serious-discussion

[latent forge]

the name is pretentious

[crystal stone]

Not to mention doesn't that establish more elitism by saying "These kids will help the poor dumb kids"

[neat lintel]

This is just silly. Students are there to learn, not teach; teaching is the teachers job (a revolutionary concept, I know).

[velvet dagger]

Texas actually didn't like gifted education in elementary school

While NY was fine with it

[latent forge]

this is only case where renaming is better

[vivid halo]

then you don't know what you're talking about

[azure kettle]

I mean I agree with removing the gifted program in Ontario at least, only way to get in it is some psuedo science-y psychology tests and shit in grade 3 (at least that's how it was when I was in school)

idk how it's done elsewhere

[velvet dagger]

I mean

[sleek wing]

nG spiting nothing but facts today

[velvet dagger]

The solution isn't get rid of it

[latent forge]

not that it needs to be removed, but obscured

[vivid halo]

the program was specifically for kids like me who were completely underserved by public schools and needed better instruction

[neat lintel]

Probably best to make better selection systems rather than to abolish it

[crystal stone]

I think there are a lot of real issues with gifted/honors program and the burn out, but I don't think the solution was to axe it altogether. I'm confident that people can resolve these social issues without resorting to "Let's just throw it out"

[cold needle]

obscured?

[velvet dagger]

The solution is have a better way of sorting

[light needle]

I feel that nag

NG

Like he was a waste of time for me

Hs

[crystal stone]

So basically if I don't get what I want in life, I'd do my PhD in Math Education doing research on exactly this topic

[azure kettle]

I mean ya, if there was a better way to get in, I'd agree, but also I think the gifted program as a whole is flawed, I'd rather there be ways for students to get ahead in specific streams

[crystal stone]

Since it's something I do care about, and I'm good at

[azure kettle]

rather than a general gifted program

[velvet dagger]

Like gifted per subject?

[azure kettle]

ya

[sleek wing]

An undereducated population is easier for the government to control just saying 🥴

[latent forge]

yes i also benefitted from gifted program in NY but it always felt pretentious to state it. i felt like they should just name classes 1 and 2 or a and b without students knowing one has accelerated learning. to keep students humbled

[velvet dagger]

Hmm...

[crystal stone]

well, that's assuming that it's optimal for government to control the population in the US

[sick burrow]

Liberals will support AOC but not use the well-ordering theorem

[azure kettle]

gifted per subject is closer to what I think would be better than what I've seen currently exists

[vivid halo]

the two criteria for applying for this program is 1) cognitive testing and 2) evidence that being in an underserving public school is actively harming the child

[neat lintel]

It seems their new system is incapable of pushing the gifted, helping those who need it, or inspiring the rest of the crowd. Everyone is worse, how wonderful

[vivid halo]

this is completely reasonable

[latent forge]

i agree

[crystal stone]

But if you look at the US governmental structure it's clearly designed to be as inefficient as humanly possible

[light needle]

I never benefited from anything in hs sad, I was mostly miserable in the classes and such

[velvet dagger]

Poros I think logistics starts to become a difficulty in implementing that

[crystal stone]

So it's not an optimal solution to keep people undereducated. It's more optimal to educate people in our system

[neat lintel]

An undereducated population believes that the government puts microchips in vaccines

[sick burrow]

I think the best way to fix the US education system is to burn the entire fucking thing down

[velvet dagger]

But yeah so

[sleek wing]

True true

[velvet dagger]

I was in this weird situation where

[latent forge]

i dont know if thats a vocal minority or not

[sick burrow]

With litetal torches and fire

[velvet dagger]

I was in NY for a while

And I was in the "AP1 program" from first to third grade

The way NY does it is

Or at least my area of NY

[crystal stone]

I've seen some fallouts of the education system in NY. Philip Uri Treisman at UT Austin has an excerpt from a book on his experience in NY

[velvet dagger]

You have Delta, AP1, AP2, regular

[neat lintel]

I respect this in part, as the federal government was designed to have much less power than it does today
We’ve mutated it into something it was not intended to be, for better or for worse

[crystal stone]

About not getting into the honors class, getting picked on

[velvet dagger]

Delta you have to test into, AP1 and AP2 are on basis of what your kindergarten teacher rec

[sick burrow]

Ok but I missed the context for this conversation. Someone is getting rid of something now?

[latent forge]

they often arent

[light needle]

I mean the teacher can be racially biased and such might also be a problem

[crystal stone]

This is actually interesting, kindergarten teachers are actually very good at spotting disabilities, social ineptitudes, and other disorders. Much better than parents

[latent forge]

usually people in the accelerated classes keep up

even in 1st grade

[vivid halo]

liberal states like Oregon and California and Washington are lobbying to remove mathematics standards at the K-12 level based on some braindead notion that high standards create inequality

[latent forge]

my aunt teaches in harlem and she tells me all about it

[sick burrow]

What standards?

[crystal stone]

I run an academic support center at a historically black college, and I've yet to hear about how we need to lower standards

[vivid halo]

e.g. needing to show proficiency with basic math curriculum by the end of high school

[vivid halo]

exactly, this is all just white liberal bullshit for the most part

[crystal stone]

The question is always how do we get students to rise to expectations and challenges

[light needle]

I have never met anyone who believed this except dumb highschoolers

[vivid halo]

that's moronic and you should feel bad for posting this

[neat lintel]

School is also about social development, not just academic

[sleek wing]

It does piss me off when a bunch of rich fucks “speak for the poor”

[latent forge]

tbh i feel like some students would benefit from having more one on one time

[crystal stone]

Imagine you're 10 years old learning with 6 year olds

[latent forge]

but logistically not possible

[sleek wing]

All students would

[latent forge]

i think thats ideal

having groups is harder to manage

[neat lintel]

“This is a fine system.”
“Oh, you can’t understand why it’s so bad for you! Don’t you worry, we’ll speak for you and ‘fix’ it all up”

[sleek wing]

This

So much this

[latent forge]

not really true

you need guidance for topics

[neat lintel]

I absolutely learn better by myself

[latent forge]

you cant learn in complete isolation

thats why people have books

[sleek wing]

I self taught myself composing and audio production so THATS bullshit!

[latent forge]

you can learn in isolation but not as quick unless you had books

[sleek wing]

Holy based

[neat lintel]

Well, obviously you need a source to learn from
However, school was very important to make sure I grew socially in a healthy manner

[latent forge]

i dont remember middleschool and HS

and im only 2 years out

[neat lintel]

Yeah, lol
I remember calculating Christoffel symbols in my Spanish I class

[latent forge]

i didnt struggle with learning anything in school until uni

[sleek wing]

Early onset Alzheimer’s moment

[latent forge]

😓

[eager trout]

[neat lintel]

That’s incredibly impressive, bravo

[light needle]

Most of highschool was genuinely just waste of time for me and it made me pretty depressed

Hey whoever

[eager trout]

High school was shit

College better but still too many requirements

And hi johndegen

[sleek wing]

Agreed HS was a complete waste of time and made me want to neck myself

[latent forge]

I had math 8 and algebra at the same time in middle school which was the most assinine thing ive ever went through. They made a small group of us take algebra an hour after school so we left later than everyone

[eager trout]

I have to take 10 classes for different requirements

[light needle]

Nice lol

[latent forge]

and then they budget cut algebra when i left

[crystal stone]

Alrighty the interesting part of the convo is gone

[light needle]

Did all humanities by ap gang

[crystal stone]

I gotta make some lunch

C'ya

[sick burrow]

Bruh what is this law

[neat lintel]

sorry, my bad

@vivid halo you have good takes

[sick burrow]

Grouping everyone in the same math class until 11th grade?

