale king knew alot of the steel civilization or idk about the steel assassins? Because I'm very sure the kingsmould or the bodyguards look fking steel and shell and I remember steel can give void something a form of sort

[azure dirge]

Like who is using masks? Who needs them? Which bugs we encounter? How do some bugs get masks in the first place with their hostility?

[dark rune]

why can a bug be born without a mask? is it like a deformity, or is it something by species?

[azure dirge]

No I don’t think so, if that had happened it would have been a very different event.

I think the knight knew Hornet was taken and went to save her, and when they arrived they found her in the void.

[ebon silo]

Considering the knight is a god of void now I think he just appeared because his territory was being interfered or so and just so happened to find hornet

[dark rune]

this also shows that the knight was never hollow, so godhome ending was the only way

[azure dirge]

I mean the void charm does say it unites the void under knight’s will n such

[dark rune]

itd be interesting if you got a truly hollow ending in hollow knight if you had read all dialogue ever for less than a minute

[dry bridge]

Most bugs have some sort of exoskeletal masks I think. Interesting to me is how snails dont seem to have masks at all.

[tawdry flare]

the vessels were never hollow

[azure dirge]

Knight probably would have done better than Hollowknight but likely would not be permanent

[dark rune]

yeah

[ebon silo]

With how small the knight is it was kinda funny that the chains just pass by the knight

[azure dirge]

But it still had a Will, it did come back to Hallownest to seal the radiance

[dry bridge]

(Snails not having masks makes some sense with them being mollusks, which are not bugs and thus lack a carapace for a natural mask to come from)

[ebon silo]

And refuse offers too if that counts

[azure dirge]

And the knight has focus from the start that it can heal itself through.

[azure dirge]

And buy things, save people, etc. deal with Hornet.

I’m glad that by lore knight is a certified bad ass though.

[dark rune]

if pk was ever able to make a truly hollow child, the child would need to have no will, and thus wouldnt be able to try taking the radiance within itself

[eternal sigil]

It seems that the vessels were never hollow, however given both the Pale King's actions and also what the White Lady has to say about it it appears that the thoughts of vessels are completely inscrutable to them where they are plain to read for other bugs/gods/etc

[dark rune]

it was an impossible plan, doomed to fail

[azure dirge]

That’s a good point, would they even be able to contain the radiance in the first place if they were perfect.

[eternal sigil]

so it seems the void has a cloaking/concealing effect, or else its will is simply incompatible with whatever mental sense they have

[azure dirge]

The void seems to stop it yeah.

[dry bridge]

Maybe if the radiance was forced into them, rather than focusing to take the radiance in

[dark rune]

it wouldve been
"Ok so you need to focus the radiance"
🦗

[trim lark]

ts is what i go to ss lore for

[eternal sigil]

an extremely tragic mistake but not one made out of malice

[azure dirge]

It could be that it is also just utterly counter intuitive to them in how it functions because it takes from regret not soul.

Regret seems like the antithesis to soul, and seems to even eat at souls and be linked to the void.

And you can even corrupt your magic to become void, maybe even twinged with those regrets.

[dark rune]

this is why i love hollow knight games

for the tragedy

[azure dirge]

It is really awesome

Great story

[eternal sigil]

the lore is unlike nearly any other setting and I am here for it

[azure dirge]

Kind of like mistaking another form of life to be non sentient simply because it doesn’t operate the same way you do.

[dark rune]

you are presented with the epitome of a hopeless situation, and no one can do anything to prevent it

all those children in the abyss, killed for a plan that didnt work

[eternal sigil]

I had forgotten about the ties of shades to regrets, and suddenly see some parallels with the Void to (ironically) the Pale as seen in Disco Elysium

[dark rune]

and couldnt work

[vocal crypt]

isn't the player character having control of the knight sort of a meta way of showing that they aren't completely impartial/hollow, given that we (and by extension the knight) have choices to make through the game

[azure dirge]

There are some funny comparisons there.

[dark rune]

a once great kingdom, fallen to infection, too late for a solution to do much good at all.

[azure dirge]

Totally. There’s also the fact that the knight can read higher being text. Which we don’t ever really see Hornet do.

At least not without the help of the needolyn.

[vocal crypt]

"what good to foresee a demise unavoidable?"
great line imo

[upper elk]

So based on the First Sinner and Widow boss fights having two phases each that are very similar, I think I’m willing to say that some of the weavers have some sort of second wind in their instinct.

[azure dirge]

Needolyn and dream nail also kinda reinforce how higher beings can read the minds of others too when you think about it.

[lethal burrow]

The pale king saw a canvas left blank for many ages of the world and wrongly assumed it was a trait of the canvas that it could not be painted as opposed to a trait of the painters that they wished to see it blank.

[azure dirge]

In theory if Hornet used the needolyn on knight there would be nothing

Dream nail might work on knight though…

[dark rune]

to see the future and still be helpless to do anything. the tragedy, it was a great kingdom. the critical mistake was settling where the radiance had been.

