sk-lore

[narrow sky]

if we get a godhome-like ending i don't think she will become a god

[keen compass]

So who's to say Hornet can't also harness the void with the Knight's aid to give it focus?

Or guide it

Hornet could guide the void along silk

[wary plover]

There is some truth to this theory, the fact they have a weaver nest in the void, is very strange

[keen compass]

Since we know void easily piggyback's off it

And follows up it

[narrow sky]

maybe we get some void related tool

[wary plover]

Silk is a medium for soul, and void follows soul

That's why void can spread through silk

[keen compass]

We also know in steelsoul that the one dudebro summons a void creature from a mass of corpses

So the void does have a huge shadow over Silksong

[wary plover]

Ye what's up with that anyway

[narrow sky]

that is very interesting

[keen compass]

It thematically has the same weight it does in HK1

Which is very interesting imo

[narrow sky]

maybe it has some connection to regrets

[keen compass]

So I think there is more to Silksong in future content and with the void

[keen compass]

The guy wanted freedom and needed power, so he looked to the void

[buoyant salmon]

is Nosk some kind of a corrupted Weaver?

[narrow sky]

sharpe looks like he has something to do with void

[buoyant salmon]

kinda like Kingsmould

[narrow sky]

could be

[buoyant salmon]

which also wearing steel-like armor (not the Steel from the Steel Masters though)

[narrow sky]

are the corpse creepers spiders?

[narrow sky]

true

[round adder]

I feel like it could just be that the weavers wanted to plot away from GMS and since she clearly doesn't like the void too much it was the perfect place to setup base, maybe?

[azure rivet]

there is a torn off weaver head in his boss room

[mental cypress]

what was put in the kingsmould to make the knights?

[round adder]

Void I believe

[edgy barn]

They could also just have been trying to study Void for its unique properties. There probably were multiple reasons

[narrow sky]

isn't that just a devout

[edgy barn]

Void and Soul

[mental cypress]

got it

oh wait wrong channel

[dusty sparrow]

yes

[quick geyser]

So like, I still have no idea what the little white butterfly in the beginning is and why it saved Hornet (whether intentionally or not).

[dusty sparrow]

as far as i understand spider doesn’t necessarily mean weaver, like the devouts were spiders “beasts” but not weavers, maybe they served the weaver clan?

[dusty sparrow]

Same but it’s interesting that those same butterflies guided Hornet through the Mist

[narrow sky]

i think the spider tribe was always there and when the weavers showed up they just joined the spiders

[brisk finch]

Seemingly, Lace wanted us freed to either

1. have us kill her mom
2. kill us so we couldn't be taken by her mom

[quick geyser]

Hmm interesting, so nobody has yet to have a definitive answer?

[dusty sparrow]

probably to kill us since she tries to kill us soon after

[quick geyser]

That seems fair

[brisk finch]

Lace's character is a tad ambiguous, but she was definitely willing to kill us either way

[dusty sparrow]

My theory is the little ethereal moths are not one force, they can be controlled with music. Lace can do it (we see her conducting them) and Hornet can do it by playing the needolin to help her lead them out of the Mist

[floral dawn]

quick question about the butterflies we see in the game

from what I can gather, silk is seemingly implied to be the soul of a bug (as per the ghosts in the mist being a mix of silk and mist) among other things (also dictates the lifespan as per the item description in the bellhart home for instance)

however before I noticed all of that, I assumed butterflies were that, since they show up when you break down the little bug robots in the clockwork core; would that mean that they're not the soul but just the mind of somebody, and they're the reason why the robots are alive ?

and if we follow that logic, was the plan of the PK in hollow knight to create bugs out of void via the cast to give them a body, give them a mind using a butterfly, and bind those together using silk to give them soul ?

[dusty sparrow]

i don’t think PK used silk or had any power over silk

[azure rivet]

oh well i thought it was a weaver bc of the mask

6 eyes yk

i assumed he might be a weaver that tore off his mask

[dusty sparrow]

and I don’t think silk constitues a bug’s soul—it haunts the bugs of pharloom and is a curse. it’s not natural for most of the bugs to have silk inside them

[azure rivet]

like that one weaver in ss that's so fkin annoying

[azure rivet]

only weavers right?

[floral dawn]

didn't he have spools of silk in the white palace ? I might be misremembering that tbh

[dusty sparrow]

no he didn’t

silk was only abundant in deepnest in HK

[azure rivet]

dy guys know the names of the coral tower bugs?

bc idk the chunky flying one w the white mask

[narrow sky]

They do have similar faces

[narrow sky]

Check the wiki

[azure rivet]

ic

[azure rivet]

ye i found it now, karaka, karak gor, dirznarga, conchflies lesser and greater, kakri, yagos, alitas, corrcrust karakas and the watcher at the edge

the watcher has to be way more powerful than the normal karaka

[narrow sky]

Also garak from HK is 100% a coral member

[azure rivet]

hmmm

wait who's garak????

[narrow sky]

His name is garro i misremembered

"Are you a warrior, little one? A true warrior is one who can stand strong in the midst of a storm."

[pale narwhal]

was that from the resting grounds

[narrow sky]

Indeed

[azure rivet]

ooh

[azure rivet]

so like perpetos noo

the dragonfly

[narrow sky]

Perpetos noo could have been from verdania

[azure rivet]

i was thinking so too, with the big enemies that look like dragonflies but i wouldn't think so

his head looks very different and so do his wings, he also wields a nail which they don't, they seem like primitive creatures afaik

[narrow sky]

True

[azure rivet]

this guy probably was friends with ckk

[azure rivet]

perhaps another kingdom of marshes, or a kingdom from above ground in a time before whatever tf happened to that place

no1 knows how long he's been dead

magnus strong might also be one of the coral bugs i think

im procrastinating rn sm1 halp

[drifting apex]

could someone explain what this line is supposed to mean?

[narrow sky]

Maybe the ckk sent him to another kingdom to see what was out there

[narrow sky]

They pray to gms so it's easier to silk them up

[bright oyster]

maybe there was a little silk inside them all along, like how we eat microplastics

joke (not)

[narrow sky]

I think they do but idk if it has anything to do with this line

[azure rivet]

perhaps, he seems differently designed so maybe he's more suited to land than his oceanic bros

[azure rivet]

perhaps their origin is tied to silk or smth

no pun intended

also

wth r the crawfather and friends supposed to be? are they like bugs that witnessed crows once and thought they were cool or smth?

[narrow sky]

No clue

[azure rivet]

fair they r kinda js random

[narrow sky]

Mosquitos maybe

Wearing cloaks

[floral dawn]

I read it as "they got silk ijnected in them back in whiteward, so the silk tied to itself"

[fossil ledge]

Most if not all Citadel bugs already had GMS' silk injected into them to extend their life and keep them healthy, seemingly some kind of mandatory procedure for all who dwell in the Citadel. Once GMS began the haunting, all she had to do was connect the threads, basically

[ebon silo]

What do you guys would win prime ant tribe vs prime mantis tribe

[fossil ledge]

If I had to guess, Mantis Tribe

[ebon silo]

But the numbers game though and considering the ants can just burrow their way in

[fossil ledge]

They're constantly at odds with Deepnest and winning, while we've never seen the Skarr Tribe go against anything besides deer

[fossil ledge]

Deepnest has the exact same advantages though, and look at the result

[ebon silo]

Deer? Like deer deer 🦌

[fossil ledge]

Hardbone bugs

[azure rivet]

interesting, dyk if seth is a flea or another bug?

[modest coyote]

They wear clothes made of silk buddy

[ebon silo]

For the boss matchup though both fights are like a dance 2 of karmelitas body guard and herself against the mantis leaders and maybe the traitor too if it was prime day

[azure rivet]

if u don't kill the moorwing boss does the flea caravan murk him?

[modest coyote]

He is explicitly not a flea

[azure rivet]

oh

[ebon silo]

Would it be equal ground or

[azure rivet]

i think karmelita should get her whole posse of skarr guys from the gauntlet cos the first lot aren't rlly dangerous

[ebon silo]

Not to mention they have more types than what the mantis has as far as we know

it's only like 4 types while the skarrs has like what 6? One is a big fat brute that could just tank hits and the smaller ones gang up one mantis to another like how ants fight pulling limb by limb

[narrow hinge]

where are the steel seers from

[azure rivet]

that is true, and the skarr ants r just as warlike as the mantids

[glossy badger]

There's a steel city that's mentioned but we don't know fully

[azure rivet]

any1 know why verdania fell? and how the coral kingdom's water all just disappeared?(crust king khann's coral kingdom that once inhabited the sands of karak, we get a portion of it in the coral tower)

[terse warren]

Pollution basically

And generally the Citadel exploiting natural resources

[lusty cove]

someone remind me why did the weavers disappear from the world

[azure rivet]

ohh, i thought that it had smth to do with a pale being or smth, i also hv a theory that the karak kingdom fell bc of the heat from the citadel's forges boiling up the water but then the bugs would likely all be dead and the coral kingdom seems way too old for that

[azure rivet]

they didn't 'disappear they js ran away right?

[flint wadi]

my theory is that going of the fact that pharlooms only waterway are the salt lakes on the right, the citadel being built blocked off the delta to coral gorge and caused it to dry up

[lusty cove]

functionally the same for pharloom

[terse warren]

They ran away because they were being hunted down, first by the citadel then by gms

[lusty cove]

hunted by the citadel pre-haunting or after

[azure rivet]

perhaps, tho couldnt' the water of the sands have come from above?

