Power Creep Drives Old Players Away

[random radish]

Power creep, I think most people don't like it. From big gacha spenders to f2p. Both groups view this as their money/time spent previously being invalidated. And who wants to spend more anyways when it's just going to get power crept in a few years? And we're not talking about your standard MMO power creep anyways, it's like on another level and that combined with the price tag/time investment to get back to that, it's very discouraging for many. Just some thoughts, and also an article related to this idea: https://www.gamesradar.com/games/mmo/how-did-the-most-timeless-mmo-hit-a-new-peak-of-240-000-players-12-years-after-launch-protecting-peoples-achievements-and-progression-while-preventing-fomo/

[ripe lava]

I mean, mabinogi is an og always scaling game for alot of people.... power creep is inevitable when every skill you level gives you power? Mabinogi at its core is a power fantasy game on the combat side and has always been.

Power creep isn't inherently bad. People like getting stronger and putting more effort into a character to get stronger. Look at maplestory, despite insanely bad monetization and predatory systems people seem to love it considering how successful it remains 20 years later... and we aren't even touching the toes of its power creep.

Like, I think I would have left off if I was stuck doing the same smash with the same smash damage I did in chapter 3.

[sleek halo]

I'm from 2008 and fireball and thunder are STILL useful so I don't feel like my old kit was powercrept.

[sleek trout]

Hi, I'm one of those older players that actually came back to Mabi for the summer events, and I'm shockingly still here several months later instead of poofing back into the soul stream for indefinite amount of time like for the last five years.

Why? Part of it is having made some progress toward better gear in that time (more progress than the intermittent logins of a couple weeks), which is a point that I've struggled with a lot because the prices on everything seem like an insurmountable wall 90% of the time. But it's also the nostalgia factor and finding a group of folks I vibe with after mostly being a lone li'l derpy fox elf a majority of the time.

And also my love of being a healer and actually feeling like my archery (which had been my main focus for the first five years I played - 2015 to 2020) finally got somewhere when I had finally given AS a try.

Do I like that some of the best stuff is locked behind RNG paywall? Not the slightest and I wish Nexon had never started that trend way back. It should have remained purely cosmetic. But anyway, that's my thoughts on the matter.

Oh, also going to add a big example here. FFXIV is more or less basically "powercrept" every patch with new, higher ilvl gear either through crafting or raiding. So....

[craggy remnant]

None of the new gach power creep isn't needed as none of it is available in KR and the game isn't balanced around it. You're also not restricted from doing content if you don't have it. Things get power crept over time but that happens in every game. If I have to replace one piece because of power creep my time isn't "wasted" I used that piece to make a lot of gold. And I can sell it to someone who didn't want to buy the shiny new power creep on release but is willing to buy when it's cheaper or on a rerun.

Personally I buy VIP for the year and sometimes a stack of pet gach. But I spend less on this game than I would a subscription on a pay to play game like RS.

As someone who has played since the release of iria and quit because of original reforges and terrible progression the game is, while not perfect orders of magnitude better. The power creep just makes me grind so I can afford it.

[ripe lava]

Also want to add, it would require a really insane overhaul to the game to make anything meaningful without power creep/chasing more power. THey would have to rehaul their entire monetization since if you aren't grinding for power it'd have to be fashion, well if its fashion how do you deal with fact all fashion is paid for? How do you make content worth running just gold? but gold for what? fashion that comes from gacha?

[faint quarry]

You can still make and release the power creep items, but have them ingame obtainable like Drobe, you would still spend gold on making things, or buying a Title voucher off ah that drops from some boss instead of gacha.
The gacha are already mostly fashion anyway, so it would just be moving items which have ingame stats/set bonuses to being rewards for playing the game.
I feel like it would add a good reason to actually run content if when a new gacha was released the cool special versions that have the stats were in a rotating pool of boss/dungeon drops as well as being in the gacha, if people just want to whale to get them then they can do that
If people want to actually play the game and get a valuable reward then they can run content.
A pitty system like Crom has would work great for that, so if you did all your weeklies you can use the coin to get the thing you wanted.
Now to not break/change the economy too drastically they can make the ingame obtainable ones non-tradeable or something.

[grave pine]

Power creep from gacha is irreverent
How many do you see running around with c/h and e/s clearing content or requiring Hyperion as their main armor
Bards can still reach 65~70% hauntings with f2p gear with the right reforges
Are you including reforges into powercreep also?

What separates most players from lategame and midgame and soloing is the huge gap between farming your next tiered weapon
People who spend real money and make gold just to skip the slow month long grinding which veterans already done through many years
There is no stronger powercreep that doesnt compare from being poor and undergeared
Everyone just doesnt like how long it takes to get geared

[mighty ermine]

The "creep" part of "Power Creep" is what drives people away, not the actual power it brings. The Creep is built around being horrifically slow and thats not really down to events and gacha, but just the design of content and [cough wheeze] limits.
But then again, the creep is part of the game, and some people enjoy that progress. (Because even if it's slow, it's still progress.)

[sleek halo]

Usually when people whine about power creep though (not sayign OP is whining, just in general) what theyre usually saying is "The things I achieved early on don't matter as much as the newer opportunities being presented to me," which I think in the case of mabinogi is kinda impossible.

Like everything you do builds on the previous things, and older skills are still very relevant. At best one could argue that your new gear will always outclass the old gear, or new enchants will outclass the old -- and it's a shame that power creep does exist and is tied so intimately with gachas.