[vocal crypt]

I think the "higher beings" texts are just absent from pharloom, at least for the most part. the pale king must have designed those personally, though I dont really know who for.

[azure dirge]

And even this is wrong because the painters wanted something to finally appear in the canvas, and eventually the Knight reshapes that canvas to become shape lord, focus, will, and being.

[dark rune]

gms wouldnt have made any "higher beings these words are for you alone" texts, considering she's the only higher being there.

[azure dirge]

They seem related to the ancient people, that’s what I thought at least.

[eternal sigil]

there is a fun theory out there that the "Higher beings, these words are for you alone" texts are diegetic to the game and that the player is the Higher Being guiding the Knight, hence why it can act. I think this is debunked with Sister of the Void and its revelations unfortunately

[lethal burrow]

you believe the ancient civilization wanted the shade Lord? what makes you says so?

[azure dirge]

Weavers also use the weave more.

[dark rune]

it looks to me like they are messages specifically to the vessels

[dry bridge]

I mean... knight does dream nail themselves, kinda. Needolin probably wouldnt work on knight because no silk to bind them & draw thoughts as well as no voice to sing aloud with.

[dark rune]

idk any other beings that can focus soul

[azure dirge]

The arcane egg lore text in silksong

[vocal crypt]

I wonder if wyrm foresight goes that far

I doubt he knew of the radiance's presence in hallownest, or he would have just settled somewhere else

[azure dirge]

That’s also possible

[lethal burrow]

does that not confirm the opposite? that they wanted emptiness, nonexistence, non-form. a lack.

I might be misremembering

[azure dirge]

Or maybe the radiance was attracted to him no matter where he settled, it did seem the exact counter to his nature

[azure dirge]

Well it seems more like they were waiting for something and wishing for something in that one.

[eternal sigil]

also I think it is fascinating that, as of Sister of the Void, the Shades - the progeny of the Pale King - were able to shield Hornet, his living flesh-and-blood daughter, from the Void and safely remove her from it.

Was this, somehow, part of The Plan™?

[vocal crypt]

this was my thought, yeah

although I think the tablet in the black egg disproves this, given that it addresses the reader as "vessel"

[lethal burrow]

Are you familiar with Rain World?

Because I would like to make a comparison, but it requires the background knowledge

[azure dirge]

Yes

[dark rune]

it says "vessel, though bound". so it was to THK

[eternal sigil]

He has gone and made an army of his heirs the de facto leading power within the Void, a dimension that was previously inscrutable to his will

[gilded depot]

anyone know if we know anything more about where pale beings come from, like grand mother silk?

[azure dirge]

Nah, I don’t think he could have ever suspected or expected that.

[silk dirge]

i just learned moss druid references act 3

[azure dirge]

It is solely knights contribution that led to that.

[silk dirge]

thats really cool

[dark rune]

it was probably significant enough. but still, hollow knight is the paragon of tragedy. mostly because of so many efforts gone to waste, doomed to fail, pursued with no real light at the end of the tunnel.

[vocal crypt]

though bound is part of the next sentence

"though bound, you shall know the state of the world"

but regardless it was meant for thk yeah so nvm whyd I even write this

[eternal sigil]

Pale is a weird term and I am suspicious that it refers to beings that have the ability to directly interface with/produce/shape Soul/Silk (I think the theories that these are the same essence in different states of being hold some water)

[dark rune]

the mask shards are described as being made of pale ore

[eternal sigil]

There are Higher Beings which are Pale (the Hallownest royals, GMS) and there are also non-HBs which are Pale (Hornet and possibly Eva)

[azure dirge]

It seems almost synonymous with higher beings too. I wonder if the pale somehow connects or is a broader force connected to soul in general.

[vocal crypt]

I think soul is more versatile than just being exclusive to pale beings

the soul sanctum bugs, snail shamans, and the weavers (within silk) all use soul without being pale or higher beings

[eternal sigil]

Moreover there are benign and inanimate substances which are called "pale", which either simply seem to be of immense quality, or likewise have something to do with Soul (ex. Masks)

[azure dirge]

The mask paint was also pale

[lethal burrow]

I think the ancient civilization in silk song wants what people misinterpret the ancient civilization in rain world to want.

Basically total self death and escape from reality, just completely gone.

"In silence your voice,
In darkness your form,
We higher who see you seeking,
Our shells yearn for your embrace."

"Erase our fear,
Eliminate our desire,
To suffer no more,
Void, cleanse us."

"...No will... No self... Shade..."

[bronze turret]

It's interchangeably used to refer to beings powerful enough to alter the natural state of the world and as just a synonym for the word "white", as some dialogue has led me think

[dark rune]

i think higher beings can just do stuff with soul much more easily

[azure dirge]

Liquid Lacquer “pale glaze”

[dry bridge]

Silk is the specific manifestation of soul through GMS and her progeny (either via creation like lace or via adoption as the weavers)
While soul is some sort of animating force present in all bugs, and pale beings seem to have a limmitless wellspring of it and some enhanced capabilities beyond most normal bugs

[azure dirge]

Wtf is Liquid Lacquer?