[terse warren]

Well I meant pre haunting but "hunted" is the right word for that, more like kicked out forcibly

[azure rivet]

like the surface and maybe it seeped down deeper and deeper into the earth beyond the kingdoms?

[sacred heath]

I see we’re still in the “explaining points that are already proved ingame” stage of theorizing

[lusty cove]

i had thought the weavers were on good terms with the citadel pre haunting because i heard the threefold song was made by the weavers to seal silk and then entrusted to citadel people

[flint wadi]

theres no waterways above besides ice and there isnt really any way the citadel could freeze it over

[terse warren]

Yes

[azure rivet]

is it possible that the karak kingdom once took up way more of the map but the only udestroyed corals remain int he sands of karak?

[lusty cove]

i see

[terse warren]

Believe it or not, the game hasn't been out for 7 years yet

[azure rivet]

perhaps the water seeped in from above and submerged the area? and then over time it sunk below

[terse warren]

It included all of blasted too most likely

[flint wadi]

i mean that is a given esp going of indevcmaps

[azure rivet]

makes sense, tho seeing that it's from a bygone age' so before the rest of the region it might've been much more

[terse warren]

Although that's more so from some early screenshots than in-game evidence

[azure rivet]

yeah and the description of how old it is doesn't deny this

[flint wadi]

problem is its specifically was citadels doing

and water seeping away naturally isnt really something it couldve contribute to

[azure rivet]

the karaka don't ever mention silk or void or pale beings or anything like that, only claws crushing conquering ruling and 'saving them all'

[azure rivet]

the kingdom is older than the citadel tho?

[terse warren]

The kingdom isn't THAT old, or at least Khaan's rule isn't, since he seemingly is (barely) still alive by the events of the game

[azure rivet]

he's still alive?

[terse warren]

You literally get his beating heart

[azure rivet]

he might have survived like his watcher he stationed at the edge through sm kinda stasis/hibernation

[flint wadi]

yes but its downfall (as well as verdanias and bilewaters) are emphasized to be caused by the citadel

[azure rivet]

tru, i thought that was sm kinda weird magicko sstuff

[azure rivet]

interesting, can u point me to the lore abt that?

[flint wadi]

its literally the main plot point of act 3 and the hearts of pharloom

you seek out past strength to recover the everbloom

[terse warren]

Karmelita meanwhile just got old and the Skarrs were dumbasses 🥀

[flint wadi]

this strength is gone because one by one they fell (except nyleth i guess)

[azure rivet]

ye but where does that connect to the citadel?

[azure rivet]

the skarrs js don't seem to hv a purpose anymore or a goal

[fossil ledge]

Sure, but the Mantis Lords canonically took down a Garpede lol. I somehow feel like the brutes don't really stand a chance by comparison xD

[terse warren]

Nyleth is dead-ish, she's kinda connected to Shellwood itself so that's why she's still "alive" but also ehhh

[fair zealot]

hey chat i have a question. why do pinstress and second sentinel have the same charge attack

[azure rivet]

brute killed me and i took down mantis lords

[fossil ledge]

Skill issue xD

[terse warren]

Sentinels were based off of the Pinstress Sisters

[flint wadi]

the reason we lost red coral gorge and got karak/steps is because they wanted to show citadels devestation on pharlooms ecosystems, its stated in acmi map timeline

[zinc pivot]

One day someone will make a mod that gives us coral memory again

[azure rivet]

makes sense, but the kingdom surely could have found another water source

[zinc pivot]

Just like Pale Court

[fossil ledge]

As Aubergine said, the Pinstress mentions how the Citadel bugs worked extensively with the order of pinstresses, before betraying them once they had what they wanted. It's likely the Sentinels were programmed with pinstress techniques

[terse warren]

It's really not that easy

[azure rivet]

likee, it seems like such a stupid way to end a civilisation when they hv an entire army of annoying ahh goobers to take ti back?

[fair zealot]

ah i missed that, ty

[terse warren]

This is also really not that easy

[zinc pivot]

It does beg the question, why was the sentinel decommissioned

[terse warren]

Plus 5 bucks says that's gonna be DLC

[glossy badger]

All to bow...
All lost to fear...
Remember our strength...
Remember our rule...
Now none to resist... But us...
Alone... against the pale light...

Crust king khan statue memory thread

[zinc pivot]

Well i did say one day, i know pale court has a lot of effort put into it

[azure rivet]

oh, i only remember the line after defeating him, that line is dope

[terse warren]

And the citadel is harnessing the power of a god what's your point

[flint wadi]

1. the civilization was devestated first by grandma silk, then by citadels colonization

2. theres nothing karaks flora could do about the gorge drying up

[fossil ledge]

That is indeed a good question. I always had the sensation that something about their directive to protect the citizens of the Citadel went against what the higher caste wanted, and thus had them shut down, but this isn't necessarily based on anything but a hunch, so

[azure rivet]

true, it would js be so cool if the coral could make sm kinda resurgence

like if hornet in the future could restore one of the kingdoms or smth

[glossy badger]

It's pretty easy to miss especially because it's gone in act 3

[flint wadi]

i mean the coral survived, its just a lot of diversity lost but its still there

[terse warren]

I highly doubt GMS did anything to the regions herself, the rulers aren't that old, it's just that the Citadel Is Always referred to as "Under GMS" because she's a god whose power is still what the citadel revolves around

[azure rivet]

ahh

[azure rivet]

all the cool parts r gone, the last karaka is the watcher and like the entire sapient population is ded

[flint wadi]

maybe, karms dialogue kinda talks about cursing gms herself so it makes it seem like she mightve been involved

[ember river]

And I hate that

[fossil ledge]

I mean, they all mention her involvement specifically. Meanwhile the Citadel's involvement isn't all that clear in most cases. It's heavily implied her power or presence was interferring with the leaders' connection to their environments, causing all of them to weaken and wane

[ember river]

The citadel clearly had a different agenda when ruled by bugs

[azure rivet]

before the appearance of gms couldn't the karak have reclaimed their water?

[terse warren]

Feels more like it's because it's GMS's power... The Citadel wasn't even a thing when GMS was ruling

[ember river]

The sheer presence of a Pale Being is enough to destabilize whatever system they had going on, the Shamans do mention how Verdania fell to GMS and the system to keep her asleep

[zinc pivot]

To be honest we don’t have a clue where karaks water source exactly is

[fossil ledge]

There isn't much to suggest the Coral civilization had any issues with a lack of water before GMS' arrival

[flint wadi]

my humble theory

[ember river]

I don't think Khann died after the citadel was built, by the looks of the needolin dialogue they died off when GMS still ruled

[flint wadi]

citadel/underworks blocked it

[azure rivet]

it doesn't necessarily have to come from the putrefied place right?, it could hv come from somewhere else

[zinc pivot]

Its quite literally a stretch

[terse warren]

They guy is in no way that old

[edgy barn]

why not

[ember river]

Why not

[azure rivet]

it kinda makes sense but it doesn't entirely guarantee that

[flint wadi]

is it, it goes up to shellwood

[azure rivet]

he could be, his watcher he stationed at the edge seems pretty old from the description

[fossil ledge]

Exactly

[zinc pivot]

Shame that the watcher only gave us a memento

[fossil ledge]

What would you have preferred?

[glossy badger]

Mine is that mount fay froze over

[fair zealot]

an interesting boss fight

[heavy falcon]

Basically every bug nowadays is filled with silk due to it being passed down from their ancestors which had silk inserted in them

[zinc pivot]

Some coral themed armor or weapon enhancement?

[ember river]

That one's pretty cool actually

[terse warren]

It's already been several generations since the Citadel got taken over by the caste and the Silk experiments were done

So Khaan is already generations old

Is he just straight up millennia old or what

He wasn't a higher being there's no reason for him to live so long

[ember river]

Khann is pretty dead

[heavy falcon]

Barely clinging to life on that chair lmao

[ember river]

So are his soldiers except the Watcher

[terse warren]

We get his beating heart

[ember river]

No, I'd say dead dead, or at least his soldiers are

[azure rivet]

he could still be alive, he could be supporte by some kinda stasis or dormancy

[fair zealot]

from. the past

[azure rivet]

like a kind of great sleep like the watcher karaka he sent

[terse warren]

No, the heart is from his present body

[heavy falcon]

Oh shit that makes sense

[ember river]

From a memory, we get his heart at his prime

[azure rivet]

speaking of, do we know if the karaka standing guard around his throne are dead?

