FINALE: The Mandalorian S3E08: "Chapter 24" Discussion Thread

[safe junco]

The FINALE!

[native pilot]

@ Wilde

WHO'S READY TO SEE IF THIS SHOW CRASHES AND BURNS TOMORROW ‼️ ‼️
Funny you should say that...

I loved the visuals, but is it just me or were the flying infantry and single combat parts of the battle entirely irrelevant?

It felt a little like Return of the Jedi, where the final duel is fun to look at, but the station would have blown up either way.

[calm silo]

Well, at least in Return of the Jedi, the final duel and Emperor confrontation was important to Luke's personal journey, and served to distract ol' Palpatine so he didn't escape the explosion.

The Mando finale was okay, I guess. The plot points wrapped up, and some of the action scenes were good. However, some of it felt pretty hollow and didn't have the emotional weight it needed.

Out of the 3 seasons, this was the weakest finale I think.

Probably needed to be a longer episode.

[river plover]

hollow action seems to be a staple of this series

[sly timber]

dear gods, no

the length isn't the problem, it's what's in there

I'm not going to go through point by point on how massively stupid so much of what happened was, and how much it relied on characters being incompetent.

But the dialogue, man. It's so rough. Just declarative statement after declarative statement, as if this was a 1960s superhero comic.

[river plover]

gonna see how bad this really is when the gf gets back from work

im open to the finale pulling back the entire season in a cinematic masterpiece moment but my hopes are not high

man im glad im not the only one thats found this series disappointing though, i thought maybe i was just being jaded

[sly timber]

I've seen a bunch of comments to the effect of, this show is best when you don't listen to people on twitter/reddit/etc and just turn off your brain

Which I find immensely telling LOL

[calm silo]

I really enjoyed seasons 1 and 2 of The Mandalorian. It was a relatively simple show and that was a good thing.

But Season 3 has been all over the place in terms of focus, characterization, and story details.

It tried to be more complex and grand in scale, but a lot of it didn't quite stick the landing.

[sly timber]

The show used to be good about showing character through action. Now it's just awkward staging and editing.

[river plover]

i feel like it started going downhill pretty early into season 2

[calm silo]

Season 2 suffered a bit by being backdoor pilots to other shows and things they were setting up, but at least everything had a purpose for being there. It was all in service of Din (or is his given name Djarin? Lol) and Grogu.

But from Book of Boba Fett onwards, it's been rough going.

Season 3 is the first time where I really feel like the overall writing and plot structure really let the show down in a lot of places, and it's unfortunate.

[sterile forge]

THIS MAN IS PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE OF MISSING

[sly timber]

So, how many days did Pedro Pascal work this season? One? Two?

We never see his face this season, right? It's all just dialogue laid over other performers' acting.

[limpid jay]

The main plot of this show really only needed 4 episodes:

1. Din goes to Mandalore

2. Bo Katan unites the Mandalorians

3. Bo Katan finishes uniting the Mandalorians and then goes to Mandalore

4. A finale

Half of the show was filler

I know they needed some of the recurring characters to feature, but they could have made there more mandalorian factions, or more of a build up to Moff Gideon being alive

I still don't think he's dead though. We didn't see a body, and he survived the first 2 seasons

[floral idol]

Well Gideon has 'died' before, reportedly by execution for war crimes by the NR. Who's to say he wasn't already successful making clones of himself?

[river plover]

[sterile forge]

"No one's ever really gone"

"... Ever"

[sly timber]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FuFdWS4XwAIKtBX?format=png&name=small

[past ore]

I loved the zoom in on Grogu at the end

That was awesome

I loved the ending

A little disappointed there was no post credits

But I feel like this didn't need it in the end

Looking back on the episode, it was very much an ending, and there's no need to tease the future when we have something that feels very much like a finale

Plus, we got all our teases at Celebration

[sly timber]

militarized extremists yelling "For [name of homeland]" was far more creepy than I think the makers intended LOL

[autumn aurora]

I guess the darksaber was the big death in the finale we were wating for.

On paper it did what it needed to do, but Gideon needed a little something more to make his death more satisfying. I think some of this episode's plot developments might have been better spread out.

It's a decent result to have his death be from Mandalorians working together rather than Din or Bo-Katan soloing him, but the setup for that felt a little thin.

I'm curious about the name, too, most Mandalorians use last name surnames, so if Din is the surname that must come from his original culture before being adopted and the Armorer was aware of that? It's probably just because it flows better than Grogu Djarin, but it raises an interesting if unimportant question.

[floral idol]

Nah, the answer is simple really. The Children of the Watch are all Bajorans. That's why they never take off their helmets.

[native pilot]

It could be a patronym rather than a surname.

[sly timber]

Was there any tightening or significant change to the bond between Mando and the kid depicted in this season? I honestly can't recall any foundation for this adoption this season.

[autumn aurora]

He started trusting him more in dangerous situations.

Which, for a Mandalorian is probably what passes for bonding.

He's not exactly an emotionally developed dad.

[sly timber]

Maybe, but a bit of a leap to go from that to adoption.

[native pilot]

Also, it certainly says something about a culture that they have a specific "don't make something an child soldier apprentice before they're able to speak" rule.

[autumn aurora]

It was framed partially as an excuse to let him count as an apprentice without being able to take the creed. I think based more on the existing bond from previous seasons. I agree it would have been more meaningful with more development.

[sly timber]

You're becoming more capable to act independently, so I'm going to adopt you?

it's payoff without setup, again

[autumn aurora]

Doesn't feel out of place so much as just less impactful because not much of the development of the relationship was recent.

[sly timber]

like the cabin

like anything about Gideon

all those things could have been wonderful, powerful moments, but they lacked almost any sort of build-up

[autumn aurora]

More like he got around to doing it under those circumstances.

Bo-Katan had been calling him Grogu's dad already.

[native pilot]

I would imagine the adoption should have happened at the start of the season/end of BoBF when Grogu returned to Din (returned to Djarin?) and they were together for good, but at that point Din was in no state of mind to actually do it because of the whole atonement quest.

[autumn aurora]

Another reason Grogu's return should have been late in this season instead of before it.

[sly timber]

and the thing about the name should have been handled earlier, so that viewers don't get distracted by that instead of letting the emotional beats of the scene work

So, next season Bo will go to some Jedi to get the edgesaber repaired?

Or do you think it's supposed to be out of the picture

[native pilot]

I hope for the latter. "The symbol of Mandalore is its people" seems like a decent insight.

To be honest, I hope the series ends here. It's a good ending (for certain values of "good") and I'm ready for new stories.

[sly timber]

plenty of ways a show could have examined how having a sword as symbol around which to rally might lead a society down a shitty path...

[autumn aurora]

It feels more like a split, where the Mandalore story can continue elsewhere but we'll get maybe a more "back to basics" season 4 of Din and Grogu hunting down Imperial Remnant types for the New Republic.

Which could be good for the show, I think.

[sly timber]

I wouldn't mind the show focusing more again.

[slow quarry]

Gideon really should have ripped his helmet off him during the fight

[sly timber]

The soldiers escorting him didn't even take away Mando's knife LOL

[autumn aurora]

I thought he took the knife from one of them?

I'd have to check again.

[sly timber]

possible!

But considering how wide open the Imps left the base, I'm not predisposed towards assuming any level of competence for them, you know.

[autumn aurora]

But leaving a Mando all armored up like that is questionable.

Bound to be some stuff built in.

I guess he was out of whistling birds.

[sly timber]

in some novel or other I once read about a guy being held in a hospital, and the narration noted how psychologically effective it was to stick someone in one of those gowns with the back open

feels so vulnerable, even if it's not any more dangerous than regular clothes, in most circumstances

Mando not getting his stuff removed made me think of that

[slow quarry]

Agreed. The helmet really should have come off when he was captured, just as a power move if nothing else

[native pilot]

I think he didn't use those at all during the season.

[autumn aurora]

And then you could address whether he feels the need to be redeemed again after gaining more respect for Bo-Katan and other non-CotW Mandos.

Yeah no whistling birds this season

though that's fine, using them too often is boring.

[slow quarry]

I also think it would have been more satisfying if Din had executed each clone instead of just purging them like that

[autumn aurora]

Nah, way too dark for the general tone of the show. And drawn out.

[sly timber]

It's wild how parts of the show look so absurdly expensive (all the vehicle scenes, flying, etc) but then you get to the characters and the lackluster action feels like a Sci-Fi Channel show form the 90s

[naive blade]

They took the launcher off in the episode prior

[slow quarry]

Then have Grogu step in to stop it

[sly timber]

Nah, Mando only cares abstractly about Gideon anyway, there would have been as little to this as to what was actually on screen

[autumn aurora]

And they're not him, they're in-vat clones who haven't done anything yet, it would be weird.

purging them to stop bad things from happening makes sense, but there's no vengeance to take or anything.

[naive blade]

One thing I think would’ve made the finale better would have been a scene with the Children of the Watch clan with the Armorer, Din, and the rest paying tribute to Paz Vizsla’s sacrifice. I mean they finished the creed for his son in the living waters so why not spend 30 seconds having a funeral pyre or something?

[sly timber]

So, does this scene imply that killing baby clones in tanks en masse (as it happened on Kamino during TCW) is okay?

[slow quarry]

They burned the entire base as his pyre

[naive blade]

Indeed I remembered that as I hit send lol

[sly timber]

How long did the trio stay there in Grogu's bubble anyway

[autumn aurora]

I think the context is everything here.

[sly timber]

yeah, I'm only joking here, but it's a parallel that jumped out at me

[slow quarry]

Killing is killing

[autumn aurora]

Though they made them full grown in the vat to make it easier to stomach I'm sure, although also a more imminent threat.

[sly timber]

sure, but why and how is where SW usually draws the line

[sly timber]

I mean, it's a few naked pensioners

[autumn aurora]

A little tribute to Paz would have been nice, yeah.

[slow quarry]

All the baby clones from the bad batch were killed by the e mpire

[sly timber]

Hm? I was talking about TCW

Not Bad Batch

[slow quarry]

when did they butcher baby clones during TCW?

[sly timber]

The seppies attack Kamino and destroy a bunch of the tank stacks

I think the episode is called Arc Troopers

Always possible I'm misremembering, of course. Haven't double checked.

[slow quarry]

The seppies are just imperial stand ins, so massmurdering children remains on brand

[sly timber]

oh yeah, just had a look, them towers are falling

It IS kinda funny that Mando does something so Separatist-y LOL

considering the flashback to his childhood

early in the series

[slow quarry]

Nah, purging the clones of your enemy before the boss fight is real old school

[sly timber]

I'd be surprised if that never happened in a video game

[calm silo]

I'm also surprised we actually don't get Ragnar learning about his dad's death and his reaction to it. He's just taking the Creed again at the end like everything's normal.

[slow quarry]

Pretty certain Luke did it in Dark Empire

[calm silo]

A lot of moments in this season were like that. Things just happened but didn't seem to take previous events into account.

[autumn aurora]

Yeah, there are a lot of little things they could have done fairly quickly that would have helped with impact.

[sly timber]

Well, normal for them LOL

[sly timber]

a shot of a funeral pyre for the fallen dad, cut to the kid's helmet as he looks on (which lets us imagine his feelings), and then cut to the baptism

it would have taken seconds, maybe

[calm silo]

Something like that.

