#Andor - Episode 11 - Episode Discussion

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solid jasper
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Season 1, Episode 11: Daughter of Ferrix
Aired: November 16, 2022

Synopsis: A fugitive once more, Cassian must make his next move before it is too late.

Directed by: Benjamin Caron
Written by: Tony Gilroy

What did you think!?

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frosty sedge
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Yay, aliens! Aliens with speaking roles! Also, I would have hoped to see Marva again, but it's an interesting plot line - guess everyone gets pulled back to Ferrix for the finale. Though it would be kind of fun if Andor just went "Nah, they'll be waiting" and every rebel and imperial (and Syril) faction just spent the funeral awkwardly looking at each other.

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Also, is this the first time we saw a craft free itself from a tractor beam? That was a cool system.

solid jasper
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That I can think of off the top of my head? I think so. That was a cool scene. Nice to see the Cantwell on screen and not just in a deleted sequence.

frosty sedge
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Cantwell?

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ah, the cruiser class.

solid jasper
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Did they dub it as something else in German?

frosty sedge
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no, I just didn't remember it.

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(or rather, I'm watching the series in English, so I wouldn't know.)

ancient kettle
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Not gonna lie... I really dug dumping flechettes into the tractor beam.

solid jasper
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That was cool, but what was up with that spinning-inquisicopter-sabre type beam he used right after?

calm matrix
frosty sedge
frosty sedge
calm matrix
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Not going to lie, B not wanting to leave the house and being closed off was heartbreaking, poor little guy

frosty sedge
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True. Somewhere between puppy and aging relative.

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Also, I feel like the imperial spotter in the cafe is not going to survive Cinta next week...

tough quartz
tough quartz
frosty sedge
ancient kettle
viscid wagon
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yo fuckin BEYBLADE SHIP

viscid wagon
tough quartz
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The preference for an Alderaanian ident seemed significant for some reason. But I feel the scene was more illustrative of rising danger for everyone than any particular plot element being foreshadowed

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Vel being aware of the mother's death before Luthen's offsider is far more interesting, given you'd have expected Cintra to report to the antique shop rather than her girlfriend

frosty sedge
frosty sedge
solid jasper
viscid wagon
solid jasper
viscid wagon
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well, just her now

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:(

tough quartz
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Yeah, I'd thought that, but the whole tone of the conversation there that Cintra was doing what she was told, coupled with her independent exfiltration from Aldani suggests a chain of authority Vel is parallel to

viscid wagon
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or Cinta is just her own unit

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which seems more likely

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as in

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not literally

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but she's clearly a very independent operator

frosty sedge
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She's definitely among the more scary rebels.

viscid wagon
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I mean

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I can see where Vel is coming from you know 👀

frosty sedge
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both scary-competent and scary-scary.

viscid wagon
solid jasper
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But can we talk about the Niamos hotel and how atrocious their housekeeping is, if Andor's chest can go un-noticed for that long?

ancient kettle
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The real quesions

viscid wagon
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understandable

tough quartz
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I thought that was the girl he had shacked up with/

viscid wagon
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nah there were two folks on that couch and they were aliens

tough quartz
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well, one was

viscid wagon
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out damn spot

solid jasper
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Great, now we have to tag this NSFW...

viscid wagon
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I solved your problem

solid jasper
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I was only kidding... but just the same, I'm sure those who won't have that particular mental imagine swimming in their heads thank you.

ancient kettle
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The woman that Cassian was sharing that hotel with was a human.

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Her name was Windi if anyone cares.

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And she ran out of peezos and revnog

tough quartz
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It's entirely possible than Andor had booked the room for a couple of months and Windi saw no reason to move out while it was still paid for

ancient kettle
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Both people on the bed when he retrieved the box were aliens

frosty sedge
ancient kettle
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You liked it too

fleet plaza
frosty sedge
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No, it's on top of the shower construct. Reasonably out-of-the-way for someone just going about their daily business, but it might get found if someone took a closer look for a proper cleaning of the entire unit.

fleet plaza
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the place doesn't give off the vibe of being fancy enough to get a proper cleaning

fleet plaza
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grumbling about the Empire turning into defiance

frosty sedge
# fleet plaza didn't he hide it in the ceiling, by removing some paneling?

oh, wait - there's actually a tiny timing "error" in episode 7: at 41:49, there's a loose panel lying on the other shower arm that's no longer there in the wide shot at 41:53. So I guess Andor is supposed to have put that panel back on top of the shower unit, closing it and hiding the case inside.

frosty sedge
fleet plaza
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I don't know why the show would even suggest otherwise 🙂

frosty sedge
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technically inside the shower unit casing rather than the ceiling, but certainly close enough that no one's tall enough to check it without a particular reason.

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Also, I love how he triggers the little audio log thing.

fleet plaza
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love Melchi in the space hawaii shirt

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and the end, with the sun juuuuuust breaking through the clouds - Andor finally getting it, going from survivor to rebel?

ancient kettle
fleet plaza
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I'm so invested in the manifesto actually getting out there and not being lost

fleet plaza
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Any theories about that tube Luthen handed over to Saw’s goons? Looked like it would suite a more civilized clientelle

frosty sedge
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I don't think that's what it was (why would he bring something like that along to a meeting with a clone wars veteran?), but it's definitely an interesting idea.
Luthen as a thoroughly fallen Jedi... hm. Interesting idea, though I think it would dilute the series.

fleet plaza
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plenty of theorizing along those lines is happening online, yeah

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but he's had that walking stick in earlier episodes ,IIRC

frosty sedge
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ah, right, that's definitely the same weapon.

fleet plaza
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Handle seems to be made of different materials though.

IMG_3974.png
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could be that the character owns more than one walking stick

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could be that he's hiding a lightsaber in plain sight

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could be that the makers are toying with us, because any vaguely tube-shaped object will be called a hidden ligthsaber by fans

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For sure. Multiple walking sticks is probably it

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I think it would be a lot for the show to have a character related so closely to the rebellion, and so close in time to the OT, be a Jedi in hiding

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also, it's a distraction

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he shows the guards the cardboard tube

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the guards think he's only got a stick, and lower their, uh, guard

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he further riles up the one guard into stepping up to him, which allows him to grab a gun from the guard

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Besides, Jedi and lightsabers are very star warsy, whilst this show makes a point of not being very star warsy

frosty sedge
fleet plaza
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Probably just the light in the previous scene that makes it look more metallic then

frosty sedge
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or maybe just two props.

fleet plaza
smoky harbor
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i wonder if B somehow ties in with K2, probably not but it'd be cool.