[ember river]

Also, when a coral soldier dies, they are surrounded by coral growths and seemingly consumed by them, happens in the memory and to Watcher at the Edge. Khann just crumbles to dust

You know, like a statue or a long dead husk

[terse warren]

The Heart quite literally shoots out from his body after which he turns to Crust, which is what dead Karakians do when defeated

[azure rivet]

could they all js be sleeping? bc they can survive outside of water, all of them can so why would the loss of water cause their kingdom to collapse? and when they die they turn to coral but this army of em doesn't

[azure rivet]

i think karaka makes more sense as a label

[edgy barn]

Oggrim in HK had been alive since before Hallownest fell, and he had lived long enough before that to be a renowned knight

[terse warren]

Khaan also crusts up before turning to dust

[ember river]

Oh wait he does

How the hell is he alive

[azure rivet]

after we tear his heart out

[terse warren]

So clearly it's not been generations since Hallownest fell

[edgy barn]

also, there's the Watcher at the Edge who appears to have been in some form of suspended animation, a similar thing could be occuring with Khann, allowing him to live past his lifespan

[azure rivet]

probably js a competitive elite sleeper

[terse warren]

He's Him

[ember river]

A long time elapsed but definetely not that long

[azure rivet]

i think the army of karaka guarding khann might still be alive

[ember river]

In Hallownest some bugs did have a couple generations

But the longer lived ones didn't even die

[terse warren]

We know for a matter of fact that Pharloom is WAY older than Hallownest like it's not even CLOSE

[azure rivet]

pale beings can live forever, these leaders of old kingdoms r like the next best thing so why not

[ember river]

I mean, you can just see that in the architecture

[azure rivet]

?

[ember river]

Still though, Khann says to oppose HER, the other rulers don't really mention the Monarch explicitly

[terse warren]

We don't know that they can live forever and also no they aren't the next best thing

[ember river]

They really aren't, they're normal ass bugs

[zinc pivot]

The thing is what sustains them isn’t available any longer

[terse warren]

I think Karmelita says something about GMS but I might be tripping

I just think they all still referred to the Citadel as GMS because it was ultimately her power that killed them

[zinc pivot]

Like the case of unn got diminished because no one worshipped her

[edgy barn]

Karmelita mentions GMS too

[ember river]

Karmelita and the Skarrs suffered a lot from the Haunting, though, she did have a reason to complain about GMS

But Verdania for example fell during the Citadel

And they complain about the Citadel exclusively

Only the Shamans mention it was the system to keep Her asleep

[terse warren]

Well, Hornet says "You were caught beneath a being Pale... Devotion or destruction, those are the only fates my kind allows" so ehhh

[edgy barn]

Even in that story GMS gets the blame, Hornet says they were caught beneath a being pale and GP doesn't correct her

It's very consistent that GMS gets blamed in the stories of the old hearts

[ember river]

Yeah, her influence, not really her doing

[glossy badger]

Hornets dialogue to the snail shamans about verdania blames both gms and the citadel

[terse warren]

Plus, in the Memorium there are unique Coral enemies, I doubt they would've been able to have those if GMS had already messed up the place

[sinful nimbus]

Ignore this dialogue

Hornet is an idiot who has no idea what she's talking about

[ember river]

But Khann does mention opposing GMS, and since we don't find any Haunted coral soldier, or even mention the citadel, I'd reckon it was GMS alone who caused their fall

[terse warren]

I mean... Yeah, Wingsmould journal entry

[edgy barn]

GP doesn't correct her

[lethal burrow]

The poem at the beginning of the game has a citadel conductor openly acknowledging grand mother silk

[sinful nimbus]

"All pale beings are evil white colonists except for me 🥺 "

[ember river]

More like GP is a moron who thought the palestag was an actual god

[azure rivet]

then waht is?

[sinful nimbus]

(Only racist Pale Being we've seen btw)

[terse warren]

Tbf can you blame anyone for hating the Flies from the Slab

[glossy badger]

Hornet is a reliable narrator though

[ember river]

And then was presented with a true god who was just napping and his kingdom was wiped out to keep her asleep

[terse warren]

She's not

[sinful nimbus]

WHAT

[azure rivet]

yea ig tho then its most likely that the karaka js went dormant

[sinful nimbus]

Didn't know you were a eugenics apologist

[terse warren]

The world would be better without Flies that's just a fact

[ember river]

Slab flies must be removed to make way for the superior race
||The Savage Beastflies||

[edgy barn]

This whole thing kind of smells of poor storytelling to me. GMS gets the credit for the citadel's actions because she has no feats of her own that would make her imposing

[terse warren]

Still doesn't explain how the Memorium has coral animals not found in the wild

[ember river]

It's the most confusing aspect of the lore, the citadel timeline is kinda janky

[lethal burrow]

The classic "I interpreted it this way and I don't like it"

[sinful nimbus]

poor storytelling? in MY racist bug game? Its more likely than you think

[edgy barn]

Well what's your alternative?

[azure rivet]

hornet is an extreme racist

[lethal burrow]

I don't need an alternative That's not my prerogative.

[azure rivet]

honestly seeing what the flies did to her can't rlly blame her

[ember river]

They may have just scavenged the last remains to try and preserve them, they're said to breed them in hopes that they last, so I'd guess they couldn't really recreate their habitat either

[fossil ledge]

I mean, isn't the whole point of the entry about the giant coral crab thing that it was altered by the Citadel in an attempt to keep it alive? I'm assuming the reason being that its natural environment no longer existed

[sinful nimbus]

Zza is right its incredibly sloppy writing that you need to do a lot of mental gymnastics to interpret in any coherent way

[lethal burrow]

if you don't like the way you seasoned your food, I am under no obligation to find you a new meal

[terse warren]

The habitat is pretty different from what we see in Karak tho

[lethal burrow]

we are like 20 days after the release of the game. People are still figuring stuff out.

[sinful nimbus]

I've figured it out

[ember river]

Isn't it also different from the coral tower memory?

[lethal burrow]

does anybody here remember 20 days after hollow knight released? I guarantee people were saying similar things at the time.

[sinful nimbus]

"The game is new so we don't have to engage with ideas in any logical manner"

[ember river]

Just ignore starpengu, he's a troll

[sinful nimbus]

I'm a girl and I'm not trolling

[azure rivet]

r seth and the thread raker the same species? cbt hey look very similar

[scenic stirrup]

What the fuck do u mean silk song is a woke mess 😭😭😭

[ember river]

The thread raker looks nothing like seth

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong is the opposite of woke the main character advocates for eugenics and attempts genocide against slaves

[ember river]

The good thing about silksong is that depending on the phrasing a scene can be woke and anti woke

[zinc pivot]

Somebody throw this unprofessional rage baiter outta here

[terse warren]

I still highly doubt that from the 4 Old Hearts, the only one that instead of getting fucked up by the Citadel got fucked up by GMS is Khaan.

Why would they all have fallen around the same time except for Khaan??

[ember river]

You can say there's gay representation with the green princes but then again you do murder one while he's mourning and proudly display his severed heart

[azure rivet]

i think i forgot what seth looks like

ye ur right they ain't the same

[lethal burrow]

no no the game is woke because majority of the characters aren't male

[terse warren]

Caretaker solves the day and he's a guy

[fossil ledge]

What happened to this chat

[azure rivet]

aren't they siblings?

[terse warren]

No

[lethal burrow]

nope.

It appears to be able to be interpreted that way for some people, but it's by no means confirmed in any measure

[edgy barn]

third green prince incident incoming?

[azure rivet]

oh i thought tey were brothers

[terse warren]

😭

Did EVERYONE play their fight with their eyes closed

[zinc pivot]

It is said they were born apart

[ember river]

Well, the Green Prince looks pretty young in comparison, and the Hunter's March hasn't even collapsed that much, also the citadel seemed to actually worship and help Nyleth?
Meanwhile the coral tower is visually rickety old and dry, with the husks inside being more like stone than actual bugs.

[zinc pivot]

I swear reading comprehension is shite for many

[scenic stirrup]

If she was shed killed the broodling

[edgy barn]

tbf it was kind of easy

[scenic stirrup]

But she didnt

[ember river]

What broodling

[azure rivet]

u mean the current coral tower right? not the dream version? can we even go in the coral tower outside of the dream:?

[sinful nimbus]

You guys have to understand its an elden ring reference or something

[ember river]

Yes, the remnants of the coral tower

[lethal burrow]

We can go to the bottom floor of the tower

[azure rivet]

interesting

i never tried bc am stoobid

[terse warren]

Elden Ring actually has colorful areas

[fossil ledge]

Have you returned to the Broodmother arena?

[scenic stirrup]

If u go back to the place where u killed the brood mother there is a new brood mother

[ember river]

No

[scenic stirrup]

But shes small

[ember river]

Oh, and Hornet doesn't kill them?

[scenic stirrup]

So theyre fattening her up first 💀

[azure rivet]

wth

[terse warren]

Hornet enjoys repeated killings of Broodmother

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet not killing the minibroodmother is an exception

[azure rivet]

since when did silksong enter 40k territory

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't feel any sympathy for literally any of the other slave children

[ember river]

?

[sinful nimbus]

And in fact hopes they all die out

[azure rivet]

did they keep slaves in hallownest?

[ember river]

Yes

[azure rivet]

hornet*

[terse warren]

Uh?