[sly timber]

like, I'm not trying to say "the show should have done what I want" here with all of this

but what it did do, it didn't do well

so the mind wanders, you know

[slow quarry]

I'm pretty certain Paz wasn't the only mando who bought the farm this ep

[autumn aurora]

Yeah there's potentially different ways to do it, but I think the "should" can stand on paying off the emotional setups. Not a single specific way it had to happen.

[calm silo]

I just really wish a lot of the events in the show had more weight. I'm sure Favreau wanted these things to hit the audience in a certain way, but there's payoff without any proper buildup or events just happening.

A lot of it could've been done with a few small scenes here and there throughout the episodes.

Overall, I just wish the season had better focus on what it wanted to do.

[sly timber]

I'm not even sure all of these weak punches are unintentional. Maybe they've gotten it into their heads that the show being a kids' adventure means it can't go too hard on the emotions?

[autumn aurora]

The Cartoons go harder, though.

[slow quarry]

This 👆

[calm silo]

Some episodes of TCW, Rebels, and Bad Batch are brutal on the emotions.

The original trilogy had some emotional moments as well.

The prequels ended in complete tragedy.

Star Wars is a franchise that should strive to hit emotional beats. That's what gives weight to everything.

[autumn aurora]

I'm sure that upcoming Young Jedi Adventures will be softer, but that's clearly aimed at a very young crowd.

[sly timber]

Oh for sure. I'm not saying it's a good idea on their part.

Just the impression I'm getting

[calm silo]

Doesn't even have to be flawlessly written either. Just somewhat competent with some nice emotional payoff.

[sly timber]

It can't all be the TCW finale or Andor, but Mando has been pretty emotionally flat this season.

[slow quarry]

When Gideon rages about the clones getting ganked, I didn't really feel his outrage.

Delivery was flat

[autumn aurora]

Which is weird because it's not like the actor can't deliver.

[calm silo]

That's down to directing really.

[slow quarry]

Yup

[autumn aurora]

I think part of the problem is that most of the setup for what could have been the emotional beats of the finale was in previous seasons rather than this one. But also direction.

[echo reef]

Alright.

This episode kinda sucked.

The action was good. At least on the Din end of things. I loved seeing him move around and have to use weapons other than his own to survive. That was it tho.

Grogu who was with the other mandos show up out of no where.

What does the title mean? The return to the planet they're already on?

R5 shows up with no establishment.

Axe apparently has enough fuel to fly to space (but the rest can't chase a giant bird-bat before running out of fuel)

The greenery scene was short lived and pointless.

Gideon is a total comic book villain now, and feels, well, just like insane vibes to me rather than other seasons where he was calculated and cunning.

They had been teasing about this episode pulling our heart strings for a week now, and I don't think a singular mandalorian person died this episode, not even a background character.

I think the darksaber was wasted. So much more could be done with it, but instead it's destroyed so we can get an "ape strong together" scene.

I thought Din already adopted Grogu. He legit says he's his ward in ep 4.

The entire finale was just a let down in most areas and anticlimactic in others.

[slow quarry]

I mean, the fact he has Din dragged away is because he wants payback for the end of season 2. It's obvious. But it wouldn't have killed them to put in a couple of lines

[sly timber]

and writing

him just saying he's outraged is just so booooooring, even a great actor will struggle to draw anything out of that kind of script

[calm silo]

I do wish the show was more upfront with the plot around Moff Gideon, they really stretched out the cloning plot for 3 seasons. And in the end all that "buildup" and mystery fell flat.

[calm silo]

Even then, that could still work if he was in a fit of pure rage. That was his life's goal. Gone.

[echo reef]

Also, I gotta say, I don't think Gideon, at least in prior seasons, is the type of guy to want to be the inferior version of himself.

Making a clone of himself who's better would (in his mind) make him less significant

So the whole clone thing seems weird to me

[autumn aurora]

I'd guess they were going to be modified for obedience like the OG clones.

So he gets to be the big man in charge of the better soldiers.

[sly timber]

maybe, but I don't recall any implication of that from the episode

[echo reef]

Which we haven't really seen work long term in canon

[echo reef]

To be fair, it's not like their's any subtlety this ep

[autumn aurora]

Yeah, well they get destroyed before that comes into play. Of the things I wish they spent time explaining that's at the bottom of the list.

[sly timber]

nah, he talks about how he's making his own imp mandos in the previous ep, and in this ep he exposits about the clones

the show spent time having him describe his clones

it's not unmentioned due to timing

[autumn aurora]

Due to being irrelevant, though.

I don't know, there's few enough maybe he sees them taking over and running most of what the Shadow council is doing together as a "council of Gideons" kind of thing, but I think it's more likely he'd have had a plan for being the one in control.

[slow quarry]

One wonders if he was planning some form of technological body hop if that's the case. However, given their seeming physical age and probable gestation, I'd say we're looking at a 3 times aging factor at least, so sure they'd be Force users, but the candle that burns twice as bright burns for half as long and all that

[sly timber]

relevant enough that it left people wondering here

it's the naming scheme all over LOL

[echo reef]

The cloning plot line with Grogu culminated with that tank bursting scene. Done and over that quickly.

That is until season 4 when he's in a cloned body because they want their main villain played by an A-list actor back

[autumn aurora]

There's always something to wonder about, this isn't really an issue in my mind.

It doesn't effect the payoff like a bunch of other things do.

[sly timber]

I just don't see any foundation in the show for assuming the clones would be bred for obedience

maybe they were, maybe they weren't

but the show chooses not to tell us that they were, when it could have

so it's a bit of a leap to assume it, IMO

[autumn aurora]

Nothing other than who Gideon is. But I don't think there's even a right answer for it.

In the writing room they were always going to be destroyed before implemented.

[slow quarry]

What should be noted was that he had clones on Nevarro as well as the base on mandalore. There's no reason he couldn't have another offsite facility allowing for the character to return

[sly timber]

the eternal return

[wintry geyser]

At least the MacGuffin lightsaber is gone.

[calm silo]

I do have to give props to the production design and VFX artists. The show continues to look pretty good for the most part.

[sly timber]

yeah that side is like 99% excellent

between this show and the Trek shows, we've gotten some hilariously expensive sci-fi visuals these past years

[native pilot]

true

[calm silo]

Darksaber was kinda wasted a bit, I feel. Could've done more with exploring how the Mandalorians feel about it, and maybe having them come to the realization that they don't need it.

The only reason it became a symbol of leadership is because House Vizsla stole it from the Jedi Temple after Tarre Vizsla died a thousand years ago. It was all performative, and I doubt Tarre Vizsla would want his lightaaber used as a tool to exert control over others.

[sly timber]

hey you don't know, maybe he was one of the shittier Jedi

would be funny if the great Mando culture hero was a little shit who gets revered for his origin more than who he was

[calm silo]

Of course the Darksaber's past was explained a tad in Book of Boba Fett. But the bulk of it came from Rebels, abd Rebels handled it and the topic of Mabdalorian leadership struggle a bit better.

[calm silo]

LMAO maybe.

[sly timber]

ancient heroes turning out to be grifters and fools is far more interesting than legends being true

because at that point you have to decide whether you embrace the lie or live according to the truth, and that reveals character

if everyone was as they are remembered by the people in the setting, you have no ambiguity, no decision points

[echo reef]

My overall rating for the season.

3/8

Ep 1 was an unnecessary repeat of already known info bc of BOBF, and the IG plot was started and put on hold for about 6 episodes (and only to make them not have Din carry around Grogu in a fight) Same for the pirates, who will get resolved in 4 more episodes
Ep 2 was better, and explored not only Mandalore, but Din's and Bo's backgrounds as Mandalorians (and was great set up for both Din to leave his super religious cult, and for Bo to maybe stop being so materialistic and be a more spiritual leader. Wasted.)
Ep 3 I didn't mind too much at first, tho Disney seems to have a problem now with making shows about people other than the titular characters. But now with hindsight, the only thing this ep did was establish that agent lady is there, and Pershing is, well we don't know yet. He could be dead, in rehab, idk. He never comes back.
Ep 4 was ok. It was pointless filler, but showed us abit of Mando culture (for the cult at least) and Grogu's past.
Ep 5 was cool action, with a loooong set up, kinda longer than it needed to be for the first few minutes. And the pirate plot line is resolved like that. The cult gets a home for 2 episodes, and the episode leaves on a cliffhanger, that is now just abit underwhelming as well since it was just stronger stormtroopers, and leads into....
Ep 6 Total. Pointless. Filler. The episode starts with Mandalorian stuff, from another group so one can hope to see them in play, or the Gideon beskar stuff get worked on. Nope, just droid detective stuff. You can skip from the first time they get into the tram, to the second, cutting out that entire plot line, and the episode is no worse for it.
Ep 7 was better. It took its time to establish stuff and just let people talk. The monster was random, but that was my only complaint.
Ep 8. I'm running out of letters. It was just a bad climax of everything from this season. No real payoff other than a big boom and a "dead" Gideon. (who showed up in ep 7)

[calm silo]

Possibly, but it is also interesting when the messages or true beliefs of an ancient hero can be twisted and corrupted over time to become something else by people who just want their own power. Those that don't really care about their history unless they can twist it to their own gain.

[sly timber]

yeah, like in Life of Brian

🙂

[calm silo]

Haha

Well, now there's Jedi Survivor next week, Visions on the May 4th, and Ahsoka in August. So hopefully, I'll like them a bit more than Mando Season 3.

[autumn aurora]

I think Jedi Survivor has the greatest capacity to disappoint me because I also think it's the least likely to.

Visions is likely to both hit and miss, which is fine.

Ahsoka looks good but would be easy to build up specific expectations for, trying not to dig too deep and give it space to be whatever it is.

[river plover]

wait where did grogu bot come from

also is axe literally just jetpacking into space from the ground

how do you get that much thrust

[calm silo]

Ahsoka is make or break for me as far as shows go. I like Ahsoka as a character, and I like Rebels. So I hope Filoni can really combine his ideas he's had over the years into a satisfying live action show.

If he can get this show right, then that might mean his eventually movie has the potential to be good as well.

[sly timber]

for the past couple months, every single time I've seen my nephew (and I see him several times a week), he was excitedly asking about Survivor

if that game is shit, I will burn the world down

[calm silo]

I really want to see what Filoni can do when he's helming and writing his own show, without George around to help (although apparently he still talks to and gives notes to Filoni), and without the extensive group writing and pre-planning of an animated series.

[sly timber]

obviously that takes much less fuel then cruising along the surface after a bird

I mean come on

[autumn aurora]

Depends on how far around the surface you went.

[river plover]

i mean i guess that works out yeah

chasing after a bird flying a big distance = many kilometers

[sly timber]

less than a dino bird's area of operations

[river plover]

going straight up = no kilometers

[calm silo]

I actually think the ships were in upper atmosphere and not space.

[sly timber]

nah there were fiery explosions during the battle, that means they were in space

[calm silo]

LOL

[river plover]

damn son if only they trained their mando super commando stormtroopers as well as they trained these pilots

[sly timber]

remember when the biker Imps crashed their speeders as they launched from their base, in what was it, season 2?

[river plover]

yes lol

didnt even make it 5 meters

mando is showing his inner london here and literally cannot stop stealing knives

[sly timber]

knives are for when you mean business, guns are just to pose

oh, did he take the knife he used against the two troopers who escorted him from one of them? or was it his own?