[dark rune]

paint, i guess?

[eternal sigil]

It is definitely dubious but it is kind of interesting how it all worked out, which pairs interestingly with the currently unknown extent of PK's/Wyrm's precognition abilities

[gilded depot]

what about the pale flowers, do we know anything about their source yet?

[vocal crypt]

interesting parallel to make

[dark rune]

dictionary moment

[azure dirge]

It’s used for masks, and it is denoted as pale.

[eternal sigil]

ooh good catch

[hushed yoke]

just had a thought that may just be me over thinking a creative decision, but.

why does the snow on mount fay look like that? its like, clumped into fuzzy spheres.

kinda makes me think its not just falling snow, but specifically frost that's formed on the surface of the grounds and walls, and the only reason its not solid ice is due to... well i don't have an answer to that, but i'm assuming it has to do with the surfaces outside of mount fay being different from most of the surfaces inside of mount fay. maybe dead greenery is what contributes to the shape? or bits of silk maybe?

or again i'm just over thinking it lmao

[dark rune]

wdym mask paint

[bronze turret]

It's a sealant, lots of Arts & Crafts objects need it to make it impermeable

[azure dirge]

I’m not asking what it is literally I’m asking why it’s used for what it is used for and what it is made of

[vocal kraken]

is styx and huntress the same species

[lethal burrow]

tbh I look at the void as a sort of weird conglomeration of Elden ring frenzied flame stuff and Rain World stuff

[eternal sigil]

some distant land; of importance enough that one of the Knights of Hallownest was sent to obtain some

[azure dirge]

Liquid Lacquer. You only get it if you do courier quests and it’s carried to the mask painter

Maker*

[vocal crypt]

anyone realize how powerful z'mere (spelling?) must be to give out everblooms like peppermints

[dark rune]

oh right

[vocal kraken]

is styx the same species as the huntress and runt

[lethal burrow]

I don't think they were sent to retrieve it. Did they not bring it from their home?

[lethal burrow]

How far are you in the game?

[azure dirge]

Again not what I meant lol

[hushed yoke]

who's runt

[vocal kraken]

i finished act 3

[dark rune]

or how careful. perhaps she grows them in a garden or something

[eternal sigil]

depending on interpretations of the Mourner's lore, it is quite possible she was made a Knight despite being so foreign expressly because she was able to obtain the blooms

[lethal burrow]

use super Duper jump where styx is and you will find your own answer

[azure dirge]

They might make it the same way Hornet got it. From her dreams or memory of them, fresh in her mind.

[vocal kraken]

just tell me vro plz

[bronze turret]

It also applies to masks, friend. The Liquid Lacquer is just something to make the masks impermeable.

[eternal sigil]

Depends on chronology. If she brought them before being a Knight no, if sent back to get them by royal order, yes

[lethal burrow]

The person who appears to act three if you don't complete the huntress request.

she's one of her kids.

[azure dirge]

Styx?

[hushed yoke]

god damn it i hate all the secrets behind super jumps, they could be anywhere 😭

[vocal crypt]

Styx isn't the huntress though, or is that not what you meant

[azure dirge]

Again NOT what I’m asking.

[hushed yoke]

oh dang rough

[vocal kraken]

huh

[bronze turret]

So what are you asking, exactly??

[eternal sigil]

Styx is delightfully weird and has somehow both given a shitload of mask lore and made it even more incomprehensible

[lethal burrow]

he's either one of them or he's wearing the mask if one of them

[azure dirge]

I’m asking what it is as in WHAT IS IT MADE FROM, why is it pale, why do they make masks with it, lol. I’m asking about the material and process itself.

[eternal sigil]

Hornet's greatest simp and it isn't even close

[dark rune]

at this point pale might just mean white

[eternal sigil]

and less of a creep than that damned flea

[bronze turret]

Friend, none of these answers are in the game, so it's safe to just fill in the gaps with perceivable reality.

[eternal sigil]

And then there's Skynx

[vocal kraken]

mayb cuz hes a hunter

[lethal burrow]

undisclosed materials.

idk paint is made with a large variety of materials, especially in times of old

[azure dirge]

It’s still fun to think about. Somehow, pale is related to the craft of masks.

[eternal sigil]

Who nearly nobody has mentioned despite also having large lore implications

[azure dirge]

Well the important part is that it’s denoted as pale.

And is the same color associated with pale.

[neat sandal]

because mask is pale?

[eternal sigil]

and also being fucking terrifying

[azure dirge]

Yeah, so what else is pale. Pale Beings.

[dark rune]

bro thinks self-enslaving himself to her is the best rizz of all time. he gets shut down by hornet several times tho 💀

[eternal sigil]

correct, he is in a Steel Soul exclusive secret room somewhere branching off of Styx's room and near his corpse

[azure dirge]

If you go there while he’s gone is he there?