[azure rivet]

she's probably used to that then

[sinful nimbus]

No

[ember river]

Oh in hallownest, not really but it's implied in silksong that there may have been

[scenic stirrup]

Ppl really got offended by two gay insects breh

[azure rivet]

oh bruh

[ember river]

It's in one of the underworker entries

[scenic stirrup]

💀

[edgy barn]

You have to admit that Hornet's journal entry for the baby judges gives sort o weird vibes

[azure rivet]

isn't every1 practically a slave tot he silk, except any powerful bugs

[terse warren]

The Flies are literally forced to be prison wardens from birth

[scenic stirrup]

Basically every underworker and ppl of the slab theyre all practically slaves

[fossil ledge]

It is implied they did. The Maggots were forced to do menial labour

[azure rivet]

trust sherma is the biggest threat in the entire game

how does one make a maggot operate anything

its a maggot

[ember river]

I mean hallwonest, there are implications in silksong that hallownest may have had slaves

[scenic stirrup]

My cope is that hornet thinks that she wants all the flies dead bc their whole life is basically suffering

[fossil ledge]

Hallownest, not Pharloom

[scenic stirrup]

They were made to be slave and workers and shit in the slab

[azure rivet]

nah hornest is js pure villainy

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't imply slavery it implies maggots are an underclass

[azure rivet]

oh so she's probably used to slaves and doesn't give

[ember river]

She does kill dozens of newborns and their mother and admits she felt no regret

[sinful nimbus]

Pharloom has like literal institutionalized slavery

[azure rivet]

forced labour...slavery

[azure rivet]

huh when is this

[ember river]

Broodmother fight

[zinc pivot]

So
Flukemarm 2.0

[sinful nimbus]

Wow that's also horrific

[ember river]

The broodmother shoots newborns at you

[scenic stirrup]

I feel like she didnt kill the broodling cuz she was sentient somewhat and wasnt affected by the haunting

[fossil ledge]

I mean, being forced to do menial labour is the definition of slavery. It might have been indentured servitude or whatever, but those are semantics

[azure rivet]

i think that ain't hornet's fault at that point

[azure rivet]

oh hell nah

[sinful nimbus]

"Why don't black people stop breeding because they are subjected to suffering via racism"

Thanks Hornet really nuanced take there

[ember river]

They are still newborns

[azure rivet]

sounds like alexander matheson

[terse warren]

The metaphor is effective but maybe we avoid delving into real life stuff for a bug game please

[sinful nimbus]

"Forced" can also mean compelled by neccessity. The maggots were an underclass who could only get jobs involving menial labor

[lethal burrow]

I imagine her dislike of the flys has nothing to do with anything other than their station.

At a certain point, you're responsible for your own actions and I doubt it would've mattered if the wardens of the slab were made up of a diverse set of bugs

[ember river]

By the way this game is shortened to SS for a reason, don't be surprised that Hornet hated at least one race

[azure rivet]

tru but hornet is a war criminal so she probably didn't think too hard abt that(wait no not war criminal js a violator of the geneva convention)

[sinful nimbus]

Eugenics is bad is a frigid cold take here I'd assume

[ember river]

And if you uh, want woke, then this game is very ACAB since it hates prison guards

See? You can market silksong to EVERYONE

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet is actually evil they character assassinated her

[terse warren]

Star you know that's not what I meant 😭

[azure rivet]

except bums who cry abt it and quit bc they don't embrace the grind

[terse warren]

They did that when they made her dumb

[scenic stirrup]

Do u think hornet is pro monarchy

[fossil ledge]

They seemed to have been very unhappy, though. That said, we only ever see three in the whole game, so it's hard to really debate it further as we only have a single line to go off of

[azure rivet]

i have ancient elden ring and souls trauma but i remember nearly nothing

[azure rivet]

yea

[sinful nimbus]

Well yeah they were clearly discriminated against but slavery isn't really implied

Its still bad but its not as bad

[fossil ledge]

I wouldn't quite say the possibility of slavery is ruled out, but it isn't outright confirmed either

[azure rivet]

hornet would've defended the pale king or herrah with her life most likely

[ember river]

It's fine, you can murder innocent maggots in Hollow Knight for no reason too

[edgy barn]

That entry is weird because it implies maggots are being currently employed despite Hallownest no longer being a functioning society

[terse warren]

Have you literally not played Silksong or

[ember river]

Hornet did consider the Pale King a fool

[terse warren]

Hornet is the Number 1 PK slanderer and Number 1 Herrah defender

[fossil ledge]

This is true, the entry is written in present tense. That is odd

[azure rivet]

wait not pale king mb

the other white one, tree lady white tree lady wtb

[scenic stirrup]

Red memory was so sad chat

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet proudly proclaiming herself a daughter of Hallownest 1 hour after calling her father an idiot for not doing something that he did do:

[terse warren]

The Chad Pale King who could control Void

The virgin Hornet who thinks "Only a fool could think they can control the Void!1!!1"

[scenic stirrup]

She couldnt remember what her mom looked like

[ember river]

White Lady

[whole holly]

hornet is anarcho-communist, she was trained by hive which are communist, and she hates monarchs and without monarchy you get anarchy( other stuff like republics and democracy isn't really in game )

[azure rivet]

ye her

[ember river]

The Pale King failed because he couldn't actually do that though

[lethal burrow]

what political alignment is greyroot

[edgy barn]

Everybody talks about Hornet but nobody mentions how the Knight kills False Knight's siblings for no reason.

[terse warren]

The Wingsmoulds and Kingsmoulds work perfectly

It wasn't about control for PV, it was about PK not understanding Void inherently, but he did control it

[ember river]

He claims to be a liberal but nobody really knows what he was doing 80 years ago

[scenic stirrup]

I read somewhere that greyroot isnt really alive cuz u when needolin her she isnt really saying anything

[sinful nimbus]

And in this context she's talking about the constructs

[whole holly]

parasitism would be capitalism i guess, so capitalist

[sinful nimbus]

Vessels didn't work but that doesn't mean the moulds didn't

[azure rivet]

the moulds were much simpler tho no?

[lethal burrow]

he?

[ember river]

I mean, yeah, he could make constructs that ran on soul and void, but I wouldn't call that "controlling the void". I always assumed she was refering to the vessels

[sinful nimbus]

They are void fashioned into doing his bidding, which is what Hornet describes

[fossil ledge]

I always interpreted this as Hornet not being able to discern it, considering she also doesn't understand what the Skarr merchant says. That said, he does have dialogue, even if Hornet can't understand it

[azure rivet]

the vessels r living beings right?

[ember river]

It, she, I don't care it's a damn nazi root

[terse warren]

Clearly Hornet is spreading false info about PK's mastery of Void so that if she loses her Journal and someone finds it, they won't attempt anything with it

[lethal burrow]

Are you the person who was adamant about that journal entry being weird for some reason when everyone else was normal and you were losing your mind?

[azure rivet]

waht is this deep ahh thinking my head hurts

[terse warren]

Even then he "controlled" the Vessels well

The only reason they failed is because he was too good of a dad

[sinful nimbus]

Bro is incapable with engaging with arguments that he disagrees with

[ember river]

No? They failed because they couldn't contain the Radiance forever

[azure rivet]

big e take notes

should've swapped the emperor of mankind and pale king around

[zinc pivot]

Hard to say really, they have a mind and an identity, but their shell is forever stunted

[sinful nimbus]

They're undead

[terse warren]

And that is because. They weren't hollow. Because of the idea instilled into them.

[azure rivet]

ye, but js from thar way more complex than the moulds right>?

[zinc pivot]

I assume its because the shell is constantly emitting light to force the void from breaking out

[terse warren]

???

[fathom palm]

White Lady refers to Birthplace as where they were born and where they died

[ember river]

Vessels still have will and mind either way

[sinful nimbus]

Nah

[ember river]

Steel Soul Jinn is surprised that the Knight can make a choice and the Void Heart requires a will

[sinful nimbus]

Read the dialogue WL says THK was always impure

[lethal burrow]

never mind, I was thinking of star

[lethal burrow]

You remember that conversation, right?

[sinful nimbus]

[zinc pivot]

Yeah considering they can still physically grow

[terse warren]

Okay even then it wasn't that PK failed at controlling them, it was the Void itself that wasn't actually hollow

[whole holly]

Hollow Knight's shell wasn't stunted so how? i read that HK was artifically grown but still, it implies being stunted is conditional

[sinful nimbus]

Yes I remember you refusing to engage with the argument and instead calling me delusional like 10 times

[azure rivet]

do we get any sizeable lore on the steel place that jinn and iji and sharpe come from?

[ember river]

The void is hollow, it just consumes, but Vessels are more than just a pile of void

[ember river]

Moulds still can grow, Collector is a bit larger than Kingsmoulds IIRC

[terse warren]

I respect Star's lore knowledge more than I do that of half this entire channel combined so she was probably right

[scenic stirrup]

Maybe we dont play as the knight in the first game but we play as the pale king!? Aint no way

[zinc pivot]

Im talking about the shell side of thing

[scenic stirrup]

And thats just a theory a game-

[zinc pivot]

Not the void inside

[terse warren]

Except that it has a nature, and it "chooses" the Void Tendrils as a form, so....