[river plover]

he took it

[sly timber]

I was unclear on that

[river plover]

from a trooper

[sly timber]

okay that's slightly less stupid

but still - leaving him in armor LOL

[river plover]

it was very blink and miss it so i kept a close eye because of what i read here

its hard to tell, their legs are rightn ext to one another

damn i might feel some tension for mando yelling at r5 to open the shield faster if he wasnt covered in bulletproof armour fighting one single guy hes been shown to be capable of killing dozens of at once

[sly timber]

had they removed the armor, or at least parts of it, that sequence would have played so much better

but that would have involved Pascal being on set LOL

[river plover]

yeah lmao thats what i was thinking

f o r c e c l o n e s

why does every physically superior villain do this

why do they always have an unbreakable choke hold on the hero that WILL kill them if they just hold it

and then they throw them away

EVERY villain does this

lmao bo using her tiny buckler to hold back the fireball

[past ore]

Because it's a pulp action trope and star wars is a pulp action adventure?

[river plover]

but that answers nothing

holy shit they turned ig-11 into robocop

[past ore]

Star Wars is all about playing into established tropes of the genre dating back to the republic serials

[river plover]

well that ended rather suddenly

how did so much and so little happen at the same time

[sly timber]

Where did that fucking crowd of citizens come from when Greef and Mando talk LOL

They just appear between cuts like the monsters in a horror movie

[river plover]

mando died on mandalore and the ending is his dying delusions

[sly timber]

A grip strong enough to break PURE BESKAR

the saber was made from the same unfuckable stuff as mando armor

[sly timber]

You have ten seconds to drop your gun, citizen

[untold sandal]

I was about to be disappointed with the lack of giant dinosaurs this episode

[sly timber]

That reminds me, what the hell are Mando's pants made out of

He takes a rocket to the ass and there's an explosion and everything and then his clothes aren't even singed

Same with Bo

[untold sandal]

And then ten seconds later a rocket blows up at least two storm troopers in the jet pack battle

[native pilot]

Are we sure Gideon's "Beskar" isn't actually spray-painted aluminum?

[native pilot]

Yes. So much this.

[untold sandal]

Found it

[limpid jay]

Everyone keeps getting flamethrowered but it only affects stormtroopers

[sly timber]

Yuuuuup, noticed that too

[autumn aurora]

Those troopers did tank a lot more than most mooks do, but still less than the good guys in theoretically similar armor.

[native pilot]

Is it even theoretically similar? I was under the impression that most Mandalorian armor isn't Beskar because they no longer have access to it.

[slow quarry]

Well she was more instinctively shielding the child than anything was I think the point of that. Character development moment.

[slow quarry]

Where was that established?

[river plover]

wookieepedia says that book of boba fett established that the darksaber is beskar

[slow quarry]

Nomex at a guess, same as his cloak. He's immersed in a flamethrower for several seconds and doesn't even get singed or smouldet.

One thing you notice is that mando armour is full of micro circuitry. Maybe it generates a slight shielding effect on top of any properties of the material it's made from.

But they also made a big point of recycling and mando armour they come across in their journeys, and that would be on top of any beskar armour passed down from before the purge

[calm silo]

Amazing how flamethrowers don't catch any cloth on fire.

[native pilot]

If you and all your best friends had flamethrowers, you'd probably invest in some flame-retardant clothing too.

[slow quarry]

It may be a deliberate upgrade, because I'm sure I remember him losing his cloak to the flame throwers in season 1

[calm silo]

Then technically, if you have flame retardant clothing, that clothing would also be blaster-resistant to a degree.

At that point, might as well switch to metal bullets. Pull out the slugthrowers.

[slow quarry]

Flames don't go through metal the way blasters do. The retardant properties are going to be meaningless against blaster bolts

[sly timber]

Yes, that's exactly how people who deliberately expose their children to the dangers of wild animals think.

[native pilot]

I've heard that good protective gear is kind of the Mandalorian shtick.

[sly timber]

honored more in the breach

[green nexus]

did not hate it

setting up for more classic Rick and Morty Adventures

kinda funny though that this whole time Din was his family name

[floral idol]

Din is taking Cara Dune's job as "Marshall of the New Republic"

[green nexus]

they had a show concept so palatable that they wrapped up the Mandalore arc in one and a half seasons

now we hopefully get back to that Season 1 goodness

season-long plots clearly not being the showrunners' strong point

ultimately Season 3 gets a Mid out of 10.

ohhhh they should give Season 4 a subtitle

like "The Mandalorian: Marshall of the New Republic"

or something

[sly timber]

Whatever they title it, it will end up being about someone or something else in large parts.

[green nexus]

ugh

[autumn aurora]

That's not inherently a problem, it's just a question of how well it's done.

[sly timber]

Yeah. Andor doesnt have to focus exclusively on Andor. But Book of Fett being the Grogu and Luke and Ahsoka show for two eps is how it shouldn't be done.

[wintry nebula]

Wait is Gideon trying to make himself a force boy

Lmaooo

Please

[wintry nebula]

yeah that was a good finale

good as fuck, I might even say

they should end the show right there, that last shot was damn near perfect

next season should be about Mando building himself a nicer house on Nevarro

[untold sandal]

Sounds like season 4 might just be Ashoka 1.5

[plush ibex]

I do love them crushing the Dark Saber. Historically fighting over that thing has brought nothing but endless grief to Mandolorian society, so breaking tradition and the value of that item is gold.

[sly timber]

Yeah but the villain crushed it

It wasn't a choice by the heroes to embrace modernity

[slow quarry]

Running him thru with it and booting him and the sword into the inferno would have been more satisfying, but I guess having the weeb destroy the thing he lusted after and then deciding that ironically he did you a favour has its own value?

[plush ibex]

That is very true. I think if I was looking for deep and insightful characterisation; I was really watching the wrong show. XD

I just get the feeling that they wanted to wrap things up this season Incase they couldn’t go forward.

[limpid jay]

Or making him win against Bo-Katan, but when he announced that he was the new Mandalore, then Din and the rest join in in defeating him.

And destroying the saber while they were at it

This episode is good, but it definitely feels like they didn't think it through

[river plover]

if season 4 doesnt open like this, i give up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5VJnxDLaZY

[rustic dragon]

I wondered the same since S1 tbh. I didn't hate it though, it sure felt better than S2/S3, but it felt that it still lacked a little something to keep my interest

Still watching it but the most important thing i'll remember from this episode is the fundamental technical detail that mandalorian fabric and clothing is totally fireproof

Mandalorians are weak without their trinkets. Noo, they're stronger together!!!

Ah, I wondered when they would finally talk about the power of friendship

Axe Owes is like that lonesome party player that finally finds a shiny new toy and decides to blow up everything even though the rest of the party is still fighting in the dungeon

Those helmets look like toys

[river plover]

yeah the kid mando helmet very much reminds me of those clone trooper mask toys

with the comically oversized visors

[slow quarry]

with the comically oversized visors
I think you mean comically practical visors. No one can see shit out of the tiny slit the adult males wear

[sly timber]

realism, and what looks "right" or not funny, are seldom in agreement in cinema

[floral idol]

Was anyone else wondering what happens as they grow? Do they just get their helmets reforged or is Ragnar just wearing a “hand-me-down” until he’s fully grown?

[sly timber]

no, it's clear to me that adult cultists all have tiny heads

[slow quarry]

Like prosthetics for kids I imagine they get replaced as the kid grows up

[sly timber]

bike helmets or other sports protective gear, for another real world-example

[slow quarry]

"You're an adult now. Time to start tripping over your own feet."

[sly timber]

but yeah, reforging seems to be the answer implied by what we know

[rustic dragon]

They don't reforge them, so it constrains the growth of their skull and adults suffer from horrible migraines all the time, this is canon now

[floral idol]

This is the way

[slow quarry]

Strictly speaking reforging seems unlikely given they'd have no face covering while that was happening. Practically I'd guess they wear the kiddyhelm until their head gets big enough to have an adult helmet made for them from some other source of beskar and their kiddyhelm gets put on a shelf for the next baptism

[sly timber]

Reforging takes what, a couple hours?

they can stay alone for that time

eat a bunch

[slow quarry]

Old helmet tossed around a corner, new helmet tossed back

[sly timber]

anyway, these are the official head to torso proportions of mandalorians:

https://monsterlegacy.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/mondoshawantalk.jpg

[slow quarry]

WH40K space marines! (yes I know 5th Element)

[rustic dragon]

Pedro Pascal soon starring in... The Mondoshawan

[sly timber]

Pedro Pascal's voice

[rustic dragon]

Will he remove his helmet? Only time will tell, but time doesnt matter as they say

[slow quarry]

Pedro Pascal is... The Mondasian

[plush ibex]

I imagine the same thing we do for our kid’s. We buy stuff that lasts 1/2 years at a time. Ahaha

Generally though I think it makes sense for the kids stuff to look plasticky. They likely have no deeds to their name yet. It’s likely a more symbolic gesture then a practical piece of kid with

Honestly, the kids helm makes more sense. Being able to see outweighs any other benefit head protection can offer.

[rustic dragon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO4K2VL0bSs

sneaky

[echo reef]

https://tenor.com/view/starbase-pride-pride-month-starbase-game-space-apes-united-gif-22014652

I can't get the line out of my head, and I'm sad it's not on youtube yet

but we've gone from this, for Gideon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sXp0fLhJ_c&ab_channel=Ashkhan

to

My ClOneS

[rustic dragon]

Heh I remember that whole diatribe just to talk about a single machinegun emplacement

[wintry nebula]

I liked his little-baby-man-heelturn

thought it was interesting to see him pathetic

[hollow fiber]

Gideon was a narcissist. He had to act and FEEL like he was in control, like his genius was coming to fruition.

But like all narcs, when you strip away the power, when you strip away the plans and the posturing and the emotional control they have over people... that's all you end up with. A sad, pathetic little person who hid themselves and their fragility behind an armor. He did this metaphorically AND literally with that power armor, but once his plans failed there was nothing to protect the little man he really was.

[jovial wind]

Someone meaby knows the name of author of concept art when Din is sitting near his house?

[slow quarry]

Been thinking about the fate of the darksaber and realised that it should have been sacrificed to reignite the Great Forge

The thing that glorifies a single person gone to resurrect the thing that unites an entire people together

[rustic dragon]

So much shit for that weapon to just end up crushed like it was nothing

Speak about anticlimatic

[slow quarry]

Ikr

[rustic dragon]

I'd actually have loved it if the writing rolled with it

Like Gideon seizing her hand firmly, then have a cruel smile and talk a bit more how powerless she was, how much importance her people put into a simple item that could be just crushed like that after mocking their faith and culture or whatever

And just be like crushing it carelessly with a borderline nihilist message

Or I dunno but putting a huge emphasis on the absurdity of the whole thing

That way at least you seize the momentum and prevent the event to feel jarring

[slow quarry]

I'd have loved if after his mocking Mandalorian trinkets she pointed out that the only reason he was still standing was because he was a weeb in power armour

Whose own grandstanding is what gave Djarin the opportunity to flush his ClOneS

[rustic dragon]

Yeah actually this makes me think I'm always iffy with mcguffins that grant force powers just like that through tech

Not saying it doesn't make sense, but it kinda cheapens the whole thing

On the other hand I like the idea so maybe I guess i'm more annoyed that it was affiliated with dirty science

Which kinda feeds into essentialism of "don't mess with the divine" kind of deal

Because I'm just feeling that they're not gonna be reasonable about what it truly implies if science can open everybody to the force like that. It's literally a galactic revolution on unprecedented scale

It's actually the most disturbing single point of all the new star wars series for me, just because of the sheer implications

And I feel like they're not even gonna notice and sweep this under the rug like it was never a big deal

[untold sandal]

Was the snoke was a palpatine clone and the force degenerated him quickly due to him being Frankensteined rather than true birth thing a fan theory?