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i have a feeling B doesn't survive the next episode, considering his special task

frosty sedge
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...what was his special task again?

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Also, having watched the space combat again, I absolutely enjoy Imperial facial expressions. There's of course always Dedra's lip twitches, but the captain of the Imperial cruiser going through denial, anger, bargaining and depression in the last eight seconds of that scene is wonderful to watch as well.

fleet plaza
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Oh yeah the actor did a beautiful job there

fleet plaza
frosty sedge
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Ah, right.

smoky harbor
fleet plaza
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good point regarding Kino and One Way Out, from the What the Force podcast

Kino didn't make it out because he's the person Cassian was before this transformative experience

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if he had made it out the prison, the story would be about how Cassian could have held on to being a survivor/trickster, instead of being awakened

forest jungle
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With absolutely no basis in facts from the show, I just assumed that Luthen's weapon was some kind of retractable vibro-foil.

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And just another old relic he had possession of, and decided to use as a self defense armament.

forest jungle
# frosty sedge Also, having watched the space combat again, I absolutely enjoy Imperial facial ...

I love that whole scene. Because it kind of makes you understand why the Imperials don't just blow ships into vapor at the first sign of resistance or running. They are so full of themselves and arrogant that someone actually fighting back takes them by surprise. Trying to run? Just up the tractor beam, over-heat their engines, board them and get to swing your ego around. It goes back to the whole thing Cassian says at the beginning - their arrogance is what you target.

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Hence why the Captain doesn't call for the TIEs to launch until after his ship is getting perforated by flechettes.

fleet plaza
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Yeah, like in TLJ

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with Holdo's attack

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It relies on overconfidence

fallow creek
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Finally some good Star Wars

clear trail
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Love Andor.
Glad they've got some speaking aliens... but wtf was with the design of the second (less chatty) one.
It looked basically human but obviously not. Which is weird. If you're going to have an alien, why not make him look different. Or just go with a human - I'm so confused.

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Also, Luthen (Skaarsgard) is a bamf.
That's the level of expertise I was hoping to see from Boba Fett.

fleet plaza
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I mean, Mirialans are funny-colored humans

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Twileks and togruta are humans with bits on their heads

frosty sedge
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The crude cybernetics were a nice touch.

clear trail
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Just looked a bit uninspired or weird. Maybe it's connected to some piece of lore I'm not familiar with...

Also, for the record, I'm the biggest advocate for the largest diverse scope of aliens.
Togrutas are a favourite, and I realised as I was complaining the other day about droids and humans dominating the frame of modern Star Wars films and shows, there are some awesome characters, like the pilot from Solo who dies during the first heist - that are superb!

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Rio Durant - for the win.

unknown.png
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Ardennian, for those playing along at home.

frosty sedge
fleet plaza
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Humans have always dominated the frame in SW

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like, I get the sentiment of wanting more cool aliens, but in SW they have always existed as supporting characters or extras

clear trail
clear trail
fleet plaza
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There is, but considering how disappointing Ahsoka looked in live action, I dont think even Disney and Lucasfilm can do movie-level aliens on a TV show

clear trail
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I thought Rosario Dawson rocked in Mando S2. Had zero problem with her whatsoever.
#MorePlease

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Still wish they'd brought Sebastian Stan in as Luke instead of CGI. I knew in every scene that they were burning through money getting him to look right, and it was super distracting. Instead, just get an actor in (like Solo) and let's get back to the story...

pure bone
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Saw: "Who is it?"
Luthen Random gesture at Tognath: "It's Tubes, he's my inside man"
Random Tognath: "Wait.... What?"
Luthen: "He's my man... he tells me everything."

I may have laughed a little too hard at that exchange. Properly broke a tense scene.

dense heath
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Do they ever explain how Cinta escapes the heist? Unless she killed the part of the garrison that saw her face, it's going to be difficult to for her to continue operating.

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Luthen's tractor-beam tactic: Luke pulls a similar trick on Thrawn in Heir to the Empire, but expends a torpedo instead of flechettes.

tough quartz
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I thought it was extremely obvious that Cinta did in fact slaughter everyone who saw her

tough quartz
frosty sedge
fleet plaza
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the importance placed on Cassian's physical description in the ISB scenes, and the lack of mention of Cinta, seems to point towards her Anakin'ing everyone there

viscid wagon
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A lot of people have been labeling Syril Karn as a fanatic worshiper of the Empire and its authoritarian ways. I would argue that Syril devotion to the empire is less political and more tied to deeper personal needs that are currently unfulfilled.

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BRUH

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oh he's not a fascist he's just an incel be nice to him guys :((((

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He's not a fascist he was just the deputy chief of the corporate police serving the nazis :((((((

pure bone
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Personally I'd liken him to being a more 'Javert' like character than an Incel/fascist.

frosty sedge
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I haven't watched the video and I'm most definitely not going to.

I think there's some value in differentiating between why someone is a fascist, not because it makes a difference to their culpability, but because it can give insight in how to prevent your system from falling to fascism by the active fascists gaining critical mass.

There are true believers who will always try to push any system towards fascism. I don't think Syril is among them - he'd probably be content in any system that provides sufficient amounts of order. But if that's not the case, he could likely be swayed to support a coup and will definitely support the fascist state.

frosty sedge
pure bone
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I can genuinely see some sort of redemptive conclusion to his character at the end. Maybe even a Pont au Change type thing (to stick with the Javert metaphor).

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and thats fair Cifer.

frosty sedge
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What I'd love to know is what Dedra's motivation is. Does she believe in the system? Is she a careerist?