[eternal sigil]

he also appears to be a Nosk

[vocal crypt]

seems clear that all kingdoms have a mask maker that give identity to bugs upon birth, though I can't tell how truly physical this process is. like its not like theyre going around shoving masks in newborns' faces, but the lacquer suggests that they literally make the masks (given how he says that the kingdom's new faces will be grateful for their sheen)

[bronze turret]

My apologies for the mistake, then. Usually when I discuss lore, I mostly aim to analyze it from a factual perspective

[eternal sigil]

almost all of his words are chopped up, remixed versions of what Hornet has already had to say, barring a few that have Styx's characteristic drawn out S's, including a phrase "ssssomeone save me"

[bronze turret]

Yeah, I never tested this myself, I'd be grateful if you give it a try and tell us the results!

[neat sandal]

so it is pale because pale being or pale being called pale because they are pale?

[eternal sigil]

also he just wears Styx's mask but upside down, with the rest of the body hidden in darkness

[azure dirge]

Yeah, and it also suggests that the masks are linked to the pale, and pale beings in some fashion.

[vocal crypt]

masks intrigue me so much, there's so much more to them than I thought at first

[azure dirge]

It’s Pale, which associates it with Pale beings in general.

[bronze turret]

Because it's white, I'm sure. It's used as another word for 'white' and by extension a word to refer to pale beings because they're white

[eternal sigil]

yeah mask lore is deeply baffling

[vocal crypt]

I suppose playing a part in the granting of life and intelligence qualifies as pale

[half cobalt]

so why is granma silk kidnapping mfs [like us] for silk?, isnt she like the god of silk?

[azure dirge]

Which might be why they use pale laquer. But pale substances don’t seem normal in general. Like with pale oil.

[eternal sigil]

I think the Citadel is doing that, because GMS is asleep and the Weavers are gone and they need their microplastics Silk to continue operations

[dark rune]

"for the kingdom's faceless, i will provide" or something. both mask makers say this, which makes me think they all are trained in the same place.
anyways, im guessing sometimes a baby is born with no mask and with swirly eyes, so mask maker is called and he puts a mask on them.

[edgy nebula]

skynx is just an enigma

[bronze turret]

She's not truly kidnapping us for the silk, the silk is just an indicator of their Weaver descend. She's forcibly taking weavers back to Pharloom to force them under her control again. It's why they did what they did to Widow.

[azure dirge]

Swirly eyes?

[lethal burrow]

“black, and white” then “dark and light” and then finally “pitch and pale” it goes on: “you stand at the gateway of these things, that now serve as a confinement of the 7th’s curse, a prison only frost could hold sanctum.”

[azure dirge]

Might also be for types of bugs that aren’t born with masks.

[dark rune]

yeah this is also possible

[vocal crypt]

makes me wonder why they're both on the fringes of their kingdoms, like why would someone so important be so alienated from the people who need them

[half cobalt]

wait what did they do to widow?[new to lore]

[azure dirge]

What’s this from?

[edgy nebula]

i cant wait for the mask maker in zoteboat

[azure dirge]

Oh

[eternal sigil]

Oh speaking of the swirly eyes. Let me lay out a few things for you all

• Mask Makers (unmasked)
• Snail Shamans
• the Act 3 symbol
• Mr Mushroom's eyes

What do all of these have In common?

[lethal burrow]

some dnd notes lol

[azure dirge]

That’s pretty cool actually

[bronze turret]

Oh, if you got the game on, read her journal entry, I don't want to spoil the impact of reading it!

[vocal crypt]

oh oh I know

good catch

[half cobalt]

she was asleep? that just creates more questions

[eternal sigil]

S P I R A L S

[dark rune]

it also seems to me that mask makers all were born without masks, needing to make themselves masks

[azure dirge]

Maybe to avoid the masks being tainted by the wills of others?

[eternal sigil]

Pharloom's Folly seems to imply as such, at least to an extent

[dark rune]

masks seem partially tied to identity, so ig you dont wanna mess that up

[bronze turret]

The spirals seem to be an overall visual symbol for a connection to a spiritual/occultist vision, people who can see past the physical world.

[lethal burrow]

aww tnx

[azure dirge]

Like if a mask focuses a bug and helps give them clarity and being, you might not want to work somewhere it could be somehow influenced before it’s been given.

[half cobalt]

so any idea what woke her up?

[vocal crypt]

I imagine the makers appear in new kingdoms the same way Mr mushroom appears in dying ones

some arcane sense that sends them from elsewhere

[neat sandal]

yeah. seriouly it just color
it like word "yellow" in chinese.
huáng both mean yellow and mean anything emperor relate.
but even shit is yellow (yeah, people get yellow pigment from shit)
and of course, shit have nothing relate to emperor

[lethal burrow]

well... hornet in the end

[vocal crypt]

except mushroom seems to be on some sort of expedition, but his stuff is way too vague to even guess at for me

[azure dirge]

Maybe they are also just necessary for the establishment of a kingdom in the first place

[bronze turret]

Yeah that is the logic I saw the devs use in this part of the lore, indeed!