[sterile forge]

Subverting expectations

[sly timber]

All we have for confirmation is Gideon's belief about untested clones, no?

[calm silo]

Seems like trying to engineer the Force never really works out. Going by the sequels, Snoke barely worked and was likely just a puppet for Palpatine. Meanwhile Palpatine's bodies always crumbled and decayed.

So it's likely that Gideon's clones were DOA anyway.

[sly timber]

That said, if the star wars people really pull a thrawn trilogy, we're gonna get another engineered force user or two

But as flawed as the ones you mention here, yeah

[calm silo]

Yeah, the old EU went between engineered Force users to it being impossible and then back again a few times.

[plush ibex]

If I recall, C’Boath was a clone, he was also batshit insane.

Though, while I feel it will be an adaptation, I generally get the feeling it will be pretty different.

[sly timber]

Yeah, the clones in the old thrawn novels were all insane

[plush ibex]

That’s the issue. Gideon wanted Grogu so he could harvest him for all he was worth, so it could be presumed his methods, with the resources he had available, would likely be unethical.

I mean, both the west and Russia found use for the Nazi scientists that meant they could use their talents elsewhere, same being true of the Empire, but I don’t think Gideon had anything to offer really. He just wanted to be special and didn’t care who he had to sacrifice to get there.

Though, I have always been in the camp of “literally anyone can use the force, just most never invest the time, effort or resources to do so.” I mean, Kruit was able to do a miracle in Rogue 1, and apparently he was just a normal guy who believed real hard. XD Even Gideon might, but that would have required a level of commitment he was likely incapable of, hence shortcuts.

[sly timber]

It's definitely a spectrum, not a binary

[calm silo]

Mhm. There are degrees of Force-sensitivity, Jedi and Sith are like the apex of what people can do with the Force. The Force is life, and the Force flows through all living things. Most people in the galaxy will never become Jedi or anything like that, but with training and discipline and a lil bit of faith, they might be able to feel the Force to some degree.

[sly timber]

And not everyone strong with the Force would end up pinging as potential Jedi, even on Republic worlds

IIRC Yoda describes Padme as being strong in the Force at one point

[calm silo]

Yeah, there were only 10,000 Jedi at their absolute peak during the Clone Wars. That's a very small number compared to the estimated hundred quadrillion sentient beings in the galaxy.

There are a lot of force-sensitives that wouldn't be under the Jedi/ Republic radar, even with high force-sensitivity being relatively rare.

(Also one of the reasons why Force & Destiny campaigns are interesting to me. So much stuff that can be done with that.)

[river plover]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/660181365752463370/1098903677558861888/v12044gd0000ch0ui5jc77u0i6nmn8u0.mov

[slow quarry]

Well, prior to TPM, while the implication that Force users tended to pass that capacity to their descendants, there was nothing saying learning how to use the Force was an option open to everyone just like learning mystic martial arts powers if they're willing to put the time and effort in -- a pretty on-brand concept given Star Wars inspiration is as much East as West. Making Force-use a purely physical trait thanks to being colonised by cosmically aware bacteria was one of things people really loathed, but although it sounds icky the way Gideon's gone about it, the basic idea of going for the Green Ending and saying it's not the ability to wield the Force that's special but the choice you make to actually commit to the cosmic understanding to successfully do so is actually okay with me

[slow quarry]

Yeah, but that was because (1) he was clearly grown at an accelerated rate to be an old man just 25 years after TCW which means you get sent made, and (2) made from a template that already had a questionable grip on reality

[rustic dragon]

That's true, fair enough

[rustic dragon]

Well it sure seemed to be the case with ep4 or even the whole original trilogy, but since then it's been a clear canon whether EU or disney that force sensitives are a thing. I guess what the disney canon hasn't reintroduced (to my knowledge?) is the agricorps for the jedi "rejects" deemed too weak to continue...

Obviously it's not binary, and if you mean using the force as a broad definition about feeling in touch with your zen and not outright do jedi stuff, then sure

[slow quarry]

I don't think people got sent to the agricorps strictly for being weak in the force but more for washing out as a padawan or not being interesting enough to get made up to padawan in the first place

[rustic dragon]

That's just a detail either way

There has always been a clear inclination to say that you train as a force user (jedi, etc) if force sensitive, whether through heavy subtext or clearer references

And the current canon seems to go further in that direction

aka While the Force resided in all living things, only some were strong enough to feel its power.[13]

I'm actually all for a more inclusive force and whatnot, but that's not the vibe i'm getting tbh

And if it was more inclusive, why is there nobody training for it at schools or anywhere in a lot of places?

[limpid jay]

I think the clones were supposed to be the climax of the Gideon story, but they later decided to make it Mandalore. Thus, they reduced the clones to a throwaway line

[sly timber]

The Jedi ARE the school.

[slow quarry]

Because it's insanely dangerous

[rustic dragon]

?

[sly timber]

And there are other places where people train, too.

the nightsisters, for example

the bardottans have their own force tradition, too

[rustic dragon]

Yes because the nightsisters were clearly advertised as a galactic school where to train

I'm not speaking about prestigious institution, I'm speaking, if everybody can train to feel the force, then why isn't there such courses at schools?

[sly timber]

So what, only schools that dredge the galaxy for students count?

[rustic dragon]

Why isn't it literally permeating the whole galactic society?

Why is it exclusive to a handful of force institutions/orders?

[sly timber]

because that shit is hard

[slow quarry]

Because you want the power to mentally control other people without trace to be kept under immenselu tight conyrol

[rustic dragon]

Do you have sources about this?

[sly timber]

Most people don't have the mindset to train themselves for religion .

a monk school is always going to have a relatively small intake

[rustic dragon]

A monk school irl doesnt teach people to wield supernatural powers

[slow quarry]

It's exactly like the situation with Trill in Star Trek and lie that vastly more of the population are capable of bonding with symbionts than the govt lets on because it would endanger the symbionts and drastically undermine the basis of their current society.

[sly timber]

because the galaxy is a flawed place, not a religious utopia

[rustic dragon]

I dont disagree with this possibility, but do you have sources claiming such?

[sly timber]

o rly

Are we really at this point in the discussion?

[rustic dragon]

Like a literal sea of potential students trying to apply for that ONE school that is mega selective and will only have 10k users over the whole galaxy?

[rustic dragon]

What point?

[sly timber]

the point where you respond in bad faith

[rustic dragon]

The heck?

[sly timber]

anyway, the state having a vested interest in keeping the powers of its magical enforcers to itself makes total sense to me

[rustic dragon]

How is this in bad faith? How can you compare two cases where a fundamental part of one is missing in the other?

How is that the jedi order specifically only recruits from force sensitive kids?

Where are the sources offering other examples?

[sly timber]

it's almost like this is wizard fiction, and there CAN'T be a 1:1 equivalent to real world inspirations, which we all know

[slow quarry]

Why do you think Force sensitive children are such a valuable resource? The ability to manipulate the Force opens up powers that can undermine and destroy cultures and commit epoch defining instances of change that can't be traced or even identified. These are just the kids who are going to find it easy.

Imagine then, if it turned out this resource was far more plentiful than you first thoight, but the effort you'd have to go to to harness it was far more brutal and intense than simply rocking up and asking a family to hand over their child

[sly timber]

why pretend otherwise?

[rustic dragon]

That's fallacious for the reason I exposed above

[sly timber]

LOL no, but sure

[rustic dragon]

But hey, keep dodging the question about sources

[sly timber]

a source that learning the Force is hard?

you mean, aside from the movies?

[rustic dragon]

A source stating that anybody can train to be a force user

Like I said the vibe and sources I've been finding constantly keep pointing in the other direction

Unless we're just not understanding each other and that you mean someone can with enough training, open themselves to the force so that they become force sensitive?

Unlike regular beings, Force-sensitives could harness the power of the Force, giving them extraordinary abilities.[15] (databank)

[sly timber]

you know, before you make accusations about dodging questions, you might want to look at the way the discussion went, and whether it's even reasonably understandable for me to interpret your comment about sources as being about the existence of schools, when you only posted it several lines later, where I was talking about something else

[rustic dragon]

That's the problem then, perhaps. You were talking about something else. No wonder we're talking past each other

[slow quarry]

And what's the point posting links to articles written about and drawing from the past quarter century of canon when the entire discussion was about the possibilities thay canon has trodden on?

[rustic dragon]

It was?

[primal cargo]

I wonder with that final scene in the bar if they're going to repurpose whatever work they did on 'Rangers of the New Republic' to fit into their ongoing adventures.

It was also nice of those guards at the end of the ray shield tunnel to have his pistols.

[autumn aurora]

The first row guys did too, but they fell. He reaches for the gun and misses.

[zealous pike]

Seems likely, Ahsoka also seems to involve a decent amount of New Republic things going on

(also I lost my shit a little bit at Dave Filoni with his hat just hanging out in the background of that shot)

[primal cargo]

No they were their (chunkier looking) sidearms. The guys at the end of the tunnel had Din's blaster pistol pair, because he scoops them up there

[primal cargo]

He was in that Bar the first time as well, in the foreground.

I'm sure Deborah Chow was also there too.

[plush ibex]

I mean, the ST literally invented the “light side” being a thing rather it just being the force with a corrupt offshoot. So naturally the definitions change. But likewise, star is wars tends to be really vague with a lot of other stuff. Was Kruit or Finn force sensitive? Or just being guided by destiny? We probably won’t ever get a direct answer that isn’t in an interview. Dr Aphra’s recent run also toys with this, by presenting artefacts that may or may not be magical, and force traditions that tried to use technology to draw on or emulate the force. (I believe issue 15 onwards of the 2022 run. Though it has some really trippy stuff throughout. for me, there’s enough to suggest that there are things in between that a Jedi in the republic probably would’ve rejected, that with enough time could develop a talent.

Personally the entire idea of canon is subjective at best of times, particularly in a ongoing property ran by a committee with the intent to profit from Joe public. So I treat it with the respect it deserves, pulp fiction that I use to fuel my performances around the table.

Gideon might well have been onto something, but that man had zero interest in even trying to spiritually develop himself, he just wanted the power without the personal cost. That he expected to take from other people, like Grogu, to pay that price for him. not for the purpose understanding but yet another aspect of the universe to claim dominion on. It’s actually kinda delightful to see someone who is so unambiguously ambitious and ruthless. It’s very 1960/1990s villinary which is refreshing in a era of sympathy.

Hope you don’t mind the wall, I enjoy musing occasionally! Ahahaha

[slow quarry]

Honestly I came away from TRoS with the notion that the only people who walked away from being stormtroopers were Forcesensitives

Which would make a very interesting basis for the first generation of Rey's new order of mystic peacekeepers

[sterile forge]

I hope that wasn't supposed to be the takeaway

"only exceptional people possess enough empathy to not be mass-murdering fascists" reads like a Randian wet dream

[slow quarry]

That movie was a paean to crybaby incel fandom. Randian undertones and supporting the Kreia-esque notion that the newly awakened Force was taking direct action to grab itself some new Jedi... would not be offbrand

That said, there all too many examples off common people having a complete lack of empathy or else the bravery to stand by it, and it requiring someone special to break free of that to show the way. it's a delicate balance

That said, the idea of many of Rey's new Jedi feeling the need to aid the spread of harmony and justice because of their lived forced experience does make for interesting story telling possibilities simply in opposition to everyone who did because they were raised to do it

[primal cargo]

Its not impossible force sensitivity broke Finns conditioning (hence the dicussion Phasma has about how their indoctrination shouldnt have been breakable).