(And also, how will she react to seeing Syril on Ferrix?)

pure bone
frosty sedge
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Jung got in. Admittedly he is a true believer, but I don't think Partagaz would appreciate his beliefs.

pure bone
fleet plaza
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oh hey a video I'm not gonna watch

but yeah, sure, his problems start at home; doesn't make them apolitical

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his living arrangements, the way his familial relationships work, his work situations(s) are all deeply political matters

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or, to put it another way: he can be both sad AND bad

kindred otter
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GenTech also did a video on why the humans in James Cameron’s Avatar were the good guys

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So

willow sage
pure bone
# willow sage now that it is mentioned this is actually a fitting comparison

My personal weird theory is he's going to see Meedro/the Imps as a whole breaking their own rules in the attempted apprehension of Andor, and thats what'll trigger it.
Possibly judging from the screengrabs we've seen, perhaps a comparison between his attempts to apprehend Andor and their own more heavy handed approach.

willow sage
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That would be interesting to see

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Is it bad I wanted the finale right after I watched last weeks episode lol

fleet plaza
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he was okay with breaking the rules from the start, though

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he's never been all about the rules, he's been about (his vision of) delivering justice

pure bone
fleet plaza
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he goes rogue the moment his boss is away, and even in smaller matters he considers himself above the rules (he changes his uniform)

fleet plaza
pure bone
fleet plaza
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he brings the squad into the community with the explicit goal of doing violence

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per the dialogue with the sergeant, about the, uh, scalpel of justice or whatever the expression was he used

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being the officer in charge, anything that happens is on him

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he does not have to tell a guy to shoot someone to share responsibility for the killing

pure bone
# fleet plaza per the dialogue with the sergeant, about the, uh, scalpel of justice or whateve...

A 'scalpel' with intent to surgically arrest one man is very different to the sledgehammer, which we'll likely see with the Imps next week.

They don't go in with the intent to do violence to the general civpop because, as mentioned above, the first (and only) civvie that one of the squaddies drops is immediately chastised by his NCO for doing it, whereas if it was a bunch of stormies, they'd barely have shrugged their shoulders.

Also, blaster shots only start getting thrown around when Luthen and Cass kill the ones who (again, not following orders) approach closer than they should have, causing the initiation of the chaos.

The whole things a disaster because he's clearly set up (by that I mean as a character, not some weird conspiracy type 'setup) as a fresh faced junior officer having to lean on his SNCO to get things done, and the folk under him don't respect his leadership or his intent, which was to bring Andor in by any means necessary.

fleet plaza
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one of the first things they do is threaten to kill B2 and roughhandle a senior citizen...

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this isn't a scalpel

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this is a guy who hates his domineering mother gleefully lashing out at some other mother figure

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the sergeant is as incompetent as Cyril; note how he freaks out and thinks he's surrounded, just because of the gongs

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and yes, they DO intend to do violence - that's the whole point of saying that the best way to keep a blade sharp is to use it; the sergeant is very gung ho about the whole thing

pure bone
# fleet plaza the sergeant is as incompetent as Cyril; note how he freaks out and thinks he's ...

I think you might be misremembering that bit. He doesn't so much freak out as realise the precarious situation they've placed themselves in after Andors mate causes the dropship piloted by the guy who gets sent back to crash and Luthen/Andor have killed a 3rd of his team.

And again, re: the violence as it escalates, that's the weak leadership thing on Syrils part.. the sgt comes across very much like many SNCOs I've met in my time that once given a plan outline by the junior officer, twist it to fit their own, 20-30 years of institutionalised thinking because (usually rightly) they believe they know better than some snot-nosed 20yr old fresh out of Dartmouth/Sandhurst/West Point. TBH, that episode if you replaced the blasters with rifles and their uniforms with MTP could have perfectly sat in any case study of what goes wrong when you deploy the military to do a policing role.

fleet plaza
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no, he gets scared as fuck

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"shit, we're under siege, they're everwhere" is what he says

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he completely misreads the situation

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he's a mall cop who thinks he can play soldier

pure bone
fleet plaza
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because they're scared, yes

pure bone
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I think we're just going to have to disagree on this. 🙂

fleet plaza
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like, as Andor and Luthen flee towards them, the sergeant just has his people standing there in the middle of a street in the open, until fucking Cyril of all people suggests that they should do something other than that

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they're both completely out of their depth after jumping in the deep end of the pool

pure bone
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They've just received intel they're after two folk, not one (which is the what they'd been expecting when they chose the team they brought) who were armed with explosives and had just leveled a building, wiping out a 3rd of their team and he's assessing the situation when Syril does the whole 'are we going to just stand here?' thing (which again shows his lack of experience and weak leadership, because he's deferring to his Sgt. to make the call and is now almost a passenger in this slowly evolving nightmare), and again if you notice its the sgt who makes the call, not Syril.

Likewise, at the end, he's the chap running around trying to sort out the wounded/call in an evac and shouting at Syril to try and snap him out of his trance.

Like I said earlier though, the crux of what I'm saying is I don't think its an unreasonable scenario for him (as a character) to compare his attempt to apprehend a murderer using 12 men, a warrant, and probably following the letter of the law with whatever horror the Empire and ISB are likely to unleash on that town while he's there to see it for himself and go through a Javert like epiphany.

fleet plaza
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Why do you assume he's following the letter of the law when Maarva interjects that they're not allowed to threaten B2 like they do?

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Also, Cyril is lying to the sergeant, at least by omission, about all this being ordered by the superior - not exactly adhering to the letter of the law, there, either

pure bone
fleet plaza
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The sergeant positions himself, in the earlier conversation when meeting Cyril for the first time, as the tough as nails, first line of defense of the Empire - that he crumbles that much in the face of adversity is a testament to his overblown ego

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Like I said earlier: Cyril breaks the rules in big and small ways. That doesn't tell me he is a stickler for the rules.

pure bone
# fleet plaza The sergeant positions himself, in the earlier conversation when meeting Cyril f...

Which is why its a believable character and the whole thing worked really well for me. They got the squaddie vibe for me absolutely right in a way most sci-fi doesn't, and tbh, going into a situation with 12 or so men (not including Syril), and losing a third of them outright, followed by another third to another IED attack in a rapidly escalating situation would test any real persons mettle, and its an absolutely believable moment.