[eternal sigil]

I have heard some people here talk about either a theory or something that the singing/veneration of the Citadel, spun up by the Weavers and inherited by the Choir, is designed to appease GMS and keep her at rest, and with this waning due to Silk in Pharloom waning GMS is getting withdrawal and starting to lash out (this causing the Haunting)

[azure dirge]

Mushroom is basically just symbolism for the game, the existence of the game and audience. He is the watcher, he comes to watch only at times of great change or calamity because that’s when a game or story is made.

[half cobalt]

but ppl are getting mad from silk before we got here, was that not gms doing it consciously?

[lethal burrow]

semiconsciously

[azure dirge]

He himself is not malevolent or the cause, he is not all knowing, he is simply there to bare witness to a story.

[lethal burrow]

not completely asleep, not completely awake

[dark rune]

like how a dolphin sleeps

[azure dirge]

It’s because their souls are beginning to wane

[vocal crypt]

doesn't the pharloom maker mention being mortal during their conversation about immortality? and if that's the case, I wonder what maker lifespans are like and how they go about replacing them

[lethal burrow]

???

[edgy nebula]

part of me is thinking the khann hibernation theory has a bit more merit than i tfirst thought

[bronze turret]

I would wager the craft is passed ahead like most craftsmen do, picking a pupil eventually to teach and carry out their work

[azure dirge]

If your soul and will is not strong enough the silk probably begins to suck the soul out of you. The silk can absorb and hold soul, so if a bugs soul is not strong enough it will be taken over. Not quite dead but not quite alive either.

That’s why some bugs get taken over while others don’t.

[lethal burrow]

source tho

[eternal sigil]

how so

[vocal crypt]

people are saying karmelita is still living after the heart is taken from her but isn't the whole point of the hearts to take their power in physical forms that becomes their lifeforce? that's why the shamans are so apprehensive about the whole operation, because so much majesty and power would be lost.

[edgy nebula]

no silk ghosts appear when you needolin him, even though they appear for some other dead characters

[half cobalt]

does tht mean something or it is something vague

[azure dirge]

Well that was my take away on how the haunting works, and it’s also how soul works. The Hollowknight also builds up focus and soul by killing things or hurting things.

[eternal sigil]

Karmelita definitely dies. Gilly confirms as such once you leave and come back

[vocal crypt]

mask maker apprentice comic would be the single best piece of external content istg

[dark rune]

guys i have a crazy idea.
using the scale of rosaries, and the mister mushroom ending of hollow knight, where we see him flying, we can use math to figure out how far pharloom is from hallownest.

[eternal sigil]

I also think that the Mask Makers having a "contract" is particularly fascinating

[vocal crypt]

this or something on the steel beings (though we'll most likely get more info on them in dlc)

[azure dirge]

Basically, the bugs have been taking silk into their bodies alongside soul for generations in pharloom in order to live longer and it’s been passed down to their offspring so everyone has silk in them, and that silk absorbs and retains soul, so if you are too weak minded the threads ensnare your soul and take over your body.

[dark rune]

if he does go to pharloom immediately and not some other crumbling kindom

[lethal burrow]

Elaborate

[bronze turret]

There's this fancomic made by Ruslanan which, while not focused on a Mask Maker apprentice, has a bit of a montage of the Mask Maker crafting a new, uncracked mask for Hollow. It's worth a watch, the art technique is astounding

[vocal crypt]

I haven't seen his cutscene, does it show him going from hallownest to pharloom?

[eternal sigil]

Dialogue with him in Silksong very much reminded me of some depictions of devils/demons in media. Not in the sense of malice, but in being some entity magically bound to a task

[dark rune]

shows him flying in the sky

[half cobalt]

ah so similar to radiance taking over weak mfs

[vocal crypt]

well yeah but where

[azure dirge]

Unfortunately we don’t know the timetable of when the events happen of his leaving and his arrival

[vocal crypt]

I'll remember that

[lethal burrow]

The sky

[craggy smelt]

off to the next game

[dark rune]

account for gravity and the shape of his flight path, also taking into account the distance of him from hallownest and the size of a rosary to real life, we could figure out how far he is going

[vocal crypt]

fair enough

[azure dirge]

Radiance is different because it was stronger, it would appear in you dreams and eventually erode you away, the silk is basically just inside people and if you aren’t strong enough it will take over through GMS influence.

[wary plover]

Is the twisted child a parasite or a curse

[eternal sigil]

yes

[vocal crypt]

I doubt the planet is the same as real life

[lethal burrow]

both/same thing

[edgy nebula]

very much so. yes

[vocal crypt]

this

[bronze turret]

Please do, the art is awe-inspiring (and by awe-inspiring, I mean it's one of the best styles I've seen any fanart of HK drawn in so far, alongside Derokko-Sinnermode)

[dark rune]

i think we can still figure out how far he is going

[neat sandal]

he have flight path?