[latent forge]

wait where

[sick burrow]

That's actually -1head

[vivid halo]

hard not to when you're always right

[light needle]

Oh yeah? Prove RH then

[sick burrow]

Not even 0head suffices to capture the stupidity of that

[vivid halo]

how so?

[latent forge]

what law faye?

[cold needle]

0head

[sick burrow]

I was reading an article

[vivid halo]

it's really not

[light needle]

Where’s the proof thonk

[sick burrow]

I just looked this up

[vivid halo]

I mean functionally there are no year limits until you get to some cutoff point

[sick burrow]

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-05-20/california-controversial-math-overhaul-focuses-on-equity

[vivid halo]

that cutoff point is functionally the limit

[vivid halo]

you cannot do away with these cutoff points vis a vis requiring people to show a certain level of proficiency before graduating

[latent forge]

wtf

[vivid halo]

if you do, you are lowing standards, plain and simple

[latent forge]

this is low iq

[sleek wing]

It’s works for PhDs not 1 2 3s you know what I’m saying

[vivid halo]

I'm talking about requiring passing certain coursework e.g. by the time you graduate high school

people are explicitly trying to do away with this

[sick burrow]

Opponents don’t see it that way, especially because the proposed guidance recommends doing away with the tracking of students, suggesting instead that students of all backgrounds and readiness should be grouped together in math classes through 10th grade.

[latent forge]

if i was i K-12 id really hate school

[vivid halo]

this is what I am taking issue with

[neat lintel]

Like, you have to take Algebra II

Right now, at least

[sick burrow]

What is this bullshit

[neat lintel]

People want to get rid of that

[latent forge]

why isnt this hotfixxed?

education balance team is mentally ill

[vivid halo]

this is completely separate to the point I'm making

I literally just said

the particular thing I am taking issue with

[neat lintel]

nGroupoid is saying that you should have to be able to pass things like Algebra II to graduate

[sick burrow]

All this does is create another inequity where the gifted rich kids can afford private school where they can thrive and the gifted poor kids just get fucked by being forced to take low level classes

[latent forge]

yes clearly

[neat lintel]

Pretty much

[sick burrow]

Like how does anyone not see this

[latent forge]

is this the beginning of the end

[vivid halo]

this is EXACTLY THE POINT, people are suggesting to just do away with those exams and standards in the first place

[light needle]

It’s rich white liberals who don’t understand that concept Faye who are proposing this

[neat lintel]

No, their goal is to nuke the exams

[latent forge]

not to be decios advocate

but what if we are biased

[neat lintel]

We’re talking about liberal lawmakers in certain American states

[latent forge]

🤔

what if there is a legitimate reason not stated in the article

[light needle]

Biased towards what??

[vivid halo]

Yohan I think we're arguing two completely orthogonal points

[sick burrow]

Is this bill like being secretly funded by racists trying to use liberal language to pass laws to keep gifted black kids down

[light needle]

This is a stupid argument 9, if there’s a reason state it

[sick burrow]

Or are people just this stupid

[latent forge]

what if the article was written to make people fired up

[blazing pawn]

Does anyone else have a strong suspicion this is going to further the gap between wealthy students in educationally stronger environments and most other people lol

[light needle]

I don’t need some non existent arguement to change my mind

[sick burrow]

Yeah that's what I just said

[vivid halo]

okay then why were you so sure that you "proved me wrong"

lol

anyways

okay buddy

[latent forge]

this cant be a popular opinion though

like surely majority of people are against this

[sick burrow]

Maybe the article is just wrong

[neat lintel]

Yohan is saying that gifted kids shouldn’t be limited by the rigid structure of schools, and be allowed to move into more advanced areas more quickly
nGroupoid says that schools shouldn’t abolish basic requirements to graduate (like Alg II)
Two completely different convos

[vivid halo]

you have yet to demonstrate this, so far you're just stating your opinion and claiming this as victory

[blazing pawn]

Is the point of this just to make more people get their diplomas?

[vivid halo]

yes

[blazing pawn]

[sick burrow]

Honestly probably just this yeah

[neat lintel]

Yep. Just shove kids through, even if they don’t understand, so that schools get more money

[sick burrow]

Probably it just looks better for the schools and the state if more people pass

[blazing pawn]

I guess thats kind of necessary considering how essential diplomas are to most people but if you aren't actually teaching them the material any better and just pushing them out the door thats uh...

[light needle]

This is cooking the numbers, more students pass more money for school districts

[neat lintel]

I live in bloody Kentucky, and my school district is abolishing failing and pushing kids through
God help California

[blazing pawn]

Thisi s the real answer

[latent forge]

i think this is just power creep

you are on to something moth

[vivid halo]

no, you demonstrated that you completely misunderstood what I was arguing against in the first place

[latent forge]

eventually people will gret BAs in 12th grade

[blazing pawn]

Every year or couple years state edu depts are required to publish reports on how they are doing and no one wants to be in the position of saying "sorry things are shit" every year

[neat lintel]

Eventually people won’t be able to do prealgebra in 12th grade

[vivid halo]

okay buddy whatever

[blazing pawn]

And if things arent improving it has questionable implications for the people in charge so

[light needle]

Yeah this is probably more office politics then we might realize ig

[neat lintel]

Instead of fixing education, let’s eliminate it so that we look good
What a brilliant idea

[latent forge]

it is a good idea

for them

not for society

[vivid halo]

right so there are office politics incentives to doing this but it's ultimately justified using completely braindead liberal ideals about equality of outcome

the entire justification for trying to do away with AP courses is that this creates inequality of outcome

[light needle]

I hate libs

[sick burrow]

Do any liberals seriously support equality of outcome

[latent forge]

no

[blazing pawn]

This is why every educational chancellor and major education lawmaker in NYC has been talking about making "huge changes" for the past like 5 decades

[leaden torrent]

isnt equality of outcome like

[light needle]

Tbh I think there are some valid arguments against AP

[leaden torrent]

straight up in violation of liberal principles

[light needle]

But the lib one is stupid

[neat lintel]

Instead of providing equality of opportunity, they want “equity”

[sick burrow]

Or is this just a rightwing strawman of the left

[latent forge]

wtf that mean

[vivid halo]

yes, but a lot of liberals (read: largely democrats that have coopted leftist ideas without understanding the consequences) are pushing for this

[odd narwhal]

This

[light needle]

Liberals don’t have principles, they wanna look woke without understanding underlying issues or really even doing anything

[vivid halo]

yea pretty much

[blazing pawn]