To suggest he crumbles when he's the one trying to sort the wounded out/dragging his shell-shocked Lt away/take charge and organise an evac is to me, not the right assessment.

Again remember, I'm talking from Syril's perspective, not our own. This is the way he see's himself.

fleet plaza
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I'm talking about the image of himself he tries to project, that of a powerful man who can kick around the natives a bit, sort things out, and be back at the office in time for tea

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the sergeant, that is

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and the very appearance of the squad is what escalated the situation; clearly this isn't the first time the mall cops came over to kick people around a bit; the community is well-prepared for that sort of thing, and entirely fed up with it

their ship wouldn't have gotten blown up if they hadn't tried to use overwhelming force and violence in the first place and riled up a community on the edge of rebellion even more

pure bone
# fleet plaza I'm talking about the image of himself he tries to project, that of a powerful m...

Yep, and again that's the squaddie-vibe I'm referring to in the above. The belief you're the biggest, baddest thing out there, usually reinforced by 10 to 20 years of institutionalisation by that stage, usually followed by the rude awakening you're just a collection of flesh and bones and not everyone gets out alive.

If he'd crumbled, he'd have shut down and been combat ineffective, whereas instead he keeps the mission moving forward (even though he really shouldn't have done, as it was Syril that needed to call it and that wasn't going to happen because he'd pretty surrendered control to the Sgt at that point), and adjusts to the situation as it evolves.

None of this detracts from my original post that started this: the idea that Syril (who in his mind was following the letter of the law and in the right, trying to apprehend a murderer) is going to see some of the sketchy stuff the Empire gets up to, and have an epiphany that he's not on 'the right side', and his conscious isn't going to take it well when it hits him, is a totally feasible conclusion to his arc.

fleet plaza
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I disagree that he's presented as following the letter of the law. We see him break the rules repeatedly.

pure bone
fleet plaza
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How does he see himself as following the rules, if he's knowingly breaking them?

pure bone
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He's a human being, not eveything has to make sense or be rational. We warp our surroundings or perceptions of our actions of events to suit how our mind wants to see things.

fleet plaza
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Well, with that justification you can attribute anything to his mind.

pure bone
fleet plaza
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launching an illegal mission that breaks the law in multiple ways does not seem like the actions of someone who thinks he's following the rules

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he lies by omission to the sergeant about having sanction from his superior for the mission; he knows he isn't allowed to do this

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Cyril's thing isn't order, it's being The Guy Who Brings Justice

pure bone
fleet plaza
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and there would be a whole bit in the rule book for how to approach that situation

one that doesn't say "launch an illegal mission behind your superior's back and against his orders"

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again, this is Cop Too Cool To Follow Rules mentality

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I'm not saying that the show won't try to present a significant moral turn for him. But I do not see the foundation for the one you described in what we've seen so far.

pure bone
# fleet plaza and there would be a whole bit in the rule book for how to approach that situati...

That assumes that there was another person above the superintendent to go to, or that the system is real life equivalent and has such a thing

It's likely there wasn't, which is why he felt safe sweeping it under the carpet.

I cant imagine with the way we're shown the world of Star Wars, if you're a underling to a Moff, theres a way you can go round their back to get to a Grand Moff without it at best coming back to bite you really badly.

pure bone
fleet plaza
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There explicitly IS another person above the superior, because he went to a meeting to give reports.

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The corporate people are small fish

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Imps are way above them

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at the very least, there's gonna be a CEO or a board, as the superintendent is head of security, not a decision-maker in the corporation

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Obviously the Empire and corporations under it are corrupt. No one's disputing that. But if Cyril was actually trying to follow the law, he would have filed a report to someone - whether that's effective or not is another question

pure bone
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It has been weeks and weeks since I've seen the first eps, but I'm fairly sure the superintendent makes it clear whoever he's giving the reports to doesnt want the murders dealt with either and wants a 'clean bill of health' to show the Empire.

fleet plaza
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Yeah. He doesn't want to give the Empire an excuse to come in heavy - which the security thugs killed by Cassian almost do all by themselves.

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But if Cyril is such a believer in the laws (the laws of the Empire, that is) then why would he hesitate to report the superintendent or higher-ups to Imperial authorities? That doesn't fit together, either.

kindred otter
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Cyril believes in the laws. For other people.

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Him? Oh no, it’s not breaking the rules, he’s just being more ‘effective’.

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‘Doing what needs to be done.’

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It’s everyone else that’s the problem.

fleet plaza
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yeah, to my mind, his main trait is vanity

kindred otter
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Absolutely

fleet plaza
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He cares more about being The Guy Doing The Thing then that the thing gets done

kindred otter
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Yeah, he’ll do any Thing so long as he’s getting the - positive - credit for it

fleet plaza
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he just wants a mother figure to say he did a good job

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Will the show try for some kind of moral awakening story with him? It's possible, of course. Who knows; I'm certainly not capable of predicting where it goes, and I love that. But so far, it seems to me his story is that of a person who is perfectly positioned to grow a conscience but instead embraces the very ideals that have led to this shitshow of a society.

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He doesn't express any regret or even awareness that what he did was wrong. When talking to the guy who shows him around at the new job, he says he intends to clear his name. He doesn't say, he wants to make up for anything. And he's eager, desperate even, to be around the ISB analyst (forgot her name) even if it means filing false reports.

frosty sedge
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Filing false reports was before knowing her, after that he just plain stalks her.

fleet plaza
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he just repeatedly hangs around her place of work in the hopes of staging an "accidental" meeting with a woman he doesn't know but has invested with feelings of cosmic importance to himself

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you know, normal stuff

viscid wagon
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omg did we have another "syril did nothing wrong" conversation?

clear trail
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What about a Campaign idea where the players are a group of Corpo Investigators who become increasingly aware that their employers are both corrupt and cooperating heavily with the Empire, and while sending them on various tasks they come in contact with more and more Rebellion activity, until they're put in positions where they have to make some hard calls.
Early on, they could be running into Saw's Rebels and it's basically criminal or terrorist activity, but the more they pick up and understand, the more they find the threads of better motivated freedom fighting.
But it could all be up against the back-drop of them doing their jobs and having to return on a quota obligation, or they'll get fired and have nothing.