The problem with that logic is that a whole platoon goes over during RoS, if I remember correctly and it seems a bit convenient for 32 or so force sensitives to be in the same unit

[light wind]

I find this season not bad
Sure it doesn't have the quality like season 2, but it still can hold up on its own

[sly timber]

I mean, pivotal events set up by season 2 happen on another show. I'm absolutely not trying to tell you how to feel about the show, but saying that the season can hold up on its own strikes me as simply untrue.

[calm silo]

Recently watched a review of the season from someone who isn't much of a Star Wars fan. She said the start of season 3 was confusing since season 2 ended with Grogu going away, and she had to google that he came back in BOBF, which is a show she didn't feel like watching.

Absolutely baffling story decisions happened in Season 3. I know Favreau said that audiences were smart and that people could always look stuff up. But a show has to be able to stand by itself. You shouldn't need to do homework beyond simply watching a show for the 3rd season.

[slow quarry]

A dagger tells you where to find a magic map that survived planetary re-entry inside a chunk of exploded Death Star completely unharmed in the same movie where Sheev somehow returned. That some FO officer managed to assemble the single biggest defection cluster ever doesn't seem that unlikely

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuoPrceXER4

[slow quarry]

And it would have been so simple to include 30 seconds of relevant BoBF material in the Previously recap at the start of the ep

[rustic dragon]

I never liked that excuse that the audience is smart to get away with literally any decision like that

[limpid jay]

If it is in a previous season or movie it's fine

But in another show, let alone a much less popular show, it is kind of stupid

[rustic dragon]

It's the marvel model I feel

Which is pretty common in comics overall, it was already the case in the dark horse EU ones

Which can also be debated, but there is also a thing that some features of a specific medium dont necessarily fit to another

[sly timber]

It predates Marvel, but Marvel has made it very visible.

X-Files did a movie that you had to see to get the following seasons (in as much as you ever were able to get the show when it wasn't consistent in the first place). And then they did a send-off for a cancelled (sort of) spin-off in X-Files.

[calm silo]

Here's the review I was talking about. It's interesting to hear things from the perspective of a casual, or in this case, non-fan and how things are viewed by them. Because the casual audience is really how these things become successful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngZ830k3Xcg&t=42s&ab_channel=LazyKates

She basically says that she felt the season was unfocused, and didn't focus on Din and Grogu as the protagonists. She found the focus on Bo-katan weird because she didn't have much of a connection to that character at all.

[sly timber]

yeah, we uber fans are just a tiny, tiny fraction of the audience

[calm silo]

The pacing was off, and she felt like Moff Gideon came in too late to be a real threat to anyone.

[sly timber]

I think that tracks with a lot of what was said by people on here

[calm silo]

Basically, this season had huge structural issues that were a detriment to it.

She notes that Seasons 1 and 2 had some of the same issues, but it seems she found them more enjoyable just due to Din and Grogu's dynamic, which really carries the show.

[rustic dragon]

I've had the same thing with some acquaintances that didn't get the "cameo" episodes with ahsoka or boba fett

Which are more than just cameos obviously since the characters in question are central to those episodes

They were like "who are they?" and later "we haven't heard of them since then"

[calm silo]

Yeah, I feel like this interconnected Star Wars show universe thing isn't quite working out how they want it to.

Also why I'm really curious how the Ahsoka show will play out to most people that haven't watched Star Wars Rebels. That show has a lot to setup for most of the audience to understand it.

[sly timber]

the expectations and biases coming into Ahsoka will be wildly divergent, yeah

And doing exposition without it being noticed and dragging down the proceedings is extremely difficult; it's one of the topics you always hear writers talking about when they're interviewed about their craft.

rewrite after rewrite after rewrite to get things to be understandable with the minimum of laying pipe

[calm silo]

For Ahsoka, they'll need to explain things and characters in a succinct way so that the story can proceed. In a way, all the characters have to be treated like new characters and all the worlds and concepts as new concepts.

Like how A New Hope starts in medias res with a story already taking place between the Empire and the Rebellion, but it's structured in a way that makes sense. R2 and 3PO, and then Luke, are the vessels for the audience to understand the weird world of that movie.

[sly timber]

a lot of what we know about them won't be relevant to the goings-on, but having or not having that background info will inform how one views them and what they do

all very tricky LOL

[calm silo]

Indeed. Very tricky.

[sly timber]

it's almost like writing two shows, one for the people who know all this stuff and get loud on the internet, and one for everyone else

[calm silo]

I do know Filoni tries to write with all of this in mind. He doesn't want people to have to have watched other shows in order to understand the things he's doing. So this will be a real test of his ability to write and fold in everything in an understandable way.

[sly timber]

then again, writing with too much of an eye on the audience is its own problem

[sly timber]

not sure how people who hadn't seen TCW experienced Rebels in that regard, what with Ahsoka and Rex dragging in their histories

[calm silo]

Then things feel like they're done for the audience and not the story itself.

[sly timber]

interesting to think about

[sly timber]

just a couple days ago saw some writer from Better Call Saul (IIRC) noting that whenever they did something for the fans, the scene would ultimately fall flat and end up being cut

even writers as good at those people always had to relearn that lesson

[calm silo]

I'm not sure, but I'm rewatching Rebels now, and in a way, you don't really need to know much about Ahsoka and Rex, or even Maul, to understand a lot of what's going on in Rebels. Mostly because everything is still firmly focused on Ezra and the Ghost crew.

And Ahsoka and Rex kinda explain who they are when they come up.

[sly timber]

Ahsoka vs Vader feels very different without having watched TCW, I would assume

[calm silo]

True. It doesn't have much of the emotional weight without watching TCW, though I think it still works somewhat. Since earlier she explained to Ezra that Anakin Skywalker was her master.

Thus the explanation was there for the kids who were watching.

[sly timber]

oh yeah, it was understandable

just being nostalgic about watching that finale and crying a lot LOL

[calm silo]

When it happened, I think Twilight of the Apprentice was my favorite Star Wars episode at the time. The stakes were high and no one came out of it unscathed.

[sterile forge]

This is way more egregious that anything Marvel's done IMO

[sterile forge]

It really does, it's why Season 1 is my favorite. I know a lot of people dislike it bc they feel it was too simple/unfocused, but I loved the elegant simplicity of the concept. It wasn't trying to be anything more than Lone Wolf and Cub

[sterile forge]

Really? Bc I've always felt the opposite about Filoni's work

I've always felt like his assumption is that you either know the lore on the "fan favorites", or will be willing to research it

[calm silo]

Season 1's simplicity really was its strength. It stood by itself, and even people who don't know a whole lot about Star Wars could still enjoy it.

[calm silo]

That's based off of a recent interview he gave when asked about the Ahsoka show and how he tried to write it. So I suppose we'll have to wait until August to see how that pans out.

[sterile forge]

That is exactly why it was so overwhelmingly well-received IMO

[river plover]

season 1 was peak

[sterile forge]

Weird. That entire show seems like a callback/continuation of the stories of a bunch of legacy characters

[river plover]

a few episodes felt like sidequest adventures but taht was fine because it wasnt really setting itself up to be anything aside from that

[sterile forge]

It seems like a show tailormade for people who have been following Ahsoka for years and years

[calm silo]

I remember my mom watching season 1 and 2 of The Mandalorian with my dad. She isn't a huge Star Wars fan at all, but she enjoyed it a fair bit mostly because of Din and Grogu's dynamic. I even remember her being mystified by how they did the de-aged Mark Hamill in the season 2 finale. Haha

[sterile forge]

Exactly this. I had no issues with the "Adventure of the Week" format; in fact, I thought it was part of the brilliance of it bc we rarely get to see live action shows that do that anymore.

It was like Kung Fu or some shit

[river plover]

yeah for sure. but then season 2 and 3 were trying to have their cake and eat it by having some big epic storyline continuing between episodes, and then randomly throwing in a dinosaur fight every 3 minutes

season 2 started off strong. the boba-fakeout was fun, and the whole taking down the dragon episode was brilliant build up to a big finale action scene with actual stakes

[sterile forge]

I'll be honest I love the Ahsoka episode of the Mandalorian but if I had no idea who Ahsoka or Thrawn was I don't think the final ten-ish minutes would've mattered to me at all. I barely cared about them as an Ahsoka knower

[river plover]

I liked the Ahsoka episode too, but i always think to myself, i'd have liked it just as much if the jedi they found wasn't Ahsoka

[sterile forge]

They took a page out of JJ Abrams book. Gotta have a big scary monster show up regularly

[sterile forge]

Agreed

I like the episode bc of the homage to old samurai films and the visual aesthetic

Not bc of Ahsoka

[river plover]

i was gonna say, the kurosawa duel was immense

[sterile forge]

She could have (and probably should have) been an entirely new Jedi and the episode would honestly be stronger for it

So I guess you could say I love it in spite of Ahsoka, although that makes it sound like I DISLIKE Ahsoka, which I don't

[river plover]

the show could have then spent a few episodes actually like, developing a character

instead of shuttling along a pre-existing one to their next destinationm

[sterile forge]

I mean, we got a bunch of episodes with Boba right after that. We didn't learn anything new about him, but the show did have him be around a lot lol

[calm silo]

The Ahsoka episode visually and stylistically was very good, I think. Judging from casual viewers like my parents and some of my friends. They liked that episode a good bit, mostly because lightsabers and its a Jedi. To most viewers, Ahsoka is just a Jedi character that's the new to them that they want to know more about.

Granted, the Thrawn name drop at the end doesn't mean anything to anyone who hasn't seen Rebels, and was a backdoor pilot for the Ahsoka series for sure.

[river plover]

yeah i can imagine that confused a lot of casual viewers

[calm silo]

To a casual viewer, for that episode in particular, all you need to know about Ahsoka was that she's a Jedi and that's it. The episode explains that fairly well enough.

[river plover]

if it wasnt for that bit then honestly the ahsoka cameo would have been completely alright, i think. i dont think she came with any other pre-needed context

[sterile forge]

Easily my least favorite part of the episode

[sly timber]

Nah, random monster fights have been with SW from the beginning

They're part of the fun

[sterile forge]

Yeah, but Filoni couldn't help himself

[calm silo]

Moreso, it's information that kinda goes over their heads. It's not something they think about so it doesn't necessarily affect their enjoyment of that episode.

[sly timber]

Dianoga, rancor, geonosis arena

[river plover]

i imagine a few people would probably be thinking "ehh? is that a character we met whos name i forgot?"

[sterile forge]

Sure, S1 had random monster fights. The fauna of SW is part of what makes it awesome. But S3 way overdid it IMO

[calm silo]

It's just one line of dialogue that they might not fully understand. But it plays off like a throwaway line to say "there's more going on in the galaxy."

[river plover]

yeah theres nothing wrong with giant monster fights but a lot of the time in S3 in particular it felt like they were happening just because nothing else was

like the GM just rolled a random encounter table because they didnt plan anything

[calm silo]

Not too different from Luke bringing up the Clone Wars or Han bringing up the Kessel Run in A New Hope.