[azure dirge]

Well we know it took him seven years to get there /s

[eternal sigil]

I think it is a magic parasite that has only not consumed Hornet xenomorph style because Hornet is literally built different

[wary plover]

Bro they're not the same thing wtf. A parasite is like a barnacle or a tapeworm. A curse is something magical

[half cobalt]

what does GMS get from this servitude? or does it strengthen her? or was it not explained

[azure dirge]

Not really explained, it might be to collect her soul back, might be in efforts to escape. It could also just be more hidden into the lore.

[eternal sigil]

Higher Beings seem to need/really want worship intrinsically

[vocal crypt]

do you maybe have a link or title of the comic? looking up that artist just brings up all of their stuff

[azure dirge]

All the pilgrims come to pharloom because they are being drawn due to the silk in their bodies

[dark rune]

behold, parabolic flight path

[azure dirge]

That’s what pilgrims are.

[wary plover]

My interpretation is that the twisted child is a cry for help, a sort of interplay between murder and procreation

[lethal burrow]

greyroot is the witch of the woods

[half cobalt]

escape from.... the citadel mfs?

[eternal sigil]

It might be an American Gods sort of deal, wherein their metaphysical power derives from worship and they need it to sustain and be magic

[neat sandal]

he can just flight straight after that point and nothing you can do about it

[azure dirge]

Well the citadel seems to be some sort of trap to contain GMS to some extent.

[wary plover]

Sort of like freiren?

[dark rune]

i think he launches himself off the ground

[lethal burrow]

erm, the radiance created the moths tho

[lethal burrow]

no more like a classical witch of the woods

[vocal crypt]

I dont think there's evidence for this, might be wrong but I dont think theyre under the influence of silk until theyre actually in pharloom (even then not until direct exposure with silk)

[azure dirge]

Sometimes magic can be combined with something mundane or normal

[edgy nebula]

do we know what skynx is? they are very curious

[dark rune]

no fire coming out beneath him

[azure dirge]

Magic parasite.

[lethal burrow]

we know he doesn't eat Taco Bell then

[neat sandal]

you can see literrally air come out of him

[azure dirge]

We literally see him just fly up out of the ground when he leaves I don’t think he operates on normal logic for his movement

[hidden crater]

Mr mushroom is a intercontinental ballistic missile

[vocal crypt]

yeah seriously

[eternal sigil]

well, in the real world there are an incalculable number of parasites and parasitoids that affect insects; worms that impel their hosts to drown themselves so they can emerge into water, fungi that turn ants into zombies, barnacles that grow as root-like masses inside crabs and replace their gonads with their own to use them as breeding husks

the Twisted Bud just elucidates this in a story with humanized bug characters, in all of its horror

[wary plover]

I hate mr mushroom 's face, it looks so weird and zoned out and creepy

[dark rune]

i just see his legs waving in the wind

[lethal burrow]

You know those things in doctor offices with the beads? He's just riding along an invisible version of those.

[vocal crypt]

he's high in more ways than one apparently

[wary plover]

I really like this interpretation.

[azure dirge]

You are so right.

[half cobalt]

so correct me if am wrong, the citadel mfs imprisoned a plae being and starts "silking" her for expanding their lives, but eventually grandma takes over everything with the same silk they took, and we[hornet] helps fix this mess by either binding her silk to ourselves or feeding her to the void?

[dark rune]

so then, once we figure out how long it takes him to reach the ground after launching, we can divide 7 years by that, and combined with the distance we figure out beforehand of his flights, we can figure out how far pharloom is

[wary plover]

Would you rather be sherma or mr mushroom or the unravelled

[dark rune]

mr mushroom

[azure dirge]

Something along those lines. I’m sure there is more nuance to it.

[edgy nebula]

sherma

[lethal burrow]

well the Weavers are the ones who imprisoned her

[wary plover]

Why tho

[wary plover]

Okay but sherma is weak in combat no?

[half cobalt]

why? same reaason? for expanging their life?

[azure dirge]

She also seems to be running out or low in silk/soul? or it seems so. Seems she can only make so much. Lace seems to be difficult enough for her to maintain as a being made of silk.

[dark rune]

just look at this dialogue

[half cobalt]

any idea abt the cursed child ending

[lethal burrow]

Sharma, does that annoying thing that Christians do where they take good things you did and strip you of the credit and instead thank the Lord like bitch, he didn't do shit. It was me thank me...... I don't wanna be a hyper religious Christian....

mr. mushroom seems cool

[azure dirge]

Genius

[edgy nebula]

not only am i sinless so i can stay in the blasted steps and the last judge can protect me, i can also sing with my little instrument

[dark rune]

i wonder if this total distance is bigger than the circumference of the earth

[lethal burrow]

3 potential reasons.

1. They perceived her to be lying about the fact that they were divine children
2. They wanted to be the ones that were in charge.
3. They perceived that they were somehow "unfree" under her and wished to change that.