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(I can't post this in 'general' as it's technically threaded with spoilers...)

pure bone
tough quartz
# viscid wagon oh he's not a fascist he's just an incel be nice to him guys :((((

That's literally the position of the show, as noted here: https://discord.com/channels/281223108323704833/1038342638006448210. He's at a point in his ideology where he could become a fascist -- and let's be honest is overwhelmingly likely to -- but i supposedly capable of becoming a pro-order extremist going in some other direction.

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viscid wagon
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Discussing this is so silly. He's a fascist because he'sliterally a fascist. His ideological positioning is interesting but he is a Fascist it is literally what he does

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Like someone being a member of the nazi party because they're an incel doesn't make them not a Nazi

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and someone having fascist ideology because of their tragic backstory doesn't make them not a Fascist, it makes them like every other Fascist

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like, some people seem to want to define Fascism as only when someone is super comically evil and sociopathic; which is wrong. This series is demonstrating that Fascism is painfully mundane in it's origins and is, and can be, everywhere

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like this is just Hegemonic Masculinity

clear trail
#

I was in agreement right up until that last line, @viscid wagon 😅

viscid wagon
#

hegemonic masculinity, you mean?

clear trail
#

Yeah, I didn't see that, and thought Andor was doing a great job of not gendering Fascism.

#

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding that last line... as it sounds like it's contradicting your second-to-last line... if I'm reading it correctly.

clear trail
viscid wagon
#

oh, I mean in how Syril is a disenfranchised and disempowered man who uses masculinity to ascend to a greater social status

Now you're definitely right that gender isn't explicitly discussed, but I think the parallels to our own world are clear right? Like, Dedra is supposed to be a girlboss underdog while participating in the fascist hierarchy, Syril is supposed to be an oppressed incel who reaches higher etc.

#

it's not explicitly discussed, but I feel like this is how it works in our own world

#

and so we can discuss it using the feminist frameworks we have for our own world

#

like Hegemonic Masculinity

tough quartz
#

Thing is, there's really nothing "traditionally" masculine about Syril's self expression at all, apart from the whole stereotype embodied by his mother. His delight in peacocking is a trait many would describe as feminine. He has troopers as idol figures but as representatives of order rather than brute strength; he never glorifies in the physical and breaks down when confronted by the reality of it

viscid wagon
#

meh, that's simplistic

#

hegemonic masculinity in the victoria era, for example, was the court dandy

#

it wasn't feminine because hegemonic masculinity is whatever it needs to be to justify powerful men being powerful

#

the smart-tailored uniform is literally a part of hegemonic masculinity today, represented in the expensive custom tailored suit

tough quartz
#

People want to see his approach to Meera as sexual, but hoestly I don't think it even occurs to him to relate to her in a "me man, you woman" level. She's an idol of order in chaos, his fervour towards her is almost religious

viscid wagon
#

nazis love a parade etc.

#

It's hard to say if it's sexual or not, that's fair, but it's definitely an entitlement thing

tough quartz
#

But that isn't the ulture of the empire. a Good Man in the culture of the empire is part of the whole, doesn't stand out except as exemplifying the work ethic

viscid wagon
#

Why do you think that? I don't think we've really seen that tbh

#

ISB literally has the nazi officer leg pauldron thingies

#

they love uniforms

tough quartz
#

Fancy uniforms as rank is, well, expected, but to be honest, Syril strikes me as the sort who would ornament his uniform to show he was part of something special rather than he being the pecial thing in it, if you see what I mean

clear trail
#

Are you saying Syril's approach to Meera is a manifestation of his masculine entitlement?

tough quartz
#

Membership, not the member

#

as opposed to say Arnold Judas Rimmer, who absolutely embodies the meber not the membership attitude

viscid wagon
viscid wagon
tough quartz
# viscid wagon yes

I think that scene would play exactly the same regardless of the sex of the individuals

viscid wagon
#

nah

#

Syril would be a completely different character, that's not a useful road of analysis

clear trail
#

That's interesting.
I didn't read it as a manifestation of his masculinity at all...
We can chat more about it later if you like. I'm curious about your perspective on it.

It's too tricky have two conversations at once here. 😅

tough quartz
#

Having the Syril/Meera scene play out as m/m would have been an interesting counterpoint to Vel/Cintra, but of course you'd lose the whole meta point about the girlboss angle sucking you into cheering for Meera in the early eps until you realise she's probably even worse than the other because she's a competent fascist

viscid wagon
clear trail
#

It's too tricky for me.

#

😆

viscid wagon
#

xD fair fair

tough quartz
viscid wagon
#

I mean, I don't think Syril is being misogynistic or whatever because he's a man, I think he's being misogynistic because we've been given those signals based on his background to which him being male is important

#

I'm not going "Man touch woman worse than man touch man 😡"

clear trail
#

While hoping to avoid sounding rude - I'm less worried about the modern codification of the characters and their actions, and more interested in the overarching motivations, world-views, and morals that lead to the various choices and actions. Sure some of those things borrow their categorical delineations from modern terminology, but quality characters in quality stories should be grouped and assessed after the fact, not prior...

viscid wagon
#

I don't follow, and you're not being rude

#

I see this show as an important exploration of Fascism and revolt - something I've said the Star Wars universe is designed for for a while

#

it necessarily has real world mirrors, cause that's the point right?

clear trail
#

Terms like incel and girlboss don't seem to apply quite precisely, which is a good thing.

#

Same with feminism, etc.

viscid wagon
#

I don't think that's true, Saw is expressly an Anarchist

#

they're supposed to be mirrors to real world ideologies

clear trail
#

And absolutely - I've always struggled with the roleplay expectation that we can play in the Star Wars universe and have a politically-vacuous conversation about it.
It's hyper politically oriented, like any good sprawling 'war' setting should be.

#

Sure, he's an Anarchist, and there are Fascists, and there are a lot of ways in which we have to talk about these things and use the most apt titles to cover them.