But I do suppose the "choosing a form" thing is from Skong

[sinful nimbus]

Raw void was able to converse with the bug in the lighthouse

But yeah vessels are more than just void

[terse warren]

Ty star always coming to the rescue when I don't know shit

[ember river]

I don't think "choose" is there as someone who chooses what clothes to wear. Think more of the way normal things see the void manifested and understand its intent

[azure rivet]

js wondering where magnus the strong is from? the spirit glade giant that looks like he might come from the ancient coral kingdom

and garro for that matter

[fossil ledge]

We don't know this for sure. What we do know is that the void influenced its mind

[azure rivet]

some1 mentioned him earlier

[terse warren]

He's just a Backer character don't think too hard about it

[sinful nimbus]

[sinful nimbus]

The dreamnail text implies a dialogue

[fossil ledge]

But this could have been hallucinated by the bug

[ember river]

I'm not sure if it was an actual conversation, but the void did influence him

[lethal burrow]

ant queen and coral King are both backer characters too

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't seem like the implication

[azure rivet]

both look so similar armorwise tho, and both seem to hv the warrior mindset of the coral order that protected the karak kingdom b4 its fall

[zinc pivot]

Considering void is formed by regret
I guess the void influences the darker side of the lighthouse watcher mind, makes him feel abandoned and alone and wish for release of death

[ember river]

Could be, though Xero looks much more like one of those coral soldiers than the spirit glade ones

[terse warren]

1. Karmelita isn't a backer technically

2. Those are bosses, which are probably given a lot more depth than 1 time ghosts

[ember river]

Void isn't formed by regret what are you talking about

[scenic stirrup]

Do u think hornet ate some moorwing in fleetopia

[lethal burrow]

OK, the second one is fair but also what do you mean about the first one?

[scenic stirrup]

😭

[sinful nimbus]

Broke: Elder Hu is from Shakra's clan
Woke: Magnus and Garro are karakian

[pulsar mauve]

I do now lol

[azure rivet]

i'd say garro looks more similar tho him and xero seem to be of a similar species. perhaps they were members of another race from karak that disappeared when the old kingdom was destroyed

[zinc pivot]

Jiji said it about shades

[azure rivet]

wonder if we'll everr find out where perpetos noo is from

[ember river]

To assume void came from someone's regret from that specific line is a pretty wild jump

[zinc pivot]

And we know that shade is void after the secret steel soul boss

So not a jump

A concrete fact

[azure rivet]

bruh

[fossil ledge]

Although the possibility exists the void in some form conversed with the lighthouse bug, it's also possible it merely influenced the mind of the bug into hallucinating a narrative that would get it to turn off the lighthouse. It reminded me quite a bit of Lovecraftian elements

[scenic stirrup]

Who tf killed moorwing when they moved to greymoor nobody looks like a warrior except that warrior flea that you only get in bilewater which is really far 💀

[sinful nimbus]

OK actually looking at the characters it doesn't seem like they are too similar but

[ember river]

No, to assume the actual primal force of void came from someone's regret is still an extreme jump

[pulsar mauve]

I don't think that was supposed to imply Void is made from regrets - it's just summoning your Shade. the "regret" could be dying somewhere you couldn't get back to, not anything to do with Void specifically

[lethal burrow]

If you don't kill them, they're actually just eating roach instead

[sinful nimbus]

That still demonstrates an intellect

[fossil ledge]

It demonstrates a will, at the very least, and the ability to influence the minds of bugs

I suppose you could consider this a form of intelligence

[azure rivet]

r there any spirits in the glade that r from the old pre hallow nest and pre moths civilisation?

that worshipped void

[zinc pivot]

Or it works like nietzsches abyss

[sinful nimbus]

The spirits glade is a graveyard made by moths so no

[lethal burrow]

what if the mind that currently inhabits the void is like the minds of the ancient civilization people who went into it?

[azure rivet]

well r there any bugs mentioned by name then?

[ember river]

If it was an actual conversation then there may be an intellect behind it
Otherwise I'd say there's an inherent influence over bugs, but not necessarily a consciousness behind it

[azure rivet]

interesting theory

[terse warren]

Im pretty sure that the person that made Karmelita isn't a Kickstarter Backer but still someone that got a boss in the game I don't remember why tho

The 3 backer bosses are God Tamer, Khaan and Sharpe

[sinful nimbus]

No names but the guy holding up the shade cloak bowl and the ancient nailsmith near quickslash are presumed to be AC members

[azure rivet]

ye most likely

[ember river]

Aren't dream bosses backer rewards?

[sinful nimbus]

Its influencing a bug into doing what it wants

[azure rivet]

but what does the void want? to consume all?

[terse warren]

Im referring to real bosses only not dream warriors

[lethal burrow]

sharpe

[sinful nimbus]

For the bug to shut down the lighthouse

[lethal burrow]

I wonder how that backer feels about having to wait another four years.

[sinful nimbus]

Void seems to just have a tendency to rest

[azure rivet]

chill guy

[terse warren]

Maybe Sharpe is DLC

[ember river]

Well, the abyss has been described as some crushing emptiness at some point, I think in some of HK's Hunter's Journal, perhaps it was that which altered that bug's mind

[sinful nimbus]

You wouldn't like it if I made a lighthouse in your bedroom either

[ember river]

I'm not an all-consuming darkness though

[sinful nimbus]

❓

[azure rivet]

maybe steel soul mode annoying goober who jumps outta nowhere to harass u in the middle of big fights

[ember river]

Again, an inherent influence over bugs, not a sentient one at that

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not seeing the logic - It also takes more assumptions than the void merely conversing with the bug through mind magic or whatever

[azure rivet]

void is still a bit confusing

[ember river]

Well, there's the fact that we haven't seen any sort of sentience of the void other than the voidheart, much less mind magic

[fathom palm]

I find it hard to believe Void intelligently influenced the lighthouse bug, since there's at least one dream nail dialogue that says Void is power without unity

[sinful nimbus]

Except the lighthouse bug's dreamnail dialogue clearly implies that

[fathom palm]

it just is until the Knight unites it

[ember river]

That's the bug with the fountain who also calls you lord of shades after

[fossil ledge]

Shade Beast

[sinful nimbus]

You're assuming the conversation was actually imaginary and not done by a sentient actor for no reason

[ember river]

Which was it again

[fossil ledge]

Turn it off?.. I can't. I'm sorry my King, the sea calls...

[sinful nimbus]

"...Turn it off?... Cannot...

My King. I'm sorry... The sea calls..."

[zinc pivot]

I feel like void represent a darkness of the mind too
With its depiction as primal and its association with negative feelings like regret

To serve as the antithesis of an elevating force that is all that is pale

[fossil ledge]

We unfortunately don't have many examples of the effects the void had on bugs in Hollow Knight, mostly the Love key bug and the lighthouse bug

[zinc pivot]

Whereas Pale things will bring sentience and capacity for complex thoughts void is more animalistic, more wanting

[terse warren]

Void telephone magic...

[fossil ledge]

Silksong isn't as great an example because it's also GMS' thread that is affecting it

[ember river]

Void being able to consciously speak to bugs would open another whole can of worms

[azure rivet]

void seems less ambitious and js wants to eat stuff

[ember river]

It probably just killed them

[fossil ledge]

It may not necessarily be conscious, but more an influence of the mind that manifests in a way the bug understands, like a conversation

[ember river]

Yeah that's what I think

[zinc pivot]

Which is a more primal desire than anything pale beings offer a bugs mind

[ember river]

I could just say higher beings only want to be worshipped and giving sentience is the way they are

[sinful nimbus]

Meh

[azure rivet]

it js doesn't seem to fight that hard to eat stuff

[ember river]

There's not necessarily a correlation

[sinful nimbus]

Void is already noted to not have a unified will which indicates it had an ununified will prior to void heart

[azure rivet]

doesn't seem to actively pursue anything(void) unless given some kinda focus like the knight

[sinful nimbus]

So its not that weird

[proud drum]

Did zote die in the lore bro where's did he go

[fossil ledge]

It's actively repelled by light and actively seeks out soul

[scenic stirrup]

The last judge fight is so fucking cool the more i think abt it

[zinc pivot]

Im trying to put a meta into the discussion of what void represents in HKverse

Other than just emptiness given form

[ember river]

IT was noted not to have unity, period. And the voidheart mentions giving it unity through the bearer's will.
Technically the void does have a "will" to consume, if you can call it that, and it lashes out at soul, but I think it's much more of a natural force than a living, or somewhat living form

[cobalt coyote]

evil black goo

[ember river]

You brought nietzsche to explain the bug game petrol

[cold solstice]

Hk lore or silksong lore?

[ember river]

Void lore which is both

[sinful nimbus]

The unity is from having a single will which implies it did not have just one will prior to unification

[ember river]

I took it as putting a will in control of what would otherwise just be a primal force

[zinc pivot]

I believe it still has thematic significance, though of course not full on philosophical or political

[lethal burrow]

Mr. mushroom snapped his neck

[ember river]

Imagine if a single person was able to control how gravity works with their will, that wouldn't give gravity a distributed will before

[lethal burrow]

This is just magnets

[ember river]

Zote became the King of Hallownest after the Knight left to the Void

[sinful nimbus]

Well no one is out here saying gravity is ununified

That's nonsense

[proud drum]

So hornet got sent to an entirely different place out of hallownest reach much far is my theory that's why zote isn't seen

[sinful nimbus]

Void being ununified in the context of lacking a singular will implies that its conscious was fractured/scattered/whatever you want to call it beforehand

Not that it merely lacked a will

And it demonstrates that it does have one on some capacity

[ember river]

Thing is they never say Void has a disjointed will or anything like that, they call it power without unity, and the Void Heart does say "Unified under the Bearer's Will", which again doesn't reference any fractured will at all

[sinful nimbus]

This is like calling water power without unity like... what?

[ember river]

There's "will" in the sense that it does lash out at life and soul, and normally consume beings, but I don't think it is conscious

[ember river]

?