[wary plover]

Why doesn't anyone wanna be the unravelled because he's big like mr mushroom and is in the white ward like sherma

[azure dirge]

I haven’t seen it. I assume it’s because the cursed child is a parasite consuming and replacing hornets soul though, and more soul would help this process. We get told this. There’s a bunch of unique dialogue with the cursed crest on you can get. It seems to be put into creatures to take over what was there in a sick version of a phoenix’s rebirth, rebirthing from the soul of another in an endless cycle, killing gms basically allows it to consume the soul of a pale being.

[ebon silo]

But ngl why would they really be mad at GMS I mean you just gain a new form and your kinda powerful and all but why bite the hand that feeds you

[lethal burrow]

lmao

[wary plover]

Actually what exactly is the code behind the mr mushroom lore

[vocal crypt]

unknown

[dark rune]

as a christian, when the door opened because of hornet, and sherma claimed it was because of his faith, i did wonder if tc was making fun of christianity to an extent. probably looking too far into it, tho.

[azure dirge]

Weavers are greedy. We get shown this a lot.

[dark rune]

im taking algebra 2 i might try it

[ebon silo]

Are we the bad guys

[eternal sigil]

most religions have followers guilty of this sort of thing

[lethal burrow]

it's just an annoying religious thing.

Christianity isn't special, but it is the most well-known for this particular annoyance in my experience, but maybe that's just because I live in the west.

[azure dirge]

No. Not really. Hornet is different from the weavers. Gms dragged Hornet into the situation. Hornet is a third party in all this.

[lethal burrow]

btw are you protestant, orthodox, or Catholic?

[ebon silo]

Still the bad guys

[chrome atlas]

Tbf by act 3 Sherma's plenty willing to give you credit for doing things, we can just call it character growth

[dark rune]

nondenominational

[lethal burrow]

k

[ebon silo]

When was this a faction

[dark rune]

its a faction out of not being a faction

[eternal sigil]

inherently a system based on belief will have people of the inclination that their beliefs will affect the material world, and in an immediate and relevant way to their context

[azure dirge]

It’s more like nobody is totally good.

[eternal sigil]

Sherma is clearly a true believer and acts the part

[lethal burrow]

ye

[azure dirge]

Hornet and Lace weren’t responsible for the sins of their forebears. That’s the entire theme and point of act 3.

[wary plover]

What's your favorite faction if you're not allowed to say bone bottom

[azure dirge]

R we allowed to say shadelord :D

[ebon silo]

I keep forgetting Christianity has like different factions like it's fking 40k

Actually no it is fucking 40k

[wary plover]

War hammer?

[lethal burrow]

that's a character not a faction.

Closest you can get is saying ancient civilizations

[ebon silo]

Yeah

[eternal sigil]

indeed, and Hornet saving Lace is in part from the fact that Lace too is the system she was born from (probably less significant than it being the only good way to get GMS to stand the fuck down and stop making the Void infest everything through her network, but a part of it)

[azure dirge]

Technically, it is made up of all the vessels shades so it would be a faction

Vessels faction Ez

[eternal sigil]

moreover both of them are kin and in some way the shadow of their parent/grandparent looms over who they are

[azure dirge]

Lace also helped Hornet

[lethal burrow]

"looms"

[wary plover]

Weird but I actually really like the jailor bugs, I mean come on one of them even cosplayed Hornet that's 10/10

[lethal burrow]

[dark rune]

the more official term is "denomination" but anyways what matters is the ones that arent super twisted in beliefs (wink wink mormons wink wink (actually they might go to heaven? idk. it's confusing. we can't know. apparently everyone will be judged off of their knowledge or something so i cant really draw conclusions ) will be going to heaven)

[azure dirge]

Hornet would have been dragged in if not for Lace

[azure dirge]

He got what he deserved

[eternal sigil]

this is true, though that was as much an act of petulant defiance as one of altruism if not more

[wary plover]

Are you talking about the very start of the game or the very end of the game, or the part where hornet sets the trap in the middle

[lethal burrow]

lace did it to spite her mother though

[azure dirge]

When gms grabs Hornet to drag them into the void snare Lace interrupts

[eternal sigil]

Lace resents Hornet for being a more ideal daughter for GMS but still has some view of her as kin as thus

[azure dirge]

She did it to spite her mother and because of what Hornet said to her. Hornet told her she was her own being despite her artificial origins.

[wary plover]

Yeah but it was worth it

[wind oar]

she just says that to be stubborn, lacenet is real

[wary plover]

The fly spent his entire life and got to do what no other bug dared to do

[azure dirge]

Hornet is also looking for a better ending and path forward in life and is purposefully trying to learn from the mistakes of those she’s known and witnessed

Hornet is a fully developed character. She’s trying to make a better world.

[ebon silo]

So basically kratos in ragnarok

[wary plover]

Her character arc is awesome

[azure dirge]

So real

[eternal sigil]

Yeah I think it is of multiple causes. Lace is written as consistently petty and childish but she isn't a fool and is written as being a person with her own agency in spite of it all.