#

Maybe it's just the incel/girlboss ones that throw me.
Syril isn't an incel. Not even remotely...
And Meera isn't trying to be a girlboss or prove anything, she's actually just passionate about her worldview and job... She's not trying to prove anything to anyone for the sake of proving it... she's trying to get things done she believes in.

viscid wagon
#

That's fair. I suppose he's not an incel specifically, but I think he's very much what I was talking about earlier - the oppressed and entitled man who wants to achieve social status through the fascist system

#

on Dedra, I think you're mostly right, although I don't think she's just there to chase rebels I think the way she behaved around getting clearance on Ferrix was leaning towards bureaucracy

#

but very gently, otherwise I agree with you

#

I meant more about her status as the female underdog in a male-dominated "industry"

#

like, yeah, Syril isn't on holo-chan posting about skull shape

clear trail
#

hahaha

#

Why do you think Syril is so fanatically obsessed with Andor...

viscid wagon
#

XD

#

Andor is the chad alpha

clear trail
#

...is he though?

viscid wagon
#

nahhh he's the sigma /j

clear trail
#

Oh, jokes. sorry

viscid wagon
#

yeyeye

clear trail
#

hahaha, I'm trying to validate your statements without knowing much about where you're coming from, apologies.

viscid wagon
#

all good

#

my bad, should be clearer

clear trail
#

What does Andor represent to Syril personally that fills him with the need to invest and endanger so much to try to catch him?

#

And from VERY early on...

viscid wagon
#

I think early on it was about being dedicated to law and order right. He wanted to be seen as competent and enforcing the proper state of things

#

I still think it's partially that, although now there's a point of personal pride

#

Andor killed his men, embarassed him, and lost his job

#

he wants to clear his name

#

so now he's joined the volunteer-fascist petit bourgeoisie network, sort of

smoky harbor
#

Do we know if Syril’s supposed to be in Season 2? Odds on him being iced next episode, probably by the Imperials?

clear trail
#

I personally find him very intriguing and like his character a lot - simply because he basically represents all the things I find abhorrent in a totalitarian regime.

viscid wagon
#

oh ya

#

it's especially a bit of a dark mirror for me as I too had a narcissistic mum like his... and had the classic trans woman fashy phase in my early teens...

clear trail
#

It will be interesting to see if they try to redeem him, or have him descend further - or just destroy him as collateral damage amidst the chaos.

#

I do have a weird point...

#

Meera's resistance to his advances is NOT by the books.

viscid wagon
#

it's cause it's common, so you learn to downplay it's significance

clear trail
#

If she was leaning fully into her purity of power ideologies, like she's helping the Empire to establish, she would have had him reported and/or shot/imprisoned etc...

#

But she didn't.

viscid wagon
#

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's just classic downplaying the significance of micro-aggressions

#

like, I don't report the shit that happens to me all the time

#

although I've started trying to

smoky harbor
#

Yeah calling it out might be “more trouble than it’s worth” for her/damage the image she’s built

clear trail
#

What if it's more to her?

#

She looks flustered by it.

viscid wagon
#

I mean, wouldn't you?

clear trail
#

100% of the people around her are functioning within the power dynamics or criminals to it.
Except Syril, and she's afraid for her life at first if I remember the scene correctly, but then when it's clear he's obsessed it rattles her.

#

My theory is one of the reasons she's merciful towards him instead of destroying him and the threat he suddenly becomes to her position - is that she sees something in him that she actually resonates with. She doesn't feel those things towards him, but considering the power in which she's grown and survived (festered?) - she relates to his fanaticism on some level.

tough quartz
# clear trail Maybe it's just the incel/girlboss ones that throw me. Syril isn't an incel. ...

No one is saying that's what they're being constructed as in-universe, but the storytellers ARE using those tropes as hooks into characters which they then later subvert, such as plucky newbie cutting through the incompetence and venality of the ISB only to be revealed as perfectly happy to terrorise and torture others with the death screams of aliens. o if Meera is a bait-and-switch girlboss hook, then you have to be open to the possibility that in essentially using similar tropes for Syril as were used for Kylo Ren we can expect a subversion of somekind there

clear trail
#

I suppose that's possible.
I guess I'm trying to let the text speak for itself instead of coming to it with any pre-meditated formulaic 'lens'.
This is the same issue I have with the Hero's Journey, or anything else...
It's not a trope if it's just a well motivated character in a suitably complicated conflict.

It's the same frustration I face with tabletop RPGs when players feel the need to codify everything as 'loot' or fetch-quests or bottle-episodes...
And I think Andor is doing a pretty good job of neither portraying or out-right subverting the tropes and expectations.
Doing something in a story just because your audience doesn't expect it is just as crappy and dysfunctional in storytelling as doing something specifically because it's expected...

tough quartz
#

Tropes aren't bad things, they're just a recognisable pattern of behaviour

clear trail
#

Yeah, I'm just saying I tend to be a bit blind to them.
I'm recusing myself from being able to accurately speculate on the writers' approach based on the limited evidence.

fleet plaza
#

With how much screentime has been devoted to how mother/son relationships can shape out and shape the involved people, and the way men express compassion and relate to each other in all-male environments, I think the show is very interested in gender.

viscid wagon
#

^

frosty sedge
# clear trail I suppose that's possible. I guess I'm trying to let the text speak for itself i...

I think Andor definitely plays with expectations - the only reason Dedra's sympathy arc works is because we want to see the scrappy underdog succeed - until we realize what success means. They explicitly pointed that out in their interviews.

I think there's a difference between simply doing something different because it's unexpected ("The 1950s noir heist was going well when suddenly - ALIENS!") versus using established tropes as a shorthand for "Remember this start? Well, consider that these prerequisites could also lead to something entirely different if we swap out seemingly minor details!"
Like Dedra's competence in the face of adversity not actually being indicative of heroism.
Like Syril not being the amateur impressing the pro and instead being portrayed as a stalker.

frosty sedge
# clear trail My theory is one of the reasons she's merciful towards him instead of destroying...

There's definitely a little sympathy towards him at the start - maybe because he turns out to be helpful to her, maybe because aiding him is undoing something Blevin did.

I'm not sure why she doesn't destroy him at the ISB gates. Could be some lingering sympathy that he's rapidly using up, some indicator that she doesn't actually subscribe to the Empire's full ideology and is just ruthless within the confines of her job or maybe the whole thing is massaged a little by the requirements of the plot that needs Syril to not turn up in Nakina 26 right now.

pure bone
#

I think its probably because she knows she doesn't need to destroy him, as she knows (or at least, believe she knows) where the power in their dynamic lies, and as a competent intelligence officer knows its a waste to burn a potential asset.