Water can't kill gods, it can't erase things from existence

[terse warren]

So how did it tell the guy to turn off the lighthouse

[sinful nimbus]

What would a lack of unity mean in the context of a will mean if it not that it had no singular will prior

If it was some sort of unthinking force like water it wouldn't be described like that

[zinc pivot]

To be honest if you extract all the deuterium and tritium in water a thermonuclear weapon can be devised

[ember river]

Again, depends on what you consider a will, if you make it akin to a mind, to a thought, I disagree

[zinc pivot]

Which is well, water with unity

[lethal burrow]

who's teat is the halfway home's nectar from?

[sinful nimbus]

That is what the term is used for yeah

Its also what the void demonstrates itself to have with the Lighthouse bug fiasco

[terse warren]

1. We don't know that because we haven't seen any God come into contact with water 2. Erosion

[ember river]

Then no, I don't think the void is capable of conscious thought unless commanded by someone able to control it
It does certainly have some sort of inherent drive, and if that's what you call will then I guess we're arguing semantics

[sinful nimbus]

Things incapable of conscious thought generally do not converse with living beings

[zinc pivot]

Which is why i believe void doesnt converse, it influences

[ember river]

I still think that's just the influence of the place that's felt by other bugs according to various other sources. It wasn't an actual conversation but a propagation of that drive

[sinful nimbus]

Unnecessary assumption

[ember river]

Same as yours

[sinful nimbus]

No

[fossil ledge]

It's described as aphid nectar, so presumably from the gaster of aphids

[sinful nimbus]

Its not an assumption to say that the void is conversing with the lighthouse bug when... that's what we read

[ember river]

We read a bug, alone, struggling with its own thoughts

[sinful nimbus]

No

[zinc pivot]

Actually, i might find a perfect analogy to what void is
The quantum sea

[sinful nimbus]

That bug says that the sea is calling out to it and that's presumably what they are responding to in the opening question

"Turn it off? Cannot"

[ember river]

With more esoteric tales, i.e lovecraft these eldritch influences inherently alter someone's mind, even without any intent, that's what I believe is going on

[sinful nimbus]

Why

[ember river]

Because that's a theme that seems to fit the void's portrayal

[sinful nimbus]

This isn't hinted at its just your assumption meant to justify your headcanon

[edgy barn]

I see at you mean but the way the line is written seems to imply someone was talking to the bug

[ember river]

Same as yours, the void is never implied to have any sort of mind or conscious thought

[sinful nimbus]

Yes it is

[ember river]

Where is it EVER mentioned to be conscious or anything close

[sinful nimbus]

Unconcious forces do not converse with people

[lethal burrow]

guys this seems like a conversation for just straight up #hk-lore

[ember river]

Which goes both ways, you part from the assumption that it was a conversation, I part from the assumption that void is not conscious

[sinful nimbus]

Its not an assumption that it was a conversation

[terse warren]

Void is present in both games and it's not like this is interrupting any Convo anyways

[sinful nimbus]

Responding to another person means its a conversation
....thats how talking works

[lethal burrow]

it's clearly supposed to be implied that the void had some effect on the lighthouse keeper.

If the intention from the developers was to depict that the bug only went mad, it was a shitty job

[ember river]

And hallucinations

[pliant meadow]

For no reason in particular, have you finished silksong by any chance...?

[sinful nimbus]

There is no implication that its a hallucination

You might as well say that of every dreamnail dialogue from a corpse

[ember river]

Yes the void had an effect, the debate is if it was some esoteric influence or an actual conversation

With words spoken by the void

[terse warren]

I think it's pretty inequivocable that the Void straight up said "Turn it off."

[sinful nimbus]

Conversation is implied "esoteric influence" is not

[lethal burrow]

yes but nobody here is talking about the third act or any void stuff there, this is a debate about the lighthouse keeper of all things 😭

[ember river]

The void as a concept is esoteric

[pliant meadow]

Oh I thought it was just about the void in general, nvm

[sinful nimbus]

This isn't an invitation to make stuff up however

[ember river]

There are also mentions of the void's influence in the abyss, even without touching it

[lethal burrow]

The void is Estroteric

[sinful nimbus]

We have an evidence piece that we can conclude void is sentient from

You are starting with the conclusion that void is NOT sentient, and are making unnecessary assumptions to handwave away counterevidence.

[zinc pivot]

Void is gendered

[sinful nimbus]

That's not how evidence should work, you should start with evidence and draw conclusions from it not vice versa

[ember river]

Know what? I just remembered there's more supporting evidence in favor of the void having some sort of sentience than it not having, mainly it getting worshipped as a Higher Being and both Pale King and Radiance adressing it directly, which I hadn't taken into account
Guess I'm wrong

[zinc pivot]

Let’s sum up the factual evidence about void in game so we can draw a conclusion

[ember river]

I would keep arguing if it was only about the dreamnail conversation in the abyss though

[sinful nimbus]

🗣️

I think I should invent a time machine and kill the person who first suggested void wipes out gender or whatever

waitwaitwiatwait

[peak harbor]

whueh?

Huh

[sinful nimbus]

This is why Garmond is referred to with "They" because they got voided and therefore lost their gender

It all makes sense

[zinc pivot]

What the hell

Void sterilized people

[peak harbor]

wait i’m sorry i was going to say something but i saw those words in that order and my mind had to do the organic version of a computer reboot

[glossy badger]

Garmond is he/they

[regal crow]

What’s the deal with the not-bird on ||mount fay?||

[scenic stirrup]

Apparently its a higher being thats friendly with the weavers

That they used to sing for it

[ember river]

That's another explanation, yeah

[lethal burrow]

People be saying everything is a higher being nowadays

[ember river]

Thanks for the in-depth theory

[scenic stirrup]

Is zote a higher being

[ember river]

To be fair the void itself does have some sort of natural drive or impulse to attack and consume life

[scenic stirrup]

Are all wyrms pale ?

[ember river]

Zote is a Higher Being so strong that its influence led a common bug to cause another split in the dream realm, and he created ANOTHER higher being, Grey Prince Zote, that is stronger than the Radiance and the Nightmare Heart

[ember river]

Apparently not? The Pale King is refered to as the "White Wyrm" or "Pale Wyrm" in various occasions, which seems to imply that there are non-pale wyrms

[scenic stirrup]

Would be cool if we fought grimm again. I imagine the grimm raised by the knight would be nutty

[glossy badger]

Fayforn is seemingly able to control the wind but I wouldn't call it a higher being

[ember river]

I think their strength doesn't increase that much

[ember river]

I'd put fayforn on a similar leage as Bardoon. Old, mysterious and knowledgeable but not a higher being

[glossy badger]

Yeah

We all know nuu is a higher being tho

[scenic stirrup]

Yea but the new grimm was raised by the knight

[ember river]

Nuu is Unn backwards and swapping a letter

[scenic stirrup]

💀💀💀

[fossil ledge]

Yeah, I accidentally type in Nuu when meaning to say Unn earlier today lol

[zinc pivot]

With how Wyrm is mentioned as a whole side of hornet, i think Wyrm capitalized are all pale

[fossil ledge]

That's when I realized how similar the names are, and how both are snail/slug like creatures

[spring escarp]

If I kill every void mass on Silksong will something happen?

[glossy badger]

What if the knight gave baby grimm to zote

[zinc pivot]

There are of course non capitalized wyrm like blackwyrm

And knockoffs like voltvyrm

[ember river]

Yeah, that's what I think, it's more of a natural occurence than something you can decide or is done consciously

[scenic stirrup]

Whats that other wyrm again in og hollow knight

[zinc pivot]

Blackwyrm

[ember river]

There's a "battle of the blackwyrm" mentioned in an Ogrim dreamnail

But how much that means the existence of a Black Wyrm is debatable

That's what I said but I got lashed out at

[zinc pivot]

Blackwyrm not capitalized Black Wyrm

[ember river]

If it was an actual wyrm they'd be synonymous, that's why I made the distinction

[zinc pivot]

Fair

[timid forge]

was anyone else worried the pinmaster would make you kill him? I was so sad, said my goodbyes and all, and then nothing happened. lol the PTSD hit hard

[tacit lake]

he looks like hes good on life so he wouldnt make us kill him prob

[timid forge]

yeah ig so, but i didnt really think the nailmaster in hk was doing that bad

[zinc pivot]

Nailsmith you mean

[tacit lake]

he didnt have anything else to do in life so he js asked the knight to kill him

[dapper willow]

What is thr limit of a bug's power
How far can they rise before they fall

[zinc pivot]

Yeah and meanwhile pinmaster got a fellow master to mourn and a place to call home

[zinc pivot]

Average bug or pale kins

[dapper willow]

Both really

[spring escarp]

Did anyone get this ending?

[zinc pivot]

You ate too much mossberry stew pal, stop tripping

[spring escarp]

Just cause I dipped in the cauldron to see what happened...

[tacit lake]

this was our silksong after all

[dapper willow]

Insane

I love making baseless and blatantly wrong claims with 0 hint of evidence
What do you mean its unproductive

[ember river]

Yeah, I try to do that, but I forgot about the siblings entirely

[ember river]

It's a postcredit scene for Steel Heart if you complete it in under 24h

So 100% with steel soul on in under 24h

[whole holly]

hey is there tool other than polyp pouch that affects Plasmium Vial?