[neat sandal]

Hornet killed gay prince/karmelita even have 3 nessesary heart

[azure dirge]

Hornet is just Kratos in ragnarok

[eternal sigil]

*can kill them

moreover while there are arguments for letting either live, especially Karmelita, both can also be argued as mercy kills

[azure dirge]

Need the power man. The prince is also not necessarily a good guy given some of the context. Karmelita is on the verge of her end, she probably preferred to go out with a bang like that.

One final dance at her prime. That’s the dream of some one like her probably.

[dark rune]

as someone with 3 hearts already, i WILL still kill the guy in the coral tower. yes, i killed gay man and singer lady. remorse? very little. i want my memento thing.

[sullen cave]

I'd just like to point out the interesting contrast between the Nailsmith, ||Pinmaster Plinney||, and the weapons they dedicate themselves to.

Nailsmith has a more robust/rugged approach to his work. He reshapes the Knight's nail (beautiful and elegant, but with a broader, stronger shape) through strength, willing the weapon to take the shape he desires. The Nailsmith has dedicated his entire life to nails, and it showed in the remaking of the Knight's Old Nail into the Pure Nail.

||Pinmaster Plinney, on the other hand, has a more delicate and gradual approach to his work. He hones pins (beautiful and elegant, but with a sleeker, more flexible shape) through precision, his actions guided by the shape of the weapon. Even when working with Hornet's needle, a foreign weapon of foreign metal (and the perfect compromise between Nail and Pin), the Pinmaster's art shone through in the refining of Hornet's Needle into the Palesteel Needle.||

Despite such different approaches to their work, both take great care and pride in their craft. However, when both reached the "summit" of their careers, whereas the Nailsmith thought he'd seen it all and wanted a release of his own making, ||Pinmaster Plinney took a moment to admire the unparalleled beauty of what I assume to be his magnum opus, and continued his work in service of Bellhart. In all likelyhood, he's planning to continue to work to reveal that kind of splendor in the Pins of Pharloom, too.||

I love that TC made such beautiful and contrasting characters, even if these two will never meet (at least not in life).

[azure dirge]

Karmelita almost seems to ask you to do it too.

[eternal sigil]

also the green prince is discussed in the bestiary as having been aggressively murderous to outsiders during his reign and basically flips his shit at Hornet for coming to Verdania in spite of her trying to reassure him. He is a dickweed tbh

[ebon silo]

Yeah it's not like hornet invaded his home for no apparent reason

[chrome atlas]

It's a little up for interpretation, but GP's boss kill text can be read as him being happy to have died with his roommate

[azure dirge]

It’s also a cool contrast between Knight and Hornet. Hornet’s strength was there or begin with, her nail was already strong and wonderfully forged, whereas knights was not. Knight had to gain strength and become strong, Hornet had to refine her strength and expose it.

[eternal sigil]

Karmelita definitely seems amenable to it but also realistically could save the Skarr realm, or at least keep it stable, if she is still alive when the Haunting stops and her rule over the remaining living Skarr resumes

[dark rune]

"and they were roommates"

[azure dirge]

Well that’s assuming she can even rule them in her state.

[ebon silo]

Y'know hornets diagonal attacks are from the bee enemies in HK no wonder right

man I hate those bees

[azure dirge]

We get to be them now…

Sting like a bee…

[dark rune]

we get to bee them
gets dragged away while screaming with tape over mouth

[ebon silo]

I'm silking it

[azure dirge]

I thought of that immediately after sending it lol

[eternal sigil]

that is true, though a lot of real life rule of eusocial insects is innate and based on hormone networks + familial relationships (most hives/colonies are basically a queen and her children, and Karmelita's realm appears to have been at least partly this)

[neat sandal]

"It was a savage act, no doubt, but the reason was just."
Hornet admit is was a savage act herself
and the reason was not just cause she already have 3 hearts

[dark rune]

you can get the hearts in any order. i got the verdania one as my 2nd.

[azure dirge]

When you get three it unmarks the quest though, so it’s completely player choice. It’s also not even a part of 100%.

[eternal sigil]

It is said she "united the Skarr" so other Skarr queens can exist, but unless there were subordinate queen-mothers in her realm she was still likely the only reproducing female in the kingdom

Absent that, you end up with a situation like Vespa's Hive. Doomed to a slow extinction with the queen's death

[azure dirge]

The skarr also seem to rule through strength to some measure, so she might just get replaced by the next queen.

[eternal sigil]

Yeah, if a new queen emerges from the Skarr survivors that would probably be the case.

[azure dirge]

Her current state isn’t very strong so she could get overthrown.

[edgy nebula]

im a bit curious as to why it seems that discolored/mottled skarrs get hunted down/outcasted

[neat sandal]

it should have locked after that quest
but I can still do it
so yeah. I am the one did the evil act here but Hornet is evil too cause she not prevent me do that

[azure dirge]

Also a question of if she can even be a queen anymore. She might not be able to reproduce.

[edgy nebula]

i get mottled skarr, because he sold us stuff, but i dont get why gurr the outcast was outcasted in the first place