Its the sort of approach you could see a character such as Carrie in Homeland taking.

fleet plaza
#

I mean, if he had been armed, he could have killed her right there after being rejected. I don't know that she's unaware of that.

viscid wagon
#

^

pure bone
#

Its been a bit since I saw it, but iirc the way she reacts is pretty much fits that. There's a brief moment of fear, followed by her reading the situation and seeing how the cards really lay.

fleet plaza
#

she noticeably un-tenses in the following scene when she's finally alone in her office; I don't think she stops being wary even after she realizes how unhinged Syril is

mystic minnow
#

I feel bad for the thousands of people in the kilometers of land Luthen just carelessly lasered with his gimmicky spin laser

fleet plaza
#

no land in space, man

pure bone
# fleet plaza she noticeably un-tenses in the following scene when she's finally alone in her ...

Which absolutely is a believable moment that also kind of ties into it. Using (a simplistic analogy I know, so lets try to not get bogged down discussing the minutiae of it) it's the equivalent of having a vicious guard dog. You know what the established hierarchical structure between you and the dog is, but there's still that un-nerving thought lurking around in the back of your head when you're around it that it could rip your throat out if it wanted.

fleet plaza
#

sounds less like a hierarchy and more like a heartfelt wish LOL

pure bone
#

I'm confused, do you mean that's my hearfelt wish? 😄

fleet plaza
#

dog owner's

pure bone
#

Ah I get you. In the analogy, its more basic animal husbandry in the case of the analogy. In the case of Meedro, its more she's ran the numbers in her head, and thinks the minimal risk (judging from the way she looks down on him) is worth it vs. the potential benefits it could yield in the future.

fleet plaza
#

I think the benefit of not calling attention to the incident by calling for guards is that she doesn't want to be the object of gossip, and not any spy stuff.

pure bone
#

Maybe that too.

fleet plaza
#

Coworkers gossiping behind her back about how men show up and make a scene here, how unprofessional of her.

That sort of thing.

#

Calls back to Cassian's mom disdainfully saying "your women" to him when discussing his life

pure bone
#

That probably plays into it as well, but (again, my reading of the character) she's ideologically and professionally driven first and foremost, and will use any asset to achieve her aim.

fleet plaza
#

sure, that's why she doesn't want to show any (perceived) weakness at work

pure bone
#

Yep. I'm just saying it can be both things at the same time, I just think it probably leans more towards her looking at him as a useful asset going forward.

viscid wagon
#

I stan stan

fleet plaza
#

I could always be wrong, but with how skewed the male/female ratio is at the ISB, the show is doing something with that, IMO

#

It's nice to see some thoughtful interrogation of the structural imbalances the OT showed but didn't do anything with (only male humans in the Imperial military and government)

#

quite possibly because the makers weren't aware or interested in those matters back then

tough quartz
fleet plaza
#

unconscious, then

clearly choices were made along gender lines, but how self-aware they were of those choices I don't know, is that I'm saying

pure bone
#

When it comes to the way Disney/new material handles the Empire, there is a risk we're applying our own world onto the way they regard these things.

Since they've too the reins, off the top of my head (and I'm not a fanatical follower of every bit of content) we've had Sloane, Pryce, Reeva, Meedro, POC and female Infanteers and Naval personnel in command roles, as well as Kerrill and that gay chap in Squadrons which lead to that atrocious article Polygon quickly threw out at the time.

The Empire in Star Wars to me seems very unconcerned with anything beyond the qualifier of a person being human (or near human) in recruiting folk into their ranks/handing out key roles (the promotion of which seems to oscillate wildly between competence, corruption and political connections depending what is required at that given point) in their quest for oppressing the Galaxy.

fleet plaza
#

nah, there are still far, far more men in positions of power than women

#

and SW is a mirror, not an attempt to portray a wildly different world "logically" or however one wants to call that sort of thing

#

it's made up of bits of old sci-fi and historical references

#

of course we're looking at it from our own points of view; that's how it's designed to be looked at

kindred otter
#

Very explicitly a mirror

frosty sedge
#

Yeah, I don't think we were ever specifically told the Empire was sexist or non-sexist, but this series definitely draws attention to the imbalance by making them part of Dedra's fake-underdog characterization.

fleet plaza
#

told, in dialogue? no

shown on screen? absolutely

frosty sedge
# fleet plaza told, in dialogue? no shown on screen? absolutely

Sure, but was that something they wanted to express about the Empire or was it something they didn't think not to express because of how our world operates (and operated to an even greater degree when the first movies were filmed)?
There are dozens of fantasy rpgs that claim equal rights in the core book, but the adventure modules still have a king offer a reward for rescuing a princess simply because thinking outside the confines of our society takes conscious effort.

fleet plaza
#

Depends how much importance you place on artist's intentions. And what they say about themselves and their work.

#

Looking at the movies independently of what their makers' politics and concerns were then (or are now) is pretty much the only way you can evaluate them. Any info about the makers will be biased and filtered in some way.

frosty sedge
#

Particularly with something like Star Wars, I think authorial intent can't be easily discarded because the universe takes quite a few shortcuts. We could consider every single Star Wars story under the viewpoint of the good guys being slave owners, but most interpretations are probably improved by disregarding the topic of droid slavery entirely.

fleet plaza
#

Funnily enough, I think pretty much the opposite is the case, actually.

Droid slavery is an interesting undercurrent to the more obvious goings-on on screen, and informs a lot of what happens and how we interpret it.

frosty sedge
#

In the words of our new favourite fascist boss: Thesis, please.

tough quartz
#

The pro-human dudes stance of the empire was backfilled into the space occupied by lack of budget meaning apart from chewie aliens only existed as background colour in the first film, and the real world bias against women at the time (on top of Lucas' deliberate attempt to invoke the feel of WW2). And while that is a supremely easy parallel to place on it, I wonder how people would be reacting to the Empire had it been every bit as pluralistic as the Rebellion?

fleet plaza
#

You mean, entirely human?