[sly timber]

Yeah that's fair, just saying that this isn't a new thing

[sterile forge]

It's delivered at a super-dramatic moment in the middle of the climax, it's not really presented as a throwaway line but as something that's meant to be important yet has nothing to do with the rest of the actual episode. It feels very intrusive which is why I don't like it

[rustic dragon]

It didn't go over the head of the people I know

It left them confused and zoning out

[river plover]

the main difference being the camera doesnt dramatically zoom in on Luke as he dramatically says "tell me all about the clone wars" before the scene cuts away

[sterile forge]

Yeah, I was joking about JJ Abrams thing since he's known for chucking a random giant monster into most of his films

[river plover]

its just stated as a matter of fact thing

[rustic dragon]

"oh they're talking about stuff i don't know about in the SW universe probably... hopefully they'll resume soon"

[sterile forge]

This was waaaay different from those IMO

[calm silo]

Played more dramatically because there is pre-existing context there for those who know (plus the Ahsoka show was in the pipeline at that point as well I"m sure).

But to the casual viewer, at least those that I know of and speak to, it wasn't much of a big deal for them.

[sterile forge]

I'm sure it didn't ruin the whole episode for a casual viewer or anything, yeah

It just feels really intrusive

Way more intrusive than when Marvel does things like that

[rustic dragon]

The reaction I got was literally "oh they're looking for somebody and it looks important... apparently i'm supposed to know about this, but it seems like star wars nerd stuff"

Wasn't much of a big deal but it kinda was somewhere without them realizing it

Because they zoned out

[calm silo]

That's what I was saying, yeah. As fans that know a lot more, we can pick out when something seems intrusive or is said for a specific reason. But casual viewers don't have that context or knowledge, so it wouldn't bother or hinder their experience, I don't think

[rustic dragon]

Well i'm saying it did for those I know, so maybe not all of them

But some

[sly timber]

The delivery made it seem like when there's an important revelation before a commercial break in a soap opera

[calm silo]

LMAO

[sly timber]

Only without most viewers able to put the line in any context

The shape of a joke without the joke, so to speak

[calm silo]

In contrast, Season 3 seems to have left a good bit of casual viewers feeling like they were missing something or that things were unfocused and not as good or satisfying as the first two seasons

[sly timber]

Yeah. Baby's back? Wtf?

[river plover]

also thinking about it, something else that bugs me. for a season that was so obsessed with fighting giant animals every five minutes, im disappointed that they spent the whole season hyping up the mythosaur and then did NOTHING with it

[calm silo]

Yeeah.

[river plover]

it kinda shows up for a few seconds twice

[sly timber]

Well, not nothing. Just not the thing you expected

[calm silo]

I mean Chekhov's Gun right there. It showed up twice for like two seconds each.

[river plover]

it jumpscares din in one of the first few episodes, and then kinda grumbles right at the very end

[calm silo]

Is it going to be in the next season? Who knows. If it is, what will be the purpose of it? The Mandalorians are unified now so.. 🤷‍♂️

[sly timber]

I like that, actually. Mandos returned to their world, so nature is healing. The dragon symbolizing mando unity is awakening.

[river plover]

i mean at the very least i would have liked to see it in its full glory, or have the mandos see it

[sly timber]

It doesnt have to involve a big fight or a ride to be meaningful

[calm silo]

No, doesn't have to. But more could've been done with the idea. Which basically sums up the season. It's a whole lot of interesting ideas that aren't fleshed out or really capitalized on.

[sly timber]

Yeah, but if you had seen it, it would have been just another monster

[river plover]

it already is just another monster except this ones underwater

[zealous pike]

the farms were a cool touch along those lines. It took most Mandalorians abandoning the planet for its ecology to start recovering.

[sly timber]

Nah people clearly reacted differently to it than to the other beasties. It's intriguing, not OMG yet another critter

[river plover]

this. im not saying they needed to add a giant mythosaur battle with 4398493 mandos trying to kill it, but as a show that loves fighting giant monsters, it strikes me as wild that they didnt fight THE giant monster they teased the entire season lol

[sly timber]

You can always do more with a thing. Doesnt mean the show will be the better for it

[sly timber]

In a story about the Mandos coming together, not fighting the Mando symbol makes total sense to me

Fighting it would have been thematically stupid

[calm silo]

Maybe not. But to introduce so many ideas and to either not really resolve them, or build them up to only resolve them very quickly is unsatisfying to the viewer and from a story standpoint, I feel

[river plover]

yeah but its also about them rejecting the stupid bullshit rules

[sly timber]

I don't see how anything wasnt resolved here, though

[river plover]

im also very disappointed with how the darksaber and its destruction was handled

[sly timber]

Wanting it to be something other than it was doesnt mean it was left unresolved

[calm silo]

Well, most things were resolved ,yeah. Just in a very quick and somewhat disappointing way.

[river plover]

wasted a great opportunity for the mandos to reject the stupid rules of their self destructive society in a conscious moment and instead just went "oopsie it broke lol"

[sly timber]

I mean the mythosaur specifically, not the episode as a whole here

[sly timber]

I am surprised the show didn't go in the direction of interrogating Mando bullshit a little more, after how the previous two seasons handled it

Going against the creed has been shown to be the right choice in critical situations in the past

[sterile forge]

Yeah, Bo kinda just... Buys into the Watch nonsense lol

[sly timber]

Not the first fucked ideology she embraces

[calm silo]

The Armorer spoke of the prophecy of the mythosaur, and that the mythosaur rising up would herald a new age for Mandalore. The only one who saw the Mythosaur was Bo-Katan. Everyone else just has to take her word that she saw it.

If anything, the Mythosaur could have risen from the living waters at the end or during the battle so that the other Mandos could see it. They don't have to fight it, but it rising for them would symbolically make sense. Gives them all something to truly believe in. Something that can truly unify their people as it is a universal symbol for all mandalorians.

((Also I just really wanted to see what the full thing looked like))

[sly timber]

Maybe next season. But I think it's stronger if only Bo sees it, and the others have to take it on faith, on her word alone.

[river plover]

but on the other hand we've seen what blindly following faith without questioning it does

[sly timber]

Sure, but SW has never been against having faith

Quite the opposite

[calm silo]

Also another thing, it didn't actaully touch on the divisions between the Mandalorians and the Children of the Watch's cult-like ways at all, only in superficial ways.

It glossed over all of it in the end, which was just awful. Especially after the messaging and themes of the previous two seasons.

[sly timber]

Hey they had one fight! That released ALL the tension. Somehow LOL

[calm silo]

How do the Mandalorians feel? Will they do away with the helmet rule now that they're all unified. How do Bo's Mandalorians feel about the darksaber, the symbol of their leadership, being destroyed by Moff Gideon?

I guess no one really cares about any of that anymore judging by the ending.

In this season, we know more about the amnesty program and former imperials in one 50 minute episode than we do about the different Mandalorian cultures and how they feel, and that's the main point of the whole season.

Just baffling

[sly timber]

I love digging into that stuff, but this is the same SW that has Vader conveniently die and turn good ghost and then just do some fireworks to indicate that the work of rebuilding society will turn out fine

[calm silo]

The amnesty program and the failings of the New Republic*

[calm silo]

That's true, but with a television show, as a viewer you kind of expect it to go into more detail about these things than a 2 hour movie.

[sly timber]

Depends on the show, really.

[calm silo]

Especially if the show expects us to think this stuff is important and wants us invested in the conflict.

[sly timber]

The show's a light adventure with a bit of flavor added to the setting now and again, not HBO's Rome.

It can't be both, really

[calm silo]

That's all fine, but Season 3 wanted to tell a grander story, but it didn't really do the legwork for any of that is the problem.

[sly timber]

Hey I'm far from suggesting that s3 worked well. At the same time, can't fault the pew pew cartoon for being a pew pew cartoon

[calm silo]

Which is why they ended it the way they did with Din and Grogu going off to bounty hunt for the New Republic. Hopefully, the show will return to what made it work in the first place. Fun episodic stories with some character-based moments thrown in with Din Djarin and Din Grogu.

[sly timber]

Answer the real questions

Do Grogu's ears go flat under a helmet, or is the helmet gonna have ear pieces?

[calm silo]

Ear pieces would look goofy as heck, so let's go with that.

Would be hilarious.

[sly timber]

Like Iron Man's suit coming together in the later movies, but it's face plates and ear cones self-assembling

[tawny walrus]

Ears sticking out of holes in the helmet.

[sly timber]

And left uncovered???

[tawny walrus]

Are ears the face? 🤔

These are the great questions of our time.

[sly timber]

I mean from a safety standpoint, not religion

Imagine falling down and falling on your giant ear

That would hurt like hell, I imagine

[tawny walrus]

Now I want a 'From a Certain Point of View' short story about the Armorer and Din arguing about if ears count as face while forging Grogu's helmet.

[sly timber]

I believe at least one kid in the covert has a helmet that leaves the back of the head exposed

Precedent exists!

[calm silo]

Ran outta beskar. That kid just got a mask. LOL

[sterile forge]

That Pershing episode is kino af

It doesn't even belong in this show/season

[calm silo]

LIke the stark difference with that episode is astounding. It's not Andor-levels, but that's okay. It was a neat look into the New Republic.

[sterile forge]

It's the only episode in the season that feels like a real show with a direction and purpose, which is funny bc it ultimately goes nowhere. But it feels like something Andor or the Expanse would do lol

[calm silo]

And I actually like Dr. Pershing as a character. He wasn't a bad Imperial, but he joined because he thought he was doing good research then only realized later that it wasn't being used for noble purposes.

[sly timber]

I mean, you gotta keep your eyes shut pretty strongly to not notice the Empire's tendency to misuse science LOL

[calm silo]

If that was some of the Rangers of the New Republic stuff, I'm kinda bummed that show got cancelled.

[sly timber]

that seems willfull, not naive

[calm silo]

#ThanksGina

[sterile forge]

Naive actually is a word I'd use to describe Dr. Pershing

[calm silo]

I think Pershing was in so deep that he didn't have a way out.

It was almost a blessing that he got captured.

[sterile forge]

Or at least idealistic

[sly timber]

somewhat well-meaning but ultimately careless scientist heedless of the moral dimensions of their work is a pretty common sci-fi trope, yeah

[calm silo]

Of the amnesty people, he did seem to genuinely regret that things he did while working for the Empire.

We also know that in Season 1, he didn't try to kill Grogu while extracting his blood.

[sly timber]

he's definitely naive, but I don't think one can be so naive as to work for the empire and not notice what it does

[calm silo]

But even the Convert, he still wanted to continue his research, even if it was against the rules. And his naivety and scientific idealism left him open to being manipulated again.

[calm silo]

Maybe but with the Empire being such a vast organization. It's just a machine for most people that are within that. They're doing bad, but they may not realize it. To many people, it just seems very banal and almost "boring evil." The things you don't realize are really bad until you're far enough away to stop and think about it.

[sly timber]

the guy's job IS thinking about how his work can be used

[calm silo]

That's what makes dictatorships and authoritarian states so bad. When you're within the machine, they can force even well-intentioned people to do bad, and to make the wrong choices.

I think Dr. Pershing exemplifies those ideas. He regrets what he did, but his personality and lust for science made him vulnerable to the same things that got him in that situation in the first place.

He never got the chance to grow out of that, and the amnesty program failed him in that regard while elevating someone who's actively trying to undermine the government with Elia Kane.