Theoretically some education reformers do seem to be pushing for something like this but also a lot of it is people with office agendas capitalizing off of mass frustration with education inequality

[light needle]

Liberals are not leftists

[neat lintel]

eh, that’s a bit ad hominem chief

[light needle]

Liberals would be right winged in most other countries other than America

[sick burrow]

I mean "liberals want everyone to have the exact same amout of money and power always regardless of effort" is a thing the right loves to say to get people on their side

[blazing pawn]

No political movement has principles

[light needle]

No this is p much all neoliberals

[wild lantern]

"<People I disagree with> don't have principles"

[vivid halo]

so there are the actual leftists who are pushing for equality of outcome for more nefarious political reasons, there are liberals who are also pushing for it because they have coopted it under the guise of helping marginalized groups without actually understanding that this does the opposite

[odd narwhal]

I prefer retroliberals

[light needle]

Liberals usually refer to neoliberals

[vivid halo]

liberals who are useful idiots for these kinds of policies literally do not have principles

[neat lintel]

Bit of a Machiavellian outlook, but probably approximately correct

[leaden torrent]

where is liberalism actually right wing

[blazing pawn]

Its not really machiavellian its just like

[leaden torrent]

thats a commonly repeated talking point but like

in europe, the most liberal parties tend to be described as centrist

[vivid halo]

in the US, weakly speaking

[leaden torrent]

if not centre-left

[blazing pawn]

if you spend any amount of time looking at political communities

of any flavor

[neat lintel]

Classical liberalism has some things that would be considered economically right nowadays, if memory serves

[leaden torrent]

i mean sure

but we're not talking economics

are we?

[vivid halo]

not necessarily

[blazing pawn]

You will realize immediately that they are filled with grifters, people latching on to a movement for a sense of community, etc

[leaden torrent]

if you look at something like immigration laws, most right wing parties in europe are illiberal immigration-wise

[blazing pawn]

There is no major political movement that is "pure"

[latent forge]

ill hard agree

[blazing pawn]

And there never has been

[latent forge]

my roomate is a prime example

[vivid halo]

I mean every major political party in the US, both left and right wing, is largely right wing when it comes to economic policy when compared to the rest of the civilized world

[leaden torrent]

is this supposed to be groundbreaking moth

[odd narwhal]

Your roommate is a large political movement?

[neat lintel]

There are precisely two major political parties

[wild lantern]

Politics are just a trap meant to distract you from math.

[vivid halo]

in terms of social policy, it's more complicated

[leaden torrent]

i think aiming for purity is a bad thing anyway

its the motivation for 99% of twitter leftist infighting

stupid purity testing

[blazing pawn]

No I'm just responding to the claim that liberals dont have any principles

Like true but functionally no major movement does

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[light needle]

Yeah fair ig

[vivid halo]

yes liberals (derogatory) do not have principles

[odd narwhal]

No one is talking about economic policy when referring to 'right' or 'left' these days

[vivid halo]

classical liberals have principles sure

[neat lintel]

It’s usually social business, yes

[vivid halo]

I would not consider most neolibs in the US to be classical liberals in this sense

[neat lintel]

Anyways, we are moving into territory where I have no informed opinion (if I ever did at all during this convo)

[leaden torrent]

well a shitton of people corroborate the phrase "classical liberal" as well

er

corroborate is the wrong word

[blazing pawn]

No the motivation is bored people with clout grifting or seeking attention or both

[leaden torrent]

what word am i thinking of

[vivid halo]

coopt

[leaden torrent]

appropriate

coopt

sure

[light needle]

Dave Rubin moment

[blazing pawn]

No one actually cares about purity

[neat lintel]

Twitter

[leaden torrent]

moth idk about that

i mean like

[vivid halo]

Heinrich Himmler moment

[leaden torrent]

im sure a lot is STARTED by attention seeking

[blazing pawn]

All of these people are friends with people with radically different political ideologies

[neat lintel]

I read once that Twitter is an app seemingly custom-build for maximum wild idiocy

[leaden torrent]

but the reason people dont like

call out that behaviour

for what it is

is because they want to be seen as part of the "in group"

[neat lintel]

Well. I’ll remain silent nevertheless

[latent forge]

yes it is

its also very good resource

[vivid halo]

unlike you!

[leaden torrent]

who uses social justice terminology they learned from 2013 tumblr to criticize anything they personally dislike regardless of how oppressive it actually is

[blazing pawn]

I mean part of it but its also a thin psychological justification for framing schadenfreude as righteous

[leaden torrent]

i mean its similar to libertarianism i think

[blazing pawn]

The actual specifics of the politics barely matter

[leaden torrent]

libertarianism is stupid but in the abstract, it has principles

i disagree with the motivation behind them

and no one actually follows these principles

but they do exist

[blazing pawn]

Most of the ppl who rally for leftist purity are totally fine with "impure" ideologies 99% of the time

[latent forge]

what are examples of this besides education one we were talking about

[vivid halo]

yea I mean nobody actually follows all of these principles in the absolute lest they end up in "what if the child consents" land

[leaden torrent]

i mean thats the thing

or just hating taxes in the abstract

despite taxation sometimes being a mechanism for fair pricing

[vivid halo]

okay but that's based

[leaden torrent]

(e.g. in carbon)

[neat lintel]

Voting is hard here
I just want to support folks with moral decency who want to help the poor genuinely

[leaden torrent]

i think most people enter politics with good intentions

[neat lintel]

hate it here

[leaden torrent]

it just doesnt last

[vivid halo]

thinking about this post

how it started: https://twitter.com/briebriejoy/status/1428770764623339520

Briahna Joy Gray (@briebriejoy)

Rest assured, I’ll never own a home. 🥲

Retweets

169

Likes

3719

Twitter · Aug 20, 2021, 5:27 PM

how it's going: https://twitter.com/HandsomeRecluse/status/1428773276722114563

Young Kurtz (@HandsomeRecluse)

@briebriejoy

Likes

518

Twitter · Aug 20, 2021, 5:37 PM

[light needle]

Oof

[blazing pawn]

Guys i swear im not rich 😔 im hip and middle class like everyone else 😔

[leaden torrent]

whats with certain leftists targeting the middle class anyway

arent they the petty bourgeoisie

[vivid halo]

ben fucking thrown under the bus

[latent forge]

namington can you give an example?

besides education

[leaden torrent]

i just did

opposing carbon taxes

[vivid halo]

I can't afford a house because I have to pay my darn employees a darn salary

[leaden torrent]

supporting zoning laws

that kinda thing

[latent forge]

ok

what type of zoning laws

[neat lintel]

I hate the general trend from both sides to push for division between wide groups of people
I know why they’re doing it, it’s easy to stir up emotions to get votes
It’s doing a boatload of harm, though

[leaden torrent]

any at all that go against market behaviour

[vivid halo]

insane zoning laws are literally the main thing that fucked up San Francisco as a city

[blazing pawn]

I firmly do not believe the majority of twitter leftists could define this term

[leaden torrent]

besides those meant to account for minor externalities

like noise

[latent forge]

noise is big no?