[cedar skiff]

whats up with those ranodom metal pipes

are these in the actual arena

[dapper willow]

The 5 great knigts were pretty strong too

[dapper willow]

Nope

[cedar skiff]

did i get mandela effect-ed for something that i saw 2 weeks ago Am i going insane

[spark valve]

It’s an edit of the announcement trailer

[dapper willow]

Citadel HVAC system
Best on the market with the cheapest prices

[cedar skiff]

someone went through the effort to add not just the elephant in the room in the middle of the image but a detailed bg.. wow!

[pliant meadow]

Crazy how stuff like this is still going around after it's been confirmed that lace is a child

[dapper willow]

The shippers will ignore such inconvenient details

[raw nebula]

isn't lace like a billion years old

[cedar skiff]

still a child by design

[spark valve]

Lace is a child in body and mind

[cedar skiff]

the caretaker explains it so well in one dialogue string and people still misinterpret it somehow

like yeah, child in body and mind, but has been around for a while. gms made her to be that way because shes cray

[nova patio]

hornet is a nepo baby if you think about it

[ember river]

Hornet is indeed a nepo baby

Not as much as Pure Vessel but up there

[nova patio]

pure vessel had a difficult job tho

hornet's job was to defend the ruined kingdom against small 0 threat bugs

[sinful nimbus]

How Hornet even managed that when the Citadel's caste was able to beat her is a mystery

[nova patio]

Truth bomb....

[cedar skiff]

the citadel bugs pulled up like right after the hk ending of choice

[ember river]

They sent a "Full Chamber", which I'd assume is around the size of a regiment

[sinful nimbus]

Meh

You'd expect a trained demigod with extreme magical prowess to be more powerful

[sacred heath]

they likely just threw bodies into the meat grinder until she was weakened enough to stuff in the cage

casualties are not something the Citadel is concerned with

[sinful nimbus]

If that was TK they were going after they wouldn't have stood a chance even with 100 bugs 🥱

[thin flame]

Either I'm bad at the game, or Lace decided to smear grease all over the walls in Sands of Karak

[nova patio]

Hornet lost every fight in Hallownest we've seen the moment she's up against bugs who somewhat have minds of their own #justsaying

[ember river]

She killed at least a vessel

[sacred heath]

hornet is nerfed by the plot

[ember river]

But yeah Hornet wasn't even that strong in the first game to begin with

[sinful nimbus]

She seemed pretty strong

[nova patio]

Oh yeah true

[sinful nimbus]

I guess her needle just can't penetrate the plot armor of the citadel

[ember river]

She goes down rather quickly against the knight if you compare her to some later bosses

Though to be fair most of them are gods or dreams

[sinful nimbus]

Its also a gameplay thing

Bosses are going to ramp up their health the longer the game goes on

[ember river]

She doesn't hit hard either, nor is she particularly hard to dodge

[sinful nimbus]

Those are also going to ramp up as the game goes on

Difficulty is gameplay and also subjective

[dapper willow]

I don't think I would wanna fight post pharloom hornet as the knight though

[sinful nimbus]

Realistically whats Hornet going to do after I ddark through all her cogfly spam

[limpid summit]

Nah, it’d win

Shaman spells >> Weaver ones

[dapper willow]

you can't ddark her cheese

[sinful nimbus]

The spells are also void

Hornet's got the baby loser spells

[dapper willow]

volt vessel grenades + spike traps are pretty dangerous for the knight's moveset

[limpid summit]

I wonder if she could transform shaman spells into silk infused ones with a catalyst

[sinful nimbus]

TK gets free iframes every 3 seconds

[dapper willow]

hornet gets free iframes every 1.5 seconds

[sinful nimbus]

ss doesn;t really have anything like shade cloak afaik

[dapper willow]

clawline is op enough

[spark valve]

Powerscaling characters who fight multiple times in canon and one always wins is certainly something

TK beats hornet when they both use minimal gear, and when they both use mid game gear

[limpid summit]

Every form of TK beats every form of Hornet (at equal stages)

[spark valve]

Probably beats her when they’re both using full kit too

[limpid summit]

No VH TK would beat full kit Hornet mid diff

But LoS negs Weaver Queen

[dapper willow]

Hornet in silksong grows stronger than ever before

[spark valve]

I have to throw something at you

[modern hollow]

This still makes me wonder what a full Vespa fight could have been

[spark valve]

The knight also grows stronger after ke

[modern hollow]

Considering she did train hornet

[sinful nimbus]

Lame, probably

[dapper willow]

yes but we are talking about the knight before he grows stronger

[modern hollow]

I wouldn't say that yet

We barely know of her abilities other than training the hive knight and hornet

[sinful nimbus]

Parasitized Weaver Queen vs Parasitized LOS

[limpid summit]

Hornet definitely eclipses her old strength at the end of Silksong but Hornet Sentinel is essentially her going all out

[spark valve]

Los could not get the parasite presumably

[sinful nimbus]

True true

[dapper willow]

she gets a huge gear upgrade for starters

[modern hollow]

Should have spammed cogflies smh

[sinful nimbus]

looks inside and its just dash and double jump 💔

[modern hollow]

I jest

[spark valve]

The knight beats her consistently at multiple stages of both of their developments and continues to get stronger after the second fight

Hornet can get stronger too, doesn’t mean she gets stronger than the knight and it’s pretty silly to assume

[dapper willow]

If hornet was trying as protector it wouldn't be a fun game now would it

[spark valve]

The knight also fights way stronger shit

[sinful nimbus]

TK could beat GMS and wouldn't go evil 🥱

Tk would also be buddies with the flies

[spark valve]

It would just stab her to death unceremoniously and then get on with its day

[modern hollow]

Anybody could beat gms

To be honest

[toxic quest]

zote could beat gms ngl

[sinful nimbus]

TK and Ellina are the only ones who aren't xenophobic in the HK universe apparently

[pliant meadow]

Well we don't know about silksong dlc

[spark valve]

Star the people aren’t ready to accept how racist hornet is

[modern hollow]

Thats only against the slab enemies

[dapper willow]

Current knight still has hornet beat because of the whole void thing
She would need to gear up pretty hard for that fight to be fair

[sinful nimbus]

They couldn't accept elderbug either and I still fought the good fight

[sinful nimbus]

She's only racist against the slaves 💔

[limpid summit]

Hornet in HK: “We do not choose our mothers, or the circumstance into which we are born.“

Hornet in SS:
“Disgusting both in manner and stench. I feel no remorse to see them felled.”
“The smell from these jailers overwhelms my senses. I strongly doubt they have ever thought to bathe.”
“The less these gruesome bugs breed, the better.” (??????)

[dapper willow]

Could hornet beat spiderman?

[modern hollow]

To be fair they stole her entire kit as well as punish pilgrims who are deemed "sinful" or unfit for the underworks etc

[spark valve]

You forgot ‘born into servitude, I have no sympathy for these creatures’ plight’ or whatever

[spark valve]

You can avoid getting slabbed so no that’s not why

[modern hollow]

Like they were created by broodmother explicitly for that purpose

[spark valve]

Broodmother is also a slave

[modern hollow]

You can still see how the slab affected the other pilgrims

[modern hollow]

Well in the words of that one guy she's that bird that I hate

[sinful nimbus]

The mini broodmother being used just for breeding actually icked me out

[sinful nimbus]

That's not their fault they're just following orders

[spark valve]

It’s almost like the flies are also victims of a bad system

And Hornet doesn’t care they’re gross so they should all just die

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet just thinks eugenics is awesome

[limpid summit]

Hornet did not fucking care 😭

[dapper willow]

She wouldn't be a noble if she didn't hate the lower classes now eh?

[modern hollow]

I wouldn't say the police of pharloom are lower class

[toxic quest]

💀

[dapper willow]

I actually feel bad for the poor flies

[limpid summit]

Hunter doesn’t even hate the Flukes this much

[dapper willow]

they are like middle class
This is getting too real

[modern hollow]

Well I mean the game isn't exactly subtle about its messaging.

[spark valve]

The slab bugs??? They’re fucking slaves what

[sinful nimbus]

In light of them making the good guy a raging racist i wouldn't be surprised if there is no messaging 😭

[toxic quest]

yeah silksong has quite blatant social commentary

[limpid summit]

I remain a daughter of hallownest

[dapper willow]

I think the hierarchy is something like pilgrims -> underworkers -> slabflyes -> elevated pilgrims -> regular choir -> vaultkeepers, architects and the high hall nobles -> Conductors -> lace? -> Grandma

[modern hollow]

Pretty sure the citadel pilgrims are the choir right

[fading whale]

where do the doctors fit in

[spark valve]

The slab flies are slaves generationally enslaved because of an old sin

[toxic quest]

grandma silk isnt in the social hierarchy

[ember river]

Yes

[fading whale]

yeah they dont even know her

[dapper willow]

I think the choir officials are above the pilgrims who made it to the citadel

[ember river]

Neither is lace

[ember river]

They are pilgrims too

Where did you think they come from

[sacred heath]

hornet believes in acab

[dapper willow]

yes but they are treated marginally better than the others who are down there
Death is a sin after all, and those who die down there are more undeserving
Also they have to like pass the judges too who judge the pilgrins of their sin, and some of them pass, some don't, so there is a separation there too
IDk though, you guys can come up with a list of hierarchy too

[ember river]

What?