[sterile forge]

Banality of Evil, yeah

You can look at Nazi Germany and see how easily thinking minds can be put to a common cause without realizing the full breadth of how nefarious that cause is

Especially when information is tightly-controlled and propaganda is deftly-wielded by a regime

[sly timber]

Oh I bet after the war everyone was like "oh we had no idea what we were working towards, scout's honor"

[sterile forge]

Lmao pretty much, yeah

To be fair, most people didn't know about the concentration camps, or at least the extermination policies

[calm silo]

Also as shown in the Prequels and Clone Wars stuff, the galaxy voted for this Empire. Both well-meaning people and not so well-meaning people decided to give up their liberties and gave all the power to one person. They believed he would make them stronger and more secure.

How does a democracy become an Empire? By the democracy losing faith in itself and people giving up their right to choose.

[sterile forge]

The ghettos, yes, the camps yes, but I'd wager the sweeping majority of the scientists and factory workers making Zyklon B didn't know what it was being used for

[sly timber]

nah, most people definitely knew that the state was effecting mass murder

[calm silo]

The majority of the people who work for the Empire probably don't think twice about it. The Empire is the state and they're bringing "peace and order" to the galaxy, that's the tagline the Empire uses to control people.

It's all for peace and order.

Security

Justice

All lies to feed to the masses.

[sterile forge]

I'm not apologizing for SS members or anything, btw, but specifically scientists far-removed from the actual implementation of their work

[sterile forge]

I mean, a lot of normal people seem unhappy or at least scared under Imperial rule

[sly timber]

I understand the propaganda, but there's a big difference between being one of a million of workers doing mindless work in a factory, and being a top scientist involved in work that even in a free, democratic society would be looked at askance

[calm silo]

Yeah, they realize what they gave up and don't like it.

[sterile forge]

But there's a difference between living UNDER a regime and working IN a regime

[sly timber]

working to aid the regime, yeah

[sterile forge]

Inside the system it is easy to lose perspective on what it's doing to people

This is the big issue with Criminal Justice and Law Enforcement in the US and why it's impossible to fix those systems from the inside

[calm silo]

For people the Core Worlds, their lives aren't all that much different. But for the Mid Rim and Outer Rim worlds, their lives are horrible under the Empire. Their planets are strip-mined and wrung dry for all they're worth to fuel the Imperial machine.

[sterile forge]

I think it depends on the work, tbh

[sly timber]

I mean, it's eugenics...

[calm silo]

For those who work in the Empire, we see a lot of them spouting the "peace and order" propaganda they've been fed. They think everyone else is crazy for trying to rebel against them. Probably thinking they're no different than the Separatists..

[sterile forge]

You can be a scientist working on kyber crystal research and have no idea the Empire is gonna use your work to build a planet-killer

Now obv once you know, if you continue to do that work, congrats, you're a fascist lol

[sly timber]

yeah, but the planet killer is specifically a new thing

making genetic slaves and shit isn't

[sterile forge]

Weeeeell

Genetic slaves seems to not be unethical in the Star Wars universe lmao

At least societally

Almost no one batted an eye about it during the Clone Wars

Which seems to imply it's been normalized for a while

[sly timber]

there was a lot of debate about them in the corners of the episodes that touched on the army

it's not front and center in the show, because it would make the heroes into explicit slave owners, but it's part of the setting

[calm silo]

As for Dr. Pershing, seemed like his primary research was trying to clone something by using two genetic templates and isolating specific parts of those templates to make a better whole.

It seemed like it started out simply as organ cloning, but then he got roped in with Gideon and that became "try to clone in midichlorians for my clones so that they can use the Force, please."

[sterile forge]

Yeah but this is like 20-30 years later so makes sense after a galactic conflict that saw them heavily used on the "good"/winning side, it wouldn't be viewed as some horrific affront to nature

[sly timber]

well, Bad Batch ||has the clones ultimately positioned as murder-happy kill machines by Sheev, in the public eye||

[sterile forge]

If the US had dropped two nukes on Japan and lost, it'd be viewed as the largest war crime in the history of man, but since they won, nukes kinda just became the norm

Oh my god, I'm dangerously close to a "victors write history" argument, ugh

You get my point lol

[sterile forge]

Oh I haven't seen Bad Batch

[sly timber]

oh shit sorry for the spoilers

didn'T think about that

[calm silo]

The ethics of the Star Wars galaxy are all outta wack. But with a galactic-scale, that stuff would really differ from planet-to-planet and culture to culture.

Even within a large governing body like the Republic.

[sterile forge]

Either way their creation (which is what Pershing is involved in) does not seem to be a moral issue, rather their usage/implementation

Which Pershing doesn't seem to care about

[calm silo]

And the Empire just didn't care about anything besides what made them more powerful.

[sterile forge]

You're all good! I don't mind the spoilers, was just saying I didn't have that context for the Empire's anti-clone propaganda

[calm silo]

Also we're specifically talking about clone soldiers there. There's more to cloning than just making soldiers.

[sly timber]

sure, but when you do clone tech for the empire, soldiers is a rather likely use-case

plus the obvious societal association will be with the clone troopers

[sterile forge]

Right, I mean the Kaminoans were already known as cloners long before Sifu Dyas showed up on their doorstep. I'm just saying eugenics/cloning doesn't seem to be an ethical question in the SW setting

It seems to just be another branch of science that can or cannot be twisted to unethical purposes

Whereas in the real world, the entire QUESTION of cloning sentients is a huge moral dilemma for our society

[sly timber]

The concerns aren'T the same as in the real world, but there are still concerns.

[calm silo]

Truly, the cloning stuff has been consistently the most interesting part of Star Wars lore.

[sterile forge]

Interesting 🤔 It always came off to me as a question of "is it fucked to create these guys specifically to fight and die for us", not so much "is it fucked to create these guys"

[sly timber]

Hell, Rex even talks about the ambivalence the clones have for their origins

[sly timber]

same question, ultimately

even if you create them just to see if you can, you've created them for a fucked purpose

[sterile forge]

I kinda disagree 😅

[calm silo]

"Us clones have a mixed feeling about the war. Many wish it never happened, but without it, we wouldn't exist."

That's the ultimate clone dilemma

Millions of sentient beings would not exist if they were not created for the express purpose of fighting in a war.

[sterile forge]

In the real world I agree, but imo that mentality does not really seem to be prevalent in SW's universe

[sly timber]

But from a writing POV it would be hella tricky to dig deeper into the cloning issues without also touching on droid slavery LOL

[calm silo]

I'll be honest, the droid slavery stuff never really clicked for me.

[sterile forge]

Not saying it doesn't exist but "should we even clone people" doesn't seem to be as big a deal so much as what clones get used for

[calm silo]

It just seemed like an odd moral ethical thing to bring up.

[sly timber]

I don't think it's a focus for the storytelling, but just the sleek industrialized imagery of the clone tanks on Kamino has always struck me as very obviously negatively intended imagery

[sterile forge]

It feels like a galaxy where if you just clone yourself bc you want a child, no one would care

[calm silo]

Since droids are purpose built and most don't actually develop any type of sentience themselves with regular memory wipes.

Most droids don't have a whole lot to do outside of their given function.

[sterile forge]

Oh totally, I'm not talking about meta-wise, but in-universe sentiments

To the audience, it is 100% supposed to come off as fucked

[sly timber]

I think for all the easy morality and fairy tale-ness of the OT/PT, these movies often simply present messed-up things without much commentary and let us draw our own conclusions

[sly timber]

neither do I

[calm silo]

LMAO

[sterile forge]

Like I said, it feels like a universe where if you clone yourself bc you want a kid and raise them ethically, no one would bat an eye. The Kaminoans have been doing it so long it's like the primary thing they're known for in-setting, even over being aquatic or super skinny haha

[calm silo]

And judging from dialogue, the Republic army isn't the first clone army they've built, but it's just their largest and finest.

[sly timber]

To me it doesn't; Jango's desire for an unaltered clone always seemed intended to be creepy

[sterile forge]

Just seems to me like when it comes to clones people are like "weird, but whatever". It's when you use them as slave janissaries or awful science experiments that it becomes an awful thing to people

[sly timber]

part of what makes Obi-Wan suspicious about the guy

[calm silo]

Geez Jango, just go find some lady to get hitched with.

[sly timber]

you can't take a salesbeing by their word, come on

[sterile forge]

Hey, he can't help it, he's Mandalorian, he's practically required to be a blood purist

I think it's intended to come off creepy to the audience but not necessary in-universe. Hard to say though, it isn't really dwelt upon in the movie much

[sly timber]

if he could have, he would have married himself

[calm silo]

I think also, a lot of stuff in Star Wars is presented matter-of-factly, it's a strange universe, but most things aren't all that strange to the characters themselves.

[sterile forge]

Yeah, also a good point

[calm silo]

Cloners? Sure. Clone army? ah whatever.

[sterile forge]

Yep, that's kind of my point

[calm silo]

A Jedi master ordered a clone army? WTF.

[sly timber]

that they're unknown to society at large positions them like, I dunno, the dark web or something, IMO

they're pirate bay

[sterile forge]

Obi-Wan isn't shocked by there being a Clone Army, he's shocked it's a Clone Army apparently commissioned by a Jedi Master for the Republic lol

[sly timber]

he's a cop, he's seen too much shit to be easily shocked

[calm silo]

Obi-wan was just bewildered, but played it off well.

[sterile forge]

Yeah but Jettser talks about them very casually as well

I mean obv not the clone army but

He doesn't sound particularly bothered by the fact they're cloners, he mentions it the same way he would if they were renowned bankers or architects lol

[sly timber]

wasn't he an arms dealer? or a mercenary? he'd be casual about that sort of stuff, IMO

[sterile forge]

Oh he was definitely bewildered but hiding it well lol

Which is funny to watch on screen

[sly timber]

"visible confusion"

[sterile forge]

Dooku would never

[sly timber]

A Jedi? Buy a person? The very thought!

[sterile forge]

Guns/violence seem a lot more prevalent than clones tho, or at least they were up to till point in the setting lol

By the end of the film all three go hand in hand

[sly timber]

my impression of the guy is that he's got a shady past and that'S why he knows about other shady stuff

[sterile forge]

That's valid, yeah. Is cloning considered shady then? I've never looked it up on the SW wiki tbh

[sly timber]

I try not to look stuff up on the wiki, it's all wishes and articles about boobs

which are also wishes

[calm silo]

Reitired diner cook who used to be this badass mercenary. Now he just makes pancakes and tells old war stories.

That's Dexter Jettster in a nutshell.

Man, Attack of the Clones was such a zany movie honestly. Sure maybe the weakest prequel movie, but it introduced so much neat stuff to Star Wars that's still being used to this day.

It's charming.

[zealous pike]

He's actually part of a little crew Maz Kanata put together in the High Republic Adventures in phase 2, which is fun

[sly timber]

I love it like the ugly baby it is

[calm silo]

Reminds me of how for the longest time, the breast article (Yes yes, I know) had a main picture that was just Aayla Secura's bare boobs, which was apparently an official art piece from some random Star Wars art book or something.

Was wild

[sly timber]

I'm amused enough by American prudishness to find the idea of official SW art with bare breasts hilarious

[calm silo]

It's so funny.

Well, I too, find Aayla Secura a very attractive alien woman, so I get it, but it's just super funny.