[leaden torrent]

shit like minimum parking laws is explicitly anti-libertarian

yet many support them because "muh home value"

[blazing pawn]

But also not everyone in the middle class is petite bourgeoisie

[light needle]

Which is funny bc of how similar democrats and@republicans are lol

[blazing pawn]

Brie would be tho

[wild lantern]

dempublicans

[blazing pawn]

What is her last name

Oh gray

[wild lantern]

Republocrats

[blazing pawn]

No the one we are talking about now

[latent forge]

are minimum parking laws zoning laws meant to reduce parking zones?

[vivid halo]

proletariate: everyone exactly at below my income
petite bourgeoisie: everyone exactly above it that isn't above a completely arbitrary threshold I have set in my mind
bourgeoisie: my grandparents

[blazing pawn]

honestly i just looked at the twitter tag

True!

Petite bourgeois as a term is not used much in marx tbh

[neat lintel]

Apparently, Portland is a nightmare now
Instead of helping the homeless, they’ve just done lip-service by just removing laws
Poop on the streets, tent cities everywhere
It’s just hurting everyone, and I can’t do a thing to help

[vivid halo]

yea Portland is a literal shithole now

because of these policies

I watched it collapse within about a decade of living there

[latent forge]

interesting

[neat lintel]

I enjoy how Bernie Sanders, when he became a millionaire, immediately went from decrying millionaires and billionaires to just billionaires

[vivid halo]

because people are too "nice" to clear out the homeless

[latent forge]

i thought oregon was cool

[vivid halo]

it kinda sucks now lol

[wild lantern]

Does clearing out the homeless actually solve the problem?

[latent forge]

i was thinking about going to reed college

[modest rune]

(giving them housing does)

[vivid halo]

no, but it's also no excuse to just let it fester

[wild lantern]

Seems like it just moves the problem around?

[vivid halo]

they need actual affordable housing

[wild lantern]

Yah true.

[modest rune]

(its less expensive to just give them free housing than to conitnue current policies)

[latent forge]

some cities have budgets to fix homelessness

so its not unrealistic

[modest rune]

no

[vivid halo]

I mean like, they instituted a policy of giving out free clean needles to drug addicts with the purpose of harm reduction; can you guess what HARD TO PREDICT externality this has had in the last five years?

[modest rune]

some are

[neat lintel]

No, that’s about $110,000 at minimum (and even that’s generous)

[modest rune]

you can live in places other than SF

in america

[neat lintel]

It’s a lot cheaper to live elsewhere

[blazing pawn]

something like 65% of americans own homes

[odd narwhal]

Needle shortage

[blazing pawn]

65% of americans are not millionaires

[latent forge]

housing bubble inc

[vivid halo]

no, there are just loads and loads of dirty needles on the streets now

go fucking figure

[odd narwhal]

It was joke

[blazing pawn]

Based

[vivid halo]

one of SF's largest problem is zoning laws and a huge activist core that pushes against literally any and all construction of affordable housing because of some insane fear of gentrification and destruction of """historical neighborhoods"""

let the historical neighborhoods be dismantled

[neat lintel]

Ah, I missed Starbucks’s burnt coffee

[light needle]

Historical neighborhood lolol

[blazing pawn]

wow it would be such a shame if san francisco, bastion of the lower classes, was gentrified

[light needle]

This is such a white liberal thing to do, historical neighbothood

[blazing pawn]

thank god that hasnt happened yet

[velvet dagger]

Are we just dunking on California? 😛

[neat lintel]

I hope these policies don’t come a creepin’ over here

[neat lintel]

Oregon too

[vivid halo]

yes

[velvet dagger]

Oregon is just discount California

So like same thing

[wild lantern]

Old californians migrate to oregon more now I think.

[vivid halo]

Portland doesn't even have stand your ground laws which is the worst part

[wild lantern]

It's like retirement home CA

[neat lintel]

I’ve not heard of these, what’s this?

[light needle]

Thonk stand you ground laws, why would you want that

[vivid halo]

stand your ground means if someone breaks into your house you can shoot them

[wild lantern]

Lol

[velvet dagger]

Hegel be ready

[light needle]

Basically gives you the right to stand your ground and shoot your attacker

[velvet dagger]

We need to be on guard with where this conversation may lead

[neat lintel]

well, I’m not moving to Oregon, I guess

[vivid halo]

yea like

there are a few states that have utterly disgraceful laws about this

[velvet dagger]

So wait what's Oregon's shtick?

[vivid halo]

Massachussets iirc is a "duty to retreat" state

[velvet dagger]

What

[vivid halo]

meaning if someone breaks into your house, you have a duty to leave or hide in your house

[wild lantern]

If a strange man comes into my home trying to talk to me about rejecting the axiom of choice I ought to have the right to defend myself.

[light needle]

Yeah the house thing is,kinda bad

[vivid halo]

if you try to fight back you can pretty easily get charged with assault or manslaughter

[latent forge]

ur srs?

[light needle]

But anywhere outside ur house I kinda agree don’t shoot someone cause stand ur ground

[vivid halo]

because burglars rights are so important I guess

yes lol

[latent forge]

thats cringe and bluepilled

[velvet dagger]

I think stand your ground laws are specifically about homes no?

[vivid halo]

12 states impose a duty to retreat when one can do so with absolute safety: Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, and Wisconsin.

[velvet dagger]

Is there a variant for something else?

[blazing pawn]

Standing your ground is almost never a good idea tbh

For your own safety

[light needle]

I mean I mostly remember when ppl used it outside of home

[latent forge]

i agree

[vivid halo]

it's generally not a good idea, but you should be allowed to do it

[blazing pawn]

Like even if you dont care about whether the bugler dies

[nimble shuttle]

bugler

[wild lantern]

Bugle players aren't people

[vivid halo]

toot toot
BANG BANG

[limber perch]

I care if the bugler dies

[blazing pawn]

Its a really easy way to escalate the situation and end up with someone (possibly you) hospitalized lol

[velvet dagger]

Honestly I kinda cracked the code for muggers

[wild lantern]

Real people play respectable brass instruments

[velvet dagger]

You just look them dead in the eye

And say no

And they will melt

[latent forge]

swiper no swiping

[velvet dagger]

Sample size 1 this works

[light needle]

There was some grocery store robbery or smth

[vivid halo]

if you just don't consent to a break and entry they can't do it

[limber perch]

i always cross through my neighbors backyard in the morning as a shortcut to get to my bus stop

and this one time he pulled his gun out

[velvet dagger]

Nah I'm not talking about consent

[light needle]

Where the person just ignored the robber and the,robber eventually left

[wild lantern]

Excuse me robbery is illegal.