Who is treated marginally better?

[limpid summit]

The judges were meant to stop sinful pilgrims were entering

Pre haunting they probably would have just said get out though

[ember river]

I mean choir bugs are the pilgrims who reach the citadel

[ember river]

Nah, they outright killed them if they were sinful

[dapper willow]

not all of them
I don't think so anyway

[brisk finch]

I suspect any "useful" Pilgrim was let in
Just not into the Citadel proper

[ember river]

Proof?

[brisk finch]

They were much wanted bodies, not people

[ember river]

I mean, most bugs in the choir are the normal pilgrim enemies we find, the underworkers are the ones that seem different

And reeds I guess

[toxic quest]

imo the hierarchy is:

pilgrims > slabflies > underworkers > judges > choir > doctors > architects/vaultkeepers > nobility/conductors > weavers when they were around

[brisk finch]

Mostly, but at least one of the sweeper dudes is clearly the prayer beads guy
So it's not fully separated

[dapper willow]

Vibes
I figure the citadel has to have a stable population aside from the incoming pilgrims. The palce is huge
Besides that we never saw any "reed like" pilgrims so they gotta come from somewhere too

[brisk finch]

There is still overlap
+it may have been, uh. Not racialized, but Pilgrims with certain traits may have all been shuttled into underworks early on
And there's just much less of them these days

[modern hollow]

I think about that one non flying pilgrim in the lava area underneath the cauldron

How did he get down there what does he do scrub the magma?

[ember river]

Maybe they separated them into classes depending on if they were considered sinners or in their physical strength "This is the holy task you've been given"

[dapper willow]

this makes some sense too, although I think the flyes are above the underworkers as well

[ember river]

That one pilgrim journal from an underworker does show them still believers

[brisk finch]

I definitely think that "sinner" is a completely made up concept
Especially since a lot of the underworks guys appear to think they were chosen

One guy wonders if it's a secret punishment
So they clearly weren't judged guilty

[dapper willow]

thats some very unfortunate place to die at

[ember river]

I think they used Sinner as a stand-in for criminal, kinda like military divisions are "chambers", or the soldiers are choristors and reeds

They have their own lingo

[viscid ridge]

Ive always wondered why exactly forge daugter looked so weird to me, cause she has these little wings on top of her bell that doesn't really fit with the other bugs of pharlooms armour. But now that i think about it, forge daugter might be the same as the Snitchbugs, cause they also have that weird wing antennas on top of their heads

[brisk finch]

Right, sinner is a criminal term, not a Judged Unworthy term

There are no sinners outside of the slab, seemingly

[rancid violet]

Isn't it a fairly simple class system, the underworkers are the working class. Poor in rosaries and as a result everything is more expensive

[brisk finch]

Yes, but the question is how they separated people who seemingly mostly got in through the same entrance with similar backgrounds

[modern hollow]

Vibes

[ember river]

Yeah but they all arrive from the same place so we must figure out what leads to you getting in the choir or in the underworks

[viscid ridge]

And she talks about herself in the third person whuch grindle also does?

[toxic quest]

magnetite dice

[ember river]

Underworkers are clearly faithful and they are exploited

[fossil ledge]

Well, there's a confessional booth that is programmed to say that whatever is confessed is a grave sin that must be worked off

[viscid ridge]

Good, i fucking hate them, except for the guys with sponges, their tight

[modern hollow]

"Conductor my tummy hurt"

"You've committed a cardinal sin"

[dapper willow]

I think they just bullshitted their way through it based on their needs
If they didn't need more bugs in the underworks the excess was sent to the choir

[sinful nimbus]

It also says not to eat or drink 😭

[ember river]

I doubt an underworker would ever speak to a conductor unless it was him giving a speech

[fossil ledge]

Pretty much. Hornet says nothing and the automaton replies the same thing anyway

[brisk finch]

This seems likely to me, tbh

[rancid violet]

I think it's just that the poorest were sent down bellow

[modern hollow]

Well whoever runs the confessional

[brisk finch]

The entire system was "fake" top to bottom, with convenience of the comductors at the top

[fossil ledge]

The interesting thing is that if you go the other way around and break it, the ruined sentence is now more accurate to what the Citadel actually means

[ember river]

According to the journal the vaultkeepers ran the faith

[toxic quest]

What does it say?

[ember river]

Then Architects ran the machines and Conductors ran the state

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, we even walk through what looks like a church serman hall when we first enter the vaults

[fossil ledge]

"Speak... ... confession..." "..." "You... ... sin... ... cleanse...." "Return... ... work... ... begins...." "... Pharloom... ... never... ... forgiven."

[ember river]

Yep

[spark valve]

The vault keepers are record keepers they don’t really run shit

[dapper willow]

the whole memorium area could be a fourht faction of the citadel but it isnt

[fair zealot]

i noticed that the other day it's pretty cool

[ember river]

Check the journal

Also their leader is literally called the Pontiff

[toxic quest]

isnt it just a zoo

[fair zealot]

if you control the history then you're definitely in charge

[ember river]

Why would the living museum be a faction

[dapper willow]

it is yes
But it has a whole map of itself and its fairly big so it could have been a fourth faction

[spark valve]

It’s a theocracy the one managing the vault keepers is still a religious figure

[dapper willow]

a sub faction of the vaultkeepers maybe

[ember river]

It'd make more sense for the Whiteward to be

[dapper willow]

that too but that isn't either
it is what it is

[fossil ledge]

I mean, the museum is run by the choir

[ember river]

Again, check the journal entry for the normal keepers

[rancid violet]

Memorium is basically a living museum, like how the London museum is full of artifacts from conquered nations

[fossil ledge]

The keepers we see their are Choir members

[ember river]

They were akin to priests

[spark valve]

They read the scrolls

The scrolls have the prayers

[modern hollow]

Except in the case of verdania its destined to forget

[spark valve]

So they lead prayers, they aren’t actually in charge

[ember river]

The extended journal entry fucks sakes

[spark valve]

I read it

[viscid ridge]

I doubt itz i think there is a lot more little buildings in the citidel that has the same importance as the memorium, but we never get to see them. But i also really like the memorium, but i dont think their jobs are important enough

[ember river]

They get a melody all of their own, which does imply they are pretty fucking relevant

[fossil ledge]

Conductors are confirmed to be the leaders of the Citadel

[ember river]

And they are very priest coded

[spark valve]

Who said they weren’t relevant you’re shadowboxing

[ember river]

The highest authority, yes

[fair zealot]

again. regardless of their position. if you are in charge of all the texts in the kingdom. and the people of pharloom are this gullible. you are definitely very very powerful

[modern hollow]

So they control the media of the pilgrims per se

[dapper willow]

Choir clappers are so weird
Their armor scheme seems more like the vaultkeepers, but they only show up in the forum which is in the high halls

[viscid ridge]

Cause the conducters are essentially the citidels government, the architects keep the city running, and the vaultkeepers keep the history alive, aswell as the bugs faith

[fossil ledge]

All three factions are very powerful, and one could argue had a joint leadership

[fair zealot]

exactly yes

[spark valve]

Conductors are very much in charge

[ember river]

The conductors were the actual heads of the state but they still depended on architects and keepers following their designs

[viscid ridge]

To be fair the vault keepers armour also looks very similar to the judges, but their like a whole map apart so

[spark valve]

Yeah no shit leaders can’t lead without people to follow orders

[fossil ledge]

Don't the giant Reeds also have bronze armour bits?

[ember river]

Those two are not normal choir bugs

They have more important tasks

[spark valve]

Nobody said they were

[modern hollow]

Considering the fact we never see a proper leader really then its argued that a mixed oligarchy and theocracy is what runs pharloom

[spark valve]

They do different jobs

[brisk finch]

Reminder that the Conductors took over from the Weavers, who may as well have been considered divine entities in that era

They did so greedily as the Weavers fled, but I doubt that was shared

[ember river]

Why are you so insistent on vaultkeepers not being the ministers of the faith despite most evidence pointing towards that being the case

[spark valve]

Making things up

[dapper willow]

maybe the conductors had like a council like the jedi

[regal crow]

Any relation between ||relic seeker and vault keeper||

[spark valve]

They’re the keepers of the actual prayers and shit that’s what’s on the scrolls

[ember river]

So then they ran the faith

[fair zealot]

they do seem to be similar species

[dapper willow]

same species
I guess they are just obsessed with the past

[spark valve]

Not the same

[fossil ledge]

There's a forum in the High Halls, which suggests they certainly discussed things amongst themselves

[fair zealot]

it's pharloom the faith is the government 😭

[viscid ridge]

We do see a couple of conductors tho, but they both seemed to have illnesses. The conducter in HH also says the role of conducter is a heavy burden, so i wonder what it was that caused the conductors to be in such awful states when we see them.

[ember river]

The conductors probably had a council between conductors, and then they discussed that with architects or whoever they had to delegate to

[dapper willow]

high halls could have been bigger
it was an interesting area and I would have liked to see more about the "leaders" of pharloom

[spark valve]

The vault keepers managed some rituals but the conductors commanded the faith as a whole

[modern hollow]

Considering a conductor is the main part of the unraveled it could be partly the haunting