[calm silo]

America as a country is so desensitized to violence we can put violence everywhere, but heaven forbid there's a female nipple. That's just too much.

[sly timber]

You know that story about how the makers of the Hannibal tv show had to censor a serial killer's torture diorama because a bit of butt crack was visible on one of the bodies?

so they covered it with CGI blood, and all was fine for TV

[calm silo]

TV censorship is strange like that.

[sly timber]

In the Terminator tv show, Sarah Connor was not allowed to say "goddamn" in the pilot

Fox people were afraid advertisers and audiences would recoil at the blasphemy.

[calm silo]

Sure sounds like Fox.

[native pilot]

Since it was already mentioned: could you put spoiler tags on this one please?

[vast patio]

Visions artbook. The Ayala Secura painting was styled after the works of John Sargent and James Wistler, whose works showed that painting techniques could replicate clothing texture.

I bought the book after seeing that Alex Ross contributed a painting, Empire of Style.

[calm silo]

That's the book I was thinking of, couldn't remember the name.

[slow quarry]

I don't think she buys into it so much as she's just enjoying being part of something again after getting ghosted for not being the one to bust Gideon's chops, and ironically the same guy being responsible for both situations.

[slow quarry]

Not gonna lie, when they made a point back in season 1 how it was Pedro from GoT playing the main character, I was expecting a bunch of Iron Man style helmet interior shots

[slow quarry]

Blinkered is probably the best description of Pershing.

Given I also recall him commenting regretfully on how the subjects he's been creating have suffered awful deaths as a result of the midiclorian research directives Gideon is giving him. And Gideon basically just shuts him down because he doesn't view the clones as worthy of that concern as something as basic as living beings, they're just toys to aggrandise him. The ultimate throughline of Imperial "throw bodies at a problem until we win" ideology.

[green nexus]

Art imitates art

[river plover]

lmfao

i do wonder how long itll take a character whos only personality and hobby is GUN to get utterly bored of such a peaceful existence

[zealous pike]

well he's not just staying there, the finale showed him going to the New Republic base and asking for work

[river plover]

so not very

[light wind]

I guess only time will tell

[deft zinc]

Not the worst thing I ever saw

Mindlessly enjoyable at least

[vast patio]

At least if the show continues, it'll be with a narrower storyline.

Or it could with a narrower storyline.

[sly timber]

previous season ended with the kid separated from Mando

they didn't exactly follow through on that this season LOL

so who even knows what's gonna happen

[autumn aurora]

Next season R5 gets blown up and turned into a little car for Grogu

[sly timber]

why Mando man doesn't have a baby backpack or pouch built into the armor is beyond me

[autumn aurora]

He had a holster for a while

[sly timber]

beskar baby!

oh I bet he had a lot of holsters

look at how many weapons he carries

wait...

is the implication here that Chewie's bandolier is full of little Chewies???

[sly timber]

I meant more as part of the armor

you know

armored

like a beskar backpack with a little baby head sticking out of it

[autumn aurora]

He should coat his little floater pod in it.

[sly timber]

oh you know what, maybe the pod will count as the kid's helmet in religion

and he'll just stay sealed in LOL

and do everything outside via the Force, or some little T-Rex robot arms

[autumn aurora]

"Have you Opened your pod? Has it been opened by others?"

[sly timber]

"How does it smell in there?"

[sterile forge]

Probably will have to watch a different show to find out lol

[autumn aurora]

Could be Ahsoka. Seems like enough moving parts there not to include the babysitters club, but who knows?

[sterile forge]

I'd assume they have enough faith in Ahsoka's popularity/the concept that they won't feel the need to saddle her with more popular characters in order to get people to watch/care

Then again, I thought the same thing about the Book of Boba Fett

And Boba Fett is orders of magnitude more well-known/popular than Ahsoka

So yeah, who knows

[sly timber]

I don't think the inclusion of Mando and the kid and Luke and Ahsoka (takes breath) in Boba was about that character's popularity, or his lack of it

[autumn aurora]

Yeah it felt more like content padding for a show that didn't need to be as long as it was.

[sly timber]

it very much felt like desperate rejigging of something that had failed to come together on its own

[sterile forge]

That is kind of what I am getting at, although I may not have stated it well
"Oh, hm, there actually isn't really a whole lot compelling going on here, I think we need to add these more popular characters in to keep people interested"

it isn't just that they added more characters in, its that they specifically added popular legacy characters

For example, they could have chose to focus on Cobb Vanth to pad out more of that show, but instead only spent a brief bit of time on him bc they probably didn't feel he was popular enough to attract enough eyeballs

But you throw Din or Grogu or Luke or Ahsoka in there and that episode is automatically gonna start trending on twitter

[calm silo]

It's weird because the concept of Book of Boba Fett is interesting: A bounty hunter escapes death and wants to become a leader and a boss of his own.

Favreau spoke about Godfather influences and mafia movies as inspirations in interviews, but there was next to none of that in the present day storyline.

The tusken raider flashbacks were more fleshed out than the actual present day plotline with the Pykes and Boba taking over Jabba's criminal empire.

While the Mando and Luke episodes were cool on their own, they derailed BOBF when those 2 episodes could've been better spent on Boba's story.

[sterile forge]

Yeah, it was crazy for me to hear him claim those were inspirations for BoBF lmao

Andor has more in common with the Godfather/mafia films than BoBF

[calm silo]

I also feel BOBF was rushed because they wanted a "filler" show in-between Mando seasons or something.

The whole thing just felt off.

While we'll never know for sure, I think BOBF and Mando season 3 had behind the scenes troubles due to Rangers of the New Reoublic getting canned and COVID really messing things up production-wise.

[velvet saffron]

I'll never not be annoyed that they brought Cad Bane back, clearly playing off that canceled TCW arc where Bane trained Boba... but then barely developed that thread at all in favor of episodes that should have just been season openers for Mando, and then whoops Bane is dead now. They clearly wanted it to be a re-incorporation of Bane and Boba's mentorship-turned-rivalry, and I was hoping it would get its due because I always thought it was a shame that arc got left on the cutting room floor like last-minute, but it's like... they don't actually develop that at all, they just assume you know about it? That you know about this arc that never actually fucking aired anywhere? You've only talked about this shit in interviews and con panels, Filoni, you gotta actually give the audience something, y'all were perfectly happy doing flashbacks for half of each episode's runtime before this - what was wrong with keeping that going and showing us Boba's training and subsequent splintering with Bane? You beefed your one chance at bringing that storyline back, guys, come on.

Should have just done more arcs in that last TCW season, honestly, but what can you do

I had pretty tempered expectations for BoBF, but it still managed to sink so far below them that it (and to a lesser extent Kenobi) was like 70% of the reason I and half the people in my friend group never bothered watching Andor until very recently

[sterile forge]

This is why I thought that bit someone said earlier about how Filoni said he doesn't want people to have to watch other shows to get the context of Ahsoka was so funny, as imo he's known for doing exactly that

[velvet saffron]

I'll be happy as long as it manages to be a decent Rebels sequel - I'll be shocked if it ends up actually being something standalone enough for a general audience who didn't watch a nearly decade-old cartoon to fully latch onto

Though honestly, I might actually be underestimating people's ability to just like, roll with this shit, so who knows

[calm silo]

Filoni only co-wrote the one episode of BOBF. Again, Favreau wrote the majority of it. My guess is Favreau wanted a bounty hunter to play off against Boba, and Filoni suggested Cad Bane and probably mentioned the Clone Wars plans for him and Boba. Then Jon just took that as a given for the finale

Cad Bane should've been introduced earlier for sure in BOBF

Could have easily been a scene where the Pykes go to hire him to fight Boba Fett. Then you can have Cad Bane say something off the cuff about always having to deal with that "kid" or being excited about getting another shot at Boba.

Matter of fact, they even cast another young Boba actor for those brief flashes back to his childhood. So they could've did a quick Cad Bane flashback as well if they wanted.

While it's cool we're getting so much Star Wars now. I kinda wish we got less but with more quality.

[sterile forge]

Totally. Feel the same way about the MCU

[slow quarry]

I hear they're cranking back the number of MCU films

[sterile forge]

About two years too late, heh

I think the Disney Plus shows are just as much of a problem, fwiw

[slow quarry]

What are the new series in the pipeline, if any?

What If...? Season 2 is the only one I can think of

[sly timber]

The Acolyte

[slow quarry]

MCU crossover with the GFFA?

[limpid jay]

Loki season 2?

[zealous pike]

Secret Invasion is coming in the next month or two

[slow quarry]

Ah yes. Fortuitously S2 filmed prior to that guy the entire next phase is being built around becoming absolutely toxic and getting dropped by every one

[zealous pike]

Kang almost certainly has nothing to do with Secret Invasion

Oh that's talking about Loki

[slow quarry]

Must admit, I am looking forward to Secret Invasion quite a bit

Though part of that is to see how closely they come to ripping off the Zygon 2-parter from Doctor Who

[sly timber]

The Secret Invasion comics predate that, assuming you mean the Dr Who from a couple years ago

[zealous pike]

It also looks like it'll follow an extremely different plotline from the comic event of the same name but yeah the concept is not new

[slow quarry]

For a plot line like the comic, they'd have had to set the ground for this no later than the original Guardians film. Hell, having someone get killed and revealed to be a skrull infiltrator as far back as the post-credit sequence for Avengers 1 (it would totally have been Coulson, as much for how epic the dying line "You lack conviction" would have been made with the reveal).

The new series however is the same "a refugee race of shapeshifters have been officially allowed to live in disguise on earth, and now a faction are ready to upend that peace" as the Dr Who storyline, though sadly with 100% less Capaldi

[sly timber]

Plenty of shows and whatnot have done successful paranoia storylines retroactively. You can't pin things like that down to a specific date/movie where it MUST have been incorprated.

[light wind]

finally the season ended

[slow quarry]

You make it sound like there were enough episodes to drag

[green nexus]

somehow there were

[vast patio]

This is kind of a late observation, but did the showrunners kinda forget that the Darksaber was used to kill Bo Katan's sister? And that maybe that might make a better motivation for her rejecting it?

[sly timber]

I think they might have been skittish after seeing the online reactions of people going wild when Luke rejected his old saber LOL

[vast patio]

At least Bo Katan would have an established basis for rejecting the Darksaber.

[calm silo]

Only problem with that is that, in Rebels, she accepted it in honor of her sister.

One thing I wish TCW did back then was dig into the relationship between Satine and Bo-Katan. We don't really know how either of them felt about the other.

[slow quarry]

Did they ever discuss what radicalised her to join DW?

[autumn aurora]

Not directly but from the stuff she talked about this season with her dad it might have been him.

Whether or not he was actually Death Watch, I'd guess not, he was at least on that spectrum of traditionalist.

[wintry nebula]

https://collider.com/the-mandalorian-pedo-pascal-voice-acting/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox-CL&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR06BcDn3YV9yBNTR0QXtF6iqzMoDmf3cNns1CoRaezaFyVe2QagcfECDz8&mibextid=Zxz2cZ#Echobox=1684936930

something everyone's known for a while

but it's nice to have confirmation that pedro was neve on set for most of the show's runtime

[vast patio]

Did they do any Gallery episodes for S3?

[calm silo]

They have a gallery featurette next month on June 28

It will be very interesting to see that one.

[vast patio]

It's almost like they didn't want to talk about this season.

[green nexus]

can't blame 'em

[primal elk]

Season 3 gallery is now up on Disney+