[latent forge]

based

[light needle]

It was v funny

[velvet dagger]

No no doot dooter

[wild lantern]

Pls stop robbing me

[limber perch]

i stopped taking that shortcut

[velvet dagger]

Smh you guys clearly haven't heard my story

[latent forge]

why didnt u just ask him

[velvet dagger]

So

At some point

[limber perch]

he was like

[velvet dagger]

I was with my dad at Sam's club

[light needle]

I watched something like this lol

[limber perch]

“what is this brownie doing on my property at 7 am”

[velvet dagger]

We see this guy who looks exactly like Boris Johnson

[latent forge]

based and crudetounged

[velvet dagger]

And are like lul

Turns out he parked closer to the store than we did so before we get to our car we stop by him

And we're like yo

You look like Boris Johnson

[limber perch]

he died of parkinson’s last year

[blazing pawn]

nvm dami deserved to get robbed

[limber perch]

i had mixed feelings

[latent forge]

lol wdym

[blazing pawn]

Me

[velvet dagger]

"Who's that?"
"British politican"
"Are you British?"
"No we're Moroccan"
"Ah so are you Muslim?"
"Yeah"

[latent forge]

últimamente you didnt know jim well

[velvet dagger]

Turns out this guy is Bahai

[vivid halo]

like my parent's formally very safe neighborhood now has homeless wandering through it and breaking into cars and houses

[limber perch]

like sometimes he would forget he’s racist

[velvet dagger]

Which is this incredibly nutty offshoot of Islam

And he's preaching to us for hours

[light needle]

Lmaoo

[velvet dagger]

While we're talking

Someone drives up in a white pickup truck and has a face covering

Mumbles something we can't hear

We're like ?

He repeats himself

[sick burrow]

has a face covering
How respectful of him

[velvet dagger]

Again can't hear it

Come again?

At this point I kinda get close ish to him

And he pulls out this massive gun

And I'm just like

Fucking speak

Please

Pointing a gun at my chest does not fix the problem that you're whispering

[latent forge]

This in NA?

[velvet dagger]

And FINALLY I hear him

"Wallets"

[sick burrow]

I swear this server always has the best stories

[limber perch]

and then they got so close they kissed

[velvet dagger]

So I'm like ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that explains the gun

[vivid halo]

and he said: "what the fuck did you say about me you little bitch I'll have you know I graduated at the top of my class

[velvet dagger]

I turn to my dad and the other guy like yeah he wants our wallets

Now remember how I said the Bahai guy parked closer to the store than us?

Well

We didn't unpack our groceries yet

[vivid halo]

[velvet dagger]

So my dad's leaning on a shopping cart packed

And dead in the eye says to him "Sorry we can't help you"

And the fucker just leaves

[vivid halo]

maybe he just wanted food 😦

[velvet dagger]

I think he even says "Thanks"

[neat lintel]

once again, boris johnson indirectly yet inevitably makes someone else’s life worse

[light needle]

Wtfff

[vivid halo]

how kind

[latent forge]

you miss 100 of the shots you dont take

[velvet dagger]

Lmao Yohan

But yeah so

From this I can confirm

That refusing muggers just works

[wild lantern]

Maybe it was his first time?

[neat lintel]

This advice equally applies to the dad and the robber

[velvet dagger]

It probably was

He was melting under the pressure, sweaty as shit

[latent forge]

lol dont try it ull just get murked

[sick burrow]

Dami that reminds me of that old greentext

[wild lantern]

Tbh you guys are probably the bad guys in this story for not being more supportive.

[light needle]

Tbh if I was a mugger I’d just be surprised by the courage and,let y’all go

[wild lantern]

Same

[velvet dagger]

My dad is very unfazed by the stuff

Early 90s when he was in NY he had to deal with shit all the time

And uh

Despite the fact that now he's the most mellow person I have ever met

[velvet dagger]

Apparently his solution to thieves back in the day was to beat the living shit out of them

[wild lantern]

I'd just give them my wallet. There's no cash in it.

[latent forge]

ur dad is just lucky

[light needle]

Chad dad

[velvet dagger]

He told me some crazy stories

He was working in a flower shop once

And this guy was stealing a lot

Finally caught him

[neat lintel]

This probably confused the other guy so much that he just let them go

[vivid halo]

of the many things Islam has correct, amputating the hands of thieves is one of them

[velvet dagger]

Beat him up so hard that he started coming to my dad and telling him about other thieves

[neat lintel]

[wild lantern]

Like, sure you want some old cards I'm gonna cancel after you leave? Aite.

[velvet dagger]

In another story my dad actually had to go to court

But the guy confessed to being a thief so they were like nah you chill

It was in NJ

[neat lintel]

This is why I’m glad my family is tall
Nobody tries to rob my dad, because he’s a 6’10” Slavic man

[light needle]

Vigilante justice moment

Oh it’s nj explains a lot lolol

[velvet dagger]

This one guy was a huge problem for him and his partner

He knew their car

So when they'd leave their business

He'd sneak in

One day they rent a different van to catch him in the act

And they finally catch him and just fuck him up

[vivid halo]

[velvet dagger]

Like "He would've been hospitalized if the police didn't interfere" fuck him up

[vivid halo]

based

[velvet dagger]

They had to write the report and they were like yeah honestly people like that need a beating, apparently excluded some details

Next day in court turns out the guy confessed that he was stealing

And they the court is like alright u good fam peace

Those stories still kinda throw me off because I've almost never heard this guy raise his voice lol

But 🤷

After that muggin at Sam's the Bahai guy kept preaching until we finally shook him off

And my dad was just like

Yeah that guy scares me

[light needle]

Lmaooo

[velvet dagger]

White people piss themselves at the sight of a gun

I have no idea how this guy kept his composure

He's not a normal person

[light needle]

To be fair most@ppl do not@just white lol

[thorn brook]

[latent forge]

debatable

[velvet dagger]

Honestly I probably only kept composure since I was confused lol

[latent forge]

ive seen lots of people do dumb shit with guns and not fear anything

people like to act tough until they got shot too

ive only seen someone get shot twice though

[sick burrow]

only

[velvet dagger]

Like

[sick burrow]

How many muggers are actually willing to shoot someone though

[latent forge]

i live in bronx so shootouts and these moments happen frequently where i live

[velvet dagger]

Maybe but you see this borderline machine gun in your face

[latent forge]

esp at playgrounds

[velvet dagger]

You're not usually gonna be like

"Well statistically..."

But I was just confused like

What

My dad at least remembers it as a machine gun but I thought it was just a very large pistol

[latent forge]

lol

terrible interpretation

[light needle]

How tf did a mugger get a machine gun

Feels like something for higher class criminals

[velvet dagger]

I don't think it was one

[latent forge]

ppl have AVs and AKs where i live

idk how

[velvet dagger]

I thought it was something like this

[light needle]

I mean still wouldn’t expect a mere mugger to have one

P expensive smh

[velvet dagger]

My dad might've meant like

Idk small semi auto or smth

[wispy dune]

big iron robbing you

[velvet dagger]

We're not well-versed in gun terminology

[sick burrow]

I do wonder what would happen on average if you stand your ground to a mugger

[velvet dagger]

I would wager they just outlast you

[light needle]

Don’t use stand ur ground law against muggers

[velvet dagger]

Like

Obviously they'd rather not kill you

[light needle]

A 100 buck ain’t worth anyone’s life

[velvet dagger]

Because now they have a more serious problem

[sick burrow]

How many times the guy just walks away, how many times he tries to press it more, how many times you actually get hurt

[velvet dagger]

But they could like

[vivid halo]

not worth yours, but it is worth theirs

[velvet dagger]

Shoot your legs or smth

nG sure but the point is you're more likely the one to get fucked lol

[light needle]

Kek true

[vivid halo]

the chad move is to empty your wallet, and then just shoot them as they're walking away

[sick burrow]

Just deadpan tell them if they don't put the gun away you'll jump on them

Stand your ground laws or not

[velvet dagger]

Absolutely not Faye

[light needle]

Ok see why risk it

Again this is worth absolutely no ones life

[velvet dagger]

Muggers would rather not kill you and you might be able to get away with a lot of shit

[vivid halo]

yea it's kinda a big risk

[light needle]

To lose a 100 buck

[velvet dagger]

But once you're a threat?

Now they're way more willing to kill you

[sick burrow]

It depends how much you value your life

[light needle]

Like I’d feel bad if I killed the mugger over something I earn in like 2 hrs

[vivid halo]

I agree, it's not worth the legal stuff you have to deal with afterwards

[light needle]

Mugger is still a person thonk

[vivid halo]

sure, but like

if someone initiates force

[velvet dagger]

If the mugger was willing to pull through over it I'd feel less remorse

[vivid halo]

to take your property

they get what they get

[latent forge]

just give them everything?

[light needle]

Sure you have a right to defend but doesn’t mean I feel good that someone’s life got lost

[velvet dagger]

"pull through" = they're willing to kill you to get your property

[latent forge]

i always have my card frozen anyways

[vivid halo]

I wouldn't feel great about it but like

I wouldn't feel super bad either

[velvet dagger]

"I would feel great about it"

[vivid halo]

depending on the situation

[light needle]

Oof I think u typoed

[latent forge]

you say that but you wouldnt know

[light needle]

Was v concerned

[velvet dagger]

nG feels sadistic pleasure in killing muggers

[vivid halo]

oops typo lol

[velvet dagger]

Bit too late fam

[light needle]

Ng cancelled once again

[vivid halo]

lol

[velvet dagger]

I may or may not have already sent screenshots to every number theorist in North America

[vivid halo]

if someone broke into my house though

I would feel very little remorse over defending my property

[sick burrow]

It was quality indeed

[light needle]

Idk that’s wierd to me, like these were still people no matter how bad

Like they mostly aren’t that horrible people even ig

[velvet dagger]

Okay I read it

It's really good

Yeah that guy just rolled a 1 on intimidation

[vivid halo]

I think if someone breaks and enters a home they relinquish any expectation of safety on their part

[neat lintel]

forget about property, you're defending you

[vivid halo]

yea that too

[light needle]

I mean I agree sure

[narrow rock]

you forgot to add in the boris johnson detail

[light needle]

I’m talking about the not feeling bad part

That’s what’s wierd to me thonk

[vivid halo]

I mean I'd feel a little bad

but I wouldn't feel like I did something unjustifiable

[sick burrow]

I wonder if there's an angle in just convincing the mugger you're insane and not worth the risk

[vivid halo]

is the difference

[velvet dagger]

Faye no

[narrow rock]

the mugger could know boris johnson

[light needle]

I would feel bad in the sense that I’d run my head through how the killing could have been avoided

[velvet dagger]

For almost all muggers

[light needle]

And generally feel guilty

[velvet dagger]

You just surrender your positions

[vivid halo]

it could be avoided if the person didn't break into your damn house lol

[sick burrow]

I mean yeah

[velvet dagger]

nG what he's saying is

Hmm I wonder if there was a way to subdue

[vivid halo]

I would feel bad about what kinds of circumstances would lead someone to do this, sure

[sick burrow]

But if you're trying to stand your ground anyways

[velvet dagger]

If the answer is "It was my life or his"

[light needle]

Yeah

[sick burrow]

Even though it's not smart

[velvet dagger]

Then like you know what fuck it

God forgives

I don't

[limber perch]

i’m just hoping to have a kid before a robber kills me

[vivid halo]

yea

[limber perch]

that way he can grow up to be batman

[light needle]

Forgiveness is a core part of my belief system tho

[velvet dagger]

I mean I phrased it hyperbolically but the point being like

If one of us is gonna die

[neat lintel]

If there was a thief in my house, I would not go to kill

[velvet dagger]

Or if this person's continued existence leads to the death of a loved one

[light needle]

Sure but I would keep running the scenario to see if anyone had to die

Ig

[velvet dagger]

Oh yeah that makes sense

[vivid halo]

sure

[velvet dagger]

If there's a way to subdue without killing

I'd rather not kill

[neat lintel]

I would defend myself, but I would definitely not aim to kill
I’m a tad influenced by the Levitical law as well, I suppose

[vivid halo]

right the issue though is that in the moment you have to make a decision, often on imperfect information, and usually leaning towards doing everything you can to protect yourself

[velvet dagger]

But sometimes any option other than the person's death puts me or a loved one at risk

In that case no remorse

[light needle]

No I agree ng but that doesn’t lessen the guilt for me ig

[vivid halo]

like if some teenager breaks into my house with a BB gun say

and I shoot them

and later realize shoot they didn't have a real gun

sucks for them I guess

I would not feel bad

[velvet dagger]

Hmmmm

I'd be upset that the situation went down the way it did

[vivid halo]

well sure

[velvet dagger]

Without feeling like I fucked up

[vivid halo]

but I wouldn't feel like

oh god I should have known better

[neat lintel]

Well, I’m thinking of this
“If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭22:2-3a ‭ESV‬‬

[light needle]

I guess it wouldn’t be productive to feel like that

But I would prob feel that

[velvet dagger]

What is "sun has risen on him"

Yeah lol

[vivid halo]

yea I mean I won't lie that thought would likely cross my mind

but based on the information I would likely have at that point in the situation

it would be a justifiable choice, even if it's not the best one if I had perfect information

[neat lintel]

If it’s night and you kill someone breaking in, you wouldn’t be held accountable, as you couldn’t see him clearly and thus can’t be held responsible for the murder. If it’s day, you can see him, and you would be held responsible for manslaughter or murder.

[velvet dagger]

I think it's hard on your conscience and it would be especially tough if it was easily resolvable

[vivid halo]

oh depending on the state you are VERY much held accountable lol

[velvet dagger]

But if you know that in the moment you're like

Oh shit

My wife might die

If I don't act

[light needle]

yeah the panic is understandable

[velvet dagger]

Then I think even psychologically it'll be easier to be okay with the situation

[neat lintel]

Well, yeah, this is the Levitical law, not American

[velvet dagger]

Like when you relive the memory you'll relive the fear this person put into you

And plus the person who was very willing to harm innocent people

Don't quite feel as bad for such folk

[light needle]

idk i dont think im an innocent person.

[vivid halo]

oh here's a hot moral question: is it justifiable for doctors to turn away COVID patients if they had the opportunity to get vaccinated and chose not to?

[crystal stone]

When you kill someone on self-defense in the US, (I'm no lawyer) but you have to have good reason to say that you were defending your life

This varies by state to state

[light needle]

lol nG that news thing

its so stupid

[velvet dagger]

nG I'd say if space is a concern maybe?

[crystal stone]

Some states have a stand your ground law

[light needle]

you are harming other ppl too

[crystal stone]

Which is pretty vague

[velvet dagger]

Like

[vivid halo]

so the headline there is misleading but yea it's bad

[light needle]

not just the covid person

[neat lintel]

In the Mosaic law, accidental manslaughter was usually dealt with by having the culprit confined to one of six cities until the current high priest died
However, if it was night, the person wouldn’t even have to do that.

[velvet dagger]

If you've got one hospital bed left

[vivid halo]

it's really frightening how many people are unironically suggesting that this would be an okay thing to do

[velvet dagger]

And you have a covid guy who didn't vaccinate come at the same time as a drunk driving victim

[light needle]

and like even if u werent, like these ppl are a victim of propoganda and the larger system as a whole really

[neat lintel]

*if it was night and you killed a thief breaking into your home

[light needle]

like they have responsibility ofc but they are still victims and they deserve treatment lol

[vivid halo]

yea I mean you have to make those decisions based on urgency of care, not what the person did to get themselves into that situation

[crystal stone]

Yeah, it also goes against many ethical oaths that doctors take

[velvet dagger]

I'm presuming both people are like

[light needle]

yeah from a bioethics pov like

its a hard one

[velvet dagger]

Gonna end up dead in the morning

Not oh my arm is broken vs I need a tube

[light needle]

its equivalent to some "treat criminal or innocent person" delimmas

[vivid halo]

yea

I mean at the end of the day when you're actually dealing with capacity issues these kinds of decisions have to be made and there's no good way to make them unfortunately

[velvet dagger]

If someone has to go I might be more willing to save the person who just got fucked rather than someone who threw away his own life

But if I've got space I'm not gonna be like

Nah fuck u

[light needle]

yeah like i cannot blame anyone making any choice in this situation

if its like really a 1 bed 2 ppl situation

[vivid halo]

what's concerning is the number of people that are suggesting this as a sort of punitive rage against the unvaccinated

[light needle]

yeah thats just bad lol

same ppl support criminal reform

[neat lintel]

Oh. Idk the exact justification (I’ve a couple ideas), but I’d need to do a bit of research before I could give you the best possible answer

[vivid halo]

George Takei recently tweeted something to this effect, like "hospitals should just refuse care to the unvaccinated and maybe it would make people think twice about not getting the shot"

which is just INSANE

[neat lintel]

Shouldn’t you judge between “whoever needs the bed more” rather than over vaccination status

[vivid halo]

yea

[velvet dagger]

That's... not gonna work lol

[odd narwhal]

George takei has some of the worst takes

[light needle]

i mean tbh that sounds like venting more than

an actual take?

maybe im wrong lol

[neat lintel]

Whatever, I don’t know crap about anything

[velvet dagger]

So I mean, if I'm gonna try to be maximally charitable

[light needle]

like when i say "i wish all the boomers would die" or smth

i dont actually wish that lol

[blazing pawn]

...no?

[velvet dagger]

Meh I can't be very charitable to this guy at all

[crystal stone]

I'm also concerned with the fact that the state forcing medical decisions on you against your will. Ok, the covid-19 vaccine has been mostly safe, and pretty effective. But that's not always the case, and we still don't know the longer term consequences of these vaccines. Hopefully there aren't any but

[vivid halo]

the other variant of this that I've seen a lot lately is people saying "well hospitals should still offer care to the unvaccinated, but they should just be denied insurance benefits"

[crystal stone]

A brief look at the history of the US gov't conducting medical experiments on slaves and immigrants

[velvet dagger]

Hmmmm

[light needle]

same ppl

who support

medicare reform

[crystal stone]

Is enough to justify a distrust in government made medical decisions

[light needle]

[velvet dagger]

How do insurance companies handle smokers?

[vivid halo]

yea exactly like

I guess it makes your premiums go up on average

but no doctor is going to be like "oh lung cancer? well tough shit buddy"

[velvet dagger]

I mean so I guess there is a relevant empirical question here

How many people in the US right now are truly unable to get vaccinated?

They would if they could

But they can't because of medical condition

[light needle]

41%, bc of brain disease known as trump.

[velvet dagger]

So they rely on herd immunity

[latent forge]

drumpf

[vivid halo]

within major urban centers where fast spread is a major concern, practically nobody

[latent forge]

herd immunity is a cope atm because delta

[vivid halo]

the places where people genuinely can't get vaccines are also so sparsely populated that spread is less of a risk

[latent forge]

but its still worthwhile

[velvet dagger]

Yeah like

[vivid halo]

orange man bad

[light needle]

yes.

[crystal stone]

But that doesn't mean there aren't genuine concerns for not wanting to get a covid-19 vaccine. One of my friends fainted after getting vaxx'd

[limber perch]

brain cancer? I told you to stop doing analysis

[crystal stone]

who knows why he fainted

[reef carbon]

fucking your mom is also a cope

[latent forge]

i have a similar story

[velvet dagger]

If 10% of the population was immunocompromised in a way that their safety relied on others getting vaccinated

[crystal stone]

He fell on his head and got a concussion

[latent forge]

😓

[vivid halo]

I mean I know some people that had some very serious reactions to the first dose and were told by their doctors to absolutely not get a second

but those cases are like

[reef carbon]

concuss on DN

[vivid halo]

fairly rare in the grand scheme of things

[velvet dagger]

Then I'd argue not getting the vaccine or quarantining hard is like

[reef carbon]

how rare per 100k, nG?

[light needle]

ppl will take the stupidest edge case and think" whats more concerning, the virus fucking up the country for like a year or this 2 people who fainted"

[latent forge]

i fainted second dose pfizer and my friend got j and j and fainted

[crystal stone]

I guess I just think people can make their own medical decisions for themselves with their doctor privately

[velvet dagger]

Idk some finite number of steps short of involuntary manslaughter

[latent forge]

first time i felt fatigued af

[crystal stone]

And I'm not a fan of state sponsored medical advice in general

[blazing pawn]

tfw the orange man is bad

[reef carbon]

i got sputnik v and felt Shitty the day after, both shots

[light needle]

get over it. you feeling a bit dizzy is not an issue

ppl dying over covid is

[reef carbon]

but then afterwards i was fine

[latent forge]

lol not dizzy

[vivid halo]

yea that's minor

[latent forge]

hospitalized because i hit my head hard

[velvet dagger]

Like, on the extreme end

[light needle]

then lie in a bed lol

[velvet dagger]

If everyone who wants to get vaccinated can do so safely

[reef carbon]

you stay at home and let yourself rest lol

[velvet dagger]

I genuinely don't give a shit

[latent forge]

i was at home lol

[velvet dagger]

If people decide not to vaccinate

Like

[crystal stone]

On the extreme end of things in Mainland China where they lock you in your apartment and if you break the tape then the cops will come beat you up

[latent forge]

same shit happened to my friend

[velvet dagger]

I hope you do for your own sake

[light needle]

ppl just need an excuse to not get vaccineted

[velvet dagger]

But I'm not your boss

[crystal stone]

And you're denied access to food and water

For days on end

[velvet dagger]

You wanna put yourself at risk, you don't answer to me

[light needle]

thats extreme

[neat lintel]

I do, because there are some folks who can’t (like chemo patients) who need the protection of herd immunity

[velvet dagger]

You answer to your loved ones

[light needle]

just force a vaccine into them

no need to lock em up

[crystal stone]

There is a genuine concern over how much power you give the state during pandemics

[velvet dagger]

Yeah Tesseract my point here is

[vivid halo]

serious reactions like anaphylaxis is maybe around 2 to 5 per million, but less life threatening allergic reactions are more common

[blazing pawn]

It reduces transmission iirc

[latent forge]

department of buildings showed its corruption during this pandemic

[neat lintel]

There is a genuine concern over how much power you give the state during pandemics

[velvet dagger]

If it were the case that everyone who cares gets it, then at that point as far as I'm concerned every person answers to himself

[vivid halo]

it reduces transmission, but in general imperfect vaccines speed up the development of new strains

[velvet dagger]

If on the other end there's a ton of people who rely on herd immunity

[crystal stone]

Yeah, but I think it becomes heightened during pandemics because they'll use the pandemic as an excuse to seem power or policy for emergency use, and keep that in-stated well after the pandemic is over

[neat lintel]

Nah, limited government is nice, that’s all

[crystal stone]

to seize*

[velvet dagger]

Then failing to take the vaccine arguably means you have other people's blood on your hands

So it's a sliding scale

[vivid halo]

yes

[light needle]

delta

[velvet dagger]

It seems we're much closer to the former than the latter case

[vivid halo]

it's not enough of a reason not to vaccinate by any means

but there is still some risk

[crystal stone]

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/leaky-vaccines-can-produce-stronger-versions-of-viruses-072715

[light needle]

do they have in person classes in yalls college

[vivid halo]

yup, no mask mandate either lol

[velvet dagger]

Where most people who want to vaccinate can do so safely. In which case my overall take is something like

[light needle]

oof

yeah theres a mask mandate

that no one follows

[velvet dagger]

I'm fine with putting moderately heavy restrictions on people who do not vaccinate

[vivid halo]

there's fairly large pressure to get the mask mandate going but I don't know how much it would realistically fix

[velvet dagger]

e.g. UW Madison has all unvaccinated students test weekly

[sharp mulch]

Yeah in person classes + mask mandate + vaccine mandate

[light needle]

one of my prof is a chad and moved it online tho

[vivid halo]

I am glad that classes are in person

[neat lintel]

My school recently applied a mask mandate to everyone

[crystal stone]

I have to teach, since I'm at a private school we have mask mandates, air filters, vaccines, and I have my windows open

but it's still not ideal

and I'm ok w/ myself being exposed, but I'm more worried about the students I teach and the employees I manage

[vivid halo]

unfortunately a mask mandate doesn't stop students from doing whatever the hell outside of class, and this is where most of the really fast spreading happens anyways

[neat lintel]

Heck, I got the vax in April
My sudden urge to buy seven Surface Pro 3s had nothing to do with this

[light needle]

delta is so sad, i really wanted like normal classes this sem

[vivid halo]

also masks hardly do anything unless you're wearing proper ones

[light needle]

ppl wearing a cloth

[crystal stone]

Yeah you need a full on n-95

[vivid halo]

cloth masks are basically just security theater at this point

and a form of politeness

they don't actually do anything

[crystal stone]

Also you have to keep a clean shaven face

[light needle]

or the ppl who wear a mask but not over their noses

[crystal stone]

and regularly wash your hands, hair, etc.

[light needle]

[velvet dagger]

Right now if you choose not to vaccinate out of ignorance, I will not violate your bodily autonomy here because it turns out almost everyone who wants to keep safe from you can sorta do so (aka you're not borderline committing murder by not vaccinating), but I am fine with making your life inconvenient

[limber perch]

“I will not violate your bodily autonomy”

[light needle]

I will violate your bodily autonomy if you dont get vaccinated, been a while since aggravated assault

[crystal stone]

Does bodily autonomy extend to choosing what you wear?

[vivid halo]

I mean I've accepted that I will get sick at some point this semester, I've already had COVID before when it just got to the US, I would rather take getting sick again over another semester of isolation

[light needle]

oof sad nG

[limber perch]

The flu does this every year

[neat lintel]

I’m not sure what the fuss is now, as the elderly are mostly vaccinated (who were the main impetus behind all this in the first place)

[limber perch]

do you still have your sense of smell

[vivid halo]

yea lol

[light needle]

im p upset cause covid started during my hs graduation and is still going. mfw never had a normal college class

[vivid halo]

I don't think I have any long term effects

[limber perch]

has your hairline done any noticeable receding?

[vivid halo]

no

[limber perch]

ok good

[neat lintel]

However, I admit ignorance in epidemiology, so

[sharp mulch]

What an interesting question

Has your hairline done any noticeable receding

[vivid halo]

I mean the only thing I've noticed is some cognitive impairment but I only started noticing that once I was in lockdown for a while and not seeing people for weeks at a time

[neat lintel]

I believe the vaccine is 86% effective instead of 95% for Delta, if memory serves

[vivid halo]

wonder why

[light needle]

depression moment

[limber perch]

it’s in important determinant

[light needle]

[vivid halo]

yea literally

[crystal stone]

are you completely isolated from everyone nG?

[vivid halo]

I mean not now, since we have in person classes again

but I live alone yes

[crystal stone]

RIP

[vivid halo]

and was not seeing people for long periods of time

super fun

[light needle]

cdc apperantly suggests 3rd dose for ppl with bad immune systems

[crystal stone]

That must've been rough

[sharp mulch]

Lord of the Mysteries

[vivid halo]

yea I became pretty alcoholic during that period, also wonder why

[neat lintel]

Complete isolation is one of the only things that truly gives me pause, as it has right proper screwed me up in the past

[sharp mulch]

Glory

[clever knot]

Do most states still have the mask mandates ? I know schools can still impose it so i guess it doesn't exactly matter and other business maybe

[sharp mulch]

No

Hurry up and get honortable/trusted

[neat lintel]

Some states have made it illegal to enforce mask mandates

[sharp mulch]

So that you can see the thread that manan and I have

Of content

[neat lintel]

idk if I’ll ever be trusted here
I’m just not here enough

[limber perch]

i wonder if the number of “can i have a hug” people has gone down since covid started

[velvet dagger]

Let's go in voice

[crystal stone]

uh oh

[light needle]

ok

[velvet dagger]

Look Moonbears it's just like

[sick burrow]

Is it really unsafe to go back to schools

[velvet dagger]

I enjoy dominating the discussion

[sick burrow]

Even if everyone is fully vaccinated

[velvet dagger]

And over voice it's easy for me to do that

[vivid halo]

if you're vaccinated no, it's fairly safe all things considered

[sick burrow]

And also not idiots

[velvet dagger]

So yeah

[vivid halo]

what's still unsafe is like

[velvet dagger]

You guys are joining me in voice