#

And there's no Leia equivalent on the imperial side in ANH, either

tough quartz
#

Again, budget in play: you don't see alien rebels until ep 6, but no one calls out the Rebellion as Humanity Fuck Yeah

fleet plaza
#

Because they display an entirely different attitude to Chewie on screen

#

The movie shows these differences

#

Plus, all the jokes about Chewie and the droids not getting a medal, etc from the fandom

tough quartz
fleet plaza
#

Standing up to Vader and Tarkin. Taking charge of her rescue.

tough quartz
#

Sassing Vader and Tarkin is as much about Vader and Tarkin as it is about her, and the immediare response to "taking charge" is to set the stage for her and Han's romantic subplot for the rest of the trilogy

fleet plaza
#

This is so backwards, btw. Dismissing the things she does as not counting, in order to say she does less.

tough quartz
#

Not really. You have to contextualise how actions are taking place in the larger narrative and whether or not the storytellers are playing takeback

fleet plaza
#

Your choices about how to contextualize them are what I'm commenting on.

tough quartz
#

It's like how you could have gay characters in movies only if they all die in the end or otherwise suffer so the social status quo is reinforced

fleet plaza
#

Except Leia isn't particularly punished for being who she is.

tough quartz
#

Remember, Lucas is the guy who told Carrie she had to wear nipple tape becausethere were no bras in space. the guy is questionable

#

He will absolutely give you something with one hand, then try to take it back. Like Leia being 100% correct aboiut the empire tracking them, then just leading the empire directly to Yavin

fleet plaza
#

That doesn't reflect badly on Leia. She took the Empire's plan and made it into a strength

#

That's not taking back from her character

tough quartz
#

SO sure she's sassy and resolute in the face of torture, but the characters who actually take action against the sea of troubles and end them are all dudes

#

I'm not talking character, I'm talking role ^ narrative function

fleet plaza
#

Nah, that's some "cooking and cleaning the house isn't REAL work" type stuff, I don't truck with that. Dismissing a female character's actions because they don't fit the stereotype of male worthiness is more than just a little sketchy

tough quartz
#

And again, look at what Lucas does with Padme. She goes from the girl who took down the Trade federation to someone who gets hot for the broken boy who commits genocide to ultimately a disposable womb who just gives up on living when she's served her ultimate purpose of introducing the twins to the narrative.

fleet plaza
#

And Anakin goes from kid who takes out a ship full of robots to a depressed lapdog

tough quartz
#

And again, Lucas is a terrible storyteller in some respects , but being the psychotic depressed lapdog was always Anakin's fate. Padme never had that sort of prewritten destiny, her only fixed points being delivering the twins in manner that left Vader unaware of their existence and dying.
I will go back and concede her getting to own the escape from Bespin far more successfully than in ep 4, but again I feel like ultimately we see her concede her authority to Luke in matters of rescuing Han and function is to once again nurse him through trauma

#

WereTESB written today, I feel the finale scene would have ended with her telling Lando they'd see him and Chewie on Tattooine as we see Luke receive his new hand

pure bone
clear trail
#

Is Bail Organa the only functional present actual father in live action Star Wars?

There are arguable father figures, but present, engaged, and contributing fathers during children's formative years.

fleet plaza
#

Uncle Owen?

#

he's called uncle, but he fills the role of an adoptive father

willow sage
#

Plo Koon?

fleet plaza
#

Straight to the bottom of the barrel

maiden sable
#

definitely a dumb 'cool' moment like the hammerhead in rogue one

mystic minnow
#

yeah its been the only moment i think so far that made me question the logic of it

#

i guess when you have 11 episodes of stellar logic you have to throw in some dumb gimmicky gadget for the meatheads

frosty sedge
#

Hm. I wonder if it would have worked better or worse for me if I hadn't seen it in the trailer.
My personal explanation is a ridiculously powerful flight assist from the droid that calculates the correct spinning speed to actually hit something - I don't think Luthen did the simultaneous flying and turret-shooting unassisted either.

maiden sable
#

unless you strafe a capital ship.. but then how powerful of a beam is it? whats the range? its kinda like one of those things that you arent meant to think about

#

which is essentially star wars in a nutshell tbf lol

fleet plaza
#

Their guns make noise in space

#

It's all based on what feels right, not what makes sense

kindred otter
#

Something something the beam is internally unstable and collapses in on itself after it exists for a certain time period (as in, gets too ‘far’ from the ship) or when in atmosphere

#

Or some other vague pseudo scientific explanation

#

Just wait for the visual dictionary :p

fleet plaza
#

Wait, why is that a worry when we see thousands of missed shots in space across the movies and shows

tough quartz
#

It's a particle beam, not coherent light. It's just going to lose cohesion and evaporate into the void after a few thousand kms, which is why half of ep8 consisted of a chase scene waiting for the resistance ships to come into range of the FO's guns

#

Similarly the energy streams from the fondor are only going to be a few hundred meters long at most as the trade off cor being a single stream instead of packets

clear trail
#

Yeah, sorry - but I think this is pretty questionable/strange alien design.
I wonder what's going on here... considering how well thought out the show is.

unknown.png
#

wookieepedia just lists him as 'alien'

mystic minnow
mystic minnow
solid jasper
#

Don't you mean Alien (Bri'ish, innit?)

tough quartz
#

He looks kinda japanese field labourer to me, as a call out to the franchise's roots

fleet plaza
#

he fits right in

ancient kettle
frosty sedge
#

It's awesome.

fleet plaza
#

the voice-over sent me right back to my childhood

#

watching various vehicle-based vigilantes

pure bone
#

The best thing about the constant Disney content coming out is it gives Auralnauts more material to work with.

fleet plaza
#

this is it, this is the evidence we need

Tony Gilroy is dril

#

there is just too much overlap to be coincidental

pure bone
#

I'm going to regret asking this, but what's a dril?

fleet plaza
#

the wisdom of humanity

#

But also, a person tweeting funny

viscid wagon
fleet plaza
#

Right?

mystic minnow
#

i think this one is my favourite lmao

image.png
#

its so him

fleet plaza
#

How to even choose