[lavish ember]

Mabinogi can definitely be grindy but honestly as a long time player (joined in closed beta) if that was enough to drive me away completely, I wouldn't still be here yknow? Mabi was kinda always like that and honestly now that reforges are WAYYYY more accessible, Blaanid quests and gear, support chain blade and armors, etc., it doesn't feel as harsh as it used to. Honestly this is the most I've ever loved playing the game, I've taken several hiatuses before but I don't think there will be another one for a long time now.

Throw in the recent events we just had and it helped me level up all my problem skills. Not only that but I got 2 people who are completely new to this game to play and they're getting close enough to my level that we can actually do a lot of content together, which smoothens out the grind a lot.

A lot of skills I learned 10+ years ago are also still relevant and I kinda love that.

[craggy remnant]

100% this. It cost me over 600-700m to make my original demo bow and arrow. As long as you actually use the gear you get to farm, it more than pays for itself by the time there is a better option. That's what is appealing about mmos at least to me.

[odd garnet]

If you don't play for a few years and come back you shouldn't expect your gear to still be the best there is.

There are plenty of catchup mechanics already- master plan is a huge one. Endgame players barely benefit from master plan aside from having extra runs. I was able to get 3 alts to arcana 250 last master plan without playing much at all just because of flying high.

They gave everyone a free perseus scythe and a free other perseus of your choosing. Leprechaun event outright has a chance to give you a Nb or Percy, with chance for erg. You can pity your way into glenn gear too if you play consistently.

Most of the time an irusan calendar is going on too, meaning you get a step 6 stone just for logging in.

How much more should we cater to people who don't even want to play the game?

[wary meteor]

from skimming the article that OP posted, it seems like OSRS just has a different & better way of managing power creep, and dealing with FOMO. would have to hear from an experienced OSRS player, but from what i can gather from the article, they make players feel like their time is continuously valued, past or present.

one of the other threads mentioned mabi's problem of using events as a means of providing catch-up opps, rather than having a permanent solution, which is what OSRS seems to be doing a better job of.

mabi isn't an "easy" game per se, there exists learning curves & information overloads, it's sort of not really newbie/casual friendly, and it still has that oldschool mmo grindy flavour. but new rise should alleviate a lot of that methinks.

[supple moat]

There's an awful lot of "but i'm still here" without any consideration to all the people that aren't. Remember there used to be 4 servers of people.

Makes me wonder how many people had to take a break and then came back to find themselves doing way less damage because of a talent tweak, some gear they had just finished or nearly finished before they left is suddenly worthless or vastly underpowered compared to something that is or was free, some other task they spent a great deal of time and effort to accomplish is now just handed out for free or the game lets every new character skip. Just imagine how it feels for those people that, every time the have to break and come back, they are weak compared to what they worked up to be able to do the last time around, and they get events requiring them to do things that are out of reach because of the creeping expectation of power, in addition to everyone they talk to saying "it's easy, but that's nothing, but we just blow through that, but that's super cheap, those weapons are garbage/cheap/worthless, you should really get some gear," etc.

That's the kind of power creep scenario that can make people not come back.

Sure, there are "catchup" events, which are missable; free boost weapons, which are missable; but those same things, by being missed, would also make people just not want to come back. If you build too much around FOMO, then a lot of the people who did miss out just feel bad when they come back and learn about it and stay away.

Kind of the big difference with runescape is you are pretty much always exactly where you were when you left. If you didn't have the level to equip something before, you still don't. If new gear was released, it's released at a high level requirement, and the gear at every stage remains relevant because of the level requirements. Aside from a double exp event or maybe cosmetic event items, I can't think of a situation anyone felt bad about missing something when they came back.

[jagged mural]

I think the ecosystem Mabinogi survives on is power creep, and that's not a negative. Soul Liberator weapons, drobe, and enchants as chase items drive players to continue playing while being entirely unnecessary to play the majority of the content. I think we need, and for the most part want, the power creep.

To the point that it feels bad if you leave for some time and come back... That is a feature, not a flaw, in the design. The design is intended to encourage you to stay active and involved more by softly moving the floor up over time as the ceiling gets higher. They simultaneously will shorten the time it takes to reach the new floor, as we've seen with the recent master plan and other events (as well as changes coming in New Rise which I won't spoil here). It still feels bad to come back and everything you worked for being, to varying degrees, irrelevant. That negative reinforcement coupled with a clear and accessible path back to relevance in the shortest time possible completes the loop. You could view this with a nihilist perspective because progress you make now won't ultimately matter later, but tbh the point of playing a game is to enjoy an activity of little consequence in the first place. It doesn't matter if it matters, it only matters if you were entertained or intrigued by the process.

The soft raising of the floor, the increase of access to the floor, and the high ceiling regularly being raised primarily creates frustration only when you approach the ceiling (which should be the hard part, maybe just not as hard). I think, big picture, Mabinogi handles creep relatively well with some room for improvements.

For example, gacha only enchants and armors ought to be released as event rewards, craftable items, or dungeon drops after some time has passed so these items remain obtainable and can trickle their way into the economy. That this hasn't happened outside of Tara Auction is a little disturbing.

For contrast, an example of positive power creep is the Arcana Achievement Mission. I also think Bri Leith and Primeval Winter are overall healthy and welcome additions to the top end.

[manic mortar]

Power creep is never the issue, but how obtainable it is.

[modern loom]

It's definitely the obtainability of the power that's usually the issue as literally all games have some kind of power creep. My personal opinion and rule of thumb is that anything that isn't best in a slot should take 1 month of playing 2 hours a day. Since mabinogi has 9 equipment slots for now that's 9 months of gathering equipment then add in different talents and then add in a few different upgrades plus attempting min maxed rolls for crafting. That's a lot and as soon as they start specializing in armor for arcanas that's 6 currently armor sets more when they add more